B (2:38)

It is interesting. I remember on my mission, I was, I was knocking on a lady's door and I was asking, I asked her a question of what if there was additional scripture, what would she think she's like, oh, that'd be great. I would absolutely love the idea of additional scripture. And I'm like, well, you're in luck. We've got that here. And it was interesting because there was this desire of, boy, if we knew more of the teachings of Jesus, more of these things. But yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of it in that way. They've already jumped the hurdle of, hey, there's all kinds of new stuff. How about some more?

A (3:16)

The biggest Protestant hurdle is that the only word of God is in the pages of the Bible. Everything else is just superfluous. The only thing that is the word of God is the Bible. But as a Latter Day Saint, you have already decided that there actually isn't just good teachings outside of the Bible, but that God has produced additional scripture that is equal to, in authority to the Bible, not just a, hey, it's okay if you read this because it can really give you a pick me up in the mornings. Now this is a great quote of the day calendar. No, the Book of Mormon is equal in power and authority to holy Scripture, which is what's so blasphemous to other Protestants about Mormons. So as you rightly discern then upon coming into the church, you already have a predisposition to believe that God has scripture that's outside of the bounds of the Bible. And in fact, the Book of Mormon discusses the various different records that there are. There are obviously other books that are mentioned in the Bible that we don't have. And so as a Latter Day Saint in far from viewing the Apocrypha as, oh, this is a bunch of Catholic devil work that William Craig Brownlee is saying. Instead, you see the Apocrypha as a way of almost buttressing the claim of the Book of Mormon. You're claiming that there can't be any true scripture outside of the canonized Bible. Well, the Book of Mormon's outside of it and it's true scripture. And you know what else is outside of it? The Apocrypha is outside of it. And oh, I know now you're claiming that it's not true, but it was held by as to be scripture in Jesus time. So it's good enough for Jesus, but not for you. I understand. William Craig Brownlee. Right. So there's a tendency to, to want to find other scriptures. And this actually gets to the point where members of the church will be asking Joseph, have we found any of the other lost books of the Bible? In fact, in a letter that the Saints in, in Missouri are going to write to Joseph in 1833. They're going to say, you know, Joseph is trying to tamp down expectations. I mean, he's produced the Book of Mormon, he's translating the Bible, he's received dozens of Revelations. Members in Missouri are apparently writing to him like, hey, the Bible talks about the Book of Jasher. Have you found that yet? I mean, we just assume you have. And so Joseph in the letters, like, we have not found the Book of Jasher. No. Nor any of the other lost books mentioned in the Bible as yet. Nor will we obtain them at present. So Joseph trying to tamp down expectations. But the very fact that he's being asked that question from Missouri Saints demonstrates what they not only believe that there's going to be other scriptures revealed, they want Joseph to do it. Now there's an expectation that those things are going to be revealed. We also have some evidence inside of early Latter Day Saint literature that the apocrypha is being held in much higher regard that it's still being held as Scripture. In the church's newspaper, there is an article which, quoting from the apocrypha, you know, sarcastically says, you know, which the, the prominent people of the world have decided to cast down as apocrypha, meaning they're wrong about it. They're. They're saying that it's false. And in fact, something that's pretty near and dear to the Latter Day Saints is the dedication of the, the land of Zion for the settling of the Saints. That dedication ceremony itself quotes part of the apocrypha. It's Sidney Rigdon who is the one who is saying it. And this is, this is the, the record of that brother Sidney Rigdon stood up and, and asked, saying, do you receive this land for the land of your inheritance with thankful hearts from the Lord? Answer from all. We do. Do you pledge yourselves to keep the laws of God on this land which you have never kept in your own land? We do. Do you pledge yourselves to see that others of your brethren who shall come hither do keep the laws of God? We do. After prayer, he arose and said, I now pronounce this land consecrated and dedicated to the Lord for a possession and an inheritance for the Saints in the name of Jesus Christ, having authority from him and all the faithful servants of the Lord to the remotest ages of time. Amen. So that's this, the dedication of the land of Zion where the, where the new Jerusalem is going to be built. Well, where is that phraseology coming from? Well, it's actually coming from Second Esdras in the in the Apocrypha. Second Esdras is probably the apocryphal book outside of Maccabees that Latter Day Saints will find that they are the most familiar with. And why? Well, in part, it's because second ESDRAs contains in it an explanation of what happens to the lost ten tribes of Israel. Now in the Bible, the the lost ten tribes of the kingdom of Israel, they are, you know, carried away by Assyria, and you don't really know what happens to them. Well, Second Esdras contains more of the story, and you'll see the reason why it is so appealing to Latter Day Saints. In the first place, the prophet has a vision, and as part of this vision he sees this man coming up from the midst of the sea. But this is at least part of it. This is from second Ezra's chapter 13. This is the meaning of the vision. Whereas this is verse 25. Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea, the same is he whom God the highest, hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature, and he shall order them that are left behind. And whereas thou sawest that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind and fire and storm, and that he held neither sword nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him. This is the interpretation. Behold, the days are come when the Most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth, and he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth. And one shall undertake to fight against another, one city against another one place against another one people against another, one realm against another. And the time shall be when these things shall come to pass that the sign shall happen which I showed thee before. And then shall my Son be declared whom thou sawest as a man ascending. And when all the people hear his voice, every man shall in their own land leave the battle that they have one against another. So you you can see already from this phraseology this is very much can be incorporated into this pre millennial rhetoric that as we talked about in an earlier podcast that you probably never listened to or probably turned off halfway through, Latter Day Saints have a relative uniqueness in their religion in in the early 19th century in that they believe that Jesus is coming, he's coming literally, and he's coming in power and glory, and it will be cataclysmic and that he's going to Come to a world that's filled with sin, that's at war, and Jesus is coming, will end it. You can see why second ESDRAs, with this passage in here, would be appealing. That's not the only part. In fact, Second Esdras is going to reference the establishment of Zion. So if you're a Latter Day Saint who cares about the establishment of Zion, and here is a book in the Apocrypha that talks all about this vision, about the second coming of Jesus and the establishment of Zion, well, you're pretty sure this is scripture, right? Or at least you hold to it. Verse 34. An innumerable multitude shall be gathered together as the. As thou sawest them. Because it's an interpretation of the vision willing to come and to overcome him by fighting. But he shall stand upon the top of Mount Zion, and Zion shall come, and shall be shoed to all men, being prepared and builded like thou sawest the hill graven without hands. You, you've heard that, that phraseology from Daniel of the stone cut out of the mountain without hands. A perpetuation of that imagery is going on in second ESDRAs. You can see why a Latter day saint in 1833 would have an affinity for Esdras. But that, that's only part. That's just part of it. As my professor at Utah State would have said, it's part of it. It's part of it. Richard had the same professor.

