The Saudi Visit, the Epstein Vote & Oz Pearlman the Mentalist 11/18/25

Summary

Squawk Pod Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Saudi Visit, the Epstein Vote & Oz Perlman the Mentalist
Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Joe Kernen, Andrew Ross Sorkin
Notable Guests: Ret. Gen. David Petraeus, Emily Wilkins, Oz Perlman

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Episode Overview

This episode covers three major topics:

• The diplomatic significance of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's (MBS) high-profile visit to the White House and its geopolitical implications.
• The political fallout from the release of new Jeffrey Epstein files, pressuring public figures like Larry Summers to step away from public life.
• A mind-bending segment with mentalist Oz Perlman, who astonishes the hosts with live mental feats.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Saudi Crown Prince’s State Visit to the U.S.

[03:03 – 06:18; 20:24 – 29:20]

Context & Stakes

• MBS's First Visit Since Khashoggi Murder: This is MBS’s first U.S. visit since the 2018 murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Hosts reflect on how the U.S.–Saudi relationship has evolved and on ongoing controversies.
  • Joe Kernen [03:03]: “We used to talk about it all the time. Khashoggi. This is where we are now, full circle.”
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [04:54]: “What is the penalty? Is there… a duration to that penalty box? Are you canceled forever, or… are there different measures for different people for different offenses?”

Policy & Deals

• Anticipated Announcements:
  • Sale of up to 48 Lockheed Martin F35 jets to Saudi Arabia – a move with major regional implications.
  • Potential mutual defense pacts, nuclear cooperation, and discussions on Saudi participation in the Abraham Accords (pending progress on a two-state solution for Palestine).
  • Saudi investments projected at $600 billion in the U.S.
  • Gen. David Petraeus [21:02]: “It’s a very significant visit… there are a lot of deliverables and I think it will be something they’ll definitely celebrate this evening…”

Security and Geopolitical Risks

• Technology Transfer Concerns:
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [22:32]: “There’s some concern… these planes could ultimately either wind up in the hands of the Chinese…”
  • Gen. Petraeus [22:52]: “I think there’s reason to be concerned… The key is… making sure there are safeguards, that there’s no way they can reverse engineer.”

Morality vs. Realpolitik

• Debate over the “half-life” of events like the Khashoggi killing, and the tension between moral outrage and geopolitical necessity.
  • David Petraeus [23:53]: “It’s obviously something that has no half life… But at the end of the day… you face the reality, the world the way it is, not necessarily the way you’d like it to be.”
  • Joe Kernen [24:21]: “In the black and white world of what’s right and what’s wrong, it has no half life. In the gray world of what we deal with, it obviously has a half life.”

Links to Middle East Conflicts

• The meeting’s timing connects to the situation in Gaza and broader regional security:
  • David Petraeus [24:57]: “Unfortunately, Hamas is still the guys with the most guns in Gaza. There is still essentially the government…”

On Russia and Sanctions

• Gen. Petraeus outlines how sanctions could force Russia’s hand in Ukraine, emphasizing support for Ukraine via laundered Russian reserves and increased economic pressure on Russia and its allies.
  • [27:22 – 29:20]

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2. New Epstein Files and the ‘Morality Penalty Box’

[06:31 – 18:43]

Larry Summers & Morality Double Standards

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [06:31]: Breaks news that Larry Summers is stepping back from public life after new Epstein emails are revealed.
• Conversation tackles how different public figures face varying repercussions for moral lapses and controversial associations.
  • Joe Kernen [05:21]: “There are economic concerns… Countries that do things that there’s no way we’d tolerate… It’s gray.”
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [09:07]: “It feels like… the window around what people think about morality, either care about morality, don’t care about morality. Is it selective to certain people?”

“Penalty Box” and Political Selectivity

• The segment becomes a spirited debate on media and public standards, reflecting on selective outrage. Bill Clinton’s, Trump’s, and other public figures’ Epstein associations are compared.
  • Joe Kernen [10:09]: “Okay, let’s say you got pictures of Trump back in the 90s with Epstein. That problematic for you?”
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [10:19]: “I think it’s not great… But then as I say, you got your other friends like Clinton… jet rides down to the island…”

Reflection on Accountability

• Hosts discuss the impact of new evidence and the problem of judging without all the facts.
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [11:05]: “For whatever reason… there is a shift around selective thinking around questions about morality, about certain people for certain reasons.”

Notable Quote

• Andrew Ross Sorkin [13:08]: “Here we are now debating the morality, effectively, of Khashoggi this morning, right, who’s visiting at the White House… and whether somebody like Larry Summers should be stepping back from public life or not.”

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3. Congressional GOP health care pitch: Health Savings Accounts

[14:25 – 17:22]

Emily Wilkins Explains the Proposal

• GOP senators, led by Bill Cassidy and supported by Trump, propose letting ACA premium tax credits expire, replacing them with prepaid health savings accounts for low-tier plans.
  • Emily Wilkins [14:25]: “Senator Bill Cassidy… is pitching a new plan: basically to let these premium tax credits… expire… and use the savings to provide prepaid health care savings accounts to those who sign up for the lowest tier.”

