Joe Kernan (3:36)

I see little wrinkles emerging as you age with wisdom.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:42)

Wisdom.

Joe Kernan (3:43)

I'm hoping that 50 does it for you, but we talked about that last night. We see each other a lot.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:48)

We do see each other a lot.

Joe Kernan (3:49)

But it's. Happy birthday.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:51)

Thank you.

Joe Kernan (3:51)

You're a year older.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:53)

Thank you.

Joe Kernan (3:53)

I would hope a year wiser. I have high hopes for you next year.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (3:58)

You think 50 years old isn't 50?

Joe Kernan (3:59)

Things happen.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:00)

A lot of things happen.

Joe Kernan (4:01)

Fifty things happen.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:02)

Fifty things happen. 50. I'm not 50, by the way. Folks don't age me yet.

Joe Kernan (4:07)

No, neither have I. I'm trying to think back about what it was like when I was. That. That's tough. But today is your day, and. And I want you to have a great birthday. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna really take this into account in everything we do today.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:21)

Oh, really?

Joe Kernan (4:21)

Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:22)

In terms of being sweeter and just gonna.

Joe Kernan (4:25)

I'm gonna nod. I'm not. I'm not gonna interrupt you if I disagree with something. I'm gonna nod and. And just defer to you that. That you have thought a lot of these things through as a young person thinks things through. And I can't always just think, well, you know, you need to. You know, you need to think of it my way.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:41)

But just so. Just so I understand, when I do turn 50, what happens?

Joe Kernan (4:47)

This great progress that a lot of people note on Twitter that they have seen over the years as you've come closer, I think, to my viewpoint on a lot of things that.

Joseph Stiglitz (4:58)

That will.

Joe Kernan (4:59)

There might be almost a quantum. What do you laugh about? There might almost be a quantum leap. Not this. Not this gradual thing we've seen, but an actual quantum thing where you finally take a look back at things.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:10)

All of this is a mistake.

Joe Kernan (5:11)

No, just say he was right the entire time about almost everything. Fireworks. And I think there's big Surprises coming today?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:19)

No, there is not.

Joe Kernan (5:21)

Well, not big surprises, but the kind of surprise I think that you would like. Maybe you don't know about it.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:26)

Yeah, I don't know about anything.

Joe Kernan (5:27)

Oh, you don't?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:29)

No. You just gave away a surprise. But I don't know what I've been.

Joe Kernan (5:31)

When, where or what.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:32)

No.

Joe Kernan (5:33)

Okay.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (5:33)

No

Joe Kernan (5:36)

fireworks. In a California courtroom during Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg's testimony in the landmark social media addiction, Trolley defended his company's algorithms and practices in the face of allegations that he put profits and addiction over teen mental health. Zuckerberg says Tim Cook was among the stakeholders he's reached out to about these concerns to discuss the well being of teens and kids. This is a tough one and none of us know what the answer is on how to what kids should do around the world. Andrew, there are more and more places. It started maybe with something in Australia, more and more places happening in Europe.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:18)

Do you think it's coming here?

Joe Kernan (6:20)

Should it come here?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:21)

I don't know. We should probably think about it, but I don't know what the right answer is.

Joe Kernan (6:26)

The discourse and everything else in the world. We'll talk more about it. There is loose talk everywhere and really incendiary, unacceptable stuff that is slander or liable, whatever the hell it is, if you write it or say it, but it is everywhere. We have lost our way in some higher institutions in educating, in my view, our youth because I look at some of the stuff that there end up, some of the conclusions that they come to and we've missed something somewhere along the way. I'm thinking about Colombia, some of the things we saw all these people die in Iran. Not a single person is anywhere on an Ivy League campus protesting against that. They didn't even know what they were protesting half the time with Gaza and yet they were there. Do you see how they've been molded into.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:14)

And so the question therefore is, is that about social media though? Is that about.

Joe Kernan (7:18)

No, no, no education?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:20)

Is that about what are we talking about?

Joe Kernan (7:22)

I don't know. You know, you would know more about how these kids got this way than I would. Number one, you're younger and number two, some of the people that you don't immediately condemn are, I think, responsible for some of this. On the far left,

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:39)

Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, formerly known as Prince. Prince Andrew, has been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. Police told the BBC that Andrew, the brother of King Charles, is in custody and officers are carrying out searches at his address. The arrest coming after police said they were assessing A complaint over the alleged sharing of confidential material by the former prince with Jeffrey Epstein. Andrew returned 66 years old today. Also his birthday. I did not know. Has denied any wrongdoing.

