"Charlie at the Crossroads"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast: Episode Summary – "Charlie at the Crossroads"

Release Date: September 23, 2024

Host: Sean Hayden
Guest: Charlie Zuckerman, Senior at Boston Conservatory at Berkeley

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1. Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Charlie at the Crossroads," Sean Hayden delves deep into the challenges faced by emerging actors within the theater industry. This episode marks a significant departure from previous seasons by focusing on Charlie Zuckerman, a senior at the Boston Conservatory, who shares his firsthand experiences with summer stock programs and the detrimental impact they can have on young performers.

2. Meeting Charlie Zuckerman

[00:25] Sean Hayden: Sean introduces Charlie Zuckerman, highlighting his status as a senior student grappling with the harsh realities of summer stock jobs. Charlie becomes the focal point of this episode as he navigates the crossroads of his budding career and personal well-being.

[05:14] Sean Hayden: "Charlie was 23 years old at the time and in his senior year at the Conservatory."

3. The Allure and Reality of Summer Stock

[09:03] Sean Hayden: Sean probes into Charlie's initial expectations versus the grim reality of his summer stock experience.

[09:22] Sean Hayden: "There's something about getting that contract and then seeing the word actor on it, which kind of feels like, okay, I'm really an actor."

Charming the dream of honing his craft under the guidance of seasoned professionals, Charlie eagerly accepted a $200 weekly contract, anticipating a legitimate stepping stone into the acting world.

[09:58] Charlie Zuckerman: "Yeah, $200 a week. And I had to travel there, so not including gas."

4. Exploitative Labor Practices

Contrary to the promising start, Charlie's summer transformed into a nightmare of unpaid labor and abusive demands. Assigned tasks far beyond acting, he and his peers were subjected to exhaustive telemarketing efforts, manual labor, and other menial jobs without fair compensation.

[10:24] Charlie Zuckerman: "We were just servants for whatever they needed."

Notable Quote:
[11:12] Charlie Zuckerman: "Oh, it's absolutely insane."

The discrepancy between expectation and reality was stark, with Charlie working approximately 60 hours a week for a mere $200—a rate equating to roughly $3.33 per hour, drastically below minimum wage standards.

5. The Breaking Point

The turning point came during a donor event where Charlie and his peers were publicly demeaned and metaphorically "auctioned" off to donate their limited financial gains.

[14:16] Charlie Zuckerman: "It was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever experienced."

This dehumanizing experience solidified the collective sentiment among the interns that the exploitative conditions were untenable, leading to a silent agreement to distance themselves from such toxic environments in the future.

6. Personal and Professional Impact

Charlie's ordeal with summer stock not only drained his financial resources but also severely impacted his passion for acting. The relentless abuse normalized poor working conditions within the industry, leading him to question his career path.

[15:17] Charlie Zuckerman: "Is this what it's about? Is it just, like, suffering and just continue to suffer until it gets better?"

Sean reinforces this by sharing his own traumatic experience, illustrating a systemic issue within the theater industry where fear and exploitation are rampant.

7. Coping and Overcoming Trauma

Despite the deep-seated trauma, Charlie is actively seeking ways to reclaim his passion for acting. Engaging in workshops, seeking specialized mental health support, and slowly reintroducing himself to performance are steps he's taking towards healing.

[38:28] Charlie Zuckerman: "The little thought of, like, I don't need to be amazing."

[39:13] Sean Hayden: "This is a place for paying our dues, but when does that phrase kind of go too far?"

8. Future Aspirations and Reflections

As Charlie approaches graduation, he contemplates shifting his focus from acting to stage management—a role where he can foster a supportive environment for others, preventing them from experiencing the abuses he endured.

[35:01] Charlie Zuckerman: "I think I would like to try to get better at stage management."

This pivot signifies a proactive approach to creating change within the industry, ensuring that future generations of actors can pursue their dreams without enduring similar hardships.

9. Sean and Charlie’s Ongoing Dialogue

Sean expresses admiration for Charlie's bravery in sharing his story and encourages continued dialogue to inspire others to speak out against injustices in the industry.

[21:23] Charlie Zuckerman: "I did not want it to be like, young people, just, we want money immediately... but it is some aspect of the experience."

10. Conclusion and Takeaways

"Charlie at the Crossroads" serves as a compelling narrative on the pressing need for reform within the theater industry's labor practices. Through Charlie's journey, listeners gain insight into the systemic issues that plague young actors and the importance of advocacy and self-advocacy in combating exploitation.

Key Insights:

• Exploitation in Summer Stock: Young actors are often subjected to unfair labor practices under the guise of professional development.
• Mental Health Implications: The relentless pressure and abuse can lead to severe mental health challenges, including panic and anxiety disorders.
• Industry-Wide Change Needed: There’s a critical need for systemic changes to protect emerging talent and ensure fair treatment.
• Empowerment Through Storytelling: Sharing personal experiences is vital in bringing about awareness and fostering a community of support and change.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [11:02] Charlie Zuckerman: "Oh, it's absolutely insane."
• [14:16] Charlie Zuckerman: "It was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever experienced."
• [15:17] Charlie Zuckerman: "Is this what it's about? Is it just, like, suffering and just continue to suffer until it gets better?"
• [21:23] Charlie Zuckerman: "I did not want it to be like, young people, just, we want money immediately... but it is some aspect of the experience."

