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- [00:29]
A
Hello, friends. Greg Kokel here and the show is Stan A Reason, and I thank you for listening in and I'm hoping you will be glad you did. We're going to dedicate this hour to our open mic calls, and that's good news in one sense because there's many of you who have called in with open mic calls and are wondering if we forgot you. Well, we didn't. And I am going to work through the list here this hour. Of course, open mic calls are when you contact us, usually through our website, and leave a question there so we can take your personalized question, hear your voice, hear how you characterize it, and then I can respond to it. Of course, there's no interaction because you're not live on the air with me, but nevertheless, I can respond to the question that you've raised and I'm glad to do that. If you like to leave a question like that. In other words, you don't want to call in during regular showtime at 855-243-9975. And that showtime would be 4 to 6pm Mondays and Tuesdays. Rather, Tuesdays almost said Monday through Friday, which that would be different on Tuesdays when I'm here in the office in the studio doing the shows, you can call in. Amy will take your call, put you in the queue, and after I've talked to others, I will talk to you. Now that sometimes takes a while and an alternative we've offered is the open mic call, so that number again is 855-243-9975 to talk to me during the live show Tuesdays 4 to 6. Or you can do an open mic call by just going to our website, our homepage, str.org and look under podcasts and there it says live Broadcasts and click the button and follow the prompts and make your recording and we'll put you in the queue and we'll be glad to answer the questions. And that's what I'm doing today. So the first question that I have is from Nancy, and it has to do with animal death and the impact of the Fall on the creation. So let's hear what you have to say. Nancy.
- [02:54]
B
Hi Greg, I just wanted to express my gratitude for all you do at Stand to Reason and your clear voice in our culture. I had a question on one of the podcasts you did on Animals Dying before the Fall, and there were a couple passages I thought of with regard to that. I know in 2 Peter, there's a passage that talks about the fact that Scoffers thought that they laughed at the Christians because they were expecting Christ to come back. And they said, everything's been going on as it has been since the beginning. You know, And Peter reminds him that, no, it has not gone on since it has been from the beginning. He reminds him of the flood that drastically changed things. And I know one of the ways it changed things was the lifespan of men was really cut down. The fear of man was put into animals. Men were enabled to eat animals, which they couldn't before the. At least they weren't supposed to before the flood. And then also the fall was another one of those things that drastically changed things. In Romans, it talks about how the creation was made subject to decay in futility. And it seems like when God cursed the ground because of Adam, he changed something fundamental because people had to work really hard to change that. So my question is, sometimes we look at the world as it is, and we think, oh, it has to have been this way ever since the beginning. But I don't. I mean, maybe this is more of a comment than question. So I'm just putting it out there. It just seems like there are things that God does. I mean, he created the world. He can definitely change the way the world works. So, anyway, for what it's worth, thank you.