Joe Kernan (8:12)

His birthday's not going so good.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:14)

I'm. I'm gonna knock on mine.

Joe Kernan (8:16)

Yeah. Happy birthday, Andrew. Come with us. That's. That's harsh. That's. Yeah. I'm not expecting. I'm not expecting anything like that.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:24)

You can just call me Prince Andrew.

Joe Kernan (8:26)

I could. And we have a surprise for Prince Andrew. Oh, you don't. That's right.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:30)

No one wants Prince Andrew today.

Joe Kernan (8:33)

Okay.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:33)

Of all. You're right. The guy was just arrested.

Joe Kernan (8:35)

He's not. He's. He's Andrew Mountbatten. He's not Prince Andrew. Well, he was Prince Andrew, formerly known as Prince.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:42)

Which.

Joe Kernan (8:42)

Remember. Anyway, Happy birthday. Crawlers Daily Provisions. They got.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:48)

And even they sent over some donuts.

Joe Kernan (8:49)

I have an early birthday gift because there's a donut or there's a bacon one.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:53)

They got you a bacon one. Danny Meyer. Thank you. In the Daily Provisions, folks.

Joe Kernan (8:57)

That is awesome.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:57)

These are my favorite, by the way. Do you know that? These are my favorite? So what?

Joe Kernan (9:01)

On your birthday I go this way. I know, but. But on your birthday, what are we talking? How many would you. Oh, is my bacon donut on the floor? Stuck is. How many will you have?

Mario Gabelli (9:14)

I don't know.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:15)

Now I feel sad and bad.

Joe Kernan (9:17)

Will you have three?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:19)

No.

Joe Kernan (9:19)

Just remember Krispy Kremes. What was your record? Oh, what Was your record?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:24)

32nd rule. 3 second rule. Come on. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Kernan (9:26)

Pick that up.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:26)

Grab them. Grab them.

Joe Kernan (9:27)

I don't care. I have three dogs. God knows what they do with their mouths.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:30)

Oh my God. Grab them. I'm not joking. He should have those.

Joe Kernan (9:34)

I'm. I'm going to. What was your record on the Krispy Kremes that day? You were not.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:39)

You were up to years ago.

Joe Kernan (9:40)

It was a couple years ago.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:41)

You were years ago.

Joe Kernan (9:42)

Nine.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:43)

I might have had nine donuts or something like that.

Joe Kernan (9:45)

Nine. And you were flying.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:47)

I was. Thank you. Joe

Mario Gabelli (9:50)

Teas will be next.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (9:53)

Coming up on Squawk Podcast, a wide ranging conversation with legendary media investor Mario Gabelli. Where Warner Bros. Discovery lands in the Paramount Netflix fight. The future of our own parent company Versant. And of course, what's really going on at MSG as the company's board explores splitting up the Knicks and the Rangers.

Mario Gabelli (10:16)

You basically have two assets. They're totally different. Can they then sell a piece of Remainco which is let's say the Knicks and the Minor league, the other league, they have it, I want to call it minor league. And can they sell a piece of that the way Bob Kraft did of the Pats? And that is what he did was terrific. And that's another option for them that they don't talk about.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (10:38)

Gabelli, an MSG investor, joins us next.

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Joe Kernan (12:20)

Shares of MSG Gaming Sports MSG Sports are gaining ground and yesterday the company's board said it's exploring potential spinoff to split its New York Knicks and New York Rangers business into two publicly traded companies. Joining us now with his insight, billionaire and value investor Mario Gabelli, as well as a shareholder in MSG Sports. And we're going to get to you on all the latest developments with Warner Brothers as well. But you can start with this. Mario, does this make sense for you?

Mario Gabelli (12:54)

Thank you, Joe. Good to see you all and what a privilege to be here. When Bob Kraft wanted to raise some money for the Pats, what he did is he sold some interest in his Holdco, which meant that he didn't sell a piece of the teams with the Knicks and The Rangers and MSGs, Madison Square Garden Sports announced yesterday was that they're examining on this section of an IRS Code 355 not relevant that they are considering spinning off one of the splitting up the teams. Forbes has a value of about 13 to 14 billion for them, we think it's clearly 11 billion. So the value per share is north of 350. But there are other options that they can pursue while they're doing this. So what you have is the Rangers, you know, they're having a challenging season. The Knicks tonight are playing Detroit and we'll see how they do. So those are the dynamics there, Joe. At 300, it was up significantly yesterday, it's at around 340. We still like, because we're passionate fans, own one share for grandkids, you got to put it away.

