Fundrise CEO & “How to Lead a Meaningful Life” 3/27/26

Summary

Squawk Pod – March 27, 2026

Episode Theme:
This episode of Squawk Pod dives into three major topics: the latest developments in U.S. Senate funding for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and its political fallout; the volatile debut of the Fundrise Innovation Fund (VCX) and the democratization of private market investing, with CEO Ben Miller responding to recent short-seller scrutiny; and a discussion with Dave Evans, co-founder of the Stanford Life Design Lab, on what it truly means to live a meaningful life.

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Table of Contents

1. Senate DHS Funding Deal & Political Fallout
2. New York Wealth Tax Debates
3. Fundrise Innovation Fund—Democratizing Private Investment (with Ben Miller)
4. How to Lead a Meaningful Life (with Dave Evans)
5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

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1. Senate DHS Funding Deal & Political Fallout

Main Points:

• Senate passed a late-night deal funding most of DHS, but without desired immigration reforms or extra money for ICE.
• TSA agents, Coast Guard, and others have felt the brunt of an extended shutdown, with over 500 TSA staff reportedly quitting due to pay and working conditions.
• Political infighting continues, with both parties leveraging these workers for negotiating power.

In-Depth Discussion:

• The deal must still clear the House and be signed by President Trump, with delays likely in restoring normalcy at U.S. airports ([02:31]-[03:51]).
• Joe Kernan expresses frustration at political posturing:

  “If I had been in one of those lines and this was the end result, I’d be furious because this was all about them…” ([03:51])

• Andrew Ross Sorkin highlights the human cost:

  “TSA agents… lost more than 500 of them who quit, who can’t handle this anymore…” ([04:02])

• Both hosts discuss the lack of consequences for lawmakers and the repetitive nature of these brinkmanship tactics ([04:35]-[06:13]).
• Discussion touches on ongoing ideological battles about ICE, masks, and holding critical funding hostage, with calls for systemic reform ([06:13]-[07:54]).

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2. New York Wealth Tax Debates

Main Points:

• New York is embroiled in proposals to raise taxes on the wealthy, with major rallies planned and pressure mounting before the April 1 budget deadline.
• Proposed tax hikes include increased surcharges on high earners, a mansion tax, and new corporate levies ([10:09]-[11:29]).
• Governor Hochul opposes further tax hikes, concerned about New York's dwindling tax base as high earners migrate to Florida and Texas ([11:29]-[12:15]).

Memorable Exchange:

• Discussion around “patriotic millionaires” and voluntary overpayment of taxes:

  “What she said is, okay, write me the checks. You can always send more to the government.” – Robert Frank ([12:15]-[12:39])

• Revenue, not tax collection, is cited as New York’s real challenge; hosts discuss political sustainability of the “tax the rich” narrative.

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<a name="3"></a>

3. Fundrise Innovation Fund—Democratizing Private Investment

Segment Start: [15:12]
Guest: Ben Miller, CEO & Co-Founder of Fundrise

Overview:

• The Fundrise Innovation Fund (VCX), which gives retail investors access to tech unicorns like OpenAI and Anthropic, saw its stock price skyrocket over 1500% in its debut week before tumbling due to a negative short-seller report from Citron.

Key Discussion Points:

• Democratizing Venture Capital:

  “The idea of democratization—when I first started it, people told me this was crazy. Now it’s novel... Validates the strategy of democratizing access, bridging this gap between public and private, and doing it in a low-cost regulated wrapper.” – Ben Miller ([19:32])

• Public Market Reception:

  • Fundrise listed after building a large, diverse investor base (100,000+ people, average investment ~$5,000, $700M deployed).
  • Short-term price mania shocked even company insiders, with net asset value at ~$19 versus trading highs over $500 ([20:34]-[21:17]).

• Challenges of Public Listing:

  • Ben Miller notes fear of trading at a discount pre-listing, then rapidly needing to address trading at a premium post-launch ([21:09]-[21:54]).
  • Citron’s comparison to Destiny Tech 100 and historic pattern of retail mania collapsing discussed ([21:54]-[22:46]).
  • Importance of staying focused on long-term wealth creation for average investors, not day-to-day stock volatility ([23:09]).