B (12:44)

I did. I did. McInerney.

A (12:46)

Dr. McInerney.

B (12:47)

Yeah, I took.

A (12:48)

I'm pretty sure he's not listening to this podcast.

B (12:50)

I'm fairly confident he is not. But he would, he would say. You would say something that would be an obvious thing. And it's like, it seems like it would be the main part, but he would always just say that's part of it.

A (13:01)

No matter what question he asked the class, no matter what the answer was, he would never acknowledge it as the. As the full answer. That's part of it. That's part of it. That's part of it.

B (13:12)

But I mean, as a history.

A (13:13)

No, now I respect him so greatly. I mean, I respected him then too. But the, you know, there's. There actually is never just a single answer to any historical question. As the two part series on the Apocrypha and Mormons demonstrates that there's. There's not a very good yes, no. And whenever, whenever someone tries to make something seem very clear, well, they are doing that by cutting out the extraneous material that makes it a little unclear.

B (13:45)

Well, it's funny in. If we could talk about business for just a moment. If we just could.

A (13:50)

I think. I think Lisa wanted us to cover some Japanese rice tariffs.

B (13:53)

Well, she's in luck. Well, but so as it relates to, you know, most of the, you know, academic research in. In management or in organizational behavior or any of these things, you're looking for a correlation coefficient that has a certain level.

A (14:12)

All of our listeners have stopped listening.

B (14:14)

This is about to get really exciting.

A (14:15)

You said the word coefficient, and I can see our numbers. People are undownloading it. They're re uploading this back to the cloud.

B (14:26)

Well, I'm just saying that what you're looking for in those particular cases is there's some level of statistical significance, but the actual impact of a variable on a particular thing is relatively small. There's so much noise, so much things that are going on, so many variables, so many things. And so. And again, defense of Professor McInerney is part of it.

