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- [00:05]
A
SA all right, my friends, let's do a show together. What do you think? Greg Kokel here for stand a reason. This is an open mic show here today. That means I'll be taking calls that you guys have deposited on our website. And I especially like this option because it gives so much, many more, so many more of you an opportunity to participate in our program. Not waiting in the long queues. That sometimes is the case if you call in during our live segment, which happens characteristically on Tuesdays. Not characteristically, but always Tuesdays from 4 until 6pm Los Angeles time. All right, this, this particular show is not a live one. And so we take your calls that you leave on the open mic facility on the web. And if you want to go there to leave a question for me, just go to str.org that's our website. And under podcast you'll see live broadcast. Then you can follow the prompts there to submit an open mic question and then it gets added to the queue. And I've got, you know, five or six pages of your questions that I work through. As time goes on, I usually try to do the oldest ones first. And that's what we're going to do today. Okay, once Again, go to str.org a podcast link and to live podcast. And then you could submit your open mic question to me. And then I'll, on days like this, then I'll use those questions and answer them. So this first one is from. Let's see, Kenneth. It has to do with a verse out of the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 13. All right, Kenneth, what's on your mind?
- [02:29]
B
Hi, Greg, My question is about introduction, Deuteronomy. There are a bunch of places where the phrase all Israel will hear and be afraid comes up. The one that we're looking at in our Bible reading right now is Deuteronomy 21, where there's an unruly son. And the regulations are the parents are to bring, bring them to the elders or something like that, and then the people of the city will stone them, stone the child, and then all Israel will hear and be afraid. And I've always thought of it as, well, this punishment gets carried out somewhere and my goodness, everybody is afraid that this kind of thing could happen. But the other thought I had was, is it perhaps just talking about the punishment itself? Everybody will hear about how severe this punishment is, and that's what they're afraid about. I remember in some other podcasts you've mentioned that there's not a lot of evidence that These really severe punishments were actually carried out. So have I been misinterpreting the All Israel will hear and be afraid. Thanks for your insight. I really enjoy your show.
- [03:49]
A
Well, thanks, Kenneth. And I don't know that I ever said, I'm trying to remember that these were severe punishments that weren't carried out. I know that Dennis Prager has said that regarding homosexuality and the sentences for those who participated in homosexuality, it was a capital crime. And he said, well, this was never carried out. First of all, I don't know how someone could know that because you'd have to know the negative that it never happened. You can know the positive that it did happen if it's recorded. But I don't know how someone could say it never happened unless there was some reliable source that said that over thousands of years, the thousand years or so that Israel had the law in the theocracy or even under the kingship, when the law still applied, that these punishments were never meted out. Just because we have no record in the text of that happening doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, we don't have a record of most of the elements of the law and the punishments applicable to them. We don't see those. We don't have record of that either. We have a record of the law. And in general, the Jews didn't keep the law, but that, particularly the one about idolatry. I don't know other aspects of the law that had to do with, you know, these kinds of affairs, but certainly the expectation is, even if the people didn't keep it, it wasn't because it wasn't meant to be practiced, but that they disobeyed by not keeping it. That would be my general sense, and it doesn't make any sense to me to suggest that the reason that the law was given was just to frighten people into obedience because of the severity of the punishment prescribed. If the punishment was never carried out, nobody took it seriously. Look, in the state of California, there are laws against petty theft, misdemeanor theft. Okay? I think it's like if you steal under $1,000, that's misdemeanor. Anything more than that, a felony. Well, it turns out that the state has declared either passively or. Or actively. I think somewhat actively, we're just not going to prosecute misdemeanors. Well, what happened as a result was there was a whole spate of crimes against stores like Walgreens and other ones where people just came in and gathered up in a basket about $900 worth of stuff and just walked out. Nobody could do anything about it. So if the law is on the books, but it's not enforced, then the law in the