Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast

Host: Greg Koukl
Episode: What Would You Say to an Apathetic Person?
Date: February 19, 2025

Brief Overview

In this episode, Greg Koukl hosts an open-mic segment where he answers listener questions on a range of challenging topics related to Christian life and apologetics. The episode’s main theme revolves around clear thinking as Christians, responding graciously and incisively to common objections, and especially, how to engage with people who are apathetic about God or faith issues. Questions include the severity of Old Testament punishments, navigating conflicts with difficult family members, witnessing to apathetic "apatheists," the role of women in apologetics within the church, and discerning God’s discipline in tough life circumstances.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Old Testament Punishments and “All Israel Will Hear and Be Afraid”

• Listener: Kenneth ([02:28])
• Summary: Kenneth asks about severe punishments described in Deuteronomy (e.g., stoning for idolatry or rebellious sons), questioning if these were truly carried out or merely meant to frighten.
• Koukl’s Response ([03:49]):
  • There’s no textual evidence that such punishments were never carried out, but absence of record does not equal absence of occurrence.
  • Laws unenforced have no deterrent effect, comparing to modern examples (e.g., non-prosecution of misdemeanors in California).
  • The function of the law was to punish evil and deter wrongdoing; lack of enforcement undercuts this.
  • Public executions for idolatry did occur (e.g., 1 Kings 18, Elijah with prophets of Baal).
  • Notable Quote:
    “If the law is on the books but it's not enforced, then the law in the books has no effect. And I think the same thing is true about these laws and their punishments that we find in the Mosaic Law…” – Greg Koukl ([05:13])

2. Dealing with Bullies, Justice, and Jesus’ Commands to Forgive

• Listener: John ([11:43])
• Summary: John’s family is embroiled in a legal dispute with a sibling who has a long history of bullying and betrayal. He seeks guidance on balancing justice-seeking with Christian commands like forgiving, not judging, and “leaving your offering at the altar.”
• Koukl’s Response ([13:45]):
  • Seeking justice is appropriate; government is instituted for punishment of evil and protection of the just.
  • Biblical appeals to “removing the log from your eye” and reconciling before worship are addressed to those at fault—not the injured party.
  • Paul’s instructions about not taking another believer to court (1 Corinthians) apply specifically to intra-church disputes resolved within the church body.
  • In this described scenario, it is right to seek legal justice if you are the injured party.
  • Notable Quote:
    “If the wounded party here is not at fault, I see no reason why that person can't pursue legal action that's appropriate for the circumstances.” – Greg Koukl ([17:35])
  • Notable Moment: Koukl clarifies, “So in both of these cases, the comments of Jesus are being addressed to the injuring party…the party in the wrong…not the injured party.” ([16:05])

3. Reaching Apathetic Friends (“Apatheists”)

• Listener: Tom ([23:50])
• Summary: Tom struggles with sharing the gospel with friends who are “apatheists”—they claim some vague belief in God but simply don’t care, and never feel a personal need for Christ. How can we reach people who are simply unmotivated?
• Koukl’s Response ([25:49]):
  • Engaging with apathy is among the hardest challenges in evangelism; debating with disagreement is actually easier because it opens dialogue.
  • Sometimes, people just “keep eating grass”—unmoved by the gospel—until circumstance or suffering provokes receptivity.
  • Relevant metaphor: “My sheep hear my voice.” Some sheep lift their heads, responding to the Shepherd; others just continue as before.
  • Persistent, forced arguments generally do not help; better to be present, pray, and wait for moments of need or crisis when hearts may be more open.
  • One tactical suggestion: gently ask, “Do you think that’s really true?” or “Is that actually so, or just something you believe?” to get them to think beyond relativism.
  • Personal story: Koukl himself once brushed off Christian witness, only to revisit it when circumstances changed.
  • Notable Quotes:
    • “When I'm engaging people and they just show no interest at all, I'm not going to keep pursuing them. That's just my style. Some people might be more aggressive and God could use that too, but I'm more or less looking for the person who's looking for me.” ([28:38])
    • “You never know who God is going to use or what you might say at any given time that will bear fruit later on. So do what you can, and then entrust that person to the Lord. Pray for them…” ([37:14])
  • Memorable Analogy: God as the “operating system” versus just a folder on someone’s desktop that they open when convenient. ([23:50])

