House Minority Leader Jeffries & SpaceX Investor Mark Pincus 6/25/26

Summary

Squawk Pod Podcast Summary

Episode: House Minority Leader Jeffries & SpaceX Investor Mark Pincus
Date: June 25, 2026
Hosts: Andrew Ross Sorkin, Joe Kernen
Notable Guests: Mark Pincus (Zynga founder, SpaceX investor), Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (House Minority Leader)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intersection of technology, politics, and innovation through two major discussions:

1. A deep dive into the boom in AI chipmakers with takeaways for tech investing and innovation, including a conversation with Mark Pincus, famed founder of Zynga, early investor in SpaceX, OpenAI, and Anthropic.
2. A sharp examination of the evolving direction of the Democratic Party and American politics, featuring an interview with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, following progressive gains in New York City's Democratic primaries.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tech Stock Surge, AI Infrastructure, and the Debate on "The Middle" (02:14–16:01)

Why AI Drives Today's Market

• Micron and Qualcomm: Both stocks soared as long-term contracts and bullish AI narratives dominate.
• Micron: Locked in $100B in long-term revenue through 2030 via 16 major agreements—signals industry transformation (“not ‘boom and bust’ anymore”).
• Qualcomm: Now targeting $40B in non-handset (non-smartphone) revenue by 2029. New bets on data center CPUs for major hyperscalers.

Debate: Is the AI Buildout Infinite?

• Joe Kernen (12:55): "It’s never different this time. But maybe this time it’s different because boom and bust is all we ever talked about with memory and Micron. My question: does the AI build out get to the point where it’s built out, or are we going to keep going until we create God?"
• Christine Wang (14:00): Buildouts face real limits: labor shortages, permitting, and the physical timeline to erect facilities.
• Light-hearted speculation on “data centers in satellites” and mining in space—acknowledging rapid, unpredictable change.

The “Middle” in Politics and Markets

• Ongoing banter about occupying the political and market “center.”
• Andrew Ross Sorkin (15:26): "I just wish we could get to the middle of that seesaw. We could all be sitting closer to the middle..."

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2. Mark Pincus: Innovation at the "Speed of Play" (19:17–34:43)

Mindset for Innovators

• Mark Pincus (20:31):
  "So many people... have a winning instinct, but they’re probably never going to act on it. And of those who do, most will probably fail. ...This book, I hope for people, is like a cheat code."
• Framework:
  • Test more ideas in a week than an industry tests in a year.
  • Start with proven models (“good copying”), then innovate on top.
  • “Innovation is in the eyes of your users, not your peers.”

Investing in the Next Big Thing

• Early bets on SpaceX, OpenAI, Anthropic.
• Pincus (22:51):
  “There’s lots of paths to create huge companies... Look at Elon’s path or OpenAI—it was billions of dollars and years of capital... Most people can’t do that, but anyone can take an idea and turn it into something real over a weekend.”

Why Hasn’t AI Created a Killer Consumer App Yet?

• Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:36):
  “There has not been a new app or a new game or a new something... developed on the back of AI that has changed the course of the way the consumer works.”
• Pincus (27:05):
  "These unicorns, what I call Internet treasures, have not been invented yet."
• Prediction: Next-wave platforms exploiting “intelligence on tap” and unlimited tokens haven’t arrived—major opportunity remains.

Personal Habits & Political Identity

• Life Reflection Ritual: Pincus describes writing annual notes to himself, serving as a “time machine dialog” (28:11–29:15).
• Political Evolution:
  • Identifies as “mainstream” and “independent”—“socially liberal, fiscally conservative.”
  • Observes that in today’s climate, holding centrist views leads to being branded as right-wing in tech and business circles (31:51).
  • Critiques the political polarization:
    "It’s become such an identity thing. …I’m not afraid to just be an independent, free thinker.” (30:47)

On Prediction Markets & Gamifying Real Life

• Strong endorsement of platforms like Polymarket, connecting his gaming and real-life interests.
• Notes how gamification will be critical for future platforms—“my metaverse is making the virtual real.”

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3. Interview with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries (37:03–50:15)

The Democratic Primary Shift: Progressive Surge in NYC

• Incumbent Losses to Progressives:
  • Acknowledges progressive “energy,” but notes both ousted incumbents were themselves in the Progressive Caucus.
  • Jeffries (37:35):
    "Primaries are a way of life... every cycle a handful of incumbents are defeated."

Party Identity & Working with the Far-Left

• On collaborating with newly elected, more radical members:
  • Jeffries (40:39):
    "Her views are clearly not my views. …We believe that we’ve got to drive down the high cost of living... we have a broken health care system that we need to fix... corruption to clean up."
  • Reiterates "strong floor, no ceiling" vision of the American Dream:
    "You work hard, you play by the rules... you should be able to live an affordable life, a comfortable life, at minimum, a middle class life.” (41:08)

Facing Criticism Over the Party’s Direction

• Pressed on whether far-left messaging harms Democrats’ national brand:
  • Joe Kernen (42:54):
    “[Does] including someone in that tent that believes these things…solve what you just talked about... or is [it] a positive development in New York politics?”
  • Jeffries (42:58):
    “I’ve clearly rejected those things...not a ‘Dems will be Dems’ situation…”

Economic Concerns: Gas Prices, Cost of Living

• Points to high costs across the board (housing, groceries, childcare, healthcare), blames the former and current Trump Administration for economic malaise (44:21).
• Credits recent oil price decline to administration policies but says prices are “still much higher than the $2.98 [before the war]... impacting working- and middle-class Americans.” (47:02)

Taxing AI and Government Investment in Tech

• Open to studying ideas for taxing AI or taking public stakes in major AI companies.
• Announces new House Democratic Commission on Artificial Intelligence and the Innovation Economy, led by Reps. Gottheimer, Val Fu Xi, and Ted Lieu.
  • "The most important thing is making sure artificial intelligence as a technology changes lives for the better... we are going to have to deal with the job implications as it relates to workforce displacement. That will be a core issue." (49:29)

