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Elon Musk’s Interview with The Economist & Lina Khan’s NYC Role 7/24/26
00:44:18
In a nearly 90 minute interview, SpaceX and Tesla CEO Elon Musk sat down with The Economist’s editor-in-chief Zanny Minton Beddoes. Beddoes shares her biggest takeaways from the conversation, including the most viral moments about AI regulation and Musk’s own relationship with the alt-right. Partnership for NYC President and CEO Steven Fulop discusses Mayor Mamdani’s appointment of former FTC Commissioner Lina Khan to lead the city’s Economic Development Corporation. He airs concerns about the appointment within the business community. Plus, Wall Street Journal reporter Gunjan Banerji discusses Wall Street’s rush to get first access to President Trump’s posts on Truth Social. CNBC’s Eamon Javers reports on the White House’s newest round of tariffs. Gunjan Banerji - 8:57 Zanny Minton Beddoes - 21:13 Steven Fulop - 36:15 In this episode: Gunjan Banerji, @gunjanJS Zanny Minton Beddoes, @zannymb Steven Fulop, @StevenFulop Andrew Ross Sorkin, @andrewrsorkin Melissa Lee, @MelissaLeeC...
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- [00:00]
Schwab Advertiser
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- [00:31]
AT&T Business Wireless Advertiser
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- [00:55]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
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- [01:01]
Eamon Javers
Bring in show music please.
- [01:05]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod, when Elon Musk went on the record, the world's richest man spoke to the Economist on tech, on politics, even his personal brand. We'll talk to the editor who did that interview, Zanny Minton Beddoes.
- [01:21]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
You guys had a lot of debate. I want to know how it ended.
- [01:23]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
We ended perfectly, Amitabh. I hope he'll talk to me again. We'll see. It was really interesting, but I think it was important to push back on these areas where I think it deserves being pushed back on because I just think it's not right what he's saying.
- [01:36]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Lina Khan made waves as head of the antitrust Federal Trade Commission during the Biden administration. Now she's got a new gig running economic development for Zorhan Mamdani's NYC CEO Whisperer Stephen Fulop of the business group Partnership for New York.
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Stephen Phillips
When you put people in prominent positions that aren't necessarily pro business, it sends a message to the business community that is mixed at best. And that's kind of where we are.
- [02:00]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Plus Trading on Truth Wall street firms are paying thousands a month to get a fast track to the president's posts on truth. Social Wall Street Journal reporter Gunjan Banerjee Nanoseconds matter.
- [02:11]
Gunjan Banerjee
We're talking billionths of a second can make a difference in terms of their profits or losses.
- [02:17]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
It is Friday. Finally, July 24th Squawk Pod begins right now.
- [02:22]
Eamon Javers
Stand Andrew by in 3, 2, 1, 2.
- [02:25]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Andrew, good morning. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC. We're live at the Nasdaq marketsite in Times Square. I'm Andrew Sorkin along with Melissa Lee. Hanging out. Joe and Becky are off on a summer, summer Friday. Is that what we're called? Thank you for coming in and hanging out with us at this, the pleasure this early hour, very early hour. President Trump hitting dozens of countries with new tariffs. It's all happening this morning. And Eamon Javors joins us from Washington, D.C. with the latest what's happening here.
- [02:54]
Eamon Javers
Yeah, good morning, Andrew. Just a few hours before those 10% global tariffs expired overnight, the White House announced a new round of tariffs that will effectively replace those worldwide duties with a new set of tariffs. Now these new tariffs are being imposed under section 301 of the Trade act of 1974. This is one of several trade authorities that the president has used. These tariffs took effect at 12:01am this morning. So they're just a couple of hours old. And they impose duties of 10 to 12.5% on 60 economies over what the US describes as forced labor practices. Now bear that in mind because that's going to be part of the controversy here. A senior administration official tells cnbc these section 301 tariffs will not stack on top of existing 232 tariffs. Now the announcement marks the administration's latest tariff action after suffering a major legal setback earlier this year when the Supreme Court largely struck down the President Trump's so called reciprocal tariffs. Andrew, this is all about this question of how can the president find tariffs around the world that he can use to replace those reciprocal tariffs. He had the temporary tariffs in place. Now he's leaning on this issue of forced labor. The critics are saying, look, this isn't really about forced labor. The president is not really particularly concerned about that issue. What he wants to do is have this blanket tariff regiment. And so you can expect that this will be challenged in court under those grounds.
- [04:24]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Okay, so who has standing to bring a case? How would this work? How long does this take? Sort of walk us through the next sort of set of dominoes.
