“Grocery Price Emergency” & Crypto’s Tough 2026 6/30/26

Summary

Squawk Pod Summary

Episode Title: “Grocery Price Emergency” & Crypto’s Tough 2026
Date: June 30, 2026
Hosts: Joe Kernen, Becky Quick, Andrew Ross Sorkin
Key Guests: John D’Agostino (Coinbase), Rohit Chopra (former CFPB head), Jeremy Grantham

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Episode Overview

This episode of Squawk Pod dives into two main themes:

• The U.S. Supreme Court decisions impacting presidential power and financial regulation, with broad implications for markets and independent agencies.
• The dual crises of rising grocery prices (“grocery price emergency”) and the volatile state of crypto markets mid-2026, featuring deep dives with prominent guests.

Notably, the episode features robust panel dialogue, in-depth crypto debate, and expert insight into consumer economics and regulatory responses.

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Supreme Court Rulings: Presidential Power & Federal Agencies

[02:35 - 04:54]

Key Points:

• The Supreme Court ruled 6–3 that President Trump had authority to fire FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter, undermining the idea of fully independent federal agencies.
• Contrastingly, Trump cannot fire Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, at least not without due process, suggesting special legal status for the Fed.
• The Court also upheld a Mississippi law accepting mail-in ballots up to five days post-Election Day.
• Several significant cases awaited rulings, including birthright citizenship and trans participation in sports.

Notable Exchanges:

• Justice Gorsuch’s opinion: “Independent agencies are not so independent after all.” (Paraphrased by Becky Quick, [02:35])
• Andrew Ross Sorkin: "From a business perspective, you want some consistency...you don't want things to rotate every four years if you have a new administration..." [04:44]

Memorable Commentary:

• Joe Kernen points out the stakes for businesses: “This relates to so many different agencies that historically have had some independent members.” [04:43]

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Legislative Update: Housing Bill, Save America Act, and Market Tensions

[05:03 - 08:53]

Key Points:

• President Trump hesitated to sign the bipartisan housing bill limiting institutional purchases of single-family homes, calling it “a big yawn” compared to the voting reform bill (“Save America Act”).
• Even so, the bill will become law automatically in 10 days unless vetoed.
• Trump publicly pressured gasoline retailers to cut prices: “Drop your price for our great American people.” [06:25]
• National average for a gallon of regular gasoline: $3.85.

Notable Quotes:

• President Trump (via Truth Social, paraphrased by Becky Quick): “Retailers must quickly react...Drop your price for our great American people.” [06:25]

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The “Trump Accounts” and Wealth Donation Conundrum

[07:27 - 11:08]

Key Points:

• Administration exploring ways for SpaceX (and other founders like Warren Buffett) to donate stock to new children’s savings accounts (“Trump accounts”).
• Current law only allows cash into account funds, not individual stocks.
• Ongoing debate on how to incentivize long-term wealth growth for kids and diversify funds.

Panel Banter:

• Discussion on the illiquidity and potential windfalls (or pitfalls) of donating undiversified stock to children’s long-term accounts.

Memorable Moments:

• Jeremy Grantham quips on aging and market opportunities, referencing Buzz Lightyear: “The size of the universe is the market potential.” [10:21]
• Panel shares light-hearted “dad jokes” about haircuts and market longevity. [11:22-11:39]

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Aviation Safety: Drones and Crowded Skies

[11:08 - 13:57]

Key Points:

• JetBlue pilot reported hitting a drone on approach at JFK; no damage found.
• Discussion of growing drone incidents and airport safety.
• DJI and other commercial drones are programmed to avoid airports, but hacks are possible.

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Crypto in 2026: Is There Hope?

[16:25 - 29:20]

Guest: John D’Agostino (Coinbase’s Head of Institutional Strategy)

Crypto Market Volatility and Value

[16:25 - 18:59]

• Bitcoin and crypto have endured steep drops but have historically bounced back to new highs each cycle.

• D’Agostino cites a pattern of “higher lows and higher highs” over 15 years.

  “For the past 15 years. We've gone through about six of these cycles now, during each of which Bitcoin has achieved a new higher low...and gone on to achieve a new higher high.”
  — John D’Agostino [17:06]

• “Is it that insane that there would be hundreds of millions of people who have a deep conviction...?”
  — John D’Agostino [18:43]

Investor Conviction and Institutional Catalysts

[18:59 - 20:44]

• Most institutional investors see “micro catalysts” (e.g., stablecoin payments, AI applications on blockchain) driving gradual adoption, even when not making headlines.

• Over 40 countries now hold bitcoin for their national balance sheets in some fashion.

