"Revealing Your Darkest Secret: ABC News' Matt Gutman"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast: Episode Summary — "Revealing Your Darkest Secret: ABC News' Matt Gutman"

Release Date: December 3, 2024
Host: Sean Hayden
Guest: Matt Gutman, ABC News Chief National Correspondent

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1. Introduction and Context

In the premiere of Season 3, Sean Hayden sets the stage by expressing gratitude for the overwhelming listener response to previous episodes. Building on the podcast’s mission to illuminate and combat toxic work environments across various industries, this episode delves into the deeply personal story of Matt Gutman, ABC News' Chief National Correspondent, as he reveals his struggle with panic disorder.

Sean Hayden [00:00]:
"What happens when actors stop being quiet and start speaking up... Stage Combat is about fighting back when we are mistreated in our workplaces, no matter what stage we may be on in our lives!"

2. Matt Gutman's Journey with Panic Disorder

Sean introduces Matt Gutman’s journey, highlighting Matt’s high-pressure role as a war correspondent and the onset of his panic disorder. Matt candidly shares his experiences, detailing how his panic attacks began to interfere with his professional and personal life.

Eddie Pendergraft [07:08]:
"I had my first panic attack at 21... I just called it nerves. I didn't know what it was."

Matt recounts his first panic attack in 2019 during a live broadcast, a moment that starkly contrasted his previous experiences in war zones. Despite his robust professional background and support systems, Matt found himself struggling with debilitating anxiety that led him to seek unconventional therapies.

Matt Gutman [03:45]:
"Emotional surrender means relinquishing control of the secret... talking to a stranger on a plane was the first thing I did." [03:45]

3. The Stigma Around Panic Attacks

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the societal stigma surrounding panic attacks, particularly for men and individuals in high-profile positions. Matt and Eddie explore how traditional masculine norms exacerbate the shame associated with mental health struggles, making it challenging for men to seek help or admit vulnerability.

Eddie Pendergraft [18:26]:
"The stigma around it is massive... We have to maintain that control." [18:26]

Matt emphasizes the misconception that panic attacks are a sign of weakness, especially in professions that demand resilience and composure. He highlights the lack of awareness and understanding both in the general population and within medical settings, where panic attacks are often misdiagnosed or dismissed.

Amelia Morse [25:34]:
"How do we deal with it, work with it, handle it... We start to really question ourselves." [25:34]

4. Coping Strategies and Treatment Approaches

Matt and Eddie discuss various strategies Matt employed to manage his panic disorder. Initially relying on conventional treatments like pharmacology, Matt found limited relief and transitioned to alternative therapies, including breath work, psilocybin, ayahuasca, ketamine, and mescaline. These methods facilitated deeper emotional processing and healing.

Eddie Pendergraft [14:05]:
"Using breath work to reach a subconscious state helped me grapple with my grief." [14:05]

Despite experimenting with multiple therapies, Matt acknowledges that his journey towards managing panic disorder is ongoing. He emphasizes the importance of finding personalized treatment plans and the role of continuous self-awareness in maintaining mental health.

Matt Gutman [16:28]:
"I ended up going back to Mike Telch... I'm still afraid of having a panic attack." [16:28]

5. Listener Reflections and Impact

Listeners Laquette Charnel Pringle and Amelia Morse share their reflections on Matt’s story, illustrating the profound impact of his openness. They discuss how Matt’s honesty about his mental health struggles provides validation and encouragement for others facing similar challenges, reinforcing the podcast’s mission to create a supportive community.

Laquette Charnel Pringle [30:10]:
"If you are brave enough to create Stage Combat... I'm allowed to grieve it and process it and speak about it, and that I am not alone." [30:10]

Amelia Morse [28:46]:
"Even at the top, you are still disposable very easily." [28:46]

6. Conclusion and Takeaways

Sean wraps up the episode by highlighting the key lessons from Matt’s story: the importance of disclosure, the power of storytelling in healing, and the need to dismantle the stigma surrounding mental health, especially in high-pressure environments. He encourages listeners to continue sharing their own stories and supports the community-driven approach of the podcast.