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Eamon Javers
It takes a long time. And what we saw with the tariffs last time and the legal challenges, people who are impacted have standing to sue. So in this case, you know, somebody who is, is an importer who relied on some goods that are now being tariffed and this impacts their business. Those are the types of people you can see filing a suit. And so you can see lawyers going around gathering up some plaintiffs like that, looking for particularly sympathetic ones in order to make the case. And then, and then you bring that. And what we saw with the first round of tariffs is this takes a tremendously long time and you could go all the way to the Supreme Court again at some point, depending on how things go in the lower court. So this is not going away anytime soon. So if you are one of those people who has to pay this tariff this morning, you're going to have to pay it and then you're going to have to wait and see what happens in court and whether or not you get these tariff refunds. But we have seen companies getting these tariff refunds throughout the year for the last tariff regime that the president imposed. The administration feels this one is on much more solid ground because the legal, the statute is there in section 301. They've done all the preliminary investigations and everything you have to do under the statute to do it. The so this feels to them as something that's a lot more solid and therefore they can really use it as a foundation for this tariff overall sweeping tariff authority.
- [05:57]
Melissa Lee
And by the way, those tariff refunds don't make it back to the consumer if the consumer is going to be charged more to cover those tariff costs. We haven't seen that float back. But Eamonn, I'm wondering, you know, if we've heard from China. This makes for an interesting setup ahead of the Xi Trump summit later on this year because now the effect of tax rate on China is higher than it was before. It's north of 22% or so.
- [06:19]
Eamon Javers
Yeah. You know, Melissa, I have not seen any reaction from the Chinese side yet. That said, you know, it's very early in the morning and I haven't had a chance to scour all the media from China. So I don't know if we've seen a statement from them overnight. But, you know, the US China relationship is just under enormous strain. Just in the past week, you know, think about, you know, the tariffs here, but also you had the president accusing China of meddling in the election in 2020 that he lost. So this is a relationship where the president is really using China as a scapegoat for political and economic things going on in the country that he doesn't like. All of that pointing ahead to this September meeting here in Washington where we expect Xi Jinping to arrive. So, you know, does that trip continue? You know, we've had no indication that it's been canceled, but if it happens, it's going to happen under a whole new set of strains.
- [07:14]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Yep.
- [07:15]
Melissa Lee
Eamon. Thank you. Eamon Jabbers in Washington, a bipartisan pair of House lawmakers want AI companies to maintain the ability to shut down their models if things go wrong. The introduction of the AI Kill Switch act came just days after OpenAI disclosed that some of its models went rogue and access another company's proprietary systems. The bill would authorize the secretary of Homeland Security to issue a shutdown order of AI technology that could cause catastrophic harm. Firms that don't comply could face penalties as high as $20 million a day.
- [07:47]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
And a defense tech company, Andrew reportedly in talks now with investors for a new funding round that could value that company at $100 billion. Reuters saying there has been talk now of angel using a two stage process which would forced investors to commit a to a financing a second round effectively at a higher valuation that could occur within a year and involve angel meeting financial benchmarks. $5 billion funding round led by Thrive Capital Andreessen Horowitz two months ago valued Andrew at $61 billion. And I think if you look at the valuation of a Palantir, all of a sudden you'd say oh goodness.
- [08:23]
Melissa Lee
Or you can triangulate and go the other way and say Lockheed Martin is 131 billion.
- [08:28]
Schwab Advertiser
Right.
- [08:28]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
So that's also mind boggling some somebody is a little bit higher or lower than they should be. We'll see.
- [08:35]
Melissa Lee
The Wall Street Journal is reporting this week that Wall street firms are paying $100,000 a month to get a fast track to the president's posts on truth social. Wall Street Journal lead markets writer Gunjan Banerjee was one of the reporters working on this story. She's also CNBC contributor, joins us live this morning. So basically this is a fee that will go straight into a firm's black box. So they get it like milliseconds before.
- [08:58]
Gunjan Banerjee
Exactly. So this is going to be the very fastest way to get Trump's truth social posts. And in this business, for the high frequency traders, the types of firms that are subscribing to this data, nanoseconds matter. We're talking billionths of a second can make a difference in terms of their profits or losses. So they want to be the very first of these posts and make moves across stock markets, bond markets, debt derivatives markets.
- [09:22]
Melissa Lee
So is the advantage just because the company is saying that they are releasing everything at the same time so nobody's actually getting anything early. But these firms that sign up, they can theoretically they get at the same time, but they are better equipped to trade immediately off of that release, Is that the way to look at it?
- [09:39]
Gunjan Banerjee
Exactly. So they are saying that all these posts will be available once they become public. Right. But how you get the data is very important. And API is certainly going to be faster than say, me opening up social in the morning and then trying to trade off of the news. So one, this could shift the balance of power further towards Wall street and away from many Main street investors who might want to trade on this data. And there's entire Reddit boards dedicated to trading on Trump's Truth Social posts. But just zooming out a little bit, these HFT firms do everything in their power to get this data as quickly as possible, even tied to government dated releases. Think the labor market reports, you know, inflation data. A lot of them try to put their computers next to the government data, buildings around those reports to get it again nanoseconds faster. And that's a practice called co location. Right. They're also investing in, you know, the most expensive, fastest technology to get this data really fast and trade.