• Short-Seller PR Campaigns and SEC History:

  • Miller defends against Citron’s allegations of overhype and issues with the SEC, calling them outdated and politically motivated:

    “That is literally totally irrelevant… He’s trying to talk the stock down to hurt our investors.” ([24:17]-[24:48])

  • Miller claims the company agreed to settle a minor SEC issue years ago to move past regulatory hostility, not due to wrongdoing ([24:48]-[25:35]).
  • Asked if he regrets going public:

    “It’s just a whole new level of stress, of pressure…” ([25:38])

• Vision:

  “Most people are being excluded from this wealth creation and the creation of AI… If these companies don’t go public this year… if we hit AGI next year… this problem is going to compound like we’ve never seen before.” ([25:49]-[26:43])

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<a name="4"></a>

4. How to Lead a Meaningful Life (with Dave Evans)

Segment Start: [26:48]
Guest: Dave Evans, Co-founder, Stanford Life Design Lab

Key Ideas & Insights:

• Challenging Maslow’s Pyramid:

  • Evans questions the practicality of achieving “self-actualization” as defined in Maslow’s hierarchy, arguing that humans are “incredibly capacious” and can’t experience everything their potential allows ([29:27]-[30:22]).
  • Calls for a mindset shift from “FOMO” (fear of missing out) to “JOMO” (joy of missing out):

    “There’s more than one of you in there… You contain far more aliveness than one lifetime permits you to live out.” ([30:22]-[31:07])

  • The abundance of experiences not lived is a sign of richness, not lack.

• Radical Acceptance & Agency:

  • Emphasizes choosing to love what’s in front of you and practicing availability and agency, not chasing unattainable completeness ([31:07]-[32:24], [35:46]).
  • Cites personal stories, including the last words of his late wife:

    “Oh, it’s so interesting.” ([32:24])

• About Meetings & Attitude Adjustments:

  • Suggests moving from “I’ve got to go to a meeting” to “I get to go to a meeting,” reframing obligations as opportunities ([35:24]-[35:59]).

• AI, Consciousness, and Human Uniqueness:

  • Evans and Kernan debate whether AI will ever be conscious; Evans distinguishes consciousness from intelligence, putting his faith in the uniqueness of human experience ([33:14]-[34:20]):

    “Intelligence is not the entirety of the human psyche and human person.” – Dave Evans ([34:20])

  • Near-death experiences and the mysteries of human consciousness are explored, with references to emerging research and personal belief ([34:20]-[34:39]).

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Political Gridlock:

  “These workers who are coming in, trying to do their best, protect the country and protect us should not be the ones who are bearing the brunt of this—ever.”
  – Andrew Ross Sorkin ([06:02])

• On Wealth Taxes:

  “New York doesn’t have a revenue problem. Revenues are coming in $2 billion more than expected… We don’t have a revenue problem.”
  – Robert Frank ([13:01])

• On Fundrise’s Mission:

  “Democratizing access, bridging this gap between public and private… doing it in a low cost, regulated wrapper.”
  – Ben Miller ([19:32]) “My job is to execute… deploying the capital into the best tech companies. I don’t know where it’s going to trade.”
  – Ben Miller ([21:54])

• On the Modern Human Experience:

  “You contain far more aliveness than one lifetime permits you to live out.”
  – Dave Evans ([30:22]) “We move from FOMO to JOMO, from the fear of missing out to the joy of missing out.”
  – Dave Evans ([31:10]) “Consciousness is not something available to a large language model… Intelligence is not the entirety of the human psyche and human person.”
  – Dave Evans ([34:20])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:31]–[07:54]: DHS funding deal, TSA/ICE debate, and political analysis
• [10:09]–[14:19]: Wealth tax battle in New York, Governor Hochul’s response, revenue vs. spending issues
• [15:12]–[26:46]: Fundrise Innovation Fund, stock debut, short seller controversy, CEO Ben Miller’s vision
• [26:48]–[37:09]: Dave Evans on designing a meaningful life, Maslow, FOMO/JOMO, radical acceptance, AI & consciousness

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Recap

This episode provides a multifaceted look at the week’s news and timeless questions: the impact of political gridlock on everyday workers, the ongoing U.S. debate around wealth taxes, the promise and pitfalls of democratizing access to high-growth tech startups, and the philosophical challenge of finding meaning in a complex world. With expert guests and lively debate, the hosts mix policy, markets, and life wisdom—delivered with CNBC’s signature blend of candor and wit.

Transcript

[Schwab Announcer]

Trading at Schwab is powered by Ameritrade, giving you even more specialized support than ever before, like access to the trade desk. Our team of passionate traders ready to tackle anything from the most complex trading questions to a simple strategy. Gut check. Need assistance? No problem. Get 24. 7 professional answers and live help and access support by phone, email and in platform chat. That's how Schwab is here for you to help you trade brilliantly. Learn [e-mail] trading not every sale happens

[AT&T Business Wireless Representative]

at the register before AT&T business Wire. Checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sail or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time.

[Robert Frank]

Sometimes AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Joe Kernan]

Bring in show music please.

[Becky Quick]

This is Squawkpod and I'm CNBC producer Cameron Costa. On today's a late night DHS funding deal in the Senate.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The bill that was passed last night also does not include reforms for ICE or immigration enforcement tactics that the Democrats had been seeking.

[Becky Quick]

The bill has more road to travel though, which means no relief quite yet for TSA agents, Coast Guard and others who have not gotten paid through the shutdown. And the stock that surged over 1500% in its first week of trading before sliding a bit back down. Fundrise CEO Ben Miller is using his innovation fund to give investors access to private companies like OpenAI.

