Becky Quick (1:17)

The strange bedfellows, partnership. That sounds like the beginning of a late night comedy sketch.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (1:22)

Yes, I was surprised. In fact, I did not recognize the phone number.

Becky Quick (1:26)

Senator Elizabeth Warren may be working with President Trump to cap interest rates on credit cards. Stranger things.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (1:33)

He had not lifted a finger to try to get something through on credit card interest rate caps and how to.

Becky Quick (1:41)

Be happier in 2026. Arthur Brooks says put away your phone.

Arthur Brooks (1:46)

News has always been tough. We want to know what's going on in the world. The problem is that there are no boundaries to it.

Becky Quick (1:52)

Plus violence in Iran, Netflix's potential all cash offer for Warner Brothers discovery and the rest of today's news that got us squawking.

Joe Kernan (2:00)

Congress is going to have a heart attack.

Becky Quick (2:03)

It's Wednesday, January 14, 2026. Squawkpod begins right now.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (2:08)

Stand Becky by in three, two, one.

Arthur Brooks (2:11)

Cuba, please.

Host/Moderator (2:14)

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Squawkbox right here on cnbc. We're live from the NASDAQ market site in Times Square Square. I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin.

Joe Kernan (2:24)

Want to talk about the banks. Remember JP Morgan financials had a rough day yesterday. Yeah. And JP Morgan initially was up 5% or something. Closed down 4%, the 10% thing, the.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (2:34)

Caps and the credit cards.

Joe Kernan (2:36)

Inflation was, was pretty good numbers yesterday. I mean it could have been a good day but you know, I looked at how our, our poor, not poor, but you know, CNBC Writes what happened yesterday and I looked at them explaining what happened. They mentioned Greenland because there's a big meeting today. They mentioned Iran. I mean if you want to find.

Host/Moderator (2:59)

Things, there's a lot to look at.

Joe Kernan (3:01)

There's a lot to look at. But just on pure earnings, JP Morgan was pretty good.

Host/Moderator (3:07)

They did have a surprising decline in their investment banking that was not a decline, but lower than had been anticipated on closer inspection.

Joe Kernan (3:13)

Is that from some of those.

Host/Moderator (3:15)

And it did raise some questions about what you're going to see from Goldman Sachs.

Joe Kernan (3:18)

Can do it all again today with banks and ppi. The death toll, nobody knows, but it's rising in Iran as the government cracks down on protesters. A U. S based rights group said it had verified at this point about 2,600 deaths, including about 2,400 protesters and 150 government affiliated individuals. The protest began last month over soaring inflation morphed into a broader challenge obviously to the mullahs in Iran's establishment. There the theocracy or thugocracy people are calling it on truth social. Yesterday, President Trump told Iranians to keep protesting and said help is on its way. Asked later in the day what he meant by that, President told reporters that they would have to figure it out. I guess just saying wait, cover the posts today. You can always, they always can dig up something even, I don't know, more compelling for the COVID of the Post, I guess. But according to an eyewitness that they have, if you want to get the body back from one of your loved ones, as much as a $5,000 bullet fee is what the post, it's right on the COVID of the post. So not only are protesters being shot, but families are being forced to pay bullet fees of roughly $5,000 to get the body of their loved ones back, according to an eyewitness in Tehran who writes for the Post.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (4:46)

Wow. Totally bizarre.

Joe Kernan (4:48)

Well, not, none of that, not one part of that is a good story at all. But then again, what do we do? I mean, is it when they said if they keep shooting, we're going to start shooting, is that Congress is going to have a heart attack.

Host/Moderator (5:07)

In the meantime, President Trump responding to comments from JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon who said anything that chips away at Fed independence is a bad idea. Here's the president speaking with reporters yesterday.

Joe Kernan (5:19)

I think it's fine what I'm doing.

Arthur Brooks (5:21)

And we have a bad fed person. He was extended by Biden and yeah.

Joe Kernan (5:27)

I think he's wrong. I think it's wrong. He's, he's Done a bad job.

Arthur Brooks (5:30)

We should have lower rates. Jamie Dimon probably wants higher rates.

Joe Kernan (5:33)

Maybe he makes more money that way.