Sean Hayden [26:00]:
"He has to really get out a really important message... How you handle these struggles matters." [26:00]

Matt's book, No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks, is recommended as a valuable resource for those seeking to understand and manage panic disorders.

Sean Hayden [24:28]:
"I hope the reader... will think to themselves, I'm okay. Maybe I am the normal one. Maybe the ultra sensitive are the normal ones." [24:28]

The episode closes with an invitation for listeners to engage with the podcast community and share their own experiences, reinforcing the collective effort to foster healthier, more respectful workplaces.

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Key Quotes:

• Sean Hayden [03:45]:
  "What does emotional surrender mean? It's an excellent question."

• Matt Gutman [16:28]:
  "I can't say that any one therapy cured me... But at least I won't hate myself as much as I used to."

• Eddie Pendergraft [20:25]:
  "Revealing your dark secret is part of the complete human experience."

• Amelia Morse [25:34]:
  "We start to really question ourselves and I feel like that could be more harm than anything."

Final Thoughts:

"Revealing Your Darkest Secret: ABC News' Matt Gutman" is a poignant episode that not only sheds light on the personal battle with panic disorder but also challenges societal norms around mental health. Through Matt’s transparency and the supportive dialogue facilitated by Sean Hayden, listeners are encouraged to confront their own struggles and contribute to a culture of openness and healing.

Transcript

[Sean Hayden]

Hey, everyone. Sean here. How was your Thanksgiving? I hope it was a great one. And I just want to check in with you before we start the episode to say thank you for the overwhelming response we received to our last episode, another Wicked story. In that episode, Eddie Pendergraft claimed his story by sharing with us what his experience was like while working at Wicked on Broadway. In response to some of your questions, I wanted to share with you that the stage manager in both Eddie and Brett Shuford stories retired in March of this year, and there is a new stage management team in place at Wicked. I also wanted to share with you the vision and scope of this podcast. This podcast is here not only to give voice to those who have been damaged by toxic work environments, such as Ed and Another Wicked Story, but also a platform to promote ideas of how to make our workplaces better, such as our episode the F Word, which many of you really responded to. We also want to feature stories of those who are out in the field proactively fostering healthy work environments. We are big believers that we can bring change to the industry, not only by exposing the problems in the workplace, but by showcasing those who are leading to make our workplaces safe, dignified, and respectful. So if you are a stage manager, a company manager, a producer, anyone who is out there and you are creating safe working environments, we want to hear from you so we can share what you're up to. And that invitation extends not only to anyone working at the Gershwin Theater at Wicked on Broadway, but in any theater in the country. And now on with our episode, revealing your darkest secret featuring Matt Gutman from ABC News. And just to note to you, our listeners, there was a really spotty zoom connection when we originally recorded this inter.

[Matt Gutman]

You said with your therapies, everything worked, some more than others, but they all led to emotional surrender. Can you tell us what you mean by emotional surrender? That seems like a very powerful phrase.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

Part of it is doing just this, right. It's being vulnerable.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

It's talking about what was my darkest secret. The thing I couldn't tell because I'd be fired. At least my reputation, my career, my status. It would be colossally bad if people knew that. I panic.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah. I went through the same thing. Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

And how cathartic was it to tell people? I mean, you're doing it very publicly.

[Matt Gutman]

And so are you.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

Yeah. Which actually does cause a little bit of anxiety.

[Matt Gutman]

It does. Right before. Yeah, it does. I had that. Oh, my God, they're going to know, you know.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

What does emotional surrender mean? It's an excellent question. So the first part is relinquishing that control of the secret, right? I let it out. I talked to a stranger on a plane. That was the first thing I was like. I had a panic on air in December of 2020, and I thought I'd beat panic, and I hadn't. And I was so despondent. I got on this plane and there was this lovely lady cat, Armado, I'm still in touch with. And I just told her everything. And it was like a weight was lifted. And I'm like, this is really good medicine. And then I started telling colleagues and friends and people in my orbit. So that was one form of emotional surrender.