- [10:33]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
The distinction though, that we're not talking about here yet is that the President's putting this news out. And historically, when presidents or other federal officials have put news out, they also haven't owned the device with which people are going to pay to get the milliseconds of news ahead of time. Right?
- [10:56]
Gunjan Banerjee
That is a distinction. Yes.
- [10:57]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
That's the big distinction here. So yes, hedge funds do this all the time, but it typically elected officials are not. You know, we say that there's rules now in the White House that you can't use prediction markets to make money off of what you know before you know it. But truth Social is actually going to make money from what it knows before you know it. You could argue it already is to some degree because that's become an outlet for the President to begin with. Is that factored into any conversation you've had with anybody who's actually thinking about this?
- [11:31]
Gunjan Banerjee
It's really fascinating. When I was talking to trust traders this week, we started the conversation with commenting on how unprecedented this is.
- [11:39]
Melissa Lee
Right.
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Gunjan Banerjee
We haven't had a president who's, who's profiting from these payments before. But then they went on to say, look, we have to do this. We have no choice but to subscribe to this feed if we want to keep up with our competitors. And many of them said, hey, we're already doing it. We are already doing everything in our power to get this data.
- [11:57]
Melissa Lee
It's not up to them. I mean, they're playing by the rules that exist currently I mean, I get the outrage, but is there anything specific that prohibits this from happening? Is there anything that says that information that is, you know, shared by the government is in the public domain and so therefore cannot be profited on? I'm not, I don't know what the legal ambiguity.
- [12:17]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Well, the contention in this case is that the company that is the distributor of the information is also owned by the, by the elected official.
- [12:25]
Gunjan Banerjee
Right, Andrew, that's, that's a criticism that Democrats have had. Senator Warner of Virginia said this amounts to self dealing by the President. He said this criticism creates a two tiered system for, for market data. Elizabeth Warren has spoken out against it, so has Chuck Schumer. That is the exact criticism from.
- [12:41]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I just wonder whether there's any firm or individual who will actually bring a case because interestingly, in this instance, all of a sudden we always talk about who has standing, right.
- [12:53]
Melissa Lee
Who is harmed by this.
- [12:55]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
The, the, the investor who's watching us now, who, who historically had invested based on what they thought the President was saying, could argue now that they are harmed by this in a different way.
- [13:08]
Melissa Lee
Let's, let's play this out then. There are fees. There are feeds like data feeds from the NASDAQ and the NYSE that traders pay for as well. Yes, the Nasdaq and the nyse, the information that it's pricing information.
- [13:21]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Right.
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Melissa Lee
But they benefit from it.
- [13:22]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
But the Nasdaq, the question is whether the nasdaq, the Nasdaq and the New York Stock Exchange has no duty to a public citizen to do anything because they're not elected. There's nothing, there's no tuition, there's not a public official role in this. So that now we're into an emoluments clause. I mean, there's just questions about how this works. I mean, there was always a question about the Truth Social piece of it to begin with, except that that data historically was distributed both on Truth Social. It ended up on Twitter. It was, you could argue a different, There was a different thing happening when you're selling it directly. I just wonder whether there's a larger conversation that'll turn into potentially even a legal case. I don't know. I'm not suggesting there should be. I'm just suggesting that there's an interesting debate, at least that I keep hearing about. And I didn't know if that was something that you've heard about.
- [14:13]
Gunjan Banerjee
So to the person at home arguing, hey, I'm now at a disadvantage, I would argue they've already been at a disadvantage. Wall street has already been doing this. They have set up complex automated trading systems to screen for words like ceasefire, Iran, even terms like thank you for your attention to this matter, for sure. To act on this information as quickly as possible. They've already been doing this. To say that, you know, the person sitting at home has had an advantage or is on the same playing field as the Susquehanna, as the drws of the world, is not true.
- [14:43]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I'm not disagreeing. I. All I'm suggesting is that there's a distinction with the elected official element of this.
- [14:51]
Gunjan Banerjee
Yes.
- [14:52]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
That's the biggest change and we haven't
- [14:56]
Gunjan Banerjee
had that in modern history.
- [14:57]
AT&T Business Wireless Advertiser (Mobile POS)
Right.
- [14:58]
Gunjan Banerjee
And it's just, it's interesting. It's come up in my conversations with traders, but then it just goes back to we have no choice, like, their livelihoods depend on getting that data.
- [15:07]
Melissa Lee
It's up to them to be the ethical watchdog.
- [15:10]
Keith Landsford
I get it.
- [15:10]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
All I'm suggesting is if every senator, congressperson decided that they were setting up a special website where all their statements were available through their own companies, and the only way to get them would be to pay for them. If you wanted it early, I think that there you would imagine that people would raise their hand and say, there's something not right about what's happening here.
- [15:33]
Melissa Lee
Santoli and I last yesterday at 4 o' clock when we were discussing the story, we were saying, well, what if Cetcon set up their own, you know, direct feed? Because arguably Centcom would have very powerful tweets that impact the markets and use all that money to pay for the war. I mean, by the way, endless, like where this could be carried out, by the way.
