Cameron Costa (2:02)

For Bitcoin, I'm CNBC producer Cameron Costa. Squakpod reports from Davos. 2026. Binance founder CZ begins right now. A lot of interesting people come to the World Economic Forum in Davos and this year one attendee was Changpeng Zhao, known as cz. He founded and once led the world's largest crypto exchange, Binance. CZ stepped down in 2023 after pleading guilty to enabling money laundering while at the helm of Binance. He was sentenced to four months in prison, which he served in 2024. Federal prosecutors, though, were pushing for three years in prison. In 2025, President Trump pardoned Sisi. Press Secretary Caroline Levitt put the pardon in context with what she referred to as a war on cryptocurrency in the Biden administration. The pardon caused a lot of waves. Before the announcement, Binance had hired a lobbyist. Friends with Donald Trump Jr. And the wall Street Journal reported that Binance supported a platform for the Trump family's own crypto venture. In a rare and exclusive interview in Davos, the entirety of which you will only hear on this very podcast, Andrew Ross Sorkin spoke to cz.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:38)

You're here in Davos. How many times you've been here?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (3:42)

First time.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:42)

This is the first time?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (3:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:44)

And you were pardoned now? Three months ago.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (3:47)

Three months ago, October 20th. October 20th, yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:50)

So what have the last three months been like for you?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (3:52)

Much more freedom, much more liberated. So, yeah, I think it's just psychologically, it's like a burden that's just lifted. So I feel much more. I was a free man before, but with a felon status. But now I'm a real freeman.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:06)

And what are you doing with your time?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (4:09)

I'm still pretty busy. It's getting busier. Well, I spent time working on this free education platform called Giggle Academy. I work with an investment team called Easy Labs. I mentor a number of funders in the BNB chain ecosystem space. So we're minority investors. I just mentor them. I also spent quite a lot of time talking with about a dozen governments about how to regulate crypto, how to do tokenization, how to do stablecoins. So just crypto advisory work.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:43)

And how many of your conversations start with, so what was it like to be in prison and what was it like to be pardoned?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (4:49)

It's definitely a conversation starter. People are very curious about the experience. Most people don't start with that. Most people, they small talk for a little while because starting with that, some people, I don't get offended, but some people who have been to prison may get offended.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:04)

Well, I'm gonna go straight there. I want to know, though, what was it like?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (5:08)

It's not fun. The movies are pretty accurate. I wrote it in my book. Upcoming book. You know, you get, my first roommate is a double murderer, but he's been there for like 12 years. He still have 18 years to go. And then, you know, he got moved to a lower security prison. Nice guy, but, you know, it's not a good experience.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:30)

Did you expect this to happen?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (5:32)

No, no. Absolutely not. When I went there, my knowledge from all my legal team was no one in US History has ever went to jail for a single violation of a banking secrecy act, which is a registration failure. It's a still serious Crime, offense, but no one went to jail. So just based on that, I thought, you know, American go by president precedents. And if we go by that, I should be like, I think the maximum people got. Most bank CEOs just get a deferred prosecution agreement, dpa. I think Arthur Hayes, the other crypto, the Bitmax founder, he got six months home confinement. That's the most severe one in US History for a single offense. So I thought I might get a home confinement for six months or 12 months, and I'd just be home on computer. That I can handle.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:20)

Do you remember the first day?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (6:22)

Yeah, the first day was pretty brutal. So you go in, they strip search you, you strip naked, you show your hands, show your back, the back of your hands, show your ears, open your mouth, show your tongue, lift your balls, flip over, spread your butt cheeks, cough three times, that whole thing.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:38)

And how did you deal with that emotionally?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (6:42)

I'm not usually very emotionally stable. So I just thought, you know, at four months, I just got to get through it. Right. So you won't be fun, but I'll just get through it. So I was like, okay, just another day.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:53)

And what was the pardon process like?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (6:56)

It was actually. I still don't know what the process is. So my understanding is, you know, you have a lawyer that meets a petition.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:03)

Right. But did you. When did you even think to yourself there was even a possibility that you could try to seek a pardon?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (7:10)

Interestingly. So it was around March 2005 that I. It was actually all the media that says I might be trying to get a pardon. If all the media like Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, New York Times are saying that I should be getting a pardon.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:25)