A (14:50)

It's all just part of it. I'm going to start doing that every time I'm asked a question about plural marriage. It's part of it. Just part of it. Which is. Which is actually the right answer. But so as this vision continues, as second Ezra, chapter 13 continues, you'll see an even greater reason why Latter Day Saints have this incredible affinity for the Book of Second Ezra. So they've seen Zion now being built, you know, you know, stone cut out of the mountain without hands. And this, my son, shall rebuke the wicked inventions of those nations which for their wicked life are fallen into the tempest, and shall lay before them their evil thoughts and torments, wherewith they shall begin to be tormented, which are like unto a flame, and he shall destroy them without labor by the law which is like unto me. And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him. Those are the 10 tribes which were carried away, prisoners, out of their own land in the time of Hosea, the king whom Shalmaneser the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters. And so they came to another land so suddenly. Second Esdras is now talking about how in the Last days the 10 tribes are going to be gathered as part of the preparatory to this second coming of Jesus. You can see how a Latter Day Saint is reading, but it gets even better. But act now and we'll go.

B (16:25)

Wait, there's more.

A (16:26)

But wait. If you order now, you'll get verse 41, also verse 40 of Ezra's chapter 13. So they. They are carried away captive into another land. And this is what happens after they go there. So that the cool part about this is the lost 10 tribes are gone. They're lost, they're, they're nowheres. But Esdras provides an explanation of what happens to them after they're taken away to Assyria. But they took this counsel among themselves that they would leave the multitude of the heathen and go forth into a further country where never mankind dwelt, that they might keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land. And they entered into the Euphrates by a narrow place in the river for the Most High, then showed them signs for them and held still the flood that they were passed over. For though that country was a great way to go, namely a year and a half of traveling of these 10 tribes, that same region is called Arsarith. And they dwelt there until the latter time. And now when they shall begin to come, the highest shall stay the springs of the stream again that they may go through. Therefore thou sawest the multitude with peace. So to a latter day saying this explanation that the 10 tribes not only leave Assyria, but with the determination that they're going to go try to, I love the phraseology, to serve God like they never did in their own land. And so much is that ideology a part of Latter Day Saint belief that there in the dedication of Zion, the land of Zion. It's no mistake that Sidney Rigdon is using second Ezra's chapter 13, having the people covenant, are you willing to serve God here the way you never served him in your own land? This is a new, this is a new place where Zion is going to be established. And the very fact that the Book of Mormon talks about other people being led away, other scriptures, right. This, this book seems to demonstrate to Latter Day Saints not only were more righteous people with other records in the new world, they were all over the place. And we only need revelation and a seer to bring forth these other records which will eventually be of all of the lost tribes. So you can see how this is so appealing to a Latter Day Saint who's already crossed the Rubicon of their scripture. That's not in the Bible. And you know, I feel this same kind of rush and adrenaline as I'm going through documents and we come to a, a Joseph Smith sermon that, that had. I hadn't known before. Right? It's a rush to me because here is words of the seer, the, the, the, the, the prophet of the restoration that are, that are of course true because they're from the prophet that I didn't know before. And now I have this additional information. Latter Day Saints in the early 19th century have this same idea. So in the Protestant world, without Joseph Smith, I mean, outside of the Latter Day Saints, in that Protestant world, there is an anger and a lambasting of the Apocrypha. And it's really being used almost as a comic foil, as a way to thump your chest to say that you are less Catholic than the next guy is. And if you don't believe me, look at this. He has an Apocrypha in his Bible. But in the world inside of the Latter Day Saint Church, you not only have members who are, who are okay with the Apocrypha, they actually see the Apocrypha very much as Scripture. Now, that leads us back to what actually happens with the Revelation, the actual words of the Revelation. The original question I started with, which no one remembers because it's been so convoluted and everyone stopped listening, not just because of Richard's business, but because. Mainly because he brought up. Yeah, he said coefficient, I believe. Right.

B (20:47)

I did, yeah.

A (20:48)

That, that there's a certain. There are phrases that. That's just. Yeah.

B (20:52)

As I was. I was trying to make a point. And as I was. As I was into it, I'm like, I need to pull the ripcord and get out of this.