Policy Analysis and Concerns

• Health policy experts (KFF’s Larry Levitt) caution that many Americans may face less affordable deductibles.
  • Wilkins [16:30]: “If you are someone who has a high medical cost… an HSA is great for the initial chunk, but eventually there is a giant bill…”

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4. Oz Perlman, Wall Street’s Favorite Mentalist

[30:28 – 39:01]

Live Mind-Reading Segment

• Oz Perlman joins the show to promote his new book, impressing the hosts with mind games involving numbers, books, and random selections.
  • Joe Kernan [30:51]: “I love it.”
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [35:20]: “I can’t… I can’t do it anymore.”

Key Moments and Quotes

• Oz Perlman [32:05]: “Here’s where this gets interesting. What if you knew the future?”
• The mentalist correctly identifies both hosts’ random word selections with uncanny precision:
  • Oz Perlman [34:12]: “That was weird. That was weird, right? How does this happen?”
• The segment leaves the hosts speechless and jokingly bewildered:
  • Joe Kernan [36:05]: “Anything short of thinking he might be Satan…”
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [36:46]: “I need more time.”
  • Andrew Ross Sorkin [37:38]: “I have no good explanation for this situation whatsoever. The previous ones were just as mind boggling.”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On MBS’s Visit:
  • “It’s a very significant visit… a lot of deliverables and I think it will be again something… they will definitely celebrate this evening…”
    – Gen. Petraeus [21:02]
• On Khashoggi's Murder and Diplomacy:
  • “It’s always going to be there. But… you face the reality, the world the way it is, not necessarily the way you’d like it to be.”
    – Gen. Petraeus [23:53]
• On Morality Standards:
  • “It feels like… the window around what people think about morality… Is it selective to certain people?”
    – Andrew Ross Sorkin [09:07]
• On Policy & Health Savings Accounts:
  • “If you are someone who has a high medical cost… there is a giant bill that is coming.”
    – Emily Wilkins [16:30]
• On Mind-Reading Magic:
  • “I can’t… I can’t do it anymore.”
    – Andrew Ross Sorkin [35:20]
  • “Anything short of thinking he might be Satan… I mean, you’re like, I can’t even.”
    – Joe Kernan [36:05]

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Key Timestamps

• [03:03] – MBS Visit overview and U.S.–Saudi relations
• [06:31] – Larry Summers, Epstein files, and selective moral judgment
• [14:25] – GOP’s new health care proposal (Wilkins)
• [20:24] – Gen. Petraeus on the visit’s stakes and Middle East security
• [24:57] – Status of Gaza, Hamas, and U.S. policy
• [27:22] – Russia sanctions and potential for ending Ukraine conflict
• [30:28] – Oz Perlman’s segment: mind reading and magic with the hosts

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Memorable Moments

• The lively debate on whether public “penalty boxes” for moral lapses should have an expiration, or whether selectivity is inevitable in politics and the media.
• Gen. Petraeus offers a rare comprehensive preview of the likely outcomes of the Trump-MBS summit, connecting global diplomacy to military balance and regional stability.
• Oz Perlman’s mental tricks leave the anchors—and listeners—thoroughly flabbergasted, prompting laughter, disbelief, and some tongue-in-cheek speculation about supernatural powers.

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Episode Tone and Style

• Tone: Spirited, candid, at times combative but always with a sense of humor and mutual respect.
• Language: Candid, sometimes irreverent, generally conversational with room for both deep analysis and lighthearted banter.
• Highlights: Heated debate, major news analysis, and comedic marvel at Oz Perlman’s illusions.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode provided a sweeping overview of the day’s biggest news: a historic, controversial U.S.–Saudi summit with game-changing international implications; the messy reality of how public figures face scandals in the Epstein era; a preview of coming health care battles; and some much-needed levity in the form of breathtaking mind-reading from an expert mentalist. Whether you’re tuning in for deep geopolitics or a bit of magic, it’s Squawk at its liveliest.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Commercial Announcer]

And now a next level moment from AT&T business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease. So the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. ATT 5G requires a compatible plan and device. Coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network Network.

[David Petraeus]

Bring in show music please.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod, a return to Washington by Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

[Joe Kernan]

We used to talk about it all the time. Khashoggi. This is where we are now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Full circle.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Retired four star general David Petraeus on the diplomatic stakes.

[David Petraeus]

It's a very significant visit. There are a lot of deliverables and I think it will be again something that they will definitely celebrate this evening properly.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The complicated web of connections to the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein puts political pressure on the president.

[Joe Kernan]

There's no allegations of any wrongdoing yet. Maybe there's something in these files that.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Haven'T come out and causes a former treasury secretary to step back from public life.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There's not an allegation. There's emails that are more than unattractive.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Our Emily Wilkins on Congressional Republicans new pitch to lower health care costs.

[Emily Wilkins]

If you are someone who has a high medical cost, you know, a health savings account, it's great for the initial chunk but eventually there is a giant bill that is coming.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Plus, Wall Street's favorite mentalist Oz Perlman reads our minds.