- [04:47]
A
Yeah, okay. Thank you. And I'm just wondering, am I coming across clearly there, you guys? Okay. It's not in my headsets for some reason. In any event, I'm trusting. I can. You can hear me. Oh, there we go. I fixed it. And yes, Nancy, I agree with you. Things are not as they always have been, if you're counting from the ultimate beginning. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And then we have a characterization of what that amounted to in its totality. And then we have some things that changed everything, and that's the fall and man's rebellion against God. And there's no question in my mind, at least, that this rebellion broke everything. It broke our relationship with God, obviously. It broke our relationship with each other, pretty obviously. You can see it even there in chapter three. This is the woman you gave me, you know, and then the woman says, well, the serpent, he's the one responsible. And then they see each other and they're ashamed because they're naked. And so that is a broken. And from what we see In Romans 8, there is a brokenness in the natural realm. Now, what that entails is not entirely clear to me from Romans 8 and what it says here for the creation. Let me start in verse 19. Let me start in verse 18, Romans 8. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to you. By the way, I'm starting there because that's the beginning of the kind of pericope or paragraph here where this verse is found. And I'm seeing something that never occurred to me before. I have cited this passage many Times, along with 2 Corinthians 4:17. For momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison. And I think that they are kin to each other. But it strikes me now that this might be a little bit more expansive that it is not just the sufferings of this present time that we are. We are experiencing, but it's the and I'm going to put this in scare quotes, sufferings of the world that as a result of the fall that will be repaired. I'm putting it in quotes because the world doesn't suffer. It's not conscious, nor is it, let's see, what's the other word? Does it anxiously long? That's in the next verse, because it's not a conscious being that has wants. But this is a figure of speech here that follows, that is, expressing that things in the creation are not the way it's supposed to be. And there is, in a kind of figurative way, a sense in which even the creation wants to be like it was. Everything good. All right, And I continue here in verse 19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. And the whole creation groans until then. And so there I think this is clearly an anthropomorphism. This is speaking of an inanimate thing as if it were a human being to explain a truth. And that is, that the created order has suffered as is broken is the language I've used and indeed does not respond to humankind the way it did at the beginning. Now, at the beginning there was always work, but now work has turned to toil because the ground is resisting our attempt to cause it to produce something fruitful. All right, and so that's what Paul is capturing here in Romans. He's saying in Romans 8, look, this is a mess, and we suffer. And even the creation is suffering after a fashion, even to the point of groaning, waiting for the time when we will all be transformed, not only human beings into glory, but the creation into glory for the sake of the human beings, all right, Suffering the pains of childbirth together until now. And we see the first fruits of that, the Holy Spirit in our lives. Paul goes on to explain. So I think this doesn't speak necessarily or explicitly of death. And when death came as if there was no death before the fall, and now there's death after the fall. It doesn't speak so much to that issue. It just simply says there was a consequence in humanity, in human relationships and in the world as a result of the fall. And that consequence will be so repaired that it will be hard to even make a comparison between them. In Paul's words, I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with, with the glory that is to be revealed. Okay, so that's the way I would see the Romans passage. Now the second Peter passage is a little different. And in these passages we have to always keep in mind what the writer is trying to communicate. Another way of putting it is what does the writer mean when he makes certain statements here? And to go back to your passage, Nancy, know this. First of all, verse three of chapter three two, Peter, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the Father have fallen asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation. Now that statement is obviously making from the perspective of the mocker. And maybe one simple way of putting it, you say, Jesus is going to come and restore everything. You guys have been saying that for thousands of years now. Peter's writing this in the first century, they are already saying that. And now we got 2,000 years to add to that. So the same kind of mockery can still apply. And Peter's response is to say, well, if you look closer, things haven't been the same. Now keep in mind the mockers are the non believers looking from a human perspective. They're going to have to go all the way Back to Genesis 1 and look at the Creation and then look at the Fall and then look at the judgment of the flood. They're not remembering all of that. They're just thinking about, wow, the world has continued without any intervention by God. The kind of thing you're concerned about, it hasn't happened yet, so it will not happen in the future. That's all they're saying. All right? And of course, this is what Peter Says, you know, there was a judgment, there was a beginning miracle, there was a judgment and there'll be a future miracle, essentially. And so he is saying there has been some changes, but that actually isn't the main point. He's saying they are mistaken. There has been a long season of stasis since those dramatic things, but that's not always going to be the case. Jesus will return and then he makes a statement that is frequently misunderstood. I'm amazed at how I see people misunderstanding it when it strikes me as a simple thing to. To see properly. And it's this passage. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years. Now, it doesn't stop there, but that's where a lot of people stop. And what they think is that Peter is giving a kind of a calculation. A day is a thousand. A day. Oh, a thousand years is a day. And so it says the first day and the second day and the third day in Genesis 1, it's the first thousand years or the second thousand years, or the third thousand years, or maybe even much longer than that. That is not the point that Peter is making. He is not giving you a calculation, a means of calculating time passing. And oh, day means a thousand years. Because he doesn't stop there, he keeps going. Notice, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day. So do we think reading there in Revelation 20. What 20 or something where it talks about the thousand year reign of Christ? Oh, that's just a day. He's just, you know, in and out. Because I'm doing a calculation there. It says a thousand years is as one day, a day is a thousand years. No, both of those are mistaken because the writer here is not meaning to give a calculation. A what's the word? Like a recipe for calculating or like an equation. How do I know that? I keep reading. Next verse, verse 9. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. What is the writer saying when he uses this comment about a thousand years or a day, and a day is a thousand years, etc. He's saying God does not experience the passage of time the way we do. To use a highfalutin philosophical word. The phenomenology of time is different for God than it is for us. So we're doing something boring and time drags on. We're doing Something we like, oh, over already, man. It seems like we just started. Now the time has run out. If both of those things happened in an hour, they both took the same amount of time. But the awareness of the passage of time was different. And of course, this is not even profound. Everybody knows this. The days drag on and the years fly by. The phenomenology, the awareness, the feeling of the passage of time changes with the circumstances. Even though the beat of time is exactly the same, 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to an hour, 24 hours to a day, etc. Etc. Time just moves along, but we experience it differently. And so what the writer is saying is, to you, this seems like a long time. Well, nothing's happened yet, so it's never going to happen. It's taking so long. And all the writer is saying is, doesn't feel long to God. To God, you know, one day is a thousand years. A thousand years is one day. It's not the same. The phenomenology of time for God is different than for us. So he is not slow, as some count Slowness, verse nine. Something else is going on. It's not tardiness, it's long suffering. He is waiting because there are ones who will come into the kingdom while he's waiting that would not come into the kingdom if he didn't wait. And that's why he's waiting. And if it seems like a long time to you, it doesn't seem like a long time to God. What it seems like to God is patience, long suffering. So I don't see that this verse in 2 Peter 3 relates to the issue of death before the fall or anything like that. I mean, clearly you're right, Nancy, things have changed. And that's a point that's being made in two Peter, that if you think from the very beginning things haven't gone the way they've always gone, it's not a uniformitarianism, which is kind of a secular view. Everything's just continuing because there were these radical interventions of God creating everything, making it just so. Then the fall, and then bamboo, these changes, and then a judgment that comes on in the flood. So God can intervene, but he hasn't intervened in the final sense yet. Is that a long time for us, but not for God? For God it's patience, waiting for the fullness of the believers to come in, waiting for all of the bride of Christ to come in. So there you have that. I hope that's more clear for you. Let's take a break and then we'll come back with more of your questions on Standard Reason. Friends, if you like this broadcast, I know you'll love Strask. It's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy hall and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter. Strask is released twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes long, so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage, or just plain loafing at home. Amy and I tackle your questions on theology and ethics and culture and lots more, offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face. You can listen on Apple podcasts or wherever you download your own shows. Just remember, send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast Strask. That's Strsk.
- [20:39]
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- [21:35]
A
Alrighty, back at you here. All right, the next question from Teresa I'm going to obviously take but I I only with fear and trembling because the challenge that Teresa is asking about is one that I face myself and it isn't like I have, you know, the trick answer too. So let's give it, give it a shot. Teresa, what's on your mind?
- [22:10]
B
Hi Greg, my name's Teresa. I'm calling to ask your thoughts about how we are to deal with our children or grandchildren regarding the different movements that occur. My granddaughter, who will be 30 this year, is currently just very burdened about the genocide that's going on between Israel and Hamas. And of course anything I say, I don't know what I'm talking about. And she listens to these news outlets who are very supportive of Hamas and very critical of anything that Israel is doing and it's just difficult to know how to reach them. And so just wondering what your thoughts are about these adult children and grandchildren who are so caught up in these movements.