A (21:00)

Just like you're just like your PhD dissertation. Just got to pull the ripcord out. That's right. Joseph has been told by God that he's going to have the mysteries of the kingdom revealed to him when he's done with the translation. He's finishing the end of the Old Testament. And what is there at the end of the Old Testament in the King James Bible? The books of the Apocrypha, which he's always grown up having them in the Bible. It would make sense to keep going on the translation and to translate them, too. But at the same time, the world that is around him has taken to, you know, beating up on the Apocrypha as a way of demonstrating your Protestant gravitas. So the apocryphal books are false. They are. They are frauds. They are Catholic heresies trying to creep into our Scriptures. So Joseph asked the Lord the question, when you say, I need to finish translating all of the Bible, do you mean the apocrypha as well? DNC 90, which told him, you need to finish the Scriptures, is received on March 8th. The very next day, March 9th, Joseph receives Doctrine and Covenant, Section 91. Because the natural question of you need to finish translating the Bible is, well, where does the Bible end? And so do you want me to include the Apocrypha Now? I find doctrine section 91 very fascinating. Clearly more fascinating than most people do. That's why this is part two. And the reason why I find it fascinating is that if you are simply claiming that Joseph is a short charlatan, if Joseph is simply trying to. If he, if he's only saying things by a means of getting more of his deluded followers to believe his gold Bible. Delusion, Right, that kind of stuff. The answer that comes in the indoctrination of Section 91 doesn't seem like the answer you would give. Let me read. It's a brief revelation. I'm going to be reading from the manuscript version of the Revelation, a revelation given concerning Apocrypha. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, concerning the Apocrypha, there are many things contained therein that are true. And that is mostly translated. Correct. There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are the interpolations by the hands of men. Verily, I say unto you that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated. Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand. For the Spirit manifesteth truth, and whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom. And whoso receiveth not, the Spirit cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen. So the revelation gives. The definitive answer is you don't need to translate it. But when I say that it's a problematic if it, if it's just Joseph trying to curry favor. No one's happy with this revelation outside of Mormonism. Protestants are, are attacking anyone who has the audacity to believe that the Apocrypha should still be in the Bible or that it should be in any way counted as Scripture. Most of the converts to the church are obviously Protestants. So in their missionary efforts, had this revelation said, yeah, you know, the Apocrypha, it's actually more from the devil than you thought it was. It would actually be a bridge building, you know, building on common beliefs of hating Catholicism essentially that Latter Day Saints could have pointed to. And, and William Craig Brownlee, who thinks, you know, Mormonism is, is the most evil, deluded thing that's ever happened as a Calvinist theologian, even he would have to say, well, the Mormons are right about that because the Apocrypha is from Satan. That kind of stuff. Right. So had Joseph received a revelation that the Apocrypha is false, that it was a Catholic invention, that revelation could have actually been used to win converts because it's such a big deal in Protestantism at the time that missionaries could have said, I, I heard you saying that the Apocrypha never should have been in the Bible, even though it was in the Bible for the past, you know, 1600 years. Right, right. I, I've heard you say that. You know what, the prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation from God saying that it was from the devil. You could see how that would be a powerful missionary tool. You already want to believe the Apocrypha's false and Joseph Smith received a revelation saying that it's false. Okay, maybe I'll hear what else this guy has to say, you know, what do you mean? Baptism? You know, go down the line. So had the revelation said that, it could have been used as a proselyting tool. On the other hand, if Joseph is just a charlatan and a farce, had the revelation said the Apocrypha is absolutely true and you should translate it, it would have provided a vehicle for Joseph to have an ancient authority to teachings he wanted to give right now, because he could translate that apocrypha again, if he was a charlatan, he could claim to translate the Apocrypha and, and add whatever doctrines he wanted to add in there and then give it the stamp of ancient authority because, oh, this is what was originally in the Apocrypha, because it's what members of the Church wanted. He's not writing a letter to Zion saying, hey, yeah, we haven't received any other books yet because they aren't asking, they are asking. So he would have pleased a lot more members of the Church by saying, the Apocrypha absolutely is Scripture, and in fact, I am going to translate it because this, this is just like the Bible. He would have expanded the authoritative words of Scripture that he could then translate again and add his own teachings. But doctrine, covenant, section 91 does neither of those things. It. Again, we go back to the text, right? Concerning the Apocrypha, there are many things contained therein that are true and it is mostly translated correct. You've just lost every Protestant all. Your ability to now use this as a bridge to bring Protestants into the fold is gone. Because you just said that almost most things that are in it are correct, that it's true. For Latter Day Saints who are desperate and eager for any more ancient scripture that they can receive, you've now disappointed them because you're not going to translate. Honestly, if you were doing, you know, if you were doing poll testing of what the best decision for the company to make would be, the doctrine section 91 decision would be the worst one because no one's happy by it. And you're thinking, well, that can't really be that big a deal that, that Joseph doesn't translate the apocrypha. Because, I mean, you know, what are, what are Latter Day Saints gonna leave the church over it? Yes, in fact, they are. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I've primed the pump with Richard.

