"Loving Someone Traumatized By The Industry"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast – Episode: "Loving Someone Traumatized By The Industry"

Release Date: December 31, 2024

Hosts and Guests:

• Sean Hayden: Host of Stage Combat The Podcast
• Eddie: Actor who shared his traumatic experience working on Broadway’s "Wicked"
• Tony: Eddie’s husband, providing personal insights into supporting a partner through trauma
• Ian: Sean Hayden’s husband
• Carol: Ian’s mother
• Dr. Michelle Sherman: Clinical Psychologist and co-author of "Loving Someone with a Mental Illness or A History of Trauma"

---

1. Personal Struggles and Emotional Impact

The episode opens with a heartfelt conversation between Sean Hayden, Eddie, and other family members discussing the profound emotional toll Eddie's traumatic experience in the theater industry has had on his personal life.

• Eddie’s Termination from "Wicked":

  • [04:26] Eddie describes his abrupt termination from "Wicked" as a "gut punch," leading to intense emotional distress:

    "I walked out of there in a daze, and I came home and I sat on the couch and I bawled... I don't think I cried as hard like that since my mom had passed away."

• Impact on Family:

  • [03:42] Sean mentions that Eddie's trauma didn't just affect him but rippled through their entire family:

    "We were deprived of you... when you're in bad shape, Ian’s in bad shape. Of course, and when Ian's in bad shape, I'm in bad shape."

• Tony’s Perspective as a Supportive Partner:

  • [05:16] Tony shares his anguish watching Eddie navigate his trauma:

    "It was really a terrible experience... to watch all this subversive action being taken against him and to see him not understand why?"

2. The Ripple Effect of Workplace Trauma

Sean Hayden emphasizes that trauma from the workplace extends beyond the individual, affecting spouses, children, and extended family members.

• Ian’s Reflection on Trauma:

  • [04:26] Ian introduces the concept of trauma's broader impact:

    "My story was the first of many... what happens when someone is traumatized by an employer."

• Dr. Michelle Sherman’s Insights:

  • [19:50] Dr. Sherman underscores the importance of recognizing the emotional toll on family members:

    "They are at higher risk for developing emotional problems themselves because the challenges of loving someone with a mental illness or trauma are significant."

3. Coping Strategies for Loved Ones

The discussion delves into practical strategies for partners and family members to support someone dealing with trauma.

• Maintaining Presence:

  • [27:50] Dr. Sherman advises maintaining a supportive presence without pushing:

    "Maintain presence, meaning don't walk away... let your loved one know that you're there."

• Setting Healthy Boundaries:

  • [32:08] She emphasizes the necessity of setting limits to preserve one's own mental health:

    "Does not excuse or condone or rationalize or abusive behavior... you deserve to be treated with respect."

• Seeking Support:

  • [28:07] Encouraging loved ones to connect with support networks:

    "Connect with other people... seek support for yourself... even if you feel guilty."

4. Overcoming Stigma and Encouraging Therapy

The episode highlights the barriers to seeking mental health care and the importance of overcoming stigma.

• Addressing Stigma:

  • [35:24] Dr. Sherman suggests reframing the conversation around mental health to reduce stigma:

    "Everyone wants to sleep better, everyone wants to feel better... talk to the doctor about your sleep."

• Practical Support:

  • [36:31] Sean stresses the importance of helping loved ones navigate the barriers to accessing care:

    "Offering help to overcome obstacles is really key."

5. The Industry’s Responsibility and Ripple Effects

A critical examination of how the theater industry’s mistreatment of artists leads to widespread consequences.

• Impact Beyond the Individual:

  • [39:02] Dr. Sherman points out that trauma affects not just the individual but their entire support system:

    "The ripple effects can be so great and so many ways in terms of their well-being."

• Call for Industry Awareness:

  • [39:51] Tony challenges the industry to recognize and address the extensive damage caused:

    "Is our industry not recognizing not only the damage that we're doing to artists, but forgetting that every time you damage an artist, there is a ripple effect?"

6. Conclusion and Forward Look

The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of acknowledging and addressing the broader impacts of workplace trauma and a preview of upcoming topics.

• Acknowledgment and Support:

  • [42:40] Sean and Tony toast to the resilience of those who have stood up against industry mistreatment:

    "A toast to you for the new year, for standing up and making it to the other side."

• Upcoming Discussions:

  • [43:09] A teaser for the next episode focusing on union trust and support:

    "In the next episode of Stage Combat, the podcast Sean has questions for the union."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Eddie on His Termination:

  "[04:26] 'It was a gut punch. It was literally a gut punch... I don't think I cried as hard like that since my mom had passed away.'"