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Final Thoughts

This episode underscores the importance of speaking up against injustices and supporting one another in the performing arts community. Charlie Zuckerman's story is a testament to resilience and the enduring spirit of aspiring actors striving for change.

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For those interested in more in-depth discussions and exclusive content, consider joining the Stage Combat Community on Patreon. Access bonus episodes, extended interviews, and our companion series, "Just Acting," along with mental health-focused conversations essential for performers navigating the industry's challenges.

Transcript

[Sean Hayden]

If you're only listening to Stage the podcast, did you know you're only getting half the Stage Combat experience at Stage Combat at Patreon? You can listen to bonus content episodes with extended interviews from Stage Combat the podcast.

[Chris Webb]

I sat there and thought, why on earth is that an option? This can't happen. This is unsafe. We have an emergency.

[Sean Hayden]

But when they want you out, they do to make you leave, period. Don't kid yourself about it. I'll give you my own personal post show wrap up. If you have an investigation and the results are not made public, how does change happen? There's also our companion series, Just Acting, featuring Boston Conservatory at Berkeley professor of acting, Christopher Webb.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

What we need as a character, as an actor, is measured by the value of the loss.

[Sean Hayden]

I exploded when you texted that to me, but let's repeat it. So what's our answer, Chris? Does method acting suck? I'm gonna go with yeah. And you're gonna be a little more nuanced.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. I am nothing if not nuanced, Sean.

[Sean Hayden]

You'Re the king of nuance.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I am. I am the king of nuance.

[Sean Hayden]

It's like getting an acting lesson in your earpods. And there's the mental health pod, featuring provocative mental health conversations that you need to hear.

[Chris Webb]

I mean, I think of being a highly sensitive person as being a superpower. You have a greater awareness of your surroundings and an increased emotional connection.

[Sean Hayden]

People ask me, do you think bullying is worse in theater than in other professions? Yes, it's worse in my mind because actors define themselves by their identity. That's who we are. So what are you waiting for? Check us out and join the Stage Combat at Patreon Community. You'll find the link in the show notes. And now, on with the episode. So I have a question for you. When was the last time you felt like you were sitting at a crossroads in your life talking about where you knew there was something really big happening with you and your life? It could go in one of two different directions. For me, that day was October 12, 2019. I'm sitting on a sofa in East Hadam, Connecticut, in my housing at the Goodspeed Opera House. It's the morning after what was, let's just say, a very turbulent performance of Billy Elliot, the Musical, where I was working as an actor with another cast member named Chad. And Chad did something that was very dangerous in a stage combat sequence that involved myself and a child actor. When I told the stage manager afterwards about the safety issue, well, that stage manager threatened to fire me. And the next morning I'm sitting on that sofa and I'm actually being fired by the Goodspeed. They followed through on that threat and fired me over the phone. You might recall how we dramatized this in season two of this podcast.

[Stage Manager]

Sean. For the moment, we're not going to go into the reason we're giving you notice. And if there's more to come, we'll be in touch with your agent. At the end of the day, what I put you guys on notice about happened, and you did not do anything to try to prevent that from happening. You're entitled to your opinion, Sean, but rebuttal at this point is irrelevant.

[Sean Hayden]

And while I knew I was at some sort of crossroads during that call, I had no idea where it would lead. And if you told me during that call, Sean, in four years, you're going to be speaking to theater program students about this very phone call, about mental health and how those students can better protect themselves in the industry, I would have said, what are you even talking about? On this particular morning, I'm sitting in Tom's Diner for breakfast, watching a video on my phone. It's from October 27, 2023. And I'm visiting the campus of Boston Conservatory at Berkeley, where young theater performers are training for their careers. After this podcast came out that previous summer, I was thrilled when the Conservatory asked me to share my story with their students. That day at the Conservatory was a really special day, and it's also the day where I met student Charlie Zuckerman.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

So something that I have said I'm very vocal about, which may be bad, the summer stock. But I did it one summer, and it was horrible. I think I paid 200 a week because the worst. So, not that we have, like, I want to burn all summer stock to the ground.

[Sean Hayden]

