NYT DealBook, Wrapped: Alex Karp, PM Netanyahu, & Erika Kirk 12/4/25

Summary

Squawk Pod – NYT DealBook, Wrapped: Alex Karp, PM Netanyahu, & Erika Kirk (12/4/25)

Overview

This episode of Squawk Pod (December 4, 2025) recaps the key moments from the New York Times DealBook Summit, curated by and featuring interviews from CNBC’s Andrew Ross Sorkin. The episode stitches together high-impact insights and debates from global leaders, CEOs, and political figures, zeroing in on issues of economic policy, political division, AI innovation, global crises, vaccine regulation, and the shifting definitions of progressivism and conservatism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant: Economic Optimism Versus Market Jitters

• Trump Administration's Economic Team:

  • Speculation around Besant’s potential as next head of the National Economic Council if Kevin Hassett becomes Fed Chair. (02:32)
  • Concerns about candidates' independence from presidential influence, especially regarding interest rate decisions.
    • "Is President Trump going to put in someone that's just going to do what he wants and lower rates and his Fed independence in question?" – Joe Kernan (04:06)
  • Discussion about whether Trump's instincts for lower rates have coincidentally aligned with economic trends.

• Economic Outlook for 2026:

  • Besant downplays broad economic weakness, disputing Jamie Dimon’s warning about the economy slowing down.
    • "I am very optimistic about the economy next year. We've had a 15% growth in capex, and historically, capex is always followed by employment growth." – Andrew Ross Sorkin (06:44)
  • Acknowledges housing softness and the impact of Fed tightening but views AI-driven capex optimistically.

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2. Dario Amodei (Anthropic CEO): AI’s Technological Promise and Economic Risk

• AI Bubble Concerns:

  • Amodei explains confidence in the technology but unease about monetization and capital allocation.
    • "I feel really solid. I think I'm one of the most bullish people around..." – Dario Amodei (07:45)
    • Warns that a ‘YOLO’ (you only live once) mentality from some industry players (hinting at OpenAI) may threaten the ecosystem if investments and infrastructure are mistimed. (08:25)

• AI Reliability and Consumer Trust:

  • Lighthearted but pointed exchange about current AI models giving inconsistent answers, sometimes dangerously wrong (e.g., mushroom identification memes).
    • "They do tell you stuff that they have no idea about...are they going to get better?" – Joe Kernan (09:20)
  • Sorkin admits regular inaccuracy in generative AI outputs, despite progress in video generation.

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3. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: ICC Arrest Threats & U.S. Political Backing

• Netanyahu Responds to ICC and New York City Politics:

  • On whether he’d visit New York given ICC warrants and threats of arrest from new administration:
    • "Andrew, I'll come to New York. Okay?...Yes, of course I will." – Benjamin Netanyahu (11:49)

• State vs. Federal Powers & Political Theater

  • Discussion about federal vs. state rights and the inconsistency of their invocation depending on political needs.

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4. Paramount/Warner Bros. Deal: Board Independence and Corporate Governance

• Breakup Fees and Board Dynamics:
  • Paramount reportedly raising its Warner Bros. breakup fee offer to $5 billion.
  • Discussion of the difference between “disinterested” and “independent” board members, with a humorous note on meeting fatigue.
    • "If I've got disinterested board members, I don't want them on the board...I think the word should be independent board members." – Andrew Ross Sorkin (14:48)

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5. Dr. Scott Gottlieb: FDA Vaccine Policy Uproar

• Editorial Crisis:

  • Gottlieb, former FDA Commissioner, articulates grave concerns over new leadership—asserts Dr. Vinay Prasad and political appointees are fundamentally altering the vaccine approval process in ways that may restrict American access to crucial vaccines.
    • "They're systematically trying to dismantle components of the vaccine approval process to make sure vaccines won't be available." – Dr. Scott Gottlieb (22:31)
  • Heated debate about evidence standards, with Gottlieb warning of industry monopolies and stifled innovation if "immunobridging" studies are abandoned.

• Political Overlap with Anti-Vax Sentiment:

  • Direct mention of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s anti-vaccine influence on current regulatory direction.
    • "I think Secretary Kennedy has been very honest about his intentions. I think Prasad, not so much..." – Dr. Scott Gottlieb (23:40)

• Need for Evidence and Access:

  • Gottlieb challenges whether Americans truly want to see vaccines (e.g., flu, pneumococcal) disappear due to regulatory overreach.
    • "Americans need to make a decision. Do they want access to the flu vaccine? Even if you choose not to take it, do you want it to be available or not?" – Dr. Scott Gottlieb (26:51)

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6. DealBook Summit Recap: Top Moments

Alex Karp (Palantir CEO): Progressivism, Party Realignment, and Moral Clarity

• Progressive Identity Crisis:
  • Karp forcefully insists he hasn't shifted; it's the definition of ‘progressive’ that has changed.
    • "The idea that what's being called progressive is in any way progressive is a complete farce...Being progressive doesn't mean just, oh, it feels so good to be involved in dysfunction...that's not progressive. That's honestly cowardly." – Alex Karp (31:04)

California Governor Gavin Newsom: Democratic Party’s Path Forward

• Post-Election Analysis:
  • Newsom addresses Democratic losses and the need for the party to appear "more culturally normal."
    • "We have to be more culturally normal." – Gavin Newsom (33:08)
  • Cites inflation, interest rates, and messaging as key factors, debates California as a Democratic blueprint.