On Governing for the Center

• Skepticism over whether true centrism exists in American politics—ongoing, unresolved seesaw.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joe Kernen (12:55):
  “Does the AI build out, get to a point where it’s built out? Are we going to keep going until we create God?”
• Mark Pincus (27:05):
  "These unicorns, what I call Internet treasures, have not been invented yet."
• Andrew Ross Sorkin (32:17):
  "That’s what I always thought the country wanted—socially liberal ideas and fiscally conservative ideas. That that was the marriage."
• Jeffries (40:39):
  "Her views are clearly not my views... What brings Democrats together is... solving the affordability crisis... fixing healthcare... cleaning up corruption."
• Joe Kernen (41:46):
  "But you could argue now I’m called right... I’m a Chicago liberal. I’m just a normal mainstream person."
• Mark Pincus (31:44): “I want to find a right-wing founder in San Francisco, which you’re the only one left. Can I talk to you? I’m not right wing. I’m a Chicago liberal. I’m just a normal, mainstream person.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• AI Stocks & AI Boom Discussion: 02:14 – 16:01
• Mark Pincus Interview: 19:17 – 34:43
• Progressive Wins in NYC – Democratic Primary Reactions: 37:03 – 50:15

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Conclusion

This episode delivers both an insider’s look at the tides of AI innovation and investment, and a candid, at times pointed, examination of today’s complicated political “middle.” Mark Pincus provides practical insights for innovators and investors, while Hakeem Jeffries navigates the tough questions about ideology and unity in the Democratic Party against a changing electoral backdrop. Throughout, the question lingers: where is the true center—and is anyone really occupying it?

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Recommended For:

• Investors eyeing the AI buildout
• Entrepreneurs and tech founders seeking innovation strategies
• Political observers grappling with where the Democratic Party—and America—are headed
• Anyone curious about the next phase of tech and politics at the national level

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Hakeem Jeffries]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Bring in show music please.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod. Who's in the middle? Really a question we can't get away from. Today talking about the politics of tech policy with Mark Pincus. The Zynga founder and entrepreneur is out with a new book on the speed of life.

[Mark Pincus]

These unicorns, what I call Internet treasures, have not been invented yet.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And a Democratic primary that shook up a few incumbents in New York City in February, favor of candidates more and proudly on the left. The Democrats leader in the House, Brooklyn's Hakeem Jeffries.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

The Democratic Party at its best, the country at its best believes in a strong floor and no ceiling. In other words, you work hard, you play by the rules in this country, you should be able to live an affordable life, a comfortable life at minimum, a middle class life.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Plus, memory chip stocks surge.

[Joe Kernen]

Does the AI build out, get to a point where it's built out? Are we going to keep going until we create God?

[Narrator/Announcer]

Does it make a market?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So you're saying this time is different?

[Joe Kernen]

Yes, I AM.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It's Thursday, June 25th. Squawk Pod begins right now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand Andrew by 3, 2, 1, up and Andrew Q. Good morning and welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC. We're live the NASDAQ market site in Times Square. I'm Andrew Ross Sorkin, back in the chair with Joe Kernan. Becky's off today, so it's just the boys. Nice to see you, sir. Good to see you after an eventful week and a half.

[Joe Kernen]

Well, I don't have any shorts. You would need to go on a dissect Every day for you because you're on, you know, Piers Morgan, you're at conferences with or you just got a lot going on.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I've been working as they say.

[Joe Kernen]

There was vacation in there.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There was a little vacation. Was there a week in the middle?

[Joe Kernen]

Was there a week?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It was a week in the middle. So.

[Joe Kernen]

But have you been working for me and for.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

For Squad? I work for this network every single.

[Joe Kernen]

We've got a lot of different domains involved. Right. As a renaissance man, it's all in

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

the name of Joe Kern.

[Joe Kernen]

You're like no, you'd like an octopus.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And then there's the energy story which may I'm not sure has actually impacted this piece of it just yet. You'd think it would.

[Joe Kernen]

This is what's happening in the markets is. It really is. But this is good to WTI falling back below its level from before the Iran war. It happened fast, didn't it? We spoke with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen about falling energy prices and the broader economy just yesterday on squawk box we

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

went into this on very strong energy footing that on very strong capex cycle from both the AI and the tax bill.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

The US Economy has really performed and

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

we're going to get to the other side of this conflict as you were just showing. Energy prices are coming down, inflation is going to drop and the economy I think is going to be accelerating on a non inflationary basis the for the rest of the year and for the

[Hakeem Jeffries]

rest of the president's term.

[Joe Kernen]

So that's the backdrop. It's interesting to watch sort of the debasement trades, dollar trades and I think I saw gold. I don't know if we showed it but that has not performed well. Bitcoin has not performed well.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The dollar Bitcoin back up about what was 61,000 bucks right now I think we're back down. Well no, but. And that. Yes. No. Yesterday we were at 5059, got to

[Joe Kernen]

59 went all the way back to about 60, 68 or so back to 60 or 59 up a little bit this morning. But Kevin was oil is not going to be the headwind that people were worried about. It's happened faster than people thought. I think we'll see if gas prices come down at the pump. They're about 385 or something I think. And you saw Trump yesterday, President Trump worrying about or at least raising the idea of of gouging it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, I was going to ask you about that.

[Joe Kernen]

I don't.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What is your sense about that?

[Joe Kernen]

I understand he operates no, but, but given, given. I don't, I don't think that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And it's given, given the criticism and conversations that we've had over the years, people like, like Elizabeth Warren. No, I didn't. Were out there screaming about gouging and.

