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- [00:01]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc. I, I know that it seems like I'm just repurposing some premium content here because it is March Madness and right now I'm knee deep in rooting for High Point, looking for that, looking for that, that all encompassing first round upset that, that pushes you along the bracket. But we, you know, we, we've dropped a couple of these from the premium side of the podcast that all of our missionaries get, but there are some that I just kind of felt like we wanted everyone to have as well. And so this week, for our Standard of Truth side, I thought we would drop what we had released last week for Doctrine and Covenants, Section 17. And to me, this is a really important section and there's just some really cool things about it, and I thought people might enjoy that. Now I know the only reason anyone even listens to the podcast is to prep for what they're supposed to be doing in, in, you know, come Follow me. And so this is so far beyond that. Like, once we're beyond the lesson in Come Follow Me, it's like the Doctrine Covenants doesn't even exist to you. Like, like Dr. Comes to section 19. Greatest thing I've ever heard in my life. If the next week we're on 24, I couldn't care less about it, so.
- [01:35]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Well, Garrett, we're going to help. So the release of 17, I thought you did a great job. I thought it was full of a lot of interesting information, will really be valuable in February of 2029 when we come back around to section 17. So we're releasing it now for free.
- [01:55]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, eventually, you know, you're gonna, it's gonna cost you. Again, we're, we're grateful for all those who, who do subscribe. It really is, really does keep the lights on as far as the podcast goes. And, and so we, we hope that you find this helpful for those of you who've already, you know, heard it, because you, you have the premium side. Well, maybe listen to it again or, you know, find a better podcast to listen to. Which is, which is all of them. It's probably, it's not even. Shouldn't be hard. You just like, throw a dart at a wall and that's what you come up with. But thank you so much and I hope you enjoy listening to this episode of Search these Commandments.
- [02:39]
Narrator
Welcome to Search these Commandments, a Standard of Truth podcast production in this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc review each section of the Doctrine and Covenants and the revelations received by the prophet Joseph Smith. To strengthen your faith and deepen your understanding, they approach the Doctrine and Covenants with faith, expertise and humor.
- [03:11]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Hi. Welcome to another episode of Search these Commandments, a standard of Truth podcast production. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [03:22]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back in the pre show. I provided you no help other than just singing the song from Sound of music. I am 16 going on 17.
- [03:36]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Because we went from doctrine and covenant, section 16 and now to 17.
- [03:42]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah, that's right. And that's the only help that I provided. And I'm glad that I could be there for you.
- [03:48]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I. I'm very surprised that you remembered that, given the fact that she's singing that to a Nazi.
- [03:57]
Dr. Richard Leduc
I will tell you.
- [03:59]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
He's singing it to her, right?
- [04:00]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Well, no, no, no. She's 16 going on 17.
- [04:03]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Right, but. So he's singing it to her.
- [04:05]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Well, he's singing parts to her, but that's the part that.
- [04:08]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:08]
Dr. Richard Leduc
You are 16 going.
- [04:09]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, you're right. Going on.
- [04:13]
Dr. Richard Leduc
I think that I'm dancing, by the way, of all. Of all the parts of that, Rolf is the biggest disappointment. You expect more from a Nazi youth.
- [04:23]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
And he just blows his whistle.
- [04:25]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah.
- [04:29]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Well, just.
- [04:30]
Dr. Richard Leduc
I mean, I feel. I feel like. I feel like the. Oh, crud. I can't remember the actual character's name. The gentleman the Nazis are trying to make as a leader in their army. He didn't. He didn't have to make him feel so small. You know, it's one thing. I'll tell you, there's one thing about Nazis is they've got a healthy ego. And so you need to just walk gingerly. I'm not defending Rolf. I feel like it's very important.
- [04:57]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I feel like you are. I feel like. I feel like even though you're Jewish, you're saying, let's hear Rolf out. He has some good points. No, there's not supposed to be any apologists for Rolf.
- [05:14]
Dr. Richard Leduc
No, I mean, he. He disappointed me the most. I. I had high hopes for Rolf and he crushed my spirits. But the nuns. The nuns came through in the end.
- [05:24]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
So. Angie loves that movie, loves that play. Just great movie. Loves it.
- [05:29]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah, music's great.
- [05:31]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I love it as well. I watched it many times when I was a kid. I will say there's one thing that Angie very much dislikes about the Sound of Music.
- [05:41]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Edelweiss.
- [05:42]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. No. How about Goodbye? Oh, yeah. As they're going up the stairs.
- [05:51]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Liesl.
- [05:52]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. No. What she dislikes. It's not the show's fault. She is irritated incredibly, every Christmas time when they play the Raindrops on Roses song as if it's a Christmas song simply because it has the words bright.
- [06:13]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Paper packages tied up with strings. Yeah.
- [06:16]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
But when you go when. When you have your birthday, there's bright paper packages tied up with string.
- [06:21]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah. No, it's. It has no place in. In the Christmas discography. It does not belong.
- [06:28]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I would actually be happier with Edelweiss.
- [06:33]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Well, because it's a white flower.
- [06:35]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
You know what I actually want most as a Christmas song?
- [06:44]
Dr. Richard Leduc
That one's a great one. My wife and I reenacted that at a Wilson family reunion, rewrote the lyrics, and our whole family acted. We had, like, the background and had the whole thing. It was the puppets. Our kids were the puppets, and we had the str. It was. It was quite the. To do. It was a. It was a Becky Wilson, Rebecca Irene Wilson leduc production. And she was the producer, the director.
- [07:11]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I'm surprised I didn't see that in the. Off Broadway when I was.
- [07:14]
Dr. Richard Leduc
It was. It was off. Off Off Broadway.
- [07:18]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Okay.
- [07:18]
Dr. Richard Leduc
In Twin Falls.
- [07:19]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
It was in twin Falls County, 42nd Street.
- [07:24]
Dr. Richard Leduc
I think we did it. We were there for the Twin Falls Temple dedication. Becky's family, her mom's side of the family is all from Twin Falls, and so the Barton side. So anyway, we're there for. There and for that. And it was quite the. Quite the. To do. So Off. Off. How far off Broadway is Twin Falls, Idaho?
- [07:41]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
There's not even a Broadway street in the town of Twin Falls.
- [07:45]
Dr. Richard Leduc
You know what? I'm gonna get our crack research staff on that. Why don't you go ahead and start on 17, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna get on that and see.
