← Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast
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- [00:04]
Greg Kokel
Sa well, hello, friends. Greg Kokel here and. And I'm glad you joined me today. We're off schedule for this show, which means we're going right to open mic calls and love to have them. In fact, this particular list of Open my calls says 2023. Open my calls. Is that not ACC. That's just an old thing because it hasn't been that long. Oh, that's when we started. She hasn't changed the title. Okay. But what we do is we try to mostly take the oldest calls first, first in, first out kind of thing, and sometimes it takes a while. Now if you want to participate in open mic calls, not hard. You don't have to call into the show when the show is live and talk to Amy, then talk to me after you've waited for other callers. A lot of people do that. We're glad for that. It makes it more fun to have an interaction with a caller. But many people can't do that. And so we made provision for them with open mic calls and they can just go to our homepage str.org and under podcast there's a live podcast section and you'll see the prompts that will allow you to record your question right there on the computer and then it'll go in the queue and eventually it'll come up to me. Most of the time, most of the questions that are asked, I will answer once in a while. I just don't have an answer or nothing that I think is going to be a contribution for the caller or for the rest. So we might pass that by. But generally we get to them. It just takes a while to do so. So I wonder if we would have a timestamp on each of these calls so I know how long ago they called them in. But in any event, here we go. So let's hear from Silas first. He has a question about God speaking to us.
- [02:33]
Silas
Hey, Greg and Amy, My name is Silas and I'm from Mena, Arkansas. And my question is about God speaking to you and moving through you and stirring your heart. I had recently read your Does God Whisper? Three part series and really enjoyed it. But I was wondering, how can we tell that God is speaking to us and it's not our own thoughts? One of our pastors at our church said it once like this. If something you're thinking is not normally like you, then it is probably God. And a few examples he gave was if you're walking on the street and think to give someone five bucks or something like that, or the other Night I was at home and I was thinking, oh, maybe I should fast tonight. Just like kind of out of the blue. But I was also pretty hungry and it might just because I had a long day at work and I didn't want to make food or something. But just kind of funny example there. But I was just curious on, on what you thought and really appreciate you and Amy's work and the whole team. All right, thank you, man. Bye. Bye.
- [03:42]
Greg Kokel
All right, Silas, man, thank you for the call. I appreciate it. It gives me a chance to clarify some things. You have listened to the. Or read, rather the piece I wrote, which was a compilation of three solid grounds titled what is it called? Does God Whisper? And we put those into a booklet that you can purchase where it's all together, and it's called the Ambassador's Guide to the Voice of God. And what's kind of ironic about the title is that doesn't guide you to the voice of God at all because it makes the case that the Bible doesn't teach that there is a voice of God the way many people are characterizing it. Of course, there is the word of God, which is the voice of God in written form that we hold to aggressively and dogmatically, if you will, and are deeply convinced based on what that revelation says, that there is no need for us to develop the ability to hear the voice of God. Because the Scripture doesn't instruct on that issue, doesn't imply that we need to develop that issue. And as I wrote in a recent Solid Ground, When God Speaks, that's the title of the piece. I made the point that when God Speaks, you can't miss it, so you're not going to be scratching your head. I made that point for two reasons. One of them is just kind of a logical thought process. God doesn't try. He does. He doesn't give it a shot. And see if you are paying attention. And if you're not paying attention, too bad for God. And no, he doesn't try. He accomplishes what he sets out to do, what he wills and uses his power to accomplish, it gets done. That's called sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience. All of those are working together to give us confidence that God accomplishes what he wants to accomplish. And if he wants to speak to you, he will speak. He spoke to Balaam through a donkey. God got a donkey to talk to Balaam, no problem. Paul the apostle, then known as Saul, and actually later on called Saul too. We see both names used in the Book of Acts, it isn't like he changed his name, but in any event, Saul, on the road to Damascus. Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me, man? He heard that clearly, and he was unregenerate. No Holy Spirit in him, and he was off persecuting and putting to death Christians, yet he had no trouble hearing. Okay, so that's the point of a lot of those texts. In that particular work, I am exegeting passages that are pressed into service in favor of the idea that you can hear the voice of God. And that's something you need to develop a skill at. And I show that's not what these verses are teaching at all. And I was just scanning a piece. I won't go into it now, but since I wrote that article, there are lots of people that have written with pushback saying, I'm wrong. What I'm surprised about is all the people who just say, you're wrong. God does do this, so you're wrong. I know he does this. Every Christian needs to do this. You're wrong. All right. What I need is not just an opinion. I need the reasons why people think I'm mistaken. Given that I made an entire and careful scriptural case for my view in the article, it's not helpful to simply say, well, you're wrong. This is bad teaching. This is going to hurt a lot of people. I actually read one that says, the fact is there are a whole lot of people hurt because God was speaking, and they never heard them down through history. Now, think about that for a moment. How could anyone, anybody ever know that? Negative. Yes, God has spoken to lots of people, but they never heard him. Well, then how do you know God spoke to them? You see the point I'm making. I just. I don't know. Maybe that could have been made more clear if the person had more time. But it's not just enough to gain, say, a point. You can't just say you're wrong. You have to make a case for your disagreement. And I'm happy to hear them. I've fielded bunches of them, but nevertheless. Okay, so that's what this piece is about, that Silas is referring to. And I'm a little surprised by the statement. How can I tell the difference between my thoughts and God speaking to me? Because it presumes that God is speaking to me in subtle ways, which is the very point that I was arguing against in my treatment of the verses in question. So maybe I could back up and put it this way. Why would you think that God is speaking to you in Thoughts that you can't discern specifically as God's voice. Why would you think that's happening? Such that you have to find a way to separate one from the other. I don't see any justification for that in Scripture anywhere. You can read all through the testaments, both of them, and you're just not going. This is. Pardon me for putting it this way. This is an idea. Looking for a proof text, a doctrine. Looking for a proof text. It's a doctrine because it's a received tradition among evangelicals. And everyone talks about it as if it's a fact. And then when someone questions it, it just seems like, heretical. I have been called a heretic for questioning this. Of course, the critical issue is chapter and verse, chapter and verse. Show me where the general idea that's being communicated, that we need to learn to hear the voice of God, or that we need to, in this case, from you, Silas, kind of discern between my thoughts and God's thoughts. Where do we have that? You know, even using the phrase God's thoughts, you know, Isaiah has a comment about that God saying. How does he put it? He says, my word, My thoughts are not your thoughts. Okay? And I think in the same passage is where he's saying, my word shall not return to me void without accomplishing that which I've purposed for it. So in other words, when. Oh, gosh, I'm going to write this down, not return void, because I have to talk about this in the old book. I'm writing on it. Okay? What God is saying is when his word goes out, he has a purpose, and it will accomplish that purpose. So how is it that the word is going out? According to many, but others, it's not accomplishing the purpose because people aren't listening carefully. Now, that's not quite your question, Silas, but there's a similarity there, because the presumption is God is investing our mind with thoughts. And what we have to do is we have to separate out which is mine, which would not be authoritative, and which is God, which would be authoritative. Now, with respect, Silas, I don't think your pastor gave you good advice, all right? Because I don't know why anyone would think that if it doesn't seem like my mind produces this. It must be God's mind. It could be Satan's mind. I mean, strictly speaking, it's certainly plausible Satan is causing these thoughts. No, I'm not saying he is. I'm just simply saying, why just automatically presume if it doesn't seem like something I would think of it must be God causing it. I hope you realize, and maybe you do. Everybody, as you reflect in your life, do you ever have really nasty, ugly, sinful, bizarre thoughts just come into your mind? I have. And in some cases they're not the kinds of things that I would ever, in my own conscious awareness, kind of crank up and create. That's not me. Well, I wouldn't assume that's God just because I wouldn't do it. Well, some of you might say, well, of course not. God wouldn't cause a nasty, bad, whatever, corrupt thought. Well, I agree with that, but you're missing my point. My point is, just because it's not me, I think that could produce that. It seems out of the ordinary for me. Then it must be God. By the way, lots of people have made this comment. They think that that's the way to discern it. I don't think that's reliable. Now, look, if you have the thought that comes to your mind, oh, I'm really hungry, but maybe I'll fast today. You don't have to say, is that God or is that me? Because if it's only you, you can still fast today as a spiritual enterprise. I have this idea, oh, here, I want to. There's a guy that's poor. Maybe I should give him five bucks. Oh, is that me or is that God? Doesn't matter. If it's a good thing to do. You don't need God's permission anyway. You don't need to discern whether it's a kind of a command from God or not. Unless if it is a command, it's going to be crystal clear. Just like the directives we see, say, in the Book of Acts, where that kind of thing happens occasionally, not very often, actually. 