• Tony on Supporting Eddie:

  "[05:16] '...he loves to perform and see him not understand why?'"

• Dr. Michelle Sherman on Family Impact:

  "[19:50] '...family members... at higher risk for developing emotional problems themselves...'"

• Dr. Sherman on Setting Boundaries:

  "[32:08] '...does not excuse or condone or rationalize or abusive behavior... you deserve to be treated with respect.'"

• Tony on Industry Responsibility:

  "[39:02] 'Is our industry not recognizing not only the damage that we're doing to artists, but forgetting that every time you damage an artist, there is a ripple effect?'"

---

Final Thoughts: "Loving Someone Traumatized By The Industry" is a poignant exploration of how trauma stemming from the performing arts industry affects not only the individuals directly involved but also their loved ones. Through personal stories and expert insights, the episode underscores the necessity for broader industry accountability and the importance of supportive relationships in healing and resilience.

For more episodes and to engage with the Stage Combat community, visit Stage Combat on Patreon, follow us on Instagram @stagecombatthepodcast, or email us at [e-mail].

Transcript

[Carol]

Well, it hasn't been easy. It's been hard, partially, to watch you go through all of this.

[Sean]

And you couldn't come to my house for Easter. You know, it affected me that way when I wanted you to come home for holidays. And that means a lot to me to have you guys with me for holidays. And you weren't able to do that. So that's how it affected me.

[Eddie]

I wasn't able to do it because.

[Sean]

You weren't able to do it because you may have just been not feeling like going anywhere.

[Eddie]

I was in bad shape.

[Sean]

You were in very bad shape, yeah.

[Ian]

And that would be me, Sean, along with my husband, Ian, and his mother, Carol, my mother in law, in conversation a little over a year ago, we were reflecting on the events at the Goodspeed Opera House and my own personal story and how that affected not only me, but us as a family.

[Carol]

I think it was more that you just did not want to socialize. You were not in a position to talk to people, to go anywhere, to do anything.

[Sean]

Right, yeah. That's how it affected us. It affected us because we were deprived of you. The one time you came. You came for that one holiday on the very day and left on the very day just to have brunch with me. And, you know, I appreciated that, but I know that was difficult for you.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Because back at that time, that's all I could do.

[Sean]

Right. And, you know, when you're in bad shape, Ian's in bad shape. Of course. And when Ian's in bad shape, I'm in bad shape.

[Eddie]

I mean, you know, Ian's one of these people that's very stoic and like a rock. But you know him, Carol.

[Tony]

You know how having to live through.

[Eddie]

This and the frustration and the anger.

[Tony]

You know, how that's affected him. And he won't.

[Eddie]

He won't come out and wear it on his sleeve. I knew what he was going through.

[Tony]

You know, it was tremendous.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Oh, yeah.

[Tony]

You know, it's.

[Sean]

No, but I knew what he was going through when you were going through this.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I know it's hard when you know that your own husband is going through something where none of this had to have happened. You know, that was. That was hard, you know, to. Look, we've been together 15 years, but, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking, this is not what you signed up for. I didn't want you to go through any of this, you know, well, look.

[Carol]

What are you going to do? That's life, right?

[Eddie]

I mean, this is what you don't I know.

[Sean]

Hey, he signed up for you. He signed up for you.

[Carol]

And that's exactly. I mean, these are things that happen in life, and nobody.

[Tony]

I know.

[Eddie]

But this is what you think.

[Carol]

Yes. That's what you think, right?

[Eddie]

This is what you think. And it's like, this is not fair.

[Tony]

To you.

[Eddie]

To have a partner or a husband that's in so much pain. I mean, that's just my. That's what I was feeling at the time. And I'm sure a lot of people in the same position do, too.

[Carol]

It doesn't mean that I wasn't angry. It doesn't mean that there weren't days when I wasn't frustrated and I was tired of hearing about the Goodspeed. But you don't get to pick and choose what your experiences are going to be. You deal with what you get, and I think you've dealt with it well. But, yeah, I mean, there's good days and there were bad days, so.

[Ian]

My story was the first of many stories told in this podcast of what happens when someone is traumatized by an employer. We heard the stories of Brett, Brad, Pamela, Makee, Kaylin, Laura, and of course, Eddie, the actor we introduced you to in November in episode 10, another wicked story. It was a story that so many of you responded to as you heard Eddie's account of how he was traumatized while working on Broadway in the blockbuster musical Wicked, and how he was ultimately blindsided by his termination from the production.

[Eddie]

It was a gut punch. It was literally a gut punch. I walked out of there in a daze, and I came home and I sat on the couch and I bawled. Like, just gut. Like, I don't think I cried as hard like that since my mom had passed away.