[Sean Hayden]

That's part of my 2023 interview with ABC News chief national correspondent Matt Gutman. And we're talking about secrets. So what's yours? What is the one thing that you are trying so hard to keep under wraps? Throughout this season three, we've heard a lot of people reveal their secrets. The secret of the trauma suffered at the hands of a bully boss while working on Broadway, or the tragic consequences of being the victim of a botched workplace investigation or simply disclosing your mental health condition. Broadway actor Chrissy Whitehead did just that in episode eight, putting it out There when she talked about her bipolar 2 disorder as well as some family secrets.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

And I know there are people out there that are holding onto secrets.

[Amelia Morse]

Secrets are just so sick, they make you sick. I don't believe people face reality enough.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I just don't. Because when you face reality and you.

[Amelia Morse]

Face what you are so scared of, it dissipates.

[Sean Hayden]

So what's my big secret? Well, about a year and a half ago, I disclosed to all of you that I had a panic disorder. Through 20 episodes of something that sounded like a true crime podcast, I told the story of what really happened to me at a certain Connecticut theater, as well as my mental health recovery over the next three and a half years. It was a condition shared by celebrated ABC News chief national correspondent Matt Gutman, who had just told the world in a book that he was a war correspondent with a panic disorder. It was a really big deal for the mental health world. And as I've been thinking about the impact and the power of disclosing our secrets throughout the season, I thought maybe it's time to revisit our interview with Matt Gutman. And as new content, let's ask a couple of our listeners to tell us how they feel about that interview with Matt. So we have standing by friend to the podcast, Laquette Charnel Pringle from Harlem, New York.

[Laquette Charnel Pringle]

Hey, friend. Hi. Good to see you.

[Sean Hayden]

And we also have intimacy. Director Amelia Morse from Fort Collins, Colorado. We're so glad to have you here. Amelia.

[Amelia Morse]

Hello. Thank you for having me.

[Sean Hayden]

So, Laquette and Amelia, we're going to revisit first the interview with Matt and then we'll rejoin you to talk about it. Let's join Matt Gutman from ABC News.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I am so happy to be here talking to your listeners who are my people. You know, I feel like we're all sort of kindred spirits in this.

[Matt Gutman]

I mean, that's really what it's about, right? It is. So many of us just felt like we have suffered in silence and to build community and to break that silence. And that's so much, I think. What is part of your story?

[Eddie Pendergraft]

When was the first time that you even did you know what a panic attack was when you had the first one?

[Matt Gutman]

I had no idea, Matt. I. I collapsed on stage during a performance and had no idea what was happening to me. What about you when you had your first one?

[Eddie Pendergraft]

How old were you? What year was this?

[Sean Hayden]

Well, 2019.

[Matt Gutman]

2019. Yeah. Yeah. So middle aged, first panic attack.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I mean, well educated theater person. I was the same way. You know, I'm Williams College, which is a prestigious school I've had. I'm the beneficiary of a great education, good parents who really cared. I had done therapy for years, and I had my first panic attack at 21, probably before, but that's the first, like, you know, soak the shirt. I have cats at my neck. I can't breathe. I have tunnel vision. Something terrible is happening to me. I may be molting into a werewolf panic attack. And I still didn't know that it was a panic attack or all the hundreds that I'd had since between the age of 21 till about my mid-30s. I just called it nerves. I didn't know what it was.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

There is so little education and intervention for something that is so massively common. It is shocking. It is so lacking in our society. And it's incredibly depressing that it is so.