  “All we're seeing is steady growth, even if the headlines don't match that.”
  — John D’Agostino [20:41]

Defining Value: The Bitcoin Debate

[20:44 - 25:11]

• Jeremy Grantham: Fierce defense of crypto as a store of value:

  “To call digital currency or crypto or bitcoin is worthless as a steaming bucket of piss...shows a complete lack of any investigation or insight into...the nature of money.” [20:44]

• Qualities of a store of value: scarce, durable, portable, verifiable, accepted.

• Panel discusses parallels between bitcoin and historic currencies (e.g., gold, shells).

• Grantham rebuffs high-profile bitcoin skeptics:

  “Geniuses can be wrong...I prefer to let the track record [speak for itself].”
  — John D’Agostino [22:34]

Skepticism, Philosophy, and the “Shell Game”

[25:11 - 29:20]

• Becky Quick highlights the predicament of late buyers:

  “The broader question...is not for the folks who bought it at $10,000, it's the folks who bought it at $100,000...who were told this was going to a million dollars.” [24:09]

• Grantham and D’Agostino point out other assets endure wild swings; value often driven by participant consensus, not fundamentals:

  “If by some far stretch...hundreds of millions of people decide [bitcoin] has value...then guess what, Andrew? It does.”
  — John D’Agostino [26:22]

• Value compared to art, wine, or sports teams—irrational from a cash flow perspective but clear in market reality.

Notable Exchange

• Discussion on US stock listings:

  “The majority of the New York Stock Exchange listings are EBITDA negative, so if that was the case...all of those companies would…have negative stock prices.”
  — John D’Agostino [28:48]

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Grocery Price Emergency: Consumer Squeeze & Policy Limits

[31:15 - 36:48]

Guest: Rohit Chopra (former CFPB head, incoming CA consumer agency)

The Emergency

[32:11 - 32:57]

• Despite strong stock markets and headline macro data, average American families are struggling:

  “Even one making a very decent income, they no longer have the cushion that they had just two years ago…now they are running on fumes and racking up debt.”
  — Rohit Chopra [32:14]

• Families face drastic increases in costs across healthcare, energy, and, especially, groceries.

What to Do?

[33:01 - 35:51]

• Chopra criticizes policymakers for focusing on only long-term fixes. Urges short-term relief for rising food and energy costs alongside addressing structural issues (market concentration, supply chain bottlenecks, pricing power).

• On allegations of price gouging:

  “We've seen this in the oil and gas industry. There is no question you have to crack down on so-called innovation that is not actually giving people anything new or better—it is just driving up prices…”
  — Rohit Chopra [34:47]

• Need to tackle both illegal price manipulation and longer-term market reforms.

Causes

• Market concentration (especially in beef)
• Tariffs (particularly those lacking strategic purpose)
• Surveillance-based and personalized pricing tactics

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Notable Quotes & Panel Moments

• Joe Kernen (on legislative gridlock): “It's probably pretty frustrating to congressional members who are trying to show that they are getting things done before the election...” [06:02]
• Becky Quick repeatedly clarifies her impartiality as a journalist: "I want to be completely independent, ask whatever I want and not tell you something’s going up or down…" [25:51]
• Jeremy Grantham (wry observation on asset bubbles): “Assets can go down 70% and then go back up 150%. It happens all the time to all different asset classes.” [28:12]
• Rohit Chopra on families “running on fumes and racking up debt” [32:14], setting the episode’s theme of financial anxiety.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:35 - 04:54] Supreme Court and independent agencies
• [05:03 - 07:27] Housing bill, gas prices, "Trump account" discussions
• [16:25 - 29:20] Crypto’s volatile cycle, value debate, and institution adoption
• [31:15 - 36:48] Grocery Price Emergency and policy responses

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Overall Tone and Style

The conversation is energetic and at times combative, reflecting both the urgency of economic issues and the passionate views of the guests. The hosts are sharply inquisitive, and the discussions toggle seamlessly between deep technical analysis, policy critique, and moments of levity. The episode provides both news context and practical market perspective.

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Takeaways

• Crypto is battered but not broken: While price volatility has shaken confidence, long-term believers cite both historical precedent and sustained institutional interest as signs of resilience.
• American consumers are hurting: Even for well-off families, groceries and fuel are taking up larger portions of the budget, with little relief in sight.
• Policymaking is stuck in the middle: Efforts to bring immediate relief are stymied by legislative gridlock and regulatory complexity, even as long-term fixes move slowly.
• Panel delivers sharp insight: The guests bring both grounded (Chopra) and theoretical (D’Agostino, Grantham) perspectives, helping listeners understand both the “why now” and the broader context.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone wanting a snapshot of the economic and financial cross-currents defining mid-2026: policy uncertainty, consumer strain, and the unkillable dreams—and doubts—of crypto.