[Ian]

But there's also another part of Eddie's story that we haven't talked about.

[Tony]

Hi, Eddie. It's nice to see you again back on stage Combat.

[Eddie]

Thank you, Sean.

[Tony]

Your episode caused quite a little kerfuffle. How do you feel about that?

[Eddie]

It's good. Let the kerfuffle fuffle.

[Tony]

But we also have here your husband, Tony, who I'm finally getting to meet. Hi, Tony.

Hi, Sean. Nice to meet you.

What was it like for you to watch your partner, your husband, go through what Eddie says he went through while working at Wicked?

It was really a terrible experience. Honestly, it was extremely frustrating watching my husband, who always loved, from the second he booked that show, he loved his job. He loves to perform. And to watch all this subversive action being taken against him and to see him not understand why? Knowing now that they were making up lies about him, it just. I feel like he probably every day was nervous about going into that theater when all of this was going down, because I don't think he knew what to expect. Meanwhile, that sincere performer that Eddie is and all the integrity he carries about that was being tested, and he managed to somehow maintain his professionalism during all of it, while I was, like, freaking out inside.

[Ian]

I'm Sean Hayden, and you're listening to episode 13 of. Of season three of stage, the podcast Loving Someone Traumatized by the industry.

[Tony]

And in the episode, Eddie, you remember, you conveyed that after you were terminated, you went home, and I believe your words were to the effect that you just bawled and bawled. And so for you, Tony, to see. That's a lot of pain. That's a lot of pain there. What was that like for you to watch that, Tony?

Well, I think back to the night that it happened.

Which night are you talking about?

The night that he was fired. The night that he was released. Yeah, I remember it was a Friday night. And I remember that the phone rang and I answered it because it was really weird for anybody calling me after 10:30. And he said to me, I just got fired. And I sat straight up, you know, in my dark room, and I said, what? And he, you know, he repeated it again. He said, I just got fired from my job. And I instantly began to cry. I just couldn't believe my ears. And I was an absolute wreckage because I was so sad for him and so sorry because I knew that this was going to be something that was going to last a long time in terms of the pain and the emotional weight of it, I knew it wasn't going to be just a quick, oh, I'm okay, you know, next day. This was going to be a journey. I was in another town completely. And so I couldn't even hug him or hold him or be there in support. And I had a whole weekend's worth of work, so I couldn't go back home. It hurt my heart so deeply. It hurt my heart to hear him, because Eddie loves being on stage and performing and doing this. It's all he wanted to do. And, you know, the fact that he got to do it in Wicked and the fact that he made it into that show through a chorus call, those were amazing moments in his life. And to just have it pulled away in the blink of an eye. And most of all, there's a sense of unfairness that still exists in my mind and in this. And that's probably the most difficult part to reconcile within myself is that feeling of. I think unfairness is just. Generally is a difficult feeling to reconcile.

And after the episode came out, I mean, Tony, my first introduction to you personally was a social media post that you wrote in response. Do you mind if I read this social media post?

Go ahead.

You wrote, this is after listening to the podcast episode. For years, my husband buried this trauma and moved forward without looking back. I wholeheartedly support his decision to come forward about his experience at Wicked. They lied about him, slandered his name and reputation, and tried to crush his spirit. Little did they realize that they do not and never had the power to accomplish such an evil mission. And you also expressed some misgivings with Actor's Equity. You thought that Actor's Equity felt to protect him. And you said your husband survived and came out the other side a successful, powerful, brave human willing to stare his fears in the face and speak the sad truth of having your biggest dream transformed into a heartbreak. Eddie, this is affecting you right now. What are you feeling?

[Eddie]

I mean, it's just. It's been a lot the past. What has it been, even, like, two months since we've started Open this can of worms? And I. I myself am working with a therapist through all of these and unpacking all of this and finding words for my emotions. And the biggest thing for all this is why it was so difficult, your back is that when you're the lead of a story and you're in it, you actually don't know what the story is. And you took my story and told it back to me, and I was able to hear what I actually went through as opposed to just doing it. You know what I mean? I. It was almost like I was in denial of how bad it was to continue to work.

[Tony]

Yeah.

Yeah. I had the same way when I told the Goodspeed story, and it was.

[Eddie]

Like it was worse than I thought it was.

[Tony]

The power of. When you put it in narrative form, in a podcast form, it really has its own power that can take even the storyteller by surprise.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And I'm just. I'm just so very grateful to have the support I have in my husband. So having him speak about me is just very humbling and very grateful for the love that I get to share with him, so.

