What Does It Mean to Be Made in God’s Image?

Summary

Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast

Episode: What Does It Mean to Be Made in God’s Image?
Host: Greg Koukl
Guests/Co-hosts: Amy (co-host/producer), Callers: Bryler, Chad, Tim, Susan, Jesse
Date: October 31, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on one of theology’s cornerstone questions: What does it mean to be made in the image of God? Host Greg Koukl answers live listener questions, focusing on how the “image of God” (imago Dei) doctrine anchors human purpose, dignity, and morality, avoiding common misunderstandings. The episode also touches on topics such as spiritual calling, discipling children, Jesus’ knowledge on Earth, and proper biblical interpretation, particularly Jeremiah 29:11.

---

Main Segments & Key Discussion Points

1. What Does It Mean to Be Made in God’s Image?

[04:17–14:04]

Caller: Bryler's Question

• Question: What does it mean to be made in the image of God? How do capacities like reason or creativity play a part, especially in people who may have less of those capacities?
• Greg’s Framework:
  • The Bible declares humans are made in God's image (Genesis 1, 9:6).
  • This fact makes humans unique and of intrinsic (not extrinsic) value.
  • Quote:

    "It's not extrinsic, it's intrinsic. In other words, it's built in. And in virtue of our mere existence, we are in God's image." (Greg, [06:49])

  • Human value is grounded in our status as image bearers, not in our abilities or capacities.
  • The image of God is not something added; it’s part of what we are by nature.
  • Practical Outworking:
    • This intrinsic value is why unjustly taking a human life is so grave (referencing Genesis 9:6).
    • Our obligations to one another as humans flow from this image-bearing status.

Exploring the Outworkings of the Image

• Characteristics (not the substance) of the image of God:

  • Moral nature (ability to discern good/evil)
    • Animals don’t share this capacity.
  • Creativity
    • Humans create in a way animals do not.
  • Rationality (second-order thinking, self-reflection)
    • Quote:

      "Animals can think, but they don't have thoughts about their thoughts. They're not self-reflective." (Amy, [12:36])

  • These qualities are expressions or manifestations—not the source—of our image-bearing.

• Warning against reducing image of God to abilities:

  • If intrinsic value is linked to capacities, then those without (e.g., infants, elderly, cognitively disabled) would lose value—a view Greg opposes.

Purpose & the Image of God

• Caller’s Reflection: Is human purpose (e.g., glorifying God) bound to imaging God through action?
  • Greg: Image-bearing and purpose are distinct. God makes us in His image for a reason—relationship with Him, among others—but our ultimate meaning and value stem from being His image bearers, regardless of manifesting certain qualities.
  • Illustrative Quote:

    "He has purposed certain ends for us and one of those ends is to be in friendship with Him. The fact that we are made in His image and share these qualities mean that we can share a friendship with Him... that we aren't going to be able to share with someone not like us or Him." (Greg, [14:59])

Fulfillment & Happiness

• Greg’s Reflection: Fulfillment comes from living according to our created nature, which is connected to (but not identical with) happiness or satisfaction—even for animals, in their instinctual way.
  • Humans, being rational and moral, experience the deepest fulfillment when pursuing their God-given purposes, ultimately relationship with God.

---

2. Jesus’ Knowledge & Human Limitations

[20:05–28:05]
Caller: Chad

• Topic: Did Jesus, during his earthly ministry, know things like Darwinian evolution? How does "kenosis" (Philippians 2:7) relate to Christ’s knowledge?

• Greg’s Response:

  • Jesus, in his humanity, was not omniscient; he self-limited his divine privileges (kenosis) but did not cease to be divine.
    • “It is clear that in Jesus, human nature, he was not omniscient. He declared it as such. Matthew 24: 'No one knows the day or the hour... not even the Son of Man, but only the Father in heaven.'" ([21:10])
  • Jesus knew what was needed for his mission; not all facts about the world.
  • In his earthly life, he did not know contemporary facts irrelevant to his mission (e.g., specifics of evolution).
  • Mystery remains—he exhibited supernatural knowledge at times, but his knowledge was (self-)limited compared to his divine omniscience.

• Illustrative Metaphor for Students:

  • The king who lays aside his royal privileges to walk among his people—still king, but not exercising those privileges for a time.

---

3. Discipling Your Kids in the Faith

[28:32–39:11]
Caller: Tim

• Question: How can I best disciple my children?
• Host and Amy’s Advice:

  • Leading by Example:

    • Most powerful form of influence; kids imitate parents’ lives.
    • “If the parents are living the consistent Christian life, then the children are going to be doing the same.” (Amy, [30:21])

  • Building Consistent Devotional Practices:

    • Establish family spiritual routines (devotions, discussions) early and consistently—ideally from an age before children can remember life without these practices.
    • Use the dinner table as a unifying time (no screens!) for spiritual conversation.
    • Even short, nightly (5–10min) devotions are formative.

  • Age-Appropriate Resources:

    • Utilize resources like Natasha Crane’s “Keeping Your Kids on God’s Side”—plug-and-play apologetic lessons tailored for families.

  • Life Together as Discipleship:

    • Jesus’ discipleship model included lots of shared time—simply being together ("He was with them.").
    • Opportunities for spiritual learning happen naturally when sharing life.
    • Let children see authentic faith in mundane moments (prayer, gratitude, struggles).

  • Apologetics for Children:

    • Introduce apologetics in developmentally suitable ways.
    • Consider older kids attending apologetic or worldview events/camps for deeper exposure.

---

4. Proper Interpretation of Jeremiah 29:11

[40:29–49:22]
Caller: Susan

• Issue: Can we claim Jeremiah 29:11 as a personal promise for Christians? Some (including John Piper) say yes, but Susan and Greg are skeptical.

• Greg’s Explanation:

  • Context matters: Jeremiah 29:11 was given as a specific promise to Israel, not a universal promise to all believers at all times.
  • The chapter includes both promises of prosperity and promises of calamity—claiming verse 11 without the surrounding context results in interpretive inconsistency.
    • “If it applies to verse 11, why doesn't it apply to verse 14? ... Try to stitch [the calamity prophecy] on a pillow.” (Greg, [46:20])
  • The New Testament contains explicit promises of suffering for believers, not prosperity (John 16:33).
  • Greg criticizes the practice of lifting verses as universal promises without regard for biblical context:
    • “If they use the word of God in a way that God did not purpose it to be used, it's no longer God's word.” (Greg, [48:54])

• Encouragement:

  • Stand firm in teaching context, even in the face of sentimental attachment to certain verses.