Erika Kirk (Turning Point USA): Forgiveness, Youth, and GOP’s Future

• Personal and Political Healing:
  • On leading Turning Point USA after Charlie Kirk's assassination:
    • "It's a conversation that's being had that is...uncomfortable and riling things up. But I think it's healthy..." – Erika Kirk (36:16)
  • Discusses forgiving Charlie’s assassin during the funeral—emphasizes authenticity and faith.
    • "That was not something preplanned. That was not...I'm not going to say something I don't truly believe." – Erika Kirk (36:58)
  • Shares Charlie Kirk’s role as a hoped-for peacemaker between President Trump and Elon Musk, symbolically achieved at his funeral.

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Notable Quotes By Segment (with Timestamps)

• Besant on Economy:
  "I am very optimistic about the economy next year..." — Andrew Ross Sorkin (06:44)

• Dario Amodei on AI Risk:
  "I think there's a real dilemma deriving from uncertainty in how quickly the economic value is going to grow..." — Dario Amodei (08:25)

• Netanyahu on Visiting NY:
  "Andrew, I'll come to New York. Okay?...Yes, of course I will." — Benjamin Netanyahu (11:49)

• Gottlieb on Vaccine Policy:
  "They're systematically trying to dismantle components of the vaccine approval process to make sure vaccines won't be available." — Dr. Scott Gottlieb (22:31)

• Karp on Progressives:
  "The idea that what's being called progressive is in any way progressive is a complete farce." — Alex Karp (31:04)

• Newsom on Democrats:
  "We have to be more culturally normal." — Gavin Newsom (33:08)

• Erika Kirk on Forgiveness:
  "That was not something preplanned. That was not...I'm not going to say something I don't truly believe." — Erika Kirk (36:58)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment Summary | |---------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:32 | Trump’s economic team speculation; Fed/NEC discussion | | 06:44 | Besant on U.S. economic outlook, capex, and optimism | | 07:45 | Amodei on AI’s technological and economic risks | | 11:49 | Netanyahu vows to visit New York despite ICC threats | | 17:54 | Dr. Gottlieb on FDA changes and vaccine accessibility | | 31:04 | Alex Karp on meaning of ‘progressive’ and party realignment | | 33:08 | Newsom on Democrats needing to be “more culturally normal” | | 36:16 | Erika Kirk on forgiveness and leading conservative youth |

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Memorable Moments

• Humor & Host Banter:

  • Misunderstanding of “disinterested” vs. “independent” board members.
  • Running joke about the “Joe GPT” AI model and generative AI’s flaws.

• Emotional Impact:

  • Erika Kirk’s live processing and faith-driven forgiveness at her husband’s funeral.
  • The symbolic coming together of Trump and Musk, as envisioned by Charlie Kirk.

• Intellectual Fireworks:

  • Karp’s unguarded critique of modern progressivism.
  • Newsom’s public introspection about the Democratic Party’s future.
  • Gottlieb’s alarm at regulatory threats to biotechnology and vaccine innovation.

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Summary

This post-DealBook Summit edition of Squawk Pod offers a spirited, high-stakes survey of the major controversies and conversations shaping U.S. policy, technology, and culture as 2025 closes. The episode is notable for its tight curation of political candor, economic clarity, and philosophical self-examination, delivered in the voices of the country’s most influential figures—accompanied by the blend of skepticism, humor, and genuine curiosity that Squawk Box audiences know and love.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Joe Kernan]

Bring in show music please.

[Cameron Costa]

This is Squawkpod and I'm CNBC producer Cameron Costa. On today's episode, a Dealbook Summit recap. Huge interviews with global politicians, CEOs and iconic figures, all hosted on one stage by our own Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Joe Kernan]

Congrats.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thank you.

[Cameron Costa]

The most memorable moments and the most memorable speakers like Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Mr. Beast Larry Fink and California Governor Gavin Newsom.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Having spent a lot of time with different people yesterday, a tremendous orator, Treasury.

[Cameron Costa]

Secretary Scott Besant's next career move and a political shift for Palantir's Alex Karp.

[Alex Karp]

The idea that what's being called progressive is in any way progressive is a complete farce.

[Cameron Costa]

Plus, an intense conversation with former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb. He is concerned about America's health and the future.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

They're systematically trying to dismantle components of the vaccine approval process to make sure vaccines won't be available.

[Cameron Costa]

It's Thursday, December 4th, and Squawkpod begins right now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand and or by in 3, 2, 1 2.

Good morning and welcome to Squawk Box right here on cnbc. We are live at the NASDAQ market site in Times Square this morning. I'm Andrew Ossorkin along with Joe Kernan. Becky is on assignment today.

