Jonathan Hirsch (3:03)

So if somebody's. If somebody's never met you before, can you tell them what your name and where you're from? Oh, sure. My name is Thomas Hirsch, and I am, I don't know, ex acupuncturist. And so where were you born? I was born in Budapest, Hungary, and I came to this country when I was 17 years old.

Yvette Nicole Brown (3:36)

That's Jonathan's dad, Thomas, speaking about his childhood. This was years ago, before his dementia made conversations like this much harder. He was just a teenager when he fled Hungary in the lead up to the 1956 revolution.

Jonathan Hirsch (3:53)

What was it? What was it like in Hungary? At that time, Hungary was undergoing one of those periodic cleansing rituals against the Soviet Union. And there was a revolution. It got out of hand, I guess, and there was a window of opportunity, so to speak. The borders were open, and I came to the west, and so did my brother.

Yvette Nicole Brown (4:23)

After fleeing the Iron Curtain, Thomas arrived in the US Life as he knew it would never be the same. Eventually, in the early 80s, he met Jonathan's mom, Kathleen, at a meditation teaching in San Francisco. By the time Jonathan came along, both of his parents were deeply involved in the spiritual movement, following different gurus and earning money as acupuncture.

Jonathan Hirsch (4:44)

When I was born, the end of 84, my parents were gradually becoming involved with a spiritual teacher named Franklin Jones. And Franklin Jones was a controversial sort of charismatic guru.

Yvette Nicole Brown (4:58)

He was preaching enlightenment in California in the 1970s and 80s and had a devoted group of followers. If you're thinking this sounds like a cult, you're absolutely right.

Jonathan Hirsch (5:10)

What a miracle, what a wonder. I am He, I am God, I am the adept in our generation. What an amusement that should happen in precisely this form. I can't account for it myself. This group had a spiritual community primarily focused in Northern California, not too far from where we lived, but also around the world. Long story short, there was a kind of community that we would spend time with. There were friend groups that were starting to form around kids that grew up in that community.

Yvette Nicole Brown (5:51)

So Jonathan grew up in two worlds. There was regular kid stuff, you know, going to public school, riding his bike along the San Francisco waterfront, playing basketball with friends. And then there was this other reality at home where his parents were increasingly devoted to Franklin Jones. They listened to cassettes of his teachings and eventually moved closer to Jones compound outside of San Francisco. As Jonathan got older, Thomas put more and more pressure on him to Become devout.

Jonathan Hirsch (6:18)

He demanded that I become more involved in the group. He actually gave me an ultimatum. He said, you know, you either join or you have to find another place to live. And I was, you know, not even a teenager yet.

Yvette Nicole Brown (6:32)

So Jonathan tried to embrace the group's teachings until his parents had a falling out with Jones when he was 17. The day he turned 18, Jonathan got out of there. He left his whole world behind.

Jonathan Hirsch (6:46)

I left this group a little bit lost. And I would say through the first decade of my life as an adult, I both struggled to find my way and quietly had the burden of this question of what happened in those years. And so I met my wife in my late 20s, and we got married, and we moved to New York and later to Los Angeles. And around the time that we.

Yvette Nicole Brown (7:26)

Were.

Jonathan Hirsch (7:26)

Anticipating our first child, our son, I began to question whether or not there was a more deep and incisive look that I needed to have at what had happened to me as a kid. I was about to be a parent, and I was like, what am I and what is he inheriting from me culturally, emotionally, spiritually?

Yvette Nicole Brown (7:55)

Jonathan's parents had divorced by then, and he wasn't really talking to them much. But with a baby on the way, he wanted to dig into his childhood.

Jonathan Hirsch (8:02)

And so I began to look into it, and I produced a podcast series about that experience called Dear Franklin Jones. And, you know, my parents were part of it. They participated, members of the group participated, and nobody seemed to be particularly happy about the outcome of the story, which was a massive success. Did this spiritual experiment that I grew up in, did it in fact become a cult? And if so, what does that make Jones followers like my parents and me? I've been circling around these questions for years, but I never got up the courage to actually try and answer them until now.

Yvette Nicole Brown (8:47)

The podcast didn't go over well at home, especially with Thomas. If their relationship was strained before this made it even worse. In the podcast, Jonathan was critical of Franklin Jones and was honest about how it had affected his childhood. On the flip side, the show boosted Jonathan's career. This was during the podcast boom.