13 times from Pentecost to the end of the book, which covers 30 years, 13 times recorded. Okay, that's not a lot. So, you know, I don't think you have to answer that question the way that you're asking it. I don't think you have to say, hmm, is that me or God? You are asking a question that scripture doesn't ask or address. We don't have people talking about in scripture. Well, I have this idea, but I don't know if it's for me or for God. Rather, it seems to me the right thing to do is just. If the idea comes to mind, just assess it. If it seems to be a good idea, propitious, helpful, virtuous, it's within your capability to do it. This is Proverbs. 3. Don't withhold good from those to whom it is due when it's in your capability to do it. If you can do the good thing, do it. You don't need God's permission to do the good thing. And you don't have to figure out did God put that in my mind or did I think it up? It does not matter if it's a good thing, you can do it. If it's not a good thing, don't do it. And if it's neutral, decide for yourself. Now. There are times when God has placed desires or purposes in people's minds. But by the way, that is not just true of Christians. Hebrew scripture says that God put certain desires or ideas into the mind of the pagan Cyrus to accomplish certain ends. In the book of Revelation we see the same thing with other non believers where God incites them with ideas and they don't need to figure out where it comes from. They just are acting on it in light of their own wisdom and the return to the land. Who is it Nehemiah talks about in retrospect? Well, these are the things that God laid at my heart. It doesn't say that God told him to do it, but it was something that he had a desire and an impulse to do in light of a lot of things. And he gives the reasons and then he says, then he does them. And then almost in retrospect he says, the Lord laid these things on my heart. So I don't think you have to go through this big analysis, frankly, Silas, and I don't think you have to ask yourself the question. Well, I wouldn't think of this. Therefore it must be God. Because when you do it that way, whatever it is that you think must be God, you're assigning divine authority to that impulse. And in my view, you do not have the justification to assign divine authority to some impulse that you had about something that may even have been good. But you think you wouldn't have thought of that, so it must be God putting it in your mind. I think that's a faulty way of going about this. All right, just judge the impulse on its merits. There are all kinds of things that I have done in my life. I guarantee you, as I look back and see God's sovereign hand at work, that God was the one who placed these things on my heart and moved these things forward. But it wasn't because I could hear the voice of God or I had some little test to divide out my thoughts from God's thoughts or anything like that. That's not the biblical model, nor will you see anything like that anywhere in scripture. This thing that you just described, Silas. So I think you're making it harder than it needs to be. All right? If you get an idea or an impulse, you have a thought, you don't have to ask God's permission. You can just do it. If it's a good thing and it's a wise thing. Now maybe God will stop you. Okay, fine. But it's up to you. That's the way we see it happening, say in the Book of Acts. There are times when God will intervene with. Okay, time out. I've got something special for you. And he gives it. It's usually supernatural and always clear. Insofar as we have the details, set aside Saul and Barnabas for the work that I have for them. The first missionary journey, second missionary journey, not. So Saul and Barnabas just decided to take off. Now, they had a little fight about John, Mark, and they went in different directions, but that was all their own decision making, based on a broader command of God to go into all the world and make disciples. And Paul understood that he had a specific commission specifically from God to go to the Gentiles. But God didn't map out his travel plans. There was an occasion where God told him, you can't go here. You can't go to North Galatia, Asia, whatever. And then there was this vision of the dream that precipitated the trip to what? Macedonia, wherever. Where the Philippian jailer account took place. And that was in the book of Acts 16. But for the most part, they're just moving ahead. I don't think you have to answer the question, where did this come from? And you run into the liability that you begin assigning divine authority to stray thoughts you have just because you don't think you could have thought that up. Okay, so thank you, Silas. Oh, we have another question from Silas. So he's got a twofer today. That's the next one up on NDEs. Let's hear what you have to say, Silas.
- [19:33]
Silas
Hey, Greg and Amy, this is Silas again. I had submitted a few questions and I also had another question about near death experiences. I've been listening to a podcast and the guy was talking about how Muslims and non believers had died and almost had gotten like a second chance, if you would call it that, of Jesus meeting them when they die and pretty much saying, I'm giving you a second chance with life. You can use it to go live for me, or you can use it to do whatever else you were doing. Just curious what you thought on that. I find it really interesting there's multiple dozens accounts of this. But it just seems a little odd that Jesus and you know, God can do whatever he wants to, but it just seems a little odd that he would pick and choose maybe people to give second chances to. That might be wrong thinking on my end, but I was just curious what you guys thought of that also went to Reality Dallas and really enjoyed it. So thank you guys. All right, bye.