- [15:52]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
No, no, but you just made a distinction that's for the public good. If you told me that centcom was
- [15:56]
Melissa Lee
doing this, you'd be fine with it.
- [15:58]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I don't know if I'd be fine with it, but if you said that centcom was doing this and the taxpayers were the beneficiary of it, then you'd
- [16:04]
Melissa Lee
be okay with it.
- [16:05]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I think there's a very different conversation. I think the conversation I'm trying to at least suggest isn't happening. It appears is that the, the benefit, the profit, is not to the taxpayer.
- [16:17]
Melissa Lee
Yeah, no, I agree with that.
- [16:18]
Gunjan Banerjee
There is an interesting backdrop here where President Trump is one of the largest owners of Trump Media. Right. He's one of the largest shareholders. The company has not done very well this year. Its stock is down more than 30%, and it's actually venturing into some interesting business areas in order to try to turn its business around. It decided to merge with a nuclear fusion company. This is a media company that's merging with a nuclear fusion company and advisors to the company told the Wall Street Journal recently that that was an attempt to turn its stock around. So they do view this as as a cash cow for the company. Certainly.
- [16:53]
Melissa Lee
Gunjan, Fascinating story. Thank you, thank you.
- [16:58]
Eamon Javers
Tease will be next.
- [16:59]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Coming up on Squawk Pod, the interview making the rounds in tech and beyond Elon Musk's change of heart on artificial intelligence, his willingness to work with his AI peers, his defense of who he calls normal people.
- [17:12]
Elon Musk
I'd like to just admonish you and the media for the absurd characterization of the far right. It is false and misleading and nonsense. Please keep this part in the Editor
- [17:26]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
in Chief of the Economist Zanny Minton Beddoes on the her 90 minute chat with the richest man in the world.
- [17:32]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
He's an extraordinary individual and there were lots of times when I was kind of slack jawed. At least inwardly.
- [17:39]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
That's next.
- [17:41]
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- [18:13]
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- [18:37]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
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- [19:14]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Welcome back. You're listening to Squawk Pod from cnbc where we're talking about a pretty buzzy interview. Elon Musk sat down with the Economist Insider and spoke with the editor in chief there, Zanny Minton Beddowes. That's where we start.
- [19:28]
Elon Musk
The most immediate thing that we could do is to have the leading AI companies at least just meet or have some sort of call once every few weeks and just discuss any safety and security issues.
- [19:46]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
But why haven't you done that yet? I mean, you don't all like each other very much. Yeah, yeah, but you know, you're not all, I mean, you're also all competing, right? You all want to be first.
- [19:55]
Elon Musk
Yes, but that's, that's where I think the competitors can keep, keep each other honest. So, meaning, Meaning, like if I think it's quite difficult for someone in the government who doesn't have a deep technical understanding and isn't driving the frontier of, of AI to know whether something should be released or not. However, the competitors, I think can, you know, if given sort of a week or two to review, a new model can highlight issues and have an incentive to keep all the competitors have an incentive to keep the others honest.
- [20:31]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
That was Elon Musk going to sit down and interview with the Economist. And joining us now is Zanny Beddoes, editor in chief of the Economist, who conducted that interview is fascinating. Zanny, I thought you did an extraordinary job and we were all, you know, glued to the screen. I'm curious, I mean, you touched on so many things. You touched on the AI piece. The whole idea that he really thinks within five years AI is going to be even smarter, potentially even than him and what that means to his own power. You got into some of the things that happened with Doge and his role in the government, usaid. What, what was the thing, what was the moment as you were sitting there where you thought, huh? That really surprised me.
- [21:13]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
Oh, so many. I think he's, he's an extraordinary individual and there were lots of times when I was kind of slack jawed, at least inwardly, I was really struck by the, his vision of the future and actually the fact that he now thinks it is inevitable that as you say, within five years AI is going to be more intelligent than humans and that within 10 years he's painting this picture essentially where, you know, we are, we are like the kind of the Labradors to the eyes. You know, money will be irrelevant, it'll be such an era of abundance. But they will be in control.
- [21:50]
Elon Musk
I think I may exceed the sum of human intelligence in about, in around five years. In five years, roughly five years is my guess. So there really won't be anything that AI can't do better than humans, apart
- [22:09]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
from being human, perhaps at a more prosaic level. What will life be like?
- [22:16]
Elon Musk
The most likely outcome is an age of amazing abundance where anyone can have anything they can think of. This is, this is. This may sound preposterous, but, well, here we are in 2026. Let's see where we stand in 2036. Now, of course, there are things that could derail this, like a massive global thermonuclear war or something like that.
- [22:42]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
You know, you know, Andrew, you know his background and he's, you know, this is a man who, 20 in 2015 said on a podcast that that was one of the scariest things he could imagine in 2023. He wanted to pause AI and now he's, you know, he's, you know, right at the front of this and I, it sounds like you've given up on your concerns. And I was going along for the ride. And he sort of, yes, yeah, I'm going along for the ride.