Host/Moderator (5:36)

Dimon made his remarks after JP Morgan released fourth quarter earnings. He was commenting on the Justice Department's criminal investigation of Fed Chair Jay Powell related to a multibillion dollar Fed renovation project. And by the way, those comments were relatively tame. If you read what he said, he basically said anything that chips away is not at the central bank's independence is not a good idea. In my view, it will have the reverse consequences. It will raise inflation expectations and probably increase rates over time. But of course, anything Jamie Dimon says gets outsized attention by anybody who covers the banks, who covers Wall street, who covers business in general. The Financial Times is reporting that Powell provided senators with details about that project last summer. That could undermine the Trump administration's claims that Powell misled Congress. In the meantime, the Wall Street Journal says that the Fed received grand jury subpoenas one day after President Trump criticized US Attorneys at a White House event, telling them that they were weak and weren't moving fast enough against his perceived targets.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:38)

Meantime, President Trump also defending his proposal to cap credit card interest rates at 10% for a year. He's telling reporters that he wants to protect people from being charged high rates by, in his words, Jamie Dimon or anyone else. You can see how this sort of war of words can escalate and we're going to be speaking.

Host/Moderator (6:56)

I don't even know that Jamie's was a war of words.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (6:59)

No, no, no.

Host/Moderator (7:00)

This stuff.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:01)

I don't know what the past. No, I know. But what happens. Invariably, Jamie Dimon thinks you're a jerk. Jamie's asked to comment on it, so he does. Which, by the way, is the right thing to do.

Host/Moderator (7:11)

Right.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:12)

I would argue. And then invariably, a reporter who's also looking for a quote when they see President Trump says, jamie says the opposite of what you're doing. Jamie, what do you think? And then, of course he does. You know, the President says it, but it says it in a much harsher and Right.

Joe Kernan (7:29)

He always hits back harder than tone.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:32)

It's a very unique moment where you have all of different sides coming together and I imagine also splitting apart.

Joe Kernan (7:40)

You got to be conflicted on this. I'm totally conflicted on this idea of not at all.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:46)

Like, I'm not at all.

Host/Moderator (7:48)

You don't think it's the right thing, Right?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (7:49)

I'm not at all. Because I'm not at all. Because I have a spine, because I don't believe in caps and I don't believe. I believe in free markets and capitalism and I also believe in the independence of the Fed and I don't care about the politics. And I think that everybody should be able to do that.

Joe Kernan (8:04)

You could. Perfectly intelligent. But to have Elizabeth Warren and President Trump talking on the phone and she says we could get something passed legislatively if you were behind this and cap these things permanently. That is a surreal world that we are living in. Maybe you're not conflicted, but the reason I'm conflicted is because what are you conflicted. I'm conflicted that Trump. I'm conflicted.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (8:32)

It's crazy.

Joe Kernan (8:33)

I'm conflicted that Trump and Elizabeth Warren are on the same side of something.

Host/Moderator (8:38)

I bet they're on the same side of about three or four or five things.

Joe Kernan (8:40)

Huh?

Host/Moderator (8:41)

I bet they're on the same side of about three or four or five things.

Joe Kernan (8:43)

And any of those things I probably would. It's like not Enemy of Money. But I disagree with most of the things that Senator Warren proposes or that anyone on the far left proposes. Anything trending towards what's been so interesting about President Trump is more and more those things are.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:02)

But then tell me why can only.

Joe Kernan (9:03)

Be so many one up and tell.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (9:04)

Me why a classic conservative is not out publicly deriding this.

Joe Kernan (9:08)

I think they are. I am. I don't think that that's a good idea. I'll tell you a lot of things. Even if you're not a fan of Jay Powell because they waited too long to raise rates and maybe that had something to do with inflation. This is like the last thing that the Trump administration really wants as we go towards the midterms is something that doesn't just highlight GDP numbers and the inflation numbers coming down. It's a total distraction from being able to sell or at least promote the good things that are happening.

Host/Moderator (9:42)

Because it brings everybody out to defend Jay Powell and the Fed as the institution.

Joe Kernan (9:46)

A lot of people that are on the side of the president. That's what they said. It's like you don't need this right now. I think that's what Scott Besant was saying. You got all these good things to talk about and because of what's happening with. But Trump still says he doesn't. He didn't know.

Host/Moderator (10:01)

Well he doubled down though yesterday. He said that jerk at one point referring to Jay Powell. The comments that he made yesterday in front of reporters. So he's not.