Charlie was 23 years old at the time and in his senior year at the Conservatory. And what Charlie was talking about is the common practice of regional theaters to hire theater program students for their summer. They're usually hired under the description of interns or apprentices. And these students not only perform in the productions, but they can also be required to take on a lot of other responsibilities under grueling conditions, many times with very nominal wages. So I told Charlie and his classmates what I thought. There's a whole discussion about summer stock, and does it violate labor laws and the hours and the pay? I mean, this is tough. The skills that you get by working under abusive circumstances. I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? But I agree with you 100%, and I think you know what? This is going to be a podcast episode. Let me just make a note. Would you like to talk to me about that sometime?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Sure. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Okay. So two months before his graduation, Charlie and I scheduled what we call at Stage Combat, an exploratory conversation. It's where we do a pre interview with a guest for a few minutes to explore a potential topic, in this case, the abuses of summer stock programs when it comes to young artists, and to see if it can be developed into an episode. Charlie and I ended up talking for about an hour, and our conversation probably went places we didn't expect. We found Charlie to be so honest and exploring his own journey that we asked if we could feature our conversation with him as a standalone episode. And Charlie said yes. Just like that, a podcast episode was born. So here is my unfiltered conversation with one young man at the crossroads of his career and his life, trying to figure it all out. Like many of you, I'm Sean Hayden, and you're listening to episode six of season three of Stage Combat, Charlie at the crossroads. Okay, so I wanted to talk with you before you graduate, because I know at some point I want to do an episode about how shitty these summer stock jobs are. It's like, these are not good jobs. And I think that's sort of what I. I heard from you when I was there. We're doing the talk. So let me just ask you this. Where are you from?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I'm from Westport, Connecticut.

[Sean Hayden]

And then how did you choose Boston Conservatory?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, man. I applied to, like, all the schools. I did the classic thing. You do, like, 13 to, like, 20 schools. And then I got in, and I didn't think I would. And I think that surprised me. And I think that itself getting in, I was like, whoa, maybe I should take the leap. It.

[Sean Hayden]

Go ahead.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

All right, you go.

[Sean Hayden]

No, no, no, no. This is your time.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

There's something. Something about going to school for acting in such an intense environment that made me kind of step away from it. I think I want to like it again, but right now, it just. It feels hard to like it. So that can be tough.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And so before we go on with my conversation with Charlie, I did sense at that moment there was something going on with him. I didn't want to pry, so I kept the focus on his experience with summer stock. So let's talk about your summer stock job. Can you kind of tell me what that. Kind of, like, what your hopes and dreams were for that summer?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I was really excited. I had, like, a contract sent to me, it was very official.

[Sean Hayden]

What did it feel like having a contract sent to you as an actor?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, it feels so cool. After doing it as, like, a student and you finally get a contract, even though the number wasn't very big that I'd be paid, I was like, this is awesome. I'm doing it. I'm doing the thing.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. There's something about getting that contract and then seeing the word actor on it, which kind of feels like, okay, I'm really an actor.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, right? Yeah, it's so legit.

[Sean Hayden]

And so then what happened when you showed up for work? Well, let me ask you this. What did you think it would be?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I thought it would be. I knew it was a lot of work going in. I knew I wouldn't just be an actor, that I'd be doing other stuff, but I don't think what I realized is how much other stuff I'd be doing.

[Sean Hayden]

Do you remember what you were paid a week?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Two hundred a week.

[Sean Hayden]

$200 a week.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

$200 a Week. And I had to travel there, so not including gas.

[Sean Hayden]

And so were you living at home? They weren't providing you with housing?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, no housing. So everyone lived within the area. Some people drove an hour, hour 30. So I wasn't paying rent at the time.

[Sean Hayden]

So, Charlie, you arrive for work at this company, and what is your initial impression on sort of how this job is going to pan out?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I think it became very, very clear to me that I was there for much more than just being an acting intern. They had us doing stuff from the get go that was way beyond the scope of acting intern. And I thought I was there to, like, hone my craft. I was there to learn what it's like to be a professional actor. I was getting a professional director working with all these professionals, and the first thing that they have us do is telemarketing the whole first week.

[Sean Hayden]

Wait, like on phones?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

On phones. It's all of us spread out across the rehearsal studio for five days straight making phone calls to sell tickets.

[Sean Hayden]

Did they have a separate telemarketing team or you were it?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

We were it. It was us, the acting interns.

[Sean Hayden]

Wow. I mean, what I'm thinking, Charlie, is you told me you were making $200 a week.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I probably were, like, 60 hours a week.

[Sean Hayden]

Working 60 hours a week. So if I do the math, that's $3.33 an hour. So they have essentially telemarketers working for $3.33 an hour, which is way below minimum wage.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, it's absolutely Insane.

[Sean Hayden]

Wow.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

We were flabbergasted, for lack of a better word.

[Sean Hayden]

The acting interns. You guys were shocked that you were being asked to do that?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. We didn't know each other. This is day one. We're all looking at each other like, this is bullshit. By day five of doing that, we were like, this is really bullshit.

[Sean Hayden]

And so where did this all go, Charlie? Was there like one big event or one thing that they asked you to do that you guys were just saying, what the hell is going on?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Building the set was when it all kind of went down.

[Sean Hayden]

Do you have any experience in set building?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

No, I'm a handy person. I like to build things, but I'm not, you know, I have no degree. I haven't been trained by a carpenter. So no, I do not. We unloaded a 40 foot trailer full of wood panels that it was an outdoor stage. So full of wood panels that become the outdoor stage. Each of these is probably, I don't know, 50 to 100 pounds, depending on the one, maybe more. Everything being carried by two or three people for a whole day.