- [23:05]
Elon Musk
For the longest time I declined to participate in AI or was created OpenAI as essentially a counterweight to Google because at the time they had more or less a monopoly on AI in creating OpenAI and then having anthropic spin out of that. And now currently Anthropic's leader in AI. I mean, these actions have actually resulted in knock on effects that accelerated AI, which wasn't really my intention. So it just seems like all roads lead to acceleration of AI. So then I'm like, okay, well you can just sort of be sad about it or join the club.
- [23:53]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
And he said, he admitted that within, within one day he would go from exhilaration to terror. But I was, I was very struck by the inevitability. He thought that this technology and the speed with which it was progressing would mean that this extraordinary future would, would kind of come within five years. I mean, really struck, struck by that. And again, at the same time, he laid out, I think for the first time and you showed that in your clip, a willingness to work with the other frontier model makers to have some kind of. And he wants it an informative, typical Elon, right? He wants them all to get on a call and talk to each other and test each other's models for a week and you know, if they come up with security flaws, tell the model maker that's got them. And only then if, if the model maker doesn't do anything, then go to the government. But I was struck how similar that is actually to the proposal by Dennis Hassabis last week for a FINRA style public private partnership. And I think this really now has legs. I think this is going to go somewhere.
- [24:51]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
He did seem to suggest that he'd be even open to talking to Sam Altman at some level. Sort of hinted at that given.
- [25:02]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
No more than hinted. He said that? No, he absolutely said that. Because I said, look, you know, you are all massive, not just massive competitors, you know, many of you dislike each other and you're, you know, frankly, you know, slagging each other off on social media quite often. And he said at the end, he said, well, he explained to me why he dislikes Sam Altman, but then he said at the end, you know, yeah, maybe we should talk for the good of humanity. And so I think there is a sense of responsibility that he recognizes that, you know, the leading model makers do have to do this. And I said, does this have to happen quickly? And he said, yes. And I said, well, yeah. People are telling me this has to be done within the next six months. He said, six months is a very long time. It has to happen now.
- [25:42]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Right, I want to show a clip of another piece of this that's going viral. Has to do with, I think you might have used the word right wing politics at some point. And he did not react. Well, let's show that for a second.
- [25:56]
Elon Musk
It's just normal people. And here are the principles and tell me which of these sound terrible, that we should have secure borders, that we should have safe cities, that we should have sensible spending. Which of those three are far right fringe? And I would like to just admonish you and the media for the absurd characterization of the far right. It is false and misleading and nonsense. Please keep this part in.
- [26:27]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
We'll keep all of this in.
- [26:28]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
But let me, let me.
- [26:29]
Elon Musk
Don't cut this part.
- [26:30]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
Let me push back on that. Let me push back on that. Because you have nonsense, Elon, you have, what is it, close to 250 million followers on X. Yeah. You say things like popular guy, quote, civil war in Britain is inevitable. Just a question on the current trend.
- [26:45]
Elon Musk
Yes.
- [26:47]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
When were you last in the uk?
- [26:50]
Elon Musk
A few years ago.
- [26:52]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Okay, so you obviously reacted in the moment, but now you've had even more time to react and think about that. You kept it in, so we all got to see it. What do you think?
- [27:04]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
Well, of course I Kept it in because I, you know, I think people should see the whole of the interview. I said to him that he supports not just the populist right in Europe, but the far right fringe groups that are, you know, nowhere near the mainstream and do actually propagate not just, you know, the three characteristics, he said, but really divisive far right politics. I think that's undoubted and I think many of these politicians wouldn't be anywhere without Elon Musk's support. And I asked him why, and the reason I did that is because he also propagates a kind of caricatured view of Europe that it is some sort of hellhole overrun with Muslim immigrants, incredibly violent. And as you heard him say, he has said that England is heading for civil war. And I wanted to know when he was last there because I feel very strongly that this is a profound mischaracterization of Europe and it's irresponsible for someone who has 240 million followers to propagate things that are simply not true. He put up, as you know, for 48 hours on X, a film, Citizen Vigilante, which is glorifying vigilante violence and has a completely dystopian picture of Europe. And this is having consequences. Andrew, there are many people I come across in the US now who are worried about coming to London, who are worried about allowing their kids to go to London because they think that Europe is a sort of dangerous place. It's just not true on the facts. You know, London is a safer place than major US cities. Europe is not the hellhole he's painting it to be. And I just, I got exercised about it, probably more exercised than I should have done, because it seems to me that this is not just wrong, it's irresponsible and it's having really serious consequences. And I think it's just unfortunate that someone who is so far sighted and expansive and thoughtful, if slightly terrifying on where AI could go, can kind of basically play in this sort of dystopia about Europe and say things that are just not right.
- [28:58]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
And you've known Elon for a long time. I've known Elon for a long time. I think we both agree that in many ways he's very brilliant and very thoughtful. And so my question to you, to the degree that you disagree with him about his assessment, where do you think that assessment comes from? Why do you think he thinks that?