Joe Kernan (10:09)

And then there are backing the. There are real dead enders that are saying look, no one's above the law. And it's way over by. And Luna is right. The congresswoman that referred the stuff to the Justice Department. Supposedly that's where it came from. That's what Bill Pulte said. It wasn't me, it was her. And President Trump says, it wasn't me, it was her that got the.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (10:29)

But these are all his people who are doing this.

Joe Kernan (10:32)

And Pam Bondi. And that was a great. That was what was great about that Journal piece yesterday, that people are scrambling to try and get to curry favor and doing things that they think he wants.

Host/Moderator (10:43)

Toadies, I think is what they did.

Joe Kernan (10:45)

They called them toadies. A toady is something you don't want to be called. I think I've been called a toady before. Netflix is reportedly considering an all cash bid for for the streaming and studio assets of Warner Brothers Discovery. Reports say a cash offer could be a faster way to close a deal. Warner Bros. Discovery is facing a competing bid from Paramount, Skydance and its CEO David Ellison. He wants to buy all of Warner Brothers, including the company's cable TV channels. Paramount sued Warner Brothers on Monday for information about its deal with Netflix and said it plans to nominate directors to Warner's board. And something that you rarely see. I was like, you know, it's in the Journal. Did you guys see this? The big story on Netflix is on B1. That's the big story. So I got to the bottom of it and I'm like, that's it. Short on details, three paragraphs.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:37)

But, oh, you know what? It came in late.

Host/Moderator (11:39)

It happens late.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:40)

And you just, you're old school. You're still reading the print edition. There's a longer version online.

Joe Kernan (11:45)

Online.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:46)

Online. On the computer.

Host/Moderator (11:48)

Yeah. It just means it happens.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:49)

So on your hardware.

Joe Kernan (11:50)

I pay a subscription, but now I'm not sure of what. My past, you know, it's hard. And anyway, Netflix, it doesn't make any.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (11:57)

Sense for them to do anything right now.

Joe Kernan (11:59)

If Netflix is 72 billion and if you value Paramount at 77.9 billion, you really gotta question, you gotta use what the Warner Brothers strategy is and question whether it's really whether that's money. Good. 77 cash. But if they went to 72 cash, that would definitely be money. Good at 70, because the collar on the stock.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:19)

But if Netflix right now, you know, it's the incentive to do anything. No incentive to be bidding against yourself. You should just leave it, stay where you are until you actually see how this plays out. You don't want. You think Netflix is going to make a move before Paramount makes a move.

Joe Kernan (12:35)

It looks like they will in terms of all cash, don't you think?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:38)

I don't know.

Joe Kernan (12:39)

I would think, David.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:41)

I think you'd wait for the Ellison's.

Joe Kernan (12:42)

First and that could be any day with them too, don't you think?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:46)

If you believe they're going to come and then the question is well, how are they going to guarantee it because and I think there's going to be.

Joe Kernan (12:51)

An issue again, no matter what Larry Ellison says, you'll still say we don't believe you.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (12:56)

Probably not necessarily. But if he gets many different things.

Joe Kernan (13:00)

How many different things are cobbled together to get to that, that how many.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (13:04)

Banks debt payments are a big deal. So it's very hard to make it work unless, unless, unless the Ellison family genuinely says this is all on us and it's all locked up.

Host/Moderator (13:15)

In the meantime, you're going to hear a lot of back and forth.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (13:20)

Teas will be next.

Becky Quick (13:21)

Coming up on Squawk Pod, Senator Elizabeth Warren, noted progressive and ranking member of the powerful Senate Banking Committee on the potential to put a cap on credit card interest rates.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (13:32)

Is there anybody defending 36% interest rate on credit cards or 28% interest on.

Becky Quick (13:38)

Credit cards and her unlikely ally in the fight?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (13:42)

You know, it really was one of those moments. I don't usually pick up the phone when I don't recognize the number.

Arthur Brooks (13:50)

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Senator Elizabeth Warren (14:06)

Mmm.

Arthur Brooks (14:07)

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Senator Elizabeth Warren (14:20)

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Senator Elizabeth Warren (14:31)

It's crazy what people say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sail or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time. Sometimes.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (14:45)

AT&T business Wireless Connecting changes everything.

