What’s Next for Taiwan? And Dr. Oz on Entitlements & Transplants 5/15/26

Summary

Squawk Pod – May 15, 2026: "What’s Next for Taiwan? And Dr. Oz on Entitlements & Transplants"

Episode Overview

This episode of Squawk Pod dives into the aftermath of President Trump's visit to China, focusing on fraught U.S.–China relations regarding Taiwan, chip technology, and Iran. The latter half highlights an interview with Dr. Mehmet Oz, now CMS Administrator, discussing Medicare and Medicaid fraud, overhauls in prior authorization, and his career as a heart surgeon—including a moving conversation with famed investment banker and transplant recipient Roger Altman.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. U.S.–China Summit: Aftermath and Taiwan Tensions (03:36–14:00; 41:00–55:07)

The Mood in Beijing:

• President Trump departs China after meeting with President Xi; few specifics or deals announced, but highly charged rhetoric around Taiwan.
  • Joe Kernan: “This Taiwan stuff is...it really does...reading it sort of sends a chill up my spine...It was throwing down the gauntlet…In a way that almost says the United States has enjoyed not making the decision on this. The strategic ambiguity. We're going to force you to make a decision on this.” (02:25–03:36)

Strategic Ambiguity and Increased Pressure:

• Andrew Ross Sorkin: “That was a bellicose moment from President Xi Jinping going right at President Trump on the issue of Taiwan.” (01:03–01:10; 03:45)
• The U.S. continues “strategic ambiguity” on whether it would defend Taiwan militarily, despite President Xi’s direct questioning of President Trump.
• Andrew Ross Sorkin: “It’s striking that Xi Jinping would ask him directly whether the United States would defend Taiwan.” (43:57)
• President Trump: “There’s only one person that knows...Me...That question was asked to me today by President Xi. I said I don't talk about that.” (40:43)

U.S.–China Tech Competition

• Much speculation on whether trade deals or chip sales (notably Nvidia’s H200s) were discussed or agreed. Both countries remain defensive, with China hesitant to buy U.S. chips, doubling down on domestic manufacturing.
  • Jameson Greer (US Trade Representative, via paraphrased reporting): Purchases of Nvidia chips are a “sovereign decision by China;” no deal on chips at this summit. (06:02)

The Military Calculus and Global Stakes:

• Panelists discuss the “Thucydides Trap” and how historical power transitions can lead to conflict.
  • Joe Kernan: “A rising power to challenge the...established power says or does something that eventually ends up causing a conflict in their quest to eventually eclipse the established power.” (06:57)
• Concern over U.S. military munitions stretched thin in Iran, and the possibility of a “slow, choking naval blockade” of Taiwan by China.

Market Response:

• No deal news results in a significant selloff, especially on the NASDAQ.

Chinese and U.S. Readouts:

• Chinese state press omits any mention of the Taiwan exchange.
  • Eunice Yoon: “No mention of President Trump's comments about Taiwan, which is a signal that the Chinese were not happy.” (01:13; 48:17)
• Eunice Yoon: Highlights “a constructive, new U.S.–China strategic stability” but no specifics in deals or agreements, while Putin prepares to visit Xi. (48:17)

Memorable Quotes:

• President Trump: “We’ve made some fantastic trade deals, great for both countries. He’s a man I respect greatly...the relationship is a very strong one.” (05:35)
• Andrew Ross Sorkin: “The last thing we need is another war 9,000 miles away.” (45:08, paraphrasing Trump)

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2. Dr. Mehmet Oz on Medicare Fraud, Prior Authorization Reform, and Medical Ethics (15:52–38:38)

Streamlining Prior Authorization

• Dr. Oz leads a coalition of 29 healthcare companies to simplify the bureaucratic process for medical procedure approval.
  • Dr. Oz: “It is the single issue that angers patients more than anything…then the long arm of insurance reaches in, says, hold on a second, Joe...and it takes six weeks.” (17:00)
• New digital solutions to “axe the fax” and reduce unnecessary paperwork; push for real-time insurance decisions.
  • Dr. Oz: “We want doctors and insurance companies talking with electronic medical record systems directly…when the data doesn't flow, there's friction in the system. People make money when there's friction...We want to axe the fax from now on. It needs to be digital.” (18:30)

Fighting Fraud in Medicare and Medicaid

• Dr. Oz: “We think within the Medicare and Medicaid system, it’s about $100 billion...If we could fix the fraud in Medicare just by itself, we would double the life expectancy of the…program itself.” (21:00)

• Details on fraud “epicenters”:

  • Hospice fraud in Los Angeles: “One third of all the hospices in the entire country are in Los Angeles, not California, just LA.” (21:34)
  • Medicaid personal care services in NYC: “...personal care services, that someone's carrying the groceries upstairs for their parents and they're getting paid for it...The number one job in New York City.” (21:54)
  • Large-scale organized crime, including Russian, Chinese, and Cuban syndicates.

• Dr. Oz: "Are you really interested in taking care of folks who need help...Or is this a jobs program with a political patronage kicker?" (22:20)

Impact and Enforcement

• Payment suspensions in states with major abuse: “We are deferring $1.34 billion just for this last audit, the last quarter audit from California because of that kind of shenanigans.” (26:11)
• Striking a balance: “We don't want to hurt the people in Minnesota. We want to make sure that people are paying attention.” (24:08)

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3. A Personal Story: Roger Altman's Heart Transplant and Dr. Oz's Surgical Legacy (27:18–38:42)

Roger Altman’s Testimonial

• Altman credits Dr. Oz—then a renowned heart surgeon—with saving his life 24 years prior with a heart transplant.
  • Altman: “I owe an unpayable debt to Mehmet. Unpayable debt because I’m probably in the top 10% of survival rates. And…without Mehmet, I wouldn't be here.” (29:47)
• Moving anecdote: Altman agreed to help Dr. Oz with a Davos speech only if Oz agreed to do his transplant, no matter when the organ became available.

Dr. Oz’s Perspective

• “Doing heart surgery was the best job of my life, except for the current job.” (32:11)
• Pushes back against public skepticism: “You don't go around bragging about your patients...We don't talk about...But I’m in the change business. I just love being in a place where we can make a difference.” (32:11, 31:40)
• Highlights the need for organ donors and the miracle of transplantation.