This was before you were even thinking about getting a pardon?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (7:28)

Well, the pardon topic came up even before that, but I didn't apply, right. So I got out in October 2024. So. So by all the way up until March 2025, Trump was elected in November, and then he got into office in January. I didn't apply. And then it was. I think it was in March. There was quite a lot of articles associating Trump, me, crypto, even some Abu Dhabi stuff like maybe I should apply. So I asked my lawyers to submit a petition, and then it's like a black box. I don't know what the process is. I still don't.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:00)

But I imagine there's. I mean, everybody thinks that there's got to be maneuvering around the edges, people trying to whisper to certain people to try to get in front of the president, maybe to get through his family or, you know, Eric Trump or some of his sons and other things, not.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (8:15)

That I know of. I think like people. What people? There's a lot of people giving me a lot of suggestions, but I don't think any of the suggestions have actually worked. The people. The people suggest the most is getting in front of Trump yourself.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:27)

Right.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (8:27)

If Trump sees you. President Trump is like a guy that goes by his intuition, but I never got in front of Trump, so I just waited and waited and waited and then suddenly happened. Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:39)

Have you had the chance to talk to him?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (8:41)

No, not yet. The closest I got to him was today when he was doing the Board of Peace session. I was in the audience. You know, I was a little. No, I was about 30, 40ft away from him. Never talked to him. Never. Never shook hands, never. But now I've met him kind of in person, but, you know, stage audience type of relationship.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:00)

Would you like to say something to him, if you could?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (9:03)

I want to express my appreciation to him, obviously. Yeah, I would love to. Yeah. I'm super appreciative of the pardon I got.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:12)

As you know, there's been a lot of questions about the pardon and the connection between Binance and the Trumps and what that looks like. Can you speak to that?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (9:23)

Based on my knowledge, there's really no connection. I mean, I think the only thing is the Trump families are in crypto.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:31)

Right.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (9:32)

Binance is a large crypto player, and the President Trump's administration is pro crypto, and that helps all the businesses in crypto. That's just good for the crypto industry and good for America as well.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:43)

I think the connection, though, if I'm wrong, was this idea of World Liberty Financial. Right. Because that's what they was used in terms of connecting into MGX and the connection with Binance.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (9:56)

Yeah, quite a lot. Okay. Yeah. Maybe you can be more precise. What do you think is wrong with that? Precisely. Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (10:02)

I think that the selection of those partners unto themselves is what has raised the question about whether the family was therefore supportive of the pardon.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (10:15)

Okay. So this is my basic understanding of the different pieces. There's a lot of media saying that there's some deal in place to get me the pardon. As far as I know, that does not exist at all. Number two is there were quite a lot of inaccurate descriptions about MGX invest in binance. They invested US$2 billion equivalent in stablecoins, and they choose the World Liberty Finance USD 1 stablecoin, and we are a crypto exchange. When I do business with people, I Tell people, look, you can pay me almost any kind of major crypto that have good liquidity that we can convert. So if it's a stablecoin with good banking support, it's a legit stablecoin, I will accept it. MGX is the investor. They choose to use USD 1. My request to them was, they pay us in crypto. I don't want to deal with banks, really. So they said, well, can we pay you in stablecoins? I was fine. And then they say, USD 1 fine. So that was the whole process. Many people misconstrue that. That's just one transaction, which I take. I don't have to hold that $2 billion. I can convert it at any time. And I have.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:24)

You have?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (11:25)

I have.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:25)

So it was converted almost immediately?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (11:27)

No, we convert portions over time. But many media says that's a $2 billion investment into USD1 or, you know, or, or worldly finance. That's completely wrong. If I accept like $100 of US dollars in payments, that's not me investing $100 in. I don't know what entity. Right. It's a stable coin. It's just a currency for payment. Just because I accepted that, it doesn't mean I invest in an issuer of that. So there's a lot of mischaracterizations of that. So there's no business relationships whatsoever.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:05)

So now that you've been through this experience, there have been questions about whether someone like Sam Bankman Fried should be pardoned. What do you think, given what you know about that case and also what you know about your own case?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (12:17)