[Joe Kernen]

No, I understand it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

These conversations in the morning where you would say, you would go, I don't,

[Joe Kernen]

I don't agree with it. I don't agree. Well, I mean, we don't need to go back on, you know, obviously there's a lot of things on the populist side. When President Trump thought like this housing bill, I'm not even that disappointed in the House. It's bipartisan, but there's so many things in there that I think are populist. And we've talked about that. The gouging thing, when he talks about the oil companies, there's a difference between who's selling the gasoline and who's producing and exploring for the oil. There's overlap, obviously, but there's refiners, there's crack spreads. There's reasons that prices don't come down immediately, some of which may include feet, you know, some feet dragging. I think like the prime rate, when that goes up, it goes up fast. When it comes down, the banks are, you know, like in molasses.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So it's how much of it is feature lagging versus concern that it's going to go back up.

[Joe Kernen]

I don't think that's so I think that you can check whether it's going back up by looking at the futures. That's. That's what, that's what we're looking at. So, you know, until it. Rick Santelli, while you were out, has been on fire talking about how he was saying that the markets that dictate and people that didn't think that oil knew what was happening and it was ignoring the fundamentals that the only thing you ever look at, where the rubber meets the road is in the markets. And oil all along was telling that this was nearing an end because the

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

story was that he was going to walk. Who was going to walk that the administration was going to balk on Iran and going to try to make.

[Joe Kernen]

Well, I don't get any of that. I've actually, I spoke to the president off the record, and he said, so what do you think? And the more I thought about it, I think it's kind of like to a degree, cutting your losses. I think he went in for what was what he thought was a good reason, and a lot of people agreed with the reason I would have liked to have seen everything happened. I would like to see a new regime and free Iranian people in a beautiful Middle East. I'd like to see all that stuff. I'd like to see no nuclear weapons. I'd like to see, I'd like to see a lot of stuff. Not all that's going to happen, but at this point a pragmatic end I think makes a lot of sense. Not another forever. We're talking about four months, not three or four years. Talking about no boots on the ground. It's already going to, we need a supplemental. We'll talk to Jim Jordan about that for $87 billion or whatever it is. So we already got to pay that. I think at this point probably the best move, their naval, the navy's gone over there. They none of the centrifuges work anymore. We might get inspectors and we got 60 days to try and get a good deal. But I said, you know what, instead of being a neocom, I'm with where you are taking this at this point and I think oil validates that. But you know, this is all the most important thing today is that Micron was supposed to.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No way.

[Joe Kernen]

It's up so much. No way. It was supposed to be able to, but it wasn't going to be able

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

to while you're out.

[Joe Kernen]

No way. Everybody said it's going to be a great number but not enough to satisfy the street.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let's talk about so on the street to two prominent firms and one of them is Micron, indicating there could be much more to come from the AI build out Christina parts. And Evolos is watching Micron and Qualcomm which are surging this morning in a huge way. In large part what you're seeing in the NASDAQ right now. Tell us about what's happened here.

[Christine Wang]

Yeah, watching it and I was at the investor day yesterday for Qualcomm, but memory has always been just been boom and then bust. But Micron is essentially telling everyone that's completely over and the Stock is up 16% because Wall street is buying it this time. The reason is 16 long term customer agreements now signed, 14 of them which are locking in roughly $100 billion in minimum guaranteed revenue through 2030. So that's, you know, the next five years. Supp also just got tighter. Management just pushed the shortage timeline past 2027 blaming fabs, workers, energy. Samsung, you talked about SK Hynix are already catching a bid in Korea off of this surging and moving South Korean markets higher and now over To Qualcomm where shares are also up about 12% after its investor day here in New York yesterday. A new target of $40 billion in non handset revenue. So that's non smartphone revenue by 2029, nearly double its prior forecast with roughly 15 billion do of that from data center alone. A completely new category. I asked CEO Cristiano Amon just how he locks down supply to deliver on those numbers given everything we just heard from Micron.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Listen, I have secured the capacity from

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

the manufacturer as well as memory. I also have memory for what we do in accelerator. So we're excited about that and I

[Hakeem Jeffries]

think, you know, we're very confident in

[Joe Kernen]

the forecast we provided.

[Christine Wang]

Does that mean that you're signing long term agreements with.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We always, we always.

[Christine Wang]

Three years, five years.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

We always do that.

[Christine Wang]

So he's securing capacity at TSMC and signing these long term agreements that we heard about from Micron. Qualcomm also named Meta as its first customer for its new data center CPU and said it signed two hyperscaler deals for custom chips. One in the United States, one Chinese. I pushed back as a bytedance Amazon. You know he didn't say anything but those are usually, those are the two presumed names. The bottom line is that you have two chip companies, two bets on the same AI buildout. Micron is betting it could break its own boom and bust cycle. Qualcomm is betting it could break its dependence on the smartphone.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Guys, we're going to see what's going to happen here. I have one question I've been thinking about especially with the Micron and the Qualcomm's the world. Micron even more so. Do you say to yourself if you're a shareholder in Micron that this is like the most amazing management team and they're killing it. Or do you say to yourself that they got super lucky to even be in this position. The wind is at their back.

[Joe Kernen]

They didn't expand production in a remarkable way.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And therefore. And they and their end. And not only was the wind at the back now given what's happened now, they didn't expand production. So that's actually on the downside.

[Joe Kernen]

Where are their margins going now, Christine? Because it was like ridiculous what they were this quarter and they forecast what, 90% for next quarter or something?

[Christine Wang]

87 which is absolutely insane for any type of AI company. To both of your points, they are very conservative on their build out. They are increasing their capex to at least over $40 billion next year. 20 billion of that is going to go to construction and clean rooms, which is, it takes a long time to build. But to your point, Andrew, yes, they are, they are, you know, gaining an advantage because of the current market dynamics. The demand is so high for all of these AI type memory chips and they just didn't, they weren't prepared for the supply. You can almost apply that same type of scenario for int. Intel said that, you know, two quarters ago that their CPUs were just flying out the door. They weren't expecting that and they couldn't meet up with demand. So that was a symptom of the actual market economies as opposed to, you know, a company that is pushing their CPUs forward. So I think in this sense Micron is benefiting. They're saying it's no longer a commoditized product because they are signing these long term agreements to give them revenue visibility and they can determine the pricing right now, which is great for them to keep those margins. Up to your point, Joe. But overall all, yes, they are taking advantage of the current market conditions.

