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- [00:04]
Sean Hayden
So remember the first episode of this season? Me, Sean, sitting at the counter of Tom's Diner in New York City with my notebook after you heard the story of my workplace nightmare in seasons one and two. You sent me your stories about toxic producers, cast members, directors and stage managers. And we collected and tapped those and began to tell your stories in this season three. But as we began to tell those stories in this season, we began to receive new messages and stories from you to fill a new tab in that notebook. Stories about the union. Actors Equity association, or Equity for short. It's the labor union that represents American actors and stage managers in the theater. And while Equity did come through for me in my own nightmare workplace story, well, that's not been the case for many of the stories we've told in this season three. Many of you let us know you were confused, disturbed, even angry by the perceived response by Actors Equity in some of these season three stories. Most recently, the union response you heard in Eddie Pendergraaff story in episode 10, another wicked story.
- [01:32]
Eddie Pendergraaff
This is now the second time I've called, right? I'm still Equity deputy.
- [01:35]
Abby Crowley
And what do they say?
- [01:37]
Eddie Pendergraaff
And they say, well, you know, Eddie, we could just. They. They make up their own rules.
- [01:42]
Abby Crowley
That's coming from the union representative.
- [01:45]
Eddie Pendergraaff
Yeah, you can't hear my eyes popping out of my socket when I say that, but that's what they're doing.
- [01:50]
Sean Hayden
And in our first episode, how are we all okay with this? We heard from Brad Bass, who was facing a problematic stage manager while working on Broadway, Jersey Boys.
- [02:00]
Brad Bass
And I went home in tears that day. Cuz I thought, oh my God, there's no way I'm ever going to be able to do my job well for this person. And I called Equity on her because I didn't know what to do. I ended up calling Equity on her twice and nothing ever really happened.
- [02:18]
Sean Hayden
And in that same episode, Brett Shuford was facing his own problems. Back to Wicked again. It was something he and I discussed on his YouTube, YouTube channel last year.
- [02:28]
Brett Shuford
To me, the thing that I get frustrated with, right, these unions. And I was really honestly surprised in the episode where you talk about how the union came through for you.
- [02:40]
Abby Crowley
I'm sure a lot of people were because there's plenty of stories I was.
- [02:43]
Brett Shuford
Waiting for you to say, yeah, they failed me because that has been my situation with Yes. I mean, time and time again, I.
- [02:50]
Abby Crowley
I am fully aware, Brett, of the number of people who do not feel that their union went to bat for them.
- [02:58]
Sean Hayden
So something positive happened after those episodes. The Communications director for Equity reached out to us and suggested that Equity and Stage Combat the podcast, sit down and have an honest conversation about the concerns of our listeners and the union's members, starting with the subject of bullying and harassment, which has been much of the focus of many of the stories in this season three. So we sat down with Abby Crowley. She serves in the newly created position of business representative for Harassment and discrimination, an umbrella that also includes bullying. So I want to be upfront with you about the ground rules we had for this conversation. Equity did set parameters stating they could not address the specifics of particular cases due to privacy concerns. And naturally, they could not address, in this particular conversation, areas outside of Abby's expertise. As such, there will remain some questions after this conversation about the relationship between actors and stage managers, which Equity is open to discussing in the future with different personnel within the organization. But Abby Crowley did come to the table ready for some tough questions. When we're hearing stories about people that did go to the representative and things were allowed to continue in the same way. How can the union expect its members to trust them in the future when they need support? Because, Abby, there is that perception out there.
- [04:41]
Abby Crowley
I hear that, and I think that the onus is on the union to prove to you that you can come to us. The union isn't perfect, and our business reps work incredibly hard. And the other side of that is that they're sometimes overworked. And with overwork comes humanity.
- [05:04]
There can be a failure.
- [05:06]
There can be a failure.
- [05:09]
Sean Hayden
I'm Sean Hayden, and you're listening to episode 14 of season three of Stage the Podcast. Sean has questions for the union.
- [05:22]
Abby Crowley
Abby Crowley, welcome to Stage Combat the Podcast. We're so happy to have you here.