[Oz Perlman]

When I go 1, 2 and 3, say the letter you picked. 1, 2, 3, G. No, that was.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Weird and the results are stunning.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I can't, I can't do it anymore.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It's Tuesday, November 18, 2025. Squawk Pod begins right now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand and by in 3, 2, 1. Q. ANDERS Good morning. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC. We're live @ the NASDAQ markets head in Times Square. I'm Andra sorkin along with Joe Kernan. Becky is off today. The U.S. department of Labor's website appears to have been updated overnight, revealing jobless claims data that has been delayed by the government shutdown. It says initial jobless claims totaled 3,232,000 in the week ended October 18th. Continuing claims came in at 1.96 million, up slightly from 1.95 million in the prior week.

[Joe Kernan]

Joe, it's been a while. We talk about all the time. Khashoggi this is where we are now, full circle. President Trump's going to meet with Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to date in Washington, D.C. leaders are expected to talk about strengthening defense, trade and technology ties, as well as AI and nuclear energy. Ahead of the meeting, the president said he planned to approve the sale of Lockheed Martin's F35 fighter jets to Saudi Arabia, and that could potentially alter the military balance in the Middle East. The U.S. saudi Investment Forum is scheduled for tomorrow. Punchbowl's Jake Sherman says a dinner that President Trump is holding for the crown prince is expected to include Tiger woods and Elon Musk, among other guests. Couple of, I don't know what the relationship is there. One's a gazillionaire and a genius. The other one is the greatest, one of the greatest golfers of all time, but who I believe is dating one of President Trump's son's ex wives. So it's all very strange. And they're all friends and they have dinner and I don't, this is, I don't know if, I don't know if I'm current on that, but that was happening. This is bin Salman's first visit to the US since 2018, when Saudi agents killed Jamal Khashoggi, the journalist in a Saudi consulate in Turkey. And you know, you see stuff, people get up in arms on Twitter. Obviously, there's still some hangover from all the way back to September 11th. So many of the hijackers were, I mean, we have a long, complex history with Saudi Arabia.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We've long talked about sort of app. So since 2018, what is the penalty? Is there a, do you think about it in the context of a penalty box?

[Joe Kernan]

Kind of, don't you?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, and is there a duration to that penalty box? Are you, we're going to talk about Larry Summers in just a moment. Are you canceled forever? Are you what is, what is the, what is the appropriate thing? And are there different measures for different people for different offenses?

[Joe Kernan]

Because there are economic concerns? We deal. We've actually in the past when we've talked about this, I. I've said things are gray. You are more black and white about a lot of things. And there are countries that do things that there's no way we understand or would ever tolerate, things like that. And a lot, you know, not just in the Middle East, China, Russia.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh, by the way, I don't think.

[Joe Kernan]

But if you're the king of a country, there was a time when kings could do whatever the hell they want. I think when they killed this guy, they didn't even think that they were. You know, look at what Putin does in terms of his enemies. I mean, there are things that happen. We can't be right and we don't. We can't be them. Not for a while. Apparently we do, because here they are.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm saying we don't do business with Russia.

[Joe Kernan]

No, but. Well, we would. We would if economic things.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And if you're saying this is the great complication.

[Joe Kernan]

It is. But. But you're right about the penalty box. You know, if you misgender someone, I think you can be in a penalty box forever. That's. There's no coming back from that. But these other things, you know, murdering someone is much less.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, let me ask you about this, then. All right, so. Former Treasury Secretary and Harvard President Larry Summers saying he's going to quote, step back from public commitments as follows. The release of emails that show that he kept up a friendly relationship with the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein after Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting prostitution from an underage girl in 2008. It also follows President Trump's ordering the Justice Department to investigate Summers and other prominent Democrats ties to Epstein. In a statement obtained by cnbc, Summers said, I am deeply ashamed of my actions and recognize the pain they have caused. I take full responsibility for my misguided decision to continue communicating with Mr. Epstein. Summer says he will continue to teach. He's also, we should mention, a board member at OpenAI. We don't know whether that designation is going to change or not. And here we are. We talk about, you know, moral lapses. Moral, maybe worse than that, depending on how you think about it. We haven't really talked about President Trump in regard to the Epstein files or. By the way, it's interesting to me, though, that here we have Larry Summers voluntarily stepping back from public life effectively on his own.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, his stuff was way after 2005 when Trump threw him out of Mar A Lago and alerted the FBI, apparently, to things that were happening.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I understand that.

[Joe Kernan]

I mean, there are a Lot of. And people, you know, I'm not here.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

To defend Larry Summers. No.

[Joe Kernan]

But some of the names that we're talking about, this was like after 2008, even. There were parties with Stefan. I mean, the names that were at parties. Well, after people should have known what was going on. That's why, you know, it's easy to cherry pick and select things. I don't know. You know, with Trump, you want to, you want to go there, but I don't know.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think he's saying that what's. So, I don't know.

[Joe Kernan]

You know what? Neither one of us.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, but here's the. Look, the question is, in this environment, I would say prior to President Trump, really, I mean, thinking about the Carroll lawsuit and everything else, right. He, he, There was a lawsuit against, against this current president that involved allegations of rape. That's, that's what that case was. And he is now the president.

[Joe Kernan]

He wasn't found guilty of rape. Obviously.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I said those were the allegations. Right. And you heard what the, what the court effectively said about, about all of that ultimately.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, that was the judge.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The judge. A judge, yes.