On Medicine, Technology, and the Future

• Andrew Ross Sorkin: “Do you think that robots are going to be doing what you did to him, even five years or 10 years, and do it better?” (36:57)
• Dr. Oz: “A heart transplant, it's a long, long way away for a robot. But...other procedures we do that robots…might be better...But you need a doctor involved. And this is probably the biggest battle we're going to face over the next few years. About two thirds of Americans don't trust AI to be able to be giving them health advice without a doctor involved.” (37:20)

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4. Final Reflections and Notable Exchanges (40:43–55:07)

Strategic Ambiguity and Xi’s Directness

• President Trump maintains not answering Xi’s direct question regarding U.S. defense of Taiwan. Strategic ambiguity continues, but Xi’s choice to ask is significant and “telling.”
• Sorkin notes: “This is the moment, this is the whole game right here for…Xi Jinping. I would ask him. You have to imagine he would ask him. It was also a way of saying, we may do this at some point.” (44:10)

Interpreting the Absence of Deal Announcements

• No movement on tariffs, chip sales, or Iran—business as usual, but world markets react nervously.
• Eunice Yoon: “The more you see [China] act confidently, the more it also underscores a certain vulnerability or an anxiety and paranoia that they have. And so because William Lai has been so forceful...about the potential for Taiwan independence, you're seeing the Chinese feeling that they need to clamp down on that.” (51:19)

Looking Ahead

• Next steps depend on U.S.–China actions, Xi’s ambitions toward Taiwan, and whether this moment signals a coming flashpoint.
• Key date for potential Chinese action on Taiwan floated as 2027—but remains uncertain and tied to domestic economic and political factors. (52:52)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “That was a bellicose moment from President Xi Jinping going right at President Trump on the issue of Taiwan.” —Andrew Ross Sorkin (01:03)
• “If we could fix the fraud in Medicare just by itself, we will double the life expectancy of the…program itself.” —Dr. Mehmet Oz (21:00)
• “I owe an unpayable debt amendment. Unpayable debt because I'm probably in the top 10% of survival rates.” —Roger Altman (01:56; 29:47)
• “Doing heart surgery was… the best job of my life, except for the current job.” —Dr. Mehmet Oz (32:11)
• “The last thing we need is another war 9,000 miles away.” —President Trump, relayed by Andrew Ross Sorkin (45:08)

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:36–14:00| U.S.–China summit analysis on Taiwan, chips, military, and diplomacy | | 15:52–26:33| Dr. Oz on prior authorization and Medicare/Medicaid fraud | | 27:18–38:42| Roger Altman's story, Dr. Oz's surgical ethics, and transplant innovation | | 41:00–55:07| Breaking news: Trump’s Air Force One comments; panel roundtable on Xi/Taiwan | | 48:17–53:47| Eunice Yoon’s reporting from Beijing; China’s public readout and analysis |

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Tone and Style Notes

• The conversation is candid, with typical Squawk Box banter, pointed analysis, and a willingness to probe uncomfortable political and ethical questions.
• The Dr. Oz and Roger Altman segment is particularly heartfelt and personal, bringing a human element to policy discussion.

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Conclusion

This episode dissects the underlying fragility of U.S.–China relations, drills into the strategic stakes around Taiwan, and explores how health policy reform and integrity can have life-and-death consequences. The episode balances geopolitical tension with profound personal testimony, reminding listeners of policy’s real-world stakes.

If you want to understand the tightrope walk in the Taiwan Strait or why Medicare fraud drains public trust and dollars, this Squawk Pod delivers both granular expertise and intimate human drama.

Transcript

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Bring in show music please.

[Joe Kernan]

Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod, President Trump departs China. But did he or the CEOs traveling with him make a few deals? And Taiwan's independence from China, A growing issue are reporter Eamon Javers in Beijing.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think that was a bellicose moment from President Xi Jinping going right at President Trump on the issue of Taiwan.

[Joe Kernan]

And Eunice Yoon with the Chinese reaction

[Eunice Yoon]

in the state press. There was no mention of President Trump's comments about Taiwan, which is a signal that the Chinese were not happy.

[Joe Kernan]

Then Dr. Oz, administrator of key entitlement programs on rooting out fraud within the

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Medicare and Medicaid system. It's about $100 billion. Think about that. Put it in context. If we could fix the fraud in Medicare just by itself, we would double the life expectancy of the Medicare, of the program itself.

[Joe Kernan]

And his career as a cardiothoracic surgeon

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

doing heart surgery was was the best job of my life, except for the current job.

[Joe Kernan]

He had a massive impact on a longtime Squawk Box guest, Evercore founder Roger Altman.

[Roger Altman]

I owe an unpayable debt amendment. Unpayable debt because I'm probably in the top 10% of survival rates.

[Joe Kernan]

It's Friday, May 15, 2026. Squawk Pod begins right now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand Andrew 5, 3, 2, 1, up and Andrew 2.

Good morning. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC on this Friday morning. We are live from the NASDAQ market site in Times Square. I'm Andrew Osorkin along with Joe Kernan.

[Joe Kernan]

Becky is off President Trump making his way back to the US after meeting with China's president in Beijing. Eamon Javors is there and joins us with the biggest takeaways from the trip. It should have been positive initially, I would think. Eamon saying, you know, President Xi agrees that Iran can't have a nuclear weapon and agrees that it should not be able to dictate what happens in the Strait. This Taiwan stuff is that just reading it sort of sends a chill up my spine? It really does, because it was a. It was throwing down the gauntlet in a. In a way that almost says the United States has enjoyed not making the decision on this. The strategic ambiguity. We're going to force you to make a decision on this. And it was very bellicose the, the way that, that he said it. And, and I don't know what, you know, I saw Secretary of State Rubio had a response to it which was sort of measured, but yet, you know, fairly strident in what he said. The President hasn't said anything yet, but it sets us up for. I don't know what. Damon.

It's frightening because Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon. You know, how many nuclear weapons that

China has and how many we have.

We can't go to war with China.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, absolutely not. I mean, China is a global superpower, and a war between the United States and China would just be devastating on so many levels. Look, I think that was a bellicose moment from President Xi Jinping going sort of right at President Trump on the issue of Taiwan. We still don't know exactly what President Trump said in response to that. We do have the statement from Marco Rubio saying that US Policy on Taiwan has not changed, but we don't know exactly what the wording was behind closed doors between the two presidents to see if we can get any readout on that. No change in Chinese policy on Iran. We saw the very positive comments, like a lot of enthusiastic, friendly commentary around this, but not a lot of movement in terms of policy. We didn't see the Chinese signal that they're gonna do anything in particular on Iran at all. And we didn't see any confirmation from the Chinese side of any trade agreements of any kind. Right. So the President left Here at about 2:41 this morning, East coast time, 2:41 in the afternoon here in Beijing, with really nothing to announce. And it was telling to me, guys, that the hotel where they have the press staying here in Beijing has what's called a press file. And that's usually where all the reporters do their work. And White House officials will come and talk, State Department officials will come and talk. They had a podium set up from the US Embassy in China in case anybody wanted to make any announcements. And that podium went unused all week. We didn't see any announcements at all, no White House officials briefing the press at all announcing anything before the President left. So we'll see if they have particulars to announce when they land back in Washington. But as of now, we didn't hear anything other than positive rhetoric. Here's what the President said when he was meeting with Xi Jinping earlier today.