B (28:57)

Well, no, the answer is always yes.

A (28:59)

Yeah, exactly. Are Latter Day Saints going to leave the church over this?

B (29:02)

Yes.

A (29:02)

Yes. Are they going to leave the church over this? Of course. What about two hour church already gone? You know, I mean, just. Yeah, that's in this letter that he writes back to the Latter Day Saints in Missouri telling them that they haven't found the book of Jasher or any other lost books. He explains that he received this revelation on the Apocrypha, again in the letter to the church respecting the apocrypha. Although, although he writes apocrypha. So the apocrypha, the Lord said to us that there were many things in it which were true and there were many things in it which were not true, and that those who desired it should be given by the Spirit to know true from false. We have received some revelations within a short time back, which you will obtain in due time because they're asking for more and more revelations. They're asking, have you found lost books? Have you received more revelations? And Joseph's responding to this as, okay, we have. We haven't found any more lost books. And I don't anticipate that we're going to. We did just receive a revelation on the Apocrypha that, that it is somewhat true and somewhat not. And I've also received other actual revelations from God which we'll, we'll send on to you.

B (30:11)

But how about Jasher?

A (30:12)

But what about Jasher? Oh, yeah, Jasher was a big deal. But, you know, here's this lost book of the Bible. Well, you're thinking, why, why does this matter? You pro. You were already thinking, oh, they've always been. You've been. Since you first tuned in to the podcast, you've been saying, why does this matter? You know, I mean, even when we were talking about basic doctrines like salvation through Jesus, why does this matter?

B (30:37)

Finally going to get an answer right.

A (30:39)

It's on the basis of presentation. So it actually does. The fact that Joseph doesn't engage in the Apocrypha and the Apocrypha is so widely accepted in the church, means that there is now an opening for an apostasy on the lines of the Apocrypha. Now, they still seem to hold the Apocrypha in wide regard. Now, this is speaking of apocrypha there. This is an apocryphal story that I don't know if it's absolutely true or not, but when they are placing the cornerstone of the Nauvoo House, they're placing various things in it. And at least according to one person who's present for that dedication or the placing of the cornerstone, the Bible that they place in the cornerstone, like all Bibles produced in America after 1828. And yes, I realize there are some that are produced that do have the. But nearly all of the Bibles, the ones in circulation, that the Bible that they initially place in the cornerstone doesn't have the apocrypha in it because Bibles by 1841, Bibles don't have the Apocrypha in it anymore. Right. At least most Bibles that are King James Bibles that are produced and Joseph actually stops the ceremonies and says, in order for this to be complete, we need the Apocrypha to be part of it. So this guy runs home to his family Bible, which is an older Bible, a family Bible that you've been keeping for generations, and, you know, takes a penknife and cuts out the apocrypha from his family Bible, brings it back to the cornerstone and puts it in there with the Bible that they've put in. So the Bible can be, you know, complete. So that that shows you that still by the Nauvoo period, the apocrypha is still treated with. Again, I don't know if everything in that story is accurate, but if it is, it represents Latter Day Saints are still seeing the apocrypha, at least as being important enough that the Bible is not complete without it gives you an idea. But I said that it opens up the door. And, and like we've talked about, the. The belief that Zion is so essential opens up the door to what? It opens up the door to people claiming that they know where Zion is going to be before God tells them where Zion is. Right. You have, oh, it's going to be here, it's going to be there. And early heresies in the church do that, like the Hiram Page, Seer Stone and whatnot. The belief that the second Coming is so central to our religion, opens up the door to what, you know, the 14th feather and the cities of Salem that the eclipse is passing over because, because believers are so certain that Jesus is coming, it is not a very far stretch for someone to say, and by the way, I know when and how. And. And a believer already desperately believes that Jesus is coming, so they're more susceptible to those false prophetic utterances, which is what it is. False prophets claiming that they know things that God hasn't revealed. You know, not even the angels in heaven know. But luckily dude with a YouTube channel has it figured out. It's, it's great how he figured it out. Apparently it wasn't the angel grabbing people by the hair and dragging them. Because you think he would know. If anyone knows, he would know, but he didn't. At any rate, this belief that the Apocrypha kind of has this like, unlocked potential to help us know more about the Second Coming is actually taken up by a family in, in Kirtland and then into the Nauvoo period that are going to make claims. It's the Brewster family. The Brewsters are going to claim that their son, your young son, has the gift of revelation and that God has been giving him the lost books of Esdras, which are essentially a continuation of the apocrypha that were mentioned in the Bible. And they begin to write these down, they begin to publish them, they begin to print them, and, and in fact, Latter Day Saints begin to be led away by James Brewster. That's, that's who this, this, this person is. Brewster will actually take these revelations and present them to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. And it's, it's one of those places where we get to find out exactly what Joseph Smith thinks in his journal. Because Brewster comes and shows him these revelations and Joseph Smith's response is the Lord. This is what he wrote in his journal. The Lord told me that book was not true. It was not of him. If God ever called me or spoke by my mouth or gave me a revelation, he never gave revelations to that Brewster boy or any of the Brewster race. How do you really feel, Joseph? Right, because. And people are being led away by this. And in fact, there will be a Brewsterite schism from the church. Several dozen people will follow James Brewster. They'll actually create their own. Create their own church. They'll have their own publication called the Olive Branch, I believe. And it espousing that these new revelations expanding the Apocrypha are the real declarations of How God is, is preparing to, to send Jesus in the Second Coming. And then of course, Joseph Smith has become a fallen prophet. It's. It always, you know, you always know, like, ah, yes, here's where Joseph fell because he wasn't willing to accept it. This, this is such a big deal that it's actually noticed by the newspapers in Illinois which are quite antagonistic to Latter Day Saints. And this is, this is going to come as a spoiler alert to many of you. The news media in the 19th century viewed Mormonism in very negative terms, very much unlike media today. So the, the Illinois Journal, a Springfield publication, has, for instance, this article. Very important is the, is the article headline, a young lad of this city by the name of James Brewster, a member of the Mormon Church, supposing himself to be inspired, has recently written and published what he's says is one of the lost books of the Bible. This publication having been circulated among the Mormon churches, the Nauvoo Times and Seasons, Lieutenant General Joseph Smith's organ. Again, they're, they're making a mockery of that, that Joseph Smith's a Lieutenant General of the Nava Legion because they, they hate the Nava Legion and they hate Nava Hood. Well, and they hate Mormons. I mean, there's, yeah, they hate Joseph.