[Joe Kernan]

Bessant.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let's talk about Bessant.

[Joe Kernan]

We're going to talk about him. Just personally, if I were Trump, I think I'd wake up in the morning and say this is my most effective person. To logically explain what sometimes doesn't look very logical for the Trump administration. I would thank my, my lucky stars for him, I think, every morning. And he may get another job. He is reportedly under consideration to lead the National Economic Council if President Trump picks Kevin Hassett, the current NEC director, as the next Fed chair. Bloomberg report says the NSC job will be in addition to his current role as Treasury Secretary. Earlier this week, President Trump called up Hassett. The way he said it too, I was watching it live. He called him, he goes, yeah, there's a guy here who is a potential Fed pick, right, Kevin? He went like that. I don't know what that means exactly, but it may mean nothing with President Trump. He's mercurial and changes his mind. But he said he would reveal his choice for the central bank early next year. We thought it might come before Christmas. I don't know. It still could.

[Dario Amodei]

We don't know.

[Joe Kernan]

And the Financial Times is reporting the key players in the US Debt market have voiced concerns to treasury about a potential HACCP appointment to the Fed's top position. The report says treasury sought feedback on HACCP and other Fed candidates last month in one on one meetings with financial executives. And some market participants said they were worried about HACCP's alignment with President Trump and feared he might push for just indiscriminate rate cuts. And you know, this is just giving.

I guess it's a published report about something we've talked about so, so, so many times. You know, is President Trump going to put in someone that's just going to do what he wants and lower rates and his Fed independence in question? We had Brad on the other day and asked that question Gerstner and add that question. I saw that interview. Yeah. And he kind of got his dander up on that, saying that's really unfair to someone with, has its background in history to just say he's going to be a rubber stamp and a yes man for Trump. But that's still, obviously that still is a concern with, with people.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I asked what he said about.

[Joe Kernan]

What do you say?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, just, just about the idea of how he thinks the market will think about somebody who, you know, does it, does it, does it matter if the person seems independent from the president?

[Joe Kernan]

Right. Because the president controls a lot of things and some people think he could have more influence on the Fed and they all try.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right.

[Joe Kernan]

But it might not be better. I'll tell you one thing that just because of the circumstances, the times that Trump has been pounding the table on lower rates, Serendipitously were times where rates probably should have been lowered. I don't think he's been president at a time like when Janet Yellen with transitory inflation where he had a chance, he probably still would have been saying cut rate, but we'll never know. He's never been in a period where he should have been saying raise rates. So we don't. The times he's, he's been right. That's the scary thing. He's been right about lowering rates. But that I just, I'm not sure. I think he'd always want a lower rate. Could you ever see him saying, wow, this economy's too hot, we need to know.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think he's, he's a lower rates guy.

[Joe Kernan]

But is that wrong? I mean, you do want to.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, yes, yes, actually, if you think, if you don't have inflation.

[Joe Kernan]

I do think I've seen stuff. I think Trump really does want to do the right thing for people in America.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I agree with that.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And you'd like, you know, I think.

[Joe Kernan]

Everything he's thinking about, I don't think it's personal. I don't think it's about himself. I really now you might argue with what he's, his approach and even whether he's doing the right things and whether he's instructing people to do the right things. But in his mind, even tariffs, I think everything he's doing, he thinks.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh, I believe he believes. No, no. I have. No, you just think he's wrong. No, no, I have no doubt that he believes what he believes.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I just think there's people have questions about the approach, by the way, I believe, you know, we talk about different forms of, you know, how you deal with affordability, something like that, different ways to do it. You and I actually, I think, agree on how to deal with that. Other people have a different way to deal with it.

Yesterday I spent some time with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen at the New York Times dealbook summit. We talked about so many different issues, current state of the economy. And I asked him to respond to Jamie Dimon, who had said last month that he thinks the economy is weakening. I think that certain sectors are and maybe it goes back to the reason we need interest rate cuts, that clearly housing has weakened and that I believe that again, the Fed doesn't really understand this calculus of we've had balance sheet roll off, which is tightening. We have had the two rate cuts. But I am very optimistic about the economy next year. We're, we've had a 15% growth in capex, and historically, capex is always followed by employment growth, AI dominating the conversation right now. Here's Anthropic CEO Dario Modi on questions about a possible bubble.

[Dario Amodei]

So this is really complicated, and I want to separate out the technological side of it from the economic side of it. On the technological side of it, I feel really solid. I think I'm one of the most bullish people around, and I think it pencils out on the economic side. You know, I have my concerns where even if the technology is, you know, really powerful and fulfills all its promises, I think there may be players in the ecosystem who, if they just make a timing error, if they just get it off by a little bit, bad things could happen.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I asked him about the vast amounts of money that his company and others, including OpenAI, are spending.