books has no effect. And I think the same thing is true about these laws and their punishments that we find in the Mosaic Law, this being Deuteronomy second round of giving the law. Remember, Moses gave the law initially at Sinai, and then, like a whole generation, passed away because 40 years of wandering, and now they're about to take the land. A new generation. This is Moses now giving the law a second time to this new generation. That's why it's called Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy second law. But here's the passage in question. It's Deuteronomy 13 and verse 10 and 11. Let me just look at the larger context. Verse six. If your brother, your mother's son, your son, your daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is in your own, who. Who is as your own soul, close friend, entice you, secretly saying, let us go and serve other gods whom neither you nor your fathers have known of the gods of the peoples who around you, near you, or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other. You shall not yield to him or listen to him, and your eyes shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him, but you shall surely kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Now, the verse in question. Now we have the kind of flow of thought. So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the Lord your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Then all of Israel will hear and be afraid and will never again do such a wicked thing among you. Notice in verse 11 that starts with the word then that is applying to what is being said in verse 10. If you do this, then the people will have this response. They will hear and be afraid and will never again do this. Now, apparently this law wasn't consistently followed. Ergo, there was lots of adultery. I'm sorry, lots of idolatry in ancient Israel. And this is what the prophets spoke of consistently now. And sometimes there were public executions. I'm thinking of the first kings, 18. Now, this was a prophet, Elijah, that called the other prophets of BAAL and Ashtaroth to a contest of sorts. Of course, they lost, and they were all slain, hundreds of them, because they were leading Israel astray. So certainly there were executions that were carried out in light of these kinds of commands. Now, if it's not done consistently, it's not going to have the desired effect, but the desired effect was you do this, people get punished for the evil they've done, and they won't do the evil. Or actually if it's capital punishment, obviously they're not going to do the evil, but others will see and fear that kind of punishment, and therefore they're not going to do it. To me, this is not mysterious. And if a law, if criminals are prosecuted, then you'll have fewer criminals. If they are not prosecuted, you're going to have more, no doubt. Right. And that's why Paul identifies the role of the government as for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do. Right. You punish evil, you have less evil. You praise good, you have more good. Like I said, no duh. So I think the same dynamic is in play in this circumstance. Okay, so there you go, Kenneth. Let's see. I have John here who asked a question about dealing with a bully and some of Jesus comments and how they would apply. Let's see what that specific question is. John.
- [11:44]
C
Yes, Hello. My question is my. Me and my wife are embroiled with a significant estate lawsuit with her sibling. It has to do with the. The home. And this is a sibling that has basically persecuted my wife for many years. It's a very long story, but there's actually six kids and the other four, so five of them agree that, you know, the mother's intent was to do the estate a particular way. And you could see, and the CPA says the same thing other people. And you could see in the document where the attorney tried to get that accomplished but failed due to technicalities. And initially we were going to drop it, but this is a woman who basically had an affair almost 20 years ago. And interestingly enough, it was related to a family member of mine and she basically lied about it and accused him of having the affair. In any event, what happened was my wife got involved to the extent that she was asked to by the husband at the time to help the kids go through court, do other things. And basically this other sister convinced the parents that she was a traitor and, and actually was helping an adulterer. So she's flipped the flip the script without getting into too much detail. It's just been, you know, she lost her family for basically, my wife lost her family for basically 10 years. And so this persecution is. Is been relentless for 20 years. So how do we reconcile this with you know, removing the lock from her own eye, you know, not approaching the altar unless our own consciences are clean, being able to forgive. I mean, this, this lady is an evil bully, essentially. And so, you know, do we let this evil bully get away with this or do we continue to pursue this? And anyway, that's, that's my question. Really struggling at this point.