- [29:16]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
I think he has a very firmly held belief that if you have a large scale migration of people from cultures that then don't integrate it is going to have problematic consequences for a society. And, you know, to some degree, one can agree with bits of that. Uncontrolled migration is sort of societally untenable. But that's not what's happening in Europe. And my issue with him is his, I think, erroneous and caricatured description of what's actually going on in Europe. And, you know, the fact that he hasn't been here and the fact that he is reposting things and propagating things that are just not true kind of reinforces this negative spiral, particularly on X, which I think paints a picture of the continent which isn't accurate and which is in turn feeding, you know, the whole MAGA view that, you know, there's civilizational erasure in Europe. We're all, you know, it's a dying continent that's in a catastrophic shape. Of course there are problems, and I'm the first person to admit that there are problems. There are free speech issues in this country, there are problem areas in this country. There are problems with definitely some problems with migration, but it is not what he paints it to be. And nor frankly is he, he's being disingenuous when he says that all he is in favor of is, you know, secure borders and limited spending and safe cities. Because on two of three, two of those three, Europe does better than the us.
- [30:41]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
You also got into a bit of a fiery exchange with him over Doge and usaid.
- [30:49]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
Well, we did that. He got fired. I was just really just asking him and he mentioned that, you know, his view that Doge was, was just the USAID was a political organization. And he said zero. There had been zero deaths as a result of shutting down usaid. And I simply pushed back and I said, you know, it happened overnight. USAID was a very big, you know, provider of health care funding in Africa. I find it very hard to believe that there were no deaths and no suffering. And he, you heard him, he just had 0, 0 deaths. And again, I think that's, you know, you can, you can agree that usa, USAID needed reform or perhaps even needed shutting down. But the way it was done, clearly to me, to my mind, and I think indisputably has led to unnecessary suffering.
- [31:40]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
When you think about Space X, the IPO just happening, and Tesla, we keep having a sort of a parlor game about whether he ultimately buys that business. What do you think does it all become.
- [31:51]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
We didn't talk about explicitly, but my strong sense from the way that he described his vision was that it was, it was one set of businesses. And when he talked about the reason for his control, and this was really interesting because I said, you know, you have whatever is over 80% of voting shares and you essentially, you can go crazy and you still can't be removed. And he talked about why he needed this control and he spoke about it in a five to 10 year. He said, I need it for the next five, 10 years because we have to, you know, extend consciousness to the, to the universe. And he, he described all the elements, which included elements from space X and from Tesla.
- [32:32]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
You could tell, I think, that he has a lot of respect for you. But you guys had a lot of debate. I want to know how it ended.
- [32:40]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
Oh, I think you saw it at the end. It ended perfectly amicably. He said, at least I'm not boring. And then we carried on talking for another 15 minutes while he had his pictures taken. I mean, look, I think he's an extraordinary individual. I am not a Musk hater. I think he's an extraordinary, extraordinary individual who is done probably more than any other person to build the future. So I'm, I love talking to him. It was an incredible privilege to have, what, 90 minutes talking to him and, you know, we ended perfectly amateur. I hope he'll talk to me again. We'll see. It was really interesting, but I think it was important to push back on these areas where I think it deserves being pushed back on because I just think it's not right what he's saying.
- [33:19]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Zanny, it's always good to see you. We appreciate it and congratulations on the interview.
- [33:23]
Zanny Minton Beddoes
Thank you. Great to see you.
- [33:26]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
Still to come on Squawk pod partnership for New York, Stephen Fullop. Business leaders in the Big Apple are buzzing over the Biden era, FTC Commissioner Lina Khan's new role in New York, what it means for business regulation and how to mobilize voters in the largest city in the country.
- [33:42]
Stephen Phillips
When we go to kind of these town halls with companies, what you'll find is most are voters. Most vote in the presidential elections and very, very few are involved in local elections or local primaries. And that is something that we really need to change.
- [33:57]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
We'll be right back.
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Andrew Ross Sorkin
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- [35:33]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
This is Squawk Pod.
- [35:34]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
You're watching Squawk Box on CNBC on this summer Friday. I'm Andrew Ostor and along with Melissa Lee in for Becky and Joe, she's doing the job of both of them. You can believe it. Wall street facing a major shakeup of New York City. New York City's situation this after Mayor Mamdani named former FTC chair Lina Khan as Economic Development chair. Joining us to discuss what this means for New York City's business climate. Stephen Phillips, He's President CEO of Partnership for New York City. We said earlier that this might have come as a surprise. I don't know if it should have come as a surprise because she was involved in the transition. What do you think?
- [36:16]
Stephen Phillips
I mean, I think it's a fair point. I know we always spoke about the positive relationship and the closeness between Lina Khan and Mayor Mamdani. Look, we have concerns and trepidations that she's in such a prominent role. And the question is going to be, really, how much does he lean on her in this new EDC position?
