Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast

Host: Greg Koukl
Episode: What If a Darwinist Denies There’s Something Wrong with the World?
Date: October 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a philosophical and theological challenge: If a Darwinist denies that there's anything wrong with the world, how should Christians respond? Greg Koukl explores the intuitive, shared sense of “brokenness” and evil in the world, critiques the adequacy of a strict Darwinian or naturalistic response, and explains how this dialogue opens opportunities for discussing the moral argument for God’s existence. The episode also features listener Q&A on baptism in progressive churches, human value versus animal value, and the use of feelings in worship music, providing a variety of practical and apologetic insights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem of Evil and Darwinism

Main Segment: [02:04]–[13:47]

Listener Question:
“When you say that almost everybody acknowledges that there's something wrong with the world, what if a Darwinist says that's simply survival of the fittest? Everything that Christians think is wrong with the world is just the dog eat dog nature of the place.” ([02:04] Chuck from Memphis)

Greg’s Response Summary:

• Universal Moral Intuition:

  • Across cultures and times, people intuitively sense the world is broken or “not the way it’s supposed to be.”
  • “It's not just Christians… everybody knows that something is wrong with the world.” ([02:25])

• Dog-Eat-Dog and Description vs. Prescription:

  • Even if Darwinists claim the world is merely “nature red in tooth and claw,” most still react as if something is wrong; their moral intuition persists.
  • “People see that and say, well, that may be the way it is, but that's not the way the world is supposed to be. All right?” ([02:25])

• Limits of Darwinism/Naturalism:

  • Darwinism is a biological theory; the notion that “there’s something wrong” is not biological but moral.
  • Under naturalistic atheism, there can be “no objective morality… just molecules in motion.” ([03:30])
  • “If atheism is true, then it's just dog eat dog, right?... And that's merely a description.” ([04:46])

• Hand-Waving Objection:

  • Responding “that’s just survival of the fittest” dodges the real question, offering description—not an explanation for the normative human response to evil.
  • “This is hand waving. This is an appeal to a naturalistic process that gives no room for moral, objective, moral categories…” ([05:45])

• The Moral Argument for God:

  • The universal awareness of brokenness is leveraged as evidence for theism; it’s foundational for the moral argument for God.
  • “This gives us a kind of a starting point or a launching pad, a given that everyone agrees to… they're perceiving the wrongness that's in the world.” ([11:19])

• Challenge for Atheism/Naturalism:

  • To be consistent, the atheist must admit there is “no evil in the world... there is no criterion by which we can assess the condition of the world to call it broken.” ([07:20])
  • Koukl challenges: “You have to bite the bullet and say it's not really broken. There is no evil in the world. Now that's going to be hard to do because we know too much. It's just too obvious to everyone…” ([12:04])

• Why Every Religion Offers a Solution:

  • “Which, by the way, is why every religion, every worldview offers an antidote. It offers a way to escape the brokenness of the world.” ([10:50])

• Memorable Quote:

  • “People believe something's wrong because they're perceiving the wrongness that's in the world.” ([12:04])

2. Should Christians Attend a Baptism at an LGBTQ-Affirming Church?

Key Segment: [13:47]–[20:24]

Listener Question:
“My nephew is getting baptized at a Lutheran church that positively publicly affirms LGBTQ persons and lifestyles. Is it appropriate to attend and celebrate at this type of church?” ([13:47] Jason)

Greg’s Response Summary:

• Principle of Celebration:

  • “You can celebrate that… even though the church itself has heterodox views on other issues.” ([14:40])
  • Attend to support the individual’s commitment to Christ, not the church’s theology.

• Compare to Other Contexts:

  • Distinct from attending a same-sex wedding; here, the focus is on a sacrament, not a particular celebration of a moral stance.

• Long-Term Influence:

  • Attending the baptism maintains relationship, allowing ongoing spiritual influence.
  • “You may have the opportunity to influence their spiritual growth in the future… encourage the 15 year old… to find a more orthodox, Bible-believing church.” ([16:01])

• Follow Your Conscience:

  • “If you can't do certain things… it's better not to do them… follow your conscience as to the merits.” ([18:30])

• Memorable Quote:

  • “I think it would be okay… If they're being baptized into Christ.” ([18:14])

3. Human Value vs. Animal Value and Pet Ownership

Key Segment: [21:53]–[34:20]

Listener Question:
“If humans are more valuable than animals, why do you have dogs instead of taking in orphans or donating that money to help human lives?” ([22:21] Rob from Indianapolis)

Greg’s Response Summary:

• Hierarchy of Value Doesn’t Require All-Or-Nothing Behavior:

  • “There are a host of things that are valuable in different measures for us that we can legitimately pursue… spending something on yourself for personal enjoyment, like for a pet, this doesn't strike me as being inappropriate.” ([22:40])

• Atheists Share This Intuition:

  • “Don’t you think human beings are more valuable than animals?... Or do you think that all animals and all human beings all have the same value?... Even atheists, if they're being even handed, fair minded, they're saying no, it seems like it's different, it feels different. Well, maybe it feels different because it is different.” ([24:30])

• Shared Inconsistency Across Worldviews:

  • “Everybody can be taken to task… if we're going to take the Christian to task… why can't we take the atheist to task for having the same belief without any grounding for it?” ([25:32])

• Scriptural Principle:

  • Proverbs 12:10 & 2 Samuel 12:3 cited to reflect that care for animals is scriptural, though human needs are prioritized.