Joe Kernan (13:58)

We always talk about the valuation for most sports franchises. You wouldn't say that, that it's overdone at this point?

Mario Gabelli (14:08)

Well, short term you have to adjust. You know, I can't tell day to day, I mean, if we have this geopolitical issues that would make the stock like others, you know, go down. But independent of that, you have 32 hockey teams. 30, you know, there's a scarcity value. Plus the basketball teams are going more global. This is interesting.

Joe Kernan (14:29)

The year on the record, you at this point think that Paramount's bid is superior to Netflix. And that's a great question.

Mario Gabelli (14:38)

You know, we go and shift experiences, live entertainment, sports, those are drivers. In the case of Netflix, their stocks dropped from like 110 to 80 over the last four months. And. But we're not getting their shares. We're getting cash. But cash is adjusted depending on how much value they put in. So when I get $30 a share, the arbs are saying if they don't bump, that is a 6%. It's actually 5, 7, 5.7% to a December close. If they bump to 31, it's closer to 9 and a half percent. So the hands are the deal right now on the stock at Warner Brothers. Now the question for me is always the same. You look at the amount of content spend at Paramount, you look at the content spend at Warner Brothers and the number they give you where they expense completely the sports dynamics. And you look at the content spend at Netflix and you say, hey, who's going to win? And then what is the entity that does that's not winning? What are they going to do? And so from our end Joe, the question is, can they cut a deal among themselves of some sort of independent of that at least they're starting to talk. And that was something that had not been on the, on the drawing boards before. So, you know, our clients own some Warner Brothers, but it's in the hands of the arms right now. They're doing the dynamics, the math and so on.

Joe Kernan (16:01)

What was your point about the drop in Netflix down in the 70s? Actually, the drop in the shares? It's not stock anymore. So what point were you making and why is it down? Is it down just in general on the, I don't know, market action or the environment? Or is it down because people are wondering if this is a worthwhile acquisition to go after with, you know, with.

Mario Gabelli (16:27)

Well, it's a change in the historical culture of Netflix where they would, you know, rent or lease the licenses. So what are they going to do next? The stock at $80 is oversold. However, as you point out, the concern is what are they going to do next since they're not in the, in the highest position to win the challenge. So this is terrific. My clients own Warner Brothers. We own a little bit of Netflix. We think about adding to it. We obviously own some Paramount, not a lot. And, but within the context, our bigger holding is Madison Square Garden Sports or even John Deere, as they reported this morning. So obviously we're staying tuned. And at the moment, the WBD, at $28, you know, you get a cash return to one of the winners over the next 10 months.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (17:20)

A. Mario, let's go back to the Garden for a second, if we could. When you, if they split these things, how do you think it works in terms of the control share of the Dolan's? I mean, one of the reasons there's never been a real premium on this stock is there's always been a discount on the stock because of his control. Control family, control the company.

Mario Gabelli (17:39)

No, yeah, there's no question. But it's, you know, there's an iconic. There's 24 million shares of which four and a half million are voting. They control the vote. They have the vote, but that's okay. It's consistent with league practices and so on. And you see, for example, today, the Seattle Super Hawks, Paul Allen died at least seven or eight years ago, and they're putting that up for sale. So you're going to see a lot of interest in sports because of the live experiences, the globalization of some of these teams. But you're right, there's 24 million shares. The Dolan's will probably have a. Assuming they move ahead under section 355 and they keep the. The numbers constant. The question then is the change in management. We'll figure that out.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (18:20)

But you expect the Knicks. I guess what I'm asking is you don't think that both companies therefore become in play.

Mario Gabelli (18:27)

I would think that is not the long term strategy. I don't fully understand the short term tactics of why they're doing something like this. You know, it's financial engineering 101. You basically have two assets. They're totally different. Can they then sell a piece of remainco which is let's say the Knicks and the minor league. The other league, they have it, I want to call it minor league. And can they sell a piece of that the way Bob Kraft did of the Pats? And that is what he did was terrific. And that's another option for them that they don't talk about.

Joe Kernan (19:00)

Rich Greenfield thinks that that Paramount should just buy the stub. He was making that case, wasn't he? Andrew? Just buy the discovery part after it. I know.

Mario Gabelli (19:13)

Are we talking about Paramount?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (19:15)

Yeah, we're moving around a little bit.