[Joe Kernan]

You know what my feelings are.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I know you have different feelings than what the judge's feelings are. What I'm saying is it feels like the, the window around what people think about morality, either care about morality, don't care about morality. Is it selective to certain people? We're willing to.

[Joe Kernan]

The left is making it selective to certain people, making it almost solely to Trump when you're probably hearing more from people. Virginia, I don't think it's. But there's no allegations of any wrongdoing yet. Maybe there's something in these files that haven't come out, but there's no allegations. And you're making that leap to it long before you're really able to.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And, and my only point is, and we have no idea what Larry Summers full engagement is with Jeffrey Epstein, but there's not an allegation. There's. There's emails that are, that are more than unattractive, it seems. I don't know enough about it.

[Joe Kernan]

I don't either. What year are we talking about? We're talking about much way after 2000.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

All I'm suggesting is that sort of.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay, let's say you're back in the, let's say you're back and you got pictures of Trump back in the 90s with Epstein. That problematic for you?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think it's not great.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, it's not great for anyone. It's not great for anyone. But then as I say, you got your other friends like Clinton. How many jet rides well after the 90s down to the island.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, we'll see. And that's, that's what we don't know. And this. And then the question, don't look at it.

[Joe Kernan]

And then the question, the left looks.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

At it selectively and you don't think that the right looks at.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, we'll see what's in there now that if it does come out and we are in no position to know anything about any of that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But I will say to cast stones. I remember. No, but I mean, there was the. Grab them by the, you know what line. There was there, There was obviously this, this allegation of rape case.

[Joe Kernan]

Now you're getting this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, no, you can't.

[Joe Kernan]

So this is going to be. So going back to. This is what you're going to be to go after Trump at this point. This is your, this is your cudgel.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's not a cudgel. What I'm suggesting is there is a, for whatever reason, and I'm trying to understand it, you talk about selective sort of context around different individuals. And what I'm saying is there is clearly a shift around selective thinking around questions about morality, about certain people for certain reasons.

[Joe Kernan]

I mean, no one's saying any of our leaders are morally perfect. And once again, you can go back, you know, take your pick of who you're talking about there. But I mean, how long did we, did we pander in the Russia hoax? I mean, anything to try and get this guy from the left. It's almost. So now this is the latest little.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The Russia hoax thing, by the way, Marco Rubio ran an investigation himself, who's now the treasury, who's now the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio into. If you go back and read the Russia, the quote, unquote Russia hoax you're talking about, and Marco Rubio was the person who did.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay, fine. I don't know what that has to do with Abel.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But I'm just saying that when we know that somehow a political, political argument it was at the time, it was being led by the guy who's now the Secretary of state.

[Joe Kernan]

The hate.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It doesn't matter.

[Joe Kernan]

Why does it matter that who he was. There was nothing there, Andrew. And the left, you would have thought there was Pulitzer Prizes were handed out for that. There was nothing. He was not a Russian agent from Putin. That was all conjured up by the prior administration and by Hillary Clinton.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I'm saying that a lot of those stories were written based on information. I mean, now that we're really getting into the past, based on you've gone over now, you've gone, that involved Rufio.

[Joe Kernan]

You'Ve gone on the pink hats, you have thrown in E. Jean Carroll, you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Here, we're having conversation about, you know.

[Joe Kernan]

It'S all been litigated. And 77 million people voted for him, not you, but 77 million people did.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, and that's the, but that's the.

[Joe Kernan]

Point that we got a horrible country that has no morality.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That the question is. So here we are now debating the morality effectively of Khashoggi this morning, right, who's visiting at the White House. And we're having a. Khashoggi's dead, you mean, sorry, mbs. And we're having a debate or a conversation about whether somebody like Larry Summers should be stepping back from public life or not. That is the question. And I'm saying, given this sort of context, what do you think about that? Now?

[Joe Kernan]

You think Trump should step back from public life because Larry Summers is setting some type of example?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm just suggesting to you that there is a, there is a wide aperture here that people are using in terms of how they want to think about different people for different reasons.

[Joe Kernan]

Each of those individuals know exactly what went on. And, you know, I don't, I don't either. So I wouldn't deign to know. If Summers feels like he's in a position where he stepped back, he ought to step back. He's deeply ashamed. So I don't know what's in there. I don't know what happened either. I don't know if he's at the island. I don't know. I don't know anything. Republican senators are floating a health care plan that has the backing of President Trump. Emily Wilkins joins us now with more. Good morning.

[Emily Wilkins]

Good morning, Joe. Yeah, Senators, you know, right now they're racing to find a solution to keep health care costs low, giving that coming expiration of those premium tax credits credits at the end of the year. Republicans are warning that just a simple extension of those credits is not going to be able to pass both chambers. So now we've got Senator Bill Cassidy. He chairs the Senate committee overseeing health care, and he's pitching a new plan basically to let these premium tax credits go ahead and expire at the end of the year and then use the savings to provide prepaid health care savings account to those who sign up for the lowest tier of plans on the Affordable Care act marketplace. Now, as you mentioned, Trump himself endorsed spending the funds directly, not rather on the tax credits, but giving that funding to Americans. But the idea has raised concerns among some health policy experts. The Kaiser Family Foundation's health care expert, Larry Levitt, tweeted that without the enhanced ACA premium tax credits, people would have a harder time buying plans with affordable deductibles. But he then went on to add that he does not believe that this plan from any tag Senator Bill Cassidy would cause a premium death spiral in the same way as other health account proposals that have been floated. Now, you remember Senate Majority Leader John Thune? He promised Democrats a vote on the bill of their choosing in mid December, meaning that lawmakers are under the gun to find something that can pass both chambers. Otherwise, you're going to see those premium credits expire and have no alternative there, guys.