- [05:27]
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
- [05:29]
Sean, we have a lot of questions for you, and so do our listeners. And I just want to say before we even go down this road, that we're really thankful to have someone from Equity to sit at the table with us and just have a constructive conversation about a lot of issues that concern our members, our listeners, when it comes to bullying and harassment on the job.
- [05:53]
Sean Hayden
And I think the first place to.
- [05:55]
Abby Crowley
Start would be, are there any contracts that members would be working under that would not have protection against bullying and harassment?
- [06:05]
Bullying and harassment. Or rather no bullying and harassment clauses are. They're incorporated into all of our full agreements. And the only time that a member is not going to have agreement with that language is if they're working on a showcase code, which is a type of Agreement where we allowed our employers to use Equity actors without using Equity contracts.
- [06:28]
So let me ask you this. What has the evolution of incorporating language against bullying and harassment been with Equity? We told the story of. We're not going to get into the specifics, but we told the story of what happened at Chicago the Musical with Jeff Lofelholz, and my understanding in conversations with Kate Schindel, who was president at the time, that there were changes in language following that incident to provide the members better protections when it comes to bullying and harassment.
- [07:01]
Correct. And something that was huge that came out of that was our use of the vendor service, Lighthouse Services, which turned into our reporting hotline.
- [07:12]
Yeah. So out of that came the hotline. Tell us what that is.
- [07:17]
So Ecwiti partners with Lighthouse Services, which is a part of a company called Centrio, and they offer a secure, confidential online tool to report issues related to discrimination and harassment and bullying. So with Lighthouse, members can file reports where they say, this is me. This is who I am. I want you to reach out to me. I want to be a part of this process. Or it can be anonymous. So Lighthouse is great.
- [07:43]
So this would be a good utility for a bystander who is afraid to be identified. Can it be someone who's witnessing bullying and harassment in the workplace?
- [07:55]
Absolutely. It can be for anyone, about anyone. Hopefully the information is relevant to Equity and that we'll be able to take some action because of some involvement of a member. But Lighthouse is a resource for anyone to utilize.
- [08:10]
Well, see, this is new information to me, Abby, that it could be a bystander, because the thing we keep hearing about is the frustration. Well, I went through this. I went through it myself in the story I told at the Good Speed Opera House is the bystanders who don't do anything. You know, we heard this in some of the wicked stories. I think a lot of this happens because people are afraid. They're afraid of the repercussions if they speak up. And, you know, we've been trying on this podcast to encourage people that there's power in numbers when we speak up. But to know that the hotline is actually has a utility where you can be a bystander and speak up anonymously to hopefully help your fellow member. I think this is immensely important for people to know.
- [08:57]
Right. And we've heard from folks that. I kept getting that response. The, oh, I didn't know that. And we thought that's an issue. The point of these resources is to be utilized. They are doing nothing if our members don't know about them. And so this year, Equity's been rolling out a YouTube tutorial series specifically about Lighthouse. And we've been trying to blast that on our social medias because we want folks to know there is a way to speak up without being scared. There's a lot of fear in this industry.
- [09:32]
Absolutely, Abby. So let's get it right now. What is the hotline number?
- [09:37]
The hotline number is 833-550-0030.
- [09:46]
Sean Hayden
Okay, so if you're listening to this, that information is in the show notes along with the website information for Lighthouse services and the app information you can access through the hotline, the website or the app. And I'm just going to say, if.
- [10:01]
Abby Crowley
You are in the workplace and you.
- [10:03]
Sean Hayden
See bullying and harassment going on, don't just sit there, report it, report it, report it.
- [10:16]
Abby Crowley
So I want to break this down to where the bullying and harassment can come from. Obviously, it can come from a fellow cast member.
- [10:25]
Yeah. I think it's important to note that the definitions of harassment and discrimination and bullying and also the enforcement mechanisms in our contracts, those are consistent no matter who it's coming from. There's no part of our bullying clauses or our definitions that say it's discrimination if it's coming from a producer, but not if it's coming from a stage manager. Discrimination, harassment or bullying can come from any source. It can impact anyone, and it is a contractual violation in all of Equity.
