S5E14 Worshiping a Different Jesus

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: Episode S5E14 – "Worshiping a Different Jesus"

Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Dr. Richard Leduc
Release Date: April 3, 2025

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Overview

In episode S5E14 of the Standard of Truth podcast, hosts Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve into the nuanced topic of "Worshiping a Different Jesus." The conversation navigates through personal anecdotes, listener questions, and theological discussions, primarily focusing on the distinctions between Latter-Day Saints' beliefs and mainstream Christian doctrines, particularly concerning the nature of the Trinity versus Oneness theology.

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Personal Anecdotes and Light-Hearted Banter

Bracket Games and Mission Memories (00:01 - 06:03)
The episode opens with Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc engaging in humorous banter about their ongoing bracket game competition related to the podcast. Their playful exchange sets a relaxed tone for the episode. They reminisce about their mission experiences, sharing stories about playing strategy games like Risk and Axis and Allies during their missions. Notably, Dr. Leduc recounts how their group would lose interest and quit the game after eliminating an intense player, Elder Byrd.

Dr. Dirkmaat [02:10]: "We played essentially until he was eliminated, and then collectively, everyone would lose interest and we just quit."

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Listener Engagement: Social Media and Christian Identity

Sierra’s Inquiry on Christianity Definition (07:20 - 17:36)
A listener named Sierra poses a question via email about the definition of Christianity, especially in the context of Latter-Day Saints being labeled as non-Christian by other Christian denominations. Sierra highlights the debate over the LDS belief in the Godhead versus the traditional Christian Trinity, noting the frequent derogatory responses received on social media platforms.

Sierra [07:20]: "Several of the posts I come across boldly declare that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Christian church. And then of course other Christians take up their pitchforks and torches to argue that it is not the case."

Hosts' Response and Theological Clarifications (09:32 - 24:24)
Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc address Sierra’s concerns by explaining the fundamental differences between LDS theology and mainstream Christian beliefs. They discuss the concept of boundary maintenance within Christianity, where differing beliefs about the nature of God lead to exclusion from the Christian identity. The hosts elaborate on the historical development of the Trinity doctrine and how it contrasts with LDS beliefs in the Godhead.

Dr. Dirkmaat [17:44]: "If you do what Jesus says, if you believe in Jesus and not Buddha, then I'm going to call you a Christian. But inside of Christianity, there is a boundary maintenance that takes place."

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Deep Dive: Trinity vs. Oneness Theology

Understanding Trinitarian and Oneness Beliefs (24:24 - 40:05)
The conversation shifts to a detailed exploration of Trinitarianism versus Oneness theology. Dr. Dirkmaat explains how the Trinity, as understood by most Christian denominations, posits three distinct persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) within one Godhead. In contrast, Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity, advocating for a modalistic view where God manifests in different forms but remains a single entity.

Dr. Dirkmaat [28:00]: "So one does Pentecostals argue that there's only one God. There's not this three separate persons thing. It's just that God manifests himself in three different ways."

He further discusses the historical context, referencing early Christian heresies like modalism and the Council of Nicaea, highlighting why mainstream Christianity rejects Oneness theology as heretical.

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Listener Insights and Theological Reflections

Parker’s Email on Book of Mormon Sources (34:04 - 40:56)
Another listener, Parker, submits a thought-provoking question regarding the canonical sources of the Book of Mormon, particularly focusing on Nephi's writings. Parker contemplates the reliability of Nephi as a source, given that his accounts may not be contemporary and are written with prophetic insight rather than as a daily journal.

Parker [34:04]: "Should we trust Nephi completely as a source? That's hilarious. I'm not saying he is not inspired or questioning his calling."

Hosts’ Analysis on Historical and Scriptural Context (38:34 - 40:56)
Dr. Dirkmaat responds by comparing Nephi’s retrospective accounts to historical figures like Joseph Smith and Biblical authors, emphasizing the importance of understanding the context in which these records were written. He argues that prophetic insight allows for a selective recounting of significant events, similar to how the Gospel of John focuses on key aspects of Jesus’s divinity and miracles rather than mundane daily activities.

Dr. Dirkmaat [39:51]: "One thing reminiscent accounts do is they demonstrate for us what a person looking back on their life thinks is most important."