[Dario Amodei]

I think there's a real dilemma deriving from uncertainty in how quickly the economic value is going to grow and the lag times on building the data centers that drives it. So I think there's genuine uncertainty. There's genuine dilemma which we as a company try to manage as responsibly as we can. And then I think there are some players who are YOLOing who pull the risk dial too far, and I'm very concerned.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Who is YOLOing? He didn't want to mention who was YOLOing, Joe, but, you know, who.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Who was suggesting.

[Joe Kernan]

You got to go slow with me on all the AI. There's so many of them.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This suggestion, I believe, was about OpenAI. He, of course, had worked, you know, with Sam. He was. He was one of the originals who helped create GPT2 and GPT3.

[Joe Kernan]

Oh. So.

How'S the new.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I hear Google, we're up to GPT5, by the way.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernan]

All right. I don't know what I have on my. But, you know, I. So I go to the one that was least wrong last time I asked a question, and I really haven't found it. There was one yesterday that was. God, I wanted to tell you about it, too, because it was so beyond the pale. And now there's memes out that say, you know, that have a picture of a guy saying, am I able to eat this mushroom? Is it okay? And the answer is, absolutely, that's fine. And then there's another one, and then there's a tombstone, and it says, oh, I'm sorry, on further inspection, that was poisonous. And it's like, they do tell you stuff that they have no idea about. They need to. Don't they need to and they're always the most frequent response I get is, oh, you know, now that I'm looking at things, it actually is the opposite of what I just told you. Is that gonna get better? I mean, we don't even talking about generative and analysis.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I still get things that are wrong all the time. And I have to say to it, hey, I think you're right. That doesn't sound right. And then they go, oh, I'm not.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah, I think it's might be wrong more than me.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well.

We should create the Joe GPT.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah, exactly. So we're on GTP5.5 1. Aren't you using Google now, though?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I've been playing. Playing with Gemini 3:1 and it's pretty good.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, you got to go. What is the. You know when Benioff said, oh, my God, what is it about it that you say? Omega. The video.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The video.

[Joe Kernan]

You ask it to make a video, it'll make.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yes, that part's to me the most incredible. But text. I still think that brings up some.

[Joe Kernan]

Really sick thoughts in my mind, I think. And now they don't want to censor anything either. So you can ask for the sickest thing in the world to see, probably, can't you?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No. I actually tried to make a funny video for you.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, I'll bet you did. Oh, from now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I tried to do something actually with Joe and Becky, and it wouldn't do it because of copyright issues.

[Joe Kernan]

Oh, copyright.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We've got a little bit more news to bring you this morning and some other headlines. New York City's Mayor Eric Adams signing two executive orders yesterday. One bars the city from making businesses or pension investment decisions that discriminate against Israel. The other calls on the NYPD to strengthen enforcement protecting religious houses of worship. Yesterday I spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Joe, and I asked him if he plans to visit New York, given the International Criminal Court's warrant for his arrest and Mayor elect Zoran Mandami's comments that he would arrest the Prime Minister if he came to the city.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Andrew, I'll come to New York. Okay.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And that was my question. Would you come to New York given what the mayor has said about arresting you?

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Yes, of course I will.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And you will test that. I mean, what is the thought about how that would work?

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Well, why don't you wait and see? Yes, I'll come to New York.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Would you want to talk to him, by the way?

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Well, you know, if he changes his mind and says that we have the right to exist, that'll be a good opening for a conversation.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

That's a great.

[Joe Kernan]

You know, if he says he doesn't want to wipe Israel off the planet, maybe I'll talk.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Maybe I'll talk to him.

[Joe Kernan]

I think Trump has his back. And I think, oh.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Because I think clearly, look, the federal.

[Joe Kernan]

That's what I mean.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The federal government does not even acknowledge the icc. This is just.

[Dario Amodei]

It's something.

[Joe Kernan]

It's another one of those funny things. Republicans love state rights until they don't love state rights. And I understand completely and I'm guilty of the same thing. It's like, really, we can take care, you know, bring the feds in for that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So that's actually interesting. Yeah. Where do you land on that? States rights versus all depends. It all depends.

[Joe Kernan]

It all depends on what? Butters my.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Butters my bread.

[Joe Kernan]

Did you try to get the mayor? I bet you did. Backflips trying to get him to the dealbook thing. Right?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We had talked to them for. For a while, mostly before the election. But, you know, he's got a lot. He's got a lot going on.

[Joe Kernan]

I know, but he should have been there yesterday at the Steel Boat.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, I think maybe we'll do that in the future. We'll get him here. I want to get him here.

[Joe Kernan]

All right, all right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I want him at this table.

[Joe Kernan]

I have to gear up for that. We have hard, you know, gladiators. Not really, though. Not quite as bad as a line coming at us.

Paramount Skydance, raising its proposed breakup fee in its offer for Warner brothers discovery to $5 billion.

Previously was just over 2 billion. This is according to a Bloomberg report. And separately, CNBC has learned that Paramount's attorneys recently wrote a letter to Warner Bros. Management laying out concerns over the fairness in the bidding process for the company. The lawyers cite a recent German media report about a meeting between a Warner executive and a European Commission official at which concerns were raised about possible media concentration that could end up in the hands of Paramount CEO David Ellison and his family. Now Paramount attorneys are asking Warner Brothers to create a committee of disinterested board members to evaluate offers for the company.