[Joe Kernen]

It's never different this time. But maybe this time it's different because boom and bust is all we ever talked about with memory and with Micron and general. My question, does the AI build out get to a point where it's built out or do you. Are we going to keep going until we create God?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, this is, this is the, this

[Joe Kernen]

is the largest question and that's blasphemous to say.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, but this is the larger question about AI infrastructure at all, which is is there an end state?

[Joe Kernen]

That's right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

If there is no end state and you just have to keep plowing capital in, then the math doesn't math that it just can't.

[Joe Kernen]

I would, I would hope that you would have to keep doing that for companies like Micron that the build out never ends.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Sure. But how could that, how could that ever be?

[Joe Kernen]

Because the payoff is so good that

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

you so good you just constantly.

[Joe Kernen]

Sooner or later we got.

[Christine Wang]

There's not. Guys.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah.

[Christine Wang]

There are restrictions though and that's the fact that the labor force is just not up to par. You have so many permits. You saw that with the delays with Micron's clay plant in New York. It's been delayed so many times and I think maybe the market is not accounting for how long this is actually going to take. And then that can apply to Elon Musk's tariff. Right. He's planning on building all of these new chips. He's never really been in that chip industry before. In extremely short amount of time. The executives I spoke to, they believe in his capabilities. They just don't believe that he can turn these chips around in such a short amount of time. So I think maybe the market is not taking into account how long these actual buildouts take and the hurdles, especially here in the United States.

[Joe Kernen]

I think we got to just expand our mind to all kinds of different things. I mean now it's not just this planet anymore. Now we've got to take into account the whole fricking universe that are going to have data centers. You know, we're going to have satellites with data centers inside the satellite like.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So you're saying this time is different?

[Joe Kernen]

Yes, I just. We had Lafont on the other day. You were an infinite. People are thinking about what the world's going to look like five and ten years from now and maybe nobody knows, but some people have a better idea than others. I have no idea. I didn't predict any of this. He bought GE Vernova three years ago and we're finally doing segments on it now after it's tripled because of all the power. Buying land for data centers. Would you know where to buy, Andrew? Based on permits, based on proximity to the workforce you want. You'd have to go scour land opportunities where data centers can be, where the electricity is going to be able to go.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's been going on the last.

[Joe Kernen]

I know that's what these companies have been doing. Well, I'm just, I'm just coming up to speed on it just like I am that we actually are going to have things happening off this planet. Maybe even mining. Is that possible?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think all of that stuff is possible but that is like 10, 20 years from now, 30 years. That's not a tomorrow story.

[Joe Kernen]

Well, we're going to, you know, we're going to enjoy watching that together on this show.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I hope so really. For your sake. For your sake.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Hey, Cheese will be next.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Still to come on Squawk Pod Zynga founder, venture investor and author Mark Pincus what he's learned from past innovation revolutions and the changes still to come.

[Mark Pincus]

In this one, we thought that Amazon and E Commerce was going to wipe out all retail and it turns out it didn't. And in each era it's non zero sum. We've seen more jobs, more growth, we keep having record low unemployment.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Plus the evolving politics of America and of AI right after this.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

Not every sale happens at the register

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

before AT&T business Wireless checking out customers

[Narrator/Announcer]

on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sale or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Sometimes.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This is Squawk Pod.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand Joe by three, two, wipe up to him his mic.

[Joe Kernen]

Thank you. You're watching Squawk Box on cnbc. I'm Joe Kernan along with Andrew Ross Sorkin. Here we are. How's it feel?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Feels good.

[Joe Kernen]

Good to be back.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It feels good. I'm on. I'm on Europe time. So this is like super, super late in the day where this is lunch.

[Joe Kernen]

So you feel awake then?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm awake.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm very awake.

[Joe Kernen]

Did you check your thing?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

My oura ring. You really don't want to know about what was going on with the oura ring on this trip?

[Joe Kernen]

Oh, no.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

My aura.

[Joe Kernen]

Today you take it out.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm on an 82 without me there.

[Joe Kernen]

Who do you take it out on?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

82? 82. But I had. I had a couple of days. 60s, 60s. And I had a sleep day. That was in the 30s. I've never had that before. Turning ideas into products that people love. That is the concept behind Life at the Speed of Play, a new book by billionaire investor investor and Zynga founder Mark Pincus. Mark joins us now to talk about his book and so much more, by the way. He's got investments in so many different companies right now. It's unbelievable how you score.

[Mark Pincus]

Only hardware investment ever. And you have my luck. That one worked.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And it worked. And apparently you have an okay reading this morning.

[Mark Pincus]

I had to work my ass off to get to a 79.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What does that mean? You had to go to sleep.

[Mark Pincus]

I went to bed at 9:30.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And you're drinking Pellegrino water. That's.

[Mark Pincus]

I need a coffee.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Coffee. We got to get you a coffee. But let's talk about this before we get to all these investments that you've made, which are paying off in crazy ways given what's happening with AI right now. This is called life at the speed of play. And this is sort of a mantra for you about how you've lived your life.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And, you know, we're all trying to figure out how to live our life. We're looking at the. Our rings and everything else, but also how to create great businesses. What's the concept?

[Mark Pincus]

Well, the concept is that so many of people watching this right now have an idea, they have a winning instinct, and they're probably never going to act on it. And then those who do will probably fail. And what I realized over my career is that we can fundamentally change our odds of success. And this book, I hope for people, is like a cheat code.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, so give us a little bit of the cheat of the cheat code.

[Mark Pincus]

Okay. The premise, and I created a whole course at Stanford on this is that we have winning instincts. Like, I started one of the first social networks before meta, before Facebook, and I still managed to fail. I had clearly a winning instinct, but we put a losing idea on top of that, and we don't keep testing and looking. And so the, the premise is you have a winning instinct and a losing idea. The.

[Joe Kernen]

The path.