- [23:28]
A
Thank you. Well, thank you, Teresa. And I mentioned that I have a little fear and trembling addressing this because this is a difficult challenge. And it's a difficult challenge in part because the people in question are grown ups, adult children or grandchildren. These are people who have made up their own minds, at least for the time being, regarding a number of different things. And they've made up their own minds in a way. Oftentimes that is just mistaken regarding the issues. And especially when they're family members, it's difficult to navigate in a way that protects the relationships in question. So you have children, grandchildren that you want to maintain good relationships with. And by the way, that is absolutely critical. In fact, I would put that at the top as a priority. And the reason is, first of all, it's important that you have good relationships as much as possible, as far as it's possible, if possible, as far as it's within your power, be at peace with all men. That's in Romans 12. Sometimes it's not going to be possible, sometimes it's not going to be within your power. But there's a very strong emphasis in New Testament scripture on peace between people, particularly other Christians, but also those who are not Christians. And this is an example of that. So we want to pursue peace. And if we don't have peace in a relationship because we've kind of drilled down harder on spiritual or ethical issues in the culture, then we are not going to have an opportunity for that person to be persuaded. It's the quality of the relationship that oftentimes is the thing that determines whether the person you're talking to gives an ear to what you're saying or not. If you have a bad relationship, they're just going to shine you on. Okay. And it looks sounds like, Theresa, that's happened a couple of times. Oh, you don't know what you're talking about. You know, you're informed by the wrong people or whatever. So your first priority is to try to maintain the peace. Now, can you make progress on some of these issues? Yes. How? Well, by one. Well, actually, simply put, ask questions, but it would be better if you knew some of the answers regarding the issues that you can make clear with regards to the questions. This notion of genocide has been thoroughly discussed for decades and decades. And so the idea of what genocide is, is clearly established. Now, regarding whether genocide is happening in the Middle east at the hands of the Israelis or the idf, that depends on the definition of genocide. Now, if you have a definition of genocide that seems to be widely accepted and somewhat official. Like, here is the United nations definition of genocide, or here is the whatever, wherever you get it. And I've seen these definitions, and it turns out that when you look at the definition of genocide, the definition does not apply to what Israel is doing there. And so the way I would play this out is I would ask, what is the definition of genocide? But you have to be careful how you ask it. Gently, you got a hostile person when you say genocide. What is your definition of genocide? Now, if they're going to say a lot of people die, that's not enough. And because genocide isn't just when a lot of people get killed by another group of people. I mean, there was genocide happening in the Second World War. The Germans were murdering Jews. Was that genocide? Yes, millions of people died at the hands of the Germans, Jews especially. But 6 million Jews, but also 6 million others, that's genocide. But was it genocide when the allied soldiers invaded the continent, crossed France and invaded Germany, and finally defeated the Germans? They killed lots and lots of people, millions and millions. Was that genocide? Most people would not consider it genocide, even though there were a lot of bodies, because what the Allies were doing was they were killing the people who were committing the genocide to stop the actual genocide. So then genocide isn't just a lot of people getting killed. Rather it's a lot of people getting killed for the wrong reason. In both cases, Germans with Jews and allied forces with German soldiers, lots of people got killed. But the rationale, the reason was entirely different. And that makes a difference. And the definition of genocide. So this is where it may be helpful, especially if you have a more of an official definition in your pocket. You ask, I'm curious, what is genocide? You say that the Jews, Israel is committing genocide. What is genocide? Now, it's interesting in this conversation is that the goal of Iran with regards to Israel is to wipe the entire nation off the map. The goal of Hamas with regards to Israel is to kill as many Israelis as possible. Now, it strikes me, especially when you actually find a definition that's appropriate for genocide, when you apply it there, it seems to me that it's the Hamas that is producing or is. What's the right word? Pursuing genocide rather than the Jews. But all I'm saying here is just get a proper definition of it and then use that definition as a source of your questions. So here's the definition between Hamas and maybe Hezbollah and Israel, who seems to be fulfilling this definition. Now, that's sometimes the best