- [13:46]
A
Thanks. Well, John, that is a challenging circumstance and there's a lot of detail there. I, I tried to follow it all, but I think your summary is about seeking justice of some sort in the face of, as you put it, the evil bully. And how does that fit in with Jesus comments about leaving your offering at the altar and reconciling with someone, taking the log out of your own eye. I mentioned just a moment ago with the other question that the role of the law is the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. That's God's intention for government. So there is nothing wrong with seeking justice in a circumstance. This is a general principle. If you have been wronged and harmed by someone, then seeking justice for the harm is not a bad thing. It's an appropriate thing. It's what the government is designed by God to accomplish. Now, there is a unique circumstance Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians where you have a dispute between brothers and sisters in Christ, and instead of going to law regarding a civil dispute, you go to the church and let the leadership of the church work it out with you. You're still seeking justice, by the way. You're still seeking an appropriate resolution to the problem. But you're seeking it since in this case there are Christians involved one versus another, then it's the Church that is to work that out. You don't go to court before the world. That's the way Paul puts it. You don't go to law against another Christian before the world. Go to law, so to speak, within the body of Christ. But this seems to be a different circumstance. And when evil is done to you, you have recourse with the law and there's no harm there. There's no wrong being done. Now, you mentioned two different passages that I actually don't see how they apply to this circumstance. One, Jesus talks about leaving your offering at the altar, but the circumstances, and I don't have it right in front of me, so I'm dealing from memory. But as I recall, the circumstance is that when you are at odds with a brother and the brother has something against you, that is you are the guilty party before the brother what's the point of coming and making religious motions by bringing your offering when you have this circumstance that you need to reconcile with them? And notice that I think Jesus wording was the brother has something against you. The presumption there is that you are the guilty party and you're going through religious motions while you have this responsibility, this guilt upon you, this liability. And Jesus said, hey, just forget about your religious actions. Do the right thing here. Reconcile with your brother. Resolve this issue. And there is a similar thing going on in Matthew chapter 7, where Jesus makes this reference to getting the log out of your own eye. And the broader context is really important there. The verse starts out famously with judge not, lest you be judged, and then continues that when you judge, the same measure will be applied to you. And then it says, don't throw what is holy to dogs. Oh, no. Then he says, this is the text that you mentioned. Then he says, why are you trying to take the splinter out of somebody else's eye in your judgment of them, when there is a log in your own eye that you'll be judged for? See, this all fits together as a unit. Now notice what's being dealt with. There is a person who is picking at a minor thing in someone else when they are guilty of a much bigger thing. And then Jesus says, first take the log out of your eye, and then you'll be in a position to remove the splinter from somebody else's. The log's in your eye, you can't see clearly. Once you remove the log, you'll be able to deal with the splinter. He has more to say. But with regards to this issue, what's going on here is Jesus is chastising those who are harming others in one way, in a big way, and then picking at them for their wrongdoing when their wrongdoing is small and the first person's is large. Deal with your own issue, your problem first, before you start addressing someone else. Okay, so in both of these cases, the comments of Jesus are being addressed to the injuring party, the party in the wrong in one way or another, not the injured party. So it seems to me what you described as an evil bully is not a circumstance then that, that. That these verses apply to. They would apply to the other person if the other person is claiming some kind of, you know, higher moral ground. Maybe they're Christian, which I doubt from what you've described, or maybe they just think they're in the right, they've got a case, when in fact the bigger problem is with them. That's the log versus the splinter. And so if that's the case, if the wounded party here is not at fault, I see no reason why that person can't pursue legal action that's appropriate for the circumstances. If they desire to resolve this issue and get it done with. That's what the law is there for. Punishment of evildoers, praise of those who do right. There's nothing wrong with going to law for a just cause on your own behalf. And from what I just heard, that's the case. If you have an evil bully that continues to bully and you have legal recourse, there's nothing wrong with taking is not a violation of Jesus command to remove the log out of your own eye. I suspect there's no log. If there is, do so. But I also don't think the application of, you know, leave your offering at the altar is appropriate here. Because again, what you've described is the injured party here, not the bully. The bully. If he's going to the altar and he's got all this against other people, or I should say others have it against him legitimately, if he's the party in the wrong, if he's the bad actor and then carrying on in some religious sense, well, then that verse applies to him. So that would be my answer based on what I know about the circumstances you just described. All right, and thank you for your for your question. Okay, let's take a break and I'll be back with more questions when I return on Stan Teresa, have you seen.
- [21:36]
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Our brand new website? Stop by str.org and enjoy a fresh, clean layout with all the same great content. The new Standaresin website was designed with you in mind. It has an easier than ever navigation and a crisp, simple layout so you can find all the sound analysis and careful commentary that you've come to expect from us. Browse new features that make finding your favorite resources easier than ever. As always, it's our goal to equip you, our fellow Christians, with the confidence, clear thinking and courage you need for every encounter you have as a Christian Ambassador. Our new website is just one way we're fulfilling that goal, allowing you to access the resources you need in a new and improved way. So visit str.org and keep coming back to discover new podcasts, articles and videos each and every day.