[Tony]

And, Tony, you mentioned a couple of times how much Eddie loves to perform, and there was a scene in the podcast episode where Eddie talked about when he went into an audition for Waitress.

[Eddie]

I had a callback for Waitress, and I Went in. It was the last callback I had. And I was like, I don't like this anymore. I don't think I can do this. What I loved for so long, I feel like I had to walk away from this. And I kept having this thought of, like, I can't believe that I have spent my entire life and so much energy and so much love into this, and I'm just going to drop it all. Like, I'm just going to walk away from it. Like, everything that defined me as an.

[Tony]

Artist, that must have been difficult to hear.

To watch. The way that the ending of that job changed his passion was not anything I could have ever foreseen.

What was that like for you to watch that change?

It was. It's sad. It was really sad for me because, you know, one of the things, I don't know, I'm sure Eddie told you, but, you know, when we first met, he was in a production of Footloose, of which I was choreographing. Right.

Okay. He did not tell me this story.

[Eddie]

This is exclusive content.

[Tony]

So my first introduction to Eddie was as a performer. So to see that passion wane and dwindle and just kind of drain away.

And to see that happen in the.

Person you love, to see it happen to him. So, again, it was really difficult to watch that, especially knowing that he didn't really choose that. It was kind of thrust upon him and he just was sort of dealing with the situation that he was thrust into.

And, Tony, what was it like for you in terms of. To the extent you're comfortable speaking about it, your own mental health as you're watching this and the person you love, and also the resentment, the anger, the hurt, what was that like for you?

Challenging, to say the least. Going back to my social media post, you know, I think that the trauma was so big that Eddie really had no choice but to just put it behind him and move forward and wait for the ability to fully process this. So for me, I knew that eventually he was going to have to process it, but I knew that it wasn't up to me to force the issue or to say, you know, you should get a therapy. You should go into therapy. I found myself feeling, most importantly, to give him space, to give him the space that he needed to feel things if he was not in a good way or feeling depressed or especially right after the job ended and he wasn't sure what he was going to do. That was extremely challenging. Because Eddie's a decisive person. He makes a choice and he goes straight Forward with it. So to watch him reconsider all the things that he'd already decided about his career and his life in New York City, that was not an easy time for me.

So you found yourself sort of trying to gently support Eddie for the time when he was ready to start exploring this in therapy.

Exactly.

Which you did, Eddie.

[Eddie]

Right, I just did. I have not dealt with this in therapy at all until now.

[Tony]

It's only because of us talking about this on the podcast.

[Eddie]

That is correct, yeah.

[Tony]

Wow.

[Eddie]

I equipped myself with a professional once you and I began our conversation, because I knew that it was time to let go of these things. And I think it was like a couple weeks ago, I had another ball session where I, like, it was like a hard. I sat down for a minute and that weeping happened again. And I took a deep breath. I was like. And I was like, I'm done. I am done having these emotions for Wicked. They have had 19 years of my life. 18, 19 years of my life. And I stopped. And I was like, I'm done. I'm done talking about it. I'm done feeling about it. They're no more. We're wrapping this up. And after you allowed me to, like I said, it really was not until I could hear the story back to me that I was prepared to fully understand what I had to let go of.

[Tony]

So for. Wow, for both of you, there's been this trauma sort of trapped back for 18, 19 years.

When people would ask, and I know he talked about this on the podcast, people would ask, why aren't you at Wicked anymore? And his usual answer was, well, when I left Wicked, and every time I heard that, I knew that we still weren't ready for the ultimate processing. And then, Sean, you came along, and it was almost as if the gravity of the situation required him to process this in a public way, in a bigger way than just one on one with a therapist. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

[Sean]

Eddie, I recall in our first recording session with you, you did use that phrase, the reason I left wicked. And then when we recorded with you for an additional session, you rephrased it. You said, the reason I don't do Wicked anymore.

[Eddie]

Yeah. Those words were my defense mechanism to control the narrative. And I fully know that I made that decision to used those words so that it was my decision and gave me the power in it, some agency.

[Tony]

Where the agency had been lacking.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Well, Tony, I hope that you will take care of yourself just as much as you've been taking care of Eddie.

[Tony]

For so many years.

[Eddie]

Well, and as I just said to him the other night, I was like, I have to thank you for being there and my support through this, but I know that when you're having something going on, that you have my full support as well. I'm able to put this to the side to be here for you as well, should you need me at a moment, you know?

[Tony]

Well, I remember saying this to Ian in the bonus episode that we did after we told the Goodspeed story, to say that, and I was still hurting. I was still dealing with it even when we recorded that. But to acknowledge that we made it through on the other side and recognizing that for many couples, maybe they wouldn't make it. So it's really a testament to your love for each other that you have made it through the other side. And I think as Eddie continues to deal with this, you'll continue to be there for each other.