B (37:39)

Smith, they hate Lieutenant Generals.

A (37:41)

They, I'm pretty sure that they hate the Apocrypha. There's all kinds of hate. Right? Has given notice that no one but the said Lieutenant General Joseph Smith is permitted to be inspired and that the work in question is a perfect humbug. In this last particular, we fully concur with Joe.

B (38:03)

That's actually pretty funny.

A (38:04)

Right. And so what's their point? Saying, it's kind of like I said, that had Joseph derided the Apocrypha from the beginning, had he said this is false Catholic garbage, at least on that point, other Protestants would have said, okay, we agree with you because that, because it's not the Bible. And you can see that's what's going on here with the writer of the Illinois Journal, right? Joseph Smith's literally wrong about everything except for the fact that whatever Brewster produced is not part of the Bible. Right? So, but these Brewsterite, this Brewsterite schism is going to lead people. It'll continue to lead people away even after Joseph Smith's death. It's one of these apostate groups. Oh, it'll eventually die out, but it's one of these apostate groups that gains followers and members. And it's precisely because Joseph doesn't do what the people want him to do. And that is expand on the Apocrypha. That's because doctrine covenant, Section 91 isn't a PR plan. Doctrine of Section 91 is the Lord speaking to Joseph, saying to him that the Apocrypha is in some way different than the Scriptures. If we were to go back to what did Martin Luther initially say, the founder of the Reformation, he said that the Apocrypha was, quote, not held equal to the Holy Scriptures and yet are profitable and good to read. What does the revelation say? That there are many things contained therein that are true and many which are not, which are their interpolations by the hands of men. Therefore, it is not needed that it be translated. What's really interesting is the revelation that's given to Joseph essentially circles back to where Protestantism had been when Protestantism began with Martin Luther. Not that these are all just, you know, the filthy popish rubbish designed to make us believe in the purgatory that doesn't exist, but there actually are good teachings in it that it is inspired, even though it's not the same thing as canonized Scripture.

B (40:24)

So how then is the Apocrypha or the Apocrypha, the Apocrypha, how is that viewed today in the church?