- [22:23]
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Would you like a Stand to Reason speaker to speak at your church or event? Greg Allen, Tim John and I, Robby Lashua are available both in person and online. Just email bookingstr.org to schedule us today we can address a wide array of topics from bioethics, gender issues in science to theology, philosophy, and how to respond to other worldviews, all from a biblical perspective. Whether it's a Sunday sermon, Zoom conference or YouTube Live event, our skilled and engaging speakers can be there either physically or virtually, with the goal of equipping Christians to effectively influence the culture for Christ. To read our bios and learn more about the topics we cover, visit str.org then email bookingstr.org to schedule. Greg, Alan, Tim, John, or me, Robbie today.
- [23:29]
A
All right, back to our open mic calls here. And this next question is one I get a lot and it's one of the hardest to answer. All right, let's hear from Tom and he has a question about apathetic people. Tom.
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F
Hey Greg, Tom Poynter here. A question came to you as to what is the most difficult part of Christianity to defend or explain to people. And I'd love to hear your comments on one that you didn't touch on that I've encountered in my circles from my tennis partners, my climbing buddies, the guys that I fish with. We, we have a lot to talk about as far as our extracurriculars. But I found that while most of my non Christians friends would claim a belief in God or a higher power, God just isn't on their radar. It's not part of really who they are, their identity. For us believers, our faith in Christ, it. It shapes every aspect of, of how we live and how we think. But for, for my friends, it just seems that, that God could maybe be characterized as like one of many folders on the desktop of their computer life that, that they can click on and open up when they deem necessary and then just simply close that window the rest of the time. Whereas for us, well, I mean God's the operating system and I like to call my friends apatheists. They're just simply apathetic toward God. They don't see or feel their need for God or forgiveness. And I've shared the gospel with them after developing the relationship to the appropriate point and the response is always positive. You know, that's great, Tom, I'm happy for you, but I'm not really sure how to proceed and help them to see that everybody needs the Lord. I'm sure that they're all of the opinion that they're generally good people and, and that they're no Hitlers. But if you have said they're not Mother Teresa either. So how would you deal with friends in this situation? Probably, maybe A diet theist, but no real relationship with the Lord. I'd love to hear your response. Thanks, Greg. Blessings.
- [25:48]
A
Have a good day.
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F
Bye Bye.
- [25:49]
A
Thank you, Tom. Gee, I'm frustrated because I always want to give a useful response to hard questions, but this is one of the hardest ones for me to do. So I can work with people who disagree with me and then give me the reasons why they think I'm wrong. That's the foundation for interaction because then I can, at least with my temperament, my general approach and everything, I'm comfortable with saying, okay, well, let's talk about that. And then I could offer the reasons why I don't think they're right and reasons why I think I'm right. And I use the tactical approach and all of that. But I'm at home in that environment. I'm not at home in an environment where you communicate something about Christianity to them and they say, well, good, good. Well, what's good about it? I'm thinking I don't always know how to address it, although I might ask that question. But I know what's going on. So, you know, I'd be asking a question I probably know the answer to, though it might be good to ask it and hear how they proceed and maybe there'll be an opening. But the reason that they're saying good is they mean. And you just mentioned this, Tom. Good for you. That's good for you. I'm glad you found something that you like. Okay, now what this communicates to me right off the bat is that these are. These are people that are not looking for what they need, they are looking for what they want and they don't want that. And a need and a one are very, very different things. I shared an anecdote in the, I think the very first chapter of the tactics book, and it came from the wife of my discipler. Her name was Kathy. And actually both Kathy and her husband Craig were very actively involved in my discipleship, my early years as a Christian. But one of the things she said is, she said, you know, in John 10, Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice. And in other words, this is an accurate understanding of what Jesus had in mind there. Most people have an inaccurate understanding. They're thinking about hearing the voice of God as part of a Christian way of life. No, he was talking about something else. He was talking about the gospel going forth and the Holy Spirit working in a person's heart so that they respond to it. Okay? And so Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give them eternal life. Note the sequence. And of course, he's talking to Jews who are not responding. They certainly could hear him, his physical voice, but he says, you don't hear me because you're not my sheep. And what Kathy said is, when I'm talking to people and God is working on them, sometimes you can just notice that his sheep lift their head is the way she put it. Some sheep lift their head, the rest just go on eating grass. It was great. It was a great extension of the metaphor that Jesus was using about the role of the Holy Spirit working in the lives of non Christians. And eventually in the case of those that are his sheep, however you want to cast that out theologically, eventually those that are his that the Father has given to him, come to him. Okay? So that had a great impact on me. And there's a certain sense in which I can talk to somebody and the response that I hear from them lets me know whether they are lifting their head in a certain sense hearing the shepherd's voice, that the Holy Spirit is doing something that gets their attention or they just shrug it off and just keep eating grass. And the that's good for you response, in my view, is just eating grass. And so if that's the case, I've got nothing