- [10:56]
Agreements, whether it comes from a cast member, a stage manager, or it does not have to be a member, it can be your employer, Right?
- [11:04]
Absolutely.
- [11:05]
How does Equity define bullying?
- [11:08]
The term bullying includes, but is not limited to, verbal or physical conduct that denigrates or shows hostility or aversion towards an individual. Examples of bullying include, but are not limited, threatening infliction of verbal abuse, intimidating or hostile acts, verbal or nonverbal conduct that a reasonable person would find threatening, intimidating or humiliating by one or more persons against another or others at the workplace, in work related activities and or in the course of employment. That is the definition of bullying that is currently in our production agreement that's used on all Broadway shows and is in our other agreements that are used across the country.
- [11:57]
Well, I have to tell you, hearing that, it is a much stronger definition than what I anticipated.
- [12:03]
And it's just the introduction to the no bullying and no harassing clause that is the foundation, the flagship. And then we continue to add more language each cycle, trying to define our weak points that need more support.
- [12:22]
And then is there a separate definition for harassment?
- [12:26]
We separate out sex based harassment and race based. We have sex based discrimination, race discrimination and sexual harassment that were specifically negotiated into the production contract.
- [12:40]
So let's talk in generalities when it comes to producers, and we're gonna, I think, go on to some other potential offenders, for lack of a better word. But a practice that has come up in a lot of the stories of the podcast is this targeting of actors by producers, which appears to be a mechanism to try to get an actor to quit so they don't have to buy them out of their contract. And this could be through either a series of grueling rehearsals or writing up actors for minor infractions or even things that aren't infractions. Obviously, that type of behavior would fall under the definition of bullying.
- [13:28]
Those things would absolutely fall under the definition of bullying and would be viewed as such and taken seriously by the union. Should we understand that something like that is happening?
- [13:38]
And we've heard stories and if you heard something like this was happening, subjecting people to repeated rehearsals where you wear them down and trying to say they're not doing the job correctly, there seems to be a perception that they're trying to build a paper trail, that they could finally say, well, we have just cause to fire you, therefore we don't have to buy you out. So that would fall under bullying.
- [14:04]
Absolutely. And this is where we try to tell our members to trust your instinct and when you feel any sort of initial moment of this could turn into bullying. Maybe I'm being bullied right now, maybe I'm being discriminated against right now. You don't have to even know for sure and know the definition to the smartest thing that you could do to protect yourself then is to begin documenting your interactions with those around you.
- [14:35]
I think you're absolutely right. And I think anyone listening to this had an aha moment when you said to trust your instincts. And what we've been trying to repeatedly say on this. I learned this the hard way. I learned this in the hard way with my workplace story is I kept trying to believe, oh, everyone's going to do the right thing when my instincts were telling me something was horribly, horribly wrong. And you know, particularly as artists, we're tuned in, we should be tuned in as to when we can sense when something is not right.
- [15:09]
It's a very emotionally intelligent group of people.
- [15:12]
We are, damn it, very aware of.
- [15:15]
Instincts because it's a part of your job to be. So it makes sense that that is something that this group and this community of people in particular feel really close to. And it's something I hear all the time in intake sessions, folks saying phrases that I should have known back when this happened.
- [15:33]
Then if your instincts are telling you something's wrong, what is the best way to document that? And let me say this. The people who heard my story at the good speed, a lot of the response I got was they felt like the only reason my particular claim really got taken seriously by the union, because there were horrible things being alleged against me by my employer, was because I was fortunately had legal skills. And, you know, that's not something your average actor has. So in light of that, what is your advice on how to properly document it so that your claim is stronger when it gets submitted to your union?
- [16:18]
Well, at the beginning of each new contract, a member should receive an employer harassment policy from their employer. And that policy tells you if you experience discrimination, harassment, or bullying, if you experience unwelcome misconduct of any kind, here is what you need to do about it. And the employer is telling you their process. That's really important to pay attention to.
- [16:45]
But we're talking about two different things, aren't we? We're talking about the internal reporting to an employer versus if it comes to where you need to go to Equity and say, I need to report something, right?