you can do you're going to a third party source. You're not just giving your opinion. They can't say, well, you're misled because you're using somebody else's opinion here. Or definition, which seems to comport, you can make the point that just killing a lot of people is not the same as genocide. It depends the reason you're trying to kill them. And that's captured in the definition. Now, the goal here, as I've mentioned before, is just to put a stone in people's shoes, right? It's just to get them thinking. You're not going to resolve everything right then certainly not the Arab Israeli issue and spiritual issues as well. These take a long time. So kind of a word of hope. Many people in circumstances like this who hold false views about, especially about spiritual things or leftist views about the nature of reality and culture and politics end up abandoning those things when they grow up. Now, I know that sounds to some people so radically condescending, but I'm just making an observation. I think a sound. Lots of people do not have an adult understanding of the nature of the world and how the world works. And once they enter into life in a way that they have to really deal with reality, their values end up changing. Now, they don't always, obviously, but when people start seeing the consequences of their own thinking, how it applies to real life, they will sometimes change those thoughts because they've gotten wiser. I didn't become a Christian until I was 23. I believed all kinds of nonsense prior to that. Then the Lord got a hold of me and I didn't change all my views before I became a Christian. I did change my view about Jesus. And that was the entree, the entry point, that was the access point to an entirely new life. I became a new creature reborn. And as a result of that, my own thinking began to change. Because now I was trying to think about the nature of the world as God saw it, not just as I saw it or culture saw it, or my cultural group saw it. And because of that, my mind became renewed and I began to see the world differently, more accurately, and my values changed. So there's hope. Sometimes these issues resolve themselves as people grow up, especially if there hasn't been a lot of bruising of the fruit that went on before it. So you always want to be careful about how you engage. This is not easy to do, especially with people that you love. Family members, parents, spouses, children, grandchildren. It's a lot harder. But if the claim is, well, you don't know what you're talking about, if what you bring to the table is a clarification from a somewhat disinterested source, well, what is the definition of genocide? I mean, the political structures like United nations or whatever, these have definitions for this because they have to deal with it when it happens, and they have to use their words precisely. And the International Council of Human Rights or whatever, or Geneva Convention go there, what is their definition of genocide? And then you'll have something to work with that you can't be accused of twisting and distorting for your purposes. But I will say this is not an easy situation, Teresa. It's a hard situation because so much is at stake with people, and this is why we need to be careful as we move forward. And I'll admit quite frankly that I haven't always been that careful in circumstances like this as I've tried to move forward on spiritual things. So we're in a process, but I hope that helps a little bit. Now we have a question from Shane in Temecula, and it has to do with supernatural intervention in our lives. So let's hear what you have to say. Shane.
- [35:34]
D
Hey, Greg.
- [35:35]
A
Hey.
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D
I've been a longtime listener for many years, and I'm hard pressed to find anything I disagree with you on. So I have a question on your comments regarding the protection of Trump during the assassination attempt. So you stated that we cannot presume that God is doing something which I agree with until you see it for yourself, because the evidence seems overwhelming. So my question is way bigger than Trump because it seems you're asking us to dismiss any supernatural intervention or miracle because we don't have absolute proof, which we don't. But if millions of people are praying for his protection because he is so vilified and saw this coming, then the slightest movement of Trump's head potentially changes the direction of an entire nation. What are we rational beings to conclude? If I pray for my wife's grim cancer diagnosis and she is, against all odds, healed, or I pray for God to save my best friend's marriage who are on the brink of divorce and now they're happily reconciled, or even Daniel prays to God in the lion's den and he comes out unscathed, we're supposed to just dismiss it so we don't look like silly Christians? How are we to ever get to give glory to God for his miracles? Even when you see what sure looks to be them, even when the faithful are praying all around the world? Didn't George Washington have bullets in his coat and horses shot out for under, under him. And our proper response should just be, well, what a nice happenstance. Thanks, Greg. I do love you and I think you're the best.