more to say to them. Now. It doesn't mean I can't continue in the conversation because you never know what's going to happen. But I'll tell you what, when my younger brother Mark became a Christian while I was still a student at Michigan State University in the early 70s, 1970-72, he talked to me about Christ and I responded to Mark, oh, that's good. It was a brush off. And it was a brush off because I wasn't going there. I was not interested. I had my life to live. I, I had a girlfriend, I had a great thing going in Michigan and, you know, everything was fine with me. Didn't need Jesus, been there, done that. I thought. It wasn't until I moved to California and I was no longer involved in that relationship. Not my choice, hers. And he was also in California, that the circumstances had changed for me and my ears were more open and I lifted my head when I heard the shepherd's voice, so to speak, through the witness of my brother Mark. And so when I'm engaging people and they just show no interest at all, I'm not going to keep pursuing them. That's just my style. Some people might be more aggressive and God could use that too, but I'm more or less Looking for the person who's looking for me. And I can initiate conversations with people. And they might say, oh, yeah, well, I'm spiritual, but not religious. I might ask some questions about what do they mean by that? In one case, I said, well, yeah, but of course you're spiritual. God made you that way so you could know him. I made that statement, just tossed that out. Didn't really go anywhere, as it turned out. I was on my way to an operating room when it happened. That lady was sticking needles in my arm. So I wasn't long for this conscious world, but that was something I said, just trying to leave something behind. But a lot of times it's just as you described, Tom, that this. They're not interested. They're interested in other things. They're distracted by lots of things in their life. Now, what often happens is for that person who is not interested now, there may be a time when they are interested later. And a lot of times that's when tragedy or difficulty or hardships befall them. Now, if you're still close by, that's a time when you can be there to help, to encourage, to pray, and to then communicate more about the truth about the nature of reality. There's only a way out. There's only one way out, I should say. And that's the one way. That's Jesus. We all need him. We're not always aware of it. Sometimes we fill our lives with all kinds of distractions. And this is especially true of rich people. Rich people have lots of ways to. They can distract themselves and not face the real underlying reality of life. One thing you might ask, and just occurred to me when I was thinking about your question, is if you have these people that are kind of theistic, yeah, they believe in God, but it's not, you know, they're not going on that folder, as you pointed out. You might just ask him. Wait, do you think that's true? The thing that you just told me about God existing or whatever, do you think he really does? He does, actually. Is that a fact? Sometimes if you say. If you ask, is that true? They're thinking, is it true? For me, that's the relativistic version. So this is why it might be good to emphasize the words differently. Do you think it's really true? It's actually so that the existence of God is a fact. Now, if that's the case, if they think maybe they don't know it, but they really think, well, if you think that there is a God, then do you think it's possible he has something to say about the way you live your life. Do you think it's possible that might be the most important thing you could ever think about? I mean, that might be an angle. Let's see what happens with apathetic people who are self satisfied for the moment. That was me at Michigan State University, 1970-72. I was largely self satisfied. Now there was an angst underneath it all. And I have some things that I wrote back then that are reflections of that. And I think this is true of everyone. Who is it Augustine or Pascal? They both made comments about a God shaped vacuum or whatever. You know, I think Augustus was our hearts are restless. How does he put it? Are restless for you and they don't rest until they find their rest in you. Or something like that. Obviously he said it much better than I just characterized it. But you get the point. There's this hunger and yearning that's in us all and we find false idols of sorts to try to fill that need and it doesn't ultimately satisfy. Now, we may keep trying the rest of our life, but sometimes we come to our senses. The shepherd's voice goes out through the witness of some faithful Christian and we lift our heads and that's when things change. So, Tom, this is a frustrating circumstance. I've run into it many times. I don't enjoy that circumstance. I'd rather have somebody engage me aggressively. All right. And disagree if they must. Or the best. You know, I have these questions and I've been wondering about this and I haven't had people to answer. And so there's a hungry soul that's looking for direction. And that is something I might be able to provide. But the apathetics all know I'm happy that God folders over there. I don't have any need to open that up now. Well, those are people. I'm just going to wait if they're in my life to a time when they will see that need. So incidentally, my dad was kind of like that. We had had a season, all the boys, because all three of the boys became Christians very close to each other. And my dad, he didn't want anything to do with it. But this was like back in the 70s. And then, you know, 20 years later in the 90s, oh, almost 2000s, God got him and not through us, through a different means. But there was a radical transformation. Now, it was just a year before he died and he entered the kingdom, you know, naked and smelling of smoke, as it were. But nevertheless, he made into the kingdom. You never know who God is going to use or what you might say at any given time that will bear fruit later on. So do what you can, and then entrust that person to the Lord. Pray for them, and then if they're in your lives on an ongoing basis, wait until the other shoe falls, until they realize this life is not giving them what they expect, and then you can be there for them. All right, let's see what we got here. That was Tom. All right, here's one from Jamie about starting an outpost. Jamie, I'd love to hear what you have to say.
