← Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Sarah Koukl here on Standard Reason. And thank you so much for joining us today. We're gonna spend at least the first half hour of this hour with my friend and colleague John Stonestreet. You might recognize the name from Breakpoint, which he's the daily voice of. He's also the president of the Colson center. Written a book with Brett Kunkel right here, formerly with Sandra Raison. The book is called A Practical Guide to Culture. Also wrote Restoring All Things. But I've known John for over a quarter of a century. When I first started mixing it up, crowd over at Summit Ministries. And I want to say, like, long time no see, right? Like two days ago, John.
- [01:12]
B
Two days ago.
- [01:13]
A
That's right. So John is a featured speaker for this series, this year's series of reality. We were in Atlanta last week and I had the distinct displeasure of having to follow him on Friday night doing the one of the main sessions. But John came up first and I had, you know, follow John. He's such a great communicator. First, thank you so much for doing that for us. John. It takes you're on board for six realities. We just did one and that's a huge chunk out of your really, really busy schedule. So I just want to thank you for lending your talents to our efforts with reality.
- [01:51]
B
Oh, listen, man, it's an honor. And it's so incredibly effective. I mean, the Reality Conference is unique. There's nothing like it. And you guys are really hitting where people need, especially young people need it. Love the conversation about the story of reality and worldview, getting people to think about everything, total truth, you know, not in bits and pieces, you know, now we're hearkening back to the Francis Schaeffers and the Nancy Percy's of the world. Just super important. And the Reality Conference does that.
- [02:22]
A
Yeah. And you're such a great addition there. But I think I mentioned, you know, a quarter of a century for you and me. I think back to those early days when I was just starting to break into being someone helping out with what you guys were doing at Summit and you were just a main player there. And it was great to get to know you then and then to see what God has done through you and the Colson center and Breakpoint. And anyway, it's fabulous. There's a reason that I have you on board, not just to reminisce about old times together, but there is a brand new documentary that is just out. I don't know if it released this week. Is that when it came out?
- [03:00]
B
September 5th.
- [03:01]
A
September 5th. So we're just shortly into it. I actually watched the whole thing last night with my wife. It's called Truth Rising. Did I get it right?
- [03:11]
B
Yeah, that's right. Yep.
- [03:12]
A
Truth Rising. It's Colson center and Focus in the family, and you and Oz Guinness and then a whole bunch of other people that are talking about Western civilization and that. That we are arguably at least on a brink of a huge shift possibly, and that shift may not be in a good direction. And I guess a lot of people are feeling this, John, especially people who are alert to worldview issues and they know the consequence of ideas. You said it the other night, and I've heard others cite you on this one, that ideas have consequences and false ideas have victims. And this is a big part of the concern that Truth Rising as a documentary is addressing. So why don't you just launch out a little bit to give us some background on this documentary and how it's helping us kind of see the place that I almost said Western civilization is right now. And that's true. But it's where the world is, and the world is where it is, for good or for ill, because of Western civilization. And it has been a beacon in many ways to the future. And now that seems to be changing. And, you know, it's just not even a weekend recovering emotionally from the Charlie Kirk assassination last week. And I think a lot of people are aware of all of these things in light of that incredible event. And so I just. Just laying a foundation there to launch into this piece here, Truth Rising. Tell us a little bit about the documentary and why it's so important right now.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah, well, listen, the film is a journey from civilization to cult calling. In other words, what is happening on a global level and what does that mean for you in your life? And that's quite an ambitious promise for the film. But that's really what we're trying to do. And by we, I mean Colson center focused on the family. And also we were able to do this with our good friend Oz Guinness. And of course, I think Oz is about as close as we get to a Gandalf of our generation. Right?
- [05:28]
A
Well, he is the beard.
- [05:31]
B
That's right. Without the beard and without the pipe. But listen, Oz has coined this phrase civilizational moment. And we don't think about our civilization the way we usually think about civilizations, which is about things in the past, because we don't usually think about civilizations first of all, unless we're in a museum or we're reading a history book. And we're talking about things that were once dominant, once great, and then are no more. And how did that happen? We just maybe realized that it happened, but not how it happened. And we don't usually think about that when it comes to Western. Listen. There's never been a more sizable, influential, consequential civilization than the West. It is more dominant than any other. But civilizations have rules, and if you break those rules, then civilizations cannot be sustained. We now live in a world, and I think, you know, we can see it with the Kirk situation and the response to it where you. It's not like we're agreeing on. On where we're all trying to go and disagreeing on how to get there. We don't even agree on where we're trying to get to. We have different definitions of good, different definitions of true, different definitions of of honor, different definitions of freedom, different definitions of human. I mean, we could. We could just line. And this is an unsustainable path. And there. And there are people written and thought about this. Neil Ferguson, one of the voices featured, he literally wrote the book called Civilizations. And you know, some politicians, like Baroness Philippa Stroud, who founded the alliance for Responsible Citizenship, certainly Oz, who has a perspective as he emerges in the film, not only theoretically, but also personally, the first 10 years of his life, seeing the Cultural Revolution in China.
- [07:18]
A
Yeah, you know, John, I have known Oz for a very, very long time, and I think I first actually met him in 1991. I went out to Washington and spent time with him there and interviewed him and have known him ever since. I did not know all of these details, only generally that he was born in China and that his parents were missionaries and everything. But the kind of perspective that he lays out there about the first 10 years of his life really puts. I think it lays a perspectival foundation for what he wants to and you and the rest are trying to accomplish with this piece is to help kind of stand back. And just like we think of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. Well, that was a long time ago. We're in our moment now, and we don't realize that that could change very rapidly and very, very powerfully. Somebody, I don't know who he is quoting, but the citation was about bankruptcy and he said, how does bankruptcy happen? Well, it happens very, very slowly and then it happens very fast and then suddenly.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah, that was Oz in the truck. Yeah, that's exactly right. I love also, by the way, the prime minister, former prime minister, deputy prime minister of Australia, John. John Anderson. You know, he uses another analogy that I think is really helpful, which is you put the wrong fuel in the tank and it sputters and dies.
- [08:43]
A
Right.
- [08:43]
B
And you know, when you say earlier that people are feeling it, that's one of the observations that we try to make in the film. You know, all of this stuff is theoretical, but then you look around to, you know, the chaos around the last week, but, you know, the political back and forth, the amount of uncertainty of the dominance of the West. I mean, there's just a lot of examples of this, that this is a very real situation that we're in now. I'm not just interested in doing this project, and neither was Oz for a history project or for something really interesting. The question is, is the question that Francis Schaefer asked and that Chuck Colson and Nancy Pearcey asked, which is, how do we live now?
- [09:24]
A
Right.
- [09:25]
B
And George Orwell famously is credited with saying that in an age of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. I think that for Christians, we believe a couple things. Number one, if we're in this crazy civilizational moment that Oz describes, it's because God called us here. This is a film about calling. Ultimately, why are we called to this time and place? And what does it mean for us to be faithful to the moment? And then secondly, I think it means for everyone it's going to look differently given your job is to be Greg Kokel and to travel and speak and train thousands, or if your job is to be a mechanic or whatever else. But the point is, is that it's all going to involve, for all of us, truth and courage. Truth and courage. Truth and courage. The church, to be the church right now, has to be a church of truth and a church of courage. And that's not something we would necessarily see if we looked around. I think there's good signs. I think the response, for example, even to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, and we've seen what some people have called, for example, in Europe, a quiet revival, people coming back to trut. Great start. But, man, what does it mean for us that are in Christ and truth and courage? That's where I'm landing this right now. That's what the film's about.
- [10:47]
A
Well, one of the reflections in the next show, actually, I'll be giving some personal thoughts about the Charlie Kirk situation. But one of the things that occurred to me very quickly as I'm thinking about this, and I was. I mean, I was in a very. I can't go into details, but a very unique set of circumstances where this all, when all of this unfolded, unfolded and some of our colleagues as well as others might know. So it hits us all very closely, so to speak. But what struck me was, and I'll say more about this in another show, but that it's going to cost every single Christian something, and sometimes something very dear to be faithful to Christ. It actually doesn't matter when you happen to be living. And it's unusual in this country for a Christian. And I think Charlie Kirk was cut down in virtue of his Christianity, not just his so called politics, because his politics flowed from a robust Christian worldview. And he was much a Christian apologist as he was a policy wonk, you know, and it's not going to cost everybody that price and hopefully this is not a trend in this country, but it's happening all over the world now and it has for 2,000 years. And one thing that we can all take away from this, and this is part of the point you're making here, truth and courage, is that if we are going to stand courageously for the truth, which we must because we are followers of Christ, it's going to cost us something. All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 2 Timothy, Paul's last will and testament, so to speak.
- [12:34]
B
Yeah, now that's exactly right. And I think what we see instead is a real crisis of confidence often among Christians. You know, if somebody came up and really wants to fight with me about the, you know, whether the earth is flat or round, I'm not going to get real worked up about that.
- [12:51]
A
Right.
- [12:51]
B
And I'm certainly not going to be ashamed to say what I think, you know, so what is it when some of these really critical, crucial issues, controversial issues, the ones that cost us, you know, invites back to the party or it cost a social credit in some way or another if we go silent or if we just go irate. And that's what I, you know, I've seen way more Charlie Kirk videos after he died than before. And what I like millions of others and what you see is someone who has a real confidence that the truth can stand. And I think he also has a confidence in the Lord. And that's one of the things we also wanted to bring out. So as I said, the film goes from civilization to calling. And by calling, what we did is told five stories of truth tellers right now. And these are five stories. And honestly, Greg, one of the things behind this is Francis Schaeffer answered that question. How then shall we live? Chuck Colston answered, how Now Shall We Live? I was going to title it the same thing, but we ran out of adverbs. There was no more way to kind of do it, you know. But they described it and they described it well. Schaeffer described about real Christianity, William Wilberforce described in his book Practical Christianity. But we wanted to portray it because each of these stories tells something different about why truth is true, why you can stand on it and leave the results to God. So Chloe Cole, Jack Phillips, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Katie Faust and Seth Dillon, and all of them in very, very different ways.
- [14:35]
A
That's right.
- [14:36]
B
Truth and courage. And you're right. I think you're exactly right. And you know, we talked about this even this weekend in Atlanta, about counting the cost, paying the price. And that's the lot that we have in this civilizational moment. And I hope we see it as an opportunity. I mean, you know, no one wants to go through more violence or certainly be the victim of it. But what an incredible, incredible moment to be alive as the body of Christ.
- [15:04]
A
Well, you know, it reminds me of Esther, which is an ancient book. So this line has been around for a long time for such a time as this. And was it her Uncle Mordecai, as they're facing very dangerous circumstances for the Jews. Maybe God has raised you up for such a time as this. And I think of that phrase a lot involved in terms of the work you're doing and the work I'm doing and work stand to reason. And all of our players and all of our colleagues are doing speaking the truth with courage and also in love. And something I've noticed over the last. I'm almost 52 years in the Lord and engaged in defending the faith most of that time. But when I first started out, it was pretty shrill. And now what I've seen is our voices have calmed down, which communic a tremendous sense of confidence, I think. In other words, we're not so shrill. It's part of our culture at stand to reason. You know, calm, cool, collected, good ambassadors. By the way, you mentioned Charlie and I didn't notice this before. I watched some videos just recently since his killing, and Charlie would say something with a hand mic and then he'd lay the microphone down. In other words. Okay, now it's your turn. You go ahead, it's all yours, I'll listen. That communicates a tremendous amount of confidence. So the calmness with which we engage, the courage that we engage with, this all has a powerful impact on people and this is a time that's unlike any other time. I became a Christian during the Jesus movement, John, and, and that was a great time to become a Christian. Now is a great time to become a Christian in a very different way. Because Christianity is not cool. It is not a pop movement like it was then. Now it's getting serious. And I have seen the sides in this recent event with Charlie get polarized. You mentioned a few moments ago just the response. Well, there's been two responses. Some, you know, about a million people in Great Britain are rallying on behalf of the memory of Charlie Kirk. And at the same time you're seeing people that are rallying in favor of the killer and others like them. It's bizarre.
- [17:36]
B
It is. And it tells you why. When Oz calls it a civilizational moment, he's onto something because we're untethered. When we say ideas have consequences and bad ideas have victims, we don't just mean for individuals, although that is true, but we mean for civilizations. You know, a civilization cannot unmoor from the truth. Oz uses the analogy of a cut flower in which, you know, a flower, when it's cut off from its roots will stay shiny and pretty for a while, but it'll wither and die. Civilizations, yeah, civilizations are rarely just cut off overnight. I mean, I don't know any that are. They fade away. And that's really the state that, that we're in now. They're really susceptible to revolution. We've seen that even in the West. Right. That other forces. Revolution rarely ends. Well, I mean you have a couple good examples and mostly bad examples of revolutions. Yeah, but, but the reality is, I don't know whether, Greg, what the future of Western, the Western world is. I, I want to be, you know, I don't want to be a pessimist, I don't want to be an optimist. I want to be a realistic. It may be a Wilberforce moment where God uses his people to restore and renew like he did in 19th century Britain. It could be a Wilberforce moment, sorry, a Bonhoeffer moment where no matter what you try, it's just going to collapse. But you know, the thing is the question is what kind of people are we going to be in this time and place? And Bonhoeffer is a model for the generations because of his faithfulness, so his Wilberforce. And so we have to look at that and that's all we can know.
- [19:17]
A
Well, I remember, you know, reading about Bonhoeffer, for example, in 33 when Hitler was elected and they passed the Aryan paragraph which says, you know, Jews can't take any position of leadership in any organization. Well, that applied to the church, too. And Bonhoeffer said, well, wait a minute. You can't tell us how to run the church. Only Jesus can do that. And so he spoke and wrote letters and cajoled and back and forth and did all he could until finally he just drew a line in the sand and said no and said no. And there's a whole lot of Christians that went along with the Third Reich in everything. A lot of members of the church is what I mean. But not that we're at a Third Reich moment, but this is a perilous moment. And I think the documentary shows that. Well, and I love the different people that are highlighted there that are cameo their circumstances. You mentioned Chloe Cole. I think that's a transgender girl. Right.
- [20:20]
B
That is a wonderful redemption. So many lessons in this, Greg. In fact, one that relates to what you were just saying. So Chloe Cole was deceived by one of the great lies of our day, which is that you can be born into the wrong body. It really has targeted young girls. She was an example of this double mastectomy at age 16. And, you know, when you think about lost causes, you know, that kind of story, you're like, there's no turning back from that. But there is, because that's what's so good about truth. Truth can renew, it can restore. So first she comes to the truth about her own body, and then she is fully. And by the way, Charlie Kirk had an influence in her life to this. She eventually comes to Christ. Now think about that order, because what you and I have been told by those who want to capitulate to the bad ideas of our time is that if you make a big deal about this sexual stuff, then you're going to turn people away from Christ. Chloe came to Christ after coming to the truth about it was coming to the truth about herself. And God is so gracious. First of all, that truth is true about everything. Right. It's not just spiritual truth or religious truth. It's true, true truth. And that. That has pointed her, you know, to Christ. And now God is using her mess to turn her into an unbelievable messenger. Chloe is an incredible spokesperson for truth right now.
- [21:44]
A
Yeah. And she's got a platform. She's taken the tragedy of her life, her own personal life, and then she's bringing life into the lives of other people as a result of that. I did think, though, obviously, when you said there's no going back There is going back, but that doesn't mean there aren't going to be consequences long term.
- [22:01]
B
Yeah.
- [22:02]
A
And so, you know, she's going to have to live with those. And she even talks about them quite candidly. And then you, have you mentioned the baker, Jake Jack Phillips. Oh, that's a great stuff. Masterpiece Cake Shop. And this guy, he in your environs there in Colorado, you're in Colorado Springs. And you know, and he's had a fight, this battle a number of times. The piece just talks about his first battle with the courts, but I think he's had to revisit that a number of times. It's a great account of a person who is willing to just say no. Just that line in the sand, like Bonhoeffer, and paid quite a price for that, ended up being justified and making a way for so many others to live according to truth too, because he was willing to suffer through that whole process with the Supreme Court, etc.
- [22:53]
B
No, no, Kidd, I. People ask what my favorite story is and those are my two favorites. And then I have three more. So there's. I just love them all. I mean, but I know Jack and I was on my front porch, Greg, in Colorado, when reading the newspaper, remember newspapers? Those paper things had actual words on them. Yeah, real newspaper. And I read that a baker refuses to bake a cake for a same sex wedding. And two things came to my mind. Number one, we don't have same sex weddings in Colorado. This was before. This was before Obergefell. This was a 40 state movement. So I thought, how could he be in trouble for something that, you know, doesn't exist?
- [23:30]
A
Right.
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B
But then I thought, that guy's in a lot of trouble. And I had no idea even then how much it seemed like there was an inevitability that he was going to lose this.
- [23:40]
A
He.
- [23:40]
B
This started a 13 year battle that had three different battles in it, three different lawsuits where the state of Colorado went after him twice and then allowed a private citizen to harass him. You know what stands out to me about Jack's story? Two things. Number one, Jack could have just baked the cake and we would have never heard his name. His business would have never been affected. His name would have never made national attention. He made a decision not because he wanted any of that to happen, but because he knew what truth was.
- [24:10]
A
Right.
- [24:12]
B
The second thing that comes to mind is after 13 years, I do not know a more joyful person than Jack Phillips. And I was talking on another podcast earlier and the host, Cissy Graham, who is Billy Graham's granddaughter. She said, you know, whenever I hear Jack Phillips story, I tear up. And I said, you know what? Whenever Jack Phillips tells his story, he tears up. And you know what? He tears up at Greg. He tears up at the number of people who have come to Christ because of his story. And I think he could have sat this one out. And Jack's story is quintessential. Trust God, do the right thing, Trust God with the results, and God can be trusted with the results. God can be trusted with our obedience.
- [25:06]
A
I'm glad you kind of closed that point off here that way, because it isn't like, do the right thing so that lots of people can get saved, because sometimes it works out that way and sometimes it doesn't. You don't know. You don't know. But it is, do the right thing for the sake of honoring God, and then God will figure out what he's going to do with your obedience. It might be very modest. It might be massive. What the important thing is is the audience of one. Now, I don't want to miss Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and I hope I pronounced her name right, because I never could get it right. You. But she's got a very different kind of story because she goes from this impoverished Muslim family in Africa to living in Holland and then, I think in Netherlands, and then coming to the US and then going, becoming totally hostile to any religion. She's an atheist, and now she's a follower of Jesus. That, for me, was one of the most riveting of the five stories, although all of them had their unique aspects to them.
- [26:19]
B
So Ayaan's story emerges as we're making this documentary. Greg, it's crazy, and that's why it's so stunning to us. We just kept going. This is what it's all about. Like, her story is so quintessential, first of all, that what's true about someone individually they need God, is true about the whole civilization. Second, we invited her to be a spokesperson in the first half. In other words, when people were talking about civilizations and talking about how civilizations rise and fall and her experience having gone from a Muslim civilization to the west and how a secular west isn't enough in and of itself, stuff that she had written and talked about just in the last two years. And as we're going through this process, her personal faith journey becomes more and more obvious. Now. There's a miraculous side to her story, and I don't want to give it away. It's in the film. But it tells you how kind God is to not only be the truth about the world, but can transform an individual life. But listen, she was a new atheist, you know, along with Peter Hitchens. Sorry, Christopher Hitchens. Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and so on. I mean, this is a group that obviously told us that God's a delusion and religion poisons everything. Some of them now are pointing us back to cultural Christianity. That's what we thought her story was at the time. And then it just became clear, no, something else happened. And I'm not going to give away the details because it's too good.
- [27:47]
A
Sure, that's right.
- [27:47]
B
But let me say one thing, okay, this is the point, because she talks about her journey from radical Islam into the secular west to truth, to God. And she says, my whole life I've been looking for freedom and I'm finally free. And isn't that what Jesus said himself about truth?
- [28:08]
A
Right. That's right.
- [28:10]
B
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Her story is amazing. An example of that.
- [28:17]
A
You mentioned cultural Christianity, and this is such an odd thing that's happening. Justin Brierly, you probably know Justin, I.
- [28:25]
B
Just talked to him about it on my podcast. Absolutely fascinating conversation.
- [28:28]
A
Well, he had the podcast Unbelievable. In the UK there, and he's written this book that. Let me see if I get it. The Remarkable Surprising Rebirth of the Belief in God. And he talks about some of these individuals and Ayaan is one of the examples there. But this cultural Christianity, it's so unusual that even Richard Dawkins, as hardboiled of an atheist as he is, he says, I am a cultural Christian. And what he means, he said, I don't believe a word of that stuff, but I want to live in a culture where the people do believe it and act consistently with it. And another one that made the same kind of comments, Douglas Murray, who is also raising the issues that you raise in truth Rising danger to Western civilization. It's collapsing right before our eyes. And he makes the same comment, I think he calls himself a Christian atheist or an atheist Christian or something, because his convictions are atheistic, I think, or used to be. But all of his values are Christian. And he realizes I value those things that fit in a different worldview than my own. And both of these are acknowledgments that the. The details, including the values of the Christian view of reality, resonate with the deepest intuitions that we have in our heart as to what reality is actually like. And of course, this is why we have The Reality Conferences and the Story of Reality this season, which you're a prominent part in. And did you do breakouts also in addition to the evening?
- [30:13]
B
I did, yeah. I talked about the image of God and then did a session for the Leader, really, on some of the aspects of Truth Rising because of this, because, you know, we have two of those individuals, by the way, in the film who are advocating for cultural Christianity. Maybe not as blatantly as some of them, but David Berlinsky, not a believer, a brilliant mathematician, quirky guy, has some real, some of the best lines in the film.
- [30:35]
A
That's right.
- [30:36]
B
And Konstantin Kissin, a young guy, immigrant from Russia, really, really funny guy who, you know, as he says in the film, he's a Russian who loves Britain. That's how you know he's not a, you know, a Brit.
- [30:47]
A
Yeah.
- [30:48]
B
Is that he likes. But you know, one of the things that they're pointing out is not just that or recognizing the good of Christianity, but there is a real sense in which there is a recognition of the bankruptcy of secularism and it's just not going to deliver. You can't build on this stuff. And Greg, I was thinking about this. Since you threw in how old we are, and by the way, you're way older than my. Than I am. I just want everyone to know. But 25 years ago, and look, I learned all this stuff, you know, from Chuck Colson and Bill Brown and Norm Geisler, you know, that's when I first learned it. So we're talking about hozhnism and this idea that there's no, there's no untruth and everyone's the definer of their own truth. And you know, we would use these hypotheticals, Greg, we would say, well, if everyone can define reality for themselves, doesn't that mean that stop could mean go and up could mean down and boy could mean girl. And those were all hypotheticals. And Greg, here we are. At least one of those things is now debated in Congress.
- [31:48]
A
Yeah, you can't parody this kind of stuff because the minute you try to parody it, it becomes reality. And it reminds me of Francis Schaeffer's famous line, what was unthinkable yesterday is thinkable today and ordinary and commonplace tomorrow. This is why so many of our young people, even in the church, they, they, it's hard for them to even make sense of the idea that same sex marriage is somehow morally suspect because it just seems so ordinary to them now.
- [32:18]
B
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. And I think that we have been told, Christians and this is really one of the main points is that we have been told we have to go along, you have to be relevant, and you don't want to say things that are going to push people away from the gospel and somehow that always ends up being true truth. Don't speak the truth out loud. And I just think these stories are an example. I think you think about just what we've seen in the last 10 years, from the rise of the nuns, many of whom who had spiritual baggage from churches to the rise of the spiritual, who have baggage with secularism. Trust the truth, because ultimately the truth is the person of Jesus Christ. Chloe Cole says this really well in the film. You know, there's not your truth or my truth. Jesus Christ is the truth. And that is solid ground. You know, to the point of the title of your newsletter, that is solid ground. And it's reliable. And I think we are seeing an emergence of people willing to tell the truth. We need to see more. Our vision for the film, Greg, is simply this. Could you imagine the difference it would make in America, just America, if there were a thousand more truth tellers than there were yesterday?
- [33:32]
A
Yeah.
- [33:33]
B
You know, if there were a thousand people who had their own Jack Phillips moment and decided, you know what, I'm not going to go along with the lies. I'm going to just stand. I'm going to do it right. You know, not going to be a jerk. I'm going to do it right. And I think all that's possible, and that's the vision of the film.
- [33:50]
A
Well, John, just to repeat, this wonderful thinker that we have on board, my friend and my guest on the show is also one of our keynote speakers for reality this season. We still got Seattle coming up in October. We have Minneapolis coming up in November. And then we have February is Dallas. March is where, Philadelphia. Right. And then. And we'll be in Southern California in April. John will be at all of them. And we really are here, though, today to make, to do two things, to say, watch this documentary, Truth Rising, and you can find that. Tell me if I'm wrong here, John. TruthRising.com Is that right?
- [34:38]
B
TruthRising.com and it's absolutely free. Focus on the Family has been a wonderful partner on this, as is Oz. And we just decided right up front we're going to. To remove all the barriers. We want this to. Basically, here's the journey. This is civilization. This is the state of the West. You've been called to this incredible moment. Here's how you can be a voice of courage. Here's what it means to be a voice of truth and courage and then that hopefully will lead people into a four part study that's available on truthrising.com, absolutely free on four aspects of what I think will make us voices of courage, hope, truth, identity, calling and that's all available there.
- [35:16]
A
Truthrising.com yeah, so the history stuff is really important. Let's set the foundation. But this documentary is a call to our calling in the broadest sense of the word that who we are to be in the body of Christ in the world to make a difference, putting our hand to the plow and not looking back. John, you've been great. I've sure enjoyed our friendship over the many years and thrilled that you found time to spend reality with us for all six sessions. So thank you for the that.
- [35:43]
B
Hey listen Greg, I'm so grateful for you. You've been so, so good and kind. Thanks for spreading the word about truth Rising and looking forward to more of these reality events too.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah, we'll do that. Truth Rising.com is where you can find it. And my guest of course, John Stonestreet. All right, let's take a break and I'll be back with with your questions on Standard Reason. Stay with us.
- [36:05]
C
As a high school teacher, I always had a red pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front of my students teaching a lesson, you could find me assessing assignments, grading essays, and evaluating ex. The red pen played a crucial role in the educational development of my students. With it, I questioned their assumptions, expose their errors, and challenged them to think critically. You see, a good teacher doesn't merely tell his students that they're wrong. A good teacher shows his students why they're wrong so they don't make the same mistakes twice. He corrects because he cares. Last year, I was scrolling through social media and frankly, I was discouraged at all the bad thinking that undergirded much of what I was reading.
- [36:44]
B
Then it hit me.
- [36:45]
C
What if someone applied the red pen to this flawed thinking? And Red pen logic with Mr. B was born. In the last few months, Red Pen Logic has grown in popularity through our engaging and shareable educational graphics and videos. We are helping people, especially young people, assess bad thinking by using good thinking. And we have a lot of fun in the process. So here's your homework assignment, like the Red Pen Logic Facebook page so you don't miss our next graphic. And subscribe at the red red Pen Logic YouTube channel so you don't miss a single video. Class dismissed.
- [37:22]
D
Would you like an STR speaker to speak at your event? Greg, Allen, Tim and John are available both in person and online. Simply email bookingstr.org to schedule them today. Our speakers can address a wide range of topics from bioethics, gender issues and science to theology, philosophy and how to respond to other worldviews, all from a biblical perspective. Whether it's a Sunday sermon conference or online event, we are here to equip Christians to effectively influence the culture for Christ. To explore speaker bios, learn more about the topics we cover, or discover additional options, visit str.org then email bookingstr.org to secure Greg, Allen, Tim or John for your event.
- [38:17]
A
Alrighty. Well, let's go to some open mic calls. Once again. These are calls that you make to us, usually through our website. Go to our homepage str.org and look under Podcast Live broadcast. In there you'll have a place to be able to leave your question audibly with an open mic call and then eventually we get to it. And the first one here is from Richard Bueller. Now I don't think the spelling of the last name is the same, but there was a very, very well known Christian named Rich Bueller in Southern California who did a talk show called Talk from the Heart for many years and he was a friend of mine, someone I professionally had dealings with. Actually was made the opportunity for me to get into talk radio because Rich left his role there at kbrt, which left a big opening. And then I was at 1990 was, I was, I was, you know, enlisted to fill some of that time slot. And so I'm thankful to Rich Bueller, at least the first one. I actually think his name was spelled differently than the Richard Bueller that is our first questioner. So Rich, what's on your mind?
- [39:46]
E
My question is rather easy to answer. I just want to know if you have a systematic approach to helping people understand the Gospel of Christ. The good News. How do you talk to a non believer and give them an apologetic approach to understanding that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Lord of your life?
- [40:48]
A
Well, that's a great question and I don't say that flippantly. It gets right to the heart of things, doesn't it? And Richard, there are methodologies that people have that kind of sum up the gospel and allow people to respond. Maybe an invitation at the end. And all of these have value. The four spiritual laws. I think Bill Bright with what used to be called Campus Crusade for Christ now crew wrote that. I guess they still use that booklet. I actually memorized that whole booklet, they were simple steps and these four spiritual laws. And it was great to get into conversations with people about it. And it gave people an opportunity to pray at the end if they wanted to put Jesus on the throne of their own life and receive forgiveness, etc. That's all part of this very simple, very straightforward, easy to use. And these are all virtues of that method. I think Billy Graham's organization had a pamphlet or even a little tract called Steps to Peace with God. And they were basically the four steps with different words. Then there are things that people use that's called the Roman Road. And there are verses in the Bible that lays out this basic pattern. And I actually don't know the Roman Road. I know some of the verses, but I can't lay it out. Here it is. Here's a 1, 2, 3, 4. But they amount to the same thing, and that is to identify. Let me see if I can put this right. Identify the purpose and role that human beings have in this world to be in friendship with their Creator. And there's a problem. And the problem is that there is sin and rebellion that has separated us from God. And God has made a solution for that through Jesus. And our response to Jesus in trust is what secures for us the good ending of the story, not the bad ending of the story. Okay, so there is your very, very broad characterization, I think, of the Gospel. That can be really helpful to people. All right, I don't. As a matter of habit, I guess I don't follow that in that kind of rigidly. Many people are familiar with Ray Comfort, and he's fabulous. And Ray has his own particular of moving forward by asking questions about one's culpability, one's guilt before God, the sin that we all have, and now what? All right, So I think this kind of bad news before the good news is really a helpful way to think of it. And when I get involved in conversations, what I am first looking to do, Richard, is I am trying to think of what is it in this unique set of circumstances that I can contribute. All right, so it might be that a person is pushing back at me with a challenge to Christianity. And what I'm trying to do is trying to deflect the challenge and not merely deflect it, but maybe answer it so that it is deflected and it's no longer a problem for them. Thinking about Christianity, the plausibility of Christianity. Okay. Or it may be that something else is taking place. But I think when I start getting down to the In a certain sense, the nitty gritty of the gospel proper. I want to start, by and large with the bad news. I don't want to tell people how much Jesus loves them, all right? There is no one in the New Testament that does that in the communication of the Gospel. In fact, I'm trying to think. I can't even think of any time when Jesus does that, when he's. I don't know, I could be mistaken. But is there any time Jesus is speaking out to the audience, says, I love you? I don't think. And certainly this doesn't happen in the Book of Acts because the word love doesn't even occur in the Book of Acts. It's not there at all. And the 13 times the gospel is preached there, either to individuals or groups, that isn't what they lead with, the love of Jesus or the love of God. Instead, they kind of lead with the bad news. You know, this Jesus whom you've crucified, God has made him both Lord and Christ. And they all cut to the quick. That's Acts 2 and other things like that. A judgment's coming, and that's not good news, that's bad news. The good news is there's a pardon that's available. All right? So that's Ray Comfort's approach. I think he wrote a piece called Hell's Best Kept Secret. I think it's a little booklet and he had a tape. And for a number of years, every time somebody had purchased something, we threw a copy of that tape in there, cassette tape. And some of you don't have any idea what I'm talking about. That's how long ago that was. But what's Hell's Best Kept Secret? Hell, the law that convicts you and sends you there. Well, it's actually God who sends you there because of the violation of his law. And I think that's really important. And what sometimes we communicate is we undersell man's culpability. And then we oversell a kind of. Of, gee, what's the right sentimentalist understanding of God's love? And that's just not the way the gospel was communicated by Jesus or by those who he trained personally to take the message after him. Okay? So I think that's going to be a safer way. If I'm thinking about how do I do this in a tactically sound way. I want to make the risk or the challenge, the danger clear to people if I'm able to get that far. A lot depends on the nature of the circumstances. So I'm Dealing with what God gives me, so to speak. But there was one time, long time ago, and Frank Beckwith and I had just written the book Relativism, feet firmly planted in midair, and I had an invitation to speak at a Barnes and Noble, and they were selling the book there. And so the author shows up and gives a presentation in the stacks there. People have chairs and whatever. I've done that a couple of different times with that book. It's great, great fun. But afterwards, somebody came up to me and he said, you know, I heard you talking over there and I just have this question of you. Why do I need Jesus? Now, that book doesn't talk about Jesus, but it was clear that I was representing the Christian worldview as I'm talking about moral relativism and why do I need Jesus? He says, I'm a Jewish person. He said, I try to live the best life I can, so why do I need Jesus? Okay, great opportunity for the gospel. Wouldn't you like to have somebody ask you that question? But I was very careful about the way I answered. And what I said first was, do you mind if I ask you a few questions? No, go ahead. All right, here's the first question. Do you believe that people or do you think that people who commit moral crimes ought to be punished? People do bad stuff, should they pay? And he said, well, since I'm a prosecuting attorney. Yeah. Now, I got lucky with the attorney business, right? I didn't know that. But most people have this sense, if you do bad stuff, you got to pay. You don't get off scot free, you know, he got away with murder, man. See, people have these moral intuitions that inform their reaction. And so, no, he said. He said, I think they should pay. And I said, I agree with you. Okay, second question. Have you ever done any bad things? Now that's personal, right? What do you think he said? He said, yeah, I guess I have. Now, if he said he hasn't, I just want to talk to his wife, right? Or his kids. But he said, yeah, I've done bad things. And I said, so have I. And then I said, look at where we've come. Just in two questions, we both believe that people who do bad things ought to be punished. And we both believe that we've done those things. Then I said, do you know what I call that? He said, what? I said, I call that bad news. All right? Now, do I need to tell this man he's a sinner? No, he just told me because of the question I asked. Do I have to tell him he's under judgment. No, he already knows that. He wasn't thinking about it when he walked into the Barnes and Noble, probably, but now, because the questions I asked, now he's thinking about it. And then I went on to explain, since he knows the bad news, like we're both in the dock and the judge is about to lower the gavel upon two guilty people, and the judge pauses and he says, by the way, are either of you interested in a pardon? Of course, if you know you're guilty and you're going to be judged, this makes more sense. Right? Right, yeah. Pardon sounds pretty good right about now. And then I was able to then explain to him in very simple terms about Jesus, you know, took the wrap, he paid the price, he took the punishment that we deserve so that if we put our trust in him, that payment is applied to our account and we receive a pardon. Okay, there you go. That's the simple, the simple gospel. It didn't get any simpler than that. But I didn't use a bunch of, you know, flowery gospel language. I just, just explained using a tactical approach. And incidentally, that entire dialogue, as I recall, is in the tactics book and a version of it is in the street smarts book, I think. But the, the, the point is meant to show how I can use questions to establish a foundation that is necessary for communicating the good news of the Gospel. First the bad news, then the good news, first the bad news, then the good news. And that's my approach. But if I had to have a little style, a little two step program, that would be it. And it's interesting that Jesus did make an appeal. But you find this later on in the Book of Matthew, where at least the version or the Gospel that I recall reading it in, Jesus says, come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Now, earlier in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus doesn't start that way. Jesus gives the Beatitudes famously, and they're wonderful. But for the people who are not Christian and who think that the Sermon on the Mount is fabulous, I think they're just giving it lip service. They've heard other people say, oh, Jesus, Sermon on the Mount, so great they remember a couple of Beatitudes, forget that one of them is, blessed are the poor in spirit and blessed are you when people persecute you and say all kinds of false things about you on my behalf behalf. Happy are you because your reward and heaviness, great. They don't remember those and they don't remember what follows where Jesus makes clear the demands of the law. Don't murder. You're not going to get rid of the law. No, you're not going to get rid of it. All has to be fulfilled, right? And then he says, don't murder. I haven't killed anybody. Did you ever call your brother an idiot? Sure. He is an idiot. It. Well, you're going to hell. That's Jesus. Don't commit adultery. Didn't do that. Do you ever think about it? You're going to hell. That's Jesus. This is not good news. This is bad news. He says in that section, your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, or there's no hope for you. Now, those are the popes and cardinals of their day, right? These are like the most religious, spiritual people going, and you got to be better than them. What luck is there for the rank and file? And I think all of that, including the last sentence of that portion of the Sermon on the Mount, you are to be perfect, as my Heavenly Father is perfect. All of that is to put the burden of the law heavily on people's shoulders. Bad news, bad news, bad news. And then later on, he said, okay, you feeling that? Come to me. Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Because my yoke is easy, My burden is light. We follow Jesus, we get forgiveness and cleansing and the help of the Holy Spirit. That changes everything, doesn't it? Okay, so that's kind of the way I want to do gospel presentation. I don't want to tell people, hey, hey, Jesus loves you. This is a big deal in the Jesus movement. I acknowledge that. And God used it. All right. And doesn't Jesus love them? Well, kind of. I mean, yes and no. What do you mean and no? Well, he's also mad at them, too. I mean, think of Psalm 5 and what Psalm 11. Those Psalms actually say, God hates those who do evil. Whoa, that's pretty heavy. Where's all the love? Well, the love comes in forgiveness. And he makes forgiveness possible because he loves people enough to provide a way of pardon. But he's not happy with people, generally speaking. In fact, is it one of the Proverbs says even the prayer of the ungodly is an abomination to God. Whoa. So. So there are ways to communicate that without sounding so extreme, but I think we have to do that. The good news is not good news without the bad news. And the good news is really, really good, because the Bad news is really, really bad. Sometimes I ask people, or maybe an audience, I'll just say how many here care about insulin? You don't have to raise your hand. I know people who are diabetic. The rest of you who are not diabetic, you don't care about insulin, insulin until you get diabetic and then you're going to care about insulin right quick. And the same thing is true, I think in this situation. If people don't realize their fallenness, then they are not going to hunger for a pardon. All right. And there's an old saying that says whatever a person is one with, he will be one too. As in W O N, whatever a person is one with, they will be one too. If you are one with this message that you're just fine with Jesus and everything's cool and wonderful and he loves you so much and that's the long and short of it and become a Christian so you can experience the love of Jesus. Well, I think that is true. But we're leaving out a big giant thing. And if they're one with this soft message of Jesus love, then they're going to be one to that, that and then they're going to be expected everything to be lovey dovey after they start walking with Christ and that ain't the way it works. And all of a sudden things get hard and difficult, then they wonder, holy smokes, where is Jesus? All right. But if you're one with the message of sin, satisfied, met result by the grace of God through Christ, then that changes everything. And that's what you'll be one too. A humble walk with Christ. Hope that helps. Richard. All right friends, that's it for me for this hour. Greg Koukl for Stan de Reason. Give him heaven. Bye bye now. Sam.