- [16:59]
Equity's role is to be a source of accountability for the employer. Any report of discrimination and harassment in order to be handled through the proper channels, where there's resolution with the employer, is going to have to go through the employer's process as well. And Equity's goal is to be an accountability source to ensure that they are following their own policy and they are following our shared contract. So the idea that you're reporting to Equity, you are reporting to Equity that you are dissatisfied with the process with your employer.
- [17:35]
But if your problem is with the stage manager, are you saying that you need to go to the producer to report the stage manager first before you go to Equity?
- [17:45]
Some folks do go to the employer for some folks go to Equity first. If you go to Equity, I'm saying that Equity is likely going to tell you you need to go to your employer, but that we can hold your hand while you do it. And we can be there and we can answer questions and we can be a source of support. We can be present in those meetings and we can sometimes have those conversations on your behalf. But whether Equity is looped in before or after a lot of time, the answer is going to be to go to the employer because they're the actual source of change. Within the production equity is just the person that gets to say, hey, you're not following our contract.
- [18:18]
Well, and I think one of the challenges here, Abby, is that. And again, I'll go back to my story. Not all employers are going to have sound conflict resolution procedures in place or people who have skills. And I think my story was a textbook of how not to handle a conflict, and particularly that there were skills lacking. What I've seen in the workplace, my inclination would be to get the union involved sooner than later, which is something I did not do for various reasons, I did not. And in retrospect, I should have. I didn't get them involved until I got fired.
- [18:54]
And I think that. That without speaking to your specific situation, but in general, looping the union in earlier just means that you have a second set of eyes on everything. And another element here is documentation and what the union is able to do whenever we see that there are repeated issues with the same employer. So we have a lot of things that happen when we get multiple reports against an employer or multiple conversations about an employer where we loop in our senior staff, our executive staff, we review their policy. This is a new practice that I have been having a lot of meetings with employers to look at that employer harassment policy that we were talking about and look for areas of improvement.
- [19:44]
Sean Hayden
Well, Abby, I think people's ears just went up hearing about repeated issues with an employer. And I know under the terms of our conversation, you can't talk about specific cases, but what comes to my mind, and I think what people are thinking right now, is how do repeated issues happen on a production? We've told stories about what was happening on Broadway in Wicked, about the stage manager there, a former one, and the repeated issues that happened for years. This question from one of our listeners, from Tom, I think says it best. Tom says, when we're hearing stories about people that did go to the representative and things were allowed to continue in the same way, how can the union expect its members to trust them in the future when they need support?
- [20:33]
Abby Crowley
Because, Abby, there is that perception out there.
- [20:37]
I hear that. And I think that the onus is on the union to prove to you that you can come to us. I think the onus is on us to boost our initiatives and to share more ways to report to. To let people know that when they come to us, there will be action and that we need the proportion of support stories out there to be greater than the proportion of stories where folks are disappointed. And that's the goal. That's what we want to be doing. And you know, the union isn't perfect. And our business reps work incredibly hard. And the other side of that is that they're sometimes overworked. And with overwork comes humanity.
- [21:27]
There can be a failure.
- [21:29]
There can be a failure. And there has been a lot, a lot of change in specifically, I can only speak to my department, discrimination and harassment department. But since the implementation of Lighthouse in 2019 and since honestly the implementation of my position, which is a brand new position in 2022, I feel that there have been many major and important shifts in how equity receives in response to complaints that I hope will be a step in building trust such that a question like that lands differently with people one year, two year, five years from now. But I understand why the failures have disconnected that relationship of trust.
- [22:19]
We had a question from one of our listeners, Brian, and he wanted to know, is there a process when a member makes a complaint to a rep that another rep also reviews it? He says reps that just say, oh, well, that's just the way it's done should no longer be allowed. There needs to be some sort of review process put into place. And I guess what I would add to that is that let's just say I'm being bullied by a stage manager and I go to a rep and they don't do anything, Do I have any recourse to say no? I want to speak to the manager, but is there somebody above that as a member for me to say no? This needs a second look because I'm a member, the union works for me and my fellow members and I want someone else to take a look at this. Does that exist?