Joe Kernan (19:16)

We're going back to that. I'm not

Mario Gabelli (19:21)

a deal. You got two and a half billion shares. Two and a half billion times $30 is 75 billion. You pick up 25 billion of debt. Whoever buys it at $30 is paying $100 billion. And so how do you handle that? Where do you get the financing? And do you want to cut a deal for some of your content with someone? And then who doesn't win it? What are they going to look at? You know, maybe six months ago, five months ago we talked about looking at Sony Pictures and looking at some others. This, some of this is not. Whoever doesn't win is going to look for something.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (19:59)

Okay, here you want to go into treacherous territory here I want you. I don't know if it's true. We'll see if it's treacherous. I want to know what your take is on Versant, the new public spin off from NBC Universal. Comcast, owner of this network, the symbol

Mario Gabelli (20:14)

is VS and T. It was spun off before it started trading. It was 46 yesterday it closed around 2950, if I remember. There it is. Thank you.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:23)

Yeah.

Mario Gabelli (20:23)

And basically with 140, I'm cuffing the number. 145 million shares, plus or minus a million. The stock is a bargain. The only thing I don't have a handle on is why did comcast keep a 5 year license renewal agreement on Balance. I think Mark Lazarus is going to do a terrific job. They're coming out with their meetings in the earnings in a couple of weeks and we'll get a better handle on the dots of the company and that stock at Vs&t we like very much.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (20:53)

Go back, hold on, what's the issue for you? You said you don't understand why there's a five, five year license on which piece?

Mario Gabelli (20:59)

Cnbc. Duh.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (21:01)

And. And that concerns you in what? In what regard?

Mario Gabelli (21:05)

Well, that is an interesting question. I don't know why they put it in. Is it a safeguard that somebody doesn't come in while they're making the adjustments on Via Santa to preclude it from being a hostile in quotes money grab by someone because it's intrinsically undervalued if they can do a couple of things. Okay, Joe, you're a golfer. Andrew is a golf watcher. I'm joking. Andrew. I don't know. And essentially that's one of the dynamics that they have. What are they going to do with it? How are they going to leverage it? So I would have preferred that they had it completely, but I can understand, I think what the reasons are of Roberts in terms of keeping that license renewal. I don't think it's that significant if the management stays in place and there's no challenge. I think it's like a different kind of poison pill, so to speak.

Joe Kernan (21:54)

It was 2950. It gave you.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (21:57)

It's moving higher.

Joe Kernan (21:58)

Was 2950, it's now 30.

Mario Gabelli (22:00)

Well, it was higher yesterday and came down at the end of the day.

Joe Kernan (22:03)

No, I saw it.

Mario Gabelli (22:04)

You know, the index fund sold it. You see that. And the same thing would happen if in fact, you know, Netflix bumps their approach. They've got a 2775. But the more debt they put on, the lower the cash price they were getting or the less debt that they're putting on, on, on the spin off. And then the index funds will be selling that. So those are the things you think about both mechanically and fundamentally and combine them together to make a long term wealth creation.

Joe Kernan (22:32)

So yeah. So you know, Brian didn't keep us cnbc, but we should feel good about ourselves at cnbc. Is that what you're saying?

Mario Gabelli (22:40)

You should feel great about yourselves because you guys are the iconic thing that anybody in the world wants to understand when they want to understand what's going on in the pluses and minuses of the U.S. capital markets and the global markets. The fact that he did it is a question, that's all. Okay. Ask.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (22:56)

Okay, Mario, we'll get you some answers. Talk to you soon. Thanks.

Mario Gabelli (23:00)

I love. Look forward to hearing them. Andrew. Thanks.

Joe Kernan (23:02)

Okay. Always been brilliant.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (23:07)

Next up on Squawkpod, we're diving into America's economic story. National Economic Council director Kevin Hassett criticized the New York Fed paper that found US Companies and US Consumers are shouldering most of the tariff burden.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (23:25)

The paper is an embarrassment. It's I think the worst paper I've ever seen in the history of the Federal Reserve System. The people associated with this paper should presumably be disciplined because what they've done is they've put out a conclusion which has created a lot of news that's highly partisan based on analysis that wouldn't be accepted in a first semester econ class.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (23:48)

Two time Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stieglitz explains his own view of the same economy.

Joseph Stiglitz (23:57)

Where is the increase in jobs in the United States? Healthcare? Does that have anything to do with the tariffs?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (24:03)

No.

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Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (24:38)

store be any cuter? Right.