- [36:34]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
So that, that is, that's the big question. And what kind of changes or things are you already hearing or not that could be good or bad for business?
- [36:43]
Stephen Phillips
I mean, look, you know, when he came in, he kind of redefined the position of economic development around economic justice. And we had a lot of questions around what does economic justice mean when you think about, you know, incentivizing businesses to grow here in New York City. You know, we had a lot of hope that we would get somebody in the EDC leadership that we were familiar with. We got it in one of the two positions that he appointed. We felt great about Tony being in the president position, but there's only one boss, Andrew, as you know. And the question is going to be who does the mayor lean on? And we know that he has a history with Lina Khan that is very close.
- [37:18]
Melissa Lee
He's known at the ftc, Steven, as you know, as being sort of adversarial to big business. And so I'm wondering how, you know, what are the major concerns that you have in this new role that you can actually make life more difficult for businesses operating in the city?
- [37:31]
Stephen Phillips
I mean, look, this is a major shift if you pursue a regulatory environment with organization, the edc that is rooted in a history of incentivizing business and growth here. You know, there's a lot of questions around the DSA and a democratic socialist mayor. And you've seen some companies say over the last couple months that they're going to grow elsewhere, Texas, Florida, and language matters from the executives. So when you put people in prominent positions that aren't necessarily pro business, it sends a message to the business community that is mixed at best. And that's kind of where we are.
- [38:07]
Melissa Lee
Do you think this makes a difference? I mean, if a business were making a decision today as to whether or not to expand or relocate or establish a presence in New York City, that this appointment is. Is bad, it would be a negative input into that decision making process.
- [38:22]
Stephen Phillips
Look, I think it's kind of everything is incremental, positive and negative. And you know, you see people making decisions in the hedging. So you've had some positive indicators. The job growth in New York City over the last couple of months has been great. New York City's resilient place. But at the same time, you see a long term trend of wealthy people leaving that's from independent entities kind of citing that. And you have companies like Apollo, like Goldman Sachs, like JP Morgan, Citadel, talking about scaling up elsewhere. So it's a mixed bag. And all of these things are additive in a direction of positive or negative. So I would put it on the negative side, her being there. But is it going to be the overwhelming decision making factor? Probably not, but it will move people closer in that direction for sure.
- [39:11]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
What do you think the relationship is right now? I mean, when you go to, when you go to City hall, what is the relationship better? Worse? Frosty? Are there, Are there things you can point to that they're doing that you like? Are there things? I mean, I think we just want to understand what it's actually like in the room.
- [39:28]
Stephen Phillips
Yeah. I mean, look, you know, a couple of days ago, the mayor changed the regulatory environment around small business businesses, making it easier for small businesses to open. We were a cheerleader and continue to be a cheerleader for that. You know, we've had several one on one conversations. And, you know, he's been to the partnership before and he's a talented communicator, there's no question about that. He would point to things like American Express opening or breaking ground and a new headquarters here in New York City as a positive indicator. And we would say that's great news. The city is very resilient. You know, American Express has been here over a century. However, those things are performative when you go to kind of ribbon cuttings and groundbreaking. I mean, we're looking for places to overlap, whether it's on child care, AI and job displacement, housing growth that are concrete and encouraging the private sector to grow. We just haven't gotten there yet.
- [40:24]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
So I was surprised. The mayor put out a tweet yesterday and if you saw it, said, if you have a second home in New York City worth more than $5 million, check your mailbox when you're back in the five boroughs because you've got mail Today. We sent notification letters to property owners letting them know that our new Pied a terror tax is coming soon. And the reason I mention this is just more the tone of it, you know, especially after what the back and forth with Ken Griffin. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised about it, but, you know, I thought that he had actually taken not a more conciliatory tone, but more of a tone of, look, we want all New Yorkers, people, if they want to be in New York and have a pied a terre, we'd love for you to have a pied a terre and we want you to pay the tax, and that's great, and if you want to live here, that's great. But this seemed to indicate that he wasn't so happy that you were even here if you had a pied a terre.
- [41:21]
Stephen Phillips
Yeah, I mean, look, the, the tax, the rich conversation is red meat to his base. They had huge wins, the DSA in the far, far left a couple of weeks ago in the primaries Here, and that was largely driven by the mayor's support. And over the last week or so, you saw the rhetoric around taxing the rich increase. You saw, you know, the rhetoric around Israel and Netanyahu, despite the fact that the mayor has no input over international or federal issues, increase. So, you know, those are campaign language and, you know, we would hope that the priority remains keeping the city safe and, you know, paving streets and, and encouraging economic development.
- [42:04]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
That's an interesting question. So let me ask you on the Netanyahu piece of this, as you watched all of that play out, and you're right that that's red mo for his base, but also then riles up the rest of the city. Somebody said, somebody actually compared him to our president the other day and said, because I was making the argument he can't do this, meaning this is before he came out and said he couldn't do it. And they said, well, he's going to say things he can't do, just the way the president sometimes says things that he's not going to do or can't do. And that this is just this, this, this is the new politics.