[Matt Gutman]

It is. And you know what we have found? We released two seasons of Stage Combat, kind of telling my story. And we're hearing the same thing for listeners. They're hearing me and saying, oh, I'm realizing I had an episode or I had other episodes. And now I know there were panic attacks. And I had no idea at the time other than something was really, really wrong with me. But it just that stat that you were sharing about how many people go to the error. Right. How many millions. That translated to that they were not heart attacks, they were panic attacks. It's alarming amount of people.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

You know, Sean, that, that stat you just mentioned was heartbreaking to me when I first realized it, learned it in my research for this book. There are 8 million Americans who present at the nation's emergency rooms every year presenting for heart attacks or thinking that they have heart attacks. Turns out that over 3 million of them, 3 million every year are actually having a panic attack. And only 1 to 2% of them, 1 to 2% are actually treated for that mental health, illness or event they're having. Right. Because you may have panic disorder, which I do and I've been dealing with. And some people may have one panic attack in their lifetime. But what we know is that this symptoms of a panic attack almost perfectly mimic the symptoms of a heart attack. Shortness of breath, rapid breathing, feelings of derealization. Sometimes people get tightness in their upper arms and their chest, sweating, shaking, tunnel vision. All these things present clinically to 911 dispatchers, to doctors, initially as heart attack, as cardiac events, which is why it's so scary. And the reason for that is that your brain is telling your body that there is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. And this is a life and death issue. That's what your brain is telling the body. It may not be, but it's something that has to be dealt with. And it's so unfortunate that so many of these people who present at the emergency rooms can't get the help that they need.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah. And as part of that, even the emergency room people are not trained enough to be able to tell them you're having a panic attack. They're just telling you you're not having a heart attack, there's nothing wrong with you. Right.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

So they're sent home to ponder what it might be that is driving them to have these colossally uncomfortable and scary symptoms. Right. Maybe it's an aneurysm, maybe I'm having a stroke, maybe it's something else, cancer, which can actually turn a one off panic attack into full blown panic disorder. That's what's so unfortunate about it. And you know, I don't blame the doctors. They deal with physiology and they feel like their realm is the physical and they feel uncomfortable delving into the realm of the psychological when it's not their jurisdiction. I understand that, but we need better intervention in our society. The more I learn about this and the more I Learn how pervasive it is, hear people with stories like yours and mine and so many people out there, the more I realized that so many people's lives have been damaged unnecessarily because of panic.

[Matt Gutman]

So this was part of. This is what you found out on your personal journey. You know, we use that word a lot, but you went on a real journey to kind of figure out why your mind and body behave the way it did for the past 20 years. Right. And were you able to come to some insights as to what had caused your history of panic attacks? Were there particular incidents in your lives or daily stimulus? What were you able to come to as far as a conclusion?

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I knew exactly what the stimulus was. It was go live in front of a television camera. It was the fear of judgment of my peers. It was the fear that I would make some sort of mistake, lose control, and get kicked out of my group. You know, my group was the executives and the anchors at ABC News. And my fear was somehow making the group weaker and being kicked out of the group. So social judgment was my personal fear. Now, why do I have such a keen fear for judgment? I'm not sure. I call it the courageous coward. Right. For many years, I was the reporter. I still am. Who goes to war zones. I spent the first seven and a half years of my career in the Middle east, covering every single major conflict in the Middle east from 2001 to 2008. I was there when 9, 11 happened. I was in Iraq shortly after the war began. I've been to Afghanistan, to Syria, to Lebanon. I've been shot at. I've been held captive in Venezuela by the secret police, all these things. But, my God, standing in front of a camera about to go live when there's absolute silence around me in pristine circumstances. That was terrifying to me.

[Matt Gutman]

Going in front of a camera live, that was more fearful for you than actually being in a real dangerous situation such as a war zone.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I wasn't afraid of the lion eating me. I was afraid of the social rejection by my group. Yeah, I felt more comfortable with the lion than being kicked out of my group. Now, once I started this journey, it's a cliche, but it is an apt term. I found that altered states, everything from breath work to psilocybin to ayahuasca, ketamine, mescaline, all these things helped me reach a subconscious state where I could grapple with my grief.