Mario Gabelli (24:40)

And the best part?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (24:41)

They accept Discover.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (24:42)

Except Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer. Oh yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (24:47)

Huh? Discover's accepted where I like to shop.

Joe Kernan (24:49)

Come on, baby, get with the times.

Mario Gabelli (24:52)

Right, so we shouldn't get the parachute pants.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (24:55)

These are making a comeback, I think.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (24:59)

Discover is accepted at 99% of places

Joseph Stiglitz (25:02)

that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (25:06)

You've never been one to settle, stand down or stand still. You're a lifelong learner, energized by excellence. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. You've got competition to outrun, momentum to build on, and your own high standards to meet. Stop now. Not a chance. At Capella University, we help you catch what you're chasing. Because you've always had the drive. Now go earn the degree. Capella University. What can't you do? Visit Capella. Edu to learn more. Welcome back to Squawkpod.

Joe Kernan (25:42)

On this birthday and it's always Wednesday. Birthday Thursday. If it was Wednesday, wouldn't be a Birthday felt like. It feels like a Wednesday, like a hump day. I'm Joe Kerner along with Andrew Ross Sorkin, who's.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (25:53)

And the donuts from Daily Provisions, who did not to Danny.

Joe Kernan (25:56)

And these donuts. Andrew did not hit a big number today. He wants to make that clear.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:01)

Yeah, yeah. You were, you were aging me.

Joe Kernan (26:03)

No, I was not. I was saying that when you do hit that important number, I expect some progress still, you know, my political views just in general. You can still wallow, you know, you're youthful, you're youthful.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:15)

Trying to stay youthful.

Joe Kernan (26:16)

It's wasted on the young.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:17)

Talking about crow's feet and all this stuff. I don't want that.

Joe Kernan (26:20)

You look very young.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:22)

Trying donuts are not going to help.

Joe Kernan (26:24)

How many do you have?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:26)

Up to three. I'm up to three. And I, I just had a bite of this coconut one which is, it's a little heavier, that one.

Joe Kernan (26:33)

I'm taking like little slivers of each and fooling myself into them. Not really eating. I'm going into the trough in the second.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (26:39)

Joining us right now is two time Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz. He's the author of the Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society. And the new paperback edition is out next week. And we're thrilled to have you back on the broadcast and eating a donut,

Joe Kernan (26:53)

no less, and wondering about inelasticity, if you can. $50 for a dozen donuts, maybe. So that.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (27:00)

So we were just having a conversation about the economy and I'm curious just from your perspective, how you see it. Where are we?

Joseph Stiglitz (27:07)

Not great right now. And the prospects are that it's going to get worse.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (27:11)

Okay, so you are on the other side of where Joe is right now. Explain yourself, Livornia. Okay. And Joe Kern. On the other side of Joe and Joe.

Joseph Stiglitz (27:20)

Okay, so there are a couple parts. You know, the mystery for a lot of people is how come the tariffs didn't have the big effect on inflation. Economists always begin by asking the counterfactual, what would inflation have been but for the tariffs? And you remember the war in Ukraine going on and the pandemic, big spike in inflation. And then it was coming down pretty rapidly. And before Trump arrived, the anticipation was that it was going to continue to go down pretty rapidly. It continued to go down, but very, very slowly. So the question is, what is the difference from what it would have been and what we experienced? You look at those numbers and it's about $1,000 for every American family. And those numbers line up very closely with the Federal Reserve numbers that Kevin Hassett criticized on your program. So, you know, the way I look at it, you put together lots of different pieces of data together and they give you a picture. You know, if Hassett were right, we'd have to write, rewrite all the economics books.

Joe Kernan (28:41)

Good.

Joseph Stiglitz (28:41)

You know, for our job. But the fact is prices are affected by cost. There's no way you can get around that basic law of economics. It doesn't necessarily happen immediately, but it happens.

Joe Kernan (28:55)

Joe, if it wasn't regressive, would you have a problem with higher costs for US Corporations like a tax? Higher cost for high end consumers like a tax raise so much in tariff revenue that the deficit is going to be lower than it would have because of the.

Joseph Stiglitz (29:11)

It would have been. But the big beautiful bill raised the deficit.

Joe Kernan (29:15)

But it's going to be less bad because of. So is it okay to raise money this way? People like the tax cut companies. Because it's regressive.

Joseph Stiglitz (29:23)

Because it's regressive and it's distortive.

Joe Kernan (29:26)

But it might be distorting the distortions that we've had over the past 40 years in global trade. We might be reversing some of this or might be a reason to do it.

