S2E28 Polygamy, Kind of...That’s Part of It Part 1

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: Season 2, Episode 28 - “Polygamy, Kind of… That’s Part of It Part 1”

Release Date: July 14, 2022
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Guest: Professor Richard Leduc
Podcast Description: Standard of Truth aims to help Latter-Day Saints understand their history and strengthen their faith through historical insights into the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

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Introduction and Academic Anecdotes (00:01 - 05:39)

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat kicks off the episode by welcoming listeners and introducing Professor Richard Leduc as his co-host. The conversation begins with light-hearted banter about their challenging experiences with a particularly strict and demanding history professor during their college years.

• Dr. Dirkmaat Shares:
  “[00:01] …a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations, and miracles.”

• Professor Leduc Recounts:
  “[00:38] …we’re gonna talk about polygamy a little bit.”

Their mutual recounting of the professor’s exacting standards and harsh grading policies sets a humorous yet relatable tone, illustrating the duo’s longstanding friendship and shared academic struggles.

• Notable Quote:
  • Professor Leduc [03:13]: “The class was brutal.”

This segment serves to humanize the hosts and establish a rapport with listeners by sharing personal stories of academic perseverance.

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Transition to Polygamy and Historical Context (05:39 - 19:25)

After reminiscing about their academic past, Dr. Dirkmaat steers the conversation toward the episode's main topic: polygamy within the early Church.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [04:14]: “But anyway, this... must have fallen asleep...”

He elaborates on the complexity and multifaceted nature of polygamy, emphasizing that due to its intricate history and numerous perspectives, the podcast will only be able to cover a portion of it.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [16:22]: “...the topic we're going to talk about today touches on plural marriage.”

The discussion then shifts to a listener email from Stephen, inquiring about an 1831 supposed revelation of Joseph Smith concerning polygamy. This revelation, purportedly recorded by W.W. Phelps in an 1861 letter to Brigham Young, suggests that early Church leaders were instructed to take Native American wives to ensure the virtuousness of their posterity.

• Notable Quote:
  • Stephen’s Email [19:22]: “…reportedly includes the noteworthy comment about how the early elders were supposed to take unto themselves wives of the Lamanites and Nephites…”

Dr. Dirkmaat and Professor Leduc delve into the authenticity and reliability of this alleged revelation, highlighting its absence from the official Joseph Smith Papers and questioning the credibility due to its sole attribution to Phelps.

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Analyzing the Purported 1831 Revelation (19:25 - 58:40)

Dr. Dirkmaat meticulously analyzes the text of the supposed 1831 revelation, pointing out inconsistencies and red flags that undermine its authenticity.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [20:41]: “...this is not a featured document in what would have been documents, Volume one documents, Volume two of the Joseph Smith Papers.”

He examines the document's structure, noting that Phelps claimed the revelation wasn’t written down at the time, yet his transcription includes versification and formal language typical of genuine revelations. This discrepancy raises doubts about its authenticity.

• Notable Quote:
  • Dr. Dirkmaat [48:26]: “...this is not written like it's the substance. This is written.”

The hosts discuss how Phelps’ memories, written years later, may have been influenced by subsequent events, such as the onset of the Civil War, which aligns with the content of the revelation. This retrospective influence calls into question the reliability of the document.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [51:05]: “...the coming of the American Civil War is a miraculous thing…”

Professor Leduc shares a personal anecdote about an Elder Perry speech, contrasting genuine contemporary records with retrospective accounts, further emphasizing the challenges historians face in authenticating such documents.

• Professor Leduc [26:49]: “It was about 10 years ago and he came and spoke and I've heard an apostle speak live maybe one other time.”

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Historical Methodology and Source Reliability (58:40 - End)

Dr. Dirkmaat outlines the rigorous criteria used by historians to determine the authenticity of historical documents, comparing the purported revelation to the standards applied in compiling the Joseph Smith Papers. He underscores the importance of contemporary documentation and the pitfalls of relying on secondhand accounts.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [24:12]: “It was 40 years later.”

He employs a hypothetical exercise, encouraging listeners to attempt transcribing a recent sermon verbatim to illustrate the improbability of accurately recalling such detailed accounts without contemporaneous records.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [26:41]: “...write down word for word what the youth speaker in your ward said last Sunday.”

Through this, he reinforces the necessity of critical evaluation of sources, especially when singular claims lack corroborative evidence.

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Conclusion and Upcoming Topics (58:40 - End)

As the episode draws to a close, Dr. Dirkmaat and Professor Leduc acknowledge the complexities surrounding the topic of polygamy and the challenges in addressing it comprehensively within the podcast format. They tease further exploration of the purported revelation in future episodes, promising deeper insights into its implications and historical context.

• Dr. Dirkmaat [61:36]: “Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast…”

They encourage listeners to stay tuned for the continuation of the discussion, promising to unravel more facets of polygamy and its historical underpinnings in subsequent parts.

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Key Takeaways

1. Authenticity of Historical Documents: The episode emphasizes the importance of contemporary documentation in validating historical revelations, highlighting the dubious nature of the 1831 polygamy revelation attributed solely to W.W. Phelps.

2. Challenges in Historical Interpretation: Dr. Dirkmaat and Professor Leduc illustrate the complexities historians face when reconciling retrospective accounts with established historical records, especially concerning sensitive topics like polygamy.

3. Critical Evaluation of Sources: Listeners are encouraged to approach historical documents with a critical eye, understanding the potential biases and inaccuracies inherent in secondhand accounts.

4. Ongoing Exploration: The hosts commit to a thorough examination of polygamy within the Church's history, acknowledging its multifaceted nature and the necessity for careful scholarly analysis.

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Notable Quotes

• Professor Leduc [03:13]: “The class was brutal.”
• Dr. Dirkmaat [16:22]: “...the topic we're going to talk about today touches on plural marriage.”
• Dr. Dirkmaat [24:12]: “It was 40 years later.”
• Dr. Dirkmaat [48:26]: “...this is not written like it's the substance. This is written.”