4. Women Leading Apologetics Groups in Church

• Listener: Jamie ([38:43])
• Summary: Jamie, passionate about apologetics, wants to start a group in her church. Her pastor restricts this to women only, citing 1 Timothy 2:12 and male authority. She seeks advice on possible, biblically-sound options.
• Koukl’s Response ([40:32]):
  • Koukl personally interprets 1 Timothy 2 as not requiring this level of restriction but affirms the pastor’s leadership role.
  • Suggests three possible options:
    1. Appeal to lead under the official authority of a male church leader who would oversee (even if not actively involved).
    2. Recruit a like-minded man to serve as group leader/facilitator, with her as assistant.
    3. Start a women-only apologetics group, which is valuable and impactful in itself.
  • Emphasizes respect for pastoral authority while exploring these alternatives.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Even though I, I disagree with his point of view, I do agree that he's an authority over you in this capacity as the pastor. And so you need to respect his point of view and see if there's a workaround.” ([41:24])

5. Discerning God’s Discipline versus Personal Agency in Suffering

• Listener: Anonymous ([47:45])
• Summary: This caller wonders: when facing hardship, is this God’s discipline, or just a circumstance I should seek to change? How do we avoid falling into self-sovereignty, à la Nietzsche or Machiavelli, versus rightly exercising free will?
• Koukl’s Response ([50:11]):
  • Affirms God’s sovereignty over all events; whatever happens occurs with His knowledge and permission.
  • Christians have personal responsibility and free will; making appropriate choices—including efforts to improve circumstances—is not in conflict with trust in God.
  • The test: Are you acting morally, with the right attitude, and in recognition of God’s authority?
  • Sometimes, suffering can’t be changed, and in those cases, focus shifts to “how can I live rightly and honor God in this situation?”
  • Acting to improve or alleviate suffering—if done in a God-honoring way—is fully compatible with biblical faith and not an assertion of personal dominance or will to power.
  • Notable Quote:
    “You can do whatever is morally appropriate in the circumstance. And there's a lot of things...the circumstances that I face, did God allow that to happen? Yes, of course. That's...the idea of God's sovereignty is that...whatever happens, he either causes to happen or allows to happen. That covers everything. So there's nothing that happens to you that doesn't first pass through his hands.” ([50:44])
  • Conclusion: Seek to do what you can, as morally permitted, but always under God’s authority and with recognition of His sovereignty and purposes in discipline.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Apathetic Listeners:

  • “The that's good for you response, in my view, is just eating grass.” – Greg Koukl ([27:10])
  • “Sometimes we come to our senses. The shepherd's voice goes out...and we lift our heads and that's when things change.” ([33:02])

• On Pursuing Justice:

  • “There's nothing wrong with going to law for a just cause on your own behalf. And from what I just heard, that's the case.” ([18:45])

• On Suffering and Sovereignty:

  • “It is something that happened with his knowledge and with his permission. Now that doesn't mean that you are therefore restricted and restrained from doing anything…” ([50:47])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Deuteronomy & Punishments: 02:28 – 11:43
• Justice, Family Disputes, and Biblical Commands: 11:43 – 21:35
• Engaging Apathetic/Apatheist Friends: 23:50 – 38:43
• Women Leading in Apologetics (Church Context): 38:43 – 47:45
• Discerning God’s Discipline in Suffering: 47:45 – end

Tone & Approach

Greg Koukl’s tone remains gracious, candid, and practical throughout. He encourages thoughtfulness, humility, and submission to both Scriptural authority and church structures—while also advocating for clear thinking, tact, and wisdom when engaging skeptics or difficult church environments. He often illustrates points with memorable metaphors and shares personal anecdotes, lending warmth and relatability to his answers.

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode is a rich Q&A session where Greg Koukl tackles nuanced questions about biblical law, seeking justice, religious apathy, gender roles in ministry, and how to interpret suffering in the Christian life. With humility and depth, he provides practical pathways forward for each situation, while underscoring the importance of clear thinking, faithfulness, and gracious interaction—whether with apathetic friends, church leadership, or life's hardest moments.