Absolutely.

[Eddie]

Thank you, Sean.

[Ian]

So after talking with Eddie and his husband Tony, I realized we really need to be talking about so much more than just the person who is traumatized in the workplace. We need to talk about the ripple effect that bad employers are causing to relationships and to families.

[Sean]

And to do that, I decided to reconnect with a friend of the podcast who provided us all with some great guidance during seasons one and two. Clinical psychologist Dr. Michelle Sherman, who, coincidentally, has just written a book which could definitely shine some light on this issue.

[Tony]

Dr. Michelle Sherman, you're back on stage. Combat the podcast.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thank you so very much.

[Tony]

And so I was thinking about the season three, where we have told the stories of many performing artists in the community and the trauma that they have suffered. What's missing is how their trauma affects the people around them. The spouse, the boyfriend, the girlfriend, the child, the parent. Right, Michelle?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And so I'm so glad we're taking the time to intentionally talk about those people whose needs, feelings, experiences are often kind of ignored.

[Tony]

Yeah, I love that you just said to intentionally speak about them. And why is it important that we have this particular conversation?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

You know, the research has shown, actually, for decades that family members, friends, we'll just use that term collectively today, which could include parents, children, you know, good friends, these sorts of people. But they are at higher risk for developing emotional problems themselves because the challenges of loving someone with a mental illness or trauma are significant. Certainly we can see higher rates of depression, anxiety, ending of relationships, and things of that nature. And so it's very real. From just a data Perspective. But if we look at more a heart or a personal perspective, let's face it, where do we get most of our meaning in life? And that is our close relationships, not just intimate dyads, but our partnerships. And when we are struggling, depression, anxiety, trauma, how can it not impact those that we love? And frankly, having done a lot of couples therapy for 30 years, I've a lot of seen family members say, what did I do? Are they no longer interested or in love or wanting to be close to me? What, what happened? What did I do wrong? When if it is mental illness, it may have absolutely nothing to do with you. And so the confusion, the loneliness, the self blame at times, the anger. So their experiences are real, they're sadly often neglected. And part of it, if we think systemically, that's not a surprise. Right. Because let's say that my husband is dealing with bipolar disorder and he's having an episode. Of course, all the energy goes to helping him with his crisis.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Tony]

So let's kind of break this down, how this naturally occurs where there's this sort of neglect of this other person who's also in need. Because let's just take an example of the Goodspeed story because that's something the listeners are familiar with.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Uh huh.

[Tony]

Actually we kind of talked about this in some of our talk backs. We did, yeah. The listeners are very familiar with my husband Ian, and the possible effect of how things were affecting him. Now what I will tell you about my husband is that he just naturally puts the focus on other people. He's a very unselfish person. And so his primary concern was Sean is in trouble. Sean is in crisis. So it would not be his natural inclination to think, how is this affecting me?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

I have needs for some pretty serious mental illnesses. You know, major depression, bipolar disorder, some ptsd, things like psychosis. It typically is a long haul, not that there can't be great improvement, but it can be kind of a longer term marathon, not a sprint sort of challenge. And so finding ways of appreciating that this could be a longer term difficulty and road that the two of you are dealing with together can make it a little different. It's not like you break your leg and then you set it and then it's better and you're back to before. It's not always that way with mental illness or trauma.

[Tony]

Yeah. Which wasn't merely in my case. Oh, Sean had a panic attack at this theater. It was three and a half years of dealing with this disorder.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Tony]

This is where I'm just Thinking off the top of my head, when we.

[Sean]

See a loved one who has been traumatized by this industry, we want to encourage the people around that person to say, okay, I'm going to take care of this person that's been traumatized, but I'm also going to take care of myself.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Yes, absolutely. And realize that that's important for you to be even better in supporting your loved one, because if you don't, you're not gonna be able to show up for them, much less the other people in your life or important roles or things of that nature. Now, having said that, it's a lot easier said than done because, as you said, loved ones get into advocacy and caregiver role. And that's lovely. And perhaps that's what Ian did. The challenge is when it becomes kind of crisis after crisis after crisis and never knowing when the next crisis might arise.