[Joe Kernan]

The health savings account. Hearing that from a lot of different sectors at this point, Emily, we had, we had the other day a long discussion about that with here. A lot of people have talked about that being something that might make sense. It's been years. I don't know why we haven't tried it up to this point. Bertinelli was on Mark, is that his name? Bertolini. Bertolini, yeah. Bertolini was on talking about that as an answer of Oscar Health. I don't know if you saw any of that interview that day, Emily.

[Emily Wilkins]

Well, I know, at least from the discussions that I've heard up on Capitol Hill, yes, there's definitely an openness to the idea of these health savings accounts. I think at the same point, some of the other concerns that I've also heard is that if you are someone who has a high medical cost, if you're dealing with a really devastating illness and you are racking up those hospital bills, you know, a health savings account, it's great for the initial chunk, but eventually there is a giant bill that is coming. And I think for certain folks who want to see a higher premium than than the bronze plan, you want to get something that maybe has more coverage. You wouldn't necessarily get the hsa. And I should note that that Cassidy has asterisk this with this is something he's still discussing with folks. You know, they have only a couple weeks to come up with a proposal. So he's still kind of trying to workshop it as he's putting it out. But it is just notable, of course, given that they are going to have to figure this out before a vote in just a few weeks.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah. All right, Emily, appreciate that. Thank you. Just looking at this Andrew Summers emails with Epstein were 2018 and 2019 asking for advice on pursuing a romantic relationship. And that was 10 years after Epstein had pleaded guilty to all those charges in 2008. So I don't know if it's an apples to apples or not. When the relationship ended in 2005 with.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You'Re talking about Trump, talking about Trump.

[Joe Kernan]

You know, comparing morality, I think, I think Larry has a lot to answer for.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot to answer for. And by the way, it's not coming from the Democrats. It's Republicans who are.

[Joe Kernan]

Steve Bannon is not. Don't Steve Bannon or Marjorie Taylor, Tucker Carlson. I can't believe that these people are on Democrats lips now. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Steve Bannon, those are the people.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And Tucker Carlson, the people who supported this president, been the most vocal supporters of the president. Okay. Right. That's where it's coming from. It's not. It's not.

[Joe Kernan]

I just would have never believed that MTG would be mentioned so frequently by the left. It's just, it's like come full circle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm just suggesting that's where it's, that's, it's, it's the party that supported this president who's making, who's calling for all of this. Okay, that's where it started.

[David Petraeus]

Tease will be next.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Coming up on Squawk Pod, a high stakes meeting at the White House today with President Trump and Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Salman, retired general and former CIA Director David Petraeus on the changing politics in the Middle East.

[David Petraeus]

Unfortunately, Hamas is still the guys with the most guns in Gaza. They're still essentially the government.

[Commercial Announcer]

And now a next level moment from AT&T business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease. So the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. ATT 5G requires a compatible plan and device. Coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This is Squawk Pod up and Andrew Q. You're watching SquawkBox on CNBC. I'm Andrew Ossorkin along with Joe Kernan. Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is scheduled to visit the White House today, his first since the 2018 killing of journalist and Saudi critic Jamal Khashoggi. For a look at what's at stake, want to bring in retired four star Army General David Petraeus, chairman of the KKR Global Institute and the KKR Middle East Global Institute. He was, of course, the CIA director during the Obama administration. Good morning to you.

[David Petraeus]

Good to see you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

When this whole meeting is over, General, what do you think we're going to ultimately hear? What kind of deals do you think can ultimately be struck?

[David Petraeus]

Well, first of all, President Trump is really approaching this as a state visit, that of a head of state, even though the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is the prime minister, head of government. But that's a significant distinction. There will be an elaborate military arrival ceremony, Oval Office meeting, and then a black tie dinner for 125 or so people this evening. And this evening I think they'll be celebrating an announcement of US sale of up to 48 F35 stealth fighter bombers, which proved to be so effective, of course, in the hands of the Israelis and US forces in the 12 Day War against Iran. There will likely be the signing of a mutual defense pact, something like what President Trump did for Qatar after the Israeli strike on the Hamas leaders there, discussion of the Saudis joining the Abraham Accords, although I think that's still premature because the Crown Prince will explain that there will have to be an ironclad path to Palestinian two state solution. There will also be undoubtedly reaffirmation, if you will, or details on the 600 billions of dollars that the Crown Prince announced would be spent in the US by the Saudis in a variety of different endeavors and likely a civil nuclear agreement of some type to help the Saudis. So it's a very significant visit. There are a lot of deliverables and I think it will be again something that they will definitely celebrate this evening properly.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What is your take on the F35 sales? You know, there's some concern, more than some concern. A report inside the Pentagon suggesting it could be a problem that these planes could ultimately either wind up in the hands of the Chinese or given the partnership between the Chinese and Saudi, that it presents a problem and something that we should be concerned about.