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Reflections on Faith and Theological Debate (31:00 - 50:59)
In the concluding segments, Dr. Leduc shares personal struggles with reconciling LDS beliefs with criticisms from other Christian groups. Dr. Dirkmaat reinforces the value of understanding differing beliefs to strengthen one’s own faith. The hosts emphasize the mission of the podcast to provide historical context and theological insights to support Latter-Day Saints in their faith journey.

Dr. Dirkmaat [33:48]: "Use it as an opportunity to look into what your relationship with Jesus really is. How the prophet Joseph Smith and the restoration of the gospel teach us things about Jesus that no one else knows."

The episode wraps up with a mix of humor and heartfelt appreciation for listener engagement, highlighting the collaborative effort between Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc to address complex theological questions while maintaining an approachable and relatable dialogue.

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Key Takeaways

• Christian Identity Debate: The episode underscores the ongoing debate about whether Latter-Day Saints are considered Christians by other denominations, primarily due to differing beliefs about the nature of God.

• Trinitarian vs. Oneness Theology: A significant portion of the discussion is dedicated to explaining the differences between traditional Trinitarianism and Oneness theology, including historical contexts and theological implications.

• Scriptural Source Analysis: The hosts engage in a thoughtful analysis of scriptural sources, particularly the Book of Mormon, emphasizing the importance of understanding the context and perspective from which these texts were written.

• Personal Faith Journeys: Through personal anecdotes and listener interactions, the episode highlights the importance of personal faith journeys and the role of historical and theological education in strengthening one’s beliefs.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Dirkmaat [17:44]: "If you do what Jesus says, if you believe in Jesus and not Buddha, then I'm going to call you a Christian."

• Sierra [07:20]: "Usually, eventually, this is me speaking... getting into it. Usually you only get into about maybe 10 to 15 comments before you're called a Nazi."

• Dr. Dirkmaat [28:00]: "So one does Pentecostals argue that there's only one God. There's not this three separate persons thing. It's just that God manifests himself in three different ways."

• Parker [34:04]: "Another example for me would be he seems pretty harsh on Laman and Lemuel..."

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Final Thoughts

Episode S5E14 of the Standard of Truth podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of theological distinctions between Latter-Day Saints and other Christian denominations. Through engaging dialogue, personal stories, and thoughtful analysis, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc provide listeners with a deeper understanding of faith, identity, and the complex nature of religious beliefs. Whether you're a longtime listener or new to the podcast, this episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone seeking to comprehend the intricacies of worshiping a "different Jesus."

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise, and humor. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my esteemed colleague, Dr. Seymour Buckets, who has trounced me in the. The collective bracket game that we have going with the podcast. Now, while you're beating me, and while I assume you will ultimately beat me, who did you pick to win the whole thing? Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Houston.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Houston. So did I. Houston.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I've got Houston, so I have no.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Chance of catching you. Yes, I do take some comfort in the fact that you can't win. And I feel like if it's kind of like, have you ever been playing a game? Like, have you ever, like, you're, like, playing risk with. With people and. And there's one person who realizes they can't win anymore, so they just start attacking you constantly, and it's like, dude, why are you taking me? Well, I can't win, so what difference does it make to me? I have to say that I hate those people more than any. Like, someone who, like, you know, is an arsonist burning down houses is slightly below my level of hatred of people who throw games that they're playing because they can't win anymore. I. I don't know why it bothers me as much as it does. But speaking of which, Richard, we haven't played a game in a while.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. Of risk.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, we haven't.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So on my mission, we. We would have Elder Bird, who is just the greatest guy. He was from Boise, Idaho. He got pretty intense about. About Risk, and. And so we would play essentially until he was eliminated, and then collectively, everyone would lose interest and we just quit. So it was the opposite.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Would that lead, though, to you guys all ganging up on him to end it quicker?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That may or may not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like you owe Elder Byrd an apology is what it feels like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm very sorry. We may or may not have done that every Monday for three months.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, the most glorious time on my mission in Wisconsin wasn't a baptism that I had because we didn't have any, but it was. We had a group of elders together. I got a copy of Axis and Allies out there that I picked up at A yard sale. And I was in a district where a bunch of the Elders wanted to play Axis and Allies. And so every P. Day for like a month, we played Axis and Allies all day long. It was the greatest time of just. I mean, it was probably better than, you know, my marriage, my kids being born. It's really hard to place just how great it was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wow, that's. That's fantastic. I didn't play that. We did play Risk while listening to From Kimora's Hill on repeat, giving each other terrible haircuts and. And then eliminating Elder Bird, who, again, was a lovely gentleman, but he was so intense at Risk. He was. He was. He didn't make a lot of allies, and so he would get attacked from all sides and then we'd kind of lose interest and. And obviously not write letters home because we were all toward the end of our missions. Yeah, I was just. I would just. I would just mail home part of my. Part of my journal, be like, yeah, this is what I did. I'll see you in a couple months.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Would you like, redact things out of it? Like it was CIA like, material where, where like you said, things like, I'm really annoyed with my mom and dad right now. Would you like just black marker that out and then send that home to them?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, it wasn't like some sort of JFK file or anything like that. It was just, you know, it was fine.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I expect. I expect at some point the 18,000 unredacted pages of Richard's journal to be released from his mission so that we can actually see what he actually did.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And said, I will tell you, our last area. Sun City, Fun city. I mean, sure, we were having dinner at 3:30 in the afternoon at Coco's for the early bird special, but man, that. That area was on fire with the greatest ward, the greatest bishopric. Just was awesome. It was just. It was the best. It was a retirement community with like a couple subdivisions of, like, families and. Oh, man, I was there nine and a half months and just awesome. It was great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Does it make you want to retire there?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