[President Donald Trump]

We've made some fantastic trade deals, great for both countries. He's a man I respect greatly become really a friend. We've known each other now 11 years, almost 12 years. That's a long time. And we've settled a lot of different problems that other people wouldn't have been able to settle. And the relationship is a very strong one. We've really done some wonderful things.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We also saw Jameson Greer, the US Trade Representative on Bloomberg News, giving an interview. He said, you know, there's a lot of attention focused on Nvidia this week. Would they or would they get a deal from the Chinese to buy Nvidia chips? He said, we do expect to see an agreement for agriculture sales to China, but we did not talk about chip export controls at this meeting. And he said that purchases of the Nvidia H200 chips will be a sovereign decision by China. So far China has made the sovereign decision not to purchase those chips even though they've been approved for export by the United States. The Chinese are worried about us tampering with those chips, also worried about protecting their own domestic chip manufacturers. So they want to encourage, encourage their own companies to buy local here in China. So in terms of takeaways, Joe, I mean, we don't see a lot of movement on Iran, we don't see a lot of movement on trade. We'll see if either side has announcements to make in the coming hours.

[Joe Kernan]

Eamon, we sat here yesterday with the CEO of Cerebras, Sorkin and he had this incredible, this huge chip and we talked about Taiwan and TSMC and he said that 90% of the most important high tech chips come from Taiwan. So this Taiwan issue, it's converging, converging with, with AI and, and what we're trying to do. And I, I think that's a, that's probably obvious to President Xi as well. And just to decide, okay, here's the time when we're going to actually force the issue is what it looks like to me. And, and you know, the journal, whoever writes some of the op ed pages has a classical education. They bring up something called a Thucydides Trap, which has happened at least 30 times in the past where a rising power to challenge the. The established power says or does something that eventually ends up causing a conflict in their quest to eventually eclipse the, the established power. And happened in Germany, you know, it happened in World War II, and it's happened all the way, you know, two, 3,000 years ago. And a lot of. I guess that's obviously why it goes all the way back to ancient Greece. But yeah, I think it's unsettling. And that's part of the one takeaway. That's the one takeaway from what happened if.

What would we, what would we do

if there was a blockade? If China did a blockade of Taiwan, and then if they get Taiwan, they got the whole.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's a really good question area.

[Joe Kernan]

What will we do?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So Taiwan, Yeah, I mean, so the US policy on Taiwan has always been one of strategic ambiguity. We don't say what we would do. You know, would you see US Marines on the beaches defending Taiwan? The US has never said, right. The US says, you know, it doesn't support Taiwanese independence. The Chinese want the US to go farther and say it actually opposes Taiwanese independence. And look, even before you lay in AI, Taiwan was vitally important to the Chinese. They view this as a breakaway province, an unresolved civil war from the Communist revolution that they would like to finally resolve in Beijing's favor at some point. All the analysts I've talked to about Xi Jinping have all said that Xi Jinping views himself as a. A big Chinese leader in a historical sense and wants to finish the job on Taiwan before he is done being president of at some point. So when would that point be and how would that look? Would it be sort of a D day style invasion or would it be a slow, choking, politically and economically, a naval blockade? There are a lot of different options for what the Chinese could do in Taiwan. I mean, they have absorbed Hong Kong very slowly and quietly, but really changed the entire texture of Hong Kong democracy over the space of just two decades. Could it be that kind of slow approach in Taiwan, or could we see something much more kinetic and dramatic that the US has to respond to militarily? That was all on the line already with a major democratic ally in the region in Taipei. Now you overlay the chips and AI and the absolute crucial role that Taiwan plays in the global AI story. And what you have is an enormous strategic vulnerability for the world. If the Chinese were to take Taiwan in some quick way and be able to take over the production of global chips that would give the Chinese an advantage in the most important scientific area right now. And there's a straight in the global

[Joe Kernan]

economy and there's another strait to close.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, right. And a naval blockade would be tricky. Right. One other idea, which is that the U.S. the U.S. military in Iran has expended a lot of munitions. The US Navy has been unable to open the Strait of Hormuz. The Chinese are watching that and calculating exactly, you know, what their advantage or disadvantage is vis a vis the US Military. They look at that depletion of stores and what the Navy has been unable to do there, and they're factoring all of that into their calculations.

So, Eamonn, you know, prior to this meeting and this summit, the last sort of 48 hours prior to it, there seemed to be a real effort to tamp down any expectation of any kind of deal, that there was sort of an effort to say this is just a meeting about stability, even though then, you know, there were conversations with the treasury secretary and others about whether it be a trillion dollar deals. You know, what we see, the kinds of things that we've seen before. Do you walk out of this and stay. We got, we didn't get the deals. I think that seems pretty clear. I know you're, you're sort of suggesting maybe there's gonna be deals we're gonna hear about in the, in the neck when he lands, but I don't know about that part. Maybe. If not, though, do you look at this and say this created more stability, less stability?

Look, if nothing else changes, Andrew, and we don't get an announcement of some deals, you know, in the coming hours with the president landing back in the US and the Chinese sort of issuing their. If it's status quo as we're standing right now, what do we get out of this? Well, no trade deals, no Iran breakthrough. So the global economy is as it was earlier in the week. And there's no resolution of the Strait of Hormuz, which I think some analysts were hoping you might see some daylight there. But what did we actually get? You know, some good words, some, some kind words, some good feeling. I mean, if you go back a year ago, this relationship was much more tense with the tit for tat trade war, the tariffs, the control of the rare earths by the Chinese. We were in a much more hostile posture a year ago. This is at least a much more friendly posture. So if you are a business person looking at this, you say, well, at least they're talking.

[Joe Kernan]

We were.

Yeah, we've talked because we're going to talk about Cerebras, which was crazy yesterday.

Where did it open? 3. 3 what?

380 or something.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It opened pretty high.