- [07:51]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
What we can find now that we're. We've wasted everyone's time as they're thinking, going on 16 and 17. Speaking of bright packages tied up with string, let's talk about the gold plates, which has to be the best either Christmas or, you know, birthday gift that anyone could get. So we just went through the revelations that were to the Whitmers 14, 15, and 16. And doctrine of section 17 is one of these powerful yet really brief revelations. You know, the. The. The explanation that's given in the section heading says that Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were moved upon and inspired to desire to be the three witnesses. Now, while Joseph is translating sometime relatively early on, but not that early on. So what I'm saying is I don't know if Joseph translated this before or after they left Harmony. In Harmony, we know that they were at 3 Nephi 11 by May 15, and then they move to Fayette by June 1. So there's a couple of weeks there. How much further do they get is the question? Because when they get to the book of Ether, there's going to be this explanation about the plates that I am sure is going to leap off of the stone to Joseph and off of the page to Oliver Cowdery. This is Ether, chapter five. And now I moron, I have written the words which were commanded me according to my memory. And I have told you the things which I have sealed up, therefore touch them not in order that ye may translate, for that thing is forbidden you, except by and by. It shall be the wisdom. It shall be wisdom in God. And behold, that ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work. And unto three shall they be shown by the power of God, wherefore they shall know of a surety that these things are true. And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established, and the testimony of three, and this work in the which shall be shown forth the power of God, and also his word, of which the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost bear record. And all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day. So one of the. One of the things that Joseph would have translated when he. One of the things to think about is that as Joseph's translating this, he's been told that he can't show the plates to anyone. And he's also had the Lord reiterate that when in. In March of 1828, Martin Harris, you know, out fresh off of. Sorry, March of 1829, fresh off of losing the 116 pages in 1828, comes down to Harmony and asks Joseph if he can see the plates. Now, you can go back and reference doctrine covenant, section 5. But he asked Joseph if he can see him, and the Lord tells him that he can't. But he does give him a little bit of a preview. He tells them that if he has faith, then he'll eventually be able to see these things. So maybe that gave Joseph a little bit of I'm not going to be alone forever. Eventually I'll be able to actually show someone. At this point, no one has seen the plates in Joseph's possession. They have felt them through cloth. They have lifted the box that they are in. Now, Josiah Stowell is the exception to that because he surreptitiously saw the plates. When Joseph's handing them through the window and the cloth comes off of them, he sees the side of them. But think of your Joseph. Joseph doesn't know that Josiah stole, saw them. If you're Joseph Smith, the refrain you hear from everyone is that you're a fraud and you don't even have plates. And they're a little schizophrenic about that because they're also breaking into his house and assaulting him, trying to steal the plates, but also telling them that he doesn't have any plates. So the antagonistic faction at this era of Joseph's life isn't quite sure whether they're coming or going. He's an absolute liar who lies about everything. He obviously doesn't have anything. So we're going to break into his house and try to kill him to find the plates.
- [13:10]
Dr. Richard Leduc
The Lucy Mack store. Not Lucy Mack. The Lucy Harris story.
- [13:13]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, he obviously does have plates. Let's dig up his yard. So if he doesn't have plates, maybe. Maybe they're not in the yard. I mean, if they don't exist, it's at least. It's at least a fair thing to consider that if they don't exist, they're not in the yard. That's what I've. I've always said that. Right, right.
- [13:34]
Dr. Richard Leduc
You have.
- [13:34]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I mean, how often have I said, if you're looking for something, it's not going to be in the yard if it doesn't exist.
- [13:43]
Dr. Richard Leduc
If it doesn't exist, it's not likely to be in the yard, it's not likely to be in the house. It's not likely to be, I guess, anywhere. It's like green eggs and ham, really.
- [13:54]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. Yeah. I will not find them in a boat. I will not find them with a goat. I will not find them on a train. I will not find them on a plane. I will not could not find them.
- [14:07]
Dr. Richard Leduc
I will not find them here or there. I will not find them anywhere.
- [14:11]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
At the very least, luckily, Lucy Harris didn't find them anywhere because I'm still not so sure how involved she was in the stealing of the 116 pages. But I digress, as is. You know what? We should start a new podcast. Let's call it I Digress.
- [14:32]
Dr. Richard Leduc
I don't know that that's fair, Garrett. I can't think of one example where we've done that in, by the way, Buell, Idaho, there's a Broadway avenue, and that's 34 minute drive from Natsu Pa Hot Springs and campground where we reenacted that goat herder. Now that's 35 hours by car away from the theater where Hamilton is being played on Broadway. So that's off off off Broadway in Buell, Idaho. Again, cannot think of an example where we have digressed.
- [15:09]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Right, so let's get back to the meaty matters in Joseph Smith's history. This is how he describes how the question came. In the course of the worker translation, we ascertained that three special witnesses were to be provided by the Lord to whom he would grant that they should see the plates from which this work, the Book of Mormon, should be translated and that these witnesses should bear record of the same as will be found recorded in the Book of Mormon first edition. It says, because it's the history they're writing. Later, almost immediately after we had made this discovery, it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and the aforementioned Martin Harris, who had come to inquire after our progress. So Martin Harris comes down from Palmyra. Now, it doesn't have to go as far down to Harmony, but. But Oliver and David are obviously living in Fayette, so they're just already there who'd come down to inquire after our progress in the work, that they would have me inquire of the Lord to. To know if they might not obtain of him to be these three special witnesses. And finally they became so very solicitous and teased me so much that at length I complied. Now, this is a. This sounds incredibly awkward to a 21st century person. The term tease in the 19th century, it essentially meant to pester in the sense of repeatedly asking. And what it's become now is like, you know, someone like, hey, you know, nice shorts, Garrett, you look really stupid in those. You know what I mean? Like now.
- [17:01]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Well, that person's really aggressive.
- [17:04]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
They really. And the worst part is I'm wearing pants. I'm not even wearing shorts right now.
- [17:08]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Well, they're. They're clam diggers, but still.
- [17:11]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, I mean, look, they're all. They're high waters, they're floods. And. But still, the, the 19th century definition is actually, the very first definition is to comb. Okay? To comb or card as wool or flax. So. So the act of straightening wool was called teasing it. I'm teasing the wool. And that's not the same thing as being like. But the lamb you came from was ugly. I mean, I don't know. That would be teasing the wool in today's modern world, right?
- [17:53]
Dr. Richard Leduc
That joke's gonna kill in Ireland, Scotland, parts of Wyoming.
- [17:58]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. Oh, I figure, I figure in Wyoming, every person who listens to the podcast.
- [18:04]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Will get New Zealand. That joke's gonna kill in New Zealand.
- [18:08]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Oh, New Zealand. They will say, you know what? You finally, you finally spoke to us in a way that we can understand. So the second one is to scratch. So, so it's to comb. And the next is so to tease now is to like to scratch, especially with a cloth. Right. 3. To vex with importunity or impertinence, to harass, annoy, disturb, or irritate by petty requests or by Jess and Railry. Parents are often teased by their children into unreasonable compliances.
