Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast

Episode: Can Evolution Explain Our Sense of Meaning?
Host: Greg Koukl
Guest: Tim Barnett
Release Date: October 15, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Greg Koukl and Tim Barnett analyze Greg’s recent appearance on "The Diary of a CEO," where he debated questions about meaning and purpose with atheist philosopher Alex O’Connor and an Eastern-mystic psychiatrist ("Dr. K"), hosted by Stephen Bartlett. The conversation examines whether evolution can account for the human sense of meaning and explores the deeper relationship between purpose, morality, and transcendence from a classical Christian perspective.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clarifying 'Purpose' and 'Meaning'

(00:00–06:12)

• Greg highlights the confusion around the terms "purpose" and "meaning": "Meaning comes first... the meaning that you're here, the reason why you're here, and then that informs at least the purposes that match the meaning." (A, 02:17)
• The atheists in the original discussion, especially Alex, approached these concepts in a "utilitarian," subjective way, focused only on personal satisfaction and feelings.
• Greg draws a sharp distinction between objective purpose (grounded in a creator) and subjective purpose (arising from personal or societal preferences): "Either we're made for a purpose, we have a meaning... or not. If we are, we got a maker. If there's no maker... purpose is whatever."

2. Morality and Meaning Are Linked in Christianity

(06:12–07:18)

• Tim points out that in the Christian worldview, morality and meaning are inseparable, while their atheist and eastern counterparts sever that link.
• Greg: "Their worldview has no grounds for objective moral distinctions... Alex would admit that right out."
• Dr. K at one point says, "there is no right and wrong here, no good and bad," which Greg finds telling.

3. Personal Accounts of Finding Meaning

(07:18–14:49)

• Stephen Bartlett shares stories: a male friend found meaning after converting to Christianity; a female friend turned to collecting plants but ended up in therapy.
• Greg observes the profound, unique transformation often tied specifically to Christian conversion, both for individuals and historically within cultures (e.g., the Wesleyan Revival and abolition in England):
  "For those who...genuinely connect with Christ, it's durable and it's transformative and you can actually see the difference." (A, 12:29)
• Notable: Being "religious" is not enough — it's specifically the encounter with Christ that brings about transformation.

4. Atheist Views — Purpose as a ‘Task’

(15:12–21:55)

• Alex O’Connor: "Purpose is intimately tied up with the idea of a task to fulfill...a project which is not completed yet" (C, 15:12).
  He likens life’s purpose to chasing an ever-dangling carrot, drawing from Pascal — though Pascal’s actual point is misapplied.
• Greg notes the emptiness of achieving finite goals (e.g., Olympic athletes feeling deflated after winning), highlighting that utilitarian satisfaction is ultimately unsatisfactory:
  "When people set very high goals and then accomplish those goals, there's still this question... That's not enough. That's not it. And this drives them to despair." (A, 21:02)

5. Can Evolution Explain Meaning?

(22:17–30:43)

• Alex proposes that our drive for meaning is a product of evolutionary "random mutation of ideas" (memetics):
  "Such is meaning...if you have two isolated communities, one nihilistic and dies out, the other values building society, the latter survives; so we end up with this sense, this drive within us that we can’t explain and yet we have." (C, 22:22)
• Greg strongly critiques this as a category error—misapplying biological mechanisms to abstract conscious experience:
  "He’s trying to explain through a mechanistic biological process, a propositional awareness in the consciousness... But now you’re trying to explain the contents of consciousness, meaning, in a materialistic mechanism. It’s not going to work." (A, 29:05)
• Notable name: Cites Thomas Nagel and his book, Mind and Cosmos, as an atheist philosopher who admits materialism can’t explain consciousness.

6. The "Meaning Crisis" and Connectivity

(31:32–37:24)

• Alex suggests our "meaning crisis" is fueled by being bombarded with diverse ideas via the internet, undermining any sense of objective meaning.
• Greg objects:
  • Plurality of views does not prove all are subjective or false:
    "Just because there are lots of different beliefs out there...doesn’t mean no one could be right. Of course not." (A, 34:58)
  • Analogy: "Some people think the world is flat, some people think the world is round. That does not mean the world has no shape." (A, 37:10)

7. Does Subjective Experience Bear on What’s True?

(37:42–44:47)

• Alex: "The subjective sense of meaning a person feels from Christianity has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of Christianity."
• Greg disagrees:
  "What I want to say is, look at the human condition. We are not just moist robots. We are conscious beings that experience life on many different levels... If a person’s life is transformed when they adopt a different understanding...one would expect this kind of result. Well, then that seems evidential for the truth of the belief system." (A, 43:08)
• Tim's illustration: Hearing powerful testimonies of life transformation can have evidential value even for a third party.
• Greg offers the biblical example of Jesus healing the paralytic (Mark 2): an observable miracle as evidence of an unseen spiritual reality.