- [37:12]
A
Thank you, Shane. I appreciate that. And you know, I'm not going to do it now. It's too long ago that I made these comments, but I have gotten some pushback on this from different people, even some people who wrote into me. And I feel I have been misunderstood to some degree, but I don't think it's anybody else's fault than my own. I think maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. And even soon after the broadcast and I made the comments, I was getting some pushback from some people and I thought to myself, well, that isn't what I. Well, I guess what I thought to myself is that wasn't what I meant, but it might have been what I said, even though it might not have been what I meant. Okay, so let me go back over and clarify my own thinking about that, regardless of how I happened to communicate it at the time. All right. What I was most concerned about wasn't the claim that God supernaturally protected this man's life, because I think this was obvious that God's hand was involved in that, just like God's hand was involved in all kinds of different things like you just mentioned, Shane, especially in response to prayer that seem to eventuate that wouldn't have eventuated just by happenstance. And it's not even reasonable under the circumstances to say, boy, was he lucky kind of thing. Though an atheist would say that. We're not atheists. Okay. My bigger concern at the time was not God's involvement to save Donald Trump, then protect him from that bullet that just whizzed by and nicked his ear. I mean, he just came millimeters away from death. My concern was the conclusions that for the future or about the future that Christians were making regarding that. And that was the sense in which I thought their predictions were silly. Okay, so through some intervention by God, some incredible close scrape that Donald Trump avoided death by, what do we conclude beyond the hand of God in that moment, we can't conclude anything about God's purposes in the future until the future unfolds. And there are a lot of people who are saying this is God's man for the hour. We know he's God's man for the hour because God saved him for the hour, and so therefore he's going to be president, etc. Etc. And we ought to promote for him because this is God's man for the hour. Well, see, that's the part that I think was unjustified. We don't know God's purposes in this event. All right? There's lots of things that happen that God sovereignly allows to happen that he does have his own purposes for, but he is not usually telling us what those purposes are, and we divine those purposes. In hindsight, now we have a situation where Donald Trump was elected president and is acting very aggressively to do the kinds of things that many people think are the things that need to be done to restore law and order and appropriate freedom in this world. Okay. Then people might say, there it is. My point is you can't presume that just based on the person who dodged the bullet, you can't presume that. And that was the concern that I had, okay, that people were saying, see, this is the guy that God has chosen. That's what I thought was silly. That's all. So people might have a problem with that. Okay, whatever. I'm just saying we can't look at any set of circumstances right now and presume what God is doing in the future regarding those circumstances. That's my point. Oh, okay. Yeah. Amy. Amy made a good point. This particular show is going to be airing months from now, which is the end of mid December. It's not even Christmas yet. So who knows what's going to happen in the future? Who knows? And that's kind of what I'm saying. Anyway, that's my point. Some people have drawn conclusions based on what we've seen so far. Fine, okay. Maybe it'll go that way, maybe not. We don't know. So the point is we don't look at some kind of intervention and presume something about the future. You know, I'll just give you an exact. An example of this kind of thing in a spiritual situation. Okay. I have a friend who has founded a magnificent missions enterprise in India. Unbelievable. What God is doing through this organization is called EMBART E M P A R T. I think they planted over 30,000 churches in the last 30 years. Unbelievable. But in his autobiography titled Insanity or something like that, he talks about this village where there were Christians and they were being persecuted. And then this religious leader who was part of the persecution of the Christians, I don't know if it was Muslim or Hindu or whatever, his wife became sick and he told the Christian pastor there, pray for my wife, and if she doesn't get healthy, she doesn't recover in the week, we're going to kill you. Something to that effect. Well, it turned out they prayed and prayed and prayed and she was healed and she and her husband became Christians. And then sometime later she was martyred. So it might be easy to say, oh, God's hand was in this. It was. He healed her. He did. And that means there are great things that God is going to do for this woman or through this woman in the future, given this miraculous healing. And the answer is no. God had other plans. He took her home. We just don't know. We just don't know. But we can thank God for what he does in the moment without presuming on God for the future, other than just presuming that God knows best and that he will do best according to his perfect plan. Alright, time for another break and then we'll take more calls when I return on Stand to Reason.