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Host/Moderator (15:26)

All right, welcome back, everybody. President Trump reached out to Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren for a conversation that the White House called productive. Joining us right now with the details of how that conversation came about and maybe some areas where they can work together is Senator Elizabeth Warren. She is the lead Democrats Democrat on the Banking Committee. And Senator, thank you for being with us. It almost sounds like a Saturday Night Live skit that the two of you actually spoke and had something that the White House called productive. First of all, how did this conversation come about? It was after a speech that you had given that was actually pretty fiery.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (15:59)

That's right. I had just given a speech about the future of the Democratic Party. And the basic point that I made in the speech is that Donald Trump had promised for an entire year in the run up to the 2024 election that on day one, he would lower costs for American families. He gets elected and the very first interview, he says on day one that he will lower costs for American families and that that's why he got elected. And yet here we are a year in and the cost of groceries is up, the cost of utilities is up, the cost of housing is up, the cost of health care is up, up, up, and all of those costs are up because of policies that Donald Trump and the Republicans in Congress have pushed on our economy. So the argument I was making in the speech is it's time for Democrats to jump in to hold Donald Trump and the Republicans accountable for these higher costs for American families and then make a choice as we go forward. We can take our economic agenda and sand it down, narrow it down to make it more acceptable to billionaire donors, or we can actually go full throated on behalf of the American people and make bold proposals and demonstrate that we will get in there and fight for them. But this was all about lowering costs for American families because that's what Democrats are going to do and that's what the election of 2026 is going to be about.

Host/Moderator (17:38)

So shortly afterwards, you get a call from the president. Were you surprised what happened?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (17:43)

Yes, I was surprised. In fact, I did not recognize the phone number. And so the question then is he raises the point about a cap on credit card interest rates, something that had come up in the speech and that I've been working on for years. And that is trying to get interest rates down. And he said he wanted to work on that. And I said, great, let's get something done. Because my point was, and I had made this point in the speech, he had not lifted a finger to try to get something through on credit card interest rate caps. And then while I had him, I said, you know, there's something else you could do just right away. We need to bring down the cost of housing. And the way we do that is to increase housing supply all across this country. We're 3 million units of housing short and we need urban housing, rural housing, housing for first time home buyers, housing for renters, housing for seniors, housing for people with disabilities. So I had worked with Chairman Tim Scott, the Republican chair of the Banking Committee. We put together a bill that had 40 proposals in it. Every one of them aimed toward increasing supply, making it easier to get approvals. More on manufactured housing. Passed the Senate unanimously, unanimously, and yet goes over to the House and the House Republicans won't move it at all. Gets tangled up over there. And I said, Mr. President, you want to help bring down the cost of housing? Light a fire under your House Republicans, get them to move this bill. Let's get it signed into law. And let's get started now on a first step on lowering housing costs. So we have a lot to talk about.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (19:44)

I want to go back to credit cards just for a moment because there is a study by a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania's warden school, suggesting that a 10% cap could make up to 80% of customers of credit cards in America unprofitable at the current lending rates and credit limits, which suggests that there would be a meaningfully meaningful reduction in the amount of credit potentially made available to customers if something like this were to go into effect. What do you make of that?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (20:17)

Well, first, obviously I want to take a look at their data, but I also just want to start with the big picture here. Is there anybody defending 36% interest rate on credit cards or 28% interest on credit cards? Anybody out there who isn't paid by the industry that's putting out those credit cards? And do keep in mind, right now there are a lot of community banks, there are a lot of credit unions that are putting out credit cards at much, much lower interest rates. But what do the credit card company giants say? They say, oh no, you can't touch credit card interest rates, no matter what. It will be the end of the world. We will shut down credit cards. They go on and on and on. And basically it's the same song they sang over. What would happen if the CFPB put some caps on overdraft fees? What would happen if the CFPB put caps on fees on credit cards? You know, the credit card companies literally make billions of dollars. Last year, they made $150 billion in profits off the credit cards that American families are holding. So we have some choices to make. Do the investors and the corporate executives keep that $150 billion, or does some chunk of that go back to hardworking families who are just trying to pay their mortgage, just trying to pay for groceries every month?

Joe Kernan (21:56)

Senator, cumulatively, prices rose 22% in the Biden administration. So much, in fact, that real average wages were lower when Biden left the office than when he came in. Inflation was today 2.7%. It's still too high, obviously. But how are you blaming Trump's policies on the affordability crisis when you're talking about 2.7% versus 22%?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (22:25)

Well, let's, let's talk about what's happened, and that is that Trump's tariffs have driven up prices. Trump's chaos from the tariffs and other changes have driven up prices. Trump's energy policies have driven up prices. Price of utilities. Take a look around. And Trump's decisions, along with the Republican Party, to cut access to health care has driven up the cost of health care for some families double and even triple. So we're talking about Trump policies, Trump policies that have driven up costs for American families. You know, just pick one little piece out of that. Have you observed what's happening to home mortgage foreclosures? Do you know that since Donald Trump was sworn in, home mortgage foreclosures have gone up 21%? So, yeah, there have been a lot of policies that Donald Trump and the Republicans have been following for a year now, and it is showing up in the cost that people pay.