[Tony]

Well, let's talk about some of the ways that the person who's sort of there for the person with mental illness or trauma, how they can be impacted. And what I love about the book that you wrote, there's actually sort of like a flowchart, and it says, if you're feeling like this, then go to this chapter. And one of those was, if you're feeling frustrated by not feeling heard by the other person or hurt when their loved one shuts down, then what do you do? I think that's probably a common situation that people find themselves in who have a partner or someone who is suffering from trauma or a mental illness.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Yeah. And the loved one can feel really distant and alone and neglected. Now, let's face it, part of the experience of mental illness and trauma is often a pretty significant focus on yourself, which makes sense because you're hurting.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

And when we're depressed or anxious, it's really hard for us to see beyond ourselves. And I'm not being rude. I'm just. It's the reality. And so it's like I'm just struggling to get through the day.

[Tony]

Yeah. I will make myself an example. I know there were times during those Goodspeed years where I would hit this really dark depression. And when you get into that valley, you feel that low, all you want to do is just crawl into bed and you can't even muster up what you want to say. Like, you want to say, this has nothing to do with you, and please don't take it personally. I just need to be kind of check out for right now. But in that moment, you can't muster that up. And if only your loved one could hear those words. So what does a person, what does an Ian do in that situation?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Couple thoughts. One is to maintain presence, meaning don't walk away. Now, I'm not saying ever to stay in an abusive relationship or things of that nature. I'm certainly not saying that. But maintaining presence, letting your loved one know that you're there, that you care for them, and that if and when they're wanting to talk, that you are there, trying hard not to push them because that will probably push them away. So staying aware, staying present. Number two, as hard as it can be to try not to take it personally. You know, we talk about blaming the illness and not the person. And this is part of his depression, this is part of his anxiety. He just cannot be there for me. It's not about me. But he or she can't be there right now.

[Tony]

And that can only really happen when the other person has been able to educate themselves on, like, what the condition is that the person has. And, you know, for someone to tell them those words, there might be times where it feels personal and to not take it personally.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Yes, educating yourself, talking. And then that was my third point of where I was going is like connecting with other people. And it could be existing friends, perhaps clergy, perhaps family members. It does get into a tricky issue that we may want to get into of how much you share about your loved ones. Let's pause that for a moment. But it is essential to seek support for yourself. I am also a very big believer and supporter of nami, which is a national alliance on mental illness that has free in person and virtual support groups all around the country for people who love someone living with mental illness or ptsd. And so connect, connect, connect. Stay available to your loved one. Realize this probably isn't about you. And connect and take care of your spirit. Even the basic things, Sean, like making sure I'm getting away from my Zumba class, making sure I'm getting away for my regular coffee with friends or whatever else it would be. Even if I feel guilty, leave my husband at home because he's so depressed. Why should I go have fun when he is depressed? You need to do it. You need to get out.

[Tony]

No, but that's vital connection and it takes you out of the isolation.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Absolutely.

[Tony]

I don't think he'll mind me saying this. I really, really wanted. Ian's not a therapy person and I really wanted him to go talk to someone. But what I also knew he does. Ian talks to his mother probably three times a day, and they talk about mental health. And they've had other incidents in their family. And so I would find myself saying, at least, did you talk to your mom this morning? Just to. Cause I would know he had someone that he could check in, because I didn't mind him sharing this with her. And we're all very close. But that's a really good example. Even if it's not going to a therapist, is there a friend or a family member that they can talk to on a regular basis, assuming that this is okay with everyone involved. Right. That this is going to be discussed?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

I couldn't agree more. You need people, and who it is doesn't matter too much as long as it's someone that is safe and will listen and support you and give you positive messages and want to hear about your experience. I've done couples therapy, as I've said, for a lot of years. And, Sean, sometimes what was really interesting is I'd be doing a session with a couple, and we'd be talking about, you know, the veterans, ptsd, whatever. And I'd look to the partner and say, hey, how are you? And they would just start crying because.

[Tony]

No one asked him that. Right.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

It was like, no one's asked me. No one's even thought about how I'm doing it. I am really struggling.

[Tony]

Yeah. That is so powerful. No one ever asked me how I'm doing. So there was another part of your. I'm calling it your flowchart, for lack of a better word. But there was an area for a person who feels like, how do I set limits with my loved one who has a mental illness or a history of trauma, and how do I respond to challenges in a respectful manner? Man, this seems really tricky to me, but I can only imagine a lot of people can relate to that.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

I think it's huge. I mean, there can be limits from. It's not okay for you to talk to me that way. You know, using profanity or swear words to me is not okay. There are all sorts of ways in which we think about limits. And it's hard because, again, I think about my decades of work with couples in which some they may say, well, Dr. Sherman, you know, he does have depression, so am I entitled to set a limit with them or ask for different behavior because they have a mental illness? And although, of course, I have empathy and care and awareness of the experience, mental illness, Michelle Sherman's opinion is that does not excuse or condone or rationalize unkind or abusive behavior. Okay, that's an opinion statement here.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

But I think a Lot of family members think, oh, I just have to accept it because, you know, they do have a mental illness.