Transcript

[Rohit Chopra]

Geico presents a 30 second podcast between your podcast, today's story is shared by one of our listeners. It's called Betrayed by a Bill. It was in that moment I caught who was staring back at me in betrayal or more like what, my insurance bill. With trembling hands, I grabbed my phone and switched to Geico, saving about $900 in the process and never to be betrayed again. Now that was bloody riveting.

[Becky Quick]

It feels good when the story ends with savings.

[Podcast Announcer]

It feels good to Geico. This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] Market Update podcast or find Schwab Market Update. Wherever you get your podcast, bring in show music please.

[Joe Kernen]

Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod, the Supreme Court taking on the President's executive powers in the waning hours of its term. Who can be fired? Who can stay?

[Becky Quick]

We've talked to people over the years about the benefit of having people on both sides.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

From a business perspective. You want some consistency and what it

[Joe Kernen]

all means for consumers and how people feel about the economy. As the President delays signing a bipartisan house housing bill, the big yawn and a volatile first half of 26 for crypto investing, Coinbase's head of institutional strategy, John D' Agostino has hope yet.

[John D'Agostino]

Really? For the past 15 years, we've gone through about six of these cycles now, during each of which Bitcoin has achieved

[Joe Kernen]

a new higher low plus a Biden era regulator. The former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, Rohit Chopra has declared a grocery price emergency in America.

[Rohit Chopra]

The average family say of four people, even when making a very decent income, they no longer have the cushion that they had just two years ago.

[Joe Kernen]

It's Tuesday, June 30th, halfway through 2026. Squawk Pod begins right now.

[Becky Quick]

Stand Becky by in three, two, one. Cue it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Good morning everybody. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on cnbc. We are live from the NASDAQ market site in Times Squ Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Becky Quick]

Meantime, by the US Supreme Court ruling that President Trump had the authority to fire FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter. That 63 ruling giving President Trump and future presidents the power to remove members of independent federal agencies that carry out functions under the executive branch of the government. Justice Neil Gorsuch writing that independent agencies are not so independent after all. President Trump posted on Truth Social calling it a big win. Now on the other end, separately, the Supreme Court ruled that President Trump does not have the authority to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook from the central bank. And that's for now, but it left open the possibility of firing her in the future. That the court could rule that Trump's attempted attempt failed, or I should say the court ruled that it failed because Cook was not given the due process that she was owed under federal law. But it seems to give the sense that the Fed is in a different category than some of these other agencies. And the court upheld a Mississippi law allowing mail in ballots to be received up to five days after Election Day. Justice Amy Coney Barrett, writing for the majority that the choice of a candidate made when voting is complete, not when ballots are received. Now, President Trump slammed the court for that, telling reporters the decision gives people more time to vote illegally without citing today is the final day of supreme of the Supreme Court's term. There are several major cases left, including Trump administration challenge to birthright citizenship. Also a ruling on laws that ban trans girls and women from participating in women's sports at public schools. And also a GOP backed challenge to campaign finance limits. But I think for the purposes of sort of the business community, the decision around this idea of independent agencies, ftc, this relates, the SEC relates to so many different agencies that historically have had some independent members and we've talked to people over the years about the benefit of having people on both sides of a, of a situation so that everyone doesn't, it's not all like minded. But also that's not where the Supreme

[John D'Agostino]

Court also so you get a little

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

consistency from a business perspective. You want some consistency. You don't want things to rotate every four years if you have a new administration that comes in because it just makes it hard to follow the rules to figure out what's happening.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Expands executive powers. No doubt it does, but the agencies are under the executive branch.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Right.

[Becky Quick]

Will you sign that housing bill?

[Jeremy Grantham]

I have not. It hasn't been sent to me yet. It's coming.

[Podcast Announcer]

I understand.

[Jeremy Grantham]

And then I'll make, then I'll make it. Here's what I would like to sign much more than a bill that big deal. It's a yawn. Some people say it's wonderful. To me, compared to the Save America act, just about everything is a big yawn. President Trump told reporters he hasn't decided yet whether to sign the bipartisan housing bill that would limit the amount of single family homes that institutional investors can buy. This was kind of his idea initially about the big institutions gobbling up all the single family homes. But the president abruptly canceled a signing ceremony last week, all relating to the SAVE Act. He's demanding Congress pass that voting reform bill. Yesterday, President Trump said the housing bill was so unimportant compared to the voting bill that he called it a big yawn. Still, making that point, we'll see whether