Joe Kernan (23:34)

I was trying to do the. I was trying to do the composite of putting everything together instead of picking individual things. And that's 2.7% versus a high of 9% during the Biden. So oil's, Oil's down. At least most prices don't drop. Senator, you know, the Fed looks for a 2% inflation rate. That's the target. So prices continue to rise every single year because we don't want deflation. So 2.7, while not great, is nothing close to what we had under, under the Democratic administration.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (24:06)

You know, Joe, what you should do, you should go lecture to every American family around the country who is saying they feel under enormous economic stress. 80% of Americans say, I'm worrying about whether or not I can make it to the end of the month on my paycheck. I'm worried about whether or not I can send my kids to. Worried about whether or not I will ever have a chance to retire. American families are mashed to the wall on prices. They are not able to take their paychecks and stretch them far enough and build some real economic security. And part of that is because Donald Trump, in the one year that he has been in office, after promising how many times during the election, at least hundreds of times, promising to lower costs on day one, the cost that families have to deal with up close and personal every day. Those costs, groceries, utilities, housing, health care, those costs are up and it's putting a squeeze on American families. You can go tell them it's not, but I don't think they're going to believe you.

Host/Moderator (25:21)

I'm trying to read the room here. Do you get the sense that you and President Trump will actually be working on things together, or do you think that this was just talk and that no action will come of it?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (25:33)

I don't know. You'd have to ask Donald Trump. I'm ready to go. I've got the legislation ready to go. We've got the housing bill that we've already gotten all the way through the Senate. I've worked with every Republican to get that done. My job is to do anything I can to lower costs for American families. And the Democratic Party is ready to go. We stand behind that. The question is, right now all the Republicans have done is raise costs for American families. Donald Trump says no. He wants to be in the business of lowering those costs. My answer is talk is cheap. But if he's really ready to put up and get something done, then let's do it.

Host/Moderator (26:14)

Did you said you didn't recognize the phone number when it came in? Did you save the number into your contacts?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (26:22)

You know, it really was one of those moments I don't usually pick up the phone when I don't recognize the number. And I thought, hey, I just come out of giving this speech and I thought, eh, 202.

Joe Kernan (26:32)

You can put a special ringtone on there. Senator. I've seen it on Landman, what his wife calls on Landman. That's just really scary. I think you can.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (26:44)

It's a great touch.

Host/Moderator (26:46)

Senator Warren, thank you for joining us this morning.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (26:48)

Thank you for having me.

Becky Quick (26:52)

Coming up on squawk pod, be happier with less technology and less envy.

Joe Kernan (26:57)

It just seems kind of obvious. And maybe I don't need Arthur Brooks to tell me that.

Arthur Brooks (27:01)

You need Arthur Brooks.

Joe Kernan (27:02)

Okay, I do need you to tell me that.

Becky Quick (27:04)

Happiness guru Arthur Brooks is. New Year's resolutions are next.

Joe Kernan (27:13)

Choose to lean into it.

Becky Quick (27:16)

Every Mazda is engineered to give you effortless control.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (27:22)

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Senator Elizabeth Warren (27:57)

Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card.

Becky Quick (28:03)

They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (28:05)

Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Getith with the Times. With the Times. You're playing the loot.

Becky Quick (28:16)

Yeah.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (28:16)

And it sounds pretty good, right?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (28:18)

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

Becky Quick (28:28)

Welcome back. This is Squawk Pod up and Andrew Q.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (28:33)

You're watching Squawk Box right here on cnbc. I'm Andrew Oz Sorkin along with Joe Kernan and Becky Quick. This morning. We got a lot going on.

Joe Kernan (28:40)

Arthur is here. Weigh in on a busy start for 2026. Let's bring in Harvard professor Arthur Brooks. He's so much more than that. I didn't mean to start out disparaging you. His new new column for the Free Press is titled the problem with your New Year Resolution. And Arthur is. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Welcome.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (29:03)

Love to see you uphill.