[Mark Pincus]

The frameworks in this book are that you should test more ideas in a week than an industry test in a year. And follow my framework I call Proven Better New. Start with what already works and then find your innovation zone on top of that. And too many people fail for the wrong reasons.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So you think that you actually. But then you're getting into this idea of copying. Some people say you shouldn't be copying folks, but you sort of have a concept which is like, start with a good copy.

[Mark Pincus]

Yeah, it's Peter Till. We call it a moral arbitrage. And we see Zuckerberg doing it every day. He just announced, I think that he's

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Going to do prediction markets.

[Mark Pincus]

Prediction markets.

[Joe Kernen]

Right, right.

[Mark Pincus]

And so there's, you got to get over that because the innovation is in the eyes of our users, not our peers. And so the, the innovation is how can you take something that people already love in the world and make it better?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, but here's a question. You've made investments in companies like Space X and OpenAI and Anthropic and I could argue to you none of those were really a copy of anything. I mean they were truly novel and does it does the most novel stuff is that to really sort of shoot the moon. And maybe the argument is you're not, you don't have to shoot the moon to be successful, but to shoot the moon. Can it start with a copy?

[Mark Pincus]

It's, it's a great question. There's lots of paths to create huge companies and, and I start the book saying that we're on the brink of a future life. This Peter play where we're all going to live like Elon, where we can tweet something into existence. But if you look at Elon's path, or if you look at OpenAI, it was billions and billions and billions of dollars of capital and years and years and years to then have an overnight success. And that is an amazing path that's not available to, to most people. But this is, and we're at, we're in an era where anybody can take an idea and turn it into something real over a weekend.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And you can do that with. I go back for a second. How did you get in early on SpaceX and anthropic and OpenAI for example,

[Mark Pincus]

I, I, I thought these were big ideas.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You think it was crazy.

[Mark Pincus]

I created a fund with Reid Hoffman called Re Invent.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I remember.

[Mark Pincus]

And we said, I think we did

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

an interview during the pandemic about it.

[Mark Pincus]

Yeah, we did, we did. And, and by the way, the fund is now done. Well, it invested in Space X and our premise was that in the future there's going to be venture like upside from big companies that we can go into companies that already have achieved scale, product, market fit and see 10x in the case of Space X, you know, 100x returns at companies that, and that at the time was a novel idea because growth capital was about a 3x return. And so we were looking for these large mature companies, seemingly mature, like Joby, like Space X, that their biggest upside was in the future.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do you think that if these companies succeed on the AI front that it is a mass sort of benefit economic boon for the country and the world or do you see it as a winner and loser scenario given? I just got back from, from Europe and I was in Cannes where the whole debate was very much in the sort of context of these commencement addresses and the booing that was taking place. Sort of this social anxiety about what it's going to do to the country and to the world.

[Mark Pincus]

Yeah, well, I'm an AI maximalist. Today is a good day to be an AI Max list. If I come in yesterday you would have looked at me like I was crazy. And now with Micron it's a good day, right? Look, having like you guys, I lived through these eras from mobile phone to Internet to I mean the original mobile phone to, to the smartphone. And what I've seen is in each era there's fear. We thought that Amazon and E Commerce was going to wipe out all retail and it turns out it didn't. And in each era it's non zero sum. We've seen more jobs, more growth, we keep having record low unemployment and so I believe will there be some dislocation? Yes. Have we seen it so far? No. So there's more job openings in computer science now than a year ago.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Why do you think we've had I think pretty great I now for about a year, year and a half maybe. I don't know how long you think it's really been at the level you created Zynga mobile games on the phone. Unbelievable. There has not been a new app or a new game or a new something. Really?

[Mark Pincus]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's been developed on the back of AI that has changed the course of the way the consumer works. I'm sort of surprised. I think myself something was going to show up on the doorstep because someone's going to create something that's so clever and so out of the box and so wild. And yes, people are probably programming a lot of the games now. I don't know how much of you think of them are hard coded or actually being done by, by Claude for example, but no one's come up with the next thing.

[Mark Pincus]

I agree.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Why?

[Mark Pincus]

Well, that's also part of what my book is about which is if you look at the front of your iPhone, we could each show what's on the homepage of our iPhone. Mine is half empty and then the half that's full is full of generic apps, of podcasts, weather, calendar. And what it tells me is that these, these unicorns, what I call Internet treasures, have not been invented yet. I mean that, that the, the idea of intelligence on tap, I mean the rethinking. What would the weather app be, or calendar or even Instagram in a world where you have unlimited tokens, unlimited AI, it's. It's not been invented yet. So that's why I. I'm so optimistic.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You do. Something, by the way, personally, that I found fascinating between Russia, Shana, Yom Kippur, every year you spend 10 days writing notes to yourself about your life for the past year.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah, what.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What happens in that process is that a little bit you remember years ago, Bill Gates would say that he would, like, go away for two weeks a year to, like, think about the world. That's where he could come up with as big. Is that what this is for you?

[Mark Pincus]

In a way. But it's more pragmatic than that. It's. I call it my Book of Life, and I've been writing in it since 1994. And it's really like, in some ways, like a time machine, you can have a dialog with yourself over time. And I write about my first. I read all the past years and what my hopes are and dreams were. And it can be painful over the course of your life because I'm like, next year. I'm a launch daughter. I've been saying that for 20 years. I'm like, okay, I don't really trust you anymore, Mark. You're not partnering with your future self. And what you start to realize is, okay, what can I. What can I commit to for this year that I wouldn't have done, that I will actually thank myself for later? What's a small.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So if you go back and look, is it. Is there more disappointment at the end of every year because you had such high. I mean, I think of you as an ambitious guy who's got big plans and ideas. So I imagine you put down lots of stuff that you really want to get done, and I imagine you get a couple of them done, but maybe not all of them.

[Joe Kernen]

You've evolved politically, too, I think. What did you write down?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, what were you writing that's interesting

[Joe Kernen]

three years ago, about Trump and what do you. What do you.

[Mark Pincus]

It's funny that.