• Practical Generosity:

  • “We ought to be giving consideration to the poor… making that part of your budget is really important.” ([31:29])

• Maximum Critique = Inconsistency:

  • “The best you could say about this concern is that there is an inconsistency in Christians beliefs and their behavior, but it doesn't demonstrate that their beliefs are false.” ([33:10])

• Memorable Quote:

  • “I think the belief about human beings being valuable intrinsically, transcendently is obviously true and justified.” ([33:50])

4. “Lord of Heaven’s Armies” in the Old Testament

Key Segment: [34:20]–[43:01]

Listener Question:
“Why does God refer to himself as the Lord of Heaven’s Armies (Lord of Hosts) more frequently in the later OT books?” ([34:20] Tom)

Greg’s Response Summary:

• Term Significance:

  • Emphasizes God's military might and role as protector/judge.
  • “These are phrases that focus on a particular role or function of God as a military might.” ([35:08])

• Historical Context:

  • Increased use likely correlates with Israel’s national crises, threats, impending judgment, and the warnings of prophets.

• Conditional Covenant:

  • God’s military protection (or judgment) is conditional on Israel’s obedience.

• Speculative Reason:

  • As Israel grew more disobedient, prophets used militaristic language to underscore coming judgment from “the Lord of Hosts.”

5. Personal Feelings in Worship Music

Key Segment: [43:01]–[53:30] (episode end)

Listener Question:
“Is there something wrong with singing worship songs that use personal pronouns and express personal feelings, eg. ‘I love you’ to God?” ([43:01] Jason from Oklahoma)

Greg’s Response Summary:

• No Blanket Objection:

  • “I am not opposed to singing about my feelings per se… I was singing about my feelings this morning.” ([44:26])

• Authenticity Over Manipulation:

  • The issue is when worship leaders try to generate emotions in the congregation that people aren’t authentically feeling.
  • “Sometimes I wish that the worship leaders would start out more slowly with more contemplative music… I just want my worship to be truthful and authentic and not about me so much.” ([47:07])

• Scripture Supports Emotional Expression:

  • Psalms are replete with emotional outpourings, honesty, and personal pronouns.

• Older Hymns vs. Modern Worship:

  • Older hymns tend to be more God-focused (theocentric); modern songs often focus on the singer’s feelings.
  • “It turns out that older hymns are more like that. They're more theocentric, they're more Christocentric… I can sing that with integrity.” ([50:23])

• Memorable Quotes:

  • “There's nothing wrong with that per se. I was speaking about certain habits in worship, all right?” ([44:53])
  • “I just want my worship to be truthful and authentic and not about me so much.” ([47:20])
  • “When I'm on my own, I find those songs that really speak to my heart… that I could sing in a personal prayer to God authentically.” ([52:57])

Notable Quotes (With Timestamps)

• On Universal Moral Intuition:

  “Everybody knows that something is wrong with the world.” – Greg Koukl [02:25]

• On Darwinism and Moral Categories:

  “If atheism is true, then it's just dog eat dog, right?... And that's merely a description.” – Greg Koukl [04:46]

• On Consistency and Worldview:

  “If we're going to take the Christian to task… why can't we take the atheist to task for having the same belief without any grounding for it?” – Greg Koukl [25:32]

• On Worship Authenticity:

  “I just want my worship to be truthful and authentic and not about me so much.” – Greg Koukl [47:20]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:04] – Main Darwinism/Evil Question (Chuck)
• [13:47] – Baptism at LGBTQ-Affirming Church (Jason)
• [21:53] – Human Value vs. Animal Value, Pets (Rob)
• [34:20] – “Lord of Heaven’s Armies” Usage (Tom)
• [43:01] – Personal Feelings in Worship Music (Jason)

Overall Tone & Style

Greg Koukl is thoughtful, courteous, and direct. He leverages philosophical clarity, scriptural backing, and personal anecdotes to respond honestly, always urging humility and self-awareness (“We do live inconsistent lives... I’m not justifying that.”). His approach is winsome, careful, and invites deeper consideration of how worldview relates to lived experience.

Conclusion

This episode robustly defends the existence of objective moral realities, using everyday experience and cross-worldview dialogue to show the limitations of strict naturalism and the explanatory richness of Christian theism. Listener questions further expand on practical ethics and church life, always rooting answers in biblical principles and consideration of conscience.