- [18:55]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Oh, geez. Isn't that the truth?
- [18:57]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Well, so you can see how different. And there's no other definitions. You can see how different that word has become. You can tell how it migrated, but it went from essentially to repeatedly ask, like, you know, like, hey, you know, can you take me to Mt. Splash More? Can you, can you take me to Mt. Splash More? Can you take me to Mount Splash More? We today would call it pestering, I think, or you know, you know, something. Or even possibly whining, you know, to annoy, disturb, or irritate by petty requests. Although, you know, and now the term tease almost entirely has the connotation of making fun of someone. Wouldn't you say that?
- [19:41]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah, like, for sure.
- [19:43]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
If I were to tease Richard about his Oklahoma State orange that he's constantly wearing, you know, that I would be making fun of it, right? I wouldn't do that.
- [19:54]
Dr. Richard Leduc
No.
- [19:55]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
But were someone to be that diabolical, right?
- [19:59]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Hey, orange color. Yeah. Hey, road cone leduc. Something like that.
- [20:03]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, something.
- [20:04]
Dr. Richard Leduc
You'd never say that.
- [20:05]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Something like, it's a good thing you're wearing that because I was hunting today or something.
- [20:11]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Why are you so fat? Stuff like that.
- [20:13]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, stuff like, I don't like you and I don't like to be around you. Things like that. Just, just about my orange clothes.
- [20:21]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Hey, you got a real dumb looking face.
- [20:26]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
So when you read that, in fact, whenever you read teas from the 19th century, it doesn't mean that they're making fun of, you know, the size of Joseph's nose or something. It means that they aren't just so solicitous. Means you're certainly asking, hey, is there any way that. And Joseph uses solicitous and Then he changes to the word tease, I think to help explain how much they are asking. This is not casual. Now, if you're Joseph Smith, bad things have happened. Every time a group of these people start asking you to ask God something, you know, I'm like, no, take, take the pages, let's let me see the plates. So, but they keep going and Joseph writes at length. So they teased me so much that at length I complied. And through the Urim and Thummim I obtained of the Lord for them the following revelation. So there's the background of it. My guess is that Joseph has just Translated Ether, Chapter 5. So that would place it relatively soon after they get there. I mean, he, he will of course already translated Mormon. And I mean, he probably translated Fourth Nephi, like while he was eating a bagel in the morning, he was like a bagel. And then Fourth Nephi, you know. But I, it's probably that very express comment that says there's going to be witnesses. Now it's possible, though highly, highly unlikely, that in fact where this came from was from Second Nephi. It could have been from Second Nephi. It just seems unlikely because in Second Nephi, while it talks about it, it's less expressed than Ether and it's much, much, much later. Second Nephi, chapter 11, verse 3 says that and my brother Jacob also has seen him. He's talking about the fact that they've seen Jesus as I have seen him. Wherefore I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore by the words of three, God has said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses and he proveth always works. So that's this idea of three. So I doubt that's what it is. But two Nephi 27, this is like the chapters where Nephi sees our day in vision more clearly than any seer's ever seen anything. Part of the converting power of the Book of Mormon. To me, when I was a young person was reading Second Nephi, reading what Nephi knew about who we were and how we lived, and being absolutely spot on with everything we think, say and do. And frankly, in ways that weren't even as common in Joseph Smith's time. I mean, for instance, those verses say things like that he's going to convince people that the devil doesn't exist. Well, if there's one thing that everybody in Joseph Smith's time believes, it's that the devil exists. So why in the world would Joseph write into there in the midst of the second great awakening where everyone certain that the devil exists. Why would he write into his fake made up book that he's borrowing from view of the Hebrews and Solomon Spalding's fake manuscript? Why would he write in there something that not one person reading would believe? And I think it's because, I don't think, I mean, I know it's because it's a translation. So it's a revelation translation of Nephi's Revelation. But there, there are aspects to that that spoke so directly to my soul that Nephi saw our day. Well, if you go to second Nephi 2712, he says, wherefore at the day that the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world. Yeah, Joseph knows that. Joseph's. He's lived the whole first half of that verse. That the eyes of none shall behold it, save it be, that three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered. And they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein. So even though Second Nephi is near the front of the book, remember they translate after the loss of the pages from Mosiah to the end, and then they come back around, around the horn to first and Second Nephi, which means Second Nephi is one of the last things they translate. Now maybe again you always have to caveat. It's possible that Nephi wrote something similar in his record that became the book of Lehi that was lost. So maybe Joseph early, early on saw that there was going to be, that God was going to have other people see the plates. But it doesn't seem like it. You know, at least the way he responds to Martin Harris isn't. Don't worry, you'll eventually see them. You don't need to see them right now. So the Book of Mormon has again motivated the question that causes the revelation. Many of these early revelations are direct, direct results of them having translated the Book of Mormon. So this revelation is to these witnesses, not to Joseph. So it's different. Right, so this is not a revelation that Joseph receives telling the witnesses, it's actually to the witnesses that it's received again from the stones. He's using the Urim and Thummim, or the seer stones. Behold, I say unto you that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban. And the Urim and Thummim which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount when he talked with the Lord face to face. And the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness on the borders of the Red Sea. So they're told that they're going to see the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the plates. The term that's written into D and C17 is URIM and Thummim. And that has actually caused some people to say, well, see, the word Urim and Thummim is being used by them to describe the seer stones as early as June of 1829. The problem is we don't have the early manuscript version of Doctrine and Covenant, section 17. The earliest manuscript we have could not have been written earlier than November of 1834 because of the handwriting that it's in, and it wasn't published in the Book of Commandments. So therefore you don't know what would have been earlier. And so historians believe that the term Urim and Thummim was likely added later, probably added when Joseph revised the revelations for publication of the Doctrine and Covenants 1835. Why do we say this? Well, because we already know of another revelation where the same thing happens, or doctrine covenants section 10. We know that one because we have an early version. It doesn't say Urim and Thummim in it, but Joseph revises it for the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants and inserts the term Urim and Thummim into it. So that's why historians are like, okay, if it was original to Doctrine and Covenant Section 17, it would have been the only place it was ever used by anyone, ever, in 1829. The fact that Joseph is clearly adding those words to at least one other revelation that we can prove he did probably means he did the same thing here. And I think it's all part and parcel of Joseph trying to highlight that those stones are sacred. And maybe the word here originally was the interpreters, but by 1834, the church wasn't calling them the Interpreters anymore. They were using the biblical phrase to connotate how holy these stones were. They were calling them Urim and Thummim, and Joseph was calling every seer stone Urim and Thummim by the Nauvoo time period. Every time he wants to say the word seer Stone, he says urim and Thummim. That's why the place God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This World in its glorified and sanctified state is going to be a giant Urim and Thumma. That every person who goes to the celestial kingdom is going to receive their own Urim and Thummim. And they're not all the same ones that were found in the box of the plates. It's a generic term that Joseph is using to describe seer stones, although the assumption is the ones they see are likely the ones in the box. But it doesn't actually say that because it actually says these are the ones that were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount. Maybe they're the same ones that were in the box. It's the assumption that they are. But we at least have to say that it's an assumption. Why I say that is everything else here