I cannot speak to his case, to be honest. Many people think, you know, I know his case, but I actually don't. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a judge. I think we'll leave that to the, to the legal system. Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:28)

Did you watch his case play out? Because of course you were this other character in that story, which is also.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (12:34)

A unfair or inaccurate characterization. I think I did watch it. I was. At some point there were some interactions between me and Sam Bankman Fried, but I didn't do much at all. And I don't know what's going on over there. At one point, I think we did sign an AOI, so that SBF calls me, right? Says, well, they're like for 10 minutes just sort of going around, but eventually he tells, look, will we be interested in buying FTX outright? It's like, well, we'll take a look. And we sign an aoi. We'll take a look. But then in the process, his legal counsel quit, like, dropped out from the group. So within 24 hours, we said, look, at this point, we can't, at the time, my gulf, we cannot believe whatever number that's in the data room. Right. So if we don't have that level of trust, then this deal count, like, we don't know what we're looking at.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (13:32)

The speculation, I think was also though, that you may have known about some of the balance sheet issues that the company had and potentially helped expose some of those.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (13:43)

No, I did not. I absolutely did not. Before that went bankrupt, like maybe a year and a half, two years ago, we were one of the shareholders. But because there's competitive business relationships, I never asked for their financial statements. So I don't know what their financials are. It was until like, I think it was until like early November 2022, when CoinDesk reported an article saying that they might be insolvent. I still don't know what's going on. Right. But. Yeah, but that we kind of unfolded even when it was unfolded, even, even today. I don't know what that balanced looks like. Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (14:17)

You used to own a majority stake in Binance.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (14:21)

Well, I'm a large shareholder.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (14:23)

90%.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (14:23)

No, no, no, that number is wrong.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (14:25)

So can you tell us what the number is?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (14:26)

I actually don't know what the exact number is on top of my head because there are different legal entities, etc. So I actually don't know what that exact number is.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (14:34)

So long term, can you have a real role inside of Binance? What happens now?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (14:39)

I mean, based on my understanding, technically I got a full unconditional pardon from President Trump. So restrictions on me are completely lifted. I don't know what other restrictions there are potentially in other parts of the Binance company or Binance centralized exchange or I don't know. But I haven't really needed to go back. I didn't really want to. I thought it was a pretty good way for me to step down. Away from Binance after seven years at the time was very painful. I didn't like it. But after, you know, you get used to it. I don't think it's good for me to go back. I think we should leave room for other strong leaders to grow.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (15:15)

How involved are you in? Just the strategy and plans for Binance.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (15:20)

Are active, not much at all. So they have two capable CEOs and the team's pretty strong. I was away for basically two years and the market share increased. The company didn't lose users, it grew So I just thought, look, they don't need a backseat driver today. So I'm still a shareholder. So. And even when, even before I was pardoned, my shareholder rights were not impacted through the plea agreement. So I'm just a pretty passive shareholder. And today, when I want to give them advice, I just write it on Twitter.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (15:59)

I was going to tell you. The CEO of Ripple recently said that he thinks that Binance is going to try to return to the United States. Do you expect that?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (16:06)

Well, Binance always had a. Well, Binance always had a Binance US which is a separate entity. Separate, separate company. They've always been in the U.S. they never died. Their business dropped quite a lot because of the SEC lawsuit, but now the SEC lawsuit against them and me, the new SEC dropped it with prejudice, meaning that cannot bring back again. So they're still operating there. The business got destroyed. They lost the banking channels in 2023 after the SEC lawsuit, but now they got, I believe they got a banking channel back and I fully believe they want to be a active business platform again. They have a huge cost fee advantage. Their cost structure is much, much lower than the other platforms in the US So they can offer much, much lower fees.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (16:56)

So we just had Brian Armstrong here earlier in the week. How do you think about Binance and a Coinbase today?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (17:04)

Today, I think Coinbase predominantly in the US There are less prominent outside of the US And Binance is the reverse. Binance is in the other 80% of the GDP globally and Binance US is quite small. I think over time there will be some like, you know, overflow and competition overlap. I thought I saw Brian Armstrong yesterday in person. We had a chat and, you know.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (17:26)

Do you guys know each other very well?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (17:28)