- [23:10]
Yes. Whether it is with union staff, with an employer, I hope that our members do feel empowered to advocate for themselves whenever they feel that they are not being assisted the way that they deserve heard. Please. If you feel that you are at a point that you can no longer work productively with a business rep, you are still deserving and entitled to assistance from your union. So if you think that you're really at a dead end with someone, and I hope that our members don't get to that point, please ask that individual for the information of their supervisor, of their senior business representative or their assistant executive director, or you can call your primary office city and get connected to someone else. It's important that our members are able to have a relationship where they feel support from their rep.
- [23:59]
Okay. I think that's big news that people don't realize. So even in cases where a rep is assigned to A particular theater, there would still be recourse that if you were not satisfied with that rep, to say, I want to talk to someone else about the situation. So it goes up the chain?
- [24:16]
Absolutely. It can go up the chain.
- [24:18]
We often hear frustrations from members when it comes to the response time from a business rep to a complaint. And that delay can really cause severe damage to a person's mental health. We've told stories of it evolving into suicidal ideations. What is the current policy on response times? Is Equity taking action right now to reduce the time of the response times?
- [24:45]
It is my personal practice. In any lighthouse report that comes in or any discrimination report that comes to me, I respond within a business day. That does not mean that we reach a resolution or that we're able to provide an answer to the concern in a business day. But within a business day, we're going to say, we received this. We are so sorry that you are going through this. And here is what you can expect in the coming days.
- [25:12]
I think that is great. But then the employee has to keep going to work. And that's what, you know, with that clock ticking. Because what we hear is, well, we have to do an investigation. Are there ways to speed up that process?
- [25:27]
I think that sometimes response times are a consequence of staff availability. We're growing our staff all the time, which means that we're getting more business representatives on our staff so that they're less pulled thin. But also with the incorporation of my role, we have two staff members who are working on discrimination and harassment issues. And I think that in the past two years, I joined Equity in April 2022. There has been a positive difference that we've received positive feedback from our members from in response times. However, that's correct. An investigation can take time, and if you are in an uncomfortable situation at work, that time means that you suffer real consequences. I do think that documentation really speeds things up for us. Whatever you can document and whatever you can bring to us might mean that we need to spend less time speaking to other parties.
- [26:27]
Yeah, I think that was my immediate thought, that if you've gotten a leg up as the member on the documentation, you're allowing that investigation to kind of cut to the chase a little bit quicker.
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Frankie
Yes.
- [26:40]
Abby Crowley
Yeah.
- [26:41]
Yes. And I don't mean to say that to put the onus of the speed of the investigation on our members in those people that are in those situations. If you do not have the time or resources making this extensive and thorough documentation, please do not feel that that means that we're not going to be able to support you. That's also what I'm here for. Even if you haven't documented anything, we can have a conversation to get everything on the record with Equity, make sure that we are informed of all of the details and move forward. So please don't feel that the absence of documentation puts you so far behind that there's no path forward.
- [27:19]
So on the documentation front, I had two very good representatives for my personal claim. That was Jeffrey Bateman and Gary Diamond. But what I did hear from, they said, unfortunately, sometimes the documentation that comes in from the members is somewhat lacking, you know, which I think they were kind of surprised. I came in with like 30 something pages.
- [27:40]
I love that. I love when someone brings me all of the information.
- [27:45]
Well, the more information, the better, right, Abby?
- [27:48]
Right.
- [27:49]
Look, I kind of always say as actors, we're detectives and investigating our roles, right. And figuring all that out. And I think we sort of have to put on that detective hat. In terms of what is the paper trail as to what you've been through, right. In terms of text messages, emails, going out of your way to document conversations as they happen. I know many members are tape recording their sessions with stage managers. You know, it's a legitimate thing to tape your notes, but even, you know, as long as that's done legally and in person, and then I think in terms of being able to tell that in a narrative form when you're presenting that to the rep, what would you add to that?
- [28:34]
So on that private documentation front, I mean, really retaining any accessory to your situation is so helpful. Whether that is a schedule, that's a contact sheet, that's an email, a photo, a timestamp, anything that you feel could be connected. The reality is you never know what detail is going to be crucial. So keep them all.