Joe Kernan (29:05)

Uphill battle. You've been swimming upstream ever since. I don't know why someone would decide to try to help people with happiness in the current world. And what I mean by that is, I think of 100 years ago and I wonder if you went out in the fields for 10 hours after getting up early and, and, you know, put in a day where, you know, the dignity of work and physical labor and the endorphins go, you come home and it's warm and there's some hot food on the stove and you get a good night's sleep, Is that possible anymore in the modern world? Because we don't have any problem. We're not worried about. Most of us hopefully aren't worried about staying warm. We're not worried about sustenance and things like that. And yet we're miserable.

Arthur Brooks (29:49)

Yeah. Well, you bring up a really good Point which is that you're, you know, the great granddad Kernan didn't come home and say to his wife, honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today.

Joe Kernan (29:59)

That.

Arthur Brooks (29:59)

And that's the reason, was because, effectively, his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. And we actually have to take a lesson from people in the past. Now, I don't want to go back in time, but the truth of the matter is that. That we need to live in all sorts of ways where we're concentrating on our work. And that's one of the reasons that you find that the habits of the happiest people are their faith or philosophical life, their family life, their friendships, their deep friendships. I meant real friends, not deal friends, and certainly not virtual friends. And then the work that you. That you're needed for. And so that's the things that we need to be focusing on today.

Joe Kernan (30:31)

One of your themes throughout, I think all of your books.

Arthur Brooks (30:34)

Absolutely, yes.

Joe Kernan (30:35)

Is the dignity of work. I was going to say. It just seems kind of obvious, and maybe I don't need Arthur Brooks to. To tell me that.

Arthur Brooks (30:42)

You need Arthur Brooks.

Joe Kernan (30:43)

Okay. I do need you to tell me this.

Arthur Brooks (30:44)

That's right. You're reading my column, new column in.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (30:48)

The Free Press, folks.

Joe Kernan (30:49)

But if all I did was read newspapers, or even, as Andrew does, read the newspapers online, like this newfangled thing that people do.

Arthur Brooks (30:58)

Fangled.

Joe Kernan (30:59)

No kidding. But if I were to do like.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (31:00)

He'S newfangled to him, if I were.

Joe Kernan (31:02)

To do it that way, you would be bogged down in Iran and, you know, Ukraine and, you know, so many things. You have to fall back on what you have personally with your family. You have to compartmentalize it and be happy with your family and whatever it is that you're doing for self fulfillment. And so I think that's obvious.

Arthur Brooks (31:27)

Yeah, that's obvious, except it's lost to a lot of people.

Joe Kernan (31:30)

I know they did.

Arthur Brooks (31:31)

This is one of the points that I, you know, this column I'm writing about in the Free Press twice a week, actually, is to deal with these. These everyday issues in people's lives.

Joe Kernan (31:38)

And.

Arthur Brooks (31:38)

And one of the things that you bring up, which is really important, is not that the bad news is going to ruin our lives. That's not the case. News has always been tough. We want to know what's going on in the world. The problem is that there are no boundaries to it. So people will say, you know, the economy is stressing me out. The environment is stressing me out. No, what's stressing you out is the way that you're getting that information, which is to say all day long in the little device in your mind pocket. You know, it's kind of like the bubonic plague. People thought it was bad air, it was rats. Well, now we've got rats that we pull out of our pockets and pet all day long. And they're making us sick a lot of the time. And so we actually have to wall that off. We need barriers around actually how much information we get from, you know, I.

Joe Kernan (32:17)

Don'T know what comes first. Sometimes I see people that their entire life is devoted to angst about the current situation in the country. They travel from city to city expressing themselves. Now, was there a hole in their being to start with? And this sort of cause fulfills what's missing. Because if that's what it is, something was missing before.

Arthur Brooks (32:42)

Yeah, of course.

Joe Kernan (32:44)

And a lot of times it's. I'm not going to blame it on all young people, but it just seems like there's a lost generation, which is.

Arthur Brooks (32:52)

Yeah, well, if when you look at activism in general, and I got nothing against activism per se, but when it takes over your life, whether it's left wing activism or right wing activism, that's something that you're screaming at. You're looking for the meaning of your life, you know, and the meaning of your life would come from more traditional means. And when we're in a secularizing society and families are fragmenting and friends are online, well, guess what? We don't find it. And so the result of it is that we'll put all your friends online. People look for it online. And people do that constantly. This is one of the things that I write about a lot is that people have fake religions. This is what has done so much harm in business, has done government, certainly at universities, is people with their fake religions of activism have wound up substituting anger for love.