---

5. Called to Ministry—or Just Gifted and Passionate?

[49:33–57:18]
Caller: Jesse

• Question: How can you know if you’re truly “called” to ministry, especially apologetics, versus just having a strong interest?
• Greg’s Response & Corrective:
  • Evangelical tradition often speaks of a mystical “call to ministry,” but this is not clearly taught in Scripture.
    • “Where in Scripture is feeling a call a requirement to do ministry? ... Some described it in very subjective terms.” (Greg/Amy, [51:44])
  • In the New Testament, “calling” typically refers to salvation, not ministry assignment (except Paul’s unique case).
  • Central Principle:
    • God distributes ministry through gifting, not through a mystical calling (see Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4, 1 Peter 4).
    • If you have the gifts, passion, and opportunities—and your contribution bears fruit—then ministry is appropriate.
    • “You do not need to have any kind of supernatural sense that this is what God wants you to do. It's better to ask the question of what can I do? What are my capabilities? What bears fruit? And also what do I want to do?” (Greg, [56:20])
  • Relief for Listeners:
    • The “call to ministry” can be a heavy, unnecessary burden; focus on spiritual gifts, capacity, and desire.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Image of God’s Foundation:

  “It is that thing that gives us the value we have above other things. So much so that if you take a human life, the image bearer's life, then you sacrifice your own life as an image bearer.”
  — Greg Koukl ([07:55])

• On the mistake of linking image to capacities:

  “If I do it that way, then the minute we remove some of these capacities, then we are removing on that view what makes humans valuable. And that's exactly what they do to unborn children. ... Their value is not intrinsic, it's extrinsic, it's instrumental. And that's what I want to avoid in talking about this issue.”
  — Greg Koukl ([13:31])

• On Jesus’ Limited Knowledge:

  “Jesus, in his kenosis, in his emptying... emptied himself of divine prerogatives, privileges. He did not empty himself of his divinity. ... In Jesus’ human nature this one person has a limitation of knowledge. Well, that's the mystery. And we just know it's true…”
  — Greg Koukl ([21:10])

• On Discipleship by Presence:

  “The most important elements [of Jesus’ discipleship] was that he was with them. ... It wasn't that [my mentor] was always teaching me something. It's that we were together. And there was so much I got... that I kind of absorbed being with him.”
  — Greg Koukl ([36:34])

• On Misuse of Jeremiah 29:11:

  “We are promised calamity, not welfare, in this world, you have tribulation. So we have explicit New Testament promises that go against this particular promise [in Jeremiah].”
  — Greg Koukl ([45:41])

• On Calling vs. Gifting for Ministry:

  “The Scripture does not teach that God distributes ministry through calling. ... He distributes ministry through gifting.”
  — Amy ([54:28])

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 04:17 – Caller Bryler asks about being made in God’s image
• 06:49 – The image of God is intrinsic, not based on abilities
• 10:54–12:35 – Distinction between human and animal capacities (morality, creativity, rationality)
• 14:59 – Distinctness of purpose and the image of God
• 20:05–28:05 – Discussion with Chad on Jesus’ knowledge and incarnation (kenosis)
• 28:32–39:11 – Tim asks about discipling children
• 30:21 – Study confirming parental faithfulness as key to children’s faith
• 36:34 – Discipleship through “being with” your children
• 40:29 – Susan’s question on Jeremiah 29:11 and biblical context
• 45:41 – Explicit New Testament suffering vs. Old Testament promise
• 46:20 – The absurdity of claiming every OT promise for Christians
• 49:33 – Jesse asks about spiritual “calling” vs. gifting in ministry
• 54:28–56:20 – Core answer: ministry is about gifting and fruitfulness, not mystical calling

---

Tone & Style

Greg maintains a warm, conversational, and intellectually rigorous tone, balancing deep theological insight with practical, accessible advice. The conversations are marked by careful, inductive biblical reasoning, a spirit of encouragement, and a willingness to challenge common evangelical assumptions for the sake of clarity and faithfulness to Scripture.

---

Summary Takeaway

Being made in the image of God is an intrinsic status that grounds human value, moral obligation, and potential for purpose, but is not dependent on specific abilities or capacities. Human worth does not rise or fall with capability, and biblical interpretation—and ministry calling—must be rooted in context and spiritual gifts, not in mystical subjectivity or proof-texting.

Transcript

[Greg Koukl]

Welcome to Stand to Reason.

[Amy]

Friends.

[Greg Koukl]

Greg Koukl here.

[Amy]

The show is called STR Standard Reason because that's the name of the organization that sponsors it. And glad you've joined us. I just want to remind you that I'm thinking this is the broadcast that goes out on Friday. So one week from today, if you're listening to this podcast when it's being released, one week from today is the Minneapolis event. I'm thrilled to be a part of these realities. And this year has been something else. I mentioned it on the last show. The Atlanta event was the first time we were in Atlanta proper and we filled the stadium, I should say the church. There were empty seats. It wasn't completely sold out, but we did great for a first timer in that city. And we'll be coming back to that same location in the next year. And when we were in Seattle this weekend, we actually sold that out four weeks before the event itself. And right now, with Minneapolis looming the following week here, November 7th and 8th, we at this point now, this is early in the week by my reckoning, 3800, which is usually our total 10 days from now. And the chances are pretty good we're going to fill this out and sell everything out. If you've been thinking about going to a reality, even if you're a long way off, you need a fly in or something, please strike the iron while.

[Greg Koukl]

It'S still a bit warm because those.

[Amy]

Seats are going to be gone shortly. I have every reason to expect.

[Greg Koukl]

We're just shy about 200 more, less than 10%.

[Amy]

And that's going to. Actually, that's only 5% of what we have already.

[Greg Koukl]

So I think just like in Seattle, we're going to sell this out.

[Amy]

Just saying I'm thrilled that that's the case. I hope you guys can make it.

[Greg Koukl]

On November 7th and 8th. Minneapolis, the largest church in the state.

[Amy]

Grace Church, Eden Prairie.

[Greg Koukl]

The website is realityapologetics.com realityapologetics.com and that's.

[Amy]

Where you can go to.

[Greg Koukl]

To sign up, see what it's all about. All right, so let's, let's go to. Is it Bryler at number three?

[Amy]

Amy, is that. We're going number three. Yeah.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay. Yes. Bryler, welcome to the show. And thank you for walking, for waiting. I almost said watching. You're not watching, you're waiting. I'm watching.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Bryler]

Yeah. Well, I just want to say it's so cool to talk to you because I've listened to almost every show for the past, like four Years.

[Amy]

No kidding. Well, thank you.

[Greg Koukl]

I'm. I'm flattered. Now, where's Cookville? I was just in Tennessee on Wednesday.

[Amy]

I was down.

[Greg Koukl]

North of Nashville, and is it Bensonville or Benderville or something like that? And then I was south of that other city. It's in the south that everybody moves to south of Nashville. What is that? What is that big city?

[Jesse]

I don't know.

[Greg Koukl]

Murphysboro?

[Bryler]

I'm not sure.

[Greg Koukl]

No, I don't know. Anyway, I was just there north and.

[Amy]

South of Nashville on Wednesday.