More fairly. But, you know, if I've got board members and they're just, you know, they come to the meeting and they're just like, oh, another one. If I've got disinterested board members, I don't want them on the board. You know what I'm saying? Am I making sense to you?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You're making sense to me.

[Joe Kernan]

Would you. Would you keep them on the board.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

If they were just interested.

[Joe Kernan]

They're totally disinterested. It's like, this is your job running this company.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think we are. The word should be independent board members.

[Joe Kernan]

Oh, oh, okay.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

All right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think the dish is interested.

[Joe Kernan]

Never mind.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You're usually disinterested when I'm speaking.

[Joe Kernan]

That's right. That's right.

[Dario Amodei]

That's the.

[Joe Kernan]

When I say disinterested, that's what I mean.

[Dario Amodei]

Tease will be next.

[Cameron Costa]

Next On Squawkpod, former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb addresses the intense debate surrounding vaccines and the proposed shakeup and how they're regulated.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Americans need to make a decision. Do they want access to the flu vaccine? Even if you choose not to take it, do you want it to be available or not?

[Joe Kernan]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Is only 15 seconds. In that amount of time, there are likely to be an average of over 15,000 cyber threats to all businesses. So there's no time to wait. Get threat ready with comcast [e-mail] cybersecurity.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Cameron Costa]

This is Squawk Pod with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We are here on the East Coast. You happen to be watching Squawk Box. We're on cnbc, all of those things. I'm Andrew Ross Sorkin. You're Joe Kernan.

[Joe Kernan]

Where's Becky?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Becky is on assignment as it happens, but she's gonna be back tomorrow.

[Joe Kernan]

I'm doing nothing.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Just thank you for helping me feeding you.

[Joe Kernan]

In a New England Journal of medicine op ed, 12 former FDA commissioners are sounding the alarm on FDA vaccine coordinator Dr. Vinay Prasad's imposing of sweeping changes to how the U.S. handles vaccinations. Joining us now, former FDA commissioner and CNBC contributor Dr. Scott Gottlieb. He's on the boards of illumina, Pfizer and UnitedHealth. He's also one of the co authors of the op ed. And doctor, just get it out of the way. People are gonna say, oh yeah, gee, a Pfizer guy is promoting vaccines. I don't think it has anything to do with that. And I'm frankly, I don't know what I am in terms of where this is coming from.

In terms of the anti vax movement based on actual data and science. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. So the flu vaccine, I can see if it's 30% effective, why get it? But did we forget polio? Did we forget that this is a very effective way to protect large populations against really terrible things? And that's never going to change, is it? That's almost being called into question. I can't imagine a world that doesn't have vaccines.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

That is being called into question. But even with the flu vaccine, you have a safe and effective vaccine that can provide protection. And it's very important for certain people. It depends on the season that we're in. Some seasons it's highly effective, some seasons it's less effective. It looks to be a little less effective this season based on a certain circulating strains. But some seasons you have a very highly effective flu vaccine. The issue in the OP ed that we wrote or the editorial that we wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine is that they're using their readjudication of some tragic cases that occurred with respect to children who were vaccinated for Covid. That deserves, you know, vigilant investigation to impose sweeping changes on the whole vaccine approval process and move away from a process that we previously had in place called immunobridging studies, where we basically relied on correlates of immunity. We basically relied on the ability of vaccines to elicit an antibody response as a basis of approval. And this was very important for the ability to update vaccines that change seasonally. So the COVID vaccine, for example, but more importantly the flu vaccine or the pneumococcal vaccine, where you had drift in the pathogens or the serotypes that were circulating, you wanted to be able to update those vaccines regularly to make a combination of the changes in the pathogens that were circulating. And and so you relied on these immunobridging studies. And in places where you had very established vaccines, the safety and the efficacy was well understood this was a very important approval paradigm. If in fact they go forward with this policy and I believe they will try to do that, you're not going to be able to update the seasonal flu vaccine. You're not going to be able to update the pneumococcal vaccine. The studies, the outcome studies that they're asking for could cost upwards of a billion dollars. And so what you're going to do is basically hand a monopoly to the incumbents like the company, I'm on the board of Pfizer and, and crowd out biotechnology companies that might have tried to come into the market with either other vaccines, alternatives that could have been lower cost or better vaccines. You're really going to thwart innovation and investment in this space. And that's in fact what's happening. We've seen biotechnology companies and venture capital syndicates pull away from investing in new vaccines, including a vaccine for the Epstein Barr virus.

[Joe Kernan]

Dr. Here's what the FDA said and then we'll get back to just figuring out where.