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Conclusion

In this engaging episode of Standard of Truth, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Professor Richard Leduc navigate the intricate and often contentious subject of polygamy within the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Through personal anecdotes, rigorous historical analysis, and critical examination of purported revelations, they provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges in uncovering and interpreting historical truths. The episode sets the stage for deeper exploration in future installments, inviting listeners to join them in unraveling the complexities of polygamy’s role in Church history.

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations, and miracles.

Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard Leduc.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. In this week's podcast, we're gonna talk about polygamy a little bit.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Not really.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it season 38 already?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Season 38, the People Cry out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't care how much the people cry out. I don't think we're gonna be doing well.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So it's an impossible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like we're being. I'm being forced to do something on polygamy against my will at this point.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So the. There. There was a specific thing that we're going to talk about, and polygamy is part of that thing. And so polygamy will be brought up, but we won't be.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard and I had a professor in college that we took the same class mainly because. Why, actually, why in the world were you taking? I don't. You told me. An upper division class.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I was a biology major and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And he washed out of that. I just show everyone else, for those of you listening who are thinking, what level of biologist is doctor?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I did watch out on that, but. So you. You said I had to take a. I don't know, a certain number of basic whatever classes, but.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But it wasn't upper division.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It was a terrible class.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

War history.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

You recommended to me.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What kind of a horrible person am I?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

The worst.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Are we even friends? It was the worst class that I've ever.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It was absolutely brutal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

A great professor.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Oh, he was great. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Very smart, but he very difficult. So difficult. So hard a grader that I got my first paper back from him, and I was pretty disappointed because I got a 90% on it, and I was like, geez, I really worked hard on this. And so I asked the guy next to me who was a senior because I was a freshman taking this class, because it was an upper division history class. I asked the guy next to me who was a senior, and I was like, hey, how'd you do on. He's like, oh, man. All right, I guess. I mean, I got a 70. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. He's like, what'd you get? Yeah, I mean, similar. Yeah, you know, because at that point you don't want to, you know, but in fact, I remember when I was meeting for graduation at Utah State, the. The head. The department chair was going through my transcript. When he saw that I'd gotten an A in this professor's class, he was like, oh, you really are ready to graduate. You got an A in the class.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, the class was brutal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why did I tell you? Because I could help you through it or something.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

You probably. I think you wrote all my papers. No, the. The thing is, is that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, only half of them. No.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No. So we. We took actually several classes together. We took several history. I took a couple history classes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You recommended multiple philosophy.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, those. Those classes were a blast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Religious philosophy classes. Everything I know I learned with Richard in the.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

The philosophy classes were. Were a blast. But anyway, so this. You do a. So this is the thing. This will be funny to no one except for me.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's the list. So essentially. That's right. But you just described is this podcast. We're going to laugh about something that people are like. I mean, I guess, can we go back to townships? I mean, that was more entertaining than what they're doing now.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But anyway, so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so he was very exacting and I mean, he was. He was terrifying. Honestly, I feel like I'm telling too much of a story now. But you know what? This is. This is just for you guys to sit back. You're on a commute. Just enjoy this.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

We're going to get to polygamy in.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

45 minutes, in 45 seasons. But anyway, I was terrified. I took his class when I was a freshman. I hadn't taken any other history class in college yet. And so he started the class by saying, this is a very difficult class. He was.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

He was always very.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Short. Eastern accent, right? He said, this is a very difficult class. If you are not a senior or an extremely talented junior, you need to drop the class right now. And I'm sitting there as a freshman, first class I've taken in college. And so I'm like. So I went up and I talked to him and I was like, I like to read history and stuff. I don't know what I said, but I'm sure it came across.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No, you were like one of the Little Rascals, like, rubbing your. With your hands in your pockets, shuffling.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Jeez, mister, do you think I could still take this class? And. And I said, I'm a freshman, but I really love Civil War history. I've studied it a lot. And he was like, you're a freshman. He rolled his eyes at me and said, good luck and then walked away. So that. But, but the reason why we bring him up. Wait, let me tell you one more story about it, okay? I. I'm sorry to everyone listening. Oh my gosh. Please just fast Forward to like 10 minutes in.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then you'll be in the middle and then Fast forward another 10 minutes and then throw your phone into a lake. And then we'll still not be on the topic when you get your phone back from that lake to give you an idea how scary he was. So again, now it's my, my second day of class. Second day of class. We were in this building that, that for those of you who went to Utah State, for those of you true Aggies out there.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

My wife's a true Aggie.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. What about you? I am not. How about that?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

How about that?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Can't you become a true Aggie because your wife is one?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, sure, like. But through marriage.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I think you have to.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I went. So I went to Utah State for two years. I went to every college in the greater Mountain West. Anyway, I've interrupted.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, please, go on. What other colleges have you failed out of?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I didn't fail out, I transferred. But yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, only one of them was because of the honor code. But the, this classroom, this, this building, Old Main. So you know Old Main, if you went to Utah State, if you don't, it's this super old building. As the name implies, it's right there in the name. It's a really old building. And so the air conditioning in it is non existent. I mean, I'm sure they say they have air conditioning, but if you're there for a summer term, it's scorching inside. And there was a student who came to class one day, the second day class, and made the mistake of reading a newspaper in the back of the class while this guy was lecturing. I, I thought that, that this guy must have like pulled a gun or something because the professor was lecturing. He's like. And that's why the north utilized the industrial heartland. And then he screamed, what is that? What is that? And so we all look. Are you reading a newspaper in my class? Get out. You have failed the class. You have failed. You just failed. Get out. Yeah. Terrifying. Okay. And so I was like, richard should take this class. No. So I told you that story so I could tell you this one. It was summer term. The classes were really long and it was really, really hot. Back then, Utah State was on A quarter system, which was just another way to torture you if you took a summer, if you took a summer term. And it was right after lunch. And I, again, I would love to tell everyone that I was studiously hitting the books every day and, you know, staying up late, just trying to. But what I had been doing is for the past week, we had been staying up till almost two in the morning every night, having Mario Kart tournaments in my, in my apartment, and Which I won. But, and so I came in and you all know what it's like when you're falling asleep. So I just eaten lunch. I had like four hours of sleep the night before. It was so hot in the room and I could feel myself falling asleep. Feel it? I feel it. I'm doing the head bob thing where your head kind of like goes forward and then you bring it back up and you like, you know, you whip lashes.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