- [44:27]
C
As a high school teacher, I always had a red pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front of my students teaching a lesson, you could find me assessing assignments, grading essays, and evaluating exams. The red pen played a crucial role in the educational development of my students. With it, I questioned their assumptions, exposed their errors, and challenged them to think critically. You see, a good teacher doesn't merely tell his students that they're wrong. A good teacher shows his students why they're wrong so they don't make the same mistakes twice. He corrects because he cares. Last year I was scrolling through social media and frankly I was discouraged at all the bad thinking that undergirded much of what I was reading. Then it hit me. What if someone applied the red pen to this flawed thinking? And Red pen logic with Mr. B was born. In the last few months, Red Pen Logic has grown in popularity through our engaging and shareable educational graphics and videos. We are helping people, especially young people, assess bad thinking by using good thinking and we have a a lot of fun in the process. So here's your homework assignment like the Red Pen Logic Facebook page so you don't miss our next graphic and subscribe at the red Pen Logic YouTube channel so you don't miss a single video. Class dismissed. Would you like a stand to Reason speaker to speak at your church or event? Greg Allen, Tim John and I, Robby Lashua are available both in person and online. Just email bookingstr.org to schedule us. Today we can address a wide array of topics from bioethics, gender issues and science to theology, philosophy, and how to respond to other worldviews, all from a biblical perspective. Whether it's a Sunday sermon, Zoom conference, or YouTube Live event. Our skilled and engaging speakers can be there either physically or virtually, with the goal of equipping Christians to effectively influence the culture for Christ. To read our bios and learn more about the topics we cover, visit str.org then email bookingstr.org to schedule. Greg, Alan, Tim, John, or me, Robbie.
- [46:48]
A
Okay, final segment of the show here. Let's see who's in the queue. I think that would be okay. Vicki. Let's take Vicki next and I want to get Michael right after, so. And that'll close things out. Vicki, what's on your mind?
- [47:08]
E
Hi Greg. Thanks for your help. This is Vicki. I'm My issue is choosing a church. I live in a sort of wasteland that has probably more than half liberal churches. And the problem though is even the traditional churches, they're very problematic from I have been to four churches during the past, say, 10 years and I don't think I'm being nitpicky. I don't think I'm in danger of doing what CS Lewis warned about in one of his books of church shopping and that sort of thing. There are legitimate issues. For example, in my current church, just for instance, my pastor seems to have way too much power. There is no hierarchy of elders and so forth. I asked, for example, when the church does communion and the pastor's answer was as the Spirit moves us, no regular schedule. Well, as the Spirit moves who? Nobody has taken a survey of the members, so it seems to be at the pastor's whim. Additionally, there's no public accounting for where the tides go. Now I could ask, but it. I feel embarrassed to be put in this position and I think he will be offended. So this is just an example, a couple of examples of issues that I've encountered at churches. And I just it seems impossible to find a Bible believing traditional church that doesn't have all these weird issues. I mean, I don't know whether to stop going all together and just watch on tv. But anyway, whatever advice you can give me, it's appreciated.