[Bryler]

So I'm between Nashville and Knoxville.

[Greg Koukl]

And Knoxville. Oh, okay. Gotcha.

[Amy]

So you're further north.

[Greg Koukl]

Oh, you're further south. Yeah, that's right.

[Amy]

Knoxville.

[Greg Koukl]

Wait a minute. No, Knoxville is east of you. Okay, got it. Well, the heck with the history, the geography lesson. Let's get on here. I'm failing at every point here, so.

[Bryler]

All right. My question is, what does it mean to be made in the image of God?

[Amy]

All right. Have you done some thinking about this already, or are you impressed on that question?

[Bryler]

Well, the way that I've heard it explained to me, it's always been based on our abilities, like our ability to reason and to create. And by doing that, we exhibit our imageness, or we image God, I suppose.

[Greg Koukl]

Mm.

[Bryler]

But the problem is, wouldn't that kind of imply that if we didn't have those capabilities, which some people may have less of, the ability to reason or to create, then would it not follow that we would have less of being made in the image of God?

[Amy]

Sure, sure. Oh, that's. That's really an important distinction there you're making. All right, so here's. Here's the way I go about this. Different people have made different kinds of lists, and I think we have to be careful with them. The way I approach this is. First of all, the scripture declares that we are in the image of God. It says that in chapter one of Genesis. I think it says it in chapter. No, in chapter one, a couple of different times. But then in chapter nine of Genesis, verse eight, I believe. No, verse six, after the flood, a capital punishment is instated. And it says there that if man sheds man's blood by man, his blood shall be shed. For in the image of God, God created man. So here's what we learn from that. Regarding the image of God, human beings are special. They're absolutely unique. They're the only creature we are told not to take their life illicitly. Now, that verse itself is a verse that justifies capital punishment. So there are some reasons we might take a Human life, but they're very spare. It's got to be just right to do that. Because human beings are unique and special. Nothing else in scripture is characterized as having been made in the image of God.

[Greg Koukl]

So the first thing we learn is.

[Amy]

That we are in the image of God, and that makes us unique. Secondly, that image of God is intrinsic.

[Greg Koukl]

It's not extrinsic, it's intrinsic.

[Amy]

In other words, it's built in. And in virtue of our mere existence, we are in God's image. So, for example, you and I are both human beings.

[Greg Koukl]

What quality can we take away from a human being? And he'd cease being a human being. I'm sorry, what quality can we take away?

[Amy]

That is the way I wanted to say it.

[Greg Koukl]

Can we take the quality of being.

[Amy]

Human away from a human being and.

[Greg Koukl]

Still have a human being?

[Bryler]

No.

[Amy]

No, because being a human is what we are.

[Greg Koukl]

It's not something that's added like some.

[Amy]

Other property, like, you know, the color.

[Greg Koukl]

Of our hair, the size of our.

[Amy]

Body, things that we do, all these other things.

[Greg Koukl]

So this thing is built in, and.

[Amy]

It is that thing that.

[Greg Koukl]

That gives us the value we have above other things. So much so that if you take a human life, the image bearer's life.

[Amy]

Then you sacrifice your own life as an image bearer.

[Greg Koukl]

So we learn that all from Genesis 1, the fact that we're made in the image of God. And there might be ambiguity about what that means, but we go to Genesis 9, 6, we learn that that is infused in us. That's also implicit in the Genesis 1 passage. And it's the thing that gives us ultimate value. And it also is the grounding of our obligations morally to each other. So we have moral obligations to each other that are not sustained with any other living thing. Not the same way. Okay? And so that takes us a step further. Now, so far, we don't have any content to this. We don't know exactly what that looks like. We don't know what that entails, but we know that it's really important. Okay? So hold on a second.

[Amy]

I've got to fix something here.

[Greg Koukl]

My connection here.

[Amy]

There it goes.

[Greg Koukl]

I'm back. I got a loose wire here and fixed it. Okay. I think so. Notice. I'm just trying to figure out what the image of God is essentially and how it relates to our lives. I haven't given any qualities to it. Now we have to ask, okay, what the heck? What are the characteristics of the image of God in man? Now, notice if I start naming characteristics, things that are qualities of the image, I can't say, well, if you don't have that quality, you're not in the image. Because we've already established that the image is built in and not dependent on anything else. So I could say, well, what's the qualities that makes a human a human? The given is that they're human. Now we can try to look inductively at some of the qualities that are unique to human beings that maybe make them human, but it is not or that are characteristic. That's better characteristic of them being human. But it isn't what makes them human. It's our natures that makes us human. And in the same way, God creating us in his image makes us in his image. And then there's certain outworkings of that. And I think a safe way to go about this is to look at the qualities that are characteristic of God and then ask, what are the qualities characteristic of God that we seem to manifest as well, since we're made in his image? There are going to be parallels between us and God. What are they now? It might be moral nature. God has a moral nature. We have a moral nature. Animals don't seem to have a moral nature. We can be good or bad. We can show vice or virtue.

[Amy]

Animals can't do that. So it's safe now to put this to the list. Now, keep in mind, if we put.

[Greg Koukl]

Moral nature as a characteristic.

[Amy]

Of being in the image of God, if a child or a newborn is not able to reason morally, we won't say they're not made the image of God. We will just say they are in the image of God. Image of God possesses a moral capacity, but it may be that capacity is not manifest yet for other reasons like mental brain development, neurological development, or something like that. Okay, so there are different factors that may be involved with the expression of it, but it isn't what makes us in the image of God. It's rather a capacity or an expression of the image of God. So now you mentioned creativity. I think that's fair. God is creative and we're creative. Other animals aren't creative. They make stuff like, wow, look at this spider's web. I used to collect garden spiders when I was a kid. They make big, beautiful webs and they're big, beautiful spiders, but they're not being creative. Their Creator created an instinct in them by which they instinctively make these webs. It's not because they're creative. It's because they have this capability built in. So I think that the ability to be creative is another One and there's maybe a rational capability that we have, ability to think in a second order level.

[Greg Koukl]

Animals can think, but they don't have.

[Amy]

Thoughts about their thoughts. They're not self reflective. It doesn't seem. And this shows a higher level of awareness that we have.

[Greg Koukl]

So you could just keep going down.

[Amy]

And thinking about what may fit there. And you could look in different theologies under biblical anthropology, which is doctrine of man, and find places where they talk about the image of God and man.

[Greg Koukl]

And maybe some of the qualities they.

[Amy]

Think are characteristic of it. The important thing that I'm doing, notice I'm working inductively, that is I'm looking at man made in the image of God and then ask what has that human being in the image of God do? That's like God and that's where I'm getting my list.

[Greg Koukl]

But I'm not using the list to determine if he's made in his image.

[Bryler]

Okay, would you say that that's the.