[Joe Kernen]

And what you said, Bill Gates. That takes on a whole new meaning now. What he's been thinking about on sabbaticals, I think. But what.

[Mark Pincus]

Well, I actually.

[Joe Kernen]

You're a big wealth tax guy.

[Mark Pincus]

Well, I. I believe in capitalism and free markets, and I don't believe you're

[Joe Kernen]

going to have to leave. We're in New York City right now.

[Mark Pincus]

Yeah, I know. Is it okay to say that?

[Joe Kernen]

No.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You can say it.

[Joe Kernen]

You didn't say it.

[Mark Pincus]

Just not loud. This is like a very small whisper space.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's just, Just the three of us. There's nobody else listening.

[Mark Pincus]

Okay.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah.

[Mark Pincus]

Just between us. Yeah. I'm one of these people that still believes in. In capitalism and free markets and freedoms and Western values and. And look, I'm not on any team. I mean, and I'm very clear about that on my expo.

[Joe Kernen]

You're not maga, are you?

[Mark Pincus]

I'm not maga and I'm not a Democrat. I'm.

[Joe Kernen]

And I'm not saying that in a bad way. I'm just wondering whether we could bond. Yeah.

[Mark Pincus]

No. I don't know. It's become such a identity thing. I get kicked out.

[Joe Kernen]

I'm not afraid. I'm really not.

[Mark Pincus]

I'm not afraid to just be an independent, free thinker. And I'm like, you know what? These parties keep shifting Democrats.

[Joe Kernen]

There's a lot of danger in being a free thinker and accept expressing those thoughts.

[Mark Pincus]

Yeah, I know. A lot of people. A lot of danger.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, but don't you think that what's happened, and I don't know if you'll agree with what I was about what I was saying. We're talking about what's happened New York City, in terms of the politics here. We're going to talk to Hakeem Jeffries in a moment. But isn't this a function I've always wanted? I mean, look, this is personal, that. I've always wanted us to just be as close to the middle as humanly possible. But, you know, in an environment where you have things that go fully one way, perhaps you could argue on the right side, then the left reacts and gets even farther on the left. And then. No, no. And then you get this, this sort of extreme.

[Joe Kernen]

I am in the middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I know, but you're not in the middle.

[Joe Kernen]

No, I am in the middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You are not in the middle.

[Joe Kernen]

Yes, I am. When the left, when we're talking. Did you read any of these things? This person wants, this person that got elected. Sure, I'm in the middle, but I'm

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

in the middle on a relative basis to that.

[Mark Pincus]

But you could argue now I'm called right. I have. Good.

[Joe Kernen]

That's what I'm telling you.

[Mark Pincus]

I want to find a. A right wing, you know, founder in San Francisco, which you're the only one left. Can I talk to you? I'm like, I'm not right wing. I'm a Chicago liberal. I'm just a normal mainstream person. We all wanted socially liberal ideas and fiscally and economically responsible.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And what's so interesting. So that's what I always thought the country wanted, socially liberal ideas and fiscally conservative ideas. That that was the marriage. And for whatever reason, the lesson if you look at all these polls is it's actually the opposite that socially the country is actually much more conservative and for whatever reason, fiscally much more. Arguably liberal even. I think, I mean, liberal used to be. Seems to be the.

[Joe Kernen]

It's a different thing now.

[Mark Pincus]

Well, but they elected Trump, so. So when we say that's what they want twice and maybe three times, there was no chance Trump could be elected. So I'm not sure that you know the polls.

[Joe Kernen]

No, they don't. And we had Kaushi on yesterday. And have you seen this, Capal? I'm going to show you this. Yeah, because they, they and he told us, Tarek yesterday told us to sift through all the crap that you hear mainstream media, everything that you hear echo chambers on both sides of social media. There's a way of actually looking at what the wisdom of the crowd is saying about where the country is. Right. Would have never predicted Trump this last election. Would have never predicted him in the first election. But this would. But polls and everything else, never.

[Mark Pincus]

The market did predict. Yeah, my daughter was in some. I'm going to show you, daughter was in some betting pool and she took every poly market pick by state and she won.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So we got to go. If you were starting a new company today, a gaming company, that would prediction markets be it? What do you think of prediction?

[Mark Pincus]

I love prediction markets. I. I love gamifying real life. My thing is my metaverse is making the virtual real. That's what farmville was. And so the poly markets being able to gamify life and be able to bet and be right and get paid for it is. Is awesome. That's why I invest in polymarket.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

By the way, they have a great new ad campaign and if you saw it with Rick Rubin. Did you see this? Do you see this?

[Mark Pincus]

No, but Rick Rubin would be perfect.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It is on blue. I will show it to you during the commercial.

[Mark Pincus]

I will say we should gamify the ordering. You and I should compete.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I've been telling our friend Tom Hale, who's the CEO of that company, that we need to gamify the whole thing. I'll get on your circle. You can get onto our circles. We'll do it. Okay. Mark Pincus. The book is called Life at the Speed of Play.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Next on Squawkpot. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries on the results of the Democratic primaries in his own home community of New York.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Am I going to agree with every single member on the Democratic or Republican side on every issue? Of course not. But there are members, you know who were just or on their way, you know, into the Congress right now who you know I have a long track record of having worked with, including people like Brad Lander.

[Narrator/Announcer]

What the results tell us about the future of the Democratic Party in a midterm election year right after this. Not every sale happens at the register

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

before AT&T business Wireless checking out customers

[Narrator/Announcer]

on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sale or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Sometimes.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Hakeem Jeffries]

why

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end. Huh, Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace.

[Joe Kernen]

Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Nibbles would have loved you like a brother.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

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[Joe Kernen]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

the ones you trust.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Hakeem Jeffries]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Hakeem Jeffries]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

welcome back to Squawk Pod.