[Tony]

It is a delicate tightrope walk, isn't it? But how does the relationship survive if you don't have some sort of limits to acknowledge? Yes, you have this condition, but there are certain lines that we shouldn't cross. Otherwise, then the other person who doesn't have the mental illness is always living in fear. Right.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

And resentment. Absolutely. Fear and resentment.

[Tony]

And no relationship can survive that.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Absolutely. And we don't have to get into being really mean about it or crabby about it, but just kind of matter of fact, it's like, this is kind of what it is. And if you choose not to do that, then this is going to be what's going to happen. But being firm and consistent on what that rule is, and it's only for self preservation because I. It's hard for me to continue to love and support you when you choose to treat me this way. And so I deserve to be treated with respect.

[Tony]

What do they do when their loved one is not willing? And I'm talking about the person with the mental illness or the trauma, when they're not willing to get help. That's quite a challenge for the other person.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Asking for help takes a lot of courage. We have so many layers of barriers. Access insurance. I can't afford it. My insurance doesn't cover this treatment. Spiritual and religious beliefs that perhaps you've been taught your whole life that we don't go to therapy. You know, you talk to your elders or things like that, or use different traditional methods of caring for that schedule. You know, God, I work eight to five and you're only open eight to five. How can I. How can I see you? Shame, embarrassment, denial, confusion. There's a new fancy word, I'll tell you that I just learned recently myself called anosognosia, which I've never heard of before. Ana psygnosia, which actually means low awareness. It's having low awareness that you have an illness. So I think I'm fine. It's a midlife crisis or whatever. And like, why would a loved one go to the doctor if they think that they're fine? There are so many challenges and barriers to seeking mental health care. And so what does a loved one do? Well, one realize we don't all do what is maybe best for us. Number two, realize that they may be dealing with a lot of barriers, those I listed and more. And so having empathy, that this is a hard thing to do. And number three, regularly and in love, specifically offer ways in which you think seeing someone might help move away from, well, you're depressed, you're anxious, you're. Whatever else those terms can be. Turn offs and say, I'm not depressed. Okay, well, all right, you're not sleeping, right? It's like, yeah, I can't sleep. How about, would you willing to go talk to the doctor about your sleep? Okay. I don't frankly care if my client says that they're depressed or not, or major depression, but they're willing to talk to me because they're not sleeping. And then they can maybe be willing to talk about the fact that they're also crying every day or whatever. So find what is meaningful and reasonable to them that they may be willing to talk to someone.

[Tony]

I think you tapped into something that's really important because what you are essentially addressing is that the person who's suffering feels stigma about being depressed or whatever that condition is. So by approaching it from another angle, away from the stigma, such as just, everyone wants to sleep better, everyone wants to feel better. I think that sounds really smart to me in terms of how to go about this.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

And then frankly, part of it, and this is so hard, but is patience, because you really can't. Unless they're an immediate crisis. Of course, that's a whole different story. But you can't really make them do something they don't want to do. And I'll tell you, as a mental health professional, it doesn't work very well if they're forced to come to my office. Doesn't work terribly well for them. And so continuing to encourage, to make it available, to suggest, to help overcome obstacles. Well, you know, I've called three doctors. They all have waiting lists. Well, would you allow me to make a couple calls and see if I could find someone, you know, help overcome obstacles? For sure.

[Sean]

That is so important because when you are suffering and you're trying to get into a health provider, things can really seem insurmountable. So offering that help is really key.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tony]

There was something in your book that really kind of hit me emotionally. And you were posing the question of how does a person who has a loved one who's suffering a mental illness or a history of trauma, how do they handle missing how their loved one used to be? And how do they handle feeling sad that maybe the future has changed?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Sean, you're so onto something. And I think a lot of people who haven't lived it don't understand this.

[Tony]

I think you're right, but it is.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

We have a Whole chapter on managing loss and moving into acceptance. Because it can be loss at many levels. It can be the loss of someone just to do stuff with. You know, who do I go to Thanksgiving dinner with, who do we decorate the holiday house with? You know, maybe they can do it, maybe they can't. But the loss of companionship, the loss of intimacy, which can involve emotional intimacy, certainly mental health can affect sexual functioning and interests. So it can be sexual intimacy and medications. Of course it can involve a loss of hope for the future. I always planned that we would do X, Y and Z. But now that he, she, they are struggling with this. That may not be possible anymore. And so it is a really challenging thing. But I think part of the first step for family members is to honor the loss and then moving into, okay, this is what the situation is. And moving into acceptance. We talk about kind of some different principles of how to accept the reality of what the situation is.