[Amy]

Tail wagging the dog? Just one other thought. If I do it that way, then the minute we remove some of these capacities, then we are removing on that view what makes humans valuable. And that's exactly what they do to unborn children. They also do it to old people who lose their capacities to do things. So therefore they're no longer valuable. Their value is not intrinsic, it's extrinsic, it's instrumental. And that's what I want to avoid.

[Greg Koukl]

In talking about this issue.

[Bryler]

That's actually a really helpful way of looking at it. Would you say that one unifying thing that is true for all human beings, that we were created for a certain purpose? Ultimately that's to glorify God. And by using these characteristics like creativity and reason, by practicing those, we are like imaging God actively. So we're fulfilling our purpose. Is that kind of.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah, I would. This is an interesting thought I hadn't thought about before. So I'm just kind of working through.

[Amy]

It a little bit now.

[Greg Koukl]

I would keep purpose and you probably are doing this, but just for the sake of clarity, keep purpose different from the image of God. We are made in the image of.

[Amy]

God and then God made us like.

[Greg Koukl]

That for a reason. And that the image of God and man is what gives us our ultimate meaning value. That doesn't change now from the meaning of God making us this way. He has purposed certain ends for us and one of those ends is to be in friendship with Him. The fact that we are made in his image and share these qualities mean that we can share A friendship with him that we aren't going to be able to share with someone not like us or him. So you and I could have a friendship. All right. But the question is, that's going to have a different quality than a friendship we might have with. You know, I got three cats. I'm not really friends with my cats, but people have dogs. Okay, so. But because we're so different, we sometimes talk about, oh, yeah, my best friend is my dog kind of thing. But that's a different quality of thing, different kind of thing than a friendship with another person who shares our nature. Now, we don't share God's nature, really.

[Amy]

I mean, God's. We share something about God that gives us a kinship with him. And then all of these other things allows us to. What's the right word? Maybe traffic in the relationship that we have with God. Remember that guy, that movie about the runner, and he said, when I run, I feel God's pleasure? Do you remember that? Oh, Chariots of Fire. The movie Chariots of Fire.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And so there are things that we do that are unique to us, that maybe expressions of the image of God. And when we do them richly, we actually feel closer to God. And I think that may be what you're getting at there.

[Bryler]

One last. Just thinking out loud, if I may. I was kind of thinking that the way that the purpose could be tied in with the image of God and playing in the Genesis 9 Life for life thing is whenever I take someone else's life, I'm not only not fulfilling my purpose, but I'm not helping the other person to fulfill.

[Amy]

Right. That's a good point. Yeah. You're terminating their purpose, at least the active purpose in this life. And. Yeah, that's a good observation. I mean, we are to live in a way that fulfills our nature. God made us a certain way. This is a totally different topic, and I'll have to end on this one because I had a bunch more callers that jumped on board. But the. I had. I wrote this piece a long time ago when I was doing commercial radio for KBRT here in Southern California. And I use it as a commentary, but my conviction actually came up. I'm not sure if it came up in the discussion at the Diary of a CEO podcast I did a couple months ago.

[Bryler]

Oh, yeah, I watched that.

[Amy]

Okay. Well, I'm not sure if this made it in the final analysis, but what I would say, I think animals are happy, and I think they're happy because they're fulfilling in an instinctive way. Their purpose before God. And happiness, fulfillment comes from fulfilling the nature that we've been given by God to fulfill. We fulfill that by making choices. Animals don't make those kinds of choices. They are driven by their instincts. And so that's why I think, characteristically, animals are happy because they're living out their natures in a consistent fashion. Human beings are made for certain purposes, and we should pursue those purposes, and then we will experience the satisfaction of so doing. And you can't get that deep, rich satisfaction, in my view, without God, who is the author of all these things. And we were ultimately made for him. And I did mention that in that discussion.

[Greg Koukl]

So whether other people were listening or made a difference, that's a different matter. But okay, Bryler.

[Bryler]

All right. Thank you.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah. It's great talking to you. I appreciate the call. Let's go to Jed in Virginia.

[Amy]

I'm going on the flashy green. Is that right, Amy? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay. So, Jed in Virginia, welcome to the show.

[Chad]

Hey, Greg, Hope things on the left coast are well. It's Chad.

[Greg Koukl]

C H, A D. Oh, it's Chad.

[Chad]

You were so very close.

[Amy]

Okay, good. Chad.

[Greg Koukl]

Got it.

[Amy]

I thought you like Chad, short for Jedi Knight, but now you're Chad.

[Greg Koukl]

Got it.

[Chad]

It'd be more like Jed Clampett, because I am from the hills of Appalachia originally.

[Greg Koukl]

So that's all right. It's all on Amy. It was her bad.

[Chad]

Amy's the best.

[Greg Koukl]

I love. They can always blame someone else.

[Amy]

Yeah, right.

[Chad]

So my question, good sir. I was beginning my apologetics journey a couple years ago and was listening to a podcast one time where I do William Lane Craig was on it, and Frank Turek, they were on a panel.

[Greg Koukl]

And Bill Craig and who else?

[Chad]

Frank Turek. I think it was either him or J. Warner Wallace. It's been a couple years ago that were on it as well, but Dr. Craig made the statement that if we could go back in time and ask Jesus a question, for example, what he thought about the theory of evolution, that he would respond, I have no idea what you're talking about. And at first, it really kind of struck me as being quite odd, thinking that the creator of the universe, the one who holds everything together, would not know what the theory of evolution would be.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah.

[Chad]

Then I got to thinking, you know, when you look at Philippians 2, I think it's 2, 7. As I'm looking at it here, where it says he emptied himself. And I think that's where we get the $5 term Kenosis from. There may be Some merit to that thought, and I was just wondering what you might think about that.

[Greg Koukl]

So who was the one who made the comment that he would know anything about Darwinian? Was that Bill Craig?

[Chad]

It was Dr. Craig, yes, sir.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah. Well, that's. I would consider that from him anyway. I mean, that's totally predictable. And it's not a negative because Jesus was not.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Greg Koukl]

Now we have to be careful of how we put this, and it's a tricky issue, and there are differences of opinion. It is clear that in Jesus, human nature, he was not omniscient. He declared it as such. Matthew 24. No one knows the day or the hour of my return, not even the Son of Man, but only the Father in heaven. So Jesus in his kenosis, in his emptying, which refers back to the Philippian passage, chapter 2, Jesus emptied himself of divine prerogatives, privileges. He did not empty himself of his divinity. That would be the kenotic heresy. And this is a mysterious thing. How is it that one person with two natures, the one person of the second person of the Trinity, who has a divine nature, of course, and has added to him the human nature, that in the human nature, this one person has a limitation of knowledge. Well, that's the mystery. And we just know it's true because there is a trinity. That's a scriptural teaching, not the word there, but the substance of it is there. There is Jesus in his full humanity, who then says, I don't know. And I take that as the present tense. I think he knows. Now, the question was at the time, did he know then? No, he didn't, because he was in his unresurrected form. So unresurrected self. He was just in his natural human body. So there's got to be a way of understanding the incarnation in which Jesus didn't know things. So then, well, what did he know? Well, he knew those things that were appropriate for a man of his age and the theological insights that were critical to his mission. That's what he knew. He's not going to tell you how many electrons are revolved around a hydrogen atom. It's not even important to him as irrelevant, and I don't see why he would know that thing. So it is a speculation that Bill Craig said that, well, he wouldn't know anything about evolution. But I agree with him. It could be that he knew all kinds of different things he never talked about. The only thing he didn't know was when he was coming back at that time. But I suspect there was a Lot more he didn't know because it wasn't related in any way, shape or form to his role on Earth at that time.