is being shown miraculously to them. So it's not. It's not the hardest thing in the world for the same angel that's going to be bringing all these things, you know, to pack one extra knapsack and to bring these special stones that the brother of Jared had upon the mount. Also the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness. So that, of course, a reference to the Liahona. So they aren't just seeing the plates. They're going to see a lot of things. It's interesting that they're told that they're going to do this so that Joseph will not be destroyed, so that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work. And ye shall testify that you have seen them even as my servant Joseph has seen them. For it is by my power that he has seen them. And it is because he had faith and he has translated the book. Even that part that I have commanded him as your Lord your God, and as your Lord and your God liveth, it is true. So here they have the Lord declaring to them by Revelation. Whatever you think about the translation, I'm telling you it is the word of God. It's interesting that they are told that, you know, if they do this, the gates of hell will not prevail against them. But they're told that they are going to see these things through the power of God. Verse 3. After you've obtained faith and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them by the power of God. So they. They. It's not express. It doesn't say in here. And an angel is going to come and show these to you. It. One might think that it's going to be a miraculous thing. But really it doesn't ever state the way you're going to see them is going to be miraculous. If we go to back to Joseph Smith's history that he writes, he says, not many days after that commandment was given, we four Martin Harris, David Whitman, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire to the woods and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer the fulfillment of the promises in this revelation that they should have a view of the place. We accordingly made the choice of a piece of woods convenient to Mr. Whitmer's house, to which we retired. Having knelt down, we began to pray in much faith to Almighty God to bestow on us a realization of those promises according to previous arrangement. I commenced by vocal prayer to our Heavenly Father and was followed by each of the rest in succession. So that Joseph prays, then David Whitmer prays, Oliver Cowdery prays. We did not yet, however, obtain any answer or manifestation of the divine favor in our behalf. We again observe the same order of prayer, calling on and fervently praying to God in rotation, but with the same result as before. Upon this, our second failure, Martin Harris proposed that he would withdraw himself, believing as he expressed himself, that his presence was the cause of our not obtaining what we wished for. He accordingly withdrew from us and we knelt down again and had not been, had not been many minutes engaged in prayer, when presently we beheld a light above us in the air exceeding of exceeding brightness, and behold, an angel stood before us. His hand in his hands he held the plates which we have been praying for to have a view of. He turned these leaves one by one so that we could see them and to discern the engravings thereon. He addressed himself to David Whitmer and said, david, blessed is the Lord and he that keeps his commandments. When immediately afterwards we heard a voice out of the bright light above us saying, these plates have been revealed by the power of God. They have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear. One of the aspects of the three witness experience that we rarely talk about. I mean, I guess I might have heard it. I don't know that I ever really hear it that often is that they don't just see an angel. They don't just see the plates, they don't just see Liahona, they don't just see the. They have the voice of the Lord speak to them in the midst of the angel speaking to Them and the voice of the Lord to tells them this translation is true. So let's just say you're someone who claims. Well, I'm sure Joseph showed them something and they just thought that they were plates. And really what Joseph found was a yellow rock that these guys were just so stupid they couldn't figure out that it was really a rock. I mean, I know that my antagonistic voice sounds pretty stupid. I intend for my antagonistic voice to sound pretty stupid.
- [36:30]
Dr. Richard Leduc
The voice matches the argument.
- [36:32]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. Let me just put it that way. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to be. I don't want to be caustic and also I want to be caustic. Speaking of 19th century words. Anyway, I think it's something that's important to remember the witness's testimony, Joseph's testimony is not just that an angel showed them plates. It's also that the voice of the Lord told them these plates are from God and the translation is correct. Now, we all know that Joseph goes and finds Martin Harris and. And, you know, eventually they have the same experience. And Martin Harris cries out in an ecstasy of joy. Tis enough. Tis enough. Mine eyes have beheld. Mine eyes have beheld. And jumping up, he shouted hosanna, blessing God. And otherwise rejoiced exceedingly. Having thus through the mercy of God, obtained these glorious manifestations, it remained for these three individuals to fulfill the commandment which they had received, to bear record of these things. In order to accomplish which, they drew up and subscribed the following document. And then they. They have the. The testimony of. Of the three witnesses that's. That's listed there. And of course, in their testimony, it does speak of the voice. I just. I just always think we talk about the three witnesses. I know I do this. I often only reference that they saw the plates and they saw an angel with the plates. But in fact, they see the plates, they see the angel, they hear the voice of the Lord speak to them and tell them that the translation is true. What a transformative event. One of the cool early documents that exists. That's not a document. It's not a Latter Day Saint document, is a letter that was written from what is today, you know, Missouri to someone who might be well known to Americans generally. And that's William Clark. William Clark of Lewis and Clark fame. The same William Clark who marched across the continent for Jefferson, along with Meriwether Lewis, would later become the superintendent of Indian affairs in the West. And you're thinking, well, why in the world are you talking to me about this. It's called tangents. And maybe they're teasing tangents. Maybe that's what they are.
- [39:28]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah, you're just trying to straighten some. Some wool here.
- [39:31]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I'm trying to Wool. While we talk about this. Well, in February of 1831. So I am flashing forward a little bit here. The local Indian agent in. In. In Missouri, he is. Is. Is quite upset that these four missionaries, Oliver Cowdery, Ziba Peterson, actually even Frederick Williams goes with them. Peter Whitmer Jr. Parley Pratt, that they are out preaching to the. To the American Indians that are there just west of Missouri in what is today Kansas. And he orders them to stop and actually tells them, if you don't stop, I will take you to jail. Tells them that they have to have a proper permit to preach. And then, of course, when they apply for a permit, they're not given one. So it works out really well. You know, it's one of the. One of the great things that you can exercise in local government power is to tell someone they need a permit for something, and then when they ask for the permit, be the same person who decides they can't have a permit. Oh, no, no, you have to have a permit to use this park. Well, can we apply for a permit? No. Okay, well. But why do I talk about it? Well, this. This guy, his name's Richard Cummins. And Richard Cummins writes to William Clark. So this year we have this because we have the record of General William Clark, who's the Superintendent of Indian affairs. And he says these people are trying to preach. And he says they say that they are sent by God and that they must preach. They have a new revelation with them as their guide in teaching the Indians, which they say was shown to one of their sect in a miraculous way. And that an angel from heaven appeared to one of their. One of their men and two others of their sect and showed them that the work was from God and much more. I have refused to let them stay or go among the Indians unless they have first obtained permission from you, which they never get. But the cool part about this is we have a February 1831 official government document, a letter to the Superintendent of Indian affairs from his. From his, you know, his. His local Indian agent, stating that these men are testifying. Oliver Cowdery is with them. Must be testifying. I saw the plates. I saw an angel. And actually, there's two other people who saw the angel and saw the plates. So I would think this is a really fascinating thing. It's not Oliver Cowdery And Joseph Smith many years later saying, oh yeah, yeah, we told people that we saw the angel. It is a few months later, not very many months later, that they're doing it enough that the federal authority who's trying to stop them is citing that as the primary thing that they're talking about. When we talk about the three witness experience there, there are a couple that are given by David Whitmer and I thought it might be. It might be nice to share some of those. I mean, I won't go through all of them. I don't want to belabor the point. Although you're thinking right now, Garrett, all you ever want to do is to belabor the point. In fact. In fact, the only thing you've ever done is to belabor the point. Is that what you're thinking right now?