[Joe Kernan]

Unbelievable. And about the strait, so they said, yeah, it should be open, but are they going to help? Yeah, we didn't get that either.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't think the Chinese said that. They they agree the strait should be open and they agree that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon. They didn't say anything specific about what they're going to do about any of that, though.

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah. Okay. I think, you know, all these things play into. Well, we were at new highs, so

I don't want to make too much of it, but it's a pretty big

sell off that we're seeing, especially in the nasdaq.

Anyway, thanks.

Amen.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Cheese will be next.

[Joe Kernan]

Coming up on Squawk pod I said

Dr. Oz, because whether it's the TV

show or whatever the hell it was,

people have this notion reuniting CMS Administrator Dr. Mehmet Oz.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

I'm in the change business. I just love being in a place where we can make a difference.

[Joe Kernan]

With former patient, longtime investment banker Roger Altman.

[Roger Altman]

At the time I was so ill, Foreign.

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[Joe Kernan]

welcome back to Squawk Pod from CNBC Today with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin.

A new industry wide coalition of 29 major healthcare companies has come together to simplify prior authorization for medical treatment. Joining us now on that and much more, Dr. Mehmet Oz, administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. And when you sat down, we did

talk a little bit about some of the fraud that you've uncovered.

But we intro'd you with this other issue, which I think it's kind of

interesting because it's almost diametrically opposed to trying to uncover fraud. We need, I guess, these. UnitedHealthcare recently decided to streamline authorization for a lot of this stuff because they've been criticized so much. So 30% of the procedures are gonna be easier to do. Now this is a huge initiative for you and it could be really, really important for what we reimburse and what we don't for patients to be able to do this quickly without a lot of paperwork and we've got AI and all this stuff. Can't we do it in a great, more facile way?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Without question. It is the single issue that angers patients more than anything. And the reason for that is you're having this precious discussion with your doctor in their office. And doctor says you need to have a biopsy of this to find out if it's cancer. Oh my gosh, I'm scared. I got to take care of this as soon as possible. I want it done yesterday. And then the long arm of insurance reaches in, says, hold on a second, Joe, wait a minute, hold on. I know you paid your insurance premiums, but before you go any further, we're going to make sure you actually need this procedure done. And it takes you six weeks to find that.

[Joe Kernan]

Six weeks.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Six. I mean, for no reason. So we went out. This is a very important principle. The president said you can make laws, you can pass rules and regulations, but you also have the power to convene, you know, get folks to come together and ask him very directly, will you fix this on your own? If you do that, we're gonna Keep paying just like we've been paying, and we don't have to make all these other things happen. That could be very uncomfortable. Plus, the power to convene means industry does it on their own. It's a nimble solution. These folks are world experts, and if they do it the right way, it's a better answer for the American people.

[Joe Kernan]

The reason I said it was sort of almost the opposite of the fraud investigation. If you don't qualify or if you've got doctors that are trying to do things that aren't necessary, God forbid that there's, there's physicians that do things like that. You want to make sure that the procedure is necessary and covered by insurance. So, you know, on the one hand, trying to cut down on fraud, on the other hand, you're making it easier for people to get approval for a lot of procedures.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Prior authorization probably reduces healthcare expenses about 20%.

[Joe Kernan]

Right.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

It's a big deal because it's not just because of fraud. Sometimes doctors don't quite keep up with the, with the times. The procedures are out of date. They recommend the wrong medications, the wrong tests, they do the wrong procedures. No one's perfect. Not every doctor finishes top half of the class, right? Half don't. And so you've got to be able to get everyone to function at the highest ability that they have. Prior authorization helps that what we announced this week, which is important, is we've got all the insurance companies you mentioned, UnitedHealthcare, but the industry in general has cut down prior authorization already in the last year, more than 10%. And they're rapidly going towards the goal we set for them, which is being able to do it immediately. You see your doctor in that office visit I I described, they can describe almost immediately whether you're eligible or not and move on. But the problems are the doctors are faxing back answers. We want to axe the fax from now on. It needs to be digital. Joe, Remember, when the data doesn't flow, there's friction in the system. There's a reason for friction. People make money when there's friction. There are toll takers who charge you a little something extra for the effort to get past the friction in the system. We want doctors and insurance companies talking with electronic medical record systems directly. They're now committed. There's a watering hole, basically safe place. Everyone goes. They're starting to exchange data immediately. They're beginning to trust each other enough so that if you're in the doctor's office, the insurance company can reach into the electronic medical record. Know that Joe deserves to have this procedure and they're going to get it immediately authorized, so there's no more arguments.

[Joe Kernan]

And there was a controversy with UnitedHealthcare,

I think, in Medicare Advantage. Right. For doctors looking at some arcane conditions that maybe someone has, maybe they don't have, and then prescribing all kinds of procedures and drugs for that, too. Do you remember that, that situation?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Oh, very well. It's called upcoding.

[Joe Kernan]

Upcoding.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

They'll go to your off to your office or to your home and they'll say, hey, listen, I'm going to examine you for things that you may have that I'm not going to treat. Now, in fairness, I do think the insurance industry is well aware of this and we have not tolerated this at all.

[Joe Kernan]

They pass it off as preventive, I guess, don't they?

You don't even know you have this,

but I've got a plan for you to take care of it. That's horrible.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Well, it's wrong and it undermines the system. The idea was if you're taking care of sicker patients, you should get paid a little extra as an insurance company because it's going to cost you more. But this is actually part of a much larger issue in healthcare, which is about health fraud and abuse. And we think within the Medicare and Medicaid system, it's about $100 billion. Think about that. Put it in context. If we could fix the fraud in Medicare just by itself, we will double the life expectancy of the Medicare, of the program itself. So everyone out there who's working their tails off right now trying to keep up with life, who hopes that one day when they get to 65, they're going to be able to retire safely onto Medicare, we will double the life expectancy if we deal with the fraud, waste and abuse. So this week, as you probably witnessed with the vice president, we made a series of large announcements. We're aggressively going after the fraud. There are several examples, but I'm going to just challenge you with a couple. And for the audience at home, just pay attention. This is really cool. Think about this. One third of all the hospices in the entire country are in Los Angeles, not California, just la. Here in New York City. The number one job, all these people working out here, number one job in New York City, personal care services, that someone's carrying the groceries upstairs for their parents and they're getting paid for it, or they're driving them to the doctor's office getting paid for it. These two phenomenon are Stunning to me because their aberration so large in any other sector, you would have picked it up years ago. In California, as an example, the Auditor General warned the current governor that there was a problem with hospice fraud. But remember, if you're stealing people's money when they're most vulnerable, you'll steal their health, you'll steal their life, which is what we're finding in California. So we this week announced that we're going to stop paying suspend payments on 800 hospices in California. 800?