But the FDA in a statement said the facts, these criticisms are coming. The fact that they're coming from former FDA officials who opposed raising the bar for vaccine science confirms that we're on the right track. Unfortunately, these former officials lowered standards to the point where pneumonia vaccines didn't lower the rate of pneumonia and millions of Americans skipped the annual flu vaccine due to uncertain effectiveness year to date. The American people deserve evidence based science and Dr. Prasad's email lays out a philosophical framework that points us towards that higher standard. We will soon release documents laying out that framework and data confirming how the COVID 19 vaccine resulted in children's deaths that previous leadership failed to properly investigate. So this is a multifaceted discussion that we're having. I'm trying to figure out where it came from and.

The agencies and the administration itself is kind of selecting people that have these notions.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Already.

[Joe Kernan]

Right. Is it all coming down?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yep.

[Joe Kernan]

From RFK Jr. The Secretary. Because even before any of this Covid, what we're talking about with kids and you know what probably should be investigated, but he's been like this for decades, I think, and now the entire agency is in his likeness, image and likeness. And everyone that's hired, yeah, I don't.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Think the entire agency is in his image and likeness. The people who he's politically appointed to run the agency and the political leadership that they put on top of the career divisions that used to be run by expert scientists but now being run by political officials are there to carry out his anti vax agenda.

[Joe Kernan]

And then why did you say he's not? Why did you say they're not in his image? And like you, so you just say that they are in his image. Image in like this, then basically.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Well, you said the people that agree.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay, they're hiring people that agree with him.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

The political leadership. It's a small band of people. You're right. It's interesting in that statement. I haven't seen that statement, this is the first time hearing it, that they refer to Prasad's memo as a philosophical vision. They put it out Friday as a definitive policy. Look, they're systematically trying to dismantle components of the vaccine approval process and make sure vaccines won't be available. I think it's pretty clear right now. And I think they're honest about that. Quite frankly, I don't think they're trying to hide that at this point. That's, in fact what the memo was Friday. And they did it under the pretext of these tragic deaths, which I think is really inappropriate, these deaths in children. If they think there's a causal relationship between the COVID vaccine and those children's deaths, that warrants exhaustive investigation. But they tried to slip in, in announcing that their readjudication of that data, which had previously been reviewed very exhaustively by the fda, they tried to slip in this wholesale remaking of the vaccine approval process for vaccines that have nothing to do with the COVID vaccine. Remember, we even approved the HPV vaccine, which is on the cusp of ending cervical cancer on the basis of these immunobridging studies. This has been an important tool for FDA to get new vaccines on the market. I think what they want is no new vaccines on the market. And look, there are some people, I will give them credit, who have been very honest about that. I think Secretary Kennedy has been very honest about his intentions. I think Prasad, not so much in implementing these policies, hasn't been transparent about the eventual goal of what he's trying to achieve here. But we're at a point right now where there's been such degradation at the fda. I really worry the wheels are coming off that agency at a real critical time in the biotechnology industry. Look, the tariffs have been settled. Companies, big pharma companies now have visibility on their cash flows. They're getting back into doing ma. That's putting a bit under the market. You're seeing the IPO market for biotechnology stocks reopen. You're seeing really stunning data readouts. And so this is really a renaissance period in biotechnology. At a point in which we're trying to compete with China, which is really surging their investments in life sciences. And now you have a deliberate effort to degrade the agency. And there's been a lot of departures from that vaccine review division. There's going to be even more. They're going to be at a point where they can announce these policies, and there's literally going to be no one left to implement them at the agency.

[Joe Kernan]

Doctor, was there a concerted effort in the Biden administration to not be totally forthcoming with the risks for the COVID vaccine with children?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Look, I trust the judgment of the people who were there. They were very good people in those positions, and I've spoken with them, and they did an exhaustive review of these individual cases. Remember the issue of the COVID vaccine in children? And I think we can have a reasonable discussion about how we approach vaccination in children who are at substantially less risk from COVID 19. But there were points in time in this epidemic when children were getting very sick. I think you'll remember in the summer of 2020 when children were getting that inflammatory condition, mis C, during the delta wave, when there was a lot of concern that this was going to hit children harder than adults. That certainly didn't turn out to be the case. But during the delta wave, children were getting sick. Now, like a lot of other components of this epidemic or this pandemic, things changed and things evolved, and our policies didn't change quickly enough to accommodate that. Policymaking is slow, it's retrospective. But I think you can have a reasonable debate about what we should be doing now with respect to vaccinating kids. But this wholesale remaking of the whole vaccine approval process, that's the issue that we wrote about in this editorial, right? It is.

[Joe Kernan]

There's more to. We really do need definitive evidence and studies to make all our decisions. And I think that's one of your problems, is you don't think that's what's the way things are being decided right now.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Well, they're certainly not in the pursuit of definitive evidence. Look, we do have really good studies with respect to vaccines. The vaccines have been approved on the basis of the longest, largest studies that have ever been done. You look at things like the rotavirus vaccine, 60,000 people, HPV10s of thousands, even the COVID vaccine individually, there were 40,000 patient clinical trials. These are large studies that we do. Once we establish a baseline of efficacy for these vaccines, we do allow them to be updated. When you have drift in the viruses on the basis of immunogenicity, the ability to elicit antibodies. That's what Vinay Prasad is saying that they're going to end. They want outcome studies for every vaccine, including the seasonal flu vaccine, which means you're just not going to have it. And so Americans need to make a decision. Do they want access to the flu vaccine? Even if you choose not to take it, do you want it to be available or not?