[Sean Hayden]

And what else were you asked to do?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, they asked us to do everything. We basically were just servants for whatever they needed. So there were three nine hour days of cleaning the studio. Most of my job that summer was manual labor. We did a little bit of acting and I was also working in the middle of the summer. It was so hot. People would like having to be having heat stroke backstage. I mean, there wasn't really a backstage, it was a tent. So I think we had fans, but there was no ac. I forget if the Equity tent. There was a separate tent for the Equity actors and I think they might have had AC in it, but we did not.

[Sean Hayden]

So it was really hot because you're non unionized workers. So there's really no rules or anything protecting you, right?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, there's no rules. During one of their donor events, we acted as waiters, kind of, or like wait staff. So like we set up all the tables and did this and that. And then at one point they brought us out, they lined us up and we set our names where we're from. And then the director or manager and director of the company was like, this is how much it costs to hire each of them for the summer. Who would like to pay for one? And it's like, do you want to pay for my summer here? It just felt very strange. It's hard to articulate it, how weird it was. And we all looked at each other because we're up Here in front of this crowd of people sitting at tables, eating their dinner, and we're all just like, okay, we can't move. We can't leave.

[Sean Hayden]

So they're donors, they're all being pampered, and they're dining and they line you guys up. And then what happens? Do people raise their hand to say, yeah, I want to buy one?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. People start raising their hands and they basically call on people. Until all of our summers are paid for, until we're all bought.

[Sean Hayden]

This feels like an auction.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

It was definitely auction esque. It was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever experienced. I was just texting someone about it and they were like, I will never, ever forget how uncomfortable it was being up there.

[Sean Hayden]

And did you start to have the feeling that you wish you hadn't taken the job?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. Collectively as a cast, there was a point where, like, it was after all this manual labor and this and that, the cast, we kind of bonded in a way where we were all like, no one's coming back here. It was kind of an agreement that we all made.

[Sean Hayden]

I think you said something along the lines of, when I met you at the conservatory, that. That summer, did it make you question what you were doing with your life and your career? I mean, how did that experience affect you?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, greatly. The thing that is talked about in school, and it's not perpetuated necessarily by teachers, but kind of the industry idea is you're in college, you do summer stock every summer. You keep building your resume. Build your resume, build your resume. And so I did this. Didn't make a lot of money, didn't have a great time. And I was like, is this what it's about? Is it just, like, suffering and just continue to suffer until it gets better? And I think it was very disheartening. Maybe a question. Is this what I'm going into? And is this actually what I want to do if it's going to be this bad every time?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. I've often talked about how, whether it's certain drama schools, I don't think your school is particularly this way. But when we condition actors at a young age that abusive practices or horrible work conditions are normal, we normalize that. And I think that sets us up to.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, to accept that behavior all through life.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

What are your thoughts about that?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I totally agree. It's really disheartening now to see my friends, who I am so fond of and think are wonderful performers, take jobs that are so bad. Last summer, someone took a job that Was a hundred dollars for the whole show, you know, a month of work.

[Sean Hayden]

So someone who is actually training, someone who is in school training, who has a certain skill set, Right?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. And this is a local Boston theater. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

You know, I think, too, there's a difference. You know, we all talk about, I think there's a place for paying our dues, but when does that phrase kind of go too far?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, I actually did want to bring this up because I didn't want it to be like, young people, just, we want money immediately, which is, you know, of course, that'd be nice. But there is some aspect of the experience. Right. Every time you do it, you gain more experience, you get better at the craft, and I think that's important. And in my sense, that's like paying your dues. But then sometimes it does feel like paying your dues is really like you're going to suffer, get no money after that. A lot of folks who are in these conservatory programs either paying for themselves or contributing, working with their parents, and then it's like, you can't take a summer stock job for 200 bucks a week. You can't live. And that's what paying your dues kind of feels like at that stage.

[Sean Hayden]

It's tough because I remember you asked me about this. I think you kind of said, what's my advice? Or something like that. I said, it's tough because I recognize that you have to have some credits. You need some credits to get out of school. Right. To move up maybe to a certain pile when you're auditioning. And yet I think the solution is we need to call out these summer programs just like we would call out if people were working in a factory and the conditions weren't safe, or people were working too many hours, or the hours are so long that people are having accidents or something like that. I don't think the solution is I just not going to do summer stock. Right. It's a tough position for someone like you to be in.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, it's hard because I want. I want the credits. Like, I want to have that super big resume. And I do want to make it clear, like, I do have financial support for my family at this point while being in college. So not enough to, like, get $200 a week and be fine, but. But I think a lot of kids have that cushion and can take the jobs. And so it's like, the love for it, having the support. Folks can do it. And as long as folks love doing it and can do it, I think students will just Continue, even if it's not great. And that's why what I'm so curious from you is, like, how to call them out. Because if there's always people who would take the job, in a way it feels like it'll never be fixed.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, I don't think this is anything that anyone has been talking about openly. Charlie. I did a summer stock. I was doing Mamma Mia. Down in North Carolina, and they had an intern program, conservatory, young adults like you. And they had those interns working around the clock. Rehearsals during the day, a main stage show at night, a cabaret show. After the main stage show, and I kid you not, before the half hour, they were in the parking lot wearing reflector vests, directing traffic into the parking lot before they went into the dressing room to get into makeup for the show.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, dang. Dang. I mean, that almost. I'm like, oh, my experience wasn't that bad. It's like, it just feels like free labor at that point. It's like, we want to be actors.