Jonathan Hirsch (9:06)

After Dear Franklin Jones came out in 2017, I started a production company called Me On Home. And so I found myself professionally in this position where I was growing a business in a fast in a rapidly growing market with a lot of opportunities on the horizon. And it was around that time. So I want to say, you know, late 2018 or so.

Yvette Nicole Brown (9:38)

So you're like, what, early 30s at this time?

Jonathan Hirsch (9:41)

Yeah, I'm like, 34. Yeah, that he started having some problems.

Yvette Nicole Brown (9:51)

What was your reaction to that?

Jonathan Hirsch (9:53)

I felt like, so my son was born in April of 2018, so everything was happening sort of all at once.

Yvette Nicole Brown (10:01)

It was a perfect storm.

Jonathan Hirsch (10:02)

I've got this. Got this new baby, and then my dad is sick.

Yvette Nicole Brown (10:10)

Thomas first got his dementia diagnosis around 2011, when he was 75. But it wasn't until several years later, in 2018, that his health had declined a lot, and Jonathan knew he had to step in. He got a call from his dad's longtime partner, who explained that Thomas needed more care than she could provide. So the call comes in and they're saying, what do you think? What's going through your mind?

Jonathan Hirsch (10:35)

I'm feeling panic when I first heard it, complete utter panic, because I was barely holding it together as it was. It was the one thing that tipped the scales.

Yvette Nicole Brown (10:48)

Jonathan was totally squeezed, running a business, caring for a newborn with his wife and realizing his dad needed care. After the break, Jonathan makes a tough decision on how he was going to show up in 2018. Jonathan was overwhelmed with his new company. Jonathan was in meetings all day, working nights, barely sleeping. It was overwhelming. So caring for his dad on top of it, it felt like way too much.

Jonathan Hirsch (11:21)

Caring for a parent, especially if you are estranged from them, can be the one extra thing. You just don't have the capacity for that. And that's kind of how it felt, you know, that's really how it felt. It felt like, oh, God, this is going to be too much, you know? And yet. And yet, on the other hand, there was a part of me, an unresolved part of me, that wondered if this was the moment when I would be able to fulfill my dad's needs to the point that he would see me.

Yvette Nicole Brown (12:04)

In my own way. I know what Jonathan means. My parents divorced when I was only 1 years old, so I never grew up in the house with my dad. The very first time we lived under the same roof was actually when I became his caregiver. I think this situation is more common than people might realize. And even though me and Jonathan's situations are not the same, I wanted him to know that in that regard, he wasn't alone. It's kind of in the same vein as where you are, in the sense that I'm caring for someone that I have no. In home, childhood memories with. I have no. We've never, you know, sat and ate, watched a movie, eaten with pajamas. It just. I didn't have any of those memories. And I'm building those memories with someone who's in the midst of losing their memory.

Jonathan Hirsch (12:49)

Yeah, I mean, and wow. I mean, yes, I can relate a lot to the sense of being a stranger to a person that you are now responsible for. And yet as a child, you have, as an adult who was once a child, I should say, you have this gulf between you and the parent that you may or may never be able to bridge. But it makes it all the more complicated.

Yvette Nicole Brown (13:19)

By stepping into this role, Jonathan had to find the right place for Thomas to live. It was tough. He looked into low cost state funded options for veterans, but those waiting lists were years long. Plus Thomas needed supervision. He could still walk and feed himself, but he often had wild mood swings and was prone to wandering. In the meantime, Jonathan got him into the local VA hospital, but Thomas hated it. So the options came down to this. Wait years on a list, bring him home or pay for private care. In the end, Jonathan went with private care.

Jonathan Hirsch (13:52)

We felt like we were led to believe that the cost was a lot less than what it actually was. So there was like, ooh, they get.

Yvette Nicole Brown (14:00)

You with that cost. Ooh, they get you.

Jonathan Hirsch (14:01)

Ooh, ooh, Lord, they really do. It's like a, you know, it's like going to a. It's like a used car salesman. You know, you show up and they tell you the base price and then you get into the back room and they got all of the add ons, you know.

Yvette Nicole Brown (14:16)

Well, if you want them to have food, an extra 2,000. Yeah, I'd like him to have food. I really would like him to have food.

Jonathan Hirsch (14:21)

He'd bring his own food three days a week. Yeah, it was stuff like that. And so before we knew it, we're paying enormous amounts of money.