- [20:44]
Greg Kokel
All right, Silas, thank you. As to one issue about the it seems odd you said that God would pick and choose who he gives a second chance to. I am not the least bit troubled by that notion. God can do whatever he wants with his salvation. He can withhold it if he wants. He can give it if he wants. This is the nature of grace. Grace is undeserved. That means if it is undeserved, God has no obligation to give it. And Jesus told a parable along this line and what he described was a landowner, a property owner who sent people out into the field at different times in the day, but then made arrangements for them for their wages and paid them all the same. The guy who worked eight hours and the guy who worked one hour and the guy who worked eight hours thought he was going to get a lot more because he worked longer and he didn't and he complained. And then the landowner, which is a parallel with God, said, wait, why are you upset because I was generous with these guys? You got what I promised you to get. Can't I do what I want with my own money? If I want to be more generous, I can. So that principle applies here, Silas, that God can pick and choose. It's entirely up to Him. And I think this is true even with regards to salvation. Now some people will say, well, wait a minute, God is no respecter of persons. To which I agree. As long as you understand what is being communicated there. God does not respect anybody in virtue of their own merits. He's not given special favor to rich people or smart people or tall people or beautiful people, whatever. God is not. He is not a respecter of those persons, but he is one who has the right to choose or reject whoever he wants. All right? And that's the nature of grace. Undeserved favor. All right. God's riches at Christ's expense. G R A C Now regarding near death experiences themselves, this is a huge area. A lot of work has been done in it. Gary Habermas, who I've known for many years, I Have a crazy fishing story that could hike 30 years. 25 years ago, with me and Gary, he hooked a striper at a lake here in Southern California, my boat. And he never got it under control. Broke the line. It was crazy. Anyway, he's an expert in the area of NDEs, and wrote a portion of a book he did with JP Moreland called what is that? Beyond Death. Yeah. Thank you, Amy. Beyond Death, where he has a section in there on NDEs. Now, here's the. Gary is very conservative in his conclusions that he draws from NDEs, and he sticks with the evidence. And what the evidence definitely demonstrates is that materialism is false and souls exist because people can be separated from their souls and go other places and then come back and report on what they saw that they couldn't have seen if their body was stuck in the room, like at a surgical table. And these are called remote viewing experiences. Now, that's one type of nde. And arguably, even though the body is inert in these circumstances, there's maybe a flat ekg, a flat eeg, no heart activity, no brain activity. The person is still present in this world. All right? They just get reinhabited. So that's near death. But one could argue they're not really dead. They're not fully and completely dead. Because if they're fully and completely dead, there is a point past which an individual goes where there is no return. And that might be. I don't know how you want to characterize it. It's not heart death or brain death, because obviously people return after that. But let's just call it biblical death. I don't know, for lack of a better term. And in that regard, it is appointed for man to die once, and then comes the judgment. Notice that after that death, judgment is secured of one type or another. Okay. In NDEs, we seem to have something in between, not ultimate death. And so materialism is certainly falsified by these remote viewing experiences, and they're well documented. Now, some of these other experiences you actually have, people go into the netherworld itself, into the kind of hereafter or someplace. There's an experience of going to heaven and then coming back, and there's an experience of some going to hell and coming back. And there are all kinds of other experiences that people have and have come back from and reported on that, frankly, bear no resemblance in the theology that people deduce from that experience to the Christian worldview. And I don't know what to do with all of that, to be honest with you. And next Time I see Gary, maybe in November in Boston. I'll sit down and have a talk with him about this. But one general way of putting it is that when people are in the nether world, there still is not a finality to their death as characterized by the verse in Hebrews where it says it's appointed for men to die once and then come the judgment notice. In EKG death or EEG death, these are ways of humanly defining death based on physical responses. Okay, in an ultimate death, a full death, a complete death, the body can't be revived. The body is done with, and it begins to decay. It grows through a series of decay. So when Jesus raised Lazarus, Lazarus was dead as a doornail did. And this is why his sister, when Jesus intimates that he's going to raise Lazarus, she