[Sean Hayden]

And I kind of wonder, like, do the people paying for those tickets in that instance, do you know that the person that you're seeing dancing on stage just directed your car in a reflector vest? And how do you feel about that?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Does that feel dignified to you? Does it feel dangerous to you? Even? Look at that.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. If you get hurt directing traffic, you know you've lost your performer because they're in the parking lot. Oh, that's so wild.

[Sean Hayden]

But I do think so many of these summer start programs, and I know all theaters are struggling and it's tough, but if it's being propped up on the backs of free labor, that wouldn't even pass labor laws in terms of what you're being paid per hour, Right.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. Yeah. It feels very like kind of being skirted around because it's kind of almost traditional. And so people haven't poked at the tradition yet.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And it's like the whole thing we've been talking about, mental health, things keep going the way they are because they've always been that way. So why should we change them? Rather than looking at. We should change them. Because the way that you have been doing things for decades has inflicted a lot of harm on people.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. This is kind of off topic, but the way that you called out and called in the theater that harmed you, it's just very brave. Because I was thinking of, like, could I speak up to this theater that I worked with? And in a way, like, I don't feel like I can or it would damage that relationship. But, like, do I actually care? I don't know. I've been conflicted with that, and I thought it was so brave of you to do that. And throughout the whole listening to the whole podcast, that's what I was like, bam. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Thank you. Well, Chris Webb and I, we were talking yesterday on another episode we were recording for the acting podcast, and we were acknowledging that the entire industry has been engineered on fear. The entire entertainment industry has been engineered. It is designed. It's based on fear. That's what keeps people in check, and that's what keeps the profits and the people at the top in power because there are so many more of us at the bottom with the actual talent. Right. But when the entire industry is engineered on fear, then it's very natural to say, well, what would be the repercussions if I came out and named a name or named a company? It's tough, particularly when you're so young. I mean, look, let's be fair. In my case, I hit such rock bottom after everything had happened, you know, there's a little bit I can say, well, fuck it. What else do I have to lose? At this point, I'm going to say what happened, but it took me several years to get there. So I understand it's not the same dynamic when you're younger. Although I do think, and I was talking about this to you guys when I met with you last fall, I do think people in your generation have a different view of how they deserve to be treated and are willing to speak out.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. I would agree with you that a lot of folks are saying more, or even if damage is done, work is being done to mitigate that. Where like, we just had. We worked with an intimacy choreographer outside of school, and everything was fine in the room. The energy was a little strange. And then afterwards, the whole cast kind of met together and was like, actually, we didn't feel great about that. Let's take steps to figure this out. So that's what I'm hopeful for. In an educational setting, it's a little easier.

[Sean Hayden]

The.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Really. The start of the career, quote, unquote, start of the career thing. That is scary.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, it's hard. Like, okay, let's just say if you went to that theater and you worked, and then you go out on your social media and you say, I worked at this place, and you name it and it was horrible, and this is the way we were treated, blah, blah, blah, then what happens? What is our fear? That theater says, don't hire Charlie or whomever, because he's a troublemaker. And what you were really doing was calling out a harmful practice so that people could maybe make a more educated decision whether they would take that job at that place the next summer.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I said to someone who was auditioning, I said, I don't think you should do it from school the next summer. And they were like, no, I'm going to try it out. I'm going to see how it goes.

[Sean Hayden]

I mean, we can look at it and say, yeah, that was bad, but maybe it'll be different when I'm there. Right. Maybe just Charlie or Sean. There was just something about them and they didn't like it, but it'll be different when I'm there. I think that's what we do a lot.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's like I said earlier, I want to act. We want to act. And those opportunities don't always come. If I got a call from the Goodspeed, I mean, prior to listening to your podcast, I would. I would have been like, holy shit, this is a. This is a fucking huge opportunity.

[Sean Hayden]

Which is why it's funny, Charlie. That's what I said when I got the call.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Exactly. Yeah. Quoting that episode. Yeah. And it's also disheartening. I've been using that word a lot, this chat because I grew up sort of with the Goodspeed, and I would go and see shows. It's Connecticut home state, and Billy Elliot was actually the show that got me into performing because I saw it in London when I was a wee lad.

[Sean Hayden]

We lad.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

We lad. And so to like to hear that and be like, oh, this theater that I go to and have supported, all this shit is going down. I was pissed. I haven't been back in a long time. But it's just like, all the things that we're working for in conservatory, these big theaters, these big names are still fucking up. And not treating people well is just such. Such a bummer.

[Sean Hayden]

Talking about that theater.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And I think the other value of hearing a story like that for someone like you, young in your career, is that it impresses upon you that, hey, that kind of stuff is not okay. And I think it might make you ask yourself, could you stand up for yourself in that situation.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, I'm thinking that it's.

[Sean Hayden]

What are you thinking?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

That I want to say that I would. And I would stand up, but it's always hard in the moment.