- [43:16]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah. Garrett the belaberer.
- [43:19]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, it's Dirk Belaborer Moss.
- [43:24]
Dr. Richard Leduc
That's funny.
- [43:26]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
So here's what he's met by. This is actually an interview that he has with a brother from what at the time is the Reorganized Church. Many of our David Whitmer statements actually come from members of the Reorganized Church, in part because the Reorganized Church headquarters itself there in Missouri and a lot of their members are there. And that's where David Whitmer lives, along with some of the other Whitmers there in western Missouri. So he's certainly more accessible to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or what you would call today the Community of Christ is the name they go by today. Anyway, one of these brothers is going to have an interview with David Whitmer. He says, we were on our way to Richmond Ray county to visit David Whitmer, one of the witnesses. We met David Whitmer Jr. The eldest son of David Whitmer Sr. David Whitmer Sr. Is the three witnesses. He named his son David in a way to confuse everyone. He looks to be about 45 years of age. He's kind hearted and a firm believer in the Book of Mormon. So this is David Whitmer Jr. That is 45 years old and is a firm believer in the Book of Mormon. This interview is from 1882. So David Whitmer's quite elderly at this point, 1882. But David Whitmer Jr. Is also a believer in the Book of Mormon and in the testimony borne by his father concerning it. After breakfast we called upon David Whitmer Senior, meeting him just outside of his residence and introducing ourselves. He invited us into the house and directed us into a small room, presumably his own Resting and sleeping apartment. John Whitmer, the son of John Whitmer, deceased. And there's also a John Whitmer Jr. One of the eight witnesses. And now got another Whitmer with the same name in the same room, even though he's not one of the witnesses. And two or three more gentlemen whose names are not remembered were present. The women folk were cleaning the house. I, you know, I, I probably. You could have done without that. You probably didn't need to include that. That. That, you know, maybe a little not as. As progressive comment that was made during this.
- [45:52]
Dr. Richard Leduc
In the 18. In the. In the late 1800s. You're saying not as progressive as he should be about women.
- [46:00]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I mean, it's, It's. It's right on par with the late eight. With the 1880s. Let me say that.
- [46:05]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah. I mean, I'm not agreeing with it. I'm just saying, you know, man of his time.
- [46:09]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. And plus that house needs some cleaning. That's what you're thinking. That's what.
- [46:13]
Dr. Richard Leduc
That is not what I'm thinking. How dare you. Oh, my gosh. Garrett the belaborer.
- [46:18]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Well, the. The weird part about it is that he puts a. A parenthetical aside in there. He says the women folk were cleaning the house. Just our luck.
- [46:31]
Dr. Richard Leduc
What?
- [46:32]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I don't know what that. I don't know if he. If that. He thinks that means that if the women were there, they would have stopped him from talking. I, I legit have no idea why that was inserted. That's why I bring it up.
- [46:43]
Dr. Richard Leduc
That's interesting.
- [46:44]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah. I don't know. You're gonna have to. We're gonna have to, you know, comb the community of Christ archives to figure out why. But anyway, he said. Elder Whitmer remarked that he didn't feel much like talking, as he hadn't been feeling well for some time. He appeared feeble. He's now upwards of 76 years of age. He's of medium height, rather a slender build, but this. His appearance may be on account of age and recent illness. He has darkish brown eyes and his hair is white and thin. He has a good head and an honest face. I don't know what a good. I think that means. He. He's. Has his wits about him. He talks with ease and seemed at home with every subject suggested. And without an effort, seemingly went on to amplify. Amplify upon it so that we had nothing to do but question, suggest and listen. His intellect is far more vigorous and retentive than we expected to find. He's careful in his speech, for he studies to express himself in such a way as to not be misunderstood. And it hurt him to be misrepresented. A reporter called to see him some time ago and asked a few questions and went off and published that he had denied his testimony concerning the truth of the Book of Mormon. This hurt him so that he is very careful now to have some known friends present when strangers call to see him. The accounts for the presence. This accounts for the presence of others when we were there. Although he still doesn't describe why he's happy the women are gone. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, he had to make sure people were there. Thankfully, the women folk were cleaning. I don't know what's going on, but speaking of Joseph Smith, the seer, he said, and this is very nearly his wording. So now you get the sense that he may not be writing this down contemporaneously. So you need to take this with a grain of salt. Salt. He is recording their conversation, but he does. He must not be writing it down word for word because it says this is very nearly his wording. So you know that it's not exactly. It makes no difference what others say. This is David Whitmer reportedly speaking. It makes no difference what others say. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that he translated the Book of Mormon by the inspiration of God from the plates of the Nephites. Some people think if they can only make it appear that Joseph's life and character were not perfect, that he had human weaknesses, they would prove that he was not a prophet. Yet the same persons will believe that Moses, who killed the Egyptian and David, who killed Uriah and who took a multitude of wives, and Solomon, who was a polygamist and idolater, and Peter, who lied, who lied and cursed, etcetera, Were all prophets and they should be honored and respected. Now, one of the reasons why I think that it's probably certain that David Whitmer did use this analogy is a few years later, David Whitmer is going to publish his own argument. And one of the parts of his argument that he makes is precisely that we read the Psalms and we read the Proverbs and we still believe their Scripture, even though David is the one who did them. Which, frankly, is actually a pretty good argument, honestly. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's still Scripture, but. So that's what my guess is. He also mentioned the fact that, you know, Solomon had wives and stuff like that. So my guess is that there's something like that that he said what the individual life of Joseph Smith was after he translated the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with the question of whether he was or was not inspired to bring forth that book. Do you know of anything against his character? This is the question that David Whitmer's asked. I know nothing against him. I've heard some things. These things I know nothing about. I have nothing to say about the character of anyone. Only as I know it is not my mission to talk about the character of anyone. My mission is to testify concerning the truth of the coming forth of the work of God. What kind of man was Joseph when you knew him personally? He was religious and straightforward man. He had to be, for he was illiterate. He could do nothing of himself. He had to trust in God. He could not translate unless he was humble and possessed the right feelings towards everyone. To illustrate this. So you can see, one morning when he was getting ready to continue the translation, something went wrong about the house and he was put out about it. Something that Emma, his wife, had done. Oliver and I went upstairs and Joseph came up soon after. And I do like the fact that apparently Joseph and Emma got in an argument. And like anyone who's ever been in that situation, the friends leave the room, you know what I mean?