A (40:35)

Well, I would say the primary answer to that is it's not viewed at all. I would guess that there is a very small minority of my listeners who is already only my mom, Rachel's mom, Eric and Lisa and Jed. We have five listeners. We need them to download a lot, I guess. We still have, we have, we have Gina.

B (40:57)

Gina in Vermont.

A (40:58)

Yeah. And we have, outside of Benson, we have, we have your brother in law, Craig.

B (41:03)

Yeah, he's in New Hampshire.

A (41:04)

Yeah. And Jacqueline, I mean, half of our.

B (41:07)

Listeners are in New Hampshire or Vermont.

A (41:09)

That's really the market that we're going for.

B (41:12)

Tammy, of course.

A (41:13)

Oh, well, Tammy's our, our first and best listener. She, the other day even, you know, sent me a Marco Polo demonstrating that she was forcing her husband completely against his will to listen to the podcast. They were in the car together and there he was trying to hang his head out the window, Mike stuffing cotton in his ears. He's, he's doing everything he can to avoid it and he can't. There's you and me talking on the. Yeah. So that I would guess that there are very few of our listeners who have ever really read the Apocrypha. And that's not an indictment on anyone. I hadn't read the Apocrypha Why it's not in my. The Bible that I carried with me to church the whole time growing up. I read the whole Old and New Testament, but I didn't read the Apocrypha because it wasn't in there in Joseph Smith's day. Of course he read the Apocrypha because it was in the Bible. The same Bible that Joseph is reading and comes across James 1:5. It causes him to go ask the question in the first place. That very Bible has the Apocrypha in it as part of the Holy Bible.

B (42:26)

So maybe it'd be valuable to just kind of read what the church says about the Apocrypha.

A (42:31)

There we go.

B (42:31)

All right, here we go.

A (42:32)

From the church's website.

B (42:33)

From the church's. Yeah, this is from Richard leduc.blogspot.

A (42:38)

I find it odd that you said this is from the church, but this is a dot info. What?

B (42:43)

Yeah, that's right. So Apocrypha. This is. So this is from Guide of the Scriptures on LDS.org Sacred Books of the, of the Jewish people that were not included in the Hebrew Bible but are retained in the Bible of some Christian churches. These books are often valuable in linking Old and New Testament. Old and New Testaments and are regarded in the church as a useful reading. And then it gives kind of a summary of d and c 91. The apocrypha is mostly translated correctly, but with incorrect interpret interpolations the Apocrypha can benefit those enlightened by the Spirit.

A (43:21)

So what you're saying is we shouldn't even have done the two part podcast we could have read?

B (43:28)

I feel. Yeah, that's pretty concise. But, but, but it does, it does suggest that boy, there's, there's a lot of value there and I should probably, you know, dig into it a little.

A (43:37)

It is one of the few books that exists outside of the Bible that you have a revelation from God declaring has truth in it. Right. So it's, it may not be scripture, but show me the other stack of books that a revelation from God specifically states that there are many truths in it.

B (44:01)

But, but if the, the translations are correct and they're just generally the.

A (44:07)

There's been things that were added in it that shouldn't have been added. Yeah, I mean it does make you wish that Joseph had translated it because then I could sort out the interpolations of men, but that it was not the same level as scripture. So yeah, I would hope that Latter Day Saints would want to read it because again, of all the things you could read. It's the only book that a revelation is declaring has truth in it. Now we know there are truths in things that we know that they're, you know, we're supposed to seek wisdom out of the best books. That means there's obviously wisdom and truth in books that aren't the scriptures. But only the Apocrypha is actually named in a revelation as there's truth in that book. So for me, I think we should spend time research. Now you're thinking, I can't even get through, come follow me of Deuteronomy. You want me to go read. I mean, if you have interest of it, you can at least read the Daniel and the Lion's Den story from Bell and the Dragon when you get to Daniel and the Lion's Den in your Old Testament study. And I think that's important that we have to view it with an eye of. You're only going to be able to discern the truth through the Holy Spirit. It's not the same as scripture, but it's, it's, it's also not the Catholic forgery designed to destroy people's true belief in grace salvation that William Craig Brownlee believes it is.

B (45:35)

Well, I mean just this, this idea of purgatory that comes and is, is defended in, in The Apocrypha in Two Maccabees, chapter 12. The idea of work for the dead is fundamental to what we believe. And so I can see viewing things through the Spirit, understanding, okay, here are the gospel truths. And as I read the Apocrypha, those things that align to the things that we know to be the gospel truths looks pretty good.