[Ben Miller]

The idea of like democratization like when I first started it, people told me this was crazy. It was a now it's novel and I think the reception from the public market has shown validates the strategy of democratizing access, bridging this gap between public and private and doing it in a low cost regulated wrapper.

[Becky Quick]

Plus how to live a meaningful life. Dave Evans of the Stanford Life Design Lab on designing a life will be proud to have lived all of us.

[Dave Evans]

Both of you contain far more aliveness than one lifetime permits you to live out.

[Becky Quick]

All that and much more this Friday, March 27, 2026. SquawkPod begins right now.

[Robert Frank]

Stand Becky by in 3, 2, 1.

[Joe Kernan]

Cue it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

All right. Good Friday Morning everybody. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on cnbc. We are live from the NASDAQ market site in Times Square. I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan. Andrew is off today. Breaking overnight the Senate passing legislation to fund most of the Department of Homeland Security. It does not include the billions of dollars in funding Republicans were seeking for ICE and Border Patrol, which is already funded because of the big beautiful bill and funds that were available there. Republicans do plan to try and add that money through a separate budget reconciliation process. The bill that was passed last night also does not include reforms for ICE or immigration enforcement tactics that the Democrats had been seeking. Minority Leader Chuck Schumer pledged that there would be more opportunities and that Democrats would fight hard for reforms. In other words, everything we've done for the last 30 plus days where nobody was getting paid, where the line's been building up. Yeah, you're not going to see much that came out of that. Last night's agreement must still pass the House and it has to be signed by President Trump. So even if this gets done very quickly, we've heard that it could take several days before you see things get back to normal at the airports. The deal came after President Trump said that he would bypass Congress and pay TSA agents through an executive order yesterday, finding money somewhere within dhs, probably to make those payments.

[Joe Kernan]

I mean, if I had been in one of those lines and this was the end result, I'd be furious because this was all about them. It had nothing to do with the people or the TSA agents or the.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think the TSA agents are where we lost more than 500 of them who quit, who can't handle this anymore as a result.

[Joe Kernan]

ICE was always funded. That was always part of it. And this deal don't fund ice, but do everything else has been on the table for weeks. But they were insisting on, you know, just the masks and some other reforms that they. You just said we're going to keep. You know, Schumer said, we're going to keep trying. We're going to keep doing it. But they got. It was all just an exercise in

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

the biggest part of this. As Senator Fetterman told us yesterday here, this got resolved because they want to go on their breaks.

[Joe Kernan]

I know that, too.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So the idea that.

[Joe Kernan]

Is the House going to vote for this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We have our principles until. Unless and until it's going to interfere with our plans. Just more of the rules for the. But not for.

[Joe Kernan]

If the House didn't do it, it would just be to. To make the point that we're. We're not going to allow you to carve out anything because it doesn't hope

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

it passes the House.

[Joe Kernan]

But it's a moot point. ICE is already funded through 2029.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It should pass the House. There should be a rule that then comes through Congress. A law that Congress then passes, that nobody, nobody, no party and minority can hold things up by taking it out on the backs of the TSA agents, which is what happens again and again and again. By the way, the Coast Guard's not getting paid either. It's a ridiculous situation, right?

[Joe Kernan]

No. Yeah, it was.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's a tool that should not ever be allowed.

[Joe Kernan]

But the calculation with, I think Schumer made is that Trump is so hated by most of the Democratic Party that this probably will not stick to them during the midterms. So they were able to do this. They were able to do this with impunity. You think it's going to stick?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think there are a lot of people. It's going to stick.

[Joe Kernan]

This is two in a row.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's three that we've been through, through the last year, the longest that we've ever seen. That was just.

[Joe Kernan]

You had the pandemic era that they had absolutely nothing for closing it down. Now you've got this, all this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

These workers who are coming in, trying to do their best, protect the country and protect us should not be the ones who are bearing the brunt of this ever. There's all kinds of political fights. Elections have consequences, but it should not be carried out on the street.

[Joe Kernan]

The whole rationale, remember, defund the. I mean, defund ICE is not a worthy goal. I mean, maybe you need, you know, I'm sorry what happened. It was a tragedy what happened in Minnesota.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And look, you should negotiate.

[Joe Kernan]

They have T shirts for those people. They don't even know what Sheridan, Gorman. They don't even know her name. They don't mention Lake and Riley. They don't mention any.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm not even going to go down that path. They're just. The idea that this should be used as a political cudgel. There should be ways to negotiate and work this out in Washington. This should not be the way it happens.

[Joe Kernan]

The last one. So have we talked about the pandemic subsidies? Did the world end after that? Is the world going to end now? Because they didn't. What was it really about, other than saying no to Trump?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't know. Look, you can come into this and say that they have valid reasons for what they would like to see accomplished, changes that they would like to see. Got no problem with that. But you can't do this.