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

he signs was a bit of a, you know, a fit of pique, just frustration that he can't get the SAVE act pushed through on some of these issues. That law, I mean, that bill will become law if he doesn't do anything about it in the next 10 days. If he leaves it alone and doesn't veto it, it will become law anyway. But it's probably pretty frustrating to congressional members who are trying to show that they are getting things done before their election. That comes up from the midterms, too. President Trump also posting last night about fuel prices. At 7:39pm he wrote, Gasoline retailers must get their prices down immediately. They're too high considering that oil is now at $68 a barrel and headed south. The retailers must quickly react to this statement and do what they know is right. Drop your price for our great American people. There will be no gouging, which is totally illegal. If retailers don't do this, big problems lie ahead. Start Targeting around the $2.50 a gallon number and California should stop charging such heavy taxes on their gasoline. Soon the tax will be higher than the product itself, and the United States will not stop stand for it. Nor will the people of California who are being abused by these ridiculous taxes and by their own government. President Donald J. Trump as of this morning, the national average for a gallon of Regular gasoline is $3.85.

[Becky Quick]

Meantime, the Trump administration has spoken with SpaceX about donating stock to the children's savings accounts, known as Trump accounts, which are set to launch next week. That's going to a report from Semaphore that says it's unclear how a contribution might be structured. And if you remember, DealBook reported that about a month or a month and a half ago that there was an effort underway to try to find ways for founders and individuals who had stock, Space X being one of them. But also they were looking at people like Warren Buffett and other people like that you could contribute your own company stock directly into the Trump accounts. The conundrum is the way the, the Law has been structured is you have to effectively donate cash into the. So you can't into the funds. And it creates a very interesting dynamic. The great news is if you could put stock in and if Space X goes up and up and up for 18 years, that would be unbelievable for, for a kid. The bad news is if you think that it's supposed to be a diversified fund, which is part of the whole effort right now, the way it's structured is it's all diversified. They're not trying to have you in one stock or the other because obviously goes up, it's great. If it goes to zero, it's problem. So the question is how do you, how do you set that up? And if you could donate extraordinary amounts of stock, particular stock and keep it there, you then lock it away.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So tax structure?

[Becky Quick]

No, not just. No, not even just. No. I was even thinking about the tax structure from just being tradable over a very, very long period. If you can't sell it for 18 years, you effectively take it out of the, it's a little like what's the float of the stock. It actually effectively takes the stock out of the float. So there's, there's like a hundred different things that, that people inside treasury and other parts of the government and people like Brad Gerstner and other have, have been talking about. How could you make something work where you could get some of these kinds of big IPOs and other things into the.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's for the Trump accounts that are being created today and funded by the government. You know, anybody who's under the age of 18 can have an account. So I've set one up for my 14 year old. He'll be able to sell in four years. I hope he won't, but.

[Becky Quick]

Right. No, no. Yes, but I don't think you can put an individual stock.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Not right now. No, I can't.

[Becky Quick]

No.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This would only be for the ones that they're for newborns that they're allowed to put the stock into if they change the rules for that.

[Becky Quick]

Well, I think there's a question. Could you put specific stocks in any of them? I mean for anybody. I think the broader, the broader question is how do you incentivize, for example, people of great wealth like an Elon or a Warren or a Jensen or somebody who has a lot of stock, would like to donate it and would like, but would like to not just donate it and have it turn into cash.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, I want to donate, but I

[Becky Quick]

want to donate it and have it stay with the, with the kids that I'm donating it to. And how would you make that work? And can you make that work?

[Jeremy Grantham]

Yeah, it's a sexy idea for SpaceX, you know, because the kids are so young and it's. It's this, you know, the potential is in the future and limitless. To infinity and beyond, as Buzz would say. I mean, it's the size of the universe is the market potential. So I understand why it's kind of, wow, we need to. And I might live, I think. You know, I saw, you know, Clint still walking around. I saw a picture of Shatner yesterday. I monitor these things because these guys are in their mid-90s and maybe, you know, I hope I'm over 100, but people that are 6 years old might have a better chance than I do of seeing some of this stuff come to. Than all of us, actually. For Whom the Bell toll that's not. Because it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

My grandma's turning 100 years old in

[Jeremy Grantham]

August and we all live one day at a time, right? And we need to maximize it. It's weird that two people would get a haircut on the same day without.

[Becky Quick]

Without consulting each other.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Without consulting each other.

[Becky Quick]

High and tight. It looks nice.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Yeah. Both of us. We didn't enlist. We could potentially. You want to hear a dad joke? It used to be you had your ears lowered. You've heard that, right? Not to be 100 years.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I got them all cut.

[Jeremy Grantham]

I got them all cut. Both of them. There was an article this week that dad jokes do something positive for society. I can't remember what it was, but it gave me reason to continue. So hopefully. A pilot landed a JetBlue passenger plane at JFK airport yesterday morning and reported having hit a drone. Pilot said the incident happened at 3,000ft. On the plane's final approach, the jet landed safely. No damage was immediately reported. The pilot told air traffic control that the drone struck the plane right above the cockpit. Det. Blue said that the plane was removed from service for a post flight inspection which found no damage or evidence of a collision. Like you'd see something, doesn't it?