The listeners of our podcast are very familiar with this.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All of you right now, you know how you're driving right now and your eyes are nodding off to the side that. And so I feel myself. So I'm doing every trick in the book to try to stay awake. It's, it's a two hour class. I'm like 30 minutes in and, and so I'm pinching myself, I'm biting my tongue. I am legitimately at one point taking a pen and jamming it into my hand, hoping that the pain will keep me awake because I just watched him throw a student out of class permanently for reading a newspaper. I can only imagine were I to fall asleep in that class that, you know, they, they'd be holding memorial services for me and this, this professor would be the one, you know, speaking at him. But at any rate, I try as I might, I must have fallen asleep. Now the way that we were sitting in the room, it was kind of a semi circle around the room. And I was on the second tier of desks with the wall right, right behind my head. And when I fell asleep, my head must have gone backward rather than forward. And so what awoke me was what the, the thunderous sound of my head slamming into the wall. It was so loud and so hard that it woke me up. And it just, you know, just, I don't know, I mean, I can't, you know, replicate it here in, in what we call a studio, but is really just a spare bedroom. And of course, he was on the other side of the classroom, thankfully. Whips around like he is ready to, he's ready to fail yet another student. And everybody Looks over and, you know, I can only credit the spirit with giving me the idea of what to do next, because everyone looked over at me, and so I just looked behind me like the sound had come from outside of them. What is going so. So I look behind me. Everyone looks. He's got daggers shooting out of his eyes. He sees us all looking at the wall behind me. And then he just goes back to lecturing. I. The only reason I'm here today, the only reason I got my degree was. Thankfully, he didn't realize. But we told you all those stories to tell you this one. First of all, I can't imagine why you took his class.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I can't either. I can't imagine why someone's still listening to this.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No one's listening to this. That's the best part. My mom's listening. If she can figure out how to download it, Rachel's listening. I think Ari gave up on us after we wouldn't pronounce Missouri the right way. I mean, but the. The way that he taught was. He was a great teacher. Look, I was terrified of him, but he was a phenomenal teacher. And the way he taught, though, was because he's a historian. The reality is, no matter what comment you ever made, it was never exactly right because it couldn't be. And so he did this in both of our classes every time anyone made a point. So if someone would raise their hand and say, so does that mean that Southerners during the war were deliberately holding cotton back so that they could cause the British to intervene because they needed Southern cotton? And he would get very contemplative. I mean, eyes would kind of. He'd relax back into himself, put his hands up to his. Up to his face, and he'd say, that's part of it. That's part of it. That's part.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

He would say that four or five times.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He would say, that's part of it to any comment that was ever made. Yeah, I mean, I remember making a comment about the religiosity of Abraham Lincoln because he had made a very big point that Abraham Lincoln wasn't a member of any, you know, denomination. Right. So. So he wasn't. You know, you weren't able to have the Presbyterians just get right behind him. And. And I. And I. I read in class the. The letter that. That he had written to this. This woman who had lost multiple children in the Civil War, where Abraham Lincoln, you know, references the Lord and hoping that the Lord would come for. Of course, you also have the. The second inaugural address Where Lincoln points out pretty clearly that, that, that it is possibly the judgments of God because of slavery that have caused the war to be so terrible. And so, you know, I brought this up as Lincoln's religiosity, you know, and, and he very, very contemplatively, you know, that's part of it. That's part of it. Part of it. It's part of it.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah. No, that's exactly it. It was, it was absolutely hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I still, I'm actually rethinking whether or not I'm a good person. If I suggested to.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Oh, there's no reason. Yeah, no, I've already rethought it and it. You're not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Next week our co host will be Angie, my wife. As Richard is no longer my friend. What's he. This is 21 years in the making. He realized, why did you have me take that class?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Probably the same reason I went back to go get my PhD. You're like, oh, you're going to love it. That's like a quote. Oh my gosh. Oh my. You're going to love it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I recall multiple conversations where I begged Richard, I pleaded with him, I said, richard, it will be the worst thing that you have ever done in your life.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

