"The 'F' Word"

Summary

Stage Combat The Podcast: Episode Summary - "The 'F' Word"

Release Date: November 3, 2024

Introduction

In the ninth episode of Season 3, titled "The 'F' Word," host Sean Hayden delves deep into the pervasive use of the term "family" within the theater industry. This episode explores how the metaphor of family in workplaces can blur professional boundaries, perpetuate dysfunctional dynamics, and contribute to mental health challenges among actors and crew members.

The Problem with "Family" in Theater Workplaces

The episode kicks off with a heartfelt conversation among Sean Hayden, Brett Shuford, and Michael McGurk. Brett shares his early experiences in theater, highlighting how embracing emotional expression in a small-town Texas environment led to feelings of isolation and being "disowned by the community" ([00:56] Brett Shuford).

Sean reminisces about his own struggles with bullying and emotional suppression, noting how theater provided a sanctuary where he could express his true self without judgment ([01:06] Sean Hayden). Brett echoes this sentiment, explaining that theater became his pathway out of a restrictive environment, fostering a sense of belonging and purpose ([02:12] Brett Shuford).

Nicole Perry on Workplace Boundaries

Nicole Perry, an intimacy director based in Miami, offers a critical perspective on the use of "family" in professional settings. She explains that equating the workplace to a family blurs the lines between personal and professional boundaries, making it difficult to maintain healthy interactions:

"The word family... blurs those lines." ([07:45] Nicole Perry)

Nicole asserts that while the term might intend to convey support and camaraderie, it often serves to suppress necessary conversations about conflicts and issues, thereby limiting open communication ([08:39] Nicole Perry).

Corbin Williams: Show Business vs. Show Family

Introducing Corbin Williams, a Broadway performer, the discussion shifts to the importance of distinguishing between professional teamwork and familial relationships. Corbin emphasizes that "show business, not show friends," highlighting the necessity of maintaining professional boundaries to prevent complacency and over-familiarity:

"We're a team. We are not a family." ([11:16] Corbin Williams)

He advocates for clear demarcations between work and personal life, suggesting practices like maintaining separate social media profiles to safeguard professional relationships from becoming overly personal ([14:38] Corbin Williams).

Janine Bruin’s Experiences with Forced Closeness

Janine Bruin from New York City shares her uncomfortable experiences with enforced camaraderie in theater productions. She describes situations where cast members were compelled to bond outside of work, leading to discomfort and blurred boundaries:

"Forcing closeness on a cast is not very respectful of people's individual preferences and boundaries." ([16:32] Janine Bruin)

Janine recounts a particularly troubling incident where she had to share living spaces with a colleague who behaved inappropriately, underscoring the lack of agency actors often face in such environments ([19:37] Janine Bruin).

Michael Passaro’s Insight on Terminology and Power Dynamics

Broadway stage manager Michael Passaro provides an academic and practical perspective on the issue. He traces the etymology of "family" to its Latin roots, emphasizing that the term historically implies servitude, which is inappropriate for professional settings:

"The root word means servant... we would not want to lean into the idea of family and that the employees are servants in any way." ([23:12] Michael Passaro)

Michael advocates for replacing "family" with more appropriate terms such as "colleagues" or "team," which better reflect professional relationships without the baggage that comes with familial metaphors:

"I would suggest colleague... partner in office." ([30:22] Michael Passaro)

He also highlights the negative implications of familial language in perpetuating patriarchal and matriarchal power dynamics, which can stifle effective communication and foster an environment where grievances are swept under the rug ([28:20] Sean Hayden and [28:47] Michael Passaro).

Positive Experiences Highlighting Alternative Dynamics

Contrasting the negative aspects, Sean organizes a heartfelt reunion with former cast members from The Bridges of Madison County. The group reminisces about a positive and supportive work environment that thrived without the imposed "family" dynamic. They attribute their harmonious relationships to genuine mutual respect and shared goals rather than enforced camaraderie:

"There was something really, really special about this group of people." ([31:11] Sean Hayden)

Conclusion and Future Directions

Sean Hayden wraps up the episode by reaffirming the necessity of redefining workplace relationships in the theater industry. He calls for a move away from familial metaphors towards more accurate and healthy terms like "team" or "colleagues." This shift aims to foster environments where professional boundaries are respected, and individuals feel empowered to maintain their personal well-being.

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next installment, which will continue exploring stories from Wicked productions, further unraveling the complexities of workplace dynamics in theater.