Host/Moderator (33:33)

That's not a new thing, activism on college campuses.

Arthur Brooks (33:36)

It's not. What happens is when it gets too high and it kind of turns over the apple cart. So inquiry is the business of universities and higher education, education in general. But when advocacy takes over for inquiry, then you get the balance is all wrong. And then what happens is that you're not teaching.

Host/Moderator (33:54)

I understand, like not wanting advocacy coming from the teaching population, but you know, advocacy from students. Look back at the.

Arthur Brooks (34:02)

That's always happening 60s, sure, but that, that has been so radically emphasized because.

Host/Moderator (34:07)

They had something to really protest about.

Arthur Brooks (34:08)

But really what it is, once again is that that's A sign that people are seeking something deeper. That's a cry for help. Most of the things that we complain about, for example, conspiracy theories, that's a cry for what we call coherence in behavioral science, which is I don't understand how the world works. Why do things happen the way that they do? And if you don't have religion, if you don't understand science, then you're going to go down the rabbit hole of something you're finding on the Internet.

Host/Moderator (34:31)

Like the earth is flat and we never landed on the moon.

Arthur Brooks (34:34)

Exactly. Or anything crazy about the people that you hate. In politics. Those conspiracy theories are a cry for help about meaning is the way that that works. And if we started to treat each other with a little bit of grace, a little bit of love, a little bit of understanding, we could actually bring something better to these people. That's what I think our objective should be.

Joe Kernan (34:52)

This is not new, Arthur, and I know that. Does everyone know about Maslow's hierarchy?

Arthur Brooks (35:00)

Not everybody, but I'm doing my best to bring it to everybody.

Joe Kernan (35:03)

Well, okay, so it's like this. And at the bottom you've got shelter and sustenance and you slowly go up to things that we need. At the very top is self actualization. Right.

Arthur Brooks (35:16)

That's a sense of meaning.

Joe Kernan (35:17)

So basically this still holds. How long ago is that?

Arthur Brooks (35:21)

1942.

Joe Kernan (35:22)

So 1942, we still, we haven't learned anything. So you should just focus on the very top of that and.

Arthur Brooks (35:29)

No, you need to.

Joe Kernan (35:30)

How do you self actualize?

Arthur Brooks (35:32)

Self actualize? Well, here's the point. Happiness is love. Meaning is love. The more that you're paying attention to the love relationships and your life, focusing on that, putting your energy into the love relationships in your life, the more you're going to find meaning, the more you're going to find happiness.

Joe Kernan (35:45)

What if it's just yourself that you love? Then it might be a problem.

Arthur Brooks (35:48)

Well, then you've got a bigger problem. The truth is you don't understand how to love yourself until you have other people in your life.

Joe Kernan (35:52)

You do need to love yourself, but maybe not spend your entire life doing that.

Arthur Brooks (35:55)

Well, that's probably looking in the mirror is not the problem.

Joe Kernan (35:58)

To the exclusion of everything. To the exclusion of everything else.

Host/Moderator (36:01)

There's also less envy, right?

Arthur Brooks (36:02)

There's a lot. Yeah, envy's funny because envy is actually a natural human human. It's a phenomenon based on the fact that we're kin based species and we want to know where we are in the hierarchy and so we compare ourselves to others. Chronically. The problem is that if we're not grateful for what we have, if we're not actually able to compliment other people for the good things that they do. So, you know, the solution to envy in our own lives is admiration.

Joe Kernan (36:29)

I was thinking about how every generation thinks that the upper upcoming generation is not going to be equipped to take over over the world. And I lived through it in the 60s and 70s. I wanted to be like Dennis Hopper from Easy Rider back then. And people would look at me and think, look at you. You're, you know, now I'm the one that. I feel myself falling into that same trap with people with hair that the color of it doesn't exist in nature. Or hair, blue hair. You know, the people that I see just raging on Twitter about ignorantly about a lot of things, they're the future generation. Did social media make it worse? Are they. Can we save this entire generation?

Arthur Brooks (37:12)

So social media brought up the worst than everybody. And part of the reason is gave people who didn't really know anything a platform, whether they're old or they're young. And then you nut pick that. Because the most outrageous things are the things that become salient.