100%. Yeah. Well, you retire to Hemet, but then you. You. You die in Sun City. I mean, that's like, kind of the progression.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes, I see. I'm pretty sure that your Idaho loving wife hates almost nothing in the world more than California. I don't know that you're going to get her to move there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She. She loves. She loves California to visit, but with the taxes and the traffic, it's. It is tough. It is A tough place to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Becky's not a huge metropolis person.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She likes country living. That is for sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She. She wants to live in a place where the directions to it include here's where you turn off the paved road. That's what she wants.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, for sure. So when, for years when we went to go visit her brother in Filer, it was all right. So you go to the tree that's at a 45 degree angle and you turn right. Problem is they had a windstorm, that tree blew down and I couldn't get to his house for years. I never knew. Thank goodness GPS finally came around.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think that, that, I think that explains why there's been a rift in the family. You kept trying to go to their house and you couldn't find it because of a windstorm. That sounds a lot like the reason why Martin Harris couldn't bring the pages back.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It sounds like I'm making that up, but that's a hundred percent. It was go to the tree with the 45 degree angle and turn right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So anyway, yeah, there's a lot of Idaho directions are like. A lot of Idaho directions involve things like make sure when you turn that you stay out of the borrow pit because it's really steep there and that's only meaningful to someone from Idaho.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Well, Garrett, we have a couple of emails from the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag to get to here. This first one comes to us from Sierra. I hope that I'm pronouncing that name correctly. It has a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's a. It's a different spelling of Sierra.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a unique Utah, I assume type spelling. I have found myself with a question thanks to Instagram comments in the great and spacious building. Well, that's the thing. Digging around in Instagram comments, you're going to get lots and lots and lots of questions. So that's a good place to start. Sierra. Like many Latter Day Saints, I enjoy seeing content about the church, Jesus and Christianity when I am on social media. Personally, I do feel better about my doom scrolling because at least there is a chance that I will be uplifted and edified. I am happy to report that it does work at least some of the time and has helped me deepen my knowledge, personal study and testimony. Several of the posts I come across boldly declare that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Christian church. And then of course other Christians take up their pitchforks and torches to argue that it is not the case. The most common comment made by friends of other faiths is that we cannot be a Christian church because we believe in the Godhead instead of the Trinity, then the comments in the thread tend to go deeper into how we believe that Heavenly Father is God and Jesus Christ is the eternal God, therefore we are not monotheistic and therefore cannot be Christian. Usually, eventually, this is me speaking, you know, unquote here, getting into it. Usually you only get into about maybe 10 to 15 comments before you're called a Nazi. So if you can get into at least. At least, you know, five to 10 before they call you Adolf Hitler, that's usually a pretty good and effective.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Especially if they're on Twitter. I mean, usually it's not what people Twitter.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Two or three. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you're on X, it's like, hey, has anyone tried this car? And the response is, well, Adolph. And whoa, whoa. It's. You know. So, yeah, I. I do feel like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There'S a lot of Nazi comments thrown around. It seems. Seems especially more aggressive. Maybe it's just my recency bias, but we can all agree the Nazis were really, really bad, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I seem to remember a few episodes ago, you were trying to defend Rolf. So we. You're part of the problem.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We. We heard from the good mayor that. That I forgot the name Captain Von Trapp. And. And. And we should go see them performing in Centerville, which sounds lovely, by the way. I wasn't defending Ralph, by the way. I was just saying Captain Von Trapp didn't have to go so hard in the paint. So saying you're not one of them, and questioning his manhood, which made him blow the whistle and become, you know, Max Nazi.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, maybe he blew the whistle. Maybe he would have just blown the whistle sooner had he not done that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know. That's possible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, maybe we should figure out whatever day we go there to watch it, we should announce it on the podcast so that everyone who wants to come could come.