We've joked about this too. Like, it's like going on a mission, right? Like when you're getting ready to go on a mission, people who have been on missions are like, it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. And it's. You're gonna love it the most. It's the greatest experience of your life and it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. And then you get out on your mission, you're like, how come no one told me?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And you're gonna lie to me about this? This is the. I mean, because you know all you hear when someone tells the stories, right? Like there I was, my companion wanted to go back early to the apartment. I said, no, Elder, we're gonna finish knocking every door on this street. It was raining in my mission.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It rained twice a year, but it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Was raining in every story that you ever told about your mission. And we knocked on that last door with the light on, whole family was baptized. I mean, that's what you hear in every David A. Bedvar. Yeah, that's what you hear from everybody now. You converted an apostles family. Pretty sure you didn't. At any rate, the point is that, oh my goodness, I apologize to everybody. This is worse than the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. We're gonna do the Mexican War we have plans. We have plans to do some, some history related. The ones that are just history for those of you who are tired of talking about religion.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, well, so, yeah, no, that's the thing. So last, last week's podcast was about the 4th of July and how much early members of the church hated the country. And so now we're going to do a whole U.S. history, a bunch of episodes on U.S. history.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And you know that. I mean, obviously I love US history and we're going to talk about it, but the reason why I brought up that certain professor was there is so much about plural marriage. There are so many different aspects to it. There are so many different time periods, there are so many different people who practice it, that the reality is it's like trying to wrap your arms around a cloud. Right. You can't really ever do it because no matter what you try it, something escapes you. So we're not going to dive deep into it. But one of the questions we're going to respond to today, if there's any time left, you can tell I've deliberately tried. Oh, and we're out of time. Thank you for joining us.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we talk about college for 20 minutes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I thought, you know, is there any way we could talk about what kind of cable I'm subscribing to so that we can get past the time. But this topic we're going to talk about today touches on plural marriage. And so because of that, I want, you know, to just let everyone know I'm not going to be able to go into everything there is. And I'm certainly not going to be able to answer every question on plural marriage. Anyone who claims that they have every answer to plural marriage is selling you something. They're probably wearing a seersucker suit and they've got a giant inflatable arm flapping person behind them saying, what's, what's it going to do to get you into this car? So, so the whole reason I even thought of that professor of ours was we're going to talk about plural marriage. But just, just, just part of it. That's part of it. And essentially any answer I give you is it's just, it's, it's part of it. And honestly, that's kind of the way you need to approach that topic. I know that every person who's ever, you know, decided to film anything for Netflix thinks they know everything there is to know about saint practice of plural marriage. But the reality is we're talking about tens of thousands of people over the course of three quarters of a century. There are so many different experiences, different sources. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of individual sources on the topic, depending on what era and what you're talking about. So no matter what we cover, like our esteemed and also feared professor from yesteryear, it's just, it's. It's part of it. It's just part of it. So you have to, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So an email that we received, gentlemen, first of all, that's, that's already higher praise than we deserve.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like he doesn't, he hasn't listened to very many of the podcasts.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Obviously not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He certainly didn't listen to the last 18 minutes.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Gentlemen, on the topic of uncanonized revelations of Joseph Smith, I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the 1831 revelation attributed to Joseph Smith by W.W. phelps in his 1861 letter to Brigham Young. This reported revelation includes the noteworthy comment about how the early elders were supposed to take unto themselves wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just for even now their females are more or are more virtuous than the Gentiles. This text is cited by some Joseph Smith researchers, to say nothing of fundamentalist Mormons, to argue that plural marriage was on Joseph's mind much earlier than his 1835 marriage to Fanny Alger and his 1841 ceiling to Louisa Beaman. Do you believe this revelation can be reliably attributed to Joseph Smith? I noticed the Joseph Smith papers omits this text as a Joseph Smith document, but does include other purported revelations. Thanks for your tremendously interesting discussion on this subject and for your otherwise great podcast. Cheers, Stephen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, thank you, Stephen. That, that, that was quite an erudite email.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Very well written.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I realize that this is a little bit in the weeds, but if you want me to talk about plural.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Marriage at all, that's the only way we're going to get.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The only way we're going to do it is in a way that's completely non replicatable by. No, what he's referencing is that There is an 1861 letter that is written to Brigham Young by W.W. phelps. So Phelps obviously longtime member of the church, and in this letter he provides the text of a revelation that he will state is coming from Joseph Smith from July of 1831. Now, one of the things that Stephen points out, and Stephen himself is a researcher and a teacher of early church history. So I Think that's why this is something that's on his mind, is that this is not a featured document in what would have been documents, Volume one documents, Volume two of the Joseph Smith Papers. When I say a feature document, what I mean is it's not one of the things that we present as, hey, here's a Joseph Smith document. And as you know from our previous podcast, the Joseph Smith Papers featured revelations whether or not they were published. Right. So if Joseph wrote a revelation down in his journal, that's still a revelation as far as the Joseph Smith Papers are concerned, even if it wasn't ever published. And so there's a lot of things that go into determining whether or not something is a Joseph Smith document. And so maybe it wouldn't be too bad to spend a little bit of time on this anyway, because most of you have stopped listening because we talked about our early academic days. I also mentioned townships in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Why don't we just go for broke and I talk to you about archival decisions about whether or not something constitutes being a, quote, Joseph Smith document. What we mean by that is there's a certain criteria. Right. So let's say you're going to publish all of the papers of George Washington. Well, how are you going to decide whether or not something is a paper of George Washington? Some things are pretty easy. Right. Here's all the letters that George Washington wrote. Okay, well, that's. That's pretty easy. But what about. Here is the minutes of meetings that George Washington was in. Okay, okay. With the meeting, but here's someone who, 40 years after Washington is dead, is claiming that he remembers word for word what was said in the minutes of a meeting when they were planning to attack the Hessians, you know, in the Battle of Trenton. Well, is that a George Washington? They're saying this is what Washington said, and they're giving it word for word. And Washington said this? Well, most Washington researchers would say that's an interesting comment, but it's not the same thing as a viable Washington document. So if we had someone writing in their journal. Right. Who was there? President Washington. He wasn't present yet, but maybe, you know what, Maybe he had foreknowledge. Maybe he was one of the people praying with him in Valley Forge.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, it was 40 years later.