Notable Quotes

• Brett Shuford on feeling disowned for his sensitivity:

  "I was totally sort of disowned for doing those things." ([00:26] Brett Shuford)

• Nicole Perry on the drawbacks of using "family" in the workplace:

  "The family word actually... is a way to shut down conversation when things are not going well." ([08:50] Nicole Perry)

• Corbin Williams emphasizing professional boundaries:

  "It's called show business, not show friends." ([11:16] Corbin Williams)

• Janine Bruin on forced cast bonding:

  "Forcing closeness on a cast is not very respectful of people's individual preferences and boundaries." ([16:32] Janine Bruin)

• Michael Passaro on the origins and implications of "family":

  "The root word means servant... we would not want to lean into the idea of family and that the employees are servants in any way." ([23:12] Michael Passaro)

Final Thoughts

Episode "The 'F' Word" of Stage Combat The Podcast provides a compelling examination of how the familial metaphor in theater workplaces can inadvertently foster environments that are counterproductive and harmful. Through personal anecdotes, expert insights, and constructive suggestions, Sean Hayden and his guests advocate for a redefinition of workplace relationships that prioritize professionalism, respect, and clear boundaries.

For those unfamiliar with the podcast, this episode serves as an eye-opening exploration of the hidden dynamics within the theater industry, urging both employers and employees to rethink the language and structures that govern their professional interactions.

Transcript

[Michael McGurk]

I just love talking with three of us.

[Brett Shuford]

It's just.

[Michael McGurk]

It's very.

[Brett Shuford]

It's cathartic, too.

[Michael McGurk]

It just helps with the shared experience of others, really is what. For me, it does.

[Sean Hayden]

I know this should be a podcast episode. It's a Monday evening, and we're three theater guys in mid conversation talking about family.

[Brett Shuford]

Yeah, I mean, I found theater very young, but I genuinely think it's because I was a very sensitive, emotional kid, just very empathic. Still am. And in, like, a small town, Texas, little boys are supposed to be, you know, tough and don't cry. And I was not afraid to do those things, but I was totally sort of disowned for doing those things, you know, in a certain. In a certain way.

[Sean Hayden]

When you say disowned by whom?

[Brett Shuford]

Just by the community. Yeah, right. Like, it was like, who is this? Like, there's something wrong with you? Like, sort of outcast in a way. Right.

[Sean Hayden]

That's my friend Brett Shuford, whom I'm sure many of you remember from the first episode of this season. Brett was the actor from Wicked who was traumatized by his stage manager. Yeah, I remember going through that same thing. I remember being in tears at my church because I was getting picked on being bul. And the pastor telling my dad because my dad was upset about it, and the pastor saying, well, Sean's just sensitive.

[Brett Shuford]

Yeah, no, that was my mom's favorite word. You're just so sensitive. That was, like, her favorite word for me. Like, there was no room for me to have my emotions. It was always like, ugh. Brett is so dramatic. But at the theater, I could express anything, and I would actually get applauded for it.

[Sean Hayden]

If you felt like you couldn't be who you truly were with your own family, did the theater kind of seem like another kind of family that would embrace you?

[Brett Shuford]

Well, I think initially, as a child, I just thought it would help my family see me. Like, I was like, well, this will force them to see me, because they'll come see me in the shows, and they'll applaud for me. Right. Like, they'll be like, oh, we see him.

[Sean Hayden]

Oh.

[Brett Shuford]

But most of the time, my dad would leave it in remission for whatever show I was in. And, you know, like. And sometimes I don't blame him, you know, but as a kid, you know, I really want that, but I do think that it reached a point where I knew this was going to be my way out. And so I was like, okay, like, I can do this, and this will be my way out of this town and this system, and I can go find, like, if this is what being in theater is like, then I want to do this for the rest of my life.

[Sean Hayden]

And Michael, what about you? How did you kind of find your way into theater and what were you looking for in theater?

[Michael McGurk]

I did identify in similar ways of just growing up in Pittsburgh. I just remember from my childhood, I just did not fit in.

[Sean Hayden]

And that's Michael McGurk. You might remember Michael from one of our talk backs in season one of this podcast and also on our bullying episode for our mental health podcast on Patreon.

[Michael McGurk]

I was very short. I was very blonde and looking. I mean, listening to tapes from when I was a kid, I had this really high, effeminate voice. It was so obvious I was gay. And it was just like, I just did not fit in. I didn't understand it, but I was so, so very happy until I realized I didn't fit in. And once I realized I didn't fit in, and my mother always tells me there was just a change in you. You went from this kid that always was so joyous and free and just, I don't know, neurotic, so to speak. So then I found theater, and it was a place I did fit in. It wasn't perfect, but it was home, as they say. And when we think of the word family, I did have a good immediate family situation, but the theater did become my home because there I could truly fit in. And thinking of making that a life and a career was like, oh, my gosh, this is all I need in life. You know, it was an escape from high school, where I was bullied, you know, and so that became family for me, going into school and making it a career. And for a while it worked until it didn't. Until you're bullied in theater.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah.