Joseph Stiglitz (29:36)

No, he articulated a set of reasons, but he didn't think about the way the economy actually operates. Let me give you two examples. So the whole idea was to bring back manufacturing jobs to the United States. You know what's happened to jobs in manufacturing in the last year? They're down, they're down, they're down, they're down. Did he succeed? Might be a lag, might be, but they're down. So very clear he didn't succeed over the last year in bringing back manufacturing jobs. Look at the deficit, deficit as economists look at it, multilateral deficit in trade in goods and services. We're a service sector economy. You know, goods are just less than 10% of GDP. You look at that, that backs up.

Joe Kernan (30:30)

Right, but that's the argument that the low end people that are affected by the tariffs are mostly goods and the high end people that do all the consuming mostly through services can afford to pay a little bit more. If you call tariffs a tax.

Joseph Stiglitz (30:45)

Yeah. So one part of it is if you look at who is paying these tariffs, it is lower in people in terms of percentage of their incomes in terms of regressive.

Joe Kernan (30:59)

I know I had people lecturing me like I don't understand that, but yes, I understand.

Joseph Stiglitz (31:01)

So that's why it's a bad regressive. And you might say if there was some economic benefit like on the other end, we're creating low end jobs.

Joe Kernan (31:11)

That's what HACCP says. Income.

Joseph Stiglitz (31:13)

We weigh that in. Yeah, but I mentioned the very large decline in manufacturing jobs. The decline in blue collar jobs is even larger. And you look at where is the increase in jobs in the United States, health care, does that have anything to do with the tariffs? No, no.

Joe Kernan (31:35)

It has to do with people like, like us getting old.

Mario Gabelli (31:38)

Yeah, I mean, well, actually he's the

Joe Kernan (31:40)

guy that has a birthday.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (31:41)

I have a birthday today.

Joe Kernan (31:41)

Getting old.

Mario Gabelli (31:42)

So.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (31:42)

Yeah, so when you go back to.

Joseph Stiglitz (31:44)

I mean, so the point is there's a mismatch between what they say they've done, these policies, these are the results. And you look at the data, it just doesn't.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (31:55)

Do you think there's ever been, I'm actually curious whether in the, in the econ circles you live in, whether there's ever been such a delta in terms of the debate about what the results say?

Joseph Stiglitz (32:05)

Well, actually, among the economist economics profession, there's not that much dispute. What is striking is, you know, I was chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers. We had disputes with people from the Council of Economic Advisers in previous administration, but we had enormous respect for each other. Marty Felstein at Harvard, Mike Boskin at Stanford, Glenn Hubbard at Columbia. There was a sense that we might disagree on the numbers, but we respected each other. That's not true of the Trump cea. I mean, he's laundered institutional credibility in the same way that I think Trump has undermined the institutional credibility of the Fed.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (32:56)

Well, let me ask you, so Kevin Warsh is going to be the new Fed chairman, assuming his nomination is approved. What is your take on Kevin Warsh and what he is going to do? What he's going to be able to do?

Joseph Stiglitz (33:09)

Well, you know, anybody who gets appointed by Trump has to bend at the knee before Trump.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (33:15)

Do you have to? I mean, that's the other question before you get in. Yes.

Joseph Stiglitz (33:19)

You don't know what will happen. What you do know is if you contradict what Trump wants, you will be criticized even if Trump appoints you. So being appointed by Trump doesn't insulate you from pressure.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (33:33)

Right.

Joseph Stiglitz (33:33)

What has most disturbed me is some of his, what I would say, fanciful statements that AI increases in productivity, productivity are going to allow a significant lowering of interest rates. You know, there are uncertainties about the pace of AI. I don't think there's any significant body of thought that think that AI productivity increases are going to percolate into the macro economy fast enough to justify any significant with any impact on radio Greece's and the fact that he said that to me was very worrisome.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (34:20)

We're up against a hard break. Want to thank you Justice Diglitz for coming in. The book is called the Road to Freedom, Economics and the Good Society.

Narrator/Producer Cameron Costa (34:30)

That's Squawk Pod for today. Thank you for listening and happy Birthday, Andrew. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kerr, Vernon, Becky Quick and Andrew Rossorkin weekday mornings on cnbc starting at 6 Eastern. To get the best bits of that three hour TV show right into your ears, follow Squawkpod wherever you're listening now. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow. Have a great day.

Mario Gabelli (34:55)

We are clear.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (34:57)

Thanks guys. Foreign.

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