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, right. President Washington said to me, well, if he was writing in the journal at the time. I see, yeah. If he's writing it at the time, then. Then that would make a researcher feel much more comfortable. And this is a real problem, especially when it comes to Joseph Smith materials, in fact, there's lots of people who contact us and say things like, hey, how come you didn't include what my grandfather said Joseph Smith told him as one of the documents? Well, because generally speaking, and look different projects have different standards, but generally speaking, reminiscent accounts, meaning when someone is looking back and saying, oh, yes, I remember so and so said this are not strictly speaking considered representations of that speaker or that person from the past. Now, that doesn't mean that the person didn't actually hear Joseph Smith speak. What it means is it's far too unreliable decades after the fact for someone to try to recreate word for word what it is that was said. And if you all want to, you can play this game very quickly. Right now, all of you, right now, get out a piece of paper. See, now I'm going to be the professor, right? And this will be just part of it. Get out a piece of paper. Write down, you pause this if you want. Don't do it. If you're driving or if you are, we're not liable. Write down word for word what the youth speaker in your ward said last Sunday. Write it down word for word. You were there, or at least you're going to tell everyone you were there. You'll tell me that you were there in an email that you write and that Richard reads that, that not just the gist of it, not just, oh, I know that she spoke on blessings word for word. Write it down. Now you might say, well, that's different. I mean, I mean, if it had been, you know, if President Ballard had been there then, then I would have, you know, paid much more greater attention, which, you know, shame on you. You should pay attention from anyone who's speaking from the pulpit. But even then, if I were to say, write down word for word what Elder Uchtdorf said in his conference talk, not one that you've already heard once and you've probably studied it a second time in Relief Society or in your priesthood organization.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, so we actually had an experience several years ago where Elder Perry came to speak to our ward. It was an awesome experience.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I hope it was quite a few years ago.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It was, yeah, probably about.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, I don't, I mean, 10 years ago. This is a completely different story. If Elder Perry talked to you a week recently, you know, yeah, this, that would be, it would be a much better story.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But it was about 10 years ago and he came and spoke and I've, I've heard a, an apostle speak live maybe one other time. In my life prior to that. We just relatively recently moved to Utah. Never been to really General Conference. Anyway, it was. It was an incredible experience. And I remember he talked about the Articles of Faith, and I can just give you kind of general ideas about what it is that he talked about as it relates to the Articles of Faith.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right, so. So what's true about that experience? Elder Perry actually did come and speak at your ward. You were actually there and you were actually touched by what he had to say. Right? That. That's true, but that's very different than you publishing by memory a transcript of what he said. You saying he talked about the Articles of Faith, and it was incredible. Is very different than. And let me quote now from Elder Perry, the Articles of Faith are. And you start going into a word for word transcription that. That Elder Perry was there, that you had an incredible experience. That is true. That's a source that you're relating. But you wouldn't take the document of the transcript that you're trying to recreate in your mind as being an official document. Now, there are times that there are exceptions that are made when it's clear that someone is copying an earlier document. For instance, it's very clear that when George A. Smith is writing his quote, unquote autobiography, that it's. It's later. He's. He's making this copy, you know, in the mid-1850s. But it's obvious for. By certain, you know, markers you see in the text that he's copying a journal that he has word for word in many of his entries. Well, those journals no longer exist. So even though when he's writing his autobiography, it's not strictly speaking, a, you know, a contemporary document. When he says, Joseph Smith told me X, he's copying from what was a contemporary. When I say contemporary document, it makes it sound like I'm talking about, like, music that you hear in an elevator, but no contemporary meaning. It was created at the time. And historians prize documents that are created at the time far over ones that aren't. And I know I've used this example before, but unless you've listened to the entire series of podcasts, which I just can't imagine that anyone has. Richard, is anyone. Is there any way to check and see if anyone's actually listened to all of these? No. Even my mom, I think, is lying at this point. I agree. I mean, she's a wonderful woman, but I'm pretty sure I told her that, you know, I had someone in church, that I say, hey, when are you gonna have Your mom back on the podcast, I told Renee that, and she said, I will never go back on. It's just so embarrassing. She's such a wonderful woman. At any rate, the reality is that what you think about a specific experience, even a very spiritual experience, is going to be affected by your other life experiences over the course of time. And a perfect example of this is your patriarchal blessing. That when you first get your patriarchal blessing, I mean, you can even start from the very time those words are spoken, right? You go in, you're nervous, you know, you don't know what this is like. You're like, please let me be, you know, Naphtali as a tribe. I mean, whatever you're thinking when you go in as a teenager, right? And even between the blessing itself and then the week or so later, when you get the transcript of the blessing and you can read it, what happens? You read through it and you say, oh, man, I forgot that he had said that. And actually it had nothing to do with whether or not he had said it. Of course he had said it. Then throughout your life, you go back to that patriarchal blessing over and over and over again. And how many of you have the experience that you go back to that patriarchal blessing and you read it again and you say, oh, man, I can't believe I ever thought that it meant, that this part of it meant this. It obviously means this, right? So, you know, maybe in your patriarchal blessings, like, you will have a time of great trial in your life. And, you know, and when you're, when you're 17, you're like, oh, my goodness, it was when that girl dumped me. This is, this is obviously what the Lord is saying to me right now. And then, you know, later in life, you have teenagers and you're like, I can't believe I ever thought it was because a girlfriend in high school broke up with me. Because teenagers exist in the world, and this is obviously what it was. The point of that is that what you think your patriarchal blessing means is entirely affected by what's actually going on in your life and what your experiences are and the way you interpret it. If someone asks you right now, what does it mean, what you say to them will. Will differ depending on what your life experiences have been. Well, this is what I think this means. That's the same problem with non contemporary sources. No matter how desperately we try, we won't be able to forget the events that have happened in the intervening years. I mean, this is kind of like, you know, my, my wife Likes to watch a lot of, like, Investigation Discovery shows. I'm convinced that it's because our wives are clearly planning to murder us. Right. I mean, because they both like those shows, right?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Absolutely. Dateline all.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And so. And it's always, you know, the. The guy coming on like. But David never made it home, did he? You know, that kind of thing. And then they're telling, you know, how these horrible things happen. But the reality is, try as you might to replicate exactly how you felt on the day that you were married or on the day that you received your patriarchal blessing or the day that you first, you know, first day on the mission, unless you wrote it down at the time, your memory is going to be affected by the fact that you know what happens next. Ask anyone who's been through a particularly painful divorce, and the way they think back on their wedding day of that marriage is not going to be the same as someone who thinks back on their wedding day for a marriage that they're very happy in. Because we're affected by the experiences that happen to us. That's part of the problem. One of the other problems is oftentimes when we're remembering events, we tend to place them in the context of our current situation rather than what was going on at the time. This happens a lot when scholars are trying to place undated items, especially if they're doing it from, you know, say, early New Testament documents. Right. Part of the way that scholars try to date those documents is by the types of arguments and language that are being used at the time. If someone's using language that was used, you know, not. Wasn't used Anywhere else until 400 A.D. but they're claiming that this document is from 70 A.D. well, it's. It's pretty unlikely that it's from 70 A.D. since no one was using that language at all at the time. Now, Richard's been doing some digging over here and. And tell us what you found.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Okay. So I found actually a journal entry that was written.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