[Brett Shuford]

Yeah. I think that there was a moment when we started, like, Michael and I started really performing around the same time. I think of, like, two of my first professional experiences were with you, Michael. But I remember the feeling I had doing those shows being so young, of, like, I found it, like, I feel like I belong here. I feel like I did it, like, once we started. And also we would end up booking shows with the same people around the same time. It did start to feel a bit like a family. And then you would hear people do interviews. I'll never forget who some big celebrity came was on Broadway. I think it might have been Hugh Jackman when he did Boy from Oz and some interview. And he was like, you know, I Can't do an Australian accent, but he's just like, you know, there's no family like the Broadway community. The Broadway community is the true family, and you can't get this anywhere else. And I was like, yeah, I'm ready to be a part of that, you know?

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And then we would hear it in our jobs, like, we would hear the director, the producer kind of say, hey, we're all one big family. Right. So it was just all kind of reinforced the notions maybe, what we were looking for.

[Michael McGurk]

I remember at the show where I was bullied, they, you know, well, we're a family that. It's a dysfunctional family, but you're still not a part of it. Basically, like, okay, you can all be.

[Brett Shuford]

Dysfunctional, and that's okay.

[Sean Hayden]

That's okay.

[Michael McGurk]

We're just gonna accept that.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. It's like, sean, you are part of the Billy Elliot family, but we're firing you over the phone, so please leave.

[Brett Shuford]

Well, that was kind of what I think the thing you and I talked about, I think when I mentioned family, was this idea of, like, if you've always been seeking family, then what is family to you? And if you've never experienced it, and then you come into a community of people who've never experienced it, and they're all trying to create a family, and you. You're just going to end up with a dysfunctional system.

[Sean Hayden]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Brett Shuford]

I sometimes wonder, and it's not worth really thinking too much about.

[Sean Hayden]

No, no. What? Tell me.

[Brett Shuford]

It just pops into my brain every now and then. Like, if I had had a more emotionally available family system growing up, would I have ever really preferred pursue the theater professionally?

[Sean Hayden]

My talk with Brett and Michael that night really got me to thinking about family. It's a word that's probably on everyone's mind right now, with Thanksgiving just a few weeks away. But I'm not thinking about the effect of that word at the holiday table. I'm wondering, what is the effect of the use of family and the places where we work? I'm Sean Hayden, and you're listening to episode nine of season three of Stage Combat, the F word. So, Nicole, I have a feeling you have a few thoughts about the use of the word family when it comes to our workplaces and fellow cast members, Fellow company members.

[Nicole Perry]

I don't like it. That's. That's my thought. I don't like it.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, you don't like it. That's Nicole Perry, a friend of the podcast who is also an intimacy director based in Miami, Florida.

[Nicole Perry]

Like the word family, because it is a workplace. And that's something that, as an intimacy professional, I'm always bringing up and trying to reorient our thought process when it comes to boundaries, when it comes to how we interact with each other as humans, it's always about, how do I take care of myself so I can do this work? How do I take care of my seed partner so that we have a good working relationship so that we can do this work? We all have boundaries in our real lives, in our personal lives, and those are probably different than our work boundaries. And that family word blurs those lines.

[Sean Hayden]

So when a director or producer or company manager tells the cast and crew we're all one big family, what kind of message is that sending?

[Nicole Perry]

I suspect the message they want it to be sending is we support each other, we all get along. This is a great place to be. The message that it actually is sending is it's a way to shut down conversation when things are not going well, when there is an issue. And so that family word actually, I think, limits communication.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And then it sends certain messages then among the cast and crew. Right. Because if our employer has told us we are all family, then what is that doing in terms of messaging amongst ourselves?

[Nicole Perry]

Yeah, I think. I mean, it does give us a certain expectation of each other, maybe of care, of interest. That doesn't come with the title of co worker. But then when those people mess up or they hurt us, what do we do with that? Because they're family. Right. And, like, does it become, again, a personal issue instead of a professional issue when there are professional ways to deal with these things? So I think it messes with our expectations of each other.

[Sean Hayden]

And so, Nicole, I also think that the use of that family word, I mean, I'm thinking about it. We physically touch, we embrace, we're intimate with family members in a way that we would not want to be and should not be with our co workers on the job. So there's a danger from that respect, right?

[Janine Bruin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Perry]

I think we have with our own families, like, some teasing and some. Some things that we would say to our families that we would not say to strangers. Right. And those are not appropriate in the workplace. And a level of just touch that is culturally part of your family that is not appropriate for a workplace. And I am encouraged that. I think this younger generation of actors, they have better expectations of being able to communicate their boundaries, that other people have boundaries, that their workplaces should be professional. And I think that's really exciting. And I just saw this TikTok from Corbin Williams.

[Sean Hayden]

Have you seen this, Corbin Williams? No.

[Nicole Perry]

You definitely need to check it out.