[Chad]

Yeah, I realize it's a largely academic sort of question. Largely. But I know as I teach 6th to 8th graders on Sundays and I try and teach them some advanced concepts, applying some apologetic hermeneutic methods to the instruction, I get the weirdest question sometimes.

[Amy]

And I.

[Chad]

And I guarantee that when I talk about what Jesus did or didn't know, you know, you talk about sometimes where he knew things that were going to happen. He knew the thoughts of individuals around him, he knew what was, you know, was predicted to happen. You know, obviously that relates to the Scriptures, but it seems like he knew other things.

[Greg Koukl]

Sure.

[Chad]

That he normally would not have known, whether by age or by the situation itself. So why wouldn't he have known what's going. Happened, as I mentioned to Amy, what's happening in 2025 or what, you know, Darwin wrote in the mid 19th century.

[Amy]

So, yeah, it's.

[Chad]

I realize it's academic and I'm just trying to figure out how am I going to answer this to these sixth to eighth graders? Well, I think you can confuse them even more.

[Amy]

Well, I think you can answer them kind of the way I did. We know that he has divine nature and he has a human nature. So he is 100% man. Everything that's true about man is true about him. And he's 100% God. But at the same time, he admits there were things that he in his humanity didn't know. Yet he says that in Matthew 24. So we have to acknowledge. And by the way, is it Luke that says that he grew in stature and favor with both God and men? Something like that. But there's an idea of his growth and maturation. Says in Hebrews he learned obedience through the things which he suffered. Now, that's another odd one because he was never disobedient. So how did he learn obedience through the things which. It's not entirely clear. So we have these, and I would say here to your sixth or seventh graders, they say here, here's what we know. Jesus is God. We also know that he's man. But in this unique circumstance, we know that he left some things behind based on Philippians 2. So here's an allegory or metaphoric way of putting it. And that is like a king who steps down from his throne, lays aside his scepter, takes his robes off, takes off his crown and sets it aside, dons the robes of a Beggar and then walks the streets with his people. Now that individual never ceases to be king, but he is not enjoying the privileges of kingship because he's humbled himself to be among his subjects for a purpose. And that's exactly the way he's described Jesus in Philippians 2. Now that can be explained to the kids. Now how do you make sense of this? That Jesus is the person of God, but also as a human doesn't have access to all the knowledge that God has? I don't know, that's kind of a mystery. But it does tell us that that's the way it was. And even in his ministry, Hu knew things that other people didn't know. He knew what people were thinking. And in Acts, chapter no.

[Greg Koukl]

Mark, chapter.

[Amy]

Two, there he is teaching in the house that's overloaded and they drop the paralytic through the roof. And then he says, you, sins are forg. People say, who can forgive sins but God alone? Now he knows they're thinking this and he responds to that. And there are a number of other places that seems to indicate that he has more insight than the average man, so to speak. Even that kind of mind reading insight, I don't know how that happens, but that's also characteristic of this very unusual individual, Jesus of Nazareth, who is the God man. He is the God man. That's the way I would leave it. I would just bear testimony to the things the text bears testimony to. And I wouldn't try to solve it. People who try to solve things like that sometimes get themselves into trouble.

[Chad]

Oh, I've dug myself into more than one hole. Yes, sir.

[Greg Koukl]

So I hope that helps.

[Amy]

What do you think?

[Chad]

Yes, sir, it does. It really does. And you know, it's one of those things. I guess we'll ask face to face or maybe it won't matter.

[Amy]

So, yeah, yeah, yep.

[Greg Koukl]

There's a lot of questions we can.

[Amy]

Ask when we get face to face.

[Greg Koukl]

All right, I've got to run, Jed.

[Chad]

You all take care.

[Greg Koukl]

Sure, you too.

[Amy]

Bye bye. Now let's see who's next. Is that Tim? All right, we'll go to tim and number six.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay, Mr. Tim Abbotsford, British Columbia.

[Amy]

We've getting Canadian callers today. Hi, Tim.

[Chad]

Hi.

[Tim]

So I'm just passing my six month old to my wife. I'm good.

[Amy]

Okay, super.

[Tim]

Hi, how are you?

[Greg Koukl]

I'm fine. We're doing great. We got about 32 minutes left for the show.

[Amy]

I got three people on, so I wanted to get to you so we.

[Greg Koukl]

Could have a chat a little Bit.

[Amy]

About discipling your kids. Is that what you're interested in?

[Bryler]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim]

I was just wondering. I mean, I do the praying with them and going to church and not much. I do a little bit. I decided to devotion, but I feel like I'm not doing very much. I just talked to my wife before and she's a teacher and she said leading by example is probably the best thing that she can think of, but she is a lot better than me at that.

[Amy]

Well, leading by example is one of the most important things that you could do. I mean, it sounds trivial in a way, but it's really, really critically important because kids mimic their parents and I.

[Tim]

Know that's what she said.

[Amy]

Yeah, there's a study that was done by. I'm trying to remember his name. He's the one who did the 2006 study about high school kids. Anyway, this recent study, it was like.

[Greg Koukl]

How do you accomplish spiritual faithfulness in your kids as parents?

[Amy]

And he said it's like the 85% kind of certainty.

[Greg Koukl]

He said it's almost, you know, determinative. It's so high that if the parents.

[Amy]

Are living a consistent Christian life, then their children are going to do the same.

[Greg Koukl]

If the parents are living the consistent.

[Amy]

Christian life, then the children are going to be doing the same.

[Greg Koukl]

So I mean, there's things that you.

[Amy]

Could do obviously that will improve that or you can add to it. But I think your wife mentioned that. She's right on.

[Greg Koukl]

She's got it.

[Amy]

She's right about that.

[Greg Koukl]

So that's the first thing. Living consistently as followers of Christ. And you're doing some other things you mentioned that are good. I don't think in my own life I have been as successful as I'd like to be.

[Amy]

I guess everybody could say that, but.

[Greg Koukl]

My colleagues seem to be more effective in this now.

[Amy]

But how old are your kids? Let me ask you that.

[Tim]

Six months. Four years old, 11 years old. 12 years old and 17.

[Greg Koukl]

Wait, say it again. You said six months, right?