[Becky Quick]

These things are so tiny. I mean, if you looked at a DJI drone, it's so so.

[Jeremy Grantham]

But when you're going 300 miles an hour or whatever, it seems like if you hit a baseball there, if you hit a bird.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Same thing depending on where. A half hour later, a jfk, a helicopter pilot reported coming very close to a collision with what they called a remote controlled plane. That was a rather large remote controlled plane. They didn't hit it, but they came very near to it. And last week there was a pilot at Newark who also there was a collision with a drone then too.

[Becky Quick]

So my understanding of drones, or at least commercial drones that you can buy at the store like a DJI drone is that it has, you know, they've ring fenced the from a GPS perspective all the airports.

[Jeremy Grantham]

So that can't do that.

[Becky Quick]

Technically these things can't do that. But I don't know how hackable they are or breakable they are.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Probably ask AI I heard the pilot speaking to the helicopter. I mean the pilot of the helicopter speaking to air traffic control. There was a recording that was played of that and that air traffic control person said that they had not it didn't, that didn't show on their radar any of the stuff that was there. But you can imagine there's a lot of drones out there. You can imagine. So what we kind of always worried about the crowded skies and what would happen.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Yeah, a lot of room, you would think. But it takes one

[Becky Quick]

cheese will be next.

[Joe Kernen]

Coming up on Squawk Pod. To bet or not to bet on crypto the assets volatile year in Bitcoin's true value with Coinbase's John D'. Agostino.

[John D'Agostino]

Every 40 to 50 years we create as a global society new stores of value. So I would posit to you that Bitcoin has reached that threshold now. Could it go away like other stores of value have gone away?

[Joe Kernen]

Absolutely it could. But Dagostino doesn't expect it will. A lively discussion. Hey, is this stuff really worth anything? Right after this break.

[Podcast Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] Market Update podcast or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joe Kernen]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yes the same Monday.com every day brings

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[Joe Kernen]

Welcome back to Squawk Pod from CNBC with Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Here's Joe.

[Becky Quick]

It has been a volatile year for crypto so far, and joining us right now is John Dagostino. He's the head of institutional strategy for Coinbase. Good morning to you. We've all been trying to make sense of what's happening in bitcoin world in particular, but maybe the broader crypto world. But we've watched the price obviously drop pretty precipitously and I'd love to get your perspective on what you think is happening.

[John D'Agostino]

First of all, Andrew, great to be here. Always great to join you. You tend to invite me on when things are going badly, so I consider

[Becky Quick]

we like it when it's up or down. We're into. We're into the up part or the down part.

[John D'Agostino]

It's always great to be here when

[Becky Quick]

it's sort of this middling. That's when we're less interested.

[John D'Agostino]

Fair point. Who wants that? Look, there's no question from a price perspective, it's been brutal. Now, I will say we. We've seen this before. I was really entertained by the back and forth that you had the other day between Joe and Jeremy Grantham. Jeremy's a legend. He's an icon of enormous respect for him. I haven't so much read his letters over the years as devoured them, and particularly his commentary recently on price action and what that represents for blockchain and crypto. Now, I'm encouraged by the fact that his arguments and most of the arguments we're hearing now are not new, they're sort of recycled, really. For the past 15 years. We've gone through about six of these cycles now, during each of which bitcoin has achieved a new higher low, and then once the kind of retail panic has settled out, has gone on to achieve a new higher high. So that. That encourages me. The one thing that does surprise me about the commentary is when you read the GMO letters, kind of what sticks out is this message of resiliency, which, which I love. And even though value investing trailed growth for a Long time. The message was always retain conviction with your beliefs. There's this wonderful quote I'm going to paraphrase. The market is gloriously inefficient and wanders from fair price and your job is to survive. And so I would ask anyone making these arguments, is it, is it that insane that there would be hundreds of millions of people who have a deep conviction that an asic, which is a, the first and only digitally native portable store of value, which is effectively this marvelous consensus mechanism for storing energy and compute two of the most valuable commodities in the world, and that has turned roughly 00 in 2011 into roughly 30 million. Now, is it insane that they would have conviction in that position?

[Becky Quick]

So they may have conviction in that position. I think the question I would ask you is for those folks who, who got into bitcoin not at $10,000 but at $100,000, whether they should still have that conviction and what is the catalyst that would put them back in the black.