[Joe Kernan]

Do you have problem with. I mean, we'll get into the masks and everything else, because it's been so ginned up by certain elements, the entire. Trying to enforce federal immigration laws which weren't enforced for four years because it's been ginned up to the point where this kind of stuff happens. I wouldn't be an ICE agent, especially if I didn't have a mask. They're going to show up their house.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But I think you should have a. There's a very logical conversation to have about whether you should be allowed to wear masks as an agent, about whether you should have to go through the court system to come up with any of the ideological arguments and discussions.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, this isn't the way to do it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This is not the way to do it.

[Joe Kernan]

I don't know what you do with ma. I don't know what you do with mass. I really don't. Then stop vilifying these people that are trying to do their job and that were, you know, someone was elected president to try to do something about the 10 million. You know, isn't it a little strange that the two things, ICE and the SAVE act, are both these the most important things? That what is it? And it's not about getting votes. That's not why they're doing. How come it all seems to be trending towards. That's what the end result. Is there any other reason to not want to have IDs for voting? Let's not get into it. It's an 80% issue. Even 70% of Democrats.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

70% of Democrats, yes. I show my ID when I, when I show up to vote, too. Senator Elizabeth Warren sending a blistering letter to Fed Chair nominee Kevin Warsh yesterday, predicting that he will serve, in her words, as a rubber stamp for President Trump's Wall street first agenda. She accuses Warsh of having learned nothing from what she called his failures during his prior stint at the Fed. That letter, first reported by CNBC, said that Warsh's time as Fed governor includes 2008-2009 financial crisis and the Great Recession, which she said should disqualify him from a promotion. Warren is the ranking Democrat on the Senate Banking Committee, which will hold Warsh's confirmation hearing, although he does not need to win support of Democrats if Republicans all back his nomination. Republican Senator Tom Tillis supports Warsh, but is blocking his confirmation hearing until a criminal investigation of Fed Chair Powell is resolved. Warsh did not immediately respond to her request for a comment about the letter from cnbc. Go figure out. This is going to continue to play out. We'll see what happens. But that criminal investigation seems to be the one thing that is really tying things up, not just from Thom Tillis. Perspective. But from Powell's perspective, too, where he has said he won't leave when his term is up, he will stay on the fomc, at least until that criminal investigation is resolved as well.

[Joe Kernan]

New York City will be the latest battleground in the fight to raise taxes on the wealthy. Robert Frank joins us now. That's more what's going on, Robert?

[Robert Frank]

Good morning, Joe. Good to see. Well, the battle over taxing the wealthy has come to a head right here in New York. State legislators and the governor are squaring off over plans to raise taxes on high earners before the budget deadline of April 1st. So that's coming up fast. Senator Bernie Sanders will headline a rally to tax the rich in the Bronx on Sunday. That's going to attract a lot of people. Legislators in Albany joining New York Mayor Mamdani in a call to hike taxes on high earners. To close the city's budget gap. The legislature wants more than 5 billion in tax hikes. They would include the following. So that's a 0.5% statewide surcharge on the top tax brackets. The rate for those making more than 5 million would go to 10.8%. Those making more than 25 million, that would go to 11.4%. So the top combined city, state and federal rate for New York City would be over 52%. They're also calling for a hike in the corporate tax rate, a special New York City tax hike for financial center firms because we haven't lost enough jobs to Texas, a higher city business tax and a higher tax on the sale of properties valued at more than $5 million. That's called a mansion tax. Now Governor Hochul is saying she doesn't want more taxes on the wealthy since the tax base has already been eroded by wealthy New Yorkers moving to Florida. Take a listen.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I have to look at the fact that we are in competition with other states who have less of a tax burden on their corporations and their individuals. And I would say remote work changed everything.

[Robert Frank]

Now for more on the states proposing tax hikes on the wealthy and how it affects high earners, you can sign up for the Inside wealth newsletter at cnbc.com/inside wealth.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay. What Governor Hochul said there, I saw a longer play out of that. And you and I have been talking about this for over a week at this point. I think a longer playback from that conversation where it sounded like she was saying New Yorkers should do their patriotic duty and come back and pay taxes. In fact, why don't you go find some of the Ones who moved to Florida and Texas and bring them back here. And it sounded crazy. You gave me a little broader context for what you were saying.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Robert Frank]

She was referring there to a group called the Patriotic Millionaires. They're a group of progressive, largely inherited wealthy who have long said, tax us more. The wealthy should pay more. What she said is, okay, write me the checks. You can always send more to the guy. Joe, as you often point out, you can always send more to the government.

[Joe Kernan]

I know one of those guys. Bradley, what's in there? Tilson Whitney.

[Robert Frank]

If you want to pay more, you can.