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Greg Koukl]

Four year old. Three.

[Tim]

A four year old, four 11 year old, a 12 year old and a.

[Greg Koukl]

17 year old man. You got a lot of kids. They kind of top to bottom.

[Bryler]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

Well, I was.

[Tim]

My first wife passed away from cancer. I had one son from that marriage and I got married. I see two girls and we had two boys together.

[Greg Koukl]

Oh, I see. Okay. So you got kind of a mixture here, a blend up family kind of thing. All right, well, here's. Here's what? I'll just toss some things out and I'LL give you what. Here is what I recommend to new dads. Okay. And so now you've got younger kids and then you've got older kids.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Greg Koukl]

One thing that I've recommended is that if you, whatever kind of devotional element you want to build into the life of your family. So this is a family thing, the devotional element that you build into the life of the family, you have to start it as early as possible. Ideally. Ideally, you don't want there ever to be a time in your kid's memory where this was not part of your family life, whatever that activity looks like now might be. Every night you open up the Bible and you read half a chapter and then you talk about it. I mean, I'm not recommending that, I'm just giving it as an example. Some kids have longer extension spans and so maybe you're going to abbreviate, do something more simple with the younger ones or something. But dinner table is a great time, though. Not every family operates like that, having dinner together. But that is one of the most unifying factors of families. And one of the success markers for families is that you have dinner together, no screens at the table, then everybody's together once a day and you're interacting. And then if you're all there together, when you're done, clear the plates and then spend what, 10 minutes or whatever, you know, doing something. I'm just going to call it devotional. It could be a reading, it could be a reflection, it could be a sharing time. But this is going to be, you want that to be a fixed point of your evening. And if it turns out that you then are, say out of town or can't do it on any given evening, your wife is going to do it for you and you can make it just five days a week, so take weekends off kind of thing. But the key is that it's consistent.

[Amy]

The children grow to expect it. So even when they get older, they know this is part of what you do. It's not when you start when you're 17 and they go, oh man, I.

[Greg Koukl]

Don'T want to sit around here and.

[Amy]

Do this kind of thing, then that's a lot harder. You have a blended family, so you might face some of that. I don't know.

[Tim]

No, yeah, I have a 17 year old daughter. That's funny. He's exactly like that.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay, so, but I'm talking about the ideal. This is what I tell people, beginning their family and to grow them up. And then you want to use like age appropriate kind of communication stuff. Now, in the area of apologetics, in the area of apologetics, I think Natasha Crane has done a fabulous job of putting information together, like little study guides or vignettes, little things that you can do with your kids to teach them about God and about apologetics. So it's plug and play, basically, and they're small vignettes. You probably could do them in 15 minutes. You just prepare beforehand and you read the stuff and then you know what to say to your kids. Do you guys homeschool.

[Jesse]

My one daughter?

[Tim]

We do.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay, well, sometimes that's a good place to insert the spiritual teaching or training. But if you can do it, you know, like I said, as a whole family, that's going to be better. And what's nice about Natasha Crane, that's C R A I n her first. Oh, you know who he is? She is, yeah. Okay, that's good. But for the rest of the folk, her first book was Keeping your kids on God's side. And she just gives good advice there. And what I like is that it's turnkey. You don't have to reinvent the wheel that she's already invented. And so I would use something like that. And then the only other thing I'd say is that one of the most important factors, or elements, that's a better word, elements of Jesus discipling of his disciples, the most important elements was that he was with them. He was with them. And I was discipled regularly, I mean, very intensely for two and a half years by one fellow that was a guy, Craig his name was, who was part of a community that I was in. And we were together all the time. And so we would play tennis together, we'd go fishing together, you know, we'd go on vacation things together. We go hiking together. We'd go, you know, go to Bible studies together, we'd go to outreaches together. We'd walk, you know, when the Exorcist was playing in Westwood Village, when it first came out, way back when we were walking the lines and handing out flyers. You better read this before you go in there, man. You're going to wish you had kind of thing. So the key there, it wasn't that Craig was always teaching me something. It's that we were together. And there was so much I got from Craig that I kind of absorbed being with him. So this weekend. Not this weekend, next weekend is Minneapolis. And reality. Well, my daughter's going with me and she didn't travel with me very often. But this is a great opportunity for us to be together. And she can see me in my element interacting with different people. I want some of that just to rub off on her. I want the people that I'm around and the people she gets to meet and hang out with. All of that has a salutary effect on our kids. In fact, all of our guys who have kids. So this would be Tim, this would be John, John Noyes, Tim Barnett, Ellen Schliemann, the Allmans, Trippin, Megan Allman. They bring their kids so they're all with them and this becomes a discipleship element, just hanging out. So that's kids. And I still do this with. I went to Nashville last week on Wednesday, actually went on Tuesday, and I called a buddy of mine there who's a podcaster. I said, hey, come with me to this TV thing I'm doing and you could just sit in and then we'll go and do this, that and the other thing. And I was in another blog with someone else, Alisa Childers. And then I was a blog at his house, you know, and did his thing. But it's. The idea is I wanted to include him just so we're hanging out and maybe some things would rub off and you can do the same thing with the children. The more that you're with your children and they see your spiritual behaviors, whatever they happen to be, how you give thanks at the mealtime, if you do it in a perfunctory way, that will have one influence. If you are praying from your heart in a reverent way to God, that's going to have a different impact, I think. So those are the kinds of things that I'd suggest for you with your kids.

[Tim]

Yeah, no, that's, that's really, really, really good to know. That helps me a lot.

[Greg Koukl]

All right, Tim. And someday where are you at? British Columbia. Let's see. We don't have anything up by there. You're gonna have to fly to Minneapolis with your kids someday and go to reality.

[Tim]

Yeah, I would love to one day.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay.

[Tim]

There's a course from Frankfurt that's. Or I forget what it's called, but for your kids. And I'm thinking I'm doing that for my 11 and 12 year old.

[Greg Koukl]

Good.

[Tim]

Well, it's apologetic. I would love. I've done a few with him and I would love to do it with my kids.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay, super. And keep in mind too, you can always ship them out like when they get, what, 16 or 17. What is it the year for? The earliest for summit ministry. That's a two week thing. But that's just something you could do. So you're going to do stuff for yourself. You're going to teach with them, have your time as a family. You're going to be hanging with them at different opportunities. And then maybe sometimes when they're older, you ship them off to things that will be helpful in that regard, too. All right, gotta run. Okay, Tim.

[Tim]

All right. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Greg.

[Greg Koukl]

You're welcome, buddy. Glad you called. Bye. Bye, now. All right, let's go to Susan in Los Angeles. I'm sprinting a little bit here because I want to make sure I get everyone in. Susan, welcome.

[Susan]

Hi. Thank you.

[Greg Koukl]

Sure.

[Susan]

I have a question about Jeremiah 29:11.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay.