[Sean Hayden]

I'm going to go check that out Right now on TikTok. Thanks, Nicole.

[Nicole Perry]

Sure. Shine.

[Corbin Williams]

Hi, my name is Corbin. I'm currently a part of the Broadway national tour of Beetlejuice. And the purpose of this page and the podcast is to help me help you, help all of us go from working harder to smarter. It's called show business, not show friends. I'm not saying that you can't have genuine relationships, but this business is fickle. She's hard. She will test you.

[Sean Hayden]

You.

[Corbin Williams]

You will make sacrifices in return. So, again, I say we are a team. We are not a family.

[Sean Hayden]

And just a few days after speaking with Nicole, I was chatting with Tiktoker Corbin Williams. Hey, Corbin, how you doing?

[Corbin Williams]

I'm doing good. How are you?

[Sean Hayden]

What's the idea behind your TikTok and how did you come to create it?

[Corbin Williams]

So, for me, the impetus behind my TikTok was I'd gotten out of school and we had a business course, but it wasn't as in depth and as thorough as it could be. So I kept thinking to myself, oh, my God, how good would it be if there was just an actual business course that talked about moving to market? Because I feel as though sometimes we as artists will neglect the business for the sake of the art.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, it's kind of like most people are looking more at can I sing, dance and act versus how do I negotiate and maneuver myself in the business? That's where you're coming from, right?

[Corbin Williams]

Yes. Because I feel as though, and I say this all the time to the kids, this is called show business, not show friends.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, that was one of your TikToks that jumped out to me. Do you think people kind of confuse show business with trying to find a group of friends or even a family is what we're talking about in this episode. It's not show family. I assume that's what you would agree with as an extension of that.

[Corbin Williams]

Yeah. And for me, my own personal story, having come from a military family, having coming from a government family, I just always saw things very different. And that was something that my parents had instilled in me at a very young age, is that they're your colleagues. And sometimes colleagues is a good enough place to be.

[Sean Hayden]

So what do you think the danger is when we confuse show business with some sort of idea of show family complacency? What do you mean by complacency?

[Corbin Williams]

Because we get too comfortable. You're in there to do the work. Don't talk about your personal business. Don't talk about the gossip on the streets that week. Don't talk about anything that is over compromising. I think there's a place where both the business and the art can coexist within one person. It is hard to do, but when you look at those in show business who do it well and who do it successfully, it is 2 caps. So to answer your question in a roundabout short way, I think it's we get complacent and with that complacency we get comfortable and over familiar because all in the sake of family.

[Sean Hayden]

What is the feedback been like on TikTok from your followers? What kind of comments do you get?

[Corbin Williams]

I have been overwhelmingly surprised by not only the level of support but just the level of agreeance. So I'm just grateful that it is resonating with people, especially those at the beginning of their career or who are in that educational framework which is the foundation.

[Sean Hayden]

What's a tip you can give us to help us maintain the right boundaries between our work and our personal lives?

[Corbin Williams]

Something as simple as from a cast perspective. And this is just a practice that someone had taught me. So I've implemented this. And sometimes people think that this might be a bit much. I don't add my bosses on social media, nor do I think anybody should add their bosses if I'm frank. Because again, that starts to bite in that step of over familiarity. Because we get too family. Right. We get too comfortable, we get too familiar. We want to share this post and how this travel day went and we went to this bar, we went out to this. Don't even add some of your cast on social media. And if you do either have a separate Instagram account or have your specified friends list.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, I think you have a good point because what happens, people go into show and then everyone hits you with, you know, a follow request from the entire show versus why aren't we having one? That's our professional Persona and then, you know, our personal profile.

[Corbin Williams]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

Where we can be more selective because we just met these people, we don't know them. Right. So yeah, I like that idea of maintaining two separate profiles.

[Corbin Williams]

Some people think that's a bit much. And if it is, then okay, I hear you.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And it's what's right for a person. One person may want to have more boundaries, but it seems like it's a good suggestion to try to maintain that separation. Well, Corbin, I think you're great. I love what you're doing.

[Michael McGurk]

Thank you.

[Corbin Williams]

I appreciate it. Thank you, Sean.

[Sean Hayden]

After talking to Corbin, I started thinking maybe Nicole was onto something. Maybe the younger generation of actors do have a different perspective on this whole family thing. Something much different than what Bret, Michael and I were conditioned to as young actors. Because I was soon hearing similar thoughts from some of our young listeners, such as Janine Bruin from New York City.