[John D'Agostino]

So in terms of everyone has to develop their own risk tolerance, but in terms of folks who are looking for conviction, again, I'll quote Jeremy, one of his, one of my favorites he says is the point here is that there's nothing wrong with waiting. Now, in terms of catalysts, you've had me on a couple of times. I don't tell people what to buy, I don't tell them when to buy it. So most people looking at, say, the clarity act passing as a essential catalyst. I have the luxury of being at Coinbase where I'm seeing what I call micro catalysts almost every day, stuff that doesn't really make the front page of the news. But the other day we just did the first stablecoin based payment for independent journalists to condense the time they take to receive money from their advertisements. From 90 days to one day, we've seen things like Scott Sonetta who was on your show, using blockchain and cryptocurrency to solve the problem of deepfakes via artificial intelligence. We've seen over 40 countries commit to buying bitcoin in some fashion for their national balance sheets or other. So I'm seeing every day a deluge of new institutional investors that are interested in the asset class. So I appreciate for folks who don't have that perspective, they're looking for some grand gesture or grand event. But for those of us who have the luxury of being on the inside, all we're, all we're seeing is steady growth. Even if the headlines don't match that.

[Jeremy Grantham]

You're nice you know, and very conciliatory. You're leaving out, you know, to call digital currency or crypto or Bitcoin is worthless as a steaming bucket of piss. And it shows, I think, a complete lack of any investigation or insight into what we're talking about the nature of money, about the nature of money in general. John, I mentioned, well, started to mention shells on an island in, you know, a thousand years ago, and just. Just a basic understanding of what a unit of anything represents. Nothing has. Gold isn't valuable because it's pretty and shiny and because you make rings out of it. There's six things you got to be scarce, durable, portable, verifiable and accepted. And every form of currency that's ever been invented or around or that is a store of value, Bitcoin has every one of those qualities and probably better in a lot of manners than a lot of other things. And I mean, that just looked to me like a totally uninformed, high level of ignorance about the whole. The whole nature of money.

[John D'Agostino]

Well, I have to be nice, too. I'm not as famous as.

[Jeremy Grantham]

I like that you're so nice, but, I mean, give me a break.

[John D'Agostino]

So I have to be nice. I'm not as famous as you were. Jeremy. Look, I've been. I come from traditional finance, and I think, if you recall, I used to be head of strategy for the world's largest commodities exchange, New York Mercantile Exchange. So I've been ever since I pivoted into digital assets and blockchain. I've been hearing this from my colleagues. I debated Nouriel Roubini at Carnegie hall roughly five years ago and had a wonderful time.

[Jeremy Grantham]

That's a waste of. That's a waste of time.

[John D'Agostino]

No, he's a dear friend. I think we have to listen to smart people who disagree with us. So here's the great news. Legends can be wrong. Icons can be wrong. Geniuses can be wrong. And I think at some point, whether it's 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 years, I prefer to let the track record.

[Jeremy Grantham]

John, you can be factually wrong, too. If you predict a crash and you finally get a crash and it goes down to a level that's still double where you started predicting the crash, what good is that?

[John D'Agostino]

Missing the 100% up to avoid the 10% down.

[Jeremy Grantham]

400%.

[John D'Agostino]

In Bitcoin's case, 10,000. But again, I'm sympathetic to folks. I mean, I've heard this, Joe. I heard when I was head of strategy at nymex. People forget. There was a very real effort to Just kill derivatives. It's kind of reminiscent of what we're seeing with prediction markets and blockchain. Back then there was just no need for natural gas derivatives. So forget about that processing plant that wants to finance it's going forward natural gas sales or purchases. We just didn't think we needed them because they were difficult to understand. So I've sort of seen this before from even very, very smart people and I just kind of chalk it up to they don't have time to look into everything because if they really took the time to do the work, I don't think they.

[Becky Quick]

John, I just, I just want to, I want to push back on the following. It's not so much that the argument is being made that, that there's no purpose for cryptocurrencies or blockchain at all. I think that almost everybody, and I want to say even Jeremy Grantham would, would appreciate there's a value proposition for something like an Etherium or other parts of the block chain where you actually need said currency, if you will, to operate the chain itself. The question is a different question about Bitcoin, given what it does or doesn't do, and the idea that yes, you can track it and yes, it may be like a shell or the store of value, though it's only a store of value if you value it. And that's, it's not just, just because I dig a hole in the ground doesn't mean that my energy that I used to dig that hole has some value to something, because you may not value that hole or you may have wished that I had made the hole across the street, on the other side of the street, where it would have had value. And so now we're into a very philosophical conversation about all of this. But I think the broader question I'm asking is not again, not for the folks who bought it at $10,000, it's the folks who bought it at $100,000. Folks who bought it at $120,000, it's the folks who were told that this was something that they should hold on to because it was going to a million dollars.