says, hey, it's the third day. He smells, right? He's already decaying. Well, Jesus, that wasn't anything like an end to e. That was a resurrection. That was a dead body being brought back to life fully and completely dead. So there are some exceptions when God intervenes, very specially like this in Jesus, resurrection of Lazarus. But you know that characteristically this isn't what happens. And so I'm at this point willing to say, well, these are people that enter the netherworld, but they haven't fully died because there's a possibility that their physical body not ultimately dead, but just not flat eeg, flat ekg, I don't know what to call that, but is still an appropriate place for the soul to return to. And the body operates, by the way. Sometimes people have NDEs, like famous ones, where they go underwater and they drowned, and then it's in a half hour before they're able to resuscitate them. But nevertheless, the body can still work because it hasn't begun decaying. All right, so we're in this category now with your question about Jesus gives people a second chance at life. Let's just take it at face value. Let's say whoever it is that they saw was Jesus. One wonders, how would they know that? And maybe they have an answer for this. I do know that a lot of times when they see an individual in this nether world, in between, if you will, it is likely the individual is going to interpret that in light of their own religion. So Christians who see a person like that of light identify Jesus, and others who are, say, Hindus, identify Ka. I mean, this happens. So there's all kinds of questions that for me are hard to answer. And I haven't done a Deep dive in all of these things. But how about if we just say it is Jesus and he tells these individuals, yes, you are going to have another shot, another chance. And then he lets them come back and then they become believers. Now, we know that there are lots and lots and lots of Christians who had been Muslims who became Christians because of some supernatural experience, may have been an NDE or not. I knew Nabeel Qureshi years ago. He's gone now. He's with the Lord now. Eight years. But Nabeel had a supernatural experience. And whenever I meet a former Muslim who is now a Christian, I always ask them, was there something supernatural that was part of the process of your conversion? More times than not. Many more times than not. The answer is yes. Very interesting. Okay. And so I don't have any problem with somebody on their way out and Jesus intercepts them as they're passing through this middle stage to ultimate death. Then he says, okay, I'm sending you back. I'm going to give you a second chance. Because that's certainly within his purview, within his rights. It's his grace, after all. He can mete his grace out any way he wants. So I don't have, in principle, any problem if this is veridical. In other words, the testimonies about these kinds of things are accurate in the details that this person offers. Okay. Just as you said, Silas, God can do whatever he wants, but it's for a reason. He can do whatever he wants because when it comes to forgiveness, he can disperse forgiveness as he pleases because it's grace. It's not law. It is not required of God. There are people who disagree. I think Bill Craig would disagree with me, William Lane Craig, because he thinks God's love requires him to save as many as he possibly can. Okay. I don't agree with that. So we have a difference of opinion. People can make their own decisions on that. But I think that God's grace is his to give. In fact, there are verses that say almost that precise thing. Nevertheless, I have no problem with this. I do have a lot of questions about NDEs and how we're to understand the variety of experiences that people say they have once they come back. I don't know to take these all as veridical because frankly, they have conflicting people come back with conflicting accounts of the hereafter can all be true. Something else is going on. That's why we have to be careful, I think, in reading these, what Tim Challis calls heaven tourism books, with drawing conclusions, the conclusions that we can draw about the afterlife that we can be confident in, come from books already written. They're called Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, etc etc etc. That's where we should get our information. And as you said, Silas, God can do whatever he wants. Let's take a break and we'll have more questions, more open mic calls from you when I return on stand. Teresa Friends, if you like this broadcast, I know you'll love Strask. It's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy hall and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter. Strask is released twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes long, so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage, or just plain loafing at home. Amy and I tackle your questions on theology and ethics and culture and lots more, offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face. You can listen on Apple podcasts or wherever you download your own shows. Just remember, send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast Strask. That's Strsk As a high school teacher.