Yvette Nicole Brown (14:29)

Thomas moved into that new memory care facility in January 2019. It was upwards of 7,000 to $8,000 per month, just wildly expensive. Besides the money, which I know is a huge part of it, what made some of the other facilities better than others? Because how many did he bounce around? Was it three? He bounced around to.

Jonathan Hirsch (14:47)

So he was. Yeah, so he was in this facility which was like sort of what they call a memory care facility, which was private around the clock care, but you know, the higher end of cost. And then when we moved him, we initially put him in a board in care.

Yvette Nicole Brown (15:05)

In the spring of 2022, Thomas settled into the board in care. It was a small in home facility for elderly people who didn't need 24, 7. Attention. The facility was only 35 minutes away from Jonathan and it also cost a quarter what he paid at the Memory care facility.

Jonathan Hirsch (15:21)

But at the time we were like, well I'll, you know, we're down the way, I'll come every day or every few days and hopefully that'll work out. Did not work out was awful. He was not. He needed more care than that facility could provide. It was after that that he was in another kind of similar care like situation but with like more elevated care. It was aborting care but just like a little bit better fit. But that, that facility then, which would have been the third one, just felt like a hospital. Yeah, it's, you know, you went in it like just smelled like cleaning supplies and everybody just was kind of like in one long hallway and you could hear, you know, the sounds of everybody from the different rooms. And some folks were just not in the greatest state or you know, had various different ailments that caused them to yell or scream or shout.

Yvette Nicole Brown (16:21)

Yeah, been there.

Jonathan Hirsch (16:22)

And he hated that. You know, I remember coming in to see him and him being like, you know, you put me in a loony bin or something to that effect.

Yvette Nicole Brown (16:31)

Jonathan knew it wasn't the nicest facility. It had old furniture, smelled like disinfectant and the lights were always a little dim. But it offered more stability for Thomas. During his visits, Jonathan would set up a movie for Thomas while he caught up on emails. Sometimes they chat a bit too. Before Jonathan headed back home.

Jonathan Hirsch (16:49)

Well, I should hop off to work, but yeah, I'll come by and bring you a coffee tomorrow. Ok, thank you.

Yvette Nicole Brown (16:59)

This is Jonathan visiting his dad in the facility in 2022. Thomas still had some moments of clarity, maybe 10 minutes at a time. They were fleeting moments that Jonathan cherished.

Jonathan Hirsch (17:10)

We're here. I was out of town when I saw you. Then I left for New York and I just got back, so. Make a lot of moves? No way. I like when I get to stay home though. All right, dad, love you. Okay, son, I'll see you tomorrow. Okay? All right. Yeah, have a good one. And we'll try to find some time in the next week or so to watch something together. Be careful. Okay? Be careful.

Yvette Nicole Brown (17:39)

Finding the right facility is so hard. I've been there too. Here's what I'll tell you. First, before you sign anything, go through their entire billing process so you know exactly what you'll be paying. Those costs can really add up. Look into benefits too, like Medicaid, veterans benefits and state specific programs. You can check out the USA.gov benefit finder tool for help. Long term care insurance is also a common way to cover facility costs. And Third, when you tour a facility, keep an eye out for things like cleanliness, how staff interact with residents, and safety features like handrails and call buttons. AARP has a helpful checklist. We'll link in the show notes. The right care and coverage can change over time, too. Thomas had been doing well at the last facility, even though it wasn't the nicest. But in the spring of 2023, he started having a series of mini strokes. They were almost like blackout events as blood pressure would drop and he would become unresponsive.

Jonathan Hirsch (18:35)

I took him to the VA hospital because my dad's a vet in Santa Monica. And finally that doctor, after this long journey, all that we'd been through, that doctor said he needs 24 hour care. And it was at that point that we were able to apply for was it medical, which now helps alongside his pension, will cover his costs mostly.

Yvette Nicole Brown (19:06)

Medi Cal is California's version of Medicaid, public health insurance for low income families, seniors and people with disabilities. It's funded by both the state and federal government. About 40% of Californians rely on Medi Cal and 3.4 million could lose coverage soon due to the recent Medicaid cuts signed into law by President Trump this summer. What was that like for you to have that safety net?

Jonathan Hirsch (19:31)

It was a huge relief. But, you know, I think the relief that came from it had to do with feeling unburdened from a responsibility to somebody who I still struggle to reconcile my feelings and relationship with.