- [51:36]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Like, really uncomfortable.
- [51:37]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Anyone who has ever been with a couple where they start to argue and it starts to get a little heated, you know, I mean, it's worse when you're like, showing up for someone's house for like a party and you're like, hey, oh, where do you want me to put the. The clam dip? And, and while, while you're saying that, you know, hey, I've got the. I've got the. I've got the three bean dip right here. Do you want me to just put it on the table? And you know, and, and he's saying, well, I never even wanted to marry you. And she's like, oh, I should have married your brain, mother. He was so much like. And. And you're like, I'll just. I'll just set it on the table, out of the room. And if you can, you try to get out of the house, you know, you try to go away. Oh, yeah, it seems like that's what David and Oliver did. Joseph and Emma have an argument. David and Oliver like, hey, why don't we just go upstairs and check the specs on the inline rotary? You know, I mean, so they, they run. There's no point in going upstairs when Joseph's not up there to translate. What are they doing? I think they're hiding. I want to believe they're hiding because they're uncomfortable with the situation. They go upstairs. He came up to continue the translation, but he could not do anything. He could not translate a single syllable. He went downstairs out into the orchard and made supplication to the Lord. He was gone about an hour. He came back to the house and he asked Emma's forgiveness. And then he came up the stairs where we were, and he tr. And the translation went, all right. He could do nothing, save he was humble and faithful. So it's in this interview that you hear that oft repeated story. His statement concerning the vision that they had of the plates and the angel was the following. So here is David Whitmer giving you a little bit of backstory from his perspective. On the day that they went and saw the angel, his statement concerning the the vision was following. I was plowing in the field one morning and Joseph and Oliver came along with a revelation stating that I was to be one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I got over the fence and we went out into the woods nearby and sat down on a log and talked a while. I don't know what they were talking about. Maybe they were maybe like us. They were like. Can you believe that Duke is now the overall number one seed versus Auburn?
- [54:13]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Actually, I can't.
- [54:14]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
I mean, well, maybe if you're Auburn, you don't get housed by Texas A and M in a game in which you never, never were closer than three scores in the second half. That's. That's pretty rough. Yeah, that is pretty rough.
- [54:30]
Dr. Richard Leduc
It's a good point.
- [54:31]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
What is going on? You know, I. The reason why that bothers me is I had already essentially filled out my mental bracket and that was Auburn's clearly going all the way because I'd watched several of their games and then. Then they ran into the Texas A and M butts. I. Look, Texas A and M is a great team.
- [54:48]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Yeah, they're a top 25 team, but.
- [54:50]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
The number one team in the country shouldn't be behind the entire game and never even close. Never even close. It. The issue was never even in doubt. It was just, you know, a bunch of, you know, Texas A and M fans celebrating the whole game. That's. It's just. It's all celebration.
- [55:10]
Dr. Richard Leduc
And this is what you think the Whitmer was talking about?
- [55:14]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that while they sat on a lot, I mean, what are they going to talk about? They. They're going to talk about who do you have going to the final four? You know, have you ever teased any wool this morning? I mean, there's going to be, you know, I don't know. What are they going to talk about? Hopefully they're talking about the fact that the, the. The revelation said that they were going to see these things. But anyway, he says, we kneeled down and we prayed. Joseph prayed. We then got up and sat on the log and while we were talking, when all at once a light came down from above us and it encircled us for quite a little distance around us. And the angel stood before us. He was dressed in white, and he spoke and he called me by my name and said, blessed is he that keepeth his commandments. So notice that there's in both of these, the angel apparently speaks directly to David for some reason. And I can only imagine that it's because Oliver Cowdery has already seen John the Baptist, and possibly, likely, maybe we don't know, because we don't know the date. Has already had Peter, James and John appear to him. Now, maybe he hasn't, but at the very least, he's already had John the Baptist. So maybe this was meant to be David Whitmer's special appearance. You know, that that solidifies his testimony. At any rate, they both say roughly the same thing. Joseph in his history and David Whitmer here. This is all that I heard the angel say. A table was set before us, and on it the records were placed. I have always said that it's the most Mormon thing in the history of the universe, that the first thing they did at their meeting, pull out a table. You know, Moroni went under the stage, pulled it out on the cart, then set it up. But it is interesting that David Whitmer references this table in most of his accounts, that. Where does the table come from? They're out on a log in the middle of the trees. There's not a table out there. The angel clearly brings the table with him and sets it up and then places all of these objects on the table that he brought. I think that gives another layer of the physicality of this experience because it's not just, you know, a vision of plates dancing around in front of them. And then the vision shifts to a Liahona. He's picking up things from the table and setting them down on the table. The records of the Nephites from which the Book of Mormon was translated. The brass plates, the ball of directors, the sword of. Sorry, the brass plates, the ball of directors, the sword of Laban, and Other plates. So one of the things that he talks about here that's not in Doctrine and Covenant, section 17 is the fact that the brass plates were shown. 