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G
Hi, Greg. My name is Jamie. A couple of weeks ago, you said you couldn't find any believers north of Pennsylvania. I just wanted to let you know I'm one of them. I'm calling from New York.
- [38:53]
A
That's great.
- [38:55]
G
I was calling because I have a question for you. My background is I have a passion for apologetics. I'm taking apologetics classes at Liberty University. And it's just something that I just love, and I have a desire to help people defend my faith. And I asked my pastor if I could start an apologetics home group, and I was told only if it was for other women. No men, no youth. And I agreed, and I said that was fine. But then I showed him the video on San Teresa about starting an outpost, because that is something that I would really love to do. And he told me no. Now, he didn't come right out and say, because I'm a female, but he referenced first Timothy 2:12. I tried to use Priscilla, but obviously he said that her husband was over her. And my husband's just really busy, and I don't think that he would be okay with pretending like he would do something just so I would be able to.
- [39:51]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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G
And I even offered that it was possibly just the culture of the time period. And his response was that we can't change scripture to try to appease the feministic culture that we find ourselves in. So I was just wondering if you had any guidance on how I should proceed or maybe something that I could say, like, biblically about how, you know, I would be able to start an outpost even though I am a female. Are you even okay with females doing it? Honestly, I guess I'm not really sure. Maybe I should just be submissive and just sit back and do nothing and just learn. But I appreciate you taking my call, and I look forward to hearing you. Thank you.
- [40:32]
A
Wow. Okay, Jamie, thank you. I feel for you. I think my own theological understanding of First Timothy Chapter 2, the verses that you have cited do not entail the kind of restriction that you're facing right now with your pastor. However, he is your pastor and from what you just told me, he has very, very strong opinions about what this means and how it applies in your circumstance. I don't think it's going to be at all helpful to try to, in a sense, argue him out of his view, give an alternate view. I don't think it is something that's just restricted to a period of time there. I think something else is going on. But nevertheless, many pastors who hold this particular view of the 1 Timothy chapter 2, passage, I do not allow a woman to speak or exercise authority over a man. Will allow the woman to be involved if she's under the authority of a man. Okay, now this would be your husband and you've already explored that option. It's not going to work because your husband's not going to be actively involved in the group. And I understand that. What may be the case? I don't know. It depends on your parents particular view. And you may have, you know, run out of grace on this one too. In other words, you may have knocked on his door a couple of times and he's, okay, I'm done with it. I've already said my thing. I don't want to hear about this again. You just have to decide. But it may be that you could say, can I partner with someone else at the church who is a male, or can I lead this group under the leadership, the headship of another member of the church, say even a pastor who can be the head of this, though I lead the group. See, some churches will allow that. They'll say, okay, what Paul is getting at here is you can't have a lone ranger female teaching all this stuff. But if she is under authority in the church, a male in the church, then she can do lots of different things. Doesn't mean the male is doing the things she can do that as long as she is accountable to that authority. So that's another angle that might satisfy his concern. If he wants a man to lead it, then maybe you can find a male of kindred spirits who could be the actual leader of the group. I know your heart isn't doing a group, but I don't think that means that you have to be the principal over the group necessarily. If your pastor won't even allow that, then that's just out of the question. Even though I, I disagree with his point of view, I do agree that he's an authority over you in this capacity as the pastor. And so you need to respect his point of view and see if there's a workaround. And one workaround, I already mentioned that you are officially under another male in the church who oversees you as the group's leader. And the group would be mixed, males and female. And by the way, you're a facilitator anyway, as far as I understand the way