[Tony]

In several of the stories that we've told in this season is that the industry traumatized the subjects in the episodes so badly that they just lost their desire to either create or certainly work as actors. And that's a big, that's a big loss. If you developed a relationship with the person you met, you know, creating in the performing arts and then they don't want to do that anymore, that person has changed quite a bit.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

And perhaps they'll find other ventures or things that will invigorate and excite them. But that's a loss too, of identity of who am I and what is my community and meaning and belonging?

[Tony]

You know, I think ultimately this all comes down in so many ways. Dr. Sherman, is our industry not recognizing not only the damage that we're doing to artists, but forgetting that every time you damage an artist, there is a ripple effect? And that's really kind of what we're talking about is the effect of what the industry is doing to artists. It is destroying families.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

I just think that it is good to think about your impacting more than the person in front of you. The ripple effects can be so great and so many ways in terms of their well being.

[Tony]

Is that's what it is.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Yeah. It's not just the one person. Now, again, I also would like to just note that the family members, partners, parents, whatever else, they can be incredibly important advocates and help people in their journey of wellness. So I don't want to just pose this as they're just kind of residue or an after effect or someone being hurt. They can be immense parts of helping the person Improve and move forward, just like I'm sure Ian had did with you. I was helping you heal from your anxiety and things like that. But it's like the collateral damage can be great.

[Tony]

Yeah. But here's the thing. If our employers aren't. I mean, let's. Yeah, let's take my example. If my employer didn't care what was happening to me, do you think they gave a thought to what was happening to my husband even after the story came out?

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

Yeah, exactly. That's just not the mindset.

[Tony]

Exactly.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

That's what I spent my whole career and will continue to is really thinking beyond the person in front of you. Because we know, right, mental illness impacts about one in four people. And so if you look at the ripple effects, that's like pretty much everyone. Just even at the doctor's office. For example, if you're. I'm a psychiatrist and I'm talking to a patient living with bipolar disorder, even asking, who else is in your life? Do you have children? How are they doing? Do you have a partner? How are they doing?

[Tony]

Yeah, one in four people. And then the ripple effect. Dr. Sherman, I was terrible in math. That's why I went to law school. But even I can feel that grows.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

To be a very big number very quickly. Very quickly.

[Tony]

Well, on behalf of our listeners, thank you, Dr. Sherman, for being part of the StageCombat community.

[Dr. Michelle Sherman]

It is always such an honor and a privilege to spend time with you and to engage together on some of these big issues. So thank you for the important work. I admire you and what you're doing tremendously. And so I say bravo. And again, big thank you.

[Ian]

Dr. Michelle Sherman's book, co authored with her mother, Dee N. Sherman, is called Loving Someone with a Mental Illness or A History of Trauma. It's published by John Hopkins University Press, and It comes out January 21st, but you can pre order it on Amazon right now. And I think every person should have a copy of this book in their family library. And I want every employer in the arts or any profession really, to think about that ripple effect number. Whether you are a producer of the biggest musical on Broadway or a regional theater in Connecticut, your actions go far beyond the person you are seeking to directly harm. And to Eddie and his husband Tony, and anyone else who has gone through.

[Tony]

What they went through and what my.

[Ian]

Husband Ian and I went through. A toast to you for the new year, for standing up and making it to the other side. Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat, the podcast Sean has questions for the union.

[Tony]

When we're hearing stories about people that did go to the rep and things were allowed to continue in the same way. How can the union expect its members to trust them in the future when they need support? Because there is that perception.

[Union Representative]

I hear that, and I think that the onus is on the union to prove to you that you can come to us. You know the union isn't perfect and our business reps work incredibly hard. And the other side of that is that they're sometimes overworked. And with overwork comes humanity.

[Tony]

There can be a failure.

[Union Representative]

There can be a failure.

[Ian]

This episode was edited by Alex Griffith. Mixing and sound design were by Justin Gerrish and it was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions.

[Sean]

Llc over at Stage Combat at Patreon. Hear more of my conversations with Eddie and Dr. Michelle Sherman. Just follow the link in the show notes and we would love to hear from you. Drop us a DM on Instagram @stagecombatthepodcast IG and let us know what did this episode make you feel? You can also email us at stagecombat the podcastmail.com and as always, we appreciate you rating and reviewing Stage Combat on your podcast platform so you can let.

[Ian]

Others know what the podcast means to you. A reminder that the content in this.

[Tony]

Episode is not medical advice.

[Ian]

Please consult with a medical professional. I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Haywood Productions llc.