[Jeremy Grantham]

You could make the same argument for people that bought it 4,000 and it went to 20, then it went back to 2, and then it went to 70, then it went back to 16, then it went to 125. And now every single time, you can't, you can't all of a sudden claim you're vindicated for being skeptical just because it's still the last time. I think we were at 25,000. It's two and a half times above where that was last time that the Bears were claiming victory.

[Becky Quick]

Look, I'm. I'm asking questions because I think there's a whole group of people who want to know. I have no interest in this whatsoever, personally. I want to be very clear about that because you obviously have a direct interest in it. I believe Joe owns bitcoin.

[Jeremy Grantham]

I do.

[Becky Quick]

So I don't own anything on purpose because I want to be able to be completely independent, ask whatever I want and not tell you something's going up, going down for whatever reason.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Sometimes not owning it causes someone to be so bitter that they're never going to believe.

[Becky Quick]

I'm not bitter. I never would have. Look, my view as a journalist is I actually can't own these. Well, that's a luxury belief.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Then you can talk about it and never have any skin in the game and always predicting it to go down and never be hurt by it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

John, what do you think?

[Jeremy Grantham]

That's a luxury belief.

[John D'Agostino]

Andrew, just really quickly, I love this conversation. I've had it for 15 years, I'll have it for 20 more because it's important. The one thing I would take issue with in your statements, I don't actually think it's philosophical like your point is, right, if you dig a hole, no one will value it. But if by some far stretch of imagination hundreds of millions of people decide that that has value, then guess what, Andrew? It does. And every 40 to 50 years, we create as a global society new stores of value. So I would posit to you that bitcoin has reached that threshold now. Could it go away? Like other stores of value have gone away? Absolutely. Like other currencies have gone away. Absolutely. But where we stand right now, at least in my lifetime, the virality of that compute network, I really struggle to see it being unwound easily and in short term. But your value, your basic point is very good.

[Jeremy Grantham]

But what's back to gold, the value of gold, the reason everyone thinks it's valuable, valuable is not because you make jewelry out of it. There's nothing to do with it. That has nothing to do with it. It's because it can be used as a store of value because of the six things that I mentioned. And they share those characteristics.

[Becky Quick]

I get it. I get that there's a.

[Jeremy Grantham]

It's not about whether it's a value of it.

[Becky Quick]

All I'm asking is for those who are thinking about it either thinking about investing in it, have invested in it, want to Invest in it to try to understand what the model is. That would suggest it should go up from where it is today. Should go down from where it is today. What is, what is the, the, the trigger for any of this?

[Jeremy Grantham]

You've watched plenty of people buy stocks. I don't want to mention that. You know, pick on Comcast at at 65. What do you tell them at 22?

[Becky Quick]

Well, I would make the argument if I was at Comcast that I've now broken up the business. I can sell. I know, I know what I'm going to operate the business in a better way. Things are value this person a lot

[Jeremy Grantham]

of assets can be, can go down 70% and then go back up 150%. It happens all the time to all different asset classes.

[Becky Quick]

Totally. But typically, typically if there was a business you would say there's a rationale go to gold.

[John D'Agostino]

A company that business would trade a cash. It would trade a book value.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[John D'Agostino]

So if it trades at a 70 multiple, you are not assuming you can dissolve it for parts. So I think, I think what the reality is we value lots of weird things. We value lots of tough to value things. If all we did was value cash flows, I think the US Capital markets would be decidedly different.

[Jeremy Grantham]

They were selling a piece of art, that's for sure.

[John D'Agostino]

Or art or wine or sculptures or sports teams or anything else that, you know, look, the majority of the S and P, I'm sorry of New York Stock exchange listings are EBITDA negative. So if that, if that was the case again, all of those companies would be, would have negative stock prices. So again, these are all wonderful questions to have. We encourage it, we want to have these dialogues. We love that people are using investing in prediction markets and getting more and understanding the value of doing things on chain. And so I'll continue to be kind and I'll continue to want to have these conversations with anyone willing to have them.

[Becky Quick]

John, thank you for the conversation. Appreciate it.

[John D'Agostino]

Thank you.

[Joe Kernen]

Next on Squawk Pot, are you paying more now for groceries? Former Consumer Financial Protection Bureau head Rohit Chopra has a new job. He will start working on consumer protection in California and he's warning of a grocery price emergency nationwide.

[Rohit Chopra]

Policymakers want to just do things that have long term benefits and that's important. But there's also a real need for some short term relief.

[Podcast Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] Market Update podcast or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts. The Colonel's cooked up a new $10 bucket of the day just for you. Monday 24 nuggets for $10 Tuesday 8 piece fried chicken for $10 Wednesday 10

[Rohit Chopra]

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[Jeremy Grantham]

$10 Friday 24 nuggets for.