[Joe Kernan]

All right, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, thanks. Appreciate it. See you later.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Thanks a lot.

[Cameron Costa]

Still to come on Squawk Pod, Andrew recaps the biggest moments from the Dealbook Summit. Where else would Mr. Beast, the Israeli Prime Minister, Scott Besant and Erica Kirk all share a stage?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It was emotional and it was, you know, it was great to have Erica there. It's great to have everyone there, Gavin, Treasury Secretary and Alex Karp and so many others.

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Much as I do, you're gonna love.

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The best stocks in the market list plus exclusive live events.

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This is my first time at the stock exchange and it's been awesome.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

You can be on the front. I just can't believe I'm here.

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[Cameron Costa]

You are listening to Squawkpod. The day after the Dealbook Summit. It is the annual New York Times event that brings leaders across industries and countries even together in one room at Lincoln center for a marathon day of interviews and panels. Here's Andrew Ross Sorkin, our own co host, but also the founder of DealBook. Hatched 24 years ago.

[Joe Kernan]

I asked you if you were glad it's over.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh, Dealbook.

[Joe Kernan]

I mean, you came in a little.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Disheveled, a little dished out.

[Joe Kernan]

Your pants weren't buckled. Your flicking flashlight is on. On your phone. You're gonna. You're gonna run down your.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's true.

[Joe Kernan]

Your battery.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah. You want to know what the score says?

[Joe Kernan]

I want to know what your. Because that was a long day.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

They should do. We should have a daily.

[Joe Kernan]

You're confrontational. You.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

76.

[Joe Kernan]

76.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

That.

[Joe Kernan]

That blows. That's really. That's really not good, is it? I'm in for a tough. Or maybe you are. Maybe we both are.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm in. Yes. Yes.

[Joe Kernan]

Anyway, congrats at. I want to hear.

Like the top three things that you thought were like, wow moments. What people said. I mean, there's the entire Alex Karp interview of wow.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I was gonna say, you know what?

[Joe Kernan]

I like the way he moves around when he's talking.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

He's like.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I mean, I thought the Alex interview in particular was.

[Joe Kernan]

He's so amazing. I mean, he's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I think you got to see fearless. Fearless, but you got to see into his soul. Like, I mean, I think you really got to see the way he thinks about everything.

[Alex Karp]

I didn't shift my politics. The political parties have shifted their politics. The idea that what's being called progressive is in any way progressive is a complete farce. I've been progressive since the beginning of Palantir. I continue to be. I grew up in a highly intellectually intellectual, mostly Jewish, incredibly left wing environment. And every Saturday and every Friday, I heard a lecture about how the conservatives are going to destroy this country with illegal immigration because it's going to undermine the fabric of the American worker. That was 50 years ago. That's what it means to be a progressive. Being progressive doesn't mean just, oh, it feels so good to be involved in dysfunction. Things that can never work. A form of socialism that's never worked. Having no meritocracy that's not progressive. That's honestly cowardly. And most people on half my old party knows it. They don't speak up.

[Joe Kernan]

It's bull.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Later in the day, I spoke with California Governor Gavin Newsom on his views about the future of the Democratic Party.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

The party's knitting itself back together. We got shellacked in the last election, and there's been a lot of forensic analysis, perhaps not enough about what happened. Donald Trump crushed us in the last election.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And what do you think happened?

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

I'm up to page 28 in my analysis of what happened, but at the end of the day, I think we have to become.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Give us a couple of the pages.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Now, look, I mean, we could talk about why Kamala lost, which is separate. I mean, it's derivative of the larger narrative. But issues around inflation, scars. We don't talk enough about interest rates. We don't talk about incumbency issues. Related. You just had beyond related. Israeli politics, immigration, the border in particular. Could talk about all those things. Not just 107 days, not just talk about Biden's determination or lack thereof in terms of passing the baton. But I think there's a broader narrative that we have to address that is we have to be more culturally normal.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

More culturally normal.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Joe.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You got.

[Joe Kernan]

Left's got a long way to go.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I thought you'd appreciate that comment.

[Joe Kernan]

I just, I don't understand the whole Gavin Newsom phenomenon. I just. I just don't.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He is a. Let me just say, having spent a lot of time with different people yesterday, a tremendous orator.

[Joe Kernan]

Right?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Tremendous.

[Joe Kernan]

But you got to run on your record.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, it's an. It's. It's interesting because I pushed him on the record in California.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And despite what we say a lot on this show about everyone leaving California and this and that, the economics, I mean, it's. It's surprising to actually see most of the tech folks have actually, including Elon Musk, actually brought their R and D back to California.