Robby designed it and all the instructions that the leader is a facilitator, it isn't necessarily the teacher. Obviously these leaders are in a kind of a discipleship role, which is great. Glad for that. And in most cases that's the way it works out. But it seems to me it could be that you could be a facilitator guiding the discussion about apologetics, going through some of the classes that we have at Stand to Reason Stru. And these are the things that can be used. And so you may appeal to your pastor and say, well, I won't be teaching Scripture. Does that make a difference? We're going to be going through apologetics kind of things, see if that makes a difference. The third option, the first is that you have. You do it, but the pastor is over you, officially a pastor. Second one is that you get a male leader for the group you want to start and you let him lead it. And you could be an assistant to that, but he is over the group, not you. And then you could have a mixed group. And the third option is that you have a group of women. Now we have a team member, a staffer at Standard Reason who has that. She's got a women's group, she leads an outpost, and it's all women. And by the way, that's great. That's appropriate in that the ladies need this kind of training too, and we are underrepresented. There are more guys than gals that. That are pursuing these things, more gals than they used to be. But we still, we still could have more. And if you could lead a group like that and you could muster up a group of just women, that would be great. So those are the three options that I have for you. I know it's an awkward. It's an awkward circumstance for you and frustrating. I've heard one person say the workers are few and divided by two. I do think there are appropriate biblical limitations on women leadership in the church, but I think that's in chapter three, not in chapter two. Chapter three, in my view, makes it really clear that pastors and elders, I should say elders should be men. And pastors are de facto elders. All right. And so therefore the pastors of a church, that would be the head pastor, the one in charge, overseeing, calling the shots like an elder would, needs to be a man. But that's chapter three, not chapter two. I'm not going to go into the details of my view on chapter two because your pastor doesn't hold it. So it may be that you have some options that I've just offered and I hope it works out. But it's clear that your pastor's role is one of being a shepherd over you. And your responsibility, at least as far as we've just described it, is to be responsive to his leadership in that. And that's in, among other places. First Peter, chapter five. I, I, I think so. There you go. All right, Jamie, let me see what else I got here. I have. Okay, let's, let's we have a question from Anonymous that I'm very interested in, in dealing with. So let's hear what Anonymous has to say.
- [47:45]
H
Hey Greg, I've got a question.
- [47:49]
A
About.
- [47:51]
H
God rescuing us and us not despising his discipline and things of that nature. I'm going to try to keep it brief.
- [48:01]
A
So.
- [48:04]
H
I know that God is sovereign in the sense that he just has control over all things. Not that we don't have free will, but he is in control of all things and that he works all things out for the good of those who love Him. He's all knowing. I know that. And that we have freedom. Kevin DeYoung in his book Just Do Something describes it as personal responsibility. He doesn't say free will, but he does say personal responsibility. So recognizing that we have personal responsibility and further, I believe that we do have free will and God is all knowing and God is gracious. God is good and God allows things to happen to us and allows us to do things that may not be good in order to bring about a greater good. When we are going through something difficult, how do we know if it's discipline from God, as in God is permitting it to happen so that we can grow from it versus it not being from God, and it's something that we just need to put away, put aside. And if we do try to resist something, a difficulty, we do try to resist doing something in a particular way for a particular difficulty, then.
- [49:34]
A
How do.
- [49:34]
H
We make sure we don't fall into the trap of falling into something like Friedrich Nietzsche's will to power type thing or Machiavelli's taking fortune by force. How do we make sure. We don't fall into the trap that we're just going to command our own destinies. And how do we make sure we don't become our own authority? And what is discipline from God and what is not? And what is something we need to wait for God's rescue or we need to rescue ourselves, get ourselves out of a situation with the tools that God has given us. Thank you.