[Janine Bruin]

You know, I've worked in environments where I haven't been comfortable around everyone in the cast. And so I think it's about the people in positions of authority in the room setting the tone. Right from the beginning, which I've rarely seen done. I very rarely have heard a director say on day one, hey, so this is a work environment. This is a professional environment. I was listening to an interview. A well known Broadway director was being interviewed about their process directing a show. And she was talking about how her goal during rehearsal time was to ensure that the cast would be as close as possible, that they would spend as much time together as possible. There was like a trip scheduled out of town for cast bonding purposes. And while I think the intention is good, what if someone were to say, I don't really want to spend my outside time with the people I work with. Right. And so I think forcing closeness on a cast is. It's not very respectful of people's individual preferences and boundaries.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. I think a lot of directors will assume that they need to do that to be able to get the cast to convey certain relationships on stage.

[Janine Bruin]

Right.

[Sean Hayden]

In the storytelling of the play or the musical. I don't know why the assumption is that we have to be hanging out in all of our free time versus why don't we just use our skills as actors? Because it is acting.

[Janine Bruin]

Right.

[Sean Hayden]

Because you can tell in an audition. Can people convey those relationships?

[Janine Bruin]

That's exactly right. If you are a good actor who has a strong skill set, you're able to convey all of those things.

[Sean Hayden]

Have you personally felt uncomfortable in the workplace due to a blurring of the lines because of this family concept?

[Janine Bruin]

Absolutely, yes. In my experience doing regional contracts, it can be very, very difficult to draw that line Right. Between work hours and personal hours, especially if you're living with the people you're working with. It's a very unusual circumstance.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. And it's also the idea of being out of town. Right. So, yes. You don't have that same sort of structure if you're working a job in the town where you live. Right. But now you go out of town, you're put up in housing and so those boundaries really can disappear.

[Janine Bruin]

Yes. And the circumstances are just. They're just to be living with strangers, people you've just met.

[Sean Hayden]

It's weird.

[Janine Bruin]

It's weird. You know, I remember one contract I worked out of town. There was a person in the cast who was notorious over the course of our rehearsal time for being inappropriate, particularly with some of the female cast members. This was a male cast member, and I was not comfortable with him. But guess what? I had to live across the hall from him. I had to share a bathroom with him. So I had no opportunity to have a say in my boundaries and my personal space. I had no choice. Right. That's the housing that was available for the actors. And there was nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to quit the contract, quit the job. So I think it's really a discussion about, you know, making sure that actors are comfortable. You have the right to be comfortable, and you don't have to accept anything less than that.

[Sean Hayden]

And you have the right to boundaries.

[Janine Bruin]

You have the right to boundaries.

[Sean Hayden]

So as I was putting together this episode and exploring this idea of family, I met Broadway stage manager Michael Passaro. He's been stage managing for 35 years, and most recently, you might have seen his work on Broadway in Moulin Rouge, the Cher show, and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Get this. He's also a professor. He teaches the future stage managers of our industry, stage management students at Columbia University. And I really wanted to get Michael's unique perspective of what he thought of the use of the family word in our industry. Michael, it's so nice to have met you. You've seen and stage managed a lot of shows on Broadway. You've seen a lot of stuff.

[Michael Passaro]

I have.

[Sean Hayden]

And in the course of all the years that you've worked on Broadway, have you heard this family word? Have you heard the producer or someone with the company say to everyone words to the effect we're just one big family here?

[Michael Passaro]

Absolutely. I mean, from the beginning of my career on Broadway and beyond, it's a word and an idea that enters the workplace at almost every intersection that I can remember. I think that in this day and age as stage managers, we are very, very, very intentionally trying to put actions to words in terms of the idea that words matter, you know, and words have always mattered to me. And if you go back to the root word, you know, the etymology, the history of what that word comes from, it's from a Latin word called famulus, which means servant. So I think under any objective lens, that we're Talking about in terms of workplace dynamics, I don't think, and especially in the theater industry, I don't think that we would want to lean into the idea of family and that the employees are servants in any way.

[Sean Hayden]

Michael, you've really taken a deep dive to the root of this, literally.

[Michael Passaro]

I think it's important to see those histories of words because, as I said, you know, words matter.

[Sean Hayden]

So I want to try to understand from your standpoint as a stage manager, and we've talked about stage managers in this podcast, but from the standpoint that they sort of are like the air traffic controller of a production. So when you hear that family word in the workplace in your position as a stage manager, and you're thinking about in terms of how you're going to work within that organization and with the cast, so what is your visceral reaction to hearing that family word used, and what are you thinking in terms of how that's going to affect the employer, employee relationships in that workplace?

[Michael Passaro]

Well, I mean, I've had this conversation with some of my employers who have actively used this word and idea. And in smaller conversations with management groups on those productions, I have sort of raised my hand to say, I don't think that we should be using this word in the workplace. And to kind of go back to this 2D, 3D, 4D model that I talk with my students about. You know, there's the definition on the page that we just spoke about in terms of family, the 3D model of that is your own personal lived experience and your relationship with this idea of family, whether it's, to use two very binary terms, positive or negative. And then there's the 4D relationship where your lived experience comes into contact with a lived experience of other people. And there's either a convergence of ideas or a divergence of ideas. And it's usually when there's a divergence of ideas that things begin to get confusing, complicated and messy. Especially if this is coming from the employer of record.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, because we're laying something on top of an employee employer relationship, which is already a challenge. So why would we lay something on top of that that has so much baggage that can make that employee employer relationship more difficult to manage, is what I'm kind of thinking.