- [29:00]
I think that is a reality that we are in. And what I would add to that is like, look, these are jobs I've always talked about. Let's get rid of the family word and talk about that. These are jobs. And if you were in a corporate job and you had a discussion about some kind of wrongful behavior that happened, you would follow up in an email, say, thank you so much for this conversation where we talked about that, I told you this, and X, Y and Z. And even if you think it's like it's not going to devolve into something, just go ahead and assume that it might. You know, I don't think you have to be paranoid, but I think you just have to actively document what is happening in your job just like you were in corporate America, because it may become a situation down the road. Do you agree?
- [29:48]
Yes, I agree. I think that if everyone could get into a general practice of that, it'd be really beneficial because it would already be habit. But I understand that we are fighting that tension, that no one wants to believe the bad things are happening to them.
- [30:14]
Abby, this is a tough discussion. Let's talk about the stage manager thing, something that's come up in this podcast. We have had so many listeners reach out to us. And first of all, what I want to say is that I respect and recognize the amazing stage managers that are out there that are working to provide safe working environments that are our fellow members, and that we want them to be afforded with the full rights and privileges of being members, just like actors. And even though we are co members in the same union, let's not kid ourselves. There is a different power dynamic in the workplace by the nature of the responsibilities and the relationship with the producer that the stage manager has in relation to the actor. And there is a perception, maybe you can change this perception for me and for the listeners, but there is the perception that if there are problems with a stage manager on the production, that there is very little that the union can do for an actor if they have a claim for wrongful behavior against that stage manager.
- [31:32]
As you've pointed out, stage managers are members of our union and we do have certain responsibilities to them as a union, like per the nlrb, we have certain things that we owe them as members of our union as well. But those should not be at the cost of safety of other folks in our union. So yes, we do owe our stage managers. For instance, the union cannot advise the termination of our members from a contract. We can't say we think that you should not work with our member anymore. That's not something that is our role or is appropriate for us as a union to say about one of our members. However, we can and do tell our employers, it is your job to cultivate an environment that is free of harassment, discrimination and bullying. And you need to take the actions necessary to restore an environment that is free of those things, because that is what all of our members are contractually obligated to. And that answer can be termination of one of our members. It's just not something that we can openly advocate for.
- [32:58]
So I think I'm hearing that the probably more effective path is to bring your concerns to the union and that the union would address. If there is wrongful behavior by a stage Manager. Again, I want to say we know there's many good stage managers, the vast majority. Okay. But the union could bring that concern of that behavior to the producer and assist on the producer, take corrective action.
- [33:27]
Really, it should go through the exact same process as any other bullying concern in that you are documenting as much as you can what occurred. You're following that employer harassment policy. If you're comfortable formally reporting the issue, or you're coming to the union, whether anonymously through Lighthouse, you're not filing a report, but you're having a conversation with us about your options, or you're asking us to help you file a report with the employer. That process shouldn't change because the behavior is coming from a stage manager. What will change about that situation is a business rep, whoever was initially working with the person who filed the report against the stage manager, they'll continue working with that person, and then we'll have someone else working with the stage manager. So two separate reps assigned to those two separate members.
- [34:18]
Is there anything internally the union can do with regard to a co member who is a stage manager, with regard to a complaint by another member who is an actor?
- [34:31]
Yes, we do have member on member charges that can be taken up internally with the union.
- [34:39]
My understanding, Abby, is that is not something that is within your expertise and your responsibilities. So unfortunately, that is not something that we can address in this conversation.
- [34:53]
Correct.
- [34:54]
And I think that possibly, maybe there can be another conversation with someone in the stage management division that we could talk to at Actors Equity and kind of flesh out this conversation. Because I said this in the podcast, we all want to understand each other and be able to work together because we are in the same union. So hopefully that's a conversation that we could continue with someone else within Equity.
- [35:21]
Right. And what I also think is interesting in that conversation about the relationship between actors and stage managers is not at all to take away from the real concerns with the power dynamic that we've been talking about. There are some stage managers that also feel tension with their fellow actors, particularly in smaller theaters across the country, in smaller towns, who feel that actors are actually prioritized above stage managers. A lot of times you'll have actors who are brought in from the city and you hear.