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Well, this is disheartening, Vicki, to hear this. It seems like, unless, I mean, it seems like one should be able to find something that roughly fits the bill. I have never been in a church myself that I've been totally satisfied with, including what I'm in now. And I think that my pastor does a great job. So there are differences of opinion we have, but they're not substantial. They're not the kinds of things like just mentioned here. Where's the Lord's table? When do we have that when do we have. And by the way, to say when the Spirit leads or moves? To me, that is just a kind of roughshod justification for self will. In other words, it's whenever I want to do it. And I'm just going to call that the Spirit moving because it does seem in the text that this should be something we do on a fairly regular basis to remember the Lord's death until he comes. Yet if they're in a local church and the Lord's table is not being shared on a regular basis, at least once a month, that's the standard for churches that don't do it. Every single service is at least once a month. So if it's not even done that much, then one wonders, well, why isn't the Spirit leading anybody, including the leadership, to have communion? That's suspicious. And also the lack of financial accountability. So what a frustrating circumstance to be in a larger community. You can't find anybody, any group that fits the bill. And I know you're not looking for a perfect church. I mean, I don't get that sense. But at least you want a church whose peccadillos are modest and you can live with them. I guess my advice would be do the best that you can that is aware of all the liabilities. You do the best that you're able to do to find a local community of Christians with whom you can have fellowship, a place where you can serve, be useful in that local body, and where you can be fed spiritually. You can have churches that don't have that pastors with not a lot of accountability and you don't know where the money's going and stuff like that, but you can still be fed from them. If you're not being fed at your local church, it might be a good idea to find another place to be fed or another way to be fed. You can go online, but then you're not getting church, you're just getting a teacher online. You're not getting any sense of community. So that better than nothing. But it isn't what God has in mind for something that resembles community. By the way, going to church on a weekly basis is a way of fulfilling a biblical directive. Do not eschew basically the assembling of ourselves together, as is the habit of son, but encourage one another all the more as the day draws near. That's in Hebrews 10. And then we have the example, that's a command. And then we have the example of Christians meeting together at the beginning of the week. And you know, on Sundays and doing their worship and stuff like that. So we have these biblical not only directives, but also these examples that this is the way Christians comported themselves. However, it doesn't mean that the way we get our spiritual sustenance and our spiritual community is that we are always meeting together on Sunday. You know, here is the church. This is the steeple, open the doors, you see all the people kind of thing. There are different ways to accomplish that need of assembling together with other Christians. That isn't necessarily a church, a formalized church. It might be that in your community there's a Bible study fellowship or there's some other kind of solid biblical meeting going on during the week that you can participate in, or a group of genuine Christian friends that you can meet together with and have fellowship with. And that will be kind of a substitute, I hate to say it this way, a substitute church or a surrogate church. Actually, what that would really amount to is being your church, your de facto church, the church, that of people, the gathering, the ecclesia, Those who come, you know, gather together to worship and to praise and to encourage one another and serve one another. You know, that's what the church is meant to be. So if it turns out you can't find a formalized expression of, of Christianity in a local church, there may be other ways you can get the needs met. If there's nothing that even comes close to meeting those needs. Now, like I said at the beginning, if it doesn't come close or as close as you like, maybe you just find, do the best. You can choose the best of the bunch. You, you eat the meat and throw away the bones. And sometimes there's a lot more bones than there is meat, but there's bound to be a little meat in there. If you're concerned about finances, you might want to be careful about giving. Now, Scripture teaches us to give to genuine need and also to be generous to those who we learn from. Let him, him who is taught, share all good things with him who teaches. That's Galatians 6, it seems to me. But the point there is that we give where we're being fed. And if we're being fed in a local church, then that's where we should be giving. If we're being fed through, really our functional feeding is coming through a website or a online preacher or a organization like Stand to Reason, for example, then it's totally appropriate to give to that organization, okay? And you are being paid for your. You're paying for your meal, I guess is the simple way of thinking about it, and that's what you do. Now, if you're not sure the money is actually being handled well or legitimately, this is where you might want to say, well, maybe not so fast, but I suspect the local church that you're part of is doing some good things. And even if the pastor is not the most noble individual or whatever, I don't know, but maybe he's not as transparent or as open to correction or whatever as you like, it still may be that he's doing, making a useful contribution and therefore it's legitimate for you to provide an offering for that church. But it's a tough situation, and I wish I had something better to tell you. If you're not getting good teaching there, but you are getting fellowship with good Christians, well, take advantage of that and then find your good teaching somewhere else so that you are being fed and that's the most important thing. All right. All right, Vicki, thank you for your question and thank the rest of you for being part of the show. Greg Koukl here for Stand a Reason. Give them heaven. All right, friends, bye bye now. Sam.