Yvette Nicole Brown (19:49)

Coming up, we'll hear more about how Jonathan worked through those feelings and learned to set boundaries with his dad. That's after the break. We talked a little bit earlier about how most people that make this decision to care for someone, they're doing it as a reciprocal. It's like, you were good to me, I wanna be good back to you. Your situation was a little different. So was there ever a part of you that felt a little angry about the circumstances? Because when you were a kid, everything was about him. And now as you get older and you finally extricate yourself from that feeling of needing to be all that he needs you to be and you're caring for him sacrificially, everything is still all about him. Like, at what point is it about you and your wife and your kids and your dreams and what you want to do, did you ever feel that tug of like. And then also the guilt, the guilt.

Jonathan Hirsch (20:43)

That comes surely after that thought, oh my God, yes. And I think a lot of people listening to this will know that experience. And I Just want to say, you know, you don't owe anybody the full term of responsibility of care. Your choice to care for that person is yours and yours alone.

Yvette Nicole Brown (21:12)

Yes.

Jonathan Hirsch (21:12)

And I wish I had given myself that freedom earlier because I may have done the same things.

Yvette Nicole Brown (21:20)

Right.

Jonathan Hirsch (21:21)

But I think I felt weighted by that question because it was almost as if I wouldn't give myself that permission to say, you know what? Your life is your life.

Yvette Nicole Brown (21:34)

Right.

Jonathan Hirsch (21:35)

I will take you this far, but it's your. Beyond that, you're on your own, sir.

Yvette Nicole Brown (21:44)

Yeah.

Jonathan Hirsch (21:46)

I would never want him to be left without food or shelter or care.

Yvette Nicole Brown (21:52)

Right.

Jonathan Hirsch (21:53)

But beyond that, I think the rest of the decision to care for this person was a choice.

Yvette Nicole Brown (22:03)

What Jonathan's saying here is actually pretty radical. Caregiving is a choice we get. We can make sure our parents have food, shelter and safety, but we don't have to sacrifice everything we are. In the process, we can choose how much of ourselves to give. For Jonathan, one specific moment two years ago made this crystal clear.

Jonathan Hirsch (22:25)

We found out we were going to have our second child.

Yvette Nicole Brown (22:27)

Yep.

Jonathan Hirsch (22:28)

And I went to the facility to tell. To visit with Thomas. And, you know, he can't hear. He's had hearing aids for years. He keeps losing them. Even when he has them, he doesn't really hear very well. So they have this, like, little whiteboard with a pen, you know, like a. Like a Sharpie by the bed. And people can, you know, write questions and stuff, you know, so.

Yvette Nicole Brown (22:48)

Been there.

Jonathan Hirsch (22:49)

So I'm writing. I write this thing on the board, and it says, you know, we're. We're having another boy. And so I showed him that, and he had this reaction. He was like, oh, no.

Yvette Nicole Brown (23:08)

Wow.

Jonathan Hirsch (23:10)

Shock and fear.

Yvette Nicole Brown (23:12)

Wow.

Jonathan Hirsch (23:14)

And there was a part of me that just immediately recognized that that was how he felt about being a parent. That the layers and layers of responsibility and trauma that had been impressed upon this man over his lifetime, the things that he had seen, left him with a not so rosy view of parenting. And, you know, maybe just his temperament, his own narcissism that parenting got in the way of that. And so what felt like a moment of celebration and again, the sort of wish fulfillment of the child wanting to be seen by their parent in that moment, the adult child, and his reaction to it, so unequivocally different and irreconcilable from my own.

Yvette Nicole Brown (24:12)

Well, yeah, because it also takes. It kind of stomps on your joy in the moment. You know what I mean? Like, you're there to share this amazing news and from someone that if there's anybody that should be excited about this, it's the granddad. And the response. Yeah, like, I'm so sorry that happened because I could imagine that that would have been the straw for me. For me too.

Jonathan Hirsch (24:35)

Right.

Yvette Nicole Brown (24:37)

I'm just thinking through this process. How did you navigate that moment?

Jonathan Hirsch (24:44)

I think it gave me permission to not look back.

Yvette Nicole Brown (24:48)

Yeah.

Jonathan Hirsch (24:48)

And I needed that.