[Joe Kernan]

How many are in LA? Almost all of them.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

There are about 1800 in LA, so almost half. And we're still going. And here's the shocking part of all those people, just a handful, even raised a voice and said, wait a minute, are you sure? Everybody else said, I'm running away. I'm like rats scurrying for the corners trying to get off the sinking ship. They recognize the gigs up here in New York. I've got a major concern because if you have a jobs program with Medicaid money, which is what's happened here, because that's the question you should ask yourself. These governors think, is this really a flaw? If there's this kind of fraud, or could it be a feature? Is it possible that we actually are okay with some Medicaid fraud? Because after all, the federal government's paying people to do things normally your family would do for you with no money. Now you're not unemployed, you're getting income. I'm taxing that income for the state. And here's the part that's really bothering me. I've just found out that they're beginning to unionize these personal care services. So the big union here at the service union, 1199, is unionizing these personal care services. It will double the size of the union. And we're concerned about political patronage. Are you really interested in taking care of folks who need help or trying to stay out of the hospital or nursing homes? Or is this a jobs program with a political patronage kicker that can help keep money flowing to the political parties? We cannot allow this to happen. The President and the Vice President who leads the the White House Anti Fraud Task Force, aren't going to tolerate it.

[Joe Kernan]

So you found some similar fraud in my home state of Ohio as well? The same. Same type of thing as Minnesota?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Very similar. Again, there's a large Somalian population. The fraud is around Columbus. It's very concerning. And like Minnesota, where we actually had to defer payment, we've stopped paying about $350 million to Minnesota because they just couldn't show us the number.

[Joe Kernan]

Do you worry about that? That people that need it aren't going to get it?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

We don't want to hurt the people in Minnesota. We want to make sure that people are paying attention.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Is there a trend underneath though about who owns all these places?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Because very good question. It turns out there's large organized criminal syndicates that are involved and they often have foreign connections. So we believe they may be foreign government connections. So we've got Russian mafia in la, we've got Chinese mafia. Go to Flushing, Queens to see what happens. You can't walk through the streets without people telling you, you know, you should probably leave now. And these are organized, very well oiled efforts to suck money out of the Medicaid and Medicare systems. They go into these, these accounts that quickly are laundered, right. And then they're shipped overseas. One third, let's go to Florida. It's not just a blue state issue. 1/3 of all of, well of the durable medical equipment suppliers, they sell wheelchairs, canes, things. So there are twice as many of those as McDonald's in South Florida and they're run by Cubans. Frequently when they're approached by law enforcement, they flee back to Cuba and the money disappears off to the Cayman Islands. So the goal for us is the money never leaves the building. The agency, the president's having me run CMS, which is Medicare, Medicaid, we cover about 170 million lives. We don't want the money leaving the building. So if you're trying to defraud our programs and it's unfortunately become easier and easier to do that because there was no real discipline in the prior administration to deal with this, these, these program integrity issues. We're going to shut you down.

[Joe Kernan]

We're going to take a break and

bring out another guest that I've been wanting to do this for a while.

We're very excited about this, about this,

about Roger Altman and we'll explain why I was going to ask you about the California loophole is that if you close that now, you know how they cover everyone, all the illegal immigrants are covered by what it's called medical. And then they do this, this accounting sort of sleight of hand where federal funds come in to cover other things and then they use what they would have used those funds to cover other things to cover the, the illegal.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

We announced this week we are deferring $1.34 billion just for this last audit, the last quarter audit from California because of that kind of shenanigans. It's not fair for taxpayers in New Mexico and Arizona and Mississippi to pay extra federal taxes to compensate because California wants to give benefits to undocumented individuals. And lots of other things.

[Joe Kernan]

We heard that never happens. Keem Jeffries looked me straight. Never.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Not only is it happening, California is paying us back already. You don't pay someone back money. You don't owe them.

[Joe Kernan]

All right,

So our next guest has a long history with him and with Squawkbox. Roger Altman is founder and senior chairman of Evercore. He's on all the time, and we talk about a wide range of subjects. There's been times when we've had Dr. Oz on at one point or had you on separately. And I said, we've got to get you two gentlemen together at some point, and we will tell people why. Now, 24 years ago. Well, you tell the story. You were faced with a very difficult decision. You needed a heart transplant 24 years ago.

[Roger Altman]

Well before his current and so far successful stint at CMS, Dr. Oz was a brilliant heart surgeon and as celebrated a transplant surgeon as there was in the country. And I was very ill for some years, actually beginning in 1992. But by the end of 2001, I was so ill, from a cardiac point of view, I couldn't be outside a hospital.

[Joe Kernan]

It was congestive heart failure?

[Roger Altman]

No. I had a condition called ventricular tachycardia, which means essentially you're. You have an electrical failure in your heart system, causes your heart rate to explode upward to levels where it stops actually pumping. It's really fluttering. Not enough oxygen and not enough blood gets to your brain. And if it's not interrupted or stop this problem, you'll die. And I was having regular episodes of ventricular tachycardia. And so I was hospitalized up uptown here in New York at Columbia Presbyterian. I had to be there indefinitely waiting for a heart transplant. And there's quite a wonderful, poignant little story. I had never met Mehmet, and I'm lying there in this icu, and it's pretty grim because I'm. I'm really not doing well. And he came into my room one day and introduced himself, and he said, I'm going to Davos in a couple of weeks to give a speech. I know you served in government before, twice, and I wonder if you'd look at my speech and see if you could improve it. So he left it with me, and I lie in there and I read it. And he comes back a couple of Days later. And I say, I'll work on the speech. It needs a lot of work. I probably said it needs more work than it did on one condition, which is you do my heart transplant. Now the background to that is you never know when the organ, a kidney, a liver, a lung, a heart will arrive at the hospital because it's a result of an accident usually, and the sudden reality of a donor, so you don't know when it's coming. And so the protocol is that there's a team, a transplant team on duty 247 and whichever surgeon is on duty at the time does your operation. But I thought to myself, why not get the very best? So I said, I'll work on your speech if you promise to do my heart transplant no matter when the heart shows up, whatever day or whatever hour of the day or night amendment agreed. And in the middle of the night on February 1, 2002, he did my heart transplant. And 24 years and three months later, I'm still here. And I owe an unpayable debt to Mehmet. Unpayable debt because I'm probably in the top 10% of survival rates. And it started in without Mehmet, I, I wouldn't be here.