- [34:25]
Mr. B
I always had a red pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front of my students teaching a lesson, you could find me assessing assignments, grading essays, and evaluating exams. The red pen played a crucial role in the educational development of my students. With it, I questioned their assumptions, exposed their errors, and challenged them to think critically. You see, a good teacher doesn't merely tell his students that they're wrong. A good teacher shows his students why they're wrong so they don't make the same mistakes twice. He corrects because he cares. Last year I was scrolling through social media and frankly, I was discouraged at all the bad thinking that undergirded much of what I was reading. Then it hit me. What if someone applied the red pen to this flawed thinking? And Red pen logic with Mr. B was born. In the last few months, Red Pen Logic has grown in popularity through our engaging and shareable educational graphics and videos. We are helping people, especially young people, assess bad thinking by using good thinking, and we have a lot of fun in the process. So here's your homework assignment, like the Red Pen Logic Facebook page so you don't miss our next graphic. And subscribe at the red Pen Logic YouTube channel so you don't miss a single video. Class dismissed.
- [35:52]
Greg Kokel
All right, back at you here at Stand to Reason. Greg Koukl, giving you a piece of my mind here as I do every week. I guess the podcast comes out Wednesdays and Fridays, right? Okay, two hours a week. And glad you're here to, I mean listening. I'm, I'm here on Tuesdays and so generally that's when the show is live and you can call in if you like. 285-524-39975. Now that's not the case right now. That would be Tuesdays, 4 to 6 LA time. And actually right now I'm off schedule. So we're doing open mics and if you want to leave them open, my question once again go to our str.org homepage under Podcasts where it says live broadcast. You can follow the prompts for that. Now we have a couple other questions I want to get to. Here's one about cremation. So Tom, I'm sorry, his name is Tom. So let's just fire that one up. Ha ha ha.
- [37:01]
Silas
Hi Greg and Amy, this is Tom from Montana. I have a question about end of life processes. I am someone that's in their 60s and I'm trying to get certain things finished off on my will and make it easy as possible for those that going to be left with taking care of my remains. I'm a single person, so that's another reason why I'm trying to make it easier for them. But it has to do with deciding on cremation or the regular burial process. I know there are some arguments out there and I've actually heard you speak about it, Greg, before and I'm wondering if you've added to your answer or changed your mind at all since then. And I thought cremation would be a much easier thing for people to deal with after I leave. But I also want to be appropriate if that is not the Christian thing to do. Thanks for your help and always appreciate your show.
- [38:22]
Greg Kokel
All right, Tom, thank you for the question. And when you say you heard me in the past but you're not sure if I've changed my mind, I actually have changed my mind. But I don't know if what you heard in the past was before I changed my mind or after I changed my mind. So here was my initial thoughts on this. My initial thoughts was or were my initial thoughts were that given that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord as Paul 2 Corinthians, that means when I die, it's no longer me. I am somewhere else. That's why we say they passed on or they passed away or he went to be with the Lord. Because there was this acknowledgment that given a Christian worldview that we are dualistic. We have a body and a soul. And the soul then is the locus location of ourselves, our ego, if you will. And when we go, the body is left behind now that will be resurrected again. And so then the question is, well, what do you do with the body? And now I'm thinking, well, it's just a body. That's it. So dispose of the body the simplest way possible. That was my older. My former view. And I'm just thinking in terms of utility. Okay? It's not me anymore. I was in there, but I'm not there anymore. That's just the tent that's like now, you know, passing away and degrading much faster than it was when I was inside that tent. And so now let's just get rid of that tent that is no longer inhabited. All right? So that was my thinking. And part of what goes along with that is that, you know, burial and all the costs that are associated now in America with the kind of burial that we're used to is really expensive. And it just seemed like maybe that's just not the best way to do things. And so maybe the simpler way is dispose of the body the easiest way possible. Now, I have been challenged on that view, and I've kind of changed my mind. But let me say this. I think it's a gray area. It is not clear to me that there is a. A right or wrong area. I'm sorry, answer on this. Sometimes gray areas are. What we mean by that is that there is a right answer and a wrong answer. I just can't figure out what it is. Okay? It's gray. And some people might go one way and some another. I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer. You can get buried or you can get burned, and it neither is. Is