First of all, I can't believe you kept a journal.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I was really good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In the year 2012, I'm the worst journal on earth.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So this. So this event happened on. And as. As I was not listening to anything you were saying and just reading through and looking for this, I'm like, it was such a profound moment in my life. I. I wish, I hope that I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Had assumed you'd fallen asleep. I didn't say rice terrace for ten minutes.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, so. So I went back and I looked at things that I wrote on the day. And it was June 10, 2012. And we had that day. I don't know what he was planning necessarily to speak about, but that day we had a young man, Preston had just become a deacon. And so he had just been, you know, brought up to the top up by the pulpit and the bishop put his arm around him and we all sustained him receiving the Aaronic priesthood and being ordained at the office of a deacon. That's something that I hadn't remembered. And so when Elder Perry got up to speak, he asked Preston to come back up to the pulpit with him and they discussed the articles of faith together.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

With a deacon.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

With the deacon. So that he.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, that's a pretty important part of the story.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It actually is. It's. It's fascinating. I'm remembering it now. And. And so he would have Preston.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Read.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

The article of faith and some of them Preston had memorized and he had him read the article of faith and some of them he would read with him. And then Elder Perry would give a beautiful apostolic discourse on the meaning behind that article of faith.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is a great example of a central part of the context of this experience which you remembered, which you knew was great, was that there was this brand new deacon involved in it.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it was awesome.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But when you first told the story.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I completely forgotten about the deacon, which.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Which I would argue is one of the main part. Yeah, it's the main part. It's one of the more central aspects of the story.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It was actually made it all the more endearing and sweet as this young deacon is up there with an apostle and El Tom Perry. It was just a massive, tall, huge guy. Huge guy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know he played football. Absolutely.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

And just with his arm around him, just in a loving and jovial kind of demeanor. And. And so I wrote down a couple of things that, that I remembered at the time, specifically talking about the first three articles of faith and how they teach us who were accountable for and to. And so anyways, very interesting as I go back to read this now and my. Right, if I was 10 years ago, if I was to give this 10 years ago, almost to the day, if I was to give this as a recollection, which I did, it was like, hey, that was kind of neat. That was kind of a neat thing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now imagine you didn't have this journal record. You might reference this Elder Perry talk multiple times in your life, but given the fact that ten years later you didn't recall that aspect of him bringing the deacon back up and even who the deacon was we could probably talk to that deacon, right?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And ask him, do you remember that experience? Right.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