[Joe Kernan]

And I mean I, I listen to you and I just, it's move, it's, it's very moving. But one of the reasons I wanted

to do this, Oz told me, Memet

told me this and I said, maybe you did. And I said, Dr. Oz, because whether

it's the TV show or whatever the hell it was, people have this notion of doc, of doctor. I don't know whether it was worth it to do that in TV show.

Just the other night, some guy on

Bravo, well known someone mentioned your name.

He goes, whoa, I think this Andy

Cohen went, oh, one of our great minds and rolled his eyes and totally questioned your medical credentials. And I just, and I'm not your defender. I don't care, you know what I mean? But it really, when I heard it totally changed my impression of.

[Roger Altman]

Well, at the time I was so ill, Mehmet was at the top, at the pinnacle of this profession. And anyone who could have gotten him to do the surgery, it's pretty scary surgery would have wanted to. And this little opportunity presented itself, his Davos speech, for me to grab him. And I did. And he agreed to be grabbed and he did the surgery. And I, I have benefited every hour since that time.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Well, Roger, I was going to do your transplant anyway. Your national treasure. We would definitely made sure that you did well, the thing about. Let's talk about these two issues first, television. The President brings us up all the time.

[Joe Kernan]

Well, it's not just the TV now. It's tds. I mean, you're associated with Trump and the Trump administration, so you're, you know, POS or whatever for doing that. It's just, you know, hyper tds. But it's good. I've told people in the White House this story. They have no idea. You don't tell people, but. And your last heart Transplant surgery was 2020, did you say?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Yeah, before. Just before the pandemic. I started. I stopped doing heart surgery. But you don't. You don't go around bragging about your patients. I've actually operated a lot of people, you know, but it's not polite, it's not appropriate, and we have a code of conduct. We don't talk about if Roger hadn't come out here. God bless you, Roger, because whenever you're on Squawk Box talking about it, I. Folks send me the clips, and I feel greatly honored. But doing heart surgery was. Was the best job of my life, except for the current job. And the reason for that is I get to look at someone in the eyes like I am with Roger right now. And by the way, the reason he's alive, God bless you for thanking me, but it's your out to his wife. The people who live this many years with transplants, they have loved ones who are guarding them. They're making sure that everything's done correctly. And so that is really true. And so I. But I. But. But I'm in the change business. I just love being in a place where we can make a difference and a heart transplantation. At the time, we were rapidly growing an opportunity to save lives. We were inventing new kinds of mechanical heart devices so that we can keep people alive so they could get a heart transplant. You have to actually have a community that donates hearts. All these things are opportunities. I did the show for the same reason. I recognized America wasn't getting the health message because we weren't giving it to you. We're sitting in the ivory tower, in my case, at Columbia, you know, we think we're hot stuff, but the average American's dying for preventable causes. But if you really want to make a difference, you go in the government, and I'll say that very boldly. Now we are actively recruiting. The other agencies are as well. This is a unique generational opportunity, not just because of us, it's because of technology. We will have the ability during this administration to use digital tools to completely change how information flows in healthcare. We're sitting in an environment where you see data flow seamlessly all the time. We have the opposite in medicine, and toll takers do that on purpose. We can change that. We can get doctors and hospitals and insurance companies and all the other players in the health system collaborating. But the reason Roger Altman's Alive Today, 24 years later, is because you wouldn't take no for an answer. You will fight for success with your family, and ratio helped you that we have technologies that are advanced that catch up to him. But there's something, a miracle, about an individual who can make peace with their heart. And let me just think about this with you in a second when your heart has rejected you and Roger's heart was stopping on him periodically and killing him. So you came back from death how many times?

[Roger Altman]

About five.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Five times. That's a lot there. So he's got four more lives left, by the way.

[Roger Altman]

He's not joking. I mean over the edge. Over the edge, you know, I mean, flatline.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

And so when you're alive and you can deal with the fact that your heart is dying on you, and then you get a new heart, you make peace with it. You become a chimera. You slowly start to exchange cells in your body. And when that happens, it's a miracle. The concept that you could be alive 24 hours after a transplant. And Roger's not alone. It's happening more and more. But of course, we need people to donate. And what Roger really, to me, represents is an opportunity to wake up America. If you don't tell your family today that, God forbid, something were bad happened to you, give my organs to someone else. You can't take them with you. There will not be enough Roger Altman. And we have a miracle sitting in our table.

[Joe Kernan]

Do you know who donated your heart? Do you have a family?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, there's a person, but you don't have family.

[Roger Altman]

There's a strict protocol on this. So all I know is it was a woman four years younger than me who died of a fall in Buffalo, New York. And I wrote a letter to the hospital. You have to do that. They won't give you the identity to be given to her family. And there was no response. And then a couple years later, I wrote another one, and there was also no response. These letters were forwarded to the family, but that's understandable. A lot of families don't want to confront, you know, the death that occurred. And here's someone who's still alive on account of that death. It's difficult. So, no, I never was able to make contact with the family despite those efforts, and that's not uncommon. So I know nothing other than that I was 55, she was 51, and she died of a fall.

[Joe Kernan]

And she lived above crazy anecdotes about

people that actually can feel the presence of whoever gave them the heart.

I can't imagine that that's so metaphysical.

[Roger Altman]

But as Mehmet said, there's a tremendous challenge here in terms of the number of donors. They're not really increasing. In fact, based on some technologies like safer vehicles and fewer vehicular deaths, they're decreasing. And so it's quite hard to get the number of transplants, in particular heart transplants up in this country. They really haven't risen very much because of the. Of the lack of.

[Joe Kernan]

Obviously is very successful. You were going to come on on Monday.

Book Monday, will you.

Will you come on on Monday still?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Do you?

[Roger Altman]

Sure.

[Joe Kernan]

Can you so do that? Because we want to talk about all the things we would normally talk to Roger about, whether it's, you know, if

[Roger Altman]

you like,

[Joe Kernan]

and everything else.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So I. I just have a question to the doctor.

[Joe Kernan]

Yes.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

In case this happens to us now, then you're not practicing.

[Joe Kernan]

He did it in 2022. You did surgery?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Yes.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do you think that robots are going to be doing what you did to him, even five years or 10 years, and do it better? Like when you think about what the future of this looks like, when I need this, am I going to be having a doctor do this to me?