[Matt Gutman]

Was part of grappling with that grief? Was that dealing with, well, you lost your father, right, when you were very young.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I mean, yes, I think so. It may be some PTSD as well. I don't know if I can pinpoint. I don't know if anybody can exactly pinpoint their grief, but I know it's in there. And it felt like there was this bottomless well that I couldn't out of, and it was just so deep, and I was afraid to go in it in my conscious head state. And so the only way I could get into that seemingly bottomless well of grief was to get into this altered state and be thrust into it. And I felt that going there helped me deal with a lot of the psychological issues.

[Matt Gutman]

You actually started with very conventional treatment. Yes. And then evolved onto less conventional. And you found that was sort of.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

The opening for you started with pharmacology. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people out there, a lot of listeners, especially on this podcast, you know, my kindred spirits, my souls here, you know, have tried Klonopin and benzos and SSRIs. I also was on. I tried Adderall because my psychiatrist says I do have adhd, but none of the medic propranolol. Nothing really worked. The benzos and the propranolol made me feel sluggish, and I didn't want to be doing that much of this very addictive drug. Not every time. You know, if you're going on air ten times a week, like, how much Xanax was I going to be taking? That was not the route that I wanted to keep taking. I needed to try to find something else, which is why I try to find alternative therapies. Some of them were unorthodox. I wouldn't recommend someone following my exact roadmap of getting to wellness, to mental health wellness, but hopefully my book prescribes a couple of things that people can use and they can take shortcuts that I didn't know existed.

[Matt Gutman]

In stage combat over 20 episodes, the listeners kind of heard my own journey. And I think you'll agree there's no one journey that fits everyone. And I think what's interesting about you, Matt, is that you kept trying different ways until you found the opening. And did you feel like that you did find where you needed to go to be able to, you know, deal with your panic, deal with your trauma? Or is this something you're still trying to maybe hold a truce with? Where do you think you are on that today?

[Eddie Pendergraft]

So I ended up. First of all, thank you. I ended up going back to Mike Telch, who is the head of the University of Austin Lab for the study of anxiety. And, you know, when I first went there, I was at severe panic disorder. And now I'm at. I mean, he would say mild panic disorder. Right. Like, I'm still afraid of having a panic. I am still afraid of losing control. I know that the outcomes will not be catastrophic. I know that my mind always kicks into gear. But I can't say that I won't have another panic again. I probably will. And so this is about coming to a truce with the warring parties in our brain, with that drill sergeant that stands over you, in your brain as you're talking, as you're performing, as you're presenting in front of your colleagues and says you're bad. You're about to. Oh, there you go. There's a panic attack. You're panicking right now and you're blithering. Oh, now you're sweating too great. You look terrible. You're a loser. That guy, that drill sergeant is being retired. He's gone to pension. I can't say that any one therapy cured me, although some people have that experience. Some people say that Wellbutrin or Zoloft or some medication took away all of their panic. And it does work for some people. I'm not opposed to those medications. I'm also not a doctor, by the way. But for me, sort of everything, this holistic reframing of panic worked. Will it do the trick forever? I don't know.

[Sean Hayden]

I hope so.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

But at least I won't hate myself as much as I used to a few years ago.

[Matt Gutman]

Can I ask you something that I've talked a lot about? Is the role of. For male identifying people, traditional masculine norms. And I'm interested, I know, in my journey. That certainly played a role in my shame of anyone knowing that I had a panic disorder. Is that part of your experience as well? Of course. Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

Yeah. Especially since I was this, you know, tough war correspondent. I wasn't supposed. I mean, people who meet me, I'm extremely gregarious. I'm energetic. I'm small of stature, but big of personality, you know, And I really like people. And to have this weakness, this Achilles heel, was so shameful. The stigma around it is massive. And that's what's so sad about panic in general. Right. Like, it's okay to talk about certain mental health conditions and disorders, but panic isn't really talked about in our society because it's associated with hysteria and loss of control. And we as men have to keep control. We have to maintain that control.

[Matt Gutman]

And it's certainly not talked about with regard to men. I will say this. When I had my panic, I figured out I had had a panic attack. The only person I knew googling was Dan Harris, you know? Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

By the way, Dan Harris is the first person who told me that what I was having were panic attacks.