He's about to get married, by the way. It's absolutely hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I hope it's because he kept the articles of faith 100% follow them.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, I will tell you, we. We went home and. And it was a main focus for.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Our family to learn these articles. All right. We're memorizing the articles of faith. Your son's like, why all of a sudden, dad? You'll know. Because I need. The next time an apostle comes and it happens to be the day that you're called to a priesthood office. I need this, son. I need this. I need this for me. Anyway, it's a really good example of how having a contemporary record helps solidify the things. Now you even have some direct quotes there. Now, even though you have some direct quotes. If I were doing an L, Tom Perry Collected Papers, you know, if we were publishing the L Tom paper, L. Tom Papers, the L Tom Perry Papers collection, we wouldn't include your transcript of the few lines that you put in quotes here, even though they're very likely, very accurate and they are contemporary. Like you wrote them down at the time. Why? Well, because it's not the entirety of what he said. Now, maybe if there was enough, and maybe you were like, you know, you were copying it all on the fly, like you're some kind of court reporter and you're. You can type 700 words a minute, and that would be different. Right, but what would we do with that source? We would. Let's say that there was an official transcript or maybe he wrote in his journal or he included a copy of his talk in there. Then we would footnote that talk with the source that you have, you know, one of the. One of the members in attendance, you know, the, the ward, you know, building coordinator Richard, I don't know what you were at the time, you know, wrote in his journal that Elder Perry said, and that's how we do it. So you would be a footnoting source. You'd be a source that would let us provide some insight into the. The talk. But we wouldn't feature, you know, your, your what you wrote down as the talk. You can see the difference there. And so with Joseph Smith sources, we have this problem all the time because especially by the late Utah period, there are all kinds of people saying, I remember when Joseph said X. And in general, in fact, almost in total, that recollection is not a Joseph Smith. It's not a Joseph Smith document. Even if the person starts to say, Joseph said, and I quote, we don't take that as a Joseph Smith sermon. So I can tell Stephen, you know, since he's the only one listening now, or probably even he's given up. Cheers, Stephen. But that as someone who worked on Documents, Volume one, these earliest Joseph Smith documents, and that dividing point between the. The two volumes was right there. Our volume, Documents Volume One, went all the way to June of 1831. And the next Documents volume, which other scholars were working on, started in July of 1831. And what Phelps is claiming in this letter is that it was July 17, 1831, in Missouri, actually in the Indian Territory west of Missouri, that Joseph Smith received this revelation that would actually make it the earliest revelation that Joseph Smith received in Missouri. That that honor right now goes to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 57. Doctrine Covenant, Section 57 was received on July 20, 1831. So this source, and maybe we should read some of it because the email gave us part of it. Just, just part of it, though. But it's important to know you. You could, you could go into the church archives and, and see this, this document. It's Ms. 4583, if you're, if you're doing some church history library searches right now for it. And this is how it starts off. President Brigham Young, I have the pleasure of sending you. And then it says the substance, and it has the substance underlined three times as a point of emphasis. President Brigham Young, I have the pleasure of sending you the substance of a revelation by Joseph Smith Jr. Given over the boundary west of Jackson County, Missouri, on Sunday morning, July 17, 1831, when seven elders, including Joseph Smith Jr. Oliver Cowdery, W.W. phelps, Martin Harris, Joseph Ko, Ziba Peterson, and Joshua Lewis, united their hearts in prayer in a private place to inquire the Lord who should preach the first sermon to the remnants of the Lamanites and the Nephites and the people of that section that should assemble that day in Indian country to hear the gospel and the revelations according to the Book of Mormon. Among the company there being neither pen, ink or paper, Joseph remarked that the Lord could preserve his words as he had, as he had done till the time appointed and preceded. And now this point. He then begins to, even with verses, quote, or at least provide what appeared to be a quote of a revelation that Joseph Smith gave. And I mean, it's in revelation format. Like I said, he even has it versified. And for instance, it starts, verily, verily, saith the Lord, your redeemer even Jesus Christ, the light and the life of the world. You cannot discern with your natural eyes the designs and the purpose of your Lord and your God in bringing you thus far into the wilderness for a trial of your faith. And to be a special ministers to bear testimony of this. This work. Oh, sorry. Testimony of this land upon which the Zion of God shall be built up in the last days when it is redeemed. So that's that first verse that he's writing. So you notice he's writing this as if he does have a. I mean, he's even putting the verily, verily saith the Lord in there. Right. He's writing it as if this is a word for word transcript of the revelation that Joseph gave. Yet how do I know that it's not a word for word transcript? What are some of the textual clues that tell me that? Well, first he starts off by saying this is the substance of a revelation Joseph Smith gave. What's very interesting is there. Now this is going to come as a huge shock to those of you listening, but there are several anti Mormon websites. Yes, yes, I know they exist. And when they use this revelation as a means of trying to attack, you know, the discussion about polygamy and, and other aspects of this, they actually, several of them, I noticed, provide that. They cut that part out where I'm looking at the original document right now. Right, Richard, you can see it. I'd even told you, I mean, it's right there. President Brigham Young, I have the pleasure of sending you the substance. And again, the substance is underlined three times each word. The underline three times substance underlined of a revelation by Joseph. Well, that's a clue right away that this is not word for word transcription. Whatever I'm about to read is only the substance of what was spoken, meaning the gist of it, or this is just part of it. I mean, whatever. I mean, it's however, remembers. Now, again, that does not mean that there was no revelation, and it also does not mean that there was no. That it didn't even have some of the same topics in it. But what does it mean? Unlike other revelations that I know were recorded at the time, that I have records of at the time, I need to be incredibly careful, especially with the particular words, phrases and maybe even ideas that Phelps is now providing here. Maybe. Should we go on and read more of it? Yeah, I mean, why not? I mean, we've come, we've come. We've come this far. Yeah, verily. This is verse two of this Purported revelation. Verily. Inasmuch as you are united in calling upon my name to know the my will concerning who shall preach to the inhabitants that shall assemble this day to hear what new doctrine you have to teach them, you have done wisely, for so did the ancient prophets, even Enoch and Abraham and others. And therefore, it is my will that my servant Oliver Cowdery should open the meeting with prayer, that my servant W.W. phelps should preach the discourse, and that my servant Joseph Coe and Ziba Peterson should bear testimony, and that they shall, as they shall be moved upon by the Holy Spirit. This will be pleasing in the sight of your Lord.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So this. This isn't written like it's the substance. This is written.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He's writing it with versification as if it really is the actual word for word, word of the Lord. Now, if I were to compare this to revelations that Joseph Smith actually received, I would. I think there would be. There's some significant differences. I can already hear in the kind of cadence of the way Joseph's revelations. But again, he is. He's presenting it as if he has recorded. So before we go back to read verse three, because I know you're all.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

On pins and needles.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Pins and needles. You're wondering, who was that? Professor at Utah State. But the other very clear indicator that this is not written down at the time is what Phelps says. We didn't have pen and we didn't have paper. But don't worry, you know, the Lord's always preserved his words, right? So not only do I. Do I not believe this revelation was written down at the time. Even Phelps, as he's writing this to Brigham Young, is saying, hey, we didn't write this down at the time, but never mind, here's a crack at it, right? So verse three. Verily I say unto you, ye are laying a foundation of a great work for the salvation of so many as will believe and repent and obey the ordinances of the gospel and continue faithful to the end. For as I live, saith the Lord, so shall they live. Verse 4. Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. But ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing. For it is my will that in time ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites and their posterity. Sorry, that their posterity may become white and delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous than The Gentiles. Gird up your loins and be prepared for the mighty work of the Lord, to prepare the world for my second coming, to meet the tribes of Israel, according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the beginning for the final desolation and decrees upon Babylon. Sorry, sometimes I'm a little halting reading this. I'm trying to do it on the fly from the. From the original. And, you know, sometimes Phelps crosses his Ls, even though it's an L. Well.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