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Well, there's different kinds of procedures in terms of technical challenges. A heart transplant, it's a long, long way away for a robot. But there are other procedures we do that robots, because they can be extraordinarily precise, might be better. And a good example is eye surgery, where we're already delegating a lot of the procedure to a robot because these are micron different, like LASIK surgery examples. But there will be other procedures that we do do. Heart surgery, some coronary bypass, some valve operations. We'll use robots to help make the process go better. But you need a doctor involved. And this is probably the biggest battle we're going to face over the next few years. About two thirds of Americans don't trust AI to be able to be giving them health advice without a doctor involved. That's a reasonable fear to have. So we're going to have to have human beings, but there's a human element to it as well. Roger, I think maybe close with this reality. I think part of getting someone through a major procedure like this is trusting them. So you've got to be able to connect with each other and understand that you'll be there for each other. And it was the most fulfilling part of the entire process for me was knowing that people knew I would be there and they could trust me and I knew that they'd also be my partner because without that, you don't get these big operations done successfully. I want to thank you, Joe, for bringing me together. Roger, it's a great Last night when you texted, say you're not going anywhere after your segment. No, you've been wanting.

[Joe Kernan]

You had to change your schedule.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

It's worth it. God bless you for making it happen

[Joe Kernan]

and thank you for.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Thank you.

[Joe Kernan]

I texted Rod and you said, I'll be there immediately because I owe this guy.

[Roger Altman]

Well, I do. He calls me and says, look, I can't tell you why, but you need to be in Alaska tomorrow night. I'll be there.

[Joe Kernan]

I said that to Jensen Wong. Dr. Ross, thank you.

We'll be right back.

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[Joe Kernan]

This is Squawk Pod.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

I want to say.

[President Donald Trump]

I'm not going to say that. There's only one person that knows that you know who it is. Me. I'm the only person. That question was asked to me today by President Xi. I said I don't talk about that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand by, Joe in 3, 2, 1. His mic Q.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Wow.

[Joe Kernan]

Waiting for this evening. Good tease. President Trump just speaking to reporters on Air Force One. Eamonn has the details. Do tell, Joe.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's right. The president talking to reporters just a few moments ago on Air Force One. He was asked about his conversation with Xi Jinping on Taiwan. The president said that Xi Jinping asked him if the United States would defend Taiwan in case of a military confrontation. The president said he didn't respond to that, but striking, of course, Joe, that Xi Jinping would have asked President Trump directly about the issue of Taiwan and whether or not the United States would defend the island militarily. The president saying here that he just simply didn't respond and moved on to a different topic. On the issue of the H200 chips in Nvidia, the president said those did not come up in conversation on tariffs. The president said those did not come up in the conversation. On the issue of Iran and the blockade, the president said that he did not ask Xi Jinping for any favors on the blockade. He said there was a proposal on Iran that he didn't like and he dismissed it out of hand because the first sentence was not good. He didn't say exactly what the first sentence was that was not good from the Chinese side. But he says he dismissed that. He's not asking for any favors. And it does not sound, from the way the president was talking, Joe, that he will be getting any help from the Chinese in the Strait of Hormuz or with the Iranians. So the president talking to reporters, you know, a testy exchange at times with some of the members of the media who are on the plane calling them names and so forth, but suggesting that he had a good visit, he enjoyed his meeting with Xi Jinping and he considers him a friend.

[Roger Altman]

Joe?

[Joe Kernan]

Yeah.

I would ask you what, what, what names, but it's like a cat. If you, you know, you clap first time the cat jumped. But we're getting sort of used to it. Any new variations on the names to call a reporter stupid or any, anything worth.

Let's laugh.

No, I mean, we'll probably read about the Post tomorrow.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The president is a. Yeah, the president's frustrated with the New York Times coverage of the war in Iran. He views it as a military success, and he says it's treasonous for reporters to raise questions about whether in fact, that's true.

[Joe Kernan]

I am back thinking about tone. So he, he didn't say, I don't see a conflict with Taiwan or that's what we're surmising.

He didn't say anything.

He didn't respond to President Xi when he said it. But I guess the strategic ambiguity according to Trump.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, sorry for the delay here. But according to Trump, Xi Jinping asked him directly if the US Would defend Taiwan in the case of a military confrontation, and President Trump said he didn't respond to that. I think it's striking that Xi Jinping would ask him directly whether the United States would defend Taiwan.

[Joe Kernan]

It is.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The policy, as we talked about earlier in the show, has always been strategic ambiguity by the US not to answer that question. The president says that he didn't answer it here, but Xi Jinping clearly strikes him. I think he's testing clearly on Xi's mind.

This is the moment, this is the whole game right here for president, for Xi Jinping. I would ask him. You have to imagine he would ask him. It was also a way of saying, we may do this at some point.

[Joe Kernan]

But, Eamon, are you sure that President Trump didn't point at him and say, don't, don't. Because that always works. I mean, if you talk tough, that that has worked.

Well, don't.

Let's say that to you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We didn't. Well, he didn't say he didn't. He didn't say that he did.

So he didn't.

But, you know, look, he. Yeah. So, you know, Xi Jinping asking Trump directly about this, I think is. Is telling. Right. That he wants an answer.

[Joe Kernan]

We've been conversing here.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The president did say, some of us

[Joe Kernan]

think that it might be that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Are we.

[Joe Kernan]

Is Trump acquiescing? Is the president acquiescing or we don't. It's ambiguous. What is he likely to do?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, but the president did say in this gaggle just now with reporters, he said the last thing we need is another war 9,000 miles away. So it sounded to my ear anyway, listening to that comment, that the president was suggesting the United States does not want to be involved in any war. Now, can you read into that, that the United States would not be involved in any war if the Chinese were to attack? I don't think you can go that far because clearly the United States could get into a war that it doesn't want if it feels it has to. But the President said the last thing we need is a war 9,000 miles away. It's very far away. So what was the signal sent there? What message was received by Xi Jinping? That's a fascinating question, but also fascinating, I think, guys, is that he did not discuss the H200 chips and he did not discuss tariffs.

[Dr. Mehmet Oz]

Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I mean, and both of those things were top of the agenda at the top, at the beginning of this week. A lot of analysts expecting that both topics would be broached. And maybe, you know, having some. Some resolution in favor of U.S. companies that apparently just wasn't discussed doesn't constitute

[Joe Kernan]

a wink and a nod.