- [35:58]
I've heard those stories. Yeah.
- [36:00]
They come in and the producers. Actors can do no wrong, but it's the stage managers who absorb the responsibility for any error.
- [36:08]
This is a much bigger conversation that we're just not equipped to have here that we need to have. So, for instance, I know that we want to work on content, where we're looking at what the stage managers go through. There are many ASMs that have been bullied by PSMs. And just like you said, there are many stage managers, particularly in some of the smaller markets, who are facing bullying and really hostile behavior from the actors that come into the workplace or from.
- [36:38]
The producers who stage managers feel that they're receiving hostility from the employer in a way that actors aren't experiencing. That there's a hierarchy, and that stage managers in that specific circumstance are actually on the bottom of.
- [37:00]
When there have been workplace investigations. We told the story about the investigation by Equity into Chicago the musical in 2018. And I understand you cannot comment on specific cases, but my understanding from talking to the president of the union at that time was that that investigation was kept confidential. And I think what many of our listeners would like to know is how do you make change in the workplace if the investigation into potentially harmful practices are kept secret? Because it would seem to me that what that does, it serves to protect the employer. Does Equity have an official policy on that?
- [37:46]
Yeah, I hear that and I hear the concerns there. And Equity's policy is that our investigations are confidential. I'd like to note that doesn't mean that people experiencing things don't have the autonomy to speak on their own behalf. If folks want to share their own experiences and their stories, they're not being forced to remain confidential. But the details of an investigation are oftentimes kept discreet for multiple reasons. So firstly, to protect the rights and privacy of the individuals involved. If you have an investigation that involves, say, six people and one of those people does not want it to be made known that they participated in investigation, they are worried about being seen as difficult. They're worried about retaliation. This is the number one reason that our reports remain anonymous or confidential. People are really, really scared about having their names tied to a concern in a real way.
- [38:49]
I understand that. I understand of the fear from the actors. I talked to actors from Chicago. They're still terrified. What I don't understand is why can't you have findings of fact? Why can't you say, we investigated and found XYZ happened in the workplace, and we've taken these steps with this employer, and this employer has agreed to do X, Y and Z. To me, that's the only way to get change in the workplace. Because, you know, that incident happened, and then still other incidents continue to happen in the workplace. But if you publicly say, this happened at this workplace, this was wrong, and these measures have been Taken, then the other employers take notice of it, and the members of the community are apprised of what their rights are, that that kind of behavior is not okay. The saying is, sunlight is a disinfectant. So I have a real problem with findings of fact being kept secret. I feel as if that only protects the employer. And I feel like, as it's in our best interest as members, that that's made public while still protecting the confidentiality of the individual members.
- [40:03]
Sure, I hear that. And that is a topic of conversation among many of our members and our counselors right now and has resulted in the very recent forming of a tracking and accountability working group. We are hearing from our members, why all of these secrets? Why are these investigations kept secret? What about repeat offenders? I want to know when I audition for an employer, if they've had six issues with equity in the past two years. And we understand that those are real concerns with our members, and they want to be empowered with that information before engaging with an employer. And at the same time, we do have legal obligations to member sensitivity with information. So that working group. I don't have a more satisfying answer about the findings of the working group. It is something that right now there are members meeting together to talk about creating some sort of system where there is public tracking or public accountability. And we need to have those conversations in compliance with our legal responsibilities. So very, very, very early stages on that, but it is happening.
- [41:16]
Good. And I want to continue that conversation with you in the future because I think that is really key to creating change. Abby, many of our members and our listeners tell us about the immense fear they have of reporting a claim for fear of retaliation. One of our actors in one of the episodes, an actor named Brad who was working in Jersey Boys, was fearful of reporting the stage manager there because he thought it was going to make the way he was treated even worse, that there would be retaliation. And what do you say to members who feel that real fear?
