Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast

Host: Greg Koukl
Episode: How Do We Know Objective Values Aren’t a Delusion?
Date: October 29, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on how Christians can defend the claim that objective moral values are real, not just social constructs or evolutionary illusions. Hosted by Greg Koukl, the show addresses key objections to the moral argument for God's existence—especially the skepticism that objective morality might be a delusion of culture or biology. Listeners' questions also lead to related topics: addressing new-age beliefs mixing into Christianity and the challenges of bringing apologetics into denominationally strict churches.

Key Discussion Points

1. Defending the Existence of Objective Moral Values

[05:46–29:45]

• Caleb (caller) asks: How do we justify the premise that objective moral values exist, instead of our perceptions being a product of evolution or mere cultural beliefs?

Greg’s Argument Structure:

• Analogy of Physical Perception

  • Seeing green chairs: If the room has green chairs, it’s unreasonable for someone to claim they’re only an evolutionary “illusion.”
  • Quote (Greg, 07:49):

    "I think that's crazy because they're right there. Just almost like an excuse."

• Limits & Corrections of Sensory Perception

  • Our senses can mislead (e.g., bent pencil in water), but humans have ways to correct errors and generally trust their perceptions.

• Rational/Mental Perception

  • Transitive property analogy (Mary shorter than Bob, Bob shorter than Bill ⇒ Mary is shorter than Bill): We “see” certain truths with our minds, not eyes.
  • Quote (Greg, 10:46):

    "...notice the word I just used. Do you see that? Now, obviously you can't see A, B, and C. You are thinking about the relationship... That is actually a rational intuition..."

• Self-evident Truths

  • Some concepts are so obvious they don’t need further evidence—like basic math (e.g., 2 is the square root of 4) or certain moral judgments.
  • Example of a postmodern student denying even the meaning of ‘2 is the square root of 4’ for cultural reasons.
  • Quote (Greg, 14:43):

    "...it's not something physical, it's a math relationship. It's a non-physical thing and it's not based on culture."

• The Human Capacity to Recognize Moral Reality

  • Everyone “sees” something is wrong with the world—the widespread intuition of evil is a reliable indicator.
  • Quote (Greg, 17:25):

    "There's one thing that everybody knows, and it doesn't matter where they live or when they lived. Everybody knows that something is wrong with the world. The world is broken, and that's the problem of evil."

• Objections from Relativism/evolution

  • If morality is only a product of culture or evolution, evil becomes subjective, making social reformers (like MLK or Wilberforce) actually ‘wrong’ if their culture disagrees—a conclusion most find counterintuitive and false.
  • Quote (Greg, 21:56):

    "If it's just culture, then whatever culture says is good is good by definition. So you couldn't have any evil cultures..."

• Against the Evolutionary Explanation

  • If our sense of evil is just evolutionary conditioning, the "problem of evil" disappears with it. But, Greg asserts, everyone experiences evil as a real problem.

• Dawkins’ Double Standard

  • Quotes Dawkins’ own inconsistency: On the one hand, rejecting morality’s objectivity (“...no good, no evil, only blind, pitiless indifference”), yet on the other, moralizing against the God of the Bible in “The God Delusion.”
  • Quote (Greg, summarizing Dawkins at 19:24):

    "...there is no justice, there is no evil, there is no good. There is nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. Now, that reflects accurately an atheistic view of reality. If atheism is true, that's what you're stuck with. But then he writes in the God Delusion, a tirade against the God of the Bible..."

• Summary Soundbite

  • Quote (Greg, 27:37):

    "For me to be mistaken about objective evil in the world means that 99.9% of the people in the world are mistaken. And this is why even atheists, when they don't have their philosophical guard up, are going to use language that reflects their internal knowledge of objective morality..."

Actionable Takeaways

• Draw analogies to obvious perception (like colors) and rational insight (like arithmetic) when discussing moral objectivity.
• Point to universal recognition of evil (the “problem of evil”) as evidence.
• Highlight double standards when skeptics use moral language to make their own points.

2. Responding to New Age "Christ Consciousness" within Christianity

[32:02–45:27]
Topic raised by caller Warren (Vancouver, BC)

• Problem: Friend blends Christianity with "Christ consciousness" (New Thought/Gnostic idea).
• Red flags: “Christ consciousness” has no Biblical foundation—comes from New Thought and Gnosticism, where Jesus is an enlightened example, not the divine Messiah of scripture.

Greg’s Counsel:

• Ask Clarifying Questions:
  • What does she mean by "Christ consciousness"?
  • Where does she find that idea in the Bible? Is that the Christ of the Gospels?
  • Quote (Greg, 39:39):

    "I guess what I would want to do is ask a lot of questions... help her to see whether there is a clear, clean, legitimate connection with the Jesus of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."

• Contrast with the Biblical Jesus:
  • Jesus is identified as divine and Messiah long before his baptism—contrary to New Thought’s timeline.
• Address Redefinition of Language:
  • New Age ideas often use familiar Christian terms with radically different meanings.
• Seek Clarity before Agreement:
  • "Clarity before agreement" (Dennis Prager): before debating, establish whether you’re even talking about the same thing.
  • Quote (Greg, 44:58):

    "...sometimes just getting clear on something helps you move forward. Dennis Prager used to say, clarity before agreement."

3. Apologetics and “Closed” Denominational Churches

[45:38–56:47]
Topic raised by Vincent (Torrance):
Challenges of bringing apologetics and external speakers to a church with strict denominational exclusivity (American Baptist Association, ABA).

Greg’s Advice:

• The Problem:
  • Pastor won’t allow speakers outside the denomination—even for things all Christians agree on (e.g., apologetics, not secondary issues like age of the earth).
• Possible Actions:
  • Use apologetics resources as individuals or in unofficial groups, as allowed.
  • If you’re a trusted member, teach apologetics yourself within the church’s doctrinal boundaries.
  • Bring church members to outside apologetics events (e.g., STR’s Reality Conference).
  • Quote (Greg, 53:44):

    "Grab a whole bunch of people from your church and bring them along because we can train them at a different facility. We can't get into your facility, but we can train them at a different facility."

• Analysis and Reflection:
  • Greg gently critiques the insular approach—arguing it hampers spiritual growth and community equipping.
  • Such policies may stem from a desire to “protect” but risk intellectual and spiritual stagnation.
  • Quote (Greg, 50:23):

    "I suspect they think we're protecting our flock. All right, from what? ... how do we help our people to grow? Do we just block them off from any dissident voices?"

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Everybody knows that something is wrong with the world. The world is broken, and that's the problem of evil."
  – Greg Koukl (17:25)
• "If the problem of evil is real, then morals are objective. ...if the evolutionary view is true or any form of relativism is true, There is no problem of evil. But we know there's a problem of evil. Everybody knows that. What, are we all deluded but the atheist who denies it?"
  – Greg Koukl (21:24)
• "No attempt to use culture or Darwinian evolution is going to explain away what we all know to be the case."
  – Greg Koukl (22:56)
• On "Christ consciousness": "There is no such thing biblically ... that comes out of new thought and Gnosticism and all that kind of distortion of Christianity.”
  – Greg Koukl (33:30)
• "Clarity before agreement."
  – Attributed to Dennis Prager, used by Greg Koukl (44:58)
• On denominational exclusivity:

  "It's just so narrow and it's not even—I don't know how to say it. I don't think it's helpful to have the view that no one can speak in our church about anything unless they agree with us on everything."
  – Greg Koukl (55:17)

• Encouragement to a young apologist:

  "You sound like a grown man... You're doing great, Caleb."
  – Greg Koukl (29:19)

Timestamps for Main Segments

• [00:28–05:46] Conference Recap, Announcements
• [05:46–29:45] Caleb’s call: Objective Morality—is it a delusion?
• [32:02–45:27] Warren’s call: "Christ consciousness" & New Age syncretism
• [45:38–56:47] Vincent’s call: Denominational barriers to apologetics

Conclusion

This episode offers a robust, practical defense for objective morality, using memorable analogies and real-life objections. Greg Koukl’s core argument: our recognition of morality is as clear and reliable as our ability to recognize simple physical facts or mathematical relationships—something nearly all people share, crossing cultures and times. He further warns against diluting Christianity with new-age concepts and reflects on denominational insularity that blocks vital apologetic engagement. Throughout, Greg encourages Christians to pursue clarity, graciousness, and intellectual courage as they defend and explain their faith.