17 says, you're going to see the plates, the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, and the, the Lehona. But in David Whitmer's account, he's going to say that in fact he's going to also see the brass plates and other plates. So I, I'm not even. I'm. I'm not even entirely sure what those other plates are because he's already called out the brass plates. While we were viewing them, the voice of God spoke out of heaven, saying that the book was true and the translation was correct. We then asked him, do you remember the peculiar sensation that you experienced upon that occasion? He answered very slowly and definitely, yes, I remember it very distinctly and I never think of it from that day to this. But what that same spirit is present with me. How did you know that it was the voice of God? We knew it was the voice of God. I knew that it was the voice of God just as well as I know anything. You know, he's going to go on and say, you know, this was, this was a very powerful testimony that they heard from him. But that's his account there. Now that was in 1882. He's actually going to be visited by another person who's going to interview him and, and then write a letter to Joseph Smith III telling him. This is in 1884. A group of people calls upon David Whitmer and he writes this letter to Joseph iii. I had longed for years to see him. We were very hospitably entertained and enjoyed the interview much. The following are some of the facts that he related to us. Oliver Cowdery's name being mentioned. We asked as to his statement. In response we were told that it was reaffirmed a company with a solemn charge to keep the manuscript as he had. Would you like to see them? So apparently David Whitmer asked if he wants to see the. The printer's manuscript to the Book of Mormon, which he asked. And then he goes and gets it and he shows that to shows it to them. Then David Whitmer says, I was present when Joseph gave these manuscripts to Oliver. Oh, it was a solemn charge. Joseph said, I feel it in my bones that there will be a division of the church like it was with the Nephites and Lamanites if these manuscripts are not preserved. And then he goes on to Talk more about this. So the. The interviewer says, oh, brethren, this when the sentences were spoken by the good old man in such accents and tones that fairly gave life to his sterling worth. So he's kind of talking about how great it was. His integrity is above suspicion. This brings to my mind the statement of the elect Lady Emma. In the winter of 1856, she said to me, when you see David Whitmer, you will see an honest man. And in that same conversation, she remarked that her husband, of her husband Joseph's limited education, while he was translating the Book of Mormon and she was the scribe at the time, she said he could not pronounce the word Sariah. And while translating was where it speaks of the walls of Jerusalem, he stopped short and said, emma, did Joseph. Did Jerusalem have walls surrounding it? When I informed him that it had, he replied, oh, I thought I was deceived. So this is where that story of Joseph not knowing there were walls around Jerusalem, it comes from this person who says he had an interview with Emma. It's not. I mean, it's honestly not that great of a source, but it's. And many years later, but he's saying that Brother Whitmer added that since Oliver's death, it was alleged that they had both denied their testimonies. He said that preachers and others got this up and they heralded it about. This is what David Whitmer says in response to that. In June of 1829, I saw the angel. By the power of God, Joseph, Oliver and I were alone. And a light from heaven shone around us, and in solemnity pervaded our minds. The angel appeared in the light as near as that young man. So he points to someone that says, he's five or six feet away. Between us and the angel, there appeared a table, the angels getting the table out. And there lay upon it the sword of Laban, the ball of directors, the record meaning the plates, and the interpreters meaning the Urim and Thummim, or the seer stones. The angel took the record and turned the leaves and showed it to us by the power of God. They were then taken away by the angel to a cave which we saw by the power of God, while we were yet in the spirit. My testimony in the Book of Mormon is true. I can't deviate from it. I was troubled with so many, by letter and otherwise, all over the United States and some from Europe, that I made my proclamation March 19, 1881. In this way, thousands read it who would never have done so otherwise. I have the original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, they have the printer's marks. The printers have here examined them and say that they are genuine. When being printed all over Cowry would take about a dozen pages of them at a time and remain in proofread to see that the work was done properly and continued his vigil to the end. So this is a powerful testimony where again, he's talking about the fact that he saw an angel. This, this experience is not the only time again he's going to talk about. Again. I'm going to share one more interview. Since I've been, you know, going heavy on the community of Christ interviews, I thought maybe I would go to Edward Stevenson. Edward Stevenson is a. He's a member of the 70, and in the 1870s he travels and he visits. Edward Stevenson is the person who essentially reconverts Martin Harris. He goes to visit Martin Harris, convinces Martin Harris to move, gets some money together to get him to move, and moves him to Utah. And Martin Harris rejoins the church. Edward Stevenson is actually hoping that he can do the same thing with David Whitman. Hey, we already got Oliver back. Then Oliver died. Now we got Martin Harris back and now we're. We're coming for you, David. We're coming for you. So. So he's going to go meet with. With David Whitmer. And again, this is from his journal. So this is going to be a little choppy on Sunday evening about. Okay. So after breakfast, we took a walk up to David Whitmer's, the only one of the three witness of the Book of Mormon that is now living, and spent four hours with him and again four hours more in the evening. So that in all we spent 10 hours. Then he says two more hours the next day. So we spent 10 hours have hearing and being heard. And as I was successful in immigrating Martin Harris to Utah, I hope and pray that I may be instrumental in the hands of the Lord in doing so. In doing good and bringing Brother David design, I will relate some of the items of conversation as they passed between us. Brother David, please relate your feelings in regard to the testimony of yours in the Book of Mormon and the origin of the Gospel through Joseph Smith. Well, as I know that the sun shines, so do I know that I was plowing one forenoon and I heard a voice and I saw a personage who said, blessed is the Lord and he that keepeth his commandments. And the very next round, Brother Joseph and Oliver came along and said, come David, and be one of the witnesses of The Book of Mormon. We walked through a clearing and all sat on a log as it was about 11am When a light appeared and it grew brighter until an angel stood before us. And on the appearance of a table was laid the plates. The Urim and Thummim, the ball or Director, the sword of Laban. And then it says etc. So of the times, I want you to write down what he actually said. Edward Stevenson, I mean, you talked about how far you walked in one day. What have you cut that? And just included whatever the etc was that you cut.
- [67:47]
Dr. Richard Leduc
He's like, look, you coming or not? I appreciate the story, but let's go.