- [41:58]
Firstly, I want to say I understand we are in a contract to contract industry. For so many people, that fear of maintaining your reputation, or really that fear of your reputation being tainted by being difficult or being retaliated against or by filing a report, any of those things is sincere. And so I first and foremost want to acknowledge that that's a sincere fear. It is in every single one of our contracts explicitly prohibited. It is prohibited on legal levels. But also retaliation is difficult to define if there's not written clear evidentiary support in this field. We have this idea of creative vision, and we can say that we don't want to work with someone anymore because they just don't fit into the artistic, creative vision of what we're trying to make here. And that is a problem that's really concerning to actors. So really, I just return to this conversation of document, document, document. Follow your instincts. If you are worried, you don't always have to call the union with a full report or a full problem. You can call the union with a question. You can call the union with a. I'm not sure if this is retaliation, but I just want to talk.
- [43:27]
You can call and say, I don't want you to contact my employer. I just want to talk. Yes, I think that's important for people to know.
- [43:36]
That is, with discrimination and harassment issues. If you want to talk through your options without it turning into a full investigation, an Equity rep can have that conversation with you. It is hugely important to us in this era of prioritizing, building trust and rebuilding a relationship with our membership that we are putting their desires at the forefront of our next steps.
- [44:06]
Well, Abby, I appreciate this conversation. I hope that you'll accept our open invitation to come back and speak with us. Look, we're thankful for any opportunity at the team at Stage Combat to have a dialogue with the union. I know we've been talking with people inside the union for a year now about mental health initiatives, so we're going to still continue our work on that. Perhaps we haven't satisfied every listener's concern about every question, but you definitely have given us a lot to think about, and let's use this as a sort of touchstone for future conversations.
- [44:42]
I agree, Sean. I'm really appreciative of the work that you're doing here and the work that you do to share stories and encourage growth in our industry. And if I can impart one thing before I go is please report, report, report. If this episode landed with you in a way that you have information you'd like to share with the union, please, please be in contact. I would love to set up a meeting if there's anything that any of our listeners want to debrief that came to light in this podcast episode for them. So send me an email at a grouse@actorsequity.org and we'll set up a time to speak.
- [45:18]
Fantastic. And that email address is also in the show notes. Thank you, Abby Crowley with Equity for joining us at Stage Combat.
- [45:26]
Thanks, Sean.
- [45:36]
Sean Hayden
Okay, listeners, so what did you think of this first conversation with Actors Equity Association? Do you feel like we are in a new era of the union prioritizing, building trust and rebuilding relationships with its members. As Abby said. Have you had a positive experience with the union since Abby's position was created.
- [45:59]
Abby Crowley
Two years ago that you would like.
- [46:01]
Sean Hayden
To share with us? Did you like what you heard in this conversation? What questions remain unanswered for you? Let us know. And let's keep this dialogue going because it is in talking about these issues that we can find out where our goals are aligned, determine where we have differences, and work together to find real solutions to make the workplace better for everyone. Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat. And Frankie, how would you describe the training in your theater program?
- [46:40]
Frankie
Pain. Fear. They really encouraged tears.
- [46:46]
Sean Hayden
They really wanted you to go there, right?
- [46:48]
Frankie
It was very much, we want you guys to get raw and we want you to get deep. And so that I learned later on in therapy that that actually sort of created more of an open wound in my psyche.
- [47:07]
Abby Crowley
Did it feel like mining for trauma? That's what it sounds like.
- [47:12]
Frankie
It's the definition. The definition of mining for trauma that's.
- [47:18]
Sean Hayden
Coming up in episode 15, Frankie takes a Bow. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith, mixing and sound design work by Justin Gerrish, and it was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden for Heywood Productions llc over at Stage Combat at Patreon. Hear more of my conversation with Abby Crawley of Actors Equity Association. Just follow the link in the show notes and let us know. How did this episode make you feel? Drop us a DM on Instagram stagecombat the podcast IG. You can also email us@stagecombatthepodcastmail.com and we appreciate you rating and reviewing Stage Combat, the podcast on your podcast platform so you can let others know what the podcast means to you. A reminder that the content in this episode is not medical advice. Please consult with a medical professional. This content is also not legal advice, so you will want to consult with an attorney. I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions llc.