[Michael Passaro]

Totally. And I think we're in agreement about that. And I think, as I said, that the more that folks like yourself bring up these issues and these kind of forums, the more that we're doing to help ourselves, especially stage managers, you know, be more effective leaders in the workplace. There's Been a lot of talk about doing better in terms of just communication and words. Words matter. Intent versus impact. I know amongst many of my colleagues on Broadway, we are actively working to remove such descriptors in the workplace as chorus boys and chorus girls. I mean, just think of those phrases. Not only do they have a meaning that's adjacent to the family concept, but also, I think, infantilizing. And also for folks who may be really questioning or working through issues and challenges of gender identity, you know, potentially harmful.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah. You know, I just want to jump in here, too, and I want to say, and to our listeners, there are many stage managers like you who are thinking about these things, who want the workplace to be better for everyone, and I applaud you for that and the other stage managers like you who are doing that. But I think you bring up a really good point, that this family word, by implication denotes this parent, child relationship. But there is this infantilizing of actors, whether it's coarse, boys, course, girls. You know, it's like chorus line, let me see the boys, let me see the girls. But I'm even thinking about the way that, you know, we approach, and I've talked about this. We don't just come out and say, we need something. We kind of do it like a child. I call it the pretty please approach, where we sort of do this thing like, oh, I'm so sorry I have to ask this, but, you know, it would be really great. And, oh, I'm so sorry again, but if you could just do this for me. Right, exactly.

[Michael Passaro]

And I think that there's an adjacent part of this conversation as well, that many, many, many of the descriptions and roles and responsibilities of stage managers going way back when, actually use the words the mom and dad of the production.

[Sean Hayden]

Yes.

[Michael Passaro]

Because that is. It's completely incorrect and very, very, very difficult for anybody to, you know, live up to those descriptors A and B. Why would we. It puts into place all sorts of patriarchal, matriarchal power dynamics that we as stage managers shouldn't be asked to adhere to, and nor should any cast member be asked to sort of be in the subsidiary positions. If you use those words, boys, girls, children, it's a terrible, terrible, terrible use of those words in terms of the work we do as stage managers.

[Sean Hayden]

Michael, do you also think that the use of the family word can impose an idea or an obligation of loyalty into the workplace? In the sense of because we're family, then perhaps we sweep some things under the rug, or we let some things go, we ignore harmful Behavior, because, hey, we're family, and families sort of keep their secrets together.

[Michael Passaro]

Yeah, I've been lucky personally in that I have not experienced a lot of that, but I know that it exists out there, and I don't want to take away from anybody's experience in terms of that. And the other thing that is sort of adjacent to this is this idea that has been part of the Broadway legacy, for better or worse, for many years, that, you know, if someone, you know is speaking up or advocating for themselves, the response sometimes can be, well, you know, listen, this is what it is. If you don't like it, there are 150 people who we can get to come take your place. I think that is a terrible, terrible idea that needs to be sort of excised from our conversation in terms of workplace environment on Broadway and beyond.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, it's the disposability of the talent, the actor, the crew member. Right. Which has been a long standing problem. Michael, you sent me an article and I loved this. Someone said in one of these articles, when we're looking at the employer employee relationship and talking about this context of family, maybe we don't need a metaphor to lay on top of it. Maybe we should just do away with the metaphors and just talk about, in terms of being employer, employee, and how are we working towards the same goals? What are your thoughts about that?

[Michael Passaro]

I agree with that. I would say that if we're looking to substitute a word, I would suggest colleague. If you go back to the root definition, the history of that word.

[Sean Hayden]

You've done your research again, right, Michael?

[Michael Passaro]

Well, I'm a college professor. My day or night, I don't know anymore. The root word means partner. Partner in office. And I think that that's a way that I. And I use that word all the time. Colleagues, you know, with my students, use cohort. So to denote a group of people working toward the same goals. I think that those are words that I would offer as possible suggestions for substituting the family ideal.

[Sean Hayden]

I like those words, Michael. I like those a lot.

[Michael Passaro]

I do, too.

[Sean Hayden]

Do you remember, Shawn? I know most of you are going to laugh that we all sent each other Thanksgiving email. It was that text thread.

[Janine Bruin]

And then the following year, the following.

[Sean Hayden]

Year, Thanksgiving, we were sending pictures of each other of what we were cooking for Thanksgiving. Like, it just. There was something really, really special about this group of people.