I wonder if it constitutes a wink maybe, or just a nod, maybe.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Hey, Eamon, what. What is your sense of the H200 piece? And then, you know, we still. Everyone's always trying to read the tea leaves on the. The pickup of Jensen in. In Alaska on the way over there. Some people had thought maybe he was going over there in part to try to make a deal. Or do you think that all that. All the CEOs who were there were there to make deals or to be sort of. I don't want to say props, but props into sort of a larger conversation about America and American power?

Yeah, I think they were props, Andrew, and I think they're willing props, very much so. You listen to the body language, the words, and look at the body language of the CEOs who were here. They were here to be supportive. They were here to show American industrial strength and to support the President and to try to get some deals of their own on the side if they could. I think they all knew what that was going in. I think there was a lot of unfounded speculation early in the week. I've been talking to you guys about this all week about an Nvidia deal. And the fact that Jensen was on the plane meant that some kind of deal was imminent. It clearly was not. I mean, we were not hearing any footsteps on that in advance. We haven't heard anything about it since. I think it was simply the fact that the President realized he wasn't on the manifest and wanted him on the airplane, and so he got him on the airplane, and that's maybe all there is to it for Jensen. What he wants is the Chinese to buy the chips that have already been authorized for purchase by the United States back in December. The Chinese are not buying them because they want to cultivate their own domestic chip industry. And they don't want to lean on Nvidia and they don't want to have that sort of intelligence vulnerability to US Spying attempts through those chips. So Jensen wants them to make some purchases. It looks like they didn't make any purchases on this trip.

Eamon Jabbers, thank you. In the meantime, want to get over to Eunice Yoon, who may have some news from the Chinese side of all of this. Eunice?

[Eunice Yoon]

Well, Andrew, the Chinese state media is not reporting President Trump's comments on Air Force One at all. And I think what's interesting about President Trump's comment on board about Taiwan is that it really does explain why up until this point in the state press, there was no mention of of President Trump's comments about Taiwan, which is a signal that the Chinese were not happy with whatever it was that conversation was about Taiwan between President Trump and President Xi. The overarching readout with the Chinese was very glowing about President Trump's praise for President Xi. In that readout, the state media cited President Xi as saying that President Trump wants to make America great again, while President Xi wants Chinese rejuvenation. So putting President Xi on par with President Trump, it also cited President Trump as saying that the two signed deals and resolved issues, and it says that the two discussed hot regional issues. Now, underpinning this newfound friendship between the US And China is what the state media attributed to President Xi, which is a constructive, he says, new US China, strategic stability. But again, as, as Amen had mentioned, was no confirmation of any sort of deals or any formal agreements, not only in the state press, but also the Foreign Ministry. And also, I think what underscores the fragility of this relationship yet again is that we're just getting reports that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, is going to be visiting with President Xi next Wednesday.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Eunice, are you surprised that President Xi asked President Trump directly about Taiwan and about what he would ultimately do?

[Eunice Yoon]

Right. Well, based on what we heard yesterday and the fact that President Xi in the opening visit and kind of like the first moment when he and President Trump are sitting down, that he was stressing the issue that's so important to him, Taiwan, basically saying that if President Trump were to breach that red line when it comes to Taiwan, that the relationship could unfurl and end up in a dangerous scenario. So because his language was so strong yesterday, it's not so surprising that he would carry on today with, with that same sort of message.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But do you think that he's trying to force the issue? Meaning I think we're all now trying to understand whether that question and this, this issue right now, in this moment, given frankly, you know, our la. I mean, we have ammunition issues in terms of what. Just what our military is even capable of right now, given everything that's going on elsewhere around the world and whether we think in any way that President Xi would be trying to take advantage of this moment as it relates to Taiwan.

[Eunice Yoon]

Well, it could be a scenario where he's probing, because what we have been seeing is that China has become much more confident. A lot of the messaging over the past year is that since President Trump has come in with what the Chinese were described, the trade wars, the tariffs, that they've been able to survive, they've been able to do. Well, I think one other thing that is worth thinking about is how it seems as though the Chinese have become much more paranoid about what they're hearing out of William Lai in the president in Taiwan, that they're feeling much more. Because. Well, one thing that I would say about China is that the more you see them act confidently, the more it also underscores a certain vulnerability or an anxiety and paranoia that they have. And so because William Lai has been so forceful and so and talking so much about the potential for Taiwan independence, you're seeing the Chinese feeling that they need to clamp down on that and also maybe feeling a little bit more emboldened that they might be able to do it, especially if the US Is not going to be clamping down and putting pressure on them.

[Joe Kernan]

Units. What is the date that the most widely cited date for when Xi wants to do this is, is when there's some things coming up in. In the future in China where it would make sense that, that he wanted to get this done because it is something he wants to get done. What are those dates? Is it 2027 or later?

[Eunice Yoon]

Well, right, so that was a date that had been put out by U.S. intelligence officials that it could be 2027. But I mean, people still really don't know because even though, of course, there's always been a belief that President Xi would want to have the. What the Chinese describe as a reunification of Taiwan to China. Whereas the Taiwanese would say that there is no reunification, but the Chinese would argue that he would want that under his belt. You know, at the same time, the economy here is still quite fragile. You know, despite the fact that we've been seeing all these CEOs coming to town and talking about the potential for the market here, I mean, there's still a lot of fragility and so because of that, that could be a reason why President Xi would not want to go ahead with some sort of attack.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay. And then you just one last piece of this. Are you surprised that there were no conversations, at least as the president's, President Trump's described this, about tariffs at all or about these, these H200 Nvidia chips? I mean, I think that is surprising. And the other piece was on Iran. The president and President Trump suggested, effectively was a proposal put forward by President Xi that he dismissed outright.

[Eunice Yoon]

Yeah, well, for the tariffs, I think that it might not have come up because there was an expectation that since this is the first of four meetings this year, that there was a little bit of time to kind of address the tariff issues as well as rare earths, that the expectation is that the two sides, in kind of the spirit of stability, would want to kind of renew the truce, but that they might still have some time. And then in terms of Iran, I mean, there was, you know, this proposal, but, but at the same time, a lot of the comments that we heard that President Trump said about President Xi and the Chinese were things that we've heard before. So I think what we were looking for and a lot of, a lot of observers were looking for is whether or not the Chinese would commit to some sort of action. And that's something that we still haven't seen.

[Joe Kernan]

Okay.

All right, Eunice, thank you.

And that is Squawk Pod for today and for the week. Thank you for listening. I think we all deserve a weekend now. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick, and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern to get the smartest takes and analysis from our TV show right into your ears. Please follow Squawk Pod wherever you like to get your podcasts. We'll meet you right back here on Monday.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We are clear.

Thanks, guys.

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