- [42:47]
Stephen Phillips
Well, I don't necessarily agree, I don't agree with that, Andrew. I think that, I think the president when he says, by the way, I'm
- [42:53]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
not defending it, I'm just suggesting this has sort of become this, maybe the Overton window has now shifted for everybody.
- [42:59]
Stephen Phillips
Look, I think that there is an anti Semitic component of the extreme left and extreme right for that matter. And at times, you know, you see, you know, politicians inflaming that because it's a passionate, passionate base. Unfortunately, I can tell you that the business community and the leadership here is very, very concerned about the anti Semitism increasing and the language coming out of City hall with regards to a focus and an obsession with Israel, to be honest with you. And we would hope that the priority would remain keeping New Yorker safe and improving the climate around business and growth here.
- [43:37]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
And when you, and when you speak directly with them about that particular issue, what's the response?
- [43:43]
Stephen Phillips
I mean, look, we, we, our chairs and myself had a conversation a couple months ago around the buffer zone bill, which we were very supportive of, which limited space that you could protest around synagogues. And the mayor had a different view and we were very, very clear that we disagree on that and we are going to be very vocal and we spent money on that. I would think that the business community is going to increase communication with our employees and more broadly around policies over the next year. It's A big, big factor of why I'm here. And one of the things that we want to do is organize more in that middle to make sure that we're communicating with kind of that pragmatic base that should be concerned about jobs fleeing. I mean, the affordability crisis. Crisis is real. We all acknowledge that. But, you know, the best way to solve it is to grow paychecks. And you only grow paychecks by increasing the opportunities for businesses to be here. And I think we're missing that.
- [44:39]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I want to read you something. This is from Charles Kushner, who was the ambassador. Obviously, his son is Jared Kushner, Josh Kushner, his other son, who's in the venture capital business. He says he's leaving New York. He's going to Florida. I haven't heard it articulated this provocatively or maybe specifically. A lot of people say they're going to Florida, and they don't say much. He says, I don't want to pay taxes and live in a city with a blatantly anti Semitic mayor and his anti Semitic wife, period. And then more, I don't know, maybe just as interestingly, he says, I also don't want to live in the city with the people who voted for him.
- [45:23]
Elon Musk
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
What do you think of that part?
- [45:25]
Stephen Phillips
Well, I've known Charlie Kushner a long time. He's still very invested in the region, building buildings in Jersey City. He owns properties in New York. I can't speak to the specific language, and I'm not going to get into calling somebody anti Semitic, specifically the mayor or his wife. I can tell you, though, that. But people do speak about leaving the city with regards to crime or antisemitism increasing, where people just feel unsafe. So you have a tax environment, you have a regulatory environment that are difficult, frankly. And then on top of that, when you have anti Semitic rhetoric, people do feel uncomfortable. So I'm not surprised that Charlie said that. I'm actually not surprised that he was that frank and honest about it. I mean, that's how he is.
- [46:11]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I thought the most interesting part was actually the second part, the part that where he said, I don't want to live in a city with the people who voted for him.
- [46:19]
Stephen Phillips
Let me say that that's going back to what I said is an important part about this whole thing. You have less than 15% of the eligible voters voted for the congressional candidates in that last primary. And so you could interpret that as saying that an extreme lefty October 8th, which basically, you know, you cannot argue that you're against Bibi, if you went to an October 8th rally, you're basically condoning rape, hatred and murder. Was elected. And yes, you could say that people supported her. Clearly they did. But we need to do a better job of motivating the other 85% of eligible voters to come out and be engaged. We haven't done that, frankly. And when we go to kind of these town halls with companies, what you'll find is most are voters. Most vote in the presidential elections and very, very few are involved in local elections or local primaries. And that is something that we really need to change. It's a priority for us.
- [47:18]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Steve, I want to thank you for joining us. Always appreciate hearing your perspective. Thank you.
- [47:23]
Stephen Phillips
Thank you.
- [47:23]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
I got to thank you.
- [47:24]
Melissa Lee
My pleasure.
- [47:25]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
For hanging out on this summer Friday.
- [47:27]
Melissa Lee
Always fun to work.
- [47:28]
Andrew Ross Sorkin
Have a great weekend everybody. Make sure you join us on Monday.
- [47:33]
CNBC Producer Katie Kramer
That is Squawk Pod for today and for the week. Thanks for listening. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern. Listen to Squawk Pod wherever you get your podcasts and please hit that Follow or Subscribe button and get this podcast in your feedback every day. Have an extra second this weekend. Give us a five star rating or write a quick review on Apple Podcasts. That really does help other listeners find us. That's it. We'll meet you right back here on Monday. Have a great weekend.
- [48:08]
Eamon Javers
We are clear. Thanks guys.
- [48:20]
Keith Landsford
This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Landsford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com MarketUpdatePodcast or find Schwab Market Update. Wherever you get your podcasts.