a vice is a wrong thing. Okay? But I think there may be more virtue in burial. Now, in the past, burial used to be called Christian burial because when Christians were buried, the idea was that the. The tent that had housed this person. I'm not sure how best to describe this, but had value in virtue of being the home of the person. So here's a way of thinking about it. Maybe. Maybe there's a house that you grew up in with your father and mother, then you move out, and then your mother and father grow old there and then pass away. And they're gone. But there's the house. There's the house that for years and years had been the place that was their abode. You have memories associated with the house that are sweet memories. Doesn't it seem like a little bit of a salt to the emotions? Just think we're just going to bulldoze this thing, we're going to torch it, we're going to get rid of it so it's no longer there. Isn't there a sense that you know, when you have something like this, you revisit it and drive by and have warm feelings? Because there's something about the building in virtue of having been inhabited by loved ones and you have having had experiences with that physical object that endears that object to you in some sense. And then you want to treat it with respect. So I think that may be something the way that the notion of so called Christian burial works, that the human body, though it's a tent that's decaying, is the place where the human lived. And by the way, when, when someone is buried in a plot, loved ones go to that location not because the person is there and down in the box, but because there's something familiar about the abode, what's left of it, that is buried under the ground. And it's a way of kind of connecting with the memory of the person and maybe even with the person that you are thinking about that, you know, for example, might be with the Lord. Okay, so that would be on the side of not getting cremated. Because even if you do the, you know, the ashes, you bury the ashes in a location. And I had some relatives where that was the case. They bury the ashes and then you can go to the location. I don't know, it's just not the same when I think about it. Yep, there's grandpa's ashes. They're right over that hole over there. It's been scattered over this field that he loved. It's just not the same thing. But I don't think it's wrong. It is a bit ghastly because when a person is cremated, not everything gets turned to ash. The bones in many cases don't, or some of them. And then they have to be ground up. I mean, that's kind of gross sounding. So this is all aesthetics, I guess. And I am sympathetic to the earlier idea of disposing of the body in an inexpensive way or convenient way. I mean, I wish we could go back to the pine box. I thought that's great. You know, it's not very Expensive. You know, you dig a hole six feet down, you put the pine box there up the boot hill or wherever it is, and, you know, then you stick across up there or whatever, and then you got a memento there. But it's not really that expensive. But to spend tens of thousands of dollars and trying to get somebody in the ground, that's a hard one. Now, I haven't had to face that in terms of my personal family. My mother passed away a few years ago. My sister passed away last year, my younger sister, and she was interred. And I had nothing to do with the details there, but I think she was, but I'm not sure. But when it comes to somebody in my own family, I think I like the idea of a family plot where the members can be interred consistent with a Christian burial and not just burned up. That, to me, is like bulldozing the building that you have so many fond memories of in light of its previous inhabitants. Okay. And that's where I think the connection is a parallel. All right, so those are my thoughts on that. I favor the pine box. I don't know if you can still do that. I actually saw an ad online the other day for a big green tubular thing. It's a composter for your body. I know. It's really. That, to me, is like, the worst option. In any event, that's out there. Let's hear from. Let's see. Let's hear and hear from Summer, please, on burnout.
- [47:28]
Summer
Hi there, Greg. My name is Summer, and I have a question. I guess mostly just looking for wisdom for something personal. My husband and I are in ministry together at a church, at a very small church, and.
- [47:55]
Greg Kokel
I.
- [47:57]
Summer
Personally have been experiencing the most intense season of burnout. I've thought that I've been burnt out before, but I've truly never felt something like this. And most of it is due to just the church's culture and things that have happened and things that continue to happen. And so I guess two questions that I have is, number one, what are some. What are some advice that you have for someone who is going through burnout, dealing with burnout, whether it's in ministry or in life in general? And second of all, I've heard you talk about how we don't necessarily need to hear this clear directive from God in order to move forward with the decision? And would you say that it is okay for my husband and I to possibly look for other churches to work at, even if we're not feeling this call calling from God to do so per se? So thank you again for listening, and I hope I can hear back from you guys.