[Matt Gutman]

Well, there you go. Before he wrote the book, this is why this is so important.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Gutman]

And I watched dance on air Panic attack. And I was like, oh, my God. That's exactly what I've done. So, yeah, just the lack of young men, any men, being able to look up to someone is. This is why it's so important what you're doing, Matt, because you have such a big platform and people do look up to you for your fearlessness, but the fearlessness as a war correspondent and a guy who has a panic disorder, they coexist together. It's. It is a complete person, and that's what we have to change in perceptions of people.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

You know, I think I. I love that you just use the term complete person, because. Crying, being vulnerable, exposing yourself in some ways that might feel uncomfortable. Revealing your dark secret is part of the complete human experience.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

Right. Like, and if we don't have that, we are bound to break down. And so, again, this is what this journey taught me, that, you know, as vulnerable as I am typically, and I'm, you know, a big sharer, hiding stuff can be pretty bad and pretty damaging, especially something like panic. So I'm working on it. I'm working on it all the time. It's. It's. It's not something that you master, and it goes away, I think. But it's also. And I want people just to know. It's been obviously very painful for me and for you. It's probably directed our career in certain ways that we hadn't anticipated.

[Matt Gutman]

Yes.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

But it's also. It's. It's super strength.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

And I do believe it's a superpower, because people who have panic are much more likely to be ultra sensitive to others. And there's a reason it still exists in the human genome and hasn't been selected out over tens of thousands of generations, there's something in there that is beneficial to the human condition. And so as long as we don't think of it as something that's got to be killed, stamped out, crushed, that is evil, that is nefarious. It's just part of the complete human experience. As long as we remember that, I think it's very important and helps sort of push that drill sergeant, that angry Drill sergeant out of the corner of our brains.

[Matt Gutman]

Well, I'm so glad to hear that you were able to come to that point. It's something I was able to come to after three and a half years. And that's something our listeners have heard in my story. Can I ask you, what has the reception been like with your professional colleagues now that you have become public about your panic disorder in the book? What is that like for you right now?

[Eddie Pendergraft]

So, you know, a lot of them have come forward and said, I also suffer from bad. I've had those panic attacks too. I think this is actually one of the reasons I want to talk to you, because I think in the world of actors and of people who are presenters and television and radio and other media, I think this is far more common than anybody talks about.

[Matt Gutman]

Oh, I do too.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

And I think the use of drugs to combat it is far more common than anyone wants to talk about. I don't exactly know how pervasive it is in my industry, but I imagine. I mean, it's a terrifying thing, right? There's a director in your ear counting you down. You have 15 seconds to talk, or expected nothing. Perfect. And you have 15 seconds, right. It's easy to talk for minutes, and you have an arm or stutter. No one can be perfect in that amount of time. But the shortness, the actual brevity of what we're supposed to do as TV correspondence makes it more difficult, especially when we're in the field. So, you know, it's kind of a crazy business. And there's all these stuff that's happening around the scene. And I'm sure acting is the same way in theater.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah, for sure. Whether you're performing in front of a live camera or a live audience, it's basically flying without a net.

[Sean Hayden]

Matt, what do you hope your readers.

[Matt Gutman]

Take away from your book? Apart from what is a really compelling personal story and the research? I'm just wondering whether there's a feeling or something that you hope the readers take away from the book.

[Eddie Pendergraft]

I think it's actually very simple, and I think you kind of alluded to it just now. I hope that the reader or listener audiobook as well, will think to themselves, I'm okay. I am not some weird ink in the human genome. I'm okay. And maybe even I am the normal one. Maybe it is normal to have panic once we think about how networked we are as human beings and how dependent we are on the cooperation of other human beings. Maybe we, the ultra sensitive, are the normal ones. Maybe I'M okay.