[Joe Kernan]

And she said, abigail Disney, insufferable. They don't ever fill out that bottom line, ever. As far as I know, you can

[Robert Frank]

voluntarily pay more if you want to. Or she said, go to Palm beach and bring back the people that have left if you wanted to. So she said patriotic duty. What she was referring to there is the patriotic millionair changes the context, but

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

at least she's recognizing the problem.

[Robert Frank]

This rally and Madani is not going to be there, but he's there in spirit, is putting a lot of pressure on this governor. And it reminds me of when Andrew Cuomo in 2021 kept saying, we can't lose more wealthy to Florida. I'm not going to raise taxes. And then he came under pressure and he raised taxes. And so, I mean, so far she's holding the line. New York doesn't have a revenue problem. Revenues are coming in 2 billion more than expected. And with the Wall street bonuses just coming out higher than expected, that's $200 million more in state income that they didn't expect. $90 million more in new York City income that we did. We don't have a revenue problem.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Spending problem.

[Robert Frank]

It's a spending issue.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah, I guess. Not talking about judge learn at hand. I guess the most patriotic thing that every American needs to do is pay exactly what you owe and not a penny more. And if you look at many, look at Minnesota or look at California. So you shouldn't. You should just give the government everything at once and let them go crazy. We know what happens when they go crazy.

[Robert Frank]

Now that wants a wealth tax. And so it's burdensome.

[Joe Kernan]

It's your patriotic duty to pay as little. Pay exactly what you owe, but exactly. But as little as you use every mechanism you can to try to starve the behemoth.

[Robert Frank]

But this is the unifying theme for the Democrats at the state level.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Why is mom tell me not to be there?

[Robert Frank]

He doesn't want to antagonize the governor, but he kind of already is. Yeah. So it'll be interesting.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But you said he'll be there in

[Robert Frank]

spirit because a lot of his people will be there and his proposals are there. And of course, Bernie Sanders will talk about his new wealth tax with Joe's friend Ro Khanna that they proposed.

[Joe Kernan]

I think we've had a falling out,

[Robert Frank]

I think lately, Roe, we miss you. Come back if you're out there.

[Joe Kernan]

He's, I don't know, he's joined the loonies on the far left, 5%, well size. I think when he comes on here, he reins it in a little bit because he knows. But I see other stuff where I

[Robert Frank]

go, we haven't seen him in a while.

[Joe Kernan]

I hardly know ye. Thank you, Robert. Thank you, guys.

[Robert Frank]

Cheese will be next.

[Becky Quick]

Coming up on squawkpod, Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing access to private companies like OpenAI, Anthropic and Databricks. And after it went public last week, the stock surged well over 1500 percent until a short seller report raised valuation concerns. CEO Ben Miller responds to those concerns and shares his goal for the fund.

[Ben Miller]

Here's my hope, right, that Anthropic, OpenAI and all the best tech companies say, oh, this makes sense, that we should have an allocation for the little guy, you know, in a low cost wrapper. Could be us, it could be somebody else. Bishop being a low cost regulated wrapper. And they need to address this problem, which is that most people are being excluded from this wealth creation and the creation of AI.

[Becky Quick]

We'll be right back.

[I]

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[Joe Kernan]

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[Becky Quick]

Welcome back to Squawk Pod with Joe Kernan and Becky Quick.

[Robert Frank]

Standby Joe his mike here.

[Joe Kernan]

Wildness. The. The Fundrise Innovation Fund has had a volatile first week of trading, soaring more than 1500% above its net asset value at one point. But the shares slid yesterday after research firm Citron announced it was shorting the stock. And that's this morning that you're looking at right there. Down another 17. Sorry, Ben. Join us now. Fundrise co founder and CEO Ben Miller. I don't know if you had seen it yet, but I saw you look over at the. Where did it come public, though? The first trade was 31. But a week ago, what was the. The first trade was 31, I guess. Right. Okay, now it's 217. And it went to 314. Right. At 1.50, it went to 550. We didn't have that. It went to 550.

[Ben Miller]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernan]

So this is a fund that allows people to invest in things like Anthropic and OpenAI and databricks. So the first public trade was last week, but the fund was initiated or started back in 2022, and it wasn't. And then it finally came public and it's. Is it a REIT now? Because it has some real estate. It has other things. It's not a. It's not. It's just a VCX is a symbol and it's a way for investors to play things they normally couldn't play. That's. Hence the excitement. Right?

[Ben Miller]

Yeah. So when we conceived of democratizing Private technology. We went to the FCC in 2021. They never heard of it. You know, we worked with them for a couple of years. We launched the first public venture capital fund back in 2022. The minimum investment was $10. Over the course of the last three to four years, we have deployed about $700 million. We have 100,000 investors across the United States. So the average investment's been about $5,000. So before we listed, we must have been the most broadly held venture fund in history. And so the idea of democratization, like when I first started it, people told me this was crazy. Now it's novel and I think the reception from the public market has shown it validates the strategy of democratizing access, bridging this gap between public and private and doing it in a low cost, regulated wrapper.