[David Petraeus]

Well, I think there's reason to be concerned about that and I think there are also mitigating steps that can be taken to assure that that doesn't happen. This will, though, be the first sale of F35s outside of Israel. When it comes to the Middle east, you can then expect probably the Emiratis and others may seek similar sales in the future. And the key is again, just making sure that there are safeguards that there's no way that they can reverse engineer if it gets in their hands or something like that, which I don't expect to happen. I suspect we'll have a lot of advisors around this. There will probably be discussion as well of other modernization of the Saudi military, including maintenance and training agreements also.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I doubt it's going to come up in conversation. But you know, here we are talking about MBS coming to the US For a visit like this, the first since, and we keep saying since 2018 when he's alleged to have ordered the killing of Khashoggi. How should we think about that in this context?

[David Petraeus]

Well, it's obviously something that has no half life, if you will. It's always going to be there. But at the end of the day, a previous president, and now this president decided that we need to move on. You face the reality, the world the way it is, not necessarily the way you'd like it to be.

[Joe Kernan]

That is a half life, General, that it does have a half life.

[David Petraeus]

Well, it obviously gets a bit more dim and dim in the rearview mirror as time goes.

[Joe Kernan]

Right. I think you're arguing, I see what you're saying, but you're kind of making the case for both that in our mind, in the black and white world of what's right and what's wrong, it has no half life. In the gray world of what we deal with, it obviously has a half life.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Sure.

[Joe Kernan]

Yep. Right. I think I understand. But yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

General, when you think about the relationship between Saudi and the US and actually now let's play this out into what you think is going on in Israel right now. Do you think that there's going to be a broader deal that's going to come out of this?

[David Petraeus]

There will probably be discussions about the way forward in Gaza. And of course, it's worth noting that the UN Security Council yesterday approved President Trump's plan for the way forward in Gaza. The challenge is the reality that there still has not been a mechanism described, designed, and so forth to disarm Hamas. That's the second phase of this agreement. President Trump deserves credit for the first phase which got the exchange of the hostages from Hamas, live hostages, all to Israel. Gradually, the bodies of those who died in captivity are also making their way, and it's an exchange for thousands of Palestinian detainees in return. The question is, how do you move forward? Now, Unfortunately, Hamas is still the guys with the most guns in Gaza. There is still essentially the government, and there really is not a separation of the people from the extremists in this case, which is what you would have wanted to see in this campaign. Look, Israel was brilliant against Hezbollah, brilliant against Iran, set the conditions that enabled Ahmed Al Shar to topple the murderous Bashar al Assad regime in Syria. But the situation in Gaza is still at a bit of an impasse because there has been a clear and leave approach rather than a clear hold, build. And whether there can be a force found somewhere in the world that's willing to go in there and fight Hamas and its hundreds of miles of underground infrastructure and take them on and clear them out, disarm them forcefully if they will not disarm voluntarily. That is a big question right now. I'm sure they'll talk about reconstruction, but again, it's very hard to do reconstruction if you haven't actually separated, again, the people from the extremists in this case.

[Joe Kernan]

In general, while we have you here, Putin, we've got sanctions, we've toughened up sanctions. Are there any. Is there anything economically that, that will actually force him to make concessions or stand down? Or do you just think he's just dead set on, on, I don't know, reconstituting Mother Russia or the Soviet Union or something, is anything ever going to work? Does he care if the economy goes to zero? Does he care what happens to Russia in that case?

[David Petraeus]

I think. I think there is a way forward. I think that if the EU in its mid December meeting, can finally agree on how to essentially launder, how to take these frozen Russian reserves that are anywhere from 150 billion to $250 billion, that is equivalent, depending on who you talk to and which country they're in. If you can launder that through Euroclear bonds that you give to Ukraine, it would be an extraordinary shot in the arm for Ukraine. That's first to help Ukraine and we should take other actions to help them defend better in the air against missiles and drones and so forth also. But then if you put further sanctions on the Russian economy and now you're starting to see this, the 19th EU round is approved a few weeks ago. The US has been sanctioning Rosneft and Luke oil to the big oil companies and then a number of other companies in recent days. And then you go after those who enable the Russian economy. You go after those who are buying the gas and oil, do it in a thoughtful manner so you don't spike the oil market. That's doable. We did it back during the sanctions on Iran that led to the ultimate nuclear deal. And you go after frankly China, which is providing the vast quantity of chips and other components for the Russian military industrial complex, noting that they are going to run out of the national welfare fund. The Russians are next year according to the Ukraine intelligence. So I think there is an opportunity to enable Ukraine to do better on the ground against the Russians in the air and then above all to crush the Russian war economy and those who enable it, those who buy and those who sell to Russia. And I think that could lead to a situation where Putin says, you know, I actually can't continue this war. He's now taken somewhere around 1.15 million killed and wounded. And I think there, there could be a moment if you do all of this together. And I think the opportunity is there at this point, point in time.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

General, want to thank you for joining us this morning, helping us through this and we look forward to talking to you again very, very soon.