[Susan]

Leading a Bible study. We were talking about context. I was explaining why we can't take that verse as a personal promise. We went through, you know, the first 10 verses, explained it all. I got quite a bit of pushback.

[Greg Koukl]

On it, and I'm not surprised.

[Susan]

Yes.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah.

[Susan]

It is a sensitive subject, but I. I did a little research when I got home, and I saw that John Piper actually says that. We can claim this as a personal comment.

[Greg Koukl]

Oh, I know he.

[Chad]

Okay.

[Susan]

So do you know his arguments?

[Bryler]

He says that?

[Greg Koukl]

Yes. It's very distressing when I read that and I actually commented about. It was a year and a half or two years ago when he said it, but I don't mind responding again, but I was very distressed when I saw that he drew out of the Second Corinthians where it says that all the promises of God are. Yes, in Christ Jesus. Right?

[Susan]

That's right. And also Romans, where since God didn't spare his son, then he will give us all things.

[Amy]

Oh, God, that's so painful.

[Greg Koukl]

It's so painful.

[Amy]

With all respects to John Piper, it's so painful because it's so bad. He's going to give us all things. He's going to give us hell. Well, hell's one of all things, isn't it? Oh, no, not hell. Well, why not? If you're just going to take this in wooden literalism, probably in the context. If I went to Romans, I'd find something else. But I'm going back to Jeremiah right now, and I want to look at a different promise. All right? That is in this passage, okay? Jeremiah 29:11 and 4. I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord, plans for welfare, not for calamity, to give you a future and a hope. So let's talk about this a few minutes. I got another caller. I got to get To Jesse. But let me just deal with. I want to say a couple things about this. Is this good New Testament theology that God has for us plans for welfare and not calamity, to have a future and a hope. And by the way, he clarifies in this passage what he means.

[Greg Koukl]

I will listen to you when you.

[Amy]

Call upon me and pray to me.

[Greg Koukl]

You will seek me, find me when.

[Amy]

You seek me, and be fine by you.

[Greg Koukl]

And I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations.

[Amy]

From the places where I have driven you. This is all part of the promise.

[Greg Koukl]

So I will restore your fortunes. Oh, man, I'm glad those promises are. Yes. Because I lost money in the stock.

[Amy]

Market a couple years ago, lots of it, when the market crashed. I'm getting all of that back because the promises are.

[Greg Koukl]

Yes, right. Yes. For Christians. Right. So let's see. Does that apply here? You see what I'm doing?

[Susan]

Yes. Yes.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay. If it applies to verse 11, why doesn't it apply to verse 14? I'm on my way to Israel.

[Susan]

That was one of the things I asked too, in my class. It was like, well, I brought up Abraham's promise, God's promise that his descendants.

[Greg Koukl]

Would be the numerous. Right.

[Susan]

So I, my question that I proposed was, where do you stop claiming promises?

[Amy]

Right.

[Greg Koukl]

Do you?

[Susan]

If this one, if you want to claim this one in Jeremiah, why aren't you claiming David's promises or Abraham's promises?

[Amy]

Sure.

[Susan]

But I didn't get a satisfactory answer.

[Greg Koukl]

But I know there is no satisfactory answer, right?

[Susan]

There is none. So. Well, thank you. I was just surprised to see that from John Piper. And I hadn't heard your response to that.

[Greg Koukl]

You know, it's, it's, it just along the same lines. Just because they were promised to some. One group of people. Okay, was. Let's see, who is Samuel's mom? She was. Who is it?

[Amy]

Hannah.

[Greg Koukl]

So Hannah was barren and, and God promised a child to her, just like to Elizabeth, who is Zechariah's wife, John the Baptist's mom. Does this mean there are never going to be any barren Christian women left in the world? Because all the promises are. Yes. I mean, it's so amazing that someone of his stature, who I have great respect for and my respect is not diminished. I just am stunned by this. Now, one of the other things going on in Jeremiah 29 is there is. There are two promises given here. One is for welfare and not calamity, which by the way, in the New Testament is the other way around. We are promised calamity not welfare in this world, you have tribulation. So we have explicit New Testament promises that go against this particular promise for the Jews under that unique set of circumstances. Secondly, there's another promise that's given, and.

[Amy]

This has to do with verse 16 and following. Concerning the king who sits on the.

[Greg Koukl]

Throne of David, concerning all the people who dwell in this city.

[Amy]

Your brothers who did not go with you into exile. He commanded them to go. They said, no, I'm going to stay here. We're going to beat these guys. All right, what's their promise?

[Greg Koukl]

Behold, I am sending upon them the sword, famine, pestilence. I will make them like split open figs that cannot be eaten due to rottenness. I will pursue them with sword, famine and pestilence. I will make them a terror and the kingdoms to be of a curse and a horror. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Try to stitch that on a pillow.

[Amy]

Why don't they claim that one? Why is that promise not yes to us? According to 2 Corinthians, it's the exact opposite promise than what comes earlier. How can both promises be yes when they contradict each other?

[Greg Koukl]

Do you see the problems?

[Susan]

Yeah, I do. Just in the heat of the moment, it was hard to defend.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah, I understand all the feedback I got people.

[Susan]

The other thing I.

[Greg Koukl]

Go ahead.

[Susan]

The other defense of Jeremiah 20:21 11 I heard is that first Peter is a commentary on that. On, I guess the verse or the chapter, because Peter talks about exiles and he refers to Babylon and he gives hope and I guess a future in the book. Is that something that you're familiar with?

[Amy]

No, I'm not familiar with that. I haven't heard that one yet.

[Greg Koukl]

It's kind of like this when you have two interpretations.

[Amy]

You got to look at what's the evidence for one versus the evidence for a contrary view.

[Greg Koukl]

So somebody might make one. Peter, this is all right, but then you've got what I just said. Okay, If Peter is identifying this as a promise somehow that applies to us, then which of these two promises apply to us?

[Amy]

The one for welfare, Not. What's the word here now? 11.

[Greg Koukl]

Welfare or not calamity, or calamity and not welfare. Both promises are here. Well, the answer to that is you can't get the answer from the New Testament. You have to get it from the.

[Amy]

Context in which this thing is given.

[Greg Koukl]

And there's an express application to one group of people and express application to a different group of people. It is not an open wide promise for whoever, whenever. However, it just isn't. Now Look, I've had these conversations with people before and many people are so tied to certain things like this, they will not change their mind. Well, that's up to them before the Lord. But this is a distortion and corruption of God's word when they do this. In fact, if they use the word of God in a way that God did not purpose it to be used, it's no longer God's word. Just like your words to somebody that get distorted by somebody else are not.

[Amy]

Really your words, they're a distortion of your words.