[Joe Kernan]

But looking at, and we know about, I don't know, I think of ETFs, other things like that, where the net asset value, a lot of times the share price is below the net asset value. It is true. And I think Citron has looked at this. The net asset value of the fund of the right now is what, $19 or so?

[Ben Miller]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernan]

I mean, and it's trading at 200 and it went as high as 500. So there's a lot of excitement about what being able to be in this above what just is actually in the fund itself. Right.

[Ben Miller]

Yeah. It's funny because when we propose taking the fund public, we put it to a shareholder vote. You know, we have 100,000 shareholders.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Ben Miller]

And I got a lot of grief. There's a lot of people are saying, don't do it. It might trade at a discount. You know, we don't know. We're happy with this. The performance has been really good. Our average client return has been 40% a year on the fund. So there were. So it's funny to me to have gotten all this grief like eight days ago, right. Like really, really recently that it was going to trade at a discount. And now I'm seven days later and everybody say, oh, it's trading too much at a premium or. And so it's sort of like, you know, my job is to execute on deploying the, deploying the capital into the best tech companies. I don't know where it's going to trade. That's not, that's not my.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's what I would say is you're focused on what you're supposed to be doing. What Citron wrote that kind of caught my attention though is that we've seen this exact movie before. That's their words. Destiny Tech 100 is an identical product, a publicly listed closed end fund giving retail investors access to private AI and tech companies including SpaceX and OpenAI. OpenAI. When it launched in March of 2024, Retail Mania drove it above $75 a share against a net asset value of about $5. That's a premium exceeding 1400%. Then he said it collapsed, the premium collapsed. It now trades at $27 the net. While the net, while the net asset value actually grew to $20 a share. Just saying that that retail mania collapsed. You don't control the retail mania. You don't know what happens with that. Could the same thing happen here?

[Ben Miller]

I mean the whole challenge is as a regulated entity is talking about how it's going to trade. Like I have no idea. Like, like I know what my job is. My job. And it's not really about just us. Like there's a problem, right? The problem is the private companies are staying private longer. Like I don't think there's been a world class company built in the public markets in decade.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But we are expecting Space X and Open AI to go potentially this year.

[Ben Miller]

But it may be in the trillions. Right? So you're talking about trillions of dollars that have been. That accrue to the top 1% to the wealthiest people. There's going to be the next wave behind it of great tech companies. So we need to build a bridge. That bridge is structural. Everybody's focused on today who goes public today. But over the next 10 years, like if VCX performs the way I hope it does, everyone should hold venture capital in their portfolio the way they hold real estate or they hold qqq. It should just be normal.

[Joe Kernan]

I guess that Citron. No, Becky is saying that, that Ben did control the mania because of the, because of the 200. Is that, is that to 200 influence? 5 years 200 plus influencer content creators paid $8 million to hype the fund.

[Ben Miller]

No, no, that's a half a decade ago. It's before Innovation Fund existed. This is like it's shorting and stock is totally normal in the public markets. Lots of people shorting our stock. Lots of people are going long the stock.

[Joe Kernan]

But there's nothing to that. It wasn't.

[Ben Miller]

The difference is that, and this is, I think one of the reasons why people don't want to go public is that some companies short stock and then do PR smear. Hold on, I'm going to answer. Okay, there's a PR smear campaign to drive the stock down, right? Making up nonsense, throwing mud against the wall. That is literally totally irrelevant. But he's trying to talk the stock down to hurt our investors.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But is this true? The SEC found willful.

[Ben Miller]

No, no, this is, first thing is this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's five years ago.

[Ben Miller]

Five years ago, Gary Gensler was running around attacking all fintechs. He was harassing everybody. We were just like, it's easier to just. We both agreed that we'll move on. There was no admission of any guilt. It was simply. Let's move. It's like if you look how much money it was, it was really small amount. We just moved on because at that time, Gary Gensler is very anti tech, very anti innovation. And we just didn't want to deal with it. And so we didn't. And I mean, again, like half, half a decade ago, that's what he's using to talk the stock down. I mean, that's what's happening these days. This is like the problem with public markets is this is exactly why companies don't want to go public. They want to focus on building their business, not volatility, not people trying to take advantage of them by, you know, the stocks. Trading has nothing to do with me.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do you regret going public because of this?

[Ben Miller]

I mean, it's, it's, it's just a whole new level of stress, of pressure of public.

[Joe Kernan]

You know, where do you think it should trade if the, if the net asset value is 19.

[Ben Miller]

Oh man, I, I am not definitely not allowed to say where I think it should trade. I mean, that's. But I mean, here's my hope, right? That anthropic OpenAI anduril, all the best tech companies say, oh, this makes sense, that we should have an allocation for the little guy in a low cost wrapper. Could be us, could be somebody else, but it should be in a low cost regulated wrapper. And they need to address this problem, which is that most people are being excluded from this wealth creation and the creation of AI creation. AI is such an existential moment. If these companies don't go public this year, which I think they might not because there's a war in Iran, right? There's an oil shock. The IPO window may close if we hit AGI next year before the wind they go public, like this problem is going to compound like we've never seen before.