- [67:51]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today we've got to go. Let's get this moving. He says, after the etc. A voice declared and bore record of the truth of the translation, turning the leaves over. And thus the vision ended. Then they also get to see the printer's manuscript of the book. They keep calling it the original Book of Mormon, but Edward Stevenson knows that it's not. He had shown us the transcript copy of the original Book of Mormon written by Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith, the prophet's wife, and Christian Whitmer. It was Fool's cap, about 2 inches thick and clean and well preserved. He gave us the names of the six at the organization of their church. And he listed off there as near as he could remember, that it was about dinner time at Peter Whitmer's house. He's going to talk all about the reorganization of the church there. And then he says his testimony is as strong as possible that Joseph did receive revelations and did organize the church with apostles and gifts on the rock. But at the reorganization about the year 1836, he varied some, as for instance, naming the Church of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and young David. So David Jr. Spoke to us, saying that that was about the first dispute or disagreement between the prophet and his father. He also states the prophet suffered the publication of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants to be printed in Jackson County, Missouri, prematurely, and that he told them that it would result in evil and that the prophet had gone astray, and that he did not believe in revelations received by the prophets since that time, and that everyone was for something and his time would come by. And by that his testimony was now going to the world over in the Book of Mormon. He does give a little bit of detail about the translation too. So that's. It might be interesting to note that he says, I wish to mention one item of conversation with David Whitmer in regard to seeing one of the Nephites. And then he tells the story of. This is where the story comes of them, you know, on their way to Fayette, and, you know, some guy walks by and they say that it's one of the Nephites that's actually carrying the plates. At any rate, he goes on to say that he saw where the plates had been and mother saw the person at the shed, and he took the plates from the box. So he tells the story of his mother seeing the plates, took the plates from a box and showed them to her. She said that they were fastened with rings. Thus d he turned the leaves and the angel turned the leaves over with this satisfaction to her. She died in the room where we were visiting, sitting up in her chair and without a struggle. So he's talking all about that. So it is a very interesting. An interesting account that is there. David Whitmer, so not. Sorry. David Whitmer Jr. His son also says that the prophet translated the first by the Urim and Thummim and afterwards used a seer stone. So there's that little account in there too. But all of these accounts of David Whitmer, of the ones we read of Oliver Cowdery bearing testimony, of course, the witness that they have in the the Book of Mormon itself reiterate that these people were faithful to their testimony that they saw the plates and that they saw the angel and that they heard the voice of God all throughout their life. David Whitmer is incensed that people keep claiming that he said that he didn't see it, because I think other people know that if you can get into circulation that the witnesses denied their testimony, it would in fact destroy Joseph Smith. But the witnesses never did deny their testimony. And if you ever read someone saying, oh, yeah, they later said that they didn't see it, I will tell you what, you can guarantee it. Every person who claims that is someone who is saying it. That they saying that they had a conversation with them, not the person themselves. What do you get from David Whitmer himself? I saw the plates. I saw the angel. What do you get from other people? Well, he told me that he never really saw the plates. Okay, well, that's not what he's saying. That's not what he keeps repeating. That's not what he keeps publishing. So you can say whatever you want, but that doesn't affect what his actual testimony is. Doctrine covenant. Section 17 is a brief section of the Doctrine and Covenants, but it is so Key because it's related to one of the greatest modern day witnesses that this is the church of Jesus Christ and that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that is that those plates were miraculously shown to those men. They didn't just see plates. It wasn't just some cardstock that Joseph dummied up and said, no, look, I promise it's gold. An angel came down out of heaven and showed those plates. And then the voice of the Lord said the translation is true. So if you are ever having doubts, if you are ever wondering, I do not know, I mean, are these things really true? Go back to those witness statements. Many people have attempted to defame and undermine those statements. Sense. But they all have to come back to the historical reality of the matter. And that is none of them ever deny their testimonies. None of them. Even after they hate Joseph Smith, even after they're trying to destroy Joseph Smith, none of them do what would be the easiest thing to do to win the war against Joseph Smith. If you don't like Joseph, if you want him to collapse, the easiest thing in the world to do would be to simply say we never saw plates. Joseph paid us to say that we did. And then we signed this document and that would be the end of Joseph Smith. And they don't do it. Even though they despise him, even after they apostatize, they never claim that they didn't see plates and that they didn't see an angel. That to me is overwhelming evidence that both, not only the three but also the eight witnesses really did see what they said they saw. So if you find your testimony ever wavering, go read the witness accounts in the Book of Mormon. Ask yourself if this is all lies, if Joseph made it all up, why are all of these people who are in every other way in their life sound? They are lawyers and they are doctors, they are schoolteachers and they are farmers. They are respected in their communities all for the remainder of their life. Why are they adamantly defending the fact that they saw plates, that in some cases they held plates, that in some cases they saw an angel from the unseen world that brought the plates to them. And I submit there is no good explanation to dismiss them. Sure, you can do what any unisom anti Mormonism does. Well, I mean they were all lying together and they just decided that they'd all lie. And even after they all hated each other, they decided they'd keep the lie up because that way they could lie more about the lie because it's lie. And what evidence do you have of that lie? Do you have a bunch of inconsistent statements? No. Do you have a bunch of statements from them saying it? No. Do you have them acting like they don't actually believe the Book of Mormon is true? No. In fact, there's no evidence to impugn the witnesses testimonies. There's just a lot of very frantic, apostate and disbelieving people who want to destroy those testimonies because they know that they are a rock that the evidence of the, of the restoration is, is founded on. A few times a year I go on the follow him podcast with Hank Smith and John, by the way, two great men who are far better at this than Richard Nyer. Richard, I don't want to impugn you, but.
- [77:15]
Dr. Richard Leduc
Oh, no, it's. Yeah, no, it's, it's. Yeah, yeah, the, the, the, the. We put it up to a poll. The answers are in. Yeah, yeah, they do great work.
- [77:27]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
And we're Family Feud survey says would be number one for them. We would be number 10 and it would be with two votes. I mean, so they're, they're an outstanding podcast and they're honestly just great people. And when I was on their podcast talking about the witnesses, I said something similar to what I just said about, you know, what a powerful witness they are. And they made a little short of that and they put it on Facebook and Instagram and after it was up for a couple of days, Hank, Hank Smith, he got on and, and he, he said, what is it about the witnesses statements that has engendered so much wrath in response to this? I mean, look, they post things all the time and of course there's always trolling anti Mormons, you know, making half true statements like, well, that's, they don't even tell you that Joe Smith was a con man. I mean, right. You know, like, well, why don't they tell you about the fact that Joe Smith was convicted for lying? Okay, okay. You know, they just make crap up and they just say it and they feel like if I say it strongly, that means it's true. Well, you know, you get this. Hank comments on this and then when I, when I saw him again, he said, you know, it's crazy. We put up these things all the time. You testifying of the three and the eight witnesses and you talking about what they saw and how powerful that witness was triggered. People, we got way more negative and antagonistic comments than we've ever got. And that was the same conclusion that Hank and John came to. It's because on the other side they're well aware that the thing that they can't really explain is the Book of Mormon. The miracle that they can't just claim is a lie is the existence of that text. And the witnesses are the evidence that that text is not just coming from some made up manuscript. That's not just note cards in Joseph's hat. That it's not some past pastors novel that he intended to publish but just got sidetracked. That the words in the Book of Mormon are the words of prophets and in some places the words of Jesus Christ. And I think that the people who reject the Book of Mormon and who reject the gospel, I think when they're honest with themselves, that's what keeps them up at night, that they don't have an explanation. It's easy to say that Joseph was crazy and Joseph made it up, but how do you do that when there are so many people who had those visions with him? They're just all liars, every one of them. We have no evidence of that, but they just all are. And what's your evidence that they're liars? Well, I don't like what they said, okay? That's not what we call evidence. Evidence is something that isn't just what you wish happened in this case. Their testimonies are a solid aspect of what our testimonies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ should be. So thank you so much for joining us. I know I went a little long on this and I'm sure Richard's is pretty annoyed. Richard, annoyed.
- [81:04]
Dr. Richard Leduc
That was really great. I loved it. The more you talked about Hank Smith and John, by the way, the better.
- [81:10]
Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Right? And we'll keep doing that. Thank you so much for listening.
- [81:17]
Narrator
Thank you for listening to Search these Commandments, a standard of truth podcast production of the revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com.