[Sean Hayden]

I think that's the honest response, like.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Because it's such a strange. Yeah, I keep talking about the podcast, but because in, in listening to the episodes, it's, it's in hindsight, like there's been time to look at it and the way that you present it is, is like in a theatrical murder mystery way. But then I took a moment when I wasn't listening and I paused and I was like to actually be in the room when this happened, that feeling where like everything kind of sucks in. It's like, oh, ooh, ooh. I don't know what to do right now. Like in moments like that, it's so difficult.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, it's tough. And I think it becomes tougher when we don't have the people that we were looking up to looking over the situation, taking care of the situation, which so much of that podcast story was. Where was the leadership? Where was the leadership? Where was the leadership?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

But I guess the lesson from it is that it's not always going to be there. Right.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

It's the more I get closer to this professional leap, the more I hear stories of leadership failing, which saddens me but also invigorates me in a way. This is kind of why I'm stepping away from acting in a way because it's like I've been doing more stage management and I think I'm pretty good at it. And I'm like, if I can be a stage manager that can support someone when I didn't have support or my friends didn't have support, like if I can be in that role for a little bit, I would rather do that and help other folks. I'm not going to say I'm going to be perfect at it, but like, I don't know a way to change it than being an actor. A different approach.

[Sean Hayden]

So let me ask you about that. So you are going to step away from acting, do you think, or.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I don't know. It feels like it. It feels very hard. I mean, the last time I acted was in a 10 minute scene last fall, which I guess in acting terms is a long time. It's a couple months. So to go to auditions feels very scary now. And even acting in class feels very scary or very intense. Intense. So I will see post grad, but I think for a while I won't be auditioning. Like gung ho auditioning. I'll kind of maybe here and there. We're very selective.

[Sean Hayden]

I guess that's a result of more than just your summer stock program, right?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

That's what conservatory is about, right? To find out what it is you want to do. In the performing arts. It doesn't have to be being an actor. Right.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

It feels like that for so long because that's like, you graduate high school and it's, I'm gonna be an actor. Time to go to conservatory.

[Sean Hayden]

That's the road that you've been on.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, that's the path. And then just realizing along the way that it's. It's not as. I mean, the rose colored glasses come off and that's part of growing up. It's like, I don't know. Broadway, when you're little is this beautiful, glorious cake that I just. We want to eat the whole thing. And then now it seems like a rusty old pipe.

[Sean Hayden]

But it can.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Can I ask you a question?

[Sean Hayden]

Of course.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I forget if you've mentioned this in recent episodes, but have you performed since Billy Elliot?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, I did last fall. There was a company in Maryland and asked me to come down and do. They're playing our song. And so it was nice that someone I had worked with asked me to come down and I did that. And I sang. I did it. I think it was more checking off the box to say, okay, I have the skills. I can still do it. Goodspeed didn't take away my skill set to do it. And then, you know, it's up to me if I want to do anything with it after that. Why do you ask?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Well, I guess because it's like, because you were able to do it. Was that reassuring or did it really still feel like this is. This is a muscle in my body and I'm doing it, but it's not. It's not as fun as it used to be? I don't want to put words.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, well, look, I mean, if you listen to the podcast, you know, there were times where I would open my mouth to sing and I would get sick to my stomach. Right. And I was stuttering. I mean, so there were so many physical things that had happened. So I attribute all of that to what happened at that Connecticut theater. So it was very important for me to prove that I could do it. I don't know if I felt doing it. You know, it's not like Norma Desmond's triumphant return to the stage in Sunset Boulevard. I've come home at last. But it was to be able to say, look, I had some skills before I worked at the Connecticut Theater, and I think I still have them now. I did feel going back to my acting class because I was talking to you guys about my acting class. I felt that kind of joy and passion as an actor.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I asked because it's. You went through such a. For lack of a better word, traumatic experience. And while I haven't gone through something like that, I'm trying to find kind of like a path. A path back in. Or even, like, what you were saying is, I feel a need that I want to prove to myself that I have the skills. I've been. I've been on this Runway about to take off for four years, and to get to the end of the Runway and be like, I'm going to throw this all in the trash. It's like, I want to be able to kind of find that way back in, to use these skills. Like, I can sing, I can act. I've been learning these things. Well, it's in a way that you say, claim your story. I kind of want to feel like, claim my. My power as a performer.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, let me ask you this. What if it's not just the summer stock experience? What is it that you think that, in some way, is keeping you from really feeling passionate and safe with acting and singing?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I think a big part was the feeling of panic when performing, because it started to associate those two things.