[Joe Kernen]

You're watching Squawk Box on cnbc. I'm Joe Kernan along with Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This week's New York City primary results showing a lot of energy coming from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Joining us right now for what it means for Democrats, what it means for New York, what it means for the country. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. Good morning to you. It's nice to see you. I think we've all been trying to make sense of what's just happened here and what I think is fair to say a lurch towards a more progressive left. And I'm curious, given where you think you sit among the Democrats, what you think's happened and what you think it means.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, good morning. Great to be with you. You know, I think it's important to remember of course, that the two incumbent Democratic members of Congress who lost, Adriano Espaillat and Dan Goldman, were both members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. These are progressive leaning districts. And listen, my view has always been with respect to primaries is that it's a way of life in the United States House of Representatives. And as part of representative democracy in the House, we stand for reelection every two years. That's it. We have a two year employment contract and the voters have an opportunity to change direction. And often what we've seen in the House of Representatives every cycle is that a handful of incumbents have been defeated. It happened in New York City two days ago. I of course stood behind my colleagues, Representative Espion and Representative Goldman and I know they're going to finish strong over the next six months.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But what does it say about the party, by the way? What does it say about New York? We always talk about this as a capitalism of a capital of capitalism. I would always argue that there was sort of a tacit agreement within the city that, you know, people might vote for socially liberal policies on the social side but relatively try fiscally at least, capitalistic on the other. The folks that won are vocal and out there about what they think of capitalism and of corporations and of business.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Listen, Richie Torres also won re election decisively. Grace Meng won reelection decisively. Yvette Clark won re election decisively. In New York's 17th congressional district, Kate Connelly emerged. She's a patriotic war veteran who served this country ably and she's going to go on to defeat Mike Lawler in November. That perhaps is the most important outcome relative to the general election. Clearly that came out of the results in New York. And Michael Lasher, you know, won a competitive four way race to serve the Upper west side and the Upper east side. He of course is someone who's close to to Jerry Nadler and worked for Michael Bloomberg along with Kathy Hochul.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Look, I get the argument. Both parties like to say they have a big tent and maybe there's extremes on either side. My question is how are you going to work with some of these folks? I want to just read you. This is from the Wall Street Journal. This is Chevalier, who as you know, just won. Was the leader of the anti Israel protests at Columbia university after the 2023 Hamas massacre. She was for Hamas, they write. She called for abolishing police, prisons and borders. She called Joe Biden. She called Joe Biden a rapist and a war criminal and said that the US Is occupied Native American land. And called the country a f ing disgrace. And also favors seizing private property. What do you make of that?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Her views are clearly not my views. And that should be obvious to everyone in terms of what brings Democrats together. Listen, we believe that we've got to drive down the high cost of living. We've got to solve this affordability crisis. It's not a hoax. There are far too many people in this country who are working hard, they're playing by the rules, and they can't thrive. In fact, they can barely survive. That's not acceptable in the wealthiest country in the history of the world. We think we have a broken health care system that we need to fix and we certainly have to clean up corruption. The smash and grab program that Donald Trump has been running, the largest pay to play scheme in the history of the country, is completely and totally unacceptable. Let me also make clear, I think that the Democratic Party at its best, the country at its best believes in a strong floor and no ceiling. In other words, you work hard, you play by the rules in this country, you should be able to live an affordable life, a comfortable life, at minimum, a middle class life. There should be no ceiling, in fact, to the success that you're able to achieve. But at the same period of time, there should be a strong floor. That's what the best of America has always been. And that's Social Security, that's Medicare, that's Medicaid, that's the Affordable Care act, that's veterans benefits, that's nutritional assistance, the very that Republicans are trying to destroy right now.

[Joe Kernen]

I remember last time you're on and you said almost the same thing that you just said. And we all nod and I know it takes time from the interview and everything, but. But it doesn't really answer the question that Andrew said. We all agree with what you just said, but it totally shifted from, from what we're talking about is whether when the Democratic Party includes someone in that tent that believes these things. I don't think any of those things are going to solve what you just talked about or an answer to any of our problems that you delineate so eloquently. They were saying you're next about Hakeem Jeffries. You're next. You're next. You're next. You can't, you can't think this is, this is a positive development in New York politics. Can you? And all. They'll just, you know, Dems will be Dems or something like that. I don't, I don't see how you can say that.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

You need to, you need to reject,

[Joe Kernen]

you need to reject those things.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

I think, first of all, first of all, I've clearly rejected those things. That's number one. Number two, and my record speaks for itself. This is not a Dems will be Dems situation. Donald Trump is the president of the United States of America right now. Are you kidding me? He just actually detonated a bipartisan housing bill that would help build housing in this country that is affordable for everyday Americans who are drowning and suffocating in Donald Trump and the Republicans failed economy. He's the president right now. And so I'm happy to talk about primary elections in one of the bluest cities in the country at the end of the day. Listen, our focus is going to be on ending this national nightmare in this country that America is suffering a reckless and costly war of choice that skyrocketed gas prices, the failure to lower costs.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I wanted to ask you about that.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

He would do a whole host of other challenges.

[Joe Kernen]

Hakeem, some Republicans were gloating about what happened because it makes, you know, this could be detrimental to your efforts to do what you just said to make, you know, to an elected Democrat in 2028, to elect one in 2028. This might not be the greatest thing that people are witnessing, that normal people around the rest of the country say, what happened to the Democratic Party? That's, that's my only point.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Yeah, I think, I think that people are going to be concerned about the failure of Republicans to actually do the things they promised to do on the economy. The fact that ICE is out of control, the fact that there's a reckless and costly war of choice and that no vision has been articulated to actually make life more affordable for the American people. And listen, the reality is primaries do happen. There are 435 members of the House of Representatives. And am I going to agree with every single member on the Democratic or Republican side on every issue? Of course not. But there are members, you know, who were just, or on their way, you know, into the Congress right now who, you know, I have a long track record of having worked with, including people like Brad Lander. And I was on the other side of that race. But who's a hardworking public servant. He served his community and the city council ably. He served the city as the controller of the city of New York. And the community decided to elect Brad Lander.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And we've been talking to Brad for years in, in multiple roles that he's had in, in these, as, as a civil civil servant for the, for the city and, and the state. Now, my question to you is slightly different. I want to just talk about Iran for a second. You mentioned oil prices and I think it's actually surprised people, at least some depending on what political side you're on and other things, just how quickly we've seen prices come down. WTI crude this morning is 6979. And by the way, I'll raise my hand and see say, you know, there was a time when I would talk to different analysts and others that would say, you know what, the price of oil is not going to come down for months before you actually have or until you have not just a cease fire, but a real deal. What do you think of whatever you think the deal is on the table? What do you think of the fact, I mean, this is these prices have come down at a level very similar to what the president said they would.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, first of all, the price of oil should have never skyrocketed to begin with. That's number one. Number two, perhaps even more importantly, prior to this reckless and costly war of choice being launched by Donald Trump, the price of gasoline was $2.98. Right now it is $4.20. That's the average price. Right now. As of today, it was under 4. Everyday Americans are feeling that pain in a way that perhaps doesn't.