[Sean Hayden]

So Laquette and Amelia, that was part of my interview with Matt Gutman. And we should also add that the book Matt was talking about is called no Time to Panic. How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered A Lifetime of Panic Attacks. It's published by Doubleday. And I know you both read his.

[Matt Gutman]

Book, as did I. And I think what Matt really brings up is that obviously the stigma of mental health, but with panic disorders, which is something I experienced, developed while working at the Goodspeed Opera House, that panic is a stigma within the stigma of mental health. It's almost a dirty secret. People don't really believe there's something to panic attacks. They just think you're being overly dramatic or you're worried, you know, And I think it's really for someone of Matt Gutman's prominence and stature to come out and say, yeah, it's real and it can be devastating. The effects of having panic attacks, not only on your health, but trying to do a job such as being a war correspondent for ABC News.

[Amelia Morse]

Amelia, you're right. How it is kind of the dirty secret in the mental health world because there's lack of understanding. And how do we, I want to say, deal with it, but work with it, handle it, and even understand realizing, am I having a panic attack? Am I overreacting? Is this all in my head? We start to really question ourselves and I feel like that could be more harm than anything because then we're starting to gaslight ourselves.

[Sean Hayden]

And with Matt's story, I just have to say I really appreciate his complete honesty, considering he still has to work for ABC News.

[Matt Gutman]

Like, he was really giving some not so pleasant details about what he was going through. And I really did admire his honesty and boldness for the story he was telling Laquette.

[Laquette Charnel Pringle]

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with that because I think when you are in high powered jobs, when you are in the public eye, there is the sense that you shouldn't have to deal with these problems, right? Like you got the lotto winning number ticket, you know, you're on tv, people know you, you're an influencer, right? Like, there's air around you, so there should be no panic. You get to do the thing that everybody wishes they could do, which immediately opens up that door of, like, you're dramatic, you're this, you're that, you're whiny, like all of those things when really it's just again, it's the person tuning into themselves and it happened at a really inconvenient time that just catapults for me, him though, because he is working at ABC and he has access to so many resources and so many tools. Like, he's a reporter. He knows how to research where to find something to help him in those moments. And I loved the vulnerability in sharing all the different ways in which he was trying to figure out how to fix this thing when it happens on camera. And I think as performers particularly, we are constantly trying to figure out how do I not have that oh, fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck moment when it counts the most.

[Matt Gutman]

It was interesting because not only does he have. In the book he's telling the story of having the panic disorder, but he's using his journalism tools. He's using the tools that he has to try to make some sense of it. Not only to understand the research behind it, but also to explore alternative therapies. And Matt wrote, he said, I could easily. We're talking about how much you could lose. I could easily lose my job, be cast out into the wilderness of the unemployed, weakening my family's financial security. Did the two of you still empathize with Matt even though he is a high power person at ABC News, has a lot of resources, a lot of privileges. Did you still find that accountant empathetic?

[Laquette Charnel Pringle]

Yes, because I still have a family to take care of. I get that. I mean, on varying levels. So she'll like that economic part of it, like will be whatever it's gonna be. But at the end of the day, it's about feeding our kids. At the end of the day, it's about keeping a roof over your head. Right. Like, I get that.

[Matt Gutman]

What did you think, Amelia?

[Amelia Morse]

Yeah. I wanna add to that is, I think Matt also showed that it's easily be disposable no matter who you are and what your name is or how wonderful what you bring to the table is. There's someone else want to kind of tie back to what Laquette said. There's that idea of, I guess I should. I don't know privilege is the correct word. But you have this privilege of you have this high powered job that other people want. Yet I don't think people realize that even at the top, you are still disposable very easily.

[Sean Hayden]

I want to bring up someone Matt briefly mentioned in the interview and wrote about in more detail in his book. He met a stranger on an airplane named Cat Army. Matt had had an unair panic attack and he was very despondent. And he just started talking to the stranger on the plane, the woman named Kat, and telling his story to her.