[David Petraeus]

Always good to talk to you and great interview with David Remnick in the New York in recent weeks.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh thank you. Appreciate that, thanks.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Next on Squawk Pod. Stunned into silence.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't know what to say anymore.

[Joe Kernan]

I didn't want him to come in.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Today Joe and Andrew have a session with mentalist and magician Oz Perlman when Squawkpod returns. Did you know you can opt out of winter with VRBO? Save up to $1,500 for booking a month long stay with thousands of sunny homes. Why subject yourself to the cold? Just filter your search by monthly stays and save up to $1,500. Book now at vrbo.com@capella university. Learning the right skills could make a difference. That's why our business programs teach you relevant skills you can take from the course room to the workplace. A different Future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu. You're listening to Squawk Pod from cnbc. Here's Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Our next guest is a regular on Squawk here and now the author of a new book. It is called Read. You'd mind. He's done it to us a whole bunch of times and, boy, he's about to do it again. Mentalist Oz Perlman is here. Former Wall Streeter himself.

[Oz Perlman]

Former Wall Street.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

How many years have you.

[Oz Perlman]

Lynch.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

How many years you've been coming on the show? Do you know?

[Oz Perlman]

I think we're going on a decade.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think we're going on a decade.

[Oz Perlman]

We haven't aged a day. Neither of you.

[Joe Kernan]

I love it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

[Oz Perlman]

I did Looking good.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

John, You've got a new book out.

[Oz Perlman]

You and me both. Can we give a quick shout out to Viking? We both have stock stuff for us.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's true. There you go.

[Oz Perlman]

And you know what's interesting? Our books are kind of different, but kind of the same. Mine is all about practical advice, actionable takeaways to achieve success. I am not going to teach you to be a mentalist. But yours is kind of looking into the past.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

To avoid financial disaster.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

Which I didn't know. But October 24, 1929. Black Thursday.

[David Petraeus]

That is true.

[Oz Perlman]

What if you had known that date before it had happened? Right. This whole show is. What if you could know the future?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Jesse Livermore and shorted the market and done spectacularly.

[Oz Perlman]

Right. But how do you see what's going to happen? I like to say we throw out a date. We go into the future. Gentlemen. Month, day and year. That has no meaning in the next decade. Month, day and year. What year? Give me the year. What do you got?

[David Petraeus]

The one that.

[Oz Perlman]

Yes.

[Joe Kernan]

2027.

[Oz Perlman]

2027. You see it? Is there a reason you picked it or no? Month and a day.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm going July 6th.

[Oz Perlman]

July 6th, 2027. What do you think is going to happen on that day? I'm writing it down. 706.

[Joe Kernan]

The market will open and the market will close.

[Oz Perlman]

Seven hundred and six.

[Joe Kernan]

I agree with you.

[Oz Perlman]

706. 27. Here's what I think. This is the wild part about this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I wonder if it could be a weekend or. How could be a weekend?

[Oz Perlman]

I didn't look it up yet. 27-7-6. You made it up. Here's where this gets interesting. What if you knew the future? Right. What if you could figure it out each of you grab a book. You get your own book.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay, I get your book.

[Oz Perlman]

You get my book. I'm giving it to you. I'll sign it later. You better sign that one for me. Flip through the pages.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yep.

[Oz Perlman]

And I want you. Because here's what I think. The way that a 1929 event happens is when everyone's brain is synced up. Everyone loses confidence in the market. At the same time, everyone sells. No one buys. As you're flipping through, hold it a little closer because it doesn't matter to me. But I don't want you to see each other's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay.

[Oz Perlman]

His book has more pages than mine.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

One page. I always say it's calling out your name. Go to yours in your book. Go to yours in your book. Find it and bring it close to your body. I like how Andrew just started reading his book. He goes, this is a great chapter right here.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, I really like that one.

[Oz Perlman]

Now, I always say the first and the last thing you do is what people remember. The first and the last. You'll go first on your page. Look at the first word right now. Joe, look at the first word on the page.

[David Petraeus]

Bam.

[Oz Perlman]

And then close the book tight. You did it. Look at the last word on your page.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yep, I got.

[Oz Perlman]

Close the book. Here's where it gets wild. Each of you see your word in front of you. You could have gone any word, any page, period. In your book. In my book, I want you to just grab out a letter. Just grab a letter out of your word right in the middle. Just grab the letter out. You got one letter in a letter.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

In the middle of the word.

[Oz Perlman]

Middle, middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay?

[Oz Perlman]

Because you did first and last. So now middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay?

[Oz Perlman]

Look at me. Look at each other. This is where people's brains get aligned. I don't think you did a vowel, did you? I don't think you did a vowel either. Did you?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No.

[Oz Perlman]

See, Isn't that weird? Not that weird. On three. One, two, and. When I say three and point at you, I want you to just say the letter, not the whole word. But When I go 1, 2, and 3, say the letter you picked. 1, 2, 3.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

G. No.

[Oz Perlman]

That was weird. That was weird, right? How does this happen? 1929, when everyone starts thinking like gentlemen, each of you grab a pad of paper and a marker. There is no collusion. You could have picked any random page. You could have picked any random page, any word. Grab it. There's no chance on this. Hold it close to your body. Gentlemen, I'm going to close my eyes. Close to Your body. Turn it sideways. Landscape.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Landscape.