[Joe Kernan]

All right, Ben, we appreciate it. Thank you.

[Ben Miller]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay,

[Becky Quick]

still to come on, squawk pod, answering the question of how to live a meaningful life using design. Dave Evans is co founder of the Stanford Life Design Lab and he's a former Apple executive.

[Dave Evans]

You are an incredibly capacious entity called a human being living in a massively target rich environment called the world. And cool stuff's happening all the time. So when it goes by, just remind you I'm making a good choice. Love what's in front of you. Thy ticket lady Jennifer of Coolidge.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, many thanks good sir.

[Becky Quick]

Here is my Discover card.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

They accept Discover at Renaissance fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Getth with the times. With the times.

[AT&T Business Wireless Representative]

You're playing the loot.

[Becky Quick]

Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?

[Robert Frank]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[Schwab Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] MarketUpdatePodcast or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Joe Kernan]

Hold.

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[Robert Frank]

AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Becky Quick]

You're listening to Squawk Pod.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You're watching Squawk Box right here on cnbc. I'm Becky Quick, along with Joe Kernan.

[Joe Kernan]

Our next guest is the co author of a new book titled how to Live a Meaningful Life Using Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, joy and Flow every day. Dave Evans is also the co founder of the Stanford Life Design Lab and a former executive at Apple where he helped design the mouse and one of the co founders of EA Electronic Arts. And where I was going with this if I was going to ask someone for how to find happiness, I would ask maybe someone like someone. You were mechanical engineer, right? You're a science training.

[Dave Evans]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernan]

You know, instead of someone who has a social and I say social science with quotation marks because the science should not be part of psychology or any because there's no science involved.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Right.

[Joe Kernan]

You deal in realities and facts and physics and things like that. So I come to you. Yeah, but now I'm confused because I don't understand what you're saying exactly.

[Dave Evans]

Okay.

[Joe Kernan]

Because you talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and I have always fallen back on that. And if you notice familiar, it's a pyramid. You get done with shelter and food and relationships, security, and you finally get to the top. And the last thing you need to get in your life for happiness is self actualization.

[Dave Evans]

Right?

[Joe Kernan]

And I think that's being comfortable in your own skin or dignity of work or whatever you say that it doesn't end there.

[Dave Evans]

Oh, it doesn't because it doesn't work.

[Joe Kernan]

Why doesn't it work? And I understand because I'm not sure I'm self actualized and I'm still trying. How do I get self actualized?

[Dave Evans]

Well, if you think of self actualization the way that Maslow told you to think about it, you can't be. Because we know at the Stanford Life Design Lab and any competent person thinking for two or three seconds about it realizes all of us, both of you, contain far more aliveness than one lifetime permits you to live out. There's more than one of you in there. In the 1943 paper that established the hierarchy of needs, Maslow writes, self that self actualization is becoming all that one can be, the result of which will be fulfillment. Okay, so that's the scientific.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So wait a second, you're saying these are the ones we chose not to take? Because every decision you make means that you have to close some other doors at some point and we don't get to do everything.

[Dave Evans]

It's not really the things you don't choose to do. But there's so much of you that will never actually happen.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But that's because I can't. There's not enough.

[Robert Frank]

You can't.

[Dave Evans]

Possible.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Evans]

And that's the good news. That's not the bad news. So we, we move from FOMO to Jomo, from the fear of missing out to the joy of missing out. This scarcity mindset that says, oh man, oh shoot, I should have done that. Oh no, there's maybe one tiny little version of my life that might work and if I miss it, I'm screwed. No, the really cool thing going by you haven't got time for is a reminder that you are an incredibly capacious entity called a human being, living in a massively target rich environment called the world. And cool stuff's happening all the time. So when it goes by, just remind you I'm making a good choice. Love what's in front of you. So take the agency to own what's really going on. So where Maslow made a mistake was you can't attain that kind of fulfillment if you have decided. We'd say today I have to be fully manifested for me to really deserve to say I have been fulfilled. You can't get there from here. You're way bigger than your lifetime permits. Look, I'm an old guy. I'm turning 73 in a couple of weeks. I've buried a bunch of people. Not a single person I have buried was done. There is no done. That's the good news. It stays interesting all the way to the very end. My dear late wife who died five years ago, last thing she said before she conked out, she said, she goes, oh, it's so interesting.

[Joe Kernan]

Right?

[Dave Evans]

It's supposed to be interesting all the way to the end.