- [50:12]
A
Wow. Okay. I took this because I think it's a real important question. And I too hold to a very robust understanding of the sovereignty of God. And just the point here in Kevin DeYoung's comment that we have personal responsibility. If we didn't have the freedom to exercise that responsibility, we couldn't have the responsibility. So that we have personal responsibility entails the notion of the ability to do it, to respond, to make choices. So I think there's. We definitely make choices. We have free will. I don't want to get in a big discussion about free will because I think a lot of people do not think very carefully about the notion. But for the purposes of our conversation here, yes, we have free will. We have choices that we can make. And that's the question you have. What choices are appropriate in a difficult circumstance? And is the circumstance something that God is causing to happen or just allow to happen and then we kind of roll with it? Or is this something that we have to push against and resist and try to solve it ourselves? And, and how. How are we then not vulnerable to a Machiavellian or, or a Nietzschean? I don't even know if that's a word, but like Nietzsche kind of view that you're concerned about. Okay, so I don't think this is as hard as you make it to be because all of us encounter these kinds of things. And I have often in my life, and I've just say candidly, there's been a lot of hardship in my life. And when I talk to non Christian groups, I tell them I'm a follower of Jesus for 50 years, but it hasn't been easy. And so. But it's been reality is what I say. All right, you. I think you're making a broad reference to Hebrews chapter 12, where it says that God disciplines us as a good father and all discipline, the text says, does not seem to be joyful, but sorrowful. It's a bummer, but afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. So let me explain how this, how I kind of try to keep things in balance. First of all, I'm a Christian and I, and I'm like consciously aware that God is God and I am not. So I'm not vulnerable to a, a kind of a will to power like Nietzsche or, you know, some kind of Machiavellian authority trip that I'm on. Rather, I know that God is God and I'm under Him and that however I live, I need to live in a way that acknowledges that relations, relationship and is, is obedient to what I know about God and what he wants for me. So I, I'm not falling into this. Even though I'm going to describe the importance of taking positive action in circumstances, to me this is nothing akin to the kind of errors that you just described and are concerned about. I am taking positive action when I'm able to as a Christian in God's world. Now, the circumstances that I face, did God allow that to happen? Yes, of course. That's. Look, the idea of God's sovereignty is that he, he, either he is, he has. I want to be careful all the words that I use because sometimes they can be misunderstood. But I'm just going to say that he is in control over everything and that whatever happens, he either causes to happen or allows to happen. That covers everything. So there's nothing that happens to you that doesn't first pass through his hands. Now that's the point that's really critical to know if you are experiencing difficulty there in hardship and whatever these challenges, God might have initiated that thing, or he may have let circumstances take their course and allowed it to happen. But in any event, it is something that happened with his knowledge and with his permission. Now that doesn't mean that you are therefore restricted and restrained from doing anything as if now you'd be fighting against God. You can do whatever is morally appropriate in the circumstance. And there's a lot of things. Look, you could be in a bad relationship. Let's just say you're in a bad marriage. And there are lots of bad marriages even among Christians, hard ones, difficult ones, and where there's not a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment, which is why people who get divorced, even Christians, they don't get divorced. Real Christians, that is, people who following the Lord, don't get as divorced as often as non Christians. Nevertheless, it's hard. Okay, so then if you cannot change those circumstances, and many times you cannot, then the issue becomes how do I need to live in this circumstance, if nothing ever changes, to bring honor to God and to live as I ought, as in my case, as a good husband, is there discipline? Yeah, God is He's letting me go through the hardship and I'm just speaking theoretically here. He's letting me go through this hardship so that I can be better equipped as a child of his. It's a discipline. Now does that mean I can't try to change it? No, it doesn't mean that I can try to change it if I do so in morally acceptable ways with the right attitude. But a lot of things I can't. And this is true across the board for all of us and many things in life. We can't change the circumstances. Now what? Now we look at what we can do and for the most part we can't change. We can't change and control other people. We can only manage ourselves. And that's the question we need to ask what is it here that I need to do before God, to be right before him in this circumstance? Not to manipulate something else, but to satisfy God, not to satisfy others. And there for me then. Sorry, there for me then the issue isn't like is this from God or not? Do I fight it or I give in or whatever. No, I do what I can to ameliorate, improve on the circumstances in morally acceptable ways. Understanding that it's all under God and everything that I'm going through is him making me more like Jesus. Tough lesson. I hope that helps. Greg Koukl here for stand a reason. Give him heaven friends. Bye bye. It.