[Oz Perlman]

And I do not want to see what words you're writing.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay.

[Oz Perlman]

And I want you each to write your word as big as you can, please, and hold it close to your body so you cannot see each other's. And definitely I can't either.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm writing the word.

[Oz Perlman]

Your word.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The one with the G in the middle.

[Oz Perlman]

Whatever you picked out of the whole book.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

[Oz Perlman]

Hold it close to each other.

[Joe Kernan]

Hold closer to my body.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yep.

[Oz Perlman]

Ready?

[Joe Kernan]

Yep.

[Oz Perlman]

Can we get three shots? We can get all of us in the same time. On three. One, two. And when I say three and point at you, I want you to turn your words around. One, two. And think about this. You picked any page. You picked any page. You picked any word. Both of you did this. Three. Turn around. Legal. Legal. Is that correct? Legal. Legal.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I can't. I can't do it anymore.

[Joe Kernan]

I know I'm going back in time, trying to think of how.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Every time.

[Oz Perlman]

But, Joe, don't go back in time. Go forward in time. Because 1929, your book turned the world upside down financially. Is that right? You each gave me any day, any month, any year, just on the spot. I'm about to turn your world upside down. Because when you turn this upside down, the word that I'm seeing.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't know what to say anymore.

[Joe Kernan]

I didn't want him to come in today.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I almost expect it now.

[Joe Kernan]

I know. I do, too.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But it's.

[Joe Kernan]

Anything short of thinking he might be Satan is. I mean, you're like, I can't even.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There's just no way there's a logical.

[Joe Kernan]

Explanation, is there not? Either that or I'm not ever going near a Ouija board. Pick it up.

[Oz Perlman]

Pick it up.

[Joe Kernan]

Right there. No, I'm not doing anything else.

[Oz Perlman]

There it is. Pick it up. Buy the book.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm not doing anything else.

[Oz Perlman]

You said it yourself, Joe. Buy the book.

[Joe Kernan]

What do you want me to do?

[Oz Perlman]

Learn my secret to success?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Buy the book. Buy the book.

[Joe Kernan]

I got the book. He's going to sign it for me.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Wow.

[Oz Perlman]

Thank you, Squawk Box.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I can't really even.

[Joe Kernan]

Did you do the thing with the calculator?

[Oz Perlman]

I mean.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, I'm just trying to think of what. I have no idea how you.

[Oz Perlman]

This is your book.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I know your book. You should know that people ask me about the Lego thing with Joe constantly.

[Oz Perlman]

Constantly.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That is the singular one that I get asked about because it was Sam Altman and Sam Altman go karting.

[Joe Kernan]

Go karting.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So he was asking me before the show began. Whether you like go on our social media.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernan]

Whether you have access.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But that wouldn't, that would, that wouldn't explain.

[Joe Kernan]

I picked it out of all the.

[Oz Perlman]

Joe likes on his social media. Did not give me any advantage right here.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Unfortunately.

[Joe Kernan]

No, but when you said pick any.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He needs a lawyer.

[Joe Kernan]

Exactly. Pick any picture. Whether it came up legal. Pick any picture. And I picked Mark Twain. I don't even know why. But I did save it on my phone and there's no reason to think I would have picked Mark Twain. And you got Mark Twain. So I thought you were looking in, in my phone.

[Oz Perlman]

Can't look in your phone. How can we look? This is your book. My book. Any page, any word.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah. This had nothing to do with.

[Oz Perlman]

Guys.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thank you, sir. Yeah, I, I thank you. Thank you. I, I mean it's under silence, folks.

[Joe Kernan]

And there was no way because the middle word, there were two on each side. It could have been a, an eight letter word which wouldn't have had a middle freaking letter, would it?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Right. There's no way. That was Perlman. Thank you.

[Oz Perlman]

Thanks guys.

[Joe Kernan]

Don't you just suspend disbelief at this point. I just, I'm ready for anything. I don't. But I can't explain it. Can you explain anything Sorkin for that? Can you explain anything or you just accept everything?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I, I can't. I have no good explanation for this situation whatsoever. The previous ones were just as mind boggling.

[Joe Kernan]

I mean I'm thinking, does he, Are we hypnotized?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No.

[Joe Kernan]

How does he get. How did I, how did you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

How did we both pick the same word?

[Joe Kernan]

So I had, he had the 10 years in the next decade in cards.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But then he, but he had only one of them.

[Joe Kernan]

Upside down is a word and I could have picked any. Anyone I know, 20, 28, you can't.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You get.

[Joe Kernan]

That's not a word upside down.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I need to think about it.

[Joe Kernan]

It's not going to help.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I need more time.

[Joe Kernan]

Not staying away from all Ouija boards. That's what I'm doing. Cuz now I'm just, I'm just scared future. But I'm also hopeful that maybe there's an afterlife. I don't know.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And that is the magical and mental pod for today. Thanks for listening. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern. And to get the smartest takes and analysis from our TV show right into your ears, please follow Squawkpod wherever you get your podcasts. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow.

[David Petraeus]

We are clear.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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