[Joe Kernen]

There's the national average. I can't.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

393 people well off and well connected

[Joe Kernen]

at 393 today, the national average. So it's not, not 420. We got it up.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

The national average was 420 as of yesterday. This morning it's 393. That's still much higher than the $2.98. And that has an impact on working class Americans, middle class Americans. But that's only part of the puzzle. Housing costs are too high. Grocery bills are too high. Utility bills are too high. Health care costs are too high. Child care costs are too high. People are clearly struggling and that's what public sentiment shows unequivocally. And Donald Trump has failed to solve that challenge and we are going to address it decisively.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Leader, let me throw one other ball. Maybe this is a curveball or not, but there's been increasing discussion, especially among Democrats about taxing the AI universe. And I'm curious where, how you think about that, whether you agree with that. I mean, look, even people like Sam Altman at times have talked about this. There's a whole other bunch of people who are worried that the taxing artificial intelligence data centers and the like tokens will slow down development and sort of the race we're having with China. Where do you sit on that issue?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Well, listen, I believe that we've got to be successful in terms of American leadership in the context of the continued development of artificial intelligence. We've got to make sure that we are able to leverage the benefits of this transformational technology for the public good. And we know that there are areas where we can clearly do that. Medical breakthroughs as an example, being able to expand the ability of people to get a high quality education. That's another example. Helping small businesses and entrepreneurs grow their businesses beyond perhaps what they may have thought was possible. That's another example. Those are all areas we should be in.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What do you think about taking a stake? What do you think about taking a stake in an open air or anthropic or Google? I mean, that's another one that's been thrown out there.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Yeah, I mean there's been a lot of interesting things that have been thrown out there. Haven't taken a position. We have launched a House Democratic Commission on Artificial Intelligence and the Innovation Economy. It's led by Josh Gottheimer, Val Fu Xi and Ted Lieu, who himself is an engineer by practice and a very highly thought of member of Congress, very thoughtful member of Congress. They're leading an effort to talk to stakeholders, community members, advocacy groups in order to actually come up with a thoughtful approach to AI policy as we transition from being in the minority to being in the majority, which is where we believe we will be after the November midterm elections. And we'll sort through all of these issues. But fundamentally the most important thing is making sure that artificial intelligence as a technology changes lives for the better of everyday Americans, working class Americans, middle class Americans and those who aspire to be part of the middle class. And we are going to have to deal with the job implications as it relates to workforce displacement. That will be a core issue that will be on the agenda for U.S. leader Jeffries Nixon.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Five go Knicks. Go New York. Thank you. Always good to see you. We appreciate you engaging with us on so many different topics.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Thank you so much.

[Joe Kernen]

That is why we do this. I think what's going on and just, you know.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, that's the whole. This is the whole thing. This is the whole game.

[Joe Kernen]

I know. Trying to help. I think it's hurt. I think it's hurting the cause. You know what happened here? I do. I think it's hurting the cause.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Which part?

[Joe Kernen]

I think what I was. My point to him was if you want to do all those things that, you know, that require electing a Democrat in 2028, this was not good. I don't think.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, look. And this is the part that I just don't know. We've had more and more extremes on all different sides. And I think the more extreme you go on one side, the reactionary force becomes even more extreme the other. And that's why I'm so. I so wish we could figure out

[Joe Kernen]

if you want to see some. We're on a seesaw and it's always balanced. So the heavier it is. Crazy on one side.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I just wish we could get to the middle of that seesaw. We could all be sitting closer to the middle of the seesaw.

[Joe Kernen]

Been all wrong.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm just thinking about what it means to sit on the middle of the. The balance man. And who. Who do you know that you think really is in the true middle right

[Joe Kernen]

now, but you're disputing that I'm sitting in the true middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm not. I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about. But other people. Who.

[Mark Pincus]

Who would you put.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Is. Is Thom Tillis sitting in the middle? Is that where you'd put a Thom Tillis for.

[Joe Kernen]

No, no, no. He's just mad.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Huh.

[Joe Kernen]

So he's not. Yeah, he's just bitter because he's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh, you think it's. See, I would put him as somebody who I think isn't. Is become a.

[Joe Kernen]

You certainly wouldn't be looking at anyone on the other side that's in the middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You might like who.

[Joe Kernen]

The future.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We could go through the whole list. Where are you on. Shapiro is a middle ground.

[Joe Kernen]

He is. And they could.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Whitmore's a middle ground person.

[Joe Kernen]

They couldn't put him on the ticket. For some reason they picked that guy from Minnesota.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Look, tell me how that happened again. I think this is the reactionary forces of what's happening in this country. I'm not saying it's the right decision. I'm just saying this is where we are.

[Joe Kernen]

Here's the middle right there.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And that is squawk pod for today. Thanks for listening. Whether you. You're in the middle or closer to either end, wherever you are. We're happy to have you. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern. Get the best of our TV show right into your ears when you follow Squawk Pod wherever you get your podcasts. Have a great Thursday. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow are clear.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thanks, guys.

[Joe Kernen]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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