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Look, the Centerville Theater puts on great shows. They do a really, really great job. I've been to a couple of them. They've been awesome. Something, something, something not Christian. Something, something monotheistic. Okay, here we go. This comment from our friends always confuses me because the definition of Christianity does not say anything about how many gods you believe in, just that Christianity is based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and its beliefs and practices. In contrast, monotheism is the belief in the existence of one God or in the oneness of God, which then led me to look into oneness in Christianity, where I learned about oneness and Pentecostalism, which differs from Trinitarianism. Now I have no idea where these two groups of believers stand with one to another, but at least it opens up the idea that there is more than one way to believe in God, Christ and the Spirit and still be a monotheistic Christian. I don't have a specific question about this topic, but would love to hear your thoughts, insights and knowledge on it. I love the podcast and how it has caused me to think more deeply about the Gospel. Thank you for all that you do, Sierra. And then gave us a missionary email to someone serving actually in the Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, they wanted to shout them out though.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, they want to shout out. Yes, you're right, Elder Jacobson.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes to Elder Jacobson serving in apparently. I don't know if it's true anymore, but at least the claim is the Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, well the only true mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that's another one. Elder Riker Dirkmont. There's another one you're gonna have that's Tucson's got to fight for it. If you want this, you've gotta, you've gotta fight for it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. And Elder Leduc, I mean maybe try, I don't know. He comes home in a couple months. Who knows?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm pretty sure at this point he has so many parasites that the parasites listen to the podcast and not him parasites.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The Peru Lima east mission is killing it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like he is what happened on Star Trek to the Wrath of Khan when they put those things in their earwig. Yeah, yeah, that's what, that's what he is at this point. He's, he's being controlled by a, an outside worm influence. So, so this is a really great question. Now we do have several podcasts on the nature of the Trinity, right Richard? So you could probably maybe post some of those in the, in the, in the content that will, that will answer this more completely.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I will say, I will say, I will say too though. This is one thing that is actually really frustrating for me when I go online and, or in the social medias space and I see a latter day Saint fighting the good fight and saying the things, but they're really just talking right past each other. You're saying the same words but they don't mean the same thing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And I think a good way of looking at this Sierra, is so you looked up the dictionary definition of Christianity is based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and its beliefs and practices. Now that's a generic way of saying that someone's a Christian. Well, what makes them a Christian? Well, they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Well, that, though, is what a Hindu might define as someone who's a Christian. Right. So look, you guys, in Christianity, you can argue about whether the bread becomes the body all you want. If you guys believe in Jesus, I'm just going to call you guys Christians. One of the things, and I've talked about this before in religion, is that the people that we are most likely to have the greatest ire for are going to be the people that are the closest in our beliefs, not the people that we are furthest from inside of our belief system. And you're thinking, no, No, I think I get along with people. Well, think about this. If you have a friend who absolutely believes that the Book of Mormon is true, they 100% believe it. They love it. They believe Joseph Smith's a prophet, but they believe that Brigham Young is a false prophet and that half of the revelations and the Doctrine and Covenants shouldn't have been put in there. That is a much more frustrating thing for you than it is if you're talking to someone who's a, you know, a West Virginia snake handler, because what they believe is so far away from what you believe that in your mind, you just kind of log it as, okay, that's weird. All right, hopefully the snake doesn't bite you. Oh, it did. Okay. We'll find out now whether or not you're going to die from the viper's bite. But the people that we argue the most with, the ones that raise the most ire, are the ones who share most of our belief system but differ in key points. I mean, you actually see this all the way back to the New Testament. Almost everyone around the Jews, almost everyone is absolutely pagan and couldn't care about Jehovah at all. But who do the Jews despise most? Do they despise the Romans the most while they're worshiping Jupiter and Mars and Athena? No. Well, they're not worshiping Athena, but they're worshiping Jupiter, Mars