[Sean Hayden]

Where.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Like, I would start to sing and everything would go numb. And then it's like, if this is what it feels like to do it in front, especially in front, like, I can do it alone, but in front of people, if my body's gonna go numb, I'm gonna lock up. Like, I. And, yeah, I started getting scared of it, and so it's like, the association was too clear.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. So that's really what's at the heart of it. The panic. Right.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, see, I am a big believer. Look, you heard how bad it was in my story, and I don't have panic attacks anymore. So we had another story with another Broadway actor, Kalyn, in this season that because of her injury, and she was starting to have panic. I mean, this is a very common thing that we get as performers, and I do believe, and I told Caitlin, this panic can be managed. I think you just need to find the right mental health professional to help talk to you and get to the root of that and then give you some tools on how to manage it when those symptoms start coming on.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. I think my. I mean, as of now, my plan post grad is find someone who specializes for folks in performing. And it's actually been really helpful because in the podcast, you have folks like that. Yeah, yeah. Who's who. Like, really specifically understand. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Because it helps because they. What we do is so Unique. So it helps to have someone that knows the vocabulary or what we're being asked to do in our jobs, which is different than, say, if you work at an office.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. You're not. You're not crying and singing at the desk in the office, you know?

[Sean Hayden]

But the fact that you're asking that question tells me that maybe there's still that desire, or at least you want to try to kind of just see what's there before walking away from it once and for all.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. It feels like I've loved it for too long to say goodbye so fast.

[Sean Hayden]

Mm. Then you owe it to yourself, right?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

So sitting here right now, I'm just. Do you mind me asking you, what do you think you'll do after you. Once you graduate? Because you're going to graduate in a couple months.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

A couple months? I think I want to stay in Boston.

[Sean Hayden]

And then what kind of jobs would you pursue, do you know?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I think I would like to try to get better at stage management. I've been honing my props, building and whatnot. I've been doing a lot of it recently for a couple student productions. And I'm, you know, I'm no professional, but I'm getting okay at it. I think those two things I'm going to try to dive into, maybe work for the school. Just. I don't know. I know how it works, and it'd be kind of a smooth transition into more being a real adult.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, that sounds good.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

If I gain the confidence and the fear starts to go away, Definitely trying to perform if the stars align.

[Sean Hayden]

I've really enjoyed this conversation with you, Charlie, and what I'd like to do, if you're open to this, is I would love to check back in with you after you graduate, see how you're feeling about things. And I'd like to do a whole episode that's just this conversation.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, sure. Yeah. No, I'm open to that. Sure. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. Thank you.

[Sean Hayden]

That's awesome. Good. I want to thank you for sharing so much.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Just because we're all on our journeys at different ages, and we're all trying to figure it out.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Two months later, Charlie Zuckerman woke up for his graduation day.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Good morning. It is 9:23 on May 11, the day of graduation. Currently running around the apartment, cleaning up.

[Sean Hayden]

At a commencement ceremony featuring Broadway legend Lachanze. Looking out at all of you graduates, I can't help but think that each.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Of you are exactly where you are supposed to be in this very moment.

[Sean Hayden]

The graduates celebrated as their tassels were turned as a symbolic gesture of the receipt and acceptance of your awards. Please turn your tassel from left. Later, Charlie and I caught up with each other. Hey, Charlie.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Hi.

[Sean Hayden]

How are you?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I'm okay. Slash, well, depending on the day. Yeah, but I'm good. How are you?

[Sean Hayden]

Well, I'm good, but you seem a little. What's going on with you today?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Well, graduation. I feel like it just. You kind of drive off of the cliff and then your car or whatever you're driving doesn't have a parachute. So I've been, like, kind of in limbo and feeling, I think, like, missing routine, honestly, and missing, like, seeing the same people every day.

[Sean Hayden]

It's a big change.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

It's a huge change. Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

So I want to ask you because, you know, when we talked a couple months ago, you were wondering whether or not you even wanted to pursue acting. So where are you on that?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Where am I on that? I think I still want to.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, that's sort of a big change from where you were a couple months ago.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. I was very like, nope.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Something that's been really helping is after showcase.

[Sean Hayden]

Can you explain to everyone what showcase is?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

The school invites kind of anyone. Any agents in New York who will come? We all get up there, we do a minute 30 of a song and then sit back down. So it's brief.

[Sean Hayden]

Did you sing?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I did sing.

[Sean Hayden]

Did you have any panic?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I didn't have panic. I didn't perform as well as I wanted, I think because I had bodily nerves, but it wasn't the same intensity. I was able, like, not push it down, but I think I was able to kind of accept what's going on and try to roll with it.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, that's good, Charlie.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

And so what happened from the showcase?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

I had one agent response. I had to film a little audition for this agency.

[Sean Hayden]

That's good that the agent wanted you to send in a self tape with more material after seeing you perform live.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

And I started to have those feelings, that, like, little voice, which kind of is like the start of the panic for me of, like, the. You're not good enough and, like, that voice starts to create the physical sensation. And even if I felt a little nervous, I still. It didn't. It didn't shut me down, which previously it would have. It was pretty good. Like, really my goal for showcase was, like, do it perform without having feelings of panic. And, like, I accomplished that.

[Sean Hayden]

You did. And then you actually had an agent who was interested in you.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So it kind of, like, that kind of feels great.

[Sean Hayden]

It does feel great, and you should embrace that. And I think you are.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

I mean, Charlie, what you were talking about, you know, that little voice. I think for most people, that little voice never goes away. I hear that voice sometimes when I'm putting together a podcast episode. It's like, am I doing this right? Am I respecting the story? And then I've learned to listen to my voice, and that voice guides me. It's like. It's like your gut is telling you, oh, you know what that voice is doing? It's telling me to fix this and to do this. It's guiding me. I may not want to face that voice sometimes, but if I go towards it, it will lead me.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. There's something we've kind of. My friend group has been talking about called Cringe Mountain. Where.