You'Re thinking about the desolation of Babylon. You're going to cross an arrow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You're gonna get excited. You're gonna get excited. Oh, Babylon's gonna be destroyed. Let's throw a few crosses in there. Anyway, it goes on. For as the everlasting gospel is carried from this land in love for peace to gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth for Zion, even so shall rebellion follow after speedily with hatred for war, until the consumption decreed shall make a full end of all the kingdoms and nations that strive to govern themselves by the laws and precepts and force and powers of men under the curse of sin in all the worlds. That's the end of what he's labeled verse 5 here. He then continues with verse 6. Verily I say unto you that the day of vexation and vengeance is nigh at the doors of this nation, when wicked, ungodly, and daring men will rise up in wrath and might and go forth in anger, like as the dust is driven by a terrible wind. And they shall be the means of the destruction of this government and cause the death and misery of many souls. But the faithful among my people shall be preserved in holy places during all these tribulations. Now, this is very interesting here, that he's alleging here at this point that Phelps is. Is claiming that Joseph has received a revelation about a coming civil war. This would be a year and a half earlier than when we know doctrine covenant section 87 to actually be received. So now you can already start to see some of the problems that a historian is dealing with. Phelps is recalling even earlier than we have a document that. That Phelps did it. That he actually received a revelation about the coming of the civil war, that Joseph spoke about. The coming of the American Civil War is a miraculous thing that we've already talked about in a previous episode that you've probably already gone back to listen to after you got this far into this one. But that also starts to make you a little wary of it. Why? Well, when is phelps Writing this? August 12th of 1861. Well, what's only happened a few months earlier, April of 1861, when the hostilities of the American Civil War have commenced. So what's on his mind and everyone's mind, of course, Joseph Smith's prophecy that this nation was. Was going to have this terrible civil war. And it just so happens to make into what Phelps is recalling from this revelation, Joseph spending a great time talking about a coming civil war. Does that mean that Joseph didn't talk about it? No, but as a historian, you are going to be very wary of this, because Phelps is essentially providing to Brigham Young at this point something that proves that Joseph was even more right than everyone thought he was about the coming of the Civil War. Now, it ends off with very. With verse seven. Be patient, therefore, preparing your souls in peace. Oh, sorry. Possessing your souls in peace and love. And keep turning the page over. Keep the faith that is now delivered unto you for the gathering of the scattered Israel. And lo, I am with you, though you cannot see me till I come. Even so. Amen. Reported by WWP WW Phelps. Now, the important aspect of this, and actually what's driving the commentary on this, as Stephen asks, is after this, he writes about three years after this given. I think he means this was given. But after this given, I asked brother Joseph privately how we that were mentioned in the revelation could take, quote, wives, quote from the nations, as we were all married men. He replied instantly, in the same manner that Abraham took Hagar and Keturah and Jacob took Rachel, Billa and Zilpah by revelation, and that by revelation is underlined, the saints of the Lord are always directed by Revelation. Underlined, again, respectfully, as ever, I have the faith to be W.W. phelps. So that's the signature there. So this is what's really standing out from what is provided here, that this isn't just a revelation that isn't known, but the point of the revelation is a July 17, 1831, commandment from God for these men not to just marry among the Lamanites, but to do so polygamously. You can see why then people who are researchers dealing with the talk topic of plural marriage see this as an important source because this means this would be kind of the earliest statement that we have that Joseph knew that they were supposed to practice plural marriage. Now, it is a very problematic statement for all the reasons we've already said, but it's actually even more problematic than that, right? Even Phelps, in his oh, so expert recollection of the word for word of this revelation that wasn't written down writes about three years after this. Well, was it three years after? I mean, you'll notice when people talk about it, he said that in 1834, he talked to Joseph. Well, actually, I don't even know if it was in 1834. Could have been 1835, could have been 1836. I mean, we started off with you saying that El Tom Perry talked to you last week, and I had to remind you that he was dead. And only at that point. Point where you're like, oh, yeah, it was a decade ago. I mean, obviously I'm being facetious here with my friend, but. But you can see how even that's problematic. What is he saying? That none of the men at the time apparently made that connection. Why is it taking Phelps three or four or five or however many years to ask? Joseph, wait a second. If you're commanding me to get married and I'm already married, you know, there's trouble right here in River City that.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Is hilarious to think about. Yeah, just hold on just one sec.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wait a minute. This doesn't add up.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

You know, and then three years later, three, four, two.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. Because if they're being commanded to marry Native American women at the time, you would think at the time, all of those men would say, Joseph, just a. Just a few quid pro quos that we need to talk about. Right. Just. Just a few moments of your time. I'm already married. Right. I mean, that. That would be. So the very fact that that isn't apparently, or at least according to Phelps's. According to Phelps's account isn't asked at the time is something that really is going to cause us some. Some consternation. Part of the problem we're dealing with with this source is Phelps is both the provider of the source, the only provider of this source, and he's also the one providing the commentary on what the source means. That's a very difficult thing because he's not only the text, he's also the context. And. And that will always cause a historian to say, let's press the pause button here. Well, I have a lot more I want to say about this, but we're kind of out of time. I will say, you know, ending off the reasons I've provided help Stephen and others understand why this wasn't included as a definitive Joseph Smith paper in the Joseph Smith Papers. There is no contemporary source for this revelation. Indeed, by Phelps's own account, they did not write it down. Right. And maybe he wrote it down somewhat later. But he's the one saying, we didn't write it down. Even though he then proceeds to provide some very neatly written, verily, thus saith the Lords. Second, Phelps is the only person that claims this revelation, Right? You don't have, you don't have other people saying, oh, yes, I recall this revelation. So the text is. You can't use his word for word text because he's even saying, you know, this is only the substance of it, even as I provide, you know, versification of it. And you have to be careful. Was it actually a revelation that he's remembering? Was Joseph just providing counsel after they finished their prayer and Phelps learned that, you know, surprisingly, it would be him who would be giving the discourse as he's remembering this? Oh, who will have the honor of giving the first discourse among the Lamanites? Well, it surprisingly was me. I mean, maybe that's why he remembered it. But this isn't something that anyone else is talking about. But our little. Our little jaunt, which has become a terribly tedious odyssey journey down this particular rabbit hole, has a lot more to it and some insights that we can provide. So that's what we're going to talk about next week on the podcast. So please tune in and we can uncover some more of the different aspects of this purported revelation of Joseph Smith.

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth. Com. Until next time.