[Matt Gutman]

And he wrote, disclosure is of course, one of the oldest and most primal forms of psychological relief. As we made out our mutual disclosures, I could feel the weight of that latest panic attack lift ever so slightly off my shoulders. This kind of talking, I realized, was good medicine. And what I take away from this book is the power of disclosure, as we were saying at the top of this conversation, and the power of telling our stories. What do you think, Laquette?

[Laquette Charnel Pringle]

Had you not been brave enough to create Stage Combat, I don't know if I would be professionally where I'm at within my own artistic career, because I was right on that borderline of dealing with so much and it either happening or not. And your podcast came in right at the right time for me to acknowledge that what had happened, happened, and that I'm allowed to grieve it and process it and speak about it, and that I am not alone in it. And that for me is the power of storytelling. Like, that's why I was wanting to be a part of the theater, right, was because these were people who wanted to tell a lot of really gnarly stories. And some of those stories are going to take you into some deep, dark places. But if you can be introspective and self aware about it, the healing that can happen from it. I can't access everything that Matt talks about in this book, but what I can, I will. And now that I have these tools, I'm no longer a defenseless person, which means I can go and share these tools with the people that I am in contact with and they can go, you know what? I could use these three tools. I can't use them all, but you know what I mean, like that sense of passing the baton or sharing the mic is so wrapped up in this entire thing. And that for me is just I'm beyond grateful and thankful for.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, thank you so much for that, Laquette.

[Matt Gutman]

This is what's so amazing. I think Laquette and us all being open to all of our stories, no matter what background or experiences or privilege, I have learned so much and have felt so much in my life opened up just from hearing about your story. Laquid. Our worlds are very different, but for us to find commonality and to celebrate our differences, you know, and so I think it is like someone with Matt's and it doesn't hurt. Look, we can get a lot out of Matt's book. He's a great looking guy, people just like him. He's likable. And so he's really using that charisma and that charm, he has to really get out a really important message. Right. Don't you think, Amelia?

[Amelia Morse]

Absolutely. But I also know from my own personal experience, like you two just shared, that you have connected over your stories. I shared with you, Sean. I've had postpartum depression and I went to a mom group and I would talk about it, and I had a woman come up to me and say she got checked because I shared my story. So even though we are different, I think that commonality of being human and having these difficult things and having these hard conversations helps us grow and hopefully heals a little part of ourselves today.

[Matt Gutman]

Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing that with us, Amelia.

[Amelia Morse]

Thank you.

[Matt Gutman]

Well, I enjoyed this conversation so much, Amelia Laquette, I appreciate you taking the time to share Matt's book with me and to share this conversation with me. Thank you, Amelia. Thank you, Laquette.

[Amelia Morse]

Thank you.

[Sean Hayden]

And by the way, at Stage Combat, we do love bringing new friends together like Amelia and Laquette, who had never met before our conversation together.

[Laquette Charnel Pringle]

Oh, Mama, I'm hugging you. I feel you, Mama. You're not alone.

[Amelia Morse]

Did we just become like best friends? We're fully now I know. I was like, I need to find you on social media now.

[Sean Hayden]

Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat, it is time for the second annual Stage Combat Holiday Special. Get out your Christmas sweater and make yourself a mug of hot chocolate and join us as we celebrate the holidays with some of our special guests from the season that's coming up in two weeks. And by the way, we can recommend Matt's book, no Time to Panic, as a great holiday gift. And it's now out in paperback. Hear more of my conversation with Laquette and Emilia, exclusively at Stage Combat and Patreon. It's the companion content to season three. You can enjoy our original chat podcast, Just Acting and the Mental Health Pod. Not to mention that becoming a member is a great way to support this podcast so we can bring you the content you care about. Just follow the link in the show notes and join the community. A reminder that the content in this episode is not medical advice. Please consult with a medical professional, particularly when it comes to alternative therapies. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith, mixing and sound design or by Justin Gerrish. And it was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions, llc. Do you have a story to tell? Send us a DM at Instagram @StageCombatthePodcast IG or an email @StageCombatthePodcast Gmail.com I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions, llc.