Joe Kernan (37:24)

The algorithm shows we think everybody's like.

Arthur Brooks (37:26)

The truth is that that's not how everybody is. This is not what we.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (37:28)

I have a separate theory of the case that goes to your envy piece.

Arthur Brooks (37:32)

Okay, good.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (37:33)

I'm curious where you land on this. So I have a view that social media has created an even greater sense of inequality in the world.

Arthur Brooks (37:42)

Yeah.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (37:42)

Because depending on where you live in the economic strata, you're now extra exposed to. You know, it used to be you'd watch Robin Leach, what was his name? Lifestyles of the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, and you'd see a show and maybe you'd see what some kind of big house looks like or whatever. Now you're inundated on the scroll by this whole other world that, that I think a lot of people both envy and because they can't, they think that they have no access to.

Host/Moderator (38:18)

But a lot of it's fake.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (38:19)

Well, part of it may very well be fake, but they also look at it and think, I think it harms their own view of themselves, their own dignity. They then have lots of negative feelings about the people that do. I mean, here we are in this sort of class of there's sort of.

Arthur Brooks (38:36)

This admiration that people have toward people who have more than they do, but there's an envy. You want to tear it down as well.

Joe Kernan (38:40)

Correct.

Arthur Brooks (38:40)

Because you feel like you can't correct.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (38:42)

And I think, I think that this actually more than anything actually exacerbates it and then not only exacerbates it, then gives voice to everybody on all sides and then creates this sort of even greater schism.

Arthur Brooks (38:56)

That's right. And the human brain can't accommodate itself to comparison across large groups of people, Homo sapiens. Their brains are accommodated to live in the Pleistocene about 250,000 years ago, where all humanity lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals. Kin based, hierarchical. And you compared yourself to, I don't know, 20, 30, 40 other people. That's what it came down to. You can't conceive of. Your brain doesn't work right when you're comparing yourself to millions of other people way, way out of your stratum. And that creates tons of unhappiness. Envy is the only one of the deadly sins that's not even fun. And that's a problem, isn't it?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (39:33)

What do you do about that? Elizabeth Warren often talks about, I can.

Joe Kernan (39:37)

Come up with a couple of of them. Inequality.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (39:40)

But, but here's the issue and it's. It is this question about inequality also as we talk about what people think is affordable, what they think they should be able to get or shouldn't be able to get, you know, in this day and age, I think a lot of people believe that they should be able to, you know, have dinner every single night from Uber Eats.

Joe Kernan (40:00)

Right?

Andrew Ross Sorkin (40:01)

That is not something that, because so many others.it changes the level at which people think that things are happening.

Joe Kernan (40:10)

Right?

Arthur Brooks (40:10)

No, that's exactly right. Again, when you compare yourself to somebody who has way more than you, you really can't conceive of your life about more than one and a half levels above where you were born. So if you're lower middle class is kind of upper middle class is what you can really conceive of. And there's a lot of theory about, there's a lot of research on this. And so when people are being exposed to so super, super, super rich, you get this weird kind of envious social comparison that's going on. And when you think about it, fame is the only one of the world's idols that you can't ever be happy except in spite of. I don't have to tell you that. I mean, you've got this book that's been for a million weeks on the bestseller list and you're on TV all the time. You walk down the street. I've been with you in public, Andrew. I mean, it's weird. I mean, you can't have a normal life under the circumstances. Now imagine that you're actually of this world fame because you're so unbelievably rich and everybody wants something from you. Your brain tells you, I don't have.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (41:03)

The money, so nobody wants anything from me.

Arthur Brooks (41:05)

Everybody wants everything that you've got. No, no, you're right. You're exactly right. And this is a problem that we have and we have to deal with it. And the only way we deal with it is with love and with our relationships and focusing on the things that really matter to everybody all the time. Your faith, your family, your friends, and your work that serves other people.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (41:22)

The great Arthur Brooks. Thank you for coming in.

Joe Kernan (41:24)

Thanks.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (41:25)

New column in the Free Press. Check it out.

Becky Quick (41:28)

And that is Squawkpod for today. Thanks for listening. SquawkBox is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern or follow Squawkpod wherever you get your podcasts. And would you do something for us? Take a second to to rate or write a brief review about Squawk Pod on Apple Podcasts that helps other listeners find us. Have a great day. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow.

Arthur Brooks (41:54)

We are clear.

Andrew Ross Sorkin (41:56)

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