8. Advice for the “Meaningless” — Utilitarian Solutions

(47:01–51:59)

• Alex, when pressed for advice for a meaning-void friend, suggests:
  • Try church or reading the Gospels
  • Read philosophy of mind
  • Take psychedelic drugs
  • "The subjective feeling of meaning is usually tied up in the identification of something that transcends your individual self...whatever is the most plausible course of action...would be what I would recommend." (C, 47:01)
• Greg: Alex is at a loss because he can't recommend any objectively true solution—only what works for the individual, even if it's "tricking yourself" since, on an atheistic view, there is no transcendent meaning.

9. Dr. K’s Definition of Religion

(52:09–57:35)

• Dr. K: "Religion is a series of structures to evoke a personal experience" (B, 52:28)
• Greg: This reduces religion to subjective experience and rituals, without reference to transcendent reality. "What religions are attempting to do is tell you what reality is. Every different religion is a different story of reality." (A, 53:09)
• Greg addresses Dr. K's syncretic, Hindu-Buddhist lens, arguing that authentic Christianity is about objective truth and that transcendent encounters (e.g., enlightenment) are not simply interchangeable among religions.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Greg Koukl (02:17):

  "Meaning comes first... the meaning that you're here, and then from that flow, the particular objective purposes."

• Greg Koukl (13:11):

  "For those who...genuinely connect with Christ, it's durable and transformative and you can actually see the difference."

• Alex O'Connor (15:12):

  "Purpose is intimately tied up with the idea of a task to fulfill... that's why people tend to find meaning in projects which are not completed yet."

• Greg Koukl (29:05):

  "You can't even explain consciousness in a materialistic way, but now you're trying to explain the contents of consciousness: meaning... It's not going to work."

• Greg Koukl (34:58):

  "Just because there's lots of different beliefs out there...doesn't mean no one could be right. Of course not."

• Greg Koukl (43:08):

  "If a person’s life is transformed when they adopt a different understanding...one would expect this kind of result. Well, then that seems evidential for the truth of the belief system."

• Greg Koukl (53:09):

  "What religions are attempting to do is tell you what reality is. Every different religion is a different story of reality."

Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Event | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Opening: Greg and Tim revisit the earlier debate on meaning and purpose | | 02:17 | Greg clarifies meaning vs. purpose | | 07:18 | Stories of friends: Christianity vs. plant collection for meaning | | 13:11 | Greg on Christian transformation: unique and culture-transforming | | 15:12 | Alex O’Connor gives “task” theory of purpose, invokes Pascal | | 22:22 | Alex tries explaining meaning through evolutionary "mutation of ideas" | | 29:05 | Greg explains the category error in evolutionary explanations of consciousness | | 31:36 | Alex blames global connectivity for the "meaning crisis" | | 37:42 | Alex and Greg: Does subjective experience relate to truth? | | 43:08 | Greg: The evidential value of transformed lives | | 47:01 | Alex’s advice for meaning crisis: church, drugs, etc. (utilitarian solutions) | | 52:09 | Dr. K reduces religion to evoking experience; Greg responds | | 57:35 | Greg closes with reflections on the Christian experience and worldview |

Tone and Language

• The conversation is earnest and analytic, maintaining the "even-handed, incisive, yet gracious" style characteristic of Stand to Reason.
• Greg often dissects arguments with patience and careful logic, while Tim probes with clarifying questions.
• There’s open disagreement but also moments of lightheartedness and empathy, especially discussing the personal stakes of the meaning crisis.

Takeaway for Listeners

This episode offers a thorough critique of evolutionary and subjective accounts of meaning, arguing that neither utilitarian satisfaction nor evolutionary psychology provides a satisfactory grounding for human longing for meaning and purpose. Drawing examples from contemporary psychology, philosophy, and Christian history, Greg and Tim contend that objective meaning flows from a transcendent source—God—and that the Christian worldview uniquely accounts for both the transformation of lives and cultures and the deepest longings of the human heart.