[Janine Bruin]

There just.

[Sean Hayden]

There was. There really was. It's crazy, right? It's been seven years. Seven years. Years. That's actor Kirsty Kernahan. And this Evening. I'm reuniting with her and actors Juliet Lambert Pratt, Frank Mastrone, Greg Roderick, and Mia Scarpa. We're reminiscing about a production of the musical the Bridges of Madison county, in which we were all cast members. I played Robert the photographer. I think I did send an email to all of you saying, like, a Bridges family reunion. I don't even know if family is the right word. We'll talk about that later. But look, I can just speak for myself. I've talked about shows where it was not so great, and the Bridges experience, in my mind, was just one of those perfect experiences where it was just a nice group of people that seemed to care and respect each other. Amen.

[Michael Passaro]

Very much so.

[Sean Hayden]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Michael Passaro]

Yeah. Very much so.

[Janine Bruin]

Everybody was so. Just so good to me, and I think about that show all the time.

[Sean Hayden]

I feel very close to all of you, and I still do after seven years. Yeah. Even though we don't see each other on a regular basis, hardly ever. And this was not a production where there was someone in management saying, we are one big family, which is what we've talked about in this episode. Just sort of happen, whatever that relationship was. Do you agree?

[Michael Passaro]

Yes, I absolutely agree.

[Sean Hayden]

What do you think, Greg? It could have just as easily been a small group of people, and things went south, you know, where there was one or two bad apples and we all just kind of hated each other. But for some reason, it was the right combination. Juliet, you played Francesca. What are you thinking right now?

[Janine Bruin]

I think that a lot of it.

[Michael Passaro]

Had to do with the material we were working with. It was just such a special piece, an intimate setting and a small group of people that all seemed to sort.

[Sean Hayden]

Of drop their egos and just work towards the goal.

[Janine Bruin]

I mean, at this particular theater, we.

[Michael Passaro]

Didn'T have a lot of time either. So we really were forced into a bonding.

[Sean Hayden]

And we were lucky enough that we.

[Michael Passaro]

Liked each other so much.

[Sean Hayden]

The two of you had such an enormous amount of material, so it was very clear early on we just needed to sort of stay out of your way and give you support. And we knew that then you would bring your best performances. And I just think that we all realized that when one wins, we all win. So it just sort of bonded that way. Yeah. And I remember Juliet because we spent so much time together. Yes. I remember us just really admiring the work of all the actors right when we would have the chance to watch what the other actors were doing. So let me ask you this. In the course of investigating this family word, in this Episode. Even in the great circumstance that we were all in, I'm kind of convinced that maybe family is not the right word. And I'm wondering, if we're not the Bridges family, what else could we call ourselves? Mia, what are you thinking?

[Janine Bruin]

I think as somebody who does work with my biological family professionally, and I have for decades.

[Sean Hayden]

You literally work with your own family in the theater?

[Janine Bruin]

I literally work with my biological blood related family in the theater. But when we work together, I call him Gary. I always refer to him as Gary. When we were co directors on theatrical projects, and I would say to our cast, I need to not be his daughter. But when they're not related to you, either by blood, by adoption, or by the actual nuclear family that you exist in, I do think that the lines can get blurred sometimes. Sometimes it can be hard to, like, I don't know. And not just in the theater, in any profession. I'm a teacher as well. I've worked in corporate. Like, asking for what you're worth when money is being exchanged. That can get a little blurry sometimes. Advocating just like, for what you need in a dressing room or in a classroom. So for me, I mean, you're asking Sean, what would be a better word? I really saw us, I think, just as a team. I felt like we were a team, that we. In order to get that show on its feet in front of those people every night, everybody had to show up and work together and contribute something. So I felt like it had a real teamwork aspect to it.

[Sean Hayden]

I think the team is actually maybe a better term because if you think of, like a team, like a sports team, there is a familial feel to the team. All have to work together to achieve this, win a common goal. Yeah, yeah. Frank, I like the word paisan. Paisan.

[Michael Passaro]

It's an Italian word. It means we're from the same place in Italy.

[Sean Hayden]

Say it again.

[Michael Passaro]

Okay.

[Sean Hayden]

Paisan or paisan.

[Michael Passaro]

Neapolitans say paisan.

[Sean Hayden]

T a I, S, P a I.

[Michael Passaro]

S a N o n. And it means we're from the same place, we have the same background. And I think that's a nice word too, you know? And so to work in a small theater in Norwalk, Connecticut, doing a really hard show, especially you, Sean and Juliet. Why are you doing it? You're not doing it for the money. It's not a career move.

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, we certainly. We're not doing it for the money, guys.

[Michael Passaro]

Right? You're doing it because you love this.

[Janine Bruin]

Yes.