[Podcast Announcer]

Oh, you guessed it, didn't you? $10 the $10 bucket of the day deal every weekday only at KFC.

[Jeremy Grantham]

It's finger licking.

[Becky Quick]

Good prices and participation. Variable supplies last not available on third party ordering platforms.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[John D'Agostino]

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[Podcast Announcer]

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[Becky Quick]

on Monday.com

[Joe Kernen]

and we're back. This is Squawk Pod.

[Becky Quick]

Stand Andrew by in five seconds. Four, three, two, one, up. And Andrew Q. Is Mike. You're watching squashbox right here on cnbc. I'm Andrew Sorkin along with Joe Kernan and Becky Quick. Our next guest sounding the alarm on what he calls a grocery price emergency in the United States. Want to bring in Chopra, who served as head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Starting tomorrow, he's going to become the secretary of California's new business and consumer services agency. There's sort of a split screen situation going on around, around the country. On one end there's there's a lot of folks who are feeling the pinch. I think some of the things that you've been concerned about on the other end, there's a lot of folks who are watching the market and almost a I don't know if it's bizarre, but a complete disconnect. And I'm curious how you think about those two things.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, from outer space, obviously the US Economy looks like it's doing pretty good with employment trends and the stock market continuing to climb and climb and climb. But obviously the reality is much different. When you look at the average family, say of four people, even one making a very decent income, they no longer have the cushion that they had just two years ago. We have seen so many categories of their life, whether it is health care, whether it is energy and gas, or whether it is going to the grocery store. Each of that has pushed them and squeezed them and now they are running on fumes and racking up debt and

[Becky Quick]

so what are you suggesting the answer to all this is well, look, I

[Rohit Chopra]

served under both President Biden and President Trump and I think there is always a mistake, which is lots of times policymakers want to just do things that have long term benefits and that's important. You need to fix some of the long term structural reasons why things like beef or other key items have gotten so expensive. But there is also a real need for some short term relief. And whether it was tariffs or the war, people want some relief quickly. So we're going to need to do a lot both at the federal level, the state level, local level to figure out how not to just lower prices over the long term, but, but get some points on the board.

[Becky Quick]

But what does that mean, points on the board? And, and are you suggesting, by the way, are you in agreement with the President, he believes that, you know, gas stations effectively are gouging customers in this moment?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I mean that's pretty rich. Obviously his policies are the primary reason that gas prices have gone up so much. He has also.

[Becky Quick]

But, but let's take politics out of this. You made argument, the reason I'm raising this issue is you've made arguments over the years that banks have ripped people off, that all sorts of companies have gallops.

[Rohit Chopra]

Right.

[Becky Quick]

If you will. And so my question is putting aside your politics and the President's politics and as you I think rightly said you worked under both, though I'm not sure after the Supreme Court decision you would still be in that circumstance. What, what would you, what would you say to this gouging argument?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, that's certainly true. We saw in the aftermath of the pandemic. We also saw recent allegations of using algorithms to allow gas stations to collude on prices. We have seen this in the oil and gas industry. There is no question that you have to crack down on some of the so called innovation that is not actually giving people anything new or better. It is just driving up prices. We've seen that with outlandish fees where banks manipulate payments to trigger overdraft. We've got to do all that. And I do think there is importance of making sure there is fair and robust enforcement which we are not seeing right now. So there's lots of work we have to do to get prices lower. Both Andrew, on the, on the illegal gouging but also on these longer term structural issues where prices just have.

[Becky Quick]

But is that a supply chain story? Is that a competition story? What is that?

[Rohit Chopra]

So there's a few things. One, we do know that there is issues of concentration and pricing power. That's certainly one element of what we see in the beef market. That's the big item in the grocery store that people have complained about the most. We obviously see this in other places like supply chain. I don't know about you, but I am not sure that we ever have a industrial goal of growing a lot of coffee in America. Tariffs on things that we don't have any strategic reason to be putting on tariffs do lead to issues. So we also see other supply chain bottlenecks. We see companies in many ways engaging in different tactics, surveillance based pricing, personalized pricing. All of these are things that we can do to attack the issue and do it for people now rather than just over the long term.

[Becky Quick]

Okay, we're going to leave the conversation there. Thank you.

[Jeremy Grantham]

Appreciate it.

[Joe Kernen]

That is Squawk Pod for today. Thanks for listening. SquawkBox is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. You can tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern to get the smartest takes and analysis from our TV show right into your ears. Please follow Squawkpod wherever you get your podcasts. Have a great day and we'll meet you right back here tomorrow.

[Becky Quick]

Now we are clear. Thanks guys.

[Podcast Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] Market Update podcast or find Schwab Market Update. Wherever you get your podcasts.