[Joe Kernan]

With what California has going for it, if you can screw that state up and not make it the greatest place in the country with San Francisco, the cities, the weather. That's what I mean. In San Diego and Pebble and just even the Imperial Val, everything is great about it. For you to screw that up to where people are saying, oh, California, you got to work really well.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Look, I think the interesting part is.

[Joe Kernan]

How much is gas? How much is gas. Gasoline out there right now? Is it six bucks a gallon or something? How much is it?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't think it's, I don't think.

[Joe Kernan]

It'S that much I'm type.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But, but I do think it's going to be. Look, the question is whether the country Democrats in America are going to look at either a place like California or a place like New York, I mean, or any of those kind of places as sort of an example of what they think the entire country should be. I don't know. I don't know where, where it'll land. But I will say in terms of.

[Joe Kernan]

Trying to fight a fire and they got no water. I mean, it screwed up more things.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Than he would debate you on the fire point. But I will say, I will say on the, just the ability of all of the folks who are in the Democratic Party right now, the ability to sort of fight fire with fire in terms of the rhetoric with Trump and sort of mirroring the language and sort of being able to, you could tell.

[Joe Kernan]

That'S his one claim to fame, is that he's, he's got, you know, he said nasty things to the mean orange man. That's his one claim to fame. That's the Democrat model for what to do against Trump.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it's going to be the model.

[Joe Kernan]

I'm just saying Josh Shapiro, someone that can talk and it has a good record. And I mean, I'm not telling you who to run or I'm not telling.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Democrats who to run. That guy.

[Joe Kernan]

I'm not telling Democrats who to run. But do you think. I don't think Gavin will beat the Republican. I don't think the country is there, the majority of the country. I think we find out every four years that the country is not where.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I have no idea. I want to see where we're going to be in 26 before I have any idea.

[Joe Kernan]

I think Alex made a lot more sense about what progressive means, but progressive right now means regressive. It basically. It's like calling a bald guy curly.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, talking about progressives and conservatives, I spoke with Erica Kirk, of course, the widow of Charlie Kirk, who is now the CEO of Turning Point usa, and she took over that organization following the murder of her husband in September. I asked her about how she thinks about the future of the Republican Party.

[Erica Kirk]

Ever since Charlie was murdered, there has been conversation across the whole right side of who believes this, what believes that, where are we standing on half of, you know, where is the youth going? This direction? It's, it's a conversation that's being had that is, again, uncomfortable and riling things up. But I think it's healthy because once you have those conversations, then you come to a full point and maybe it takes a little while, but usually you come to a point of understanding of this is what we believe.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

In funeral of the service for Charlie Kirk, Erica forgave his assassin. It was a powerful moment and I asked her to share about how she was able to get to that point.

[Erica Kirk]

If you look at my speech notes, that part I prayed on so heavily beforehand and that was a game time, exact second to second moment. That was not something pre planned. That was not. Because I'm not going to say something I don't truly believe. And when I prayed on it, I knew that the Lord would really press it on my heart. And if I was meant to say it because I truly meant it and believed it, then I was going to say it, but I was not going to preplan that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And it was an emotional conversation. She also shared a fascinating story about how Charlie had talked to her about how he wanted to bring President Trump and Elon Musk back together, that he wanted to be the peacemaker and suggested that would happen, in fact by Christmas of this year. And she said that it happened at his funeral.

[Joe Kernan]

It did. I remember. I think that's when it was noted that they sort of re. I don't know. I think there's actually video of the.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Moment, of the moment when they. And you know, he tweeted out. I think for Charlie. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was very. It was emotional and it was, you know, it was great to have Erica there. It's great to have everyone there, Gavin, Treasury Secretary and Alex Karp and so many others.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah. She's in a position to have an opinion about whether the guy should be forgiven or not. So I'm not going to say that I haven't forgiven him, but because it's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, we talked.

[Joe Kernan]

There's nothing to do with me, but I haven't forgiven. I will not.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

By the way, we had a conversation about that issue and the fact, by the way, that the President, moments later, obviously at the same funeral, said that he. No, never was not in that forgiving position.

[Joe Kernan]

No.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And she had a very interesting thought about that, which was that she, she almost finds it freeing for herself.

[Joe Kernan]

I understand. Because it's. He's got Charlie. Kirk's gone. So anything that's left is, is your own internal. It's how you're responding to what happened at that point. Because it's too late.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I wish I, I wish I could have that that ability.

[Joe Kernan]

I just don't. If you forgive, then maybe you're not as diligent about making sure it doesn't happen again.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh, no, no. I think. I don't. I don't. I don't put it in that context at all. For her.

[Cameron Costa]

That's the podcast for today. Thank you for tuning in as always. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Weekday mornings on CNBC at 6am Eastern to get the best, best bits of that TV show, plus a bunch extra. Follow Squawk Pod wherever you get your podcasts. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow. Have a great day.

[Joe Kernan]

We are clear.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thanks, guys.

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Much as I do, you're gonna love.

[Podcast Announcer]

The best stocks in the market list, plus exclusive live events.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This is my first time at the stock exchange and it's been awesome to.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Be on the floor. I just can't believe I'm here.

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