Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:13)

Joel, it's great to have you on the broadcast.

Joel Kaplan (3:15)

Great to be here. Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:16)

So we've been having this sort of running debate with all sorts of business leaders this morning, especially in the AI big tech, hyperscaler space, about the economics of it, about whether it all works, whether it all maths out. You're spending an extraordinary amount of money, but you're also doing it slightly differently, which is in some cases, you've actually partnered with others. And I'm thinking of Blue Owl and the like, terms of private credit so that you're not actually paying for all of it. When you're building some of these data centers, how are you thinking about it, and how do you think the way you're thinking about it may be different than some of the others?

Joel Kaplan (3:46)

Well, thanks, Andrew. I mean, the first thing is what we're trying to build, our ambition is to build personal superintelligence, which means putting superintelligence in the hands of everyone. We've got a platform that serves 3.5 billion people every day. So we have some real advantages there. And we are spending a lot of money to build the massive data center and power infrastructure necessary to bring that vision to fruition. And we're confident that with the right models and the right products, we're going to be able to build personal superintelligence. And.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:13)

But in terms of offsetting some of that cost, I mean, right now I think you were probably on the sort of edge of the envelope for doing it in terms of. In terms of the economics of doing it that way compared to some of the others.

Joel Kaplan (4:25)

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to get into too many of the details of the financing just to say we've got a strong core business that helps us fund and finance this infrastructure investment. And we're going to look at lots of different ways to bring the strategic capital to bear to make sure that we can fund that infrastructure going forward.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:41)

Where do you think matter is ultimately right now in the AI race? Which is to say we talk a lot about open air, we talk a lot about Google and Gemini. You can go down the list. But we don't talk yet at the same. With the same sort of cadence about Llama, which. Which is the model that you guys have been working on for a long time.

Joel Kaplan (5:01)

Yeah. So we bring a lot of advantages to the race. Like I said, we've got the 3.5 billion people using it. We've got a real lead on wearables, which we think is going to be the next computing technology that actually brings that personal superintelligence to bear. Because glasses, the partnership we have with Ray Ban and Oakley Glasses lets the AI see what you see, hear what you hear, talk to you throughout the day. So we think that's the right form factor to bring AI to people. And we've got some work to do to catch up on the frontier with our models. I think we're going to get there this year and then we're going to match that.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:34)

Is it the model or the other thing is distribution? Sorry, on just surface area. So you have amazing surface area, meaning I am as addicted, I hate to say it to the gram as the kids say as anybody. Same with WhatsApp. Same with, you know, people going to classic blue Facebook. Right. The question is how that ultimately translates into the place I go to to either change, chat with a bot or to do other things for me.

Joel Kaplan (5:58)

Yeah. So right now we already have a billion monthly active users using meta AI across our services. So we start with that advantage. Now we've got to bring the frontier models to bear and we got to release the products that make people want to come and use that as frequently as. As they need in their daily lives to make them more effective, more productive, and just make them enjoy the things that they're doing online.

Becky Quick (6:19)

Joel, how do you navigate the political headwinds that are coming out of Washington, coming out of the European Union, coming out of so many different places? Because it feels to me like businesses that get caught in the cross currents are facing much choppier waters than they were before.

Joel Kaplan (6:35)

Yeah, well, we've had the advantage that President Bush, excuse me, President Trump, since he came into office, has been really focused on maintaining American leadership in AI and making sure that we win the AI race against. Against China. And that means clearing away the barriers to innovation, whether that's data center and energy permitting, whether that's just making sure that we can make the investments with confidence that we need in this infrastructure. And so we've had that advantage and that's been a big support for us as we've made these investments.

Becky Quick (7:07)

Does it create problems, though, when he says things that irritate European leaders to the point where things have gotten pretty tense? Because you have a lot of business here too. And I thought for a while that the administration might be helping with some of those things to try and tamp back some of the over regulatory reach from the EU is That not the case.

Joel Kaplan (7:27)

And they've been a huge. Yeah, they've been a huge ally in pushing back on some of the discriminatory regulation that we've seen come out of Europe. And that's been very helpful to us and other American companies. You know, there have been lots of discussions about tariffs over the last year. So far, we've been able to manage and ensure that we can continue to grow our business and offer consumers and small businesses throughout Europe the advantages our platforms offer. And, you know, I'm optimistic that we'll be able to continue going forward.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:55)

Let me ask you a question. If you think about it like this, I would say, and I would say Facebook in particular, or Meta was always considered or tried to be, and I think a lot of companies tried to be, quote, neutral companies, globally neutral, not necessarily even thinking of themselves as American companies versus something else. They were global companies. They'd come here and they'd be global companies. And now there's such an emphasis on national champions. There's such an emphasis, at least in the United States, but I would say because maybe of what's happening in the U.S. they're national champions elsewhere, and therefore you see a splintering of all of it. How does Meta, which is a, hopefully global company, I imagine, for your purposes, work through that?

Joel Kaplan (8:31)

Well, we're an American company that serves the world, and we're an American company that's investing massively in AI and AI infrastructure. And we're aligned with the administration in the US that it's very important that we win this battle against China. It's the most critical battle that we'll have over the coming years for both our national and economic security. But that's a. That's a battle that not only the US but all of the Western democracies have a stake in. So we think it's really important that we progress on this together with our friends and allies around the world, because this.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:02)

This race is too splintering. We just had Ray Dalio on the broadcast, and he made the argument that basically the whole globe is effectively coming undone.

Joel Kaplan (9:09)

Well, so far, we're not really seeing that on the technology front, obviously, we've got a very serious competitor in China. We need to make sure that we invest the resources, that we clear away the regulatory burdens. That's why it's so important that President Trump has pushed to eliminate discriminatory burdens on AI development and. And other technology in Europe. We need to make sure that we're aligned and we're harmonized in the way that we approach this because this is a battle we have to win.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:35)

Joel, want to thank you for coming in. Thanks to see you, sir. Appreciate it. I'm betting on Joel.

Joel Kaplan (9:40)

Thanks, Joe.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:41)

You're welcome. I don't know how many. You know, we didn't even talk about Dina Powell. We can also bet on Dina World. It's the end of the world usually. How many times can the world end?

Cameron Costa (9:49)

Once.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:50)

Oh, only once, Right.

Joel Kaplan (9:51)

That week.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:52)

So we got that.

Joel Kaplan (9:53)

We got that going. That's right. Very excited about Dina joining us.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:56)

Thank you very much, Joel.

Joel Kaplan (10:03)

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Cameron Costa (11:39)

Thank you for listening to this special Squawkpod reports from Davos. You can catch so many other iconic interviews from the World Economic Forum if you follow Squawkpod. Wherever you're listening. An interview with President Trump, a conversation with Andy Jassy, even David Beckham. All those episodes await you. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin, usually from New York, and once a year from the Alps. Squawk Pod is produced by me, Cameron Costa and Zach Felici. Julie Tras is our editor. Have a great.

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