Not very well. I met him maybe like two, three times over their last, last 10 years. But, you know, we see each other on social media all the time. We kind of know of each other. You know, I think the space has room for more than one exchange and in fact, it'll be really bad if there's only one exchange. There should be multiple exchanges in the space. Different people will eventually do things slightly differently. Competition will be good for the consumers, the price will come down, the service will be better, and the space is big enough. We haven't really even touched.1% of the total potential for the industry.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (18:00)

What do you think about this market structure regulation piece? I don't know how much you followed that, but it seems like Brian Armstrong and parts of the industry actually came together just last week to say, hold on this isn't going to go the right way.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (18:13)

So number one is I don't know too much about it. I do read about it. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a U.S. i also don't understand the U.S. political landscape, regulatory landscape that well. So this is actually my point. The fact that Coinbase is carrying that much weight on that bill is kudos to them. They're actually carrying that for the industry. Hopefully they're carrying that for all of the industry, not just us players. So that's an example where they are doing where they're strong in and we're kind of, the industry is waiting for them, kind of looking to them to lead. I don't know anything about US regulations, I'm not an expert there. But Binance US may have some guys who are experts, but they may not have the influence that Coinbase has. So I think that's great. So I work with like a dozen governments outside of the U.S. busy with that. So yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (19:03)

Do you trade a lot of crypto these days?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (19:06)

No, no, I don't trade at all. I don't trade, I just, I hold bitcoins, I hold bnb, I don't do day trading, I don't buy and sell, I don't try to time the market. I'm just not good at that. Years ago, like 10, 20 years ago, I tried that, lost money, just figured I'm a developer, I build systems, I don't trade.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (19:24)

So do you have any thought though real quick on just like the price of bitcoin and where this is all headed? Do you think we're in a winter, a summer cycle? Are you with Cathie Wood who thinks it's going to turn into a million dollars a coin?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (19:37)

So whenever people ask that question, I always got to ask them what's the time frame you're looking at? If you're looking at today, tomorrow, on a daily basis, there's no way I can predict. If you look at a 5, 10 year horizon, it's very easy to predict we're going to go up. If you look at a one year horizon, which is like what the most common framework is, 2026, I'm not sure. I think I have very strong feelings that it will probably be a super cycle.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:03)

Be a super cycle?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (20:04)

2026. Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:05)

For Bitcoin.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (20:06)

For bitcoin.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:06)

And what super cycle to you means what?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (20:08)

Well, normally bitcoin follows four year cycles historically. If you look at historic data like every four years there's a all time high and then there's a there's a drop. But I think this year, given the US being so pro crypto and every other country is kind of following, I do think we will see this. We will probably break the four year cycle.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:27)

We got to go. But just on a personal level, if you could redo anything, given all that's happened in your life now and all the wildness of the last couple of years, what would have you done differently?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (20:38)

Oh, I would have blocked US users from day one.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:41)

That's the answer.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (20:42)

That's the day one.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:43)

What about some of the regulations in trying to abide by those regulations?

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (20:48)

Well, that's the main thing about the regulations. At the beginning when we started the tech platform, we had US users and I was based in Shanghai back then we're like a small technology startup, right? But it was like six years later we found out, oh well that is a violation of a banking secrecy act. If I had known that and now I know that if I start over again, I just like block you as user from day one and then I will have much less trouble.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (21:12)

Cz thank you.

Changpeng Zhao (CZ) (21:13)

Thank you for having me.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (21:14)

Thank you. Appreciate it.

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AT&T Business Wireless Employee (22:19)

Not every sale happens at the register before ATT Business Wireless, checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sale or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time.

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Sometimes at and T Business Wireless Connecting changes everything.

Cameron Costa (22:54)

Thank you for listening to this Special Squawk Pod Reports from Davos this is just one of our many iconic interviews at the World Economic Forum this year. Please follow Squawk Pod and check out that feed. We have episodes of all of our major interviews David beckham, President Trump, Amazon's Andy Jassy, leaders from Google's DeepMind, OpenAI and anthropic chock full of content from the Alps for your own snow day this weekend. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Squawk Pod is produced by me, Cameron Costa and Zach Valise. Katie Kramer has been in Davos with our anchors. And a big thanks to Julie Tras, our editor, for all the Davos episodes. Have a great day.

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