and other Roman gods. Well, they are mixing some Greek gods in there, too. But no, in fact, what you get is that they're actually most frustrated. They're most upset with the Samaritans. Why? Well, because the Samaritans are claiming that they are worshiping Jehovah even though they're not doing it at the temple in Jerusalem, and even though they hold beliefs that the other Jews don't agree with. And so the worst epithet you can throw at someone in Jesus's time isn't. Well, you're one of those pagan Romans who believes in like 95 gods. The worst epithet you can throw is you're a Samaritan. You're someone who's perverted the true belief. Now, why did I spend any time on that? Because I'm not very good at teaching. But you know that you've been listening to the podcast because when you're trying to figure out where the anger and the animosity comes from in these conversations about Christianity, why is it that Christians are so certain that Mormons aren't Christians? Right. I mean, I would appreciate it if they said Latter Day Saints, but you and I both know they're not saying the word Latter Day Saints.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm pretty sure when they're following it up with aren't Christians aren't going to be super deferential to our desire to be called Latter Day Saints.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, you know, I, I believe you guys are all going to burn in the writhingest pit of hell, but I do respect President Nelson and, and I believe he's got revelation. So I'm going to call you guys Latter Day Saints. I don't get that. I've never had that. Maybe at some point we'll get that. You know what's funny is, in fact, you get the exact opposite. You get people justifying why it's okay to still call members of the church Mormons, even though the church doesn't want to be called that. And the funny part is, in every other part of our life, we bend over backwards to call people what they want to be called. But, you know, it's a lot easier to say Mormon, so just going to keep doing it. Well, that's kind of offensive to me. Don't care. We've got an entire Broadway show making fun of what you believe. What difference does it make if I call you a Mormon? It's fine. So the dictionary definition that you put up and you put the check mark there would not actually be accepted by nearly every Christian on earth from the outside, if you happen to be a Muslim, if you happen to be a Hindu, and I mean, maybe you are a Buddhist. Probably not listening to this podcast. But if you are from the outside looking in to Christianity, look, anyone who's following Jesus, I'm just going to call you a Christian. Okay, bro? Sound good? If you do what Jesus says, if you believe in Jesus and not Buddha, then I'm going to call you a Christian. But inside of Christianity, there is a boundary maintenance that takes place. I've used this term before, I know it sounds like it's lawn care, but it is. It's like, how do I keep the termites out? I'm. I'm flying to Austin with my son tomorrow for a volleyball tournament, and I'm, you know, how do you keep the fire ants away? You know what? The boundary maintenance. I've got a. Every time I look down, I have. I have an unnatural fear of fire ants because I once. I once stepped in a fire ant pile and. Oh, jeez, now it was in Houston. But I. I have on good authority that Austin also. Also has the fire ant problem at times. So.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, Texas fire ants are next level. They really are.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and they're like, so big. They are like, you know, they don't even have to bite you. They're like, intimidating you by talking to you. They're like, you got a problem with me? Like, whoa, whoa. Did you look at me that way?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, they're in Texas, so they obviously are packing. They have a gun.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you ever have been bit by one, it feels like that. It is so bad, so painful. Anyway, boundary maintenance, meaning. Inside of the religion, the thing that people are most concerned with is making sure that the people who have the closest beliefs maintain the right beliefs. And inside of both Catholicism, the Orthodox Church, although there is the Eastern and Greek Orthodox, there is a slight difference in their understand now, to them, it's the biggest difference that's ever happened in the history of ever. But for other people looking at it, there is a slight difference in the way they represent the Trinity. But essentially, almost every Christian who you will ever talk to would define being a Christian not just as based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth or its beliefs and practices. They would say, to be a Christian, you have to believe that Jesus is God. You have to believe that Jesus is divine. In essence, you have to be worshiping Jesus. Like, if you don't believe that Jesus is divine, you know, if you're Thomas Jefferson and you think, you know, hey, Jesus had some pretty cool teachings, you know, I like that. I like how he said that you should, like, be kind to people and stuff, but you don't actually believe that he's divine, well, then you are missing the most essential part. Divine means God, by the way. You're missing the most essential part of what the belief in Jesus is. Catholics, Orthodox, and then Protestants. Look, when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church, he rejected almost everything Catholics believe, except for their understanding of who God the Father was, who Jesus Christ was. And