- [49:16]
Greg Kokel
Thank you, Summer, for your question. And let me take the last first. And that is having to do with the calling from God. And you're right. Like you said, I don't think you need to have a special calling from God to go into things, but it's actually stronger than that. I don't think there is. This has to be qualified. But the way that most people talk about it, I don't think there is a calling of God like that. Oh, I'm called to be a pastor, or I'm called to be an evangelist, or I'm called into this ministry. I think God is calling me to be an apologist or something like that. The way you put it here in your question, I think you said feeling a calling from God because the calling in the way people are describing it is a subjective thing. We have to have some subjective signal from God regarding where we're going to make sure that he's saying it's okay. And what I'm saying here, for people who are immersed in this way of thinking, that's not you, Summer, but others are immersed in this. For me to say what I'm about to say is borderline anathema. You don't need God's calling for anything. Now, why would I say that? Because God doesn't distribute biblically. And this is the question. God doesn't distribute ministry by calling. He distributes ministry by gifting. The reason I say that is because I went through the New Testament and looked up every single case where the word kale is used. And in the hundreds of cases, there are almost no cases where the word is used the way people normally use it when they talk about being called to ministry. So if you don't need to be called to ministry, you don't need to be called out of ministry is kind of my point here. But we have all kinds of teaching, 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12, 1 Peter, 2 Ephesians 4, where we have instruction on ministry being distributed by the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives personally to each individual. And Peter says it quite clearly. He says, look, as you have a gift, use it by the power God gives you as a good steward of the grace of God, to the glory of God, but use it. So he's not saying, wait around till you're called to do this, that or the other thing. He said, look, you got a gift. Be about the job of being productive using the gift. Now where should I use it? Well, Wherever you can, give what you got, where you're at, when you can. I think that's Teddy Roosevelt's paraphrase, but it's a great one. So you don't have to worry about the calling part. You don't have to worry about getting called in or called out. For those people who say, bite your tongue, Greg, about calling, just go back to the text and find it. Paul was called as an apostle. Got that. But that was a quite unique circumstance and we don't have examples of that. Characteristically, as the way ministry is distributed, it's different, like I said. Okay, so the other issue though, what about burnout? Burnout's not good. If you're involved in serving God and you're burning out, your service is not joyful. You're not giving from a joyful heart your service, and therefore it's negative, not positive. And you're probably really compromised in the help that you're giving other people. Why? Because you're burned out. All right, then back off. I don't see any difficulty with that. And again, it's easier if we are not overly. What's the right word? Like getting over spiritual about calling God. He didn't say it was okay. You don't need God's permission to change your circumstances to improve your state of mind or your ability to serve. Sometimes people just need to back off. And the reason they need to back off is because I suspect. I don't know about you, Summer, but their lives are out of balance. That is, we have a number of responsibilities, not just service and ministry. That's one. But we have other. And if you do it as a, as a profession, that's how you make your living. And men care for their families, etc. That's my circumstance. So that's one obligation I have to serve the body of Christ and take care of my family. And in my case, at this point in my life, they're both in the same. But I have other obligations that have to do with my family and my well being as an individual, emotional, physical, etc. Sometimes we burn ourselves out. We are not good stewards of the body that God has given us. So it doesn't last as long as it could to be effective tool. The way I think, characteristically, God wants it to be. All right, so that means, oh, if I'm doing, I have to. Look, let me back up. I work out, all right? I'm 75 and I swam a quarter mile yesterday. Okay. And then I did chin ups and push ups and air Squats and different things. So I'm trying to stay in shape. That's hard to do because I don't have a routine. I'm here, hither, thither and yon, you know, here, there, everywhere at different times of different days. It isn't like I have a routine every day and I can build something into my routine to consistently do that. It's work to do it, but I know I need to. It would be very easy to say no to that stuff and I do say no to it too much. But I think I will be less satisfied, healthy, capable if I didn't make room for these things at different times. Same thing with my family. And I work a lot at home. If I'm not on the road and I'm not right here on Tuesday's broadcasting and those times I, you know, okay, I say to my wife, I'm check, I'm clocking out, honey, I'm done. It's 5:30 at 6, it's 6:30 at 7, it's into the evening. Okay, I'm clocking out now. It's time for me downtime. You know, I'm just going to be doing things with my family, having dinner, watching something, whatever, talking, interacting. I'm clocking out and it's important to be able to clock out for personal and emotional well being and for the health of the families that we're parts of. All right, so there is no reason for any Christian worker who's feeling burned out not to back out. Maybe change churches, maybe change jobs, maybe for a season, maybe forever. There's nothing wrong with that. It's going to be an individual decision that is based on the circumstances you're facing. But if a person is locking themselves out for reasons like, well I didn't get called from God to get out or maybe it's not spiritual to stop, well then you're just setting yourself up for disaster because it's bad theology in my view. Do what you can while you can and when you're overwhelmed, back off, get a breather, recover, walk a mile, take a swimming, do some push ups, whatever, and recover so that you will be in for the distance. All right friends, Greg Kokel here for stand a reason. Thank you for the time you've spent with me. Give him heaven today. Bye bye now. Sam.