[Michael Passaro]

And I think Sean being a tenor, or maybe A high baritone now. I listened to the men's voices with a very unforgiving tone, and I just thought your genuine nature of approaching it so honestly and so simply.

[Sean Hayden]

It took all the focus off of.

[Michael Passaro]

The other stuff and made it about what was going on on the stage. It really did. And there was an authenticity to your and Juliet's performance that sort of created an atmosphere that we all just sort of latched onto. I think it had a lot to do with great leadership, and I think we were all a bunch of pisogs.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, now I just want to cry.

[Michael Passaro]

No, don't cry.

[Sean Hayden]

I wanted to earlier.

[Janine Bruin]

All the sweet things people have been saying.

[Sean Hayden]

I just love all you guys. I love all you guys. Me too. I love all you guys, too.

[Nicole Perry]

Yeah.

[Sean Hayden]

So team or whatever we're calling ourselves, I guess we should be exchanging what we're cooking for Thanksgiving over text message. Absolutely. Should we do it again this year? Yes.

[Janine Bruin]

Yes.

[Sean Hayden]

Yes, we should. Let's do it. Let's do it. Sitting at the counter of Tom's Diner later that night, eating cherry pieces, I. I'm thinking, where am I after this investigation of the F word? Well, I don't want it in my workplace. So I'm asking our employers to allow us as cast and crew, to maintain healthy boundaries amongst ourselves and let us work as a. Well, I do like the word team. And if within that team, I do experience the joy that comes from people who, by virtue of meeting in a workplace, have earned the right to become dear friends, I'm open to that. Yeah, I'm definitely open to that. That. Coming up on the next episode of Stage Combat. Since that episode aired, we have heard many more stories from actors about their time at Wicked. We asked them if they would like to share their stories. The responses ranged from they were either too fearful of what they called the Wicked machine, or it was simply too painful of a part of their life to reopen. But then there's actor Eddie Pendergraft. Hey, Eddie.

[Michael Passaro]

Hi, Sean.

[Sean Hayden]

Are you ready to go back to Wicked?

[Michael Passaro]

What a heavy question to ask.

[Michael McGurk]

I usually don't like talking about it right out the gate, but once you've.

[Sean Hayden]

Been with me for a while and we start to get to know each.

[Michael Passaro]

Other, I'll say they'll ask me, like.

[Michael McGurk]

What is it you used to do?

[Sean Hayden]

And I'm like, well, I was a Broadway performer. What show?

[Michael Passaro]

Wicked.

[Sean Hayden]

Oh, my God. Wicked.

[Michael Passaro]

You were in Wicked? Oh, my God.

[Michael McGurk]

That's so amazing.

[Michael Passaro]

Why don't you do it anymore? And it's taken me a while to answer that question, I finally have come up with a way to say it.

[Michael McGurk]

And I say, I want you to.

[Sean Hayden]

Think about the worst relationship you've ever been in.

[Janine Bruin]

Got it?

[Michael McGurk]

Now I want you to tell me why you're not still in that relationship.

[Sean Hayden]

Hearing these stories makes me wonder what's going on at Wicked. And hearing Eddie's story causes me to ask, are there consequences when you speak up for yourself while working at Wicked? I'm Sean Hayden and you're listening to episode 10 of season three of Stage Combat, another Wicked story. Eddie hey Stage Combat listeners. The conversation continues over at Patreon with our Backstage Pass. Hear more of my conversation with Broadway stage manager Michael Pissaro and how working at McDonald's influenced his entire career.

[Michael Passaro]

At McDonald's, you are working with a very disparate group of humans who have come from all kinds of different backgrounds and skill sets and lived experiences and you are required to collaborate very actively together on creating a product in a very specific time frame.

[Sean Hayden]

And I'll be diving deeper into this episode and our Sean Goes Off Script segment. Did you know that right now our backstage pass holders are also enjoying an all new episode of our acting podcast, Just Acting with Boston Conservatory professor of Acting, Christopher Webb. Join us as Chris and I talk about not being afraid to fail.

[Brett Shuford]

I invite students to allow for the possibility of something to happen, not knowing what that something is and it's that allowance for the unknown to occur that is surrounded by this idea of the possibility of failing. Whatever failing means to the student.

[Sean Hayden]

And if you believe in what we're doing in this podcast and you want us to continue to do our work at Stage Combat, the best way you can support us is to become a member today at Stage Combat at Patreon. Just follow the link in the show notes. A reminder that the content in this episode is not medical advice. Please consult with a medical and or a healthcare professional. This episode was edited by Alex Griffith, Mixing and sound design were by Justin Garish and it was written and directed by me, Sean Hayden or Heywood Productions llc. Do you have a story to tell? Send us a DM at Instagramtagecombatthepodcast IG or email [e-mail] I hope today and every day brings you an opportunity to claim your story. Stage Combat is a production of Heywood Productions llc.