[Sean Hayden]

What is that?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Cringe Mountain is. I mean, sometimes you'll watch something and you'll be like, oh, my God. Like, how. How did they. How did they film this? Like, how did they all agree to do this? This is insane. It's like I'm crying of how cringy this is. But there's something about that where you need to climb Cringe Mountain sometimes to get where you want to go. And it's like one of those tools in my toolbox of when things start to feel a little too much is like, gotta climb Cringe Mountain. Because it's gonna. Because you'll make it to the other side.

[Sean Hayden]

So I'm wondering, have you had any sort of revelations since we last talked?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Something that kept coming up at the end of the year was that I don't have to be good. Kind of like there's no right way to do it.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

And I started to kind of remind myself as much as I could going up to the end of the year that I don't need to be the best. I don't need to be amazing. I just. To do it truthfully.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Even if that might not be even my own idea of what my best work is, it's like, whatever I bring that day, I'm not always 100% on that. But, like, that. That little thought of, like, I don't need to be amazing.

[Sean Hayden]

Well. And it may be what we're judging amazing to be that this idea where you go in and you stick the landing versus can we present our authentic self? And are we working to know what our authentic self is? Right. Anything else you want to say?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Anything else I want to say it's been so nice chatting. And I really. I appreciate you taking the time and your interest in me in this transitional time. It's nice. Even having this conversation is a nice reflection just for me to clock, like, where I was in March and where I am now. And that's. It's not that far apart, but, like, how much can change with. Since we spoke. Little. Little things to do every day. I started a gratitude journal, just like, little things to try to help.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

And now being out of school and. Yeah, it's. It's. This has been a very nice bookmark, kind of marking that time.

[Sean Hayden]

Good. And maybe we'll have to do another one of these episodes. See where you are in, you know, a year or whatever. Whatever happens in your life, I'm sure.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

It'Ll be a lot different in a year. Oh, that's crazy to think about.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, but just think where you were two months ago. Anything's possible in a year.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah. Oh, geez. Well, that's another bridge to cross.

[Sean Hayden]

Pretty exciting though, right?

[Charlie Zuckerman]

It's scary. It's exciting. It's. It's good. Scary, but good.

[Sean Hayden]

Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat.

[Chris Webb]

I'm imagining being labeled as a sexual predator. I'm imagining being seen as abusive. I'm imagining never making theater again. I'm imagining losing all of my friends. And I'm feeling just. I'm feeling terror and shame. And I'm basically just telling myself there's no way to make anybody believe me. And I just. I get to a really dark place.

[Sean Hayden]

How do you have an impartial and fair investigation without interviewing the accused? You don't. You don't have one. It's. These investigations are done primarily for the benefit and only benefit of the employer, not the employees. It's not to provide any indicia of truth or a verdict of what had happened. It's not that at all. That's coming up on episode seven of Stage Combat. You're under investigation. Laura's story. You know, the conversation doesn't have to end here. Hear part of my chat with the students at Boston Conservatory that you heard about at the beginning of Charlie's story. I believe you guys really want to change the status quo. And everyone in this industry is so fearful in saying that it keeps perpetuating. And this is. Happens anytime. Anytime we're going against someone who's more powerful or institution that's more powerful than us, and they're aware of that power and they prey on that power. I would say some people enjoy that power. So our fight is we have our fight cut out for us.

[Charlie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Plus I'll be giving you my own personal post show wrap up of this episode at Patreon. You can get your backstage pass and enjoy exclusive content such as our companion series Just Acting and the Mental Health Pod. Right now, our Patreon members are enjoying a new episode of the Mental Health Pod and my conversation with Bridget McCarthy with the association of Mental Health Coordinators.

[Chris Webb]

And then I'll bring dramaturgy to the folks who are doing the thing. And I'll say, here's what bipolar disorder with psychotic features looks like. Here's what it doesn't look like. I hate there's this thing that I've lovingly termed general crazy. I'm not a fan of that term, but it just means like just watching someone act their version of crazy and I don't like.

[Sean Hayden]

Right?

[Chris Webb]

So that we don't have to do that. We can say every symptom is trying to meet an unmet need.

[Sean Hayden]

Just follow the link in the show notes to join the Stage Combat community over at Patreon. And remember, if you believe in the work we're doing at Stage Combat and our advocacy to try to bring about real change in the industry, your membership at Patreon is what will enable us to continue to do that work. We simply can't do it without you. A reminder. The information in this podcast is not medical advice, so please seek the advice of a medical or a mental health professional. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith, mixing and sound design wore by Justin Gerrish and it was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions llc. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review us on your podcast platform. We would love to hear from you as well. Send us a DM on Instagram, Tage combatt the podcast IG or an email to stagecoach combat the podcastmail.com and don't forget, you can also sign up for the Stage combat [e-mail] I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions, llc.