who the Holy Spirit was. Those things that had been settled at early church councils like Chalcedon and Nicaea were seen as accurate and they were upheld. And so since that time, virtually every Christian believes in this trinitarian idea, which is, I mean, we described it in a podcast, but it's essentially impossible to understand that there are three persons in the Godhead. And now all of a sudden you're like, oh, hey, they believe like we do, that one of those persons is God the Father, the other person is God the Son, and the other person is God the Holy Ghost. And so you say, great. We also believe there's three in the Godhead. Nope, there's only one in the Godhead. Well, actually, you just told me there's three separate persons. No, they're only one. They are one God. And the way that they would make this argument is they would say Jesus is God, the Father is God, but the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father. So it's like doing a math equation where it's like, you know, A equals B and C equals B, but A and C don't equal each other. Now it seems like if you know math, that they would have to. If A equals B and C equals B, then it seems like A and C equal the same thing. And that's what they call the great Trinitarian mystery. And we have a lot of podcasts talking about this. So. So I'm going to have Richard put him into the write up. I mean, you won't actually do it, will you, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, no, no. Okay, yeah, I will say that I will.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Much like the way that we serve our fellow man, we always say that we will. And you know, then we come up a bit short, so we'll describe a little bit more, but that's considered traditional or you might even call it orthodox Christianity. And other groups, it's not just oneness Pentecostals, but other groups that fall outside of that understanding of trinitarian theology are considered heretics. And they are called not even Christians by their fellow Christians a lot of the time. Now some are very good about it, but this includes people like Jehovah's Witnesses, it includes people like Seventh Day Adventists, it includes Latter Day Saints obviously, and it certainly includes Oneness Pentecostals. Now, oneness Pentecostals, they are a break off of a break off of a breakoff of the Pentecostal movement in the early 1900s, 19 teens. And they, instead of trying to do the self contradiction, the RAZZLE dazzle of self contradiction, as Truman Madsen said in describing the Trinity, right, that, that Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit's God and they're all one God and they're all three separate persons, but they aren't individuals. I mean, that's pretty hard to figure out, right? It's easier for Christians though, than it is for Latter Day Saints, because Latter Day Saints have always thought of God as being a man. Christians don't think of God as being a man. They think of God as being a being. And only Jesus took a body to represent, you know, in the form of a man. But oneness Pentecostals adopted a very old teaching. Now if you are a oneness Pentecostal listening, I'm sorry that I'm not doing justice to what you believe, you'd be like, wait a minute, that's not how Bernard, one of their great theologians taught it. But essentially they've adopted an early, what was considered an early Christian heresy called modalism. Modalism is, is a way of dealing with. Because early Christianity is struggling with the fact that the most essential aspect of Judaism and all of these early converts are our adherence to Judaism. The most essential aspect of it, the what makes them different than all the Roman pagans around them, is that there's only one God. And so if you believe that God is God and then you also believe that Jesus is also God, you have a real problem. How can you claim that you are monotheistic if both God the Father is God and Jesus is also God? It took years of fighting over this until eventually it was settled 300 years later. And when I say settled, I mean that's when they had the Council of Nicaea. But right after that, the very next emperor took them back to our, to Arianism. So this, what modalism is, this idea that there's this divine entity called God, okay, again, doesn't have to be a man because God is nothing like us. We are creations as far as they're concerned. We're nothing like God. So there's a divine entity called God and that, that God manifests himself in different ways. And those different modes of manifestation are, are, are how we see the different aspects of the Godhead. So when this divine entity of God decides to touch your heart, he's in the mode of the Holy Spirit, but it's still just one God when he comes down to take upon him the flesh and blood and suffer for your sins in the body of Christ, the mode that he's taken on is that of Jesus. And when he's the Father, you're praying to the mode that he's taken on is the Holy Father and so your Heavenly Father. So one does Pentecostals argue that there's only one God. There's not this three separate persons thing. It's just that God manifests himself in three different ways. Now that is utterly rejected by most theologians. There's a reason why there's a oneness Pentecostal movement because they were kicked out of the Assemblies of God and all of the other Pentecostal movements because of that belief as being a heresy. So while you're right that there's a lot of different ways that Christians can view their, their, their worship of Christ in practice. Almost every Christian on earth is a Trinitarian Christian. And they refuse to accