Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast

Episode: Interview – Natasha Crain, "When Culture Hates You"
Host: Greg Koukl
Guest: Natasha Crain
Date: February 5, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Greg Koukl and Natasha Crain on her new book, When Culture Hates You: Persevering for the Common Good as Christians in a Hostile Public Square. The discussion focuses on the challenges Christians face in an increasingly antagonistic culture, the importance of biblical clarity, and practical ways believers can engage with a world that often finds Christian convictions not just disagreeable, but harmful. Crain and Koukl explore the roots of the culture’s hostility, key issues in the public square, and how Christians can thoughtfully and graciously persevere for the true common good.

Shifts in Natasha Crain’s Writing Focus

[01:01 – 04:01]

• From Parenting to Broader Cultural Engagement:
  • Crain describes her earlier work as focused on apologetics for parents (“making it easy for parents to explain things to their kids”).
  • In 2020, noticing the convergence of secular social justice movements and the confusion within the Church, she pivoted to address broader cultural issues.
  • Her blog post on the intersection of social justice and biblical values went viral, prompting her to write Faithfully Different (2022) and now When Culture Hates You.
  • Quote: “Somebody needs to talk more about these things, about this intersection between the secular worldview and the biblical worldview. How do we keep them clearly separated?” (03:31, Natasha Crain)

Addressing Hostility Towards Christians

[04:01 – 10:00]

• Heightened Culture War Issues:
  • Topics include abortion, gender, marriage, sexuality, politics, and Christian nationalism.
  • Koukl commends Crain’s lucid, urgent, and grounded approach.
  • Crain shares that her aim is not only analysis, but practical encouragement—her book is “a kick in the pants and a pep talk.” (06:52)
  • Many are weary of “culture war” books that feel depressing; Crain wants hers to inspire and embolden practical action rooted in biblical worldview.

Understanding the Book’s Title: “When” Culture Hates You

[08:14 – 10:23]

• Crain emphasizes increasing stories of Christians being ostracized—loss of jobs, relationships, businesses—not for being “wrong,” but for being considered “toxic” and “harmful.”
• The cultural shift means biblical convictions are now seen not as mere errors but as oppressive evils.
• Quote: “It’s another thing to experience [hostility] and understand where it’s coming from... When you do understand that, then you can engage with people a little bit better.” (09:50, Natasha Crain)

Exploring “The Common Good” and Its Conflicts

[10:23 – 13:00]

• Defining ‘Common Good’:
  • The term has been used in various contexts (sometimes negatively, as by critics who accuse it of promoting socialism).
  • Crain uses it simply as “the flourishing of society, our life in common together.”
  • The real “culture war,” she argues, is over what is truly good for society—every side thinks it’s pursuing good; the difference is the standard by which ‘good’ is judged.
  • Quote: “My hope is that Christians will start thinking more in terms of, well, how do I know what is good? As a Christian, I have God’s word to go to…we can be clear about the common good.” (12:13, Natasha Crain)

Biblical Anthropology vs. Cultural Self-Invention

[13:00 – 17:14]

• What Does It Mean to be Human?
  • Koukl and Crain discuss how all debates on the common good come back to “anthropology”—Who is man?
  • The Christian view: humans are created in God’s image, with purpose and objective design; going against that design is intrinsically harmful.
  • Cultural view: purpose and identity are self-defined.
  • Quote: “If we have a Creator who has made us in his image and gives us a purpose, then anything that goes against that purpose is going to be harmful to us in an objective sense.” (14:45, Natasha Crain)
• Cultural Blind Spots about Human Nature:
  • Koukl: “Culture does not take seriously the fallenness of human beings…then you run into all kinds of difficulties and troubles.”
  • Crain offers the Joe Rogan example—Rogan senses a qualitative distinction in humans but lacks an explanation outside the biblical worldview.

The Power of Distinctions & Purpose

[17:14 – 21:50]

• Distinctions as a Judeo-Christian Motif:
  • The biblical worldview is marked by clear distinctions—God/man, male/female, humans/animals, right/wrong.
• Identity, Purpose, and Sin:
  • Culture selectively acknowledges positive aspects of human nature but ignores sinfulness, leading to false optimism about “flourishing.”
• Freudian Legacy:
  • Freud’s reduction of identity to sexual instincts paves the way for today’s conflations of sexuality and identity.

Hostility: Not Universal, but Specific

[20:52 – 22:24]

• The culture’s hatred isn’t blanket; when Christians do things the culture approves (e.g., soup kitchens), there is praise. But opposing prevailing moral norms (e.g., abortion opposition) brings hostility.
• Quote: “They hate us for some very specific [things].” (21:50, Natasha Crain)

Foundational Truths: God’s Revelation, Love, and Justice

[22:24 – 26:55]

• Crain: The foundational Christian conviction is that God has spoken—through nature and especially through Scripture.
  • Many Christians get moral direction from friends/family, not the Bible (“outrageous…we have the God of the universe…”).
• Definitions of love and justice must come from God, not culture. Culture’s definitions lead to confusion (“love is love”) and perversion of virtue.
• Quote: “Being loving means wanting God’s best for people, even when it’s not what they want for themselves.” (24:22, Natasha Crain)
• Justice, too, is only justice by God’s standard—other standards may align in some cases (helping the poor) but go far astray in others (abortion framed as “reproductive justice”).

Engagement in Politics and Public Policy

[28:26 – 35:30]

• Political Engagement as a Christian Responsibility:
  • Crain explains that politics is simply “how people living in communities make decisions about how they’re going to live together.”
  • Christians should not shy from political advocacy when given the opportunity in a constitutional republic.
  • The Bible, while written in other political contexts, evidences God’s concern for the moral health of societies.
• Objections to Christian Political Advocacy:
  • The common secular objection (“don’t impose your values”) is critiqued: all public policy involves someone’s values being imposed.
  • Crain introduces the “Slavery Test”—would we object to Christian involvement in ending slavery as “imposing values”? Of course not.

Media Double Standards & Progressive Christianity

[35:30 – 37:44]

• Media and culture celebrate Christians involved in public life only when they support progressive values (NYT article “Hallelujah, Progressive Christians Arise!”).
• Conservative Christians, by contrast, are demonized.
• Quote: “Progressive Christians aren’t hated…their political views overwhelmingly line up with progressive values.” (35:59, Natasha Crain)

Christian Nationalism: A Manufactured Scare and Cultural Smokescreen

[37:44 – 43:25]

• Defining the Term:
  • “Christian nationalism” is an ambiguous, often undefined term used by mainstream media as a slur against conservative Christians advocating biblical values.
  • Quote: “What you see is that…you are called a Christian nationalist if you’re advocating for conservative values that are biblically based.” (39:28, Natasha Crain)
• Research and Media Hysteria:
  • Studies label generic statements (“laws should be based on Christian values”) as “Christian nationalist” even though most Christians would naturally agree.
  • The left is never accused of “progressive Christian nationalism”; the label works only one way.

The Sexual Revolution, Queer Theory, and Children

[44:54 – 51:14]

• Current Sexual Revolution Trends:

  • Crain describes the increasing advocacy by a subset of activists for the sexual “liberation” of children—moving beyond “acceptance” to erasure of age-based sexual boundaries.
  • The role of queer theory is highlighted: it rejects all sexual and gender norms, including childhood innocence.
  • Quote: “A group of activists…actually want to remove any kind of age limits advocating for children to have sexual pleasure. They’re looking to get rid of the concept of childhood innocence.” (45:20, Natasha Crain)

• Queer Theory vs. Transgenderism:

  • Queer theory’s opposition to any category or norm actually conflicts with transgender ideology, which depends on clear categories of male and female.
  • This leads to left-on-left conflicts (e.g., feminists vs. certain transgender activists).

The “Velocitization” of Culture and the Danger of Normalizing Extremes

[51:14 – 55:48]

• Koukl references Francis Schaeffer’s warning: what is “unthinkable” today is “ordinary” tomorrow. Cultural acceptance of extremes is rapidly accelerated (“velocitized”).
• Example: once-ridiculed notions like “men can get pregnant” quickly become mainstream orthodoxy.
• Crain agrees, pointing out how Drag Queen Story Hours, rooted in queer theory, are intended to erode norms and mainstream radical ideas.
• Quote: “They’re trying to make it mainstream so that they can come in on the underside and start to pull in these ideas.” (54:41, Natasha Crain)

Final Reflections: The Stakes for Children and Society

[55:48 – End]

• Crain’s Warning:
  • Drag Queen Story Hours are not just about “accepting” gender-fluid performance; authored academic papers reveal a purposeful attack on society’s sexual boundaries, targeting children’s innocence.
  • Koukl emphasizes the particularly sinister and devastating implications for families and children.
  • Quote: “To remove the kind of protection we as parents are supposed to be providing…this, to me, it’s as bad as it can get when it comes to family.” (56:22, Greg Koukl)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “This book was somewhere between a kick in the pants, a pep talk, and…an analysis.” (06:52, Natasha Crain)
• “If we have a Creator who has made us in his image and gives us a purpose, then anything that goes against that purpose is going to be harmful to us in an objective sense.” (14:45, Natasha Crain)
• “Being loving means wanting God’s best for people, even when it’s not what they want for themselves. That’s the hardest thing to do. They’re going to hate you for it…but you’re actually being loving according to God’s standards.” (24:28, Natasha Crain)
• “Any kind of public policy involves one group’s views imposing their views on another group.” (32:52, Natasha Crain)
• “Christian nationalism…what you see…is you are called a Christian nationalist if you’re advocating for conservative values that are biblically based.” (39:28, Natasha Crain)
• “A group of activists…actually want to remove any kind of age limits advocating for children to have sexual pleasure. They’re looking to get rid of the concept of childhood innocence.” (45:20, Natasha Crain)

Actionable Takeaways

• Christians must regain moral and spiritual clarity from Scripture—allowing the Bible, not culture, to define love, justice, purpose, and identity.
• Understand that engagement in public policy is not optional but a stewardship opportunity.
• Do not capitulate to shifting language and definitions—recognize how terms like “the common good,” “justice,” and “love” are weaponized.
• Stay vigilant about cultural “velocitization”—yesterday’s fringe is often tomorrow’s mainstream.
• Protect the innocence and well-being of children; advocate for truth even when it brings cultural hostility.

Conclusion

This discussion between Greg Koukl and Natasha Crain showcases the pressing challenges facing Christians who desire to remain faithful, winsome, and courageous in a rapidly worsening public square. Crain’s diagnosis is sober and urgent but also empowering, reminding believers that understanding the roots of cultural hostility enables them to both endure and graciously pursue the true common good.

For more, see:

• Natasha Crain, When Culture Hates You (2025)
• Stand to Reason Podcast archives