[Joe Kernan]

That's the one thing I've heard from people that I've loved and respected when they're. And they live to an old age, but they're spouses tell me he or she really didn't want to go. That's the one thing that they say, they really, they really don't want to go because they still love life. So then I was thinking about AI and we have so much. You take all of Jensen's chips, put them all together and there's trillions of them and all this money and all this. Yeah, still not even close. Not even close to the human consciousness and what we become with 4 billion years of evolution. We are, if there. And I hope there is a God and I believe in God, but if there is, we are. We could very well be the darling of the universe and of his creation. Don't you think we're that special?

[Dave Evans]

Yeah, no. On our team. So Bill, my partner is the Nietzsche living atheist and I'm the Jesus living theist. And so we kind of covered the ground a little bit. So I'm on the same page as you there.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, he can say evolution was the

[Dave Evans]

most incredible, but even we're a mystery appreciating groups regardless. And so no, we would argue, all of us on our team and most of people I know at Stanford, that consciousness is not something available to a large language model, you know, so ever. Well, that's, you know, that's a long and essentially religious argument right now. A techno religious argument. And general consciousness.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Dave Evans]

So in science right now, you know, there are two schools of thought. One is that consciousness is a derivative of the electrical activity in your brain and the Other is that it precedes it. And so the electrical activity is merely what it looks like when consciousness is active in you. So I've fallen the latter category, as would Dan Siegel from ucla. We're in that camp. And I don't think consciousness is ever going to be created by an entity that is, in fact merely doing intelligence. Intelligence is not the entirety of the human psyche and human person.

[Joe Kernan]

The near death experience is too. There's enough. It happens enough to where I really wonder about.

[Dave Evans]

Yeah, Bruce Grayson's book after. You know, the International association for Near Death Studies at the Medical School of Uva has got 40,000 records of people with near death studies. And there's some pretty interesting data out there.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You walked away from Electronic Arts.

[Joe Kernan]

I did.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You made that decision. And that's a big part of choosing happiness, right?

[Dave Evans]

You get to decide how you want to live. You know, my father died when I was nine years old. We later learned of suicide. So I didn't have a dad. I really wanted to be one. And frankly, I'm just not good enough to, you know, both run a company with thousands of interesting things to do all day long and be a great dad. And I finally just said, you know, by the time I figure out managing it well, my kids will be 25 and had blown it. So I'm. I'm doing something else. So I walked out huge.

[Joe Kernan]

And I wish we had more time because now I'm starting to understand. But there's one thing. It's just we talked about before. It's not happening for me, where you say you got to change. I've got to go to a meeting. Do I get to go to a meeting?

[Dave Evans]

Yep.

[Joe Kernan]

No, never. That will never happen. That you haven't been to any of our meeting. I will. No, that will never. I can't utter those words with a straight face. It will not. Can you really say, Becky, you said there's one meeting.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I like going to the CNBC meetings

[Joe Kernan]

because they can't start without you. Maybe the only meetings you should go to are the ones that can't start

[Dave Evans]

if you possibly can. But what it really is. So what Joe's talking about is one of our tips is shift from your vowel, from got to to get to. Which is. What's that doing? That's moving from a resistance to an outcome. You don't care about it.

[Joe Kernan]

Maybe other things besides me, like extra.

[Dave Evans]

No, what you can do. I mean, in that really boring meeting, what you can practice our power two for of the mindset. The mindset that allows us to occur is radical acceptance plus availability. And radical acceptance is. I mean get completely over. It's not what you had in mind. It's just what is. So the meeting sucks big time. Fine. Get over it. And then say in that availability. It's like, okay, I accept whatever. Just make it be over. That's neutral.

[Joe Kernan]

The producer just said we get to go to break next. Oh.

[Dave Evans]

So lean in. And what might the break hold for us?

[Joe Kernan]

Oh, great.

[Ben Miller]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay. People at home, you're gonna love these.

[Schwab Announcer]

I love you.

[Joe Kernan]

When you come back, you're love these commercials.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

More of this. This is really good.

[Dave Evans]

That's why I wrote the book.

[Joe Kernan]

It is. And he's. You're a theist. I've talked to enough intellectuals that arrive at the same conclusion against all odds. Because we only have five senses that give us so little of what's really happening in the universe, we have no idea there's more things in heaven and earth. Horatio.

[Dave Evans]

Well, no, it's pretty interesting these days because we're now living in an age where we're getting really hard data on the soft stuff, which is pretty interesting. Neurophysiology and neuroscience is ending up some really interesting places.

[Joe Kernan]

Thank you.

[Becky Quick]

That's Squawk Pod for today and for the week. Thank you for spending this week with us. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Rossorkin. We can day mornings on CNBC starting at 6 Eastern and going all the way until 9 to get the smartest, most interesting conversations from that three hour TV show. Please follow us here on Squawk Pod so you never miss an episode. We'll meet you right back here on Monday. Have a great weekend.

[Robert Frank]

We are clear. Thanks, guys.

[Becky Quick]

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