[Greg Koukl]

But it's very difficult to talk with people on this. Hey, listen, Susan, I'd love to talk to you more about this and I'm glad you're fighting this battle a little bit with people, trying to get them to read in context and you have a little bit more to think about when you talk with them. Please don't be discouraged if they don't listen. I mean, that's just the way people are. But I'm gonna have to run to the next caller. Thank you.

[Susan]

This has been helpful.

[Greg Koukl]

Bye bye. Okay, Susan, call again. We'll talk more detail about it. All right, great. Okay, bye bye bye now. Okay, you made it. Jesse in Arizona. Gotcha.

[Jesse]

Hey, how's it going?

[Greg Koukl]

Good. Quickly is what it's going. Time is going. Quickly is what's happened. So what's on your mind?

[Jesse]

Well, this is a long time or a long coming question or a long time coming where I was thinking about this, but I want to know specifically in the ministry, how do you know if you're called to enter the ministry as an apologist versus just someone who has a deep seated interest in apologetics and Bible study.

[Greg Koukl]

And.

[Jesse]

I've done my due diligence, you.

[Greg Koukl]

Know, I've read, you know, the Bible.

[Jesse]

And stuff and study for many years.

[Greg Koukl]

Sure.

[Jesse]

And I've done prayer and self examination. I'm at the point right now where I'm, I guess I would call that step seeking counsel, asking a theologian like yourself and serve in context, you know, administer to anyone who will listen. Anytime it comes up, I'm not afraid to talk about, okay, God, the Holy Bible. And I, and I do it not.

[Chad]

For my own.

[Bryler]

Self pleasure.

[Jesse]

I do it to edify other people's lives and to correct untruth. That's my favorite thing to do, actually point out that many versions of the truth are lies and there's only a version of the truth that is called the truth.

[Amy]

Well, all that you said sounds really great and I think it is really great when somebody raises the question about calling. Okay. And by the way, there is a huge. How could I put it? A received evangelical tradition on this. The tradition is to go into ministry, we need to be called into ministry. And if we are called, then we follow the calling. And if we're not called, then we don't belong there. That's kind of a general thing. But I heard how an individual who is being considered to get a minister's license or to be ordained, the board.

[Greg Koukl]

Asked him, what is your call?

[Amy]

Describe to us your call to ministry. And that was the question they asked him, what is your call? So they're asking for verification of the legitimacy of the direction he's going to, going through. Right. So he asked two questions, and these are really important. And the first question is, where in Scripture is feeling a call a requirement to do ministry? And the second question is, actually, I got them in reverse order. The first question is, what is that that you're asking me if I've had? What is that? And he said nobody on the panel could even define it for him. Some described it in very subjective terms. Well, it's just this sense that you have, or a feeling that you have or something like that, that this is what God wants you to do.

[Greg Koukl]

Yes.

[Amy]

So it's very vague. It's very vague.

[Bryler]

It is.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Jesse]

That's the thing. I've been thinking back since the first time I was brought to church by a very friend, very good friends and mentor in high school back in the 90s. And I could be mistaken, but I want to say George Meyer did a guest appearance at this small little church in Southern California somewhere in Hemet. And I want to say that she stopped in and just gave a guest speaking, because it was the first time I saw a female pastor minister to a ministry. And I was blown away. I was enthralled. I was sitting on the aisle seat, small church. We had chairs, not pews. And she was just speaking. And then all of a sudden, it was my first time to church ever, you know, or like it was. I've gone to other churches, but this is the first time I was invited to go and actually began my step to, you know, a relationship with Jesus.

[Amy]

Sure.

[Jesse]

And she pointed right at me, and she says, and who knows? And she's pointing at everyone else, and she's like, you might have. You might do this, you might do that. And then she pointed to me and said, you might be a good teacher in the word of God or something. And that has always stuck with me. And I've been thinking about that ever since the 90s.

[Amy]

Okay, let me. Let me put it in perspective for you, because I got like three, three and a half minutes here. She's right. You might be. So might everybody else. All it was was a suggestion that you might. An encouragement to think ahead and maybe think loftier possibilities for yourself. But there's nothing in that kind of thing that intimates a directive from God what we ought to take.

[Jesse]

I would say in answer to your. Sorry to interrupt, but in answer to your question, I would look to Romans when it talks about the predestination and being called. And then there's a couple other books.

[Tim]

I can think of.

[Amy]

Okay. But that calling has to do with salvation. It doesn't have to do with ministry. Paul was called as an apostle, and it's about the only case in the entire New Testament where it uses the word kaleo describing the assignment of a ministry. Here's the general principle, and I don't have time to flesh it all out, but hopefully it'll put your heart at rest. The Scripture does not teach that God distributes ministry through calling. It's a huge presumption and a misunderstanding that is deeply embedded in Christian circles, but it's not in Scripture. God doesn't distribute. Yeah, there's a second part to this first part. He does not distribute ministry through calling. He distributes ministry through gifting. And 1st Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 4. These are all different references where the idea of spiritual gifts are mentioned as being given by the Holy Spirit to give us direction about how we are to function in the body of Christ. Now, I'm of the conviction if you have a spiritual gift, it's not unusual that you would desire to use it in a particular way. I started apologetics because I loved apologetics.

[Greg Koukl]

I also taught apologetics because I had.

[Amy]

A gift in teaching.

[Greg Koukl]

And so I took the thing that.

[Amy]

I enjoyed and I coupled it with my gift.

[Greg Koukl]

And now I'm a teacher of apologetics.

[Amy]

And have been honing that capability as.

[Greg Koukl]

A specialty for the last 50 years. That's the way it works.

[Amy]

You do not need to have any.

[Greg Koukl]

Kind of supernatural sense that this is.

[Amy]

What God wants you to do.

[Greg Koukl]

It's better to ask the question of what can I do? What are my capabilities?

[Amy]

What bears fruit? And also what do I want to do? I think all of those are legitimate.

[Greg Koukl]

Questions to making this decision.

[Jesse]

Thank you so much for that perspective. That makes so much sense. And the whole reason why I asked the question is because the first pastor I had, the small non denominational church, he said you have to be called to be in the ministry. That's what I'm struggling with right now.

[Greg Koukl]

Well, I'm just trying to take the burden off your shoulders because, Jesse, that's not chapter and verse. Where does this show? It's nowhere in the New Testament, just nowhere.

[Amy]

But gifting stuff is everywhere. Check out those, those chapters that I, that I, that I mentioned.

[Greg Koukl]

First Corinthians 13.

[Amy]

No.

[Greg Koukl]

First Corinthians 12, Romans 12, Ephesians 4.

[Amy]

And somewhere in First Peter.

[Greg Koukl]

All right. That's all that I have time for. Jesse, I appreciate your call. It's important. Maybe we'll talk some more about it later.

[Amy]

Later when I have more opportunity.

[Greg Koukl]

Greg Kokel here for Stand a reason.

[Amy]

Give him heaven, friends.

[Greg Koukl]

Bye bye.

[Amy]

Now.

[Greg Koukl]

It.