A (46:04)

And don't we want to believe second Esdras that the, that the lost 10 tribes made a covenant with God. They traveled into the, you know, the north. They traveled away a year and a half of traveling before they settled somewhere else. And their plan was to serve God in a way that they never served him in their own land. I mean that, that idea that there is this continuity between the covenant that God made with Israel and those lost 10 tribes still seeking out after that covenant, I think speaks to all Latter Day Saints because they are all covenant Israel by virtue of their baptism. And they're trying to seek out to serve God in a way that they didn't before their baptism. So I think there's a lot of connections there and it really demonstrates how over a very short passage of time, seemingly in inconclusive or small measures, can have a gigantic impact. I already mentioned one of these previously and that is, in 1921, it was pretty hard to find a Latter Day Saint that didn't know exactly what the lectures on Faith were and who hadn't ever read some of them because they were in the Doctrine and Covenants. So if you are a faithful Latter Day Saint, you not only knew what they were, you knew them the same way that you know Joseph Smith history and the same way that you know the articles of. It's in the Scriptures. How many Latter Day Saints have read the Lectures on Faith? Now? I know that some have. And I. Craig is busily typing an email right now to his sister to say, tell him I've read the. I know, yes, but that it's no longer in our. It's no longer in our general worldview. We know that they exist, but many people don't even know what they are. The same thing this attrition of understanding over the, you know, lost in the years happens with the Apocrypha. In Joseph Smith's time, there was no danger of any Latter Day Saint not knowing what the Apocrypha was. In fact, you had people like Brewster creating a whole false church church on the idea of expansion of the Apocrypha. But after decades and decades and decades of Bibles only being published that don't have the Apocrypha, their children that are growing up in the 1870s and the 1880s and then well into the 20th century, they never even had a Bible that had the Apocrypha in it. So they aren't ever even reading it and asking the question of is this true? And that, you know, that continues all the way down to our present time, where here we are in the 21st century. Most of us haven't read the Apocrypha. Many of us don't even know how we'd access the Apocrypha if we wanted to read it. You can find it online if you're wondering. And it's just not. It's not part of the questions that we ask. And that's simply because the King James Bibles that were printed in America after 1828 generally stopped including the books. So yeah, I encourage people to go seek out the Apocrypha and read it with a prayer in their heart to see what if they can understand some of the truths, or at the very least to better understand what it is. Your Latter Day Saint forbears the questions they might have had because they had grown up with that being part of the Bible. And I also just think it's pretty cool to see the interconnections of, of how it's being used inside of the church and how it's being derided outside of the church. It's yet another thing that is going to make Latter Day Saints seem weird and different from the I mean, if you needed to know that Latter Day Saints were seen as different from other Protestants, this is yet another, another item.

B (50:02)

It is, it is pretty funny. Not quite Catholic, not quite Protestant. Apocrypha, in our kind of use of it, is kind of a, kind of a perfect barometer of kind of where we fit in there.

A (50:13)

Yeah. Where everyone hates what we do. That's exactly because Catholics today still hold the Apocrypha to be Scripture. It's still part of the Catholic Bible. So when you wonder, oh, are there any Christians who believe it? Yeah, there are. There's about a billion billion of them who believe the Apocrypha to be Scripture in general. There are very few. I can't even think of any Protestants who hold the Apocrypha to be absolute Scripture. There are still some Protestant sects that hold the Apocrypha to be what Martin Luther said from the beginning. And that is, you know, it's good to read, but it's not Scripture. And then of course, there are other Protestants who believe that if you read it at all, you're welcoming Satan into your life as these Catholic heresies come to dominate your life. And the next thing you know, you're paying for indulgences and, and trying to move people out of purgatory by lighting candles. I mean, so there's a whole range of belief on it, but the, the primary adherence of apocryphal writings today are, are the Catholic Church and there's various levels of attack on those books from, from other Protestant groups. So hopefully you enjoyed this discussion and you know, next time you study DNC 91 in depth in your Sunday School class, which will also never happen, you will have all kinds of things to show. There's got to be someone listening who is the Sunday School teacher who's now just waiting? Just When Doctrine Covenants 91 comes around, I'm going right for it, you know, and then. But hopefully you enjoyed this and we look forward to speaking with you again next week. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com until next time, thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.