Yvette Nicole Brown (24:50)

That moment. Realizing his dad couldn't be happy about Jonathan's growing family was a turning point. Jonathan stopped waiting for validation that was never going to come. Instead, he turned towards the family that could actually love him back.

Jonathan Hirsch (25:04)

If anything, it made me feel more urgent about giving myself to my family and to the people I love in the same way that I would expect them to want to do for me, but that it was not, I was not owed that, that I earned that through my love and care for them and they for me. Yeah.

Yvette Nicole Brown (25:38)

So what does that look like on a daily basis? Because you have your wife, you have your job, you have your kids. So are you up making breakf in the morning or are you and your wife trading out on who's going to soccer practice? And describe a basic day, a day.

Jonathan Hirsch (25:52)

Where you're, yeah, sure, yeah, it's fun. No one's ever asked me that. But you know, I think I wake up, I'm an early riser, so I'm up at 5 o', clock, maybe 5, 15, make some coffee and get my baby's bottle ready. And he's usually up by 5:45. And you know, we have like, you know, 15, 20 minutes together. I have my coffee, he's got his milk, you know, and then we go for a walk in the morning.

Yvette Nicole Brown (26:23)

Lovely.

Jonathan Hirsch (26:24)

And at that point my older boy is up and my wife's usually not far behind, maybe 15 minutes. So we all have breakfast together. It's very regimented when you have kids at this age, you know. And then on the weekends it's the two of us tag teaming everything from karate to swim lessons to birthday parties and all the stuff in between, I.

Yvette Nicole Brown (26:46)

Realized that you said no one ever asked you that. And I'm so glad I did because you may not know this, but your entire countenance changed.

Jonathan Hirsch (26:54)

Oh really?

Yvette Nicole Brown (26:54)

When you talked about your time with your babies, you know, your time with talking about Thomas, you had an entirely different demeanor. And then you start talking about your boys, your boys and the dad that you are and everything about you changed. So I think they're so blessed to have you. I want to say that. Thank you.

Jonathan Hirsch (27:14)

Appreciate that. What do you See there, Rilka. A doggie. A doggie. That's on the next page. Hey, Rilka, is the doggie in a balloon? Yeah, he's a balloon. He's in a balloon. You know, I talked to the doggie about being in the balloon, and I asked him, do you like being in the balloon? Do you know what he said? Yeah.

Yvette Nicole Brown (27:42)

He'S waking.

Jonathan Hirsch (27:44)

He's waking the balloon. Yeah, he's waking the balloon. It's playing. Yeah, they're playing in the balloon. That's true. They're flying. Above Los Angeles. Good morning. Mountains surrounding la. Are we ready to share a wonderful day?

Yvette Nicole Brown (28:04)

Not long after we spoke with Jonathan, his father, Thomas, passed away peacefully at his care facility. He was 85 years old. Jonathan sent us this voice memo.

Jonathan Hirsch (28:14)

I have been really sad, but also I have a sense of relief, a sense that both he and I are no longer on this strange journey together and that maybe he'll have some peace after many, many years of suffering with his illness. And that I too, will be able to move on with my life, to focus on my family and on my career and my friends and everything that's important to me, my own life. I think it's easy to feel guilty that you feel that way. And I think a lot of caregivers probably feel some significant guilt around trying to reconcile their own needs with the needs of the person that they're responsible for. And a friend of mine encouraged me to embrace that relief. And I will say that was really helpful to me. So I hope some of your listeners give themselves some grace, because you can do your very best to care for somebody, but you also have to care for yourself.

Yvette Nicole Brown (29:21)

As caregivers, we don't have to. And frankly, we can't give all of ourselves to this work. I love how for Jonathan, that realization was freeing. He made sure Thomas was safe and cared for until the very end. But he stopped striving to be seen by a parent who was never really looking. Instead, he's pouring his energy into the family he's chosen. Where that Love Comes Back Squeezed is a Lemonada Media original. I'm your host, Yvette Nicole Brown, Lisa Fu and Hannah Boomershine are our producers. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Bobby Woody is our engineer. Our theme music is by Andy, Kristen's daughter, with additional music by APM Music. Jackie Danziger is our VP of Narrative Content. Executive producers are me, Yvette Nicole Brown, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and Stefan. This show was created in partnership with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, a leading national philanthropy dedicated to taking bold leaps to transform health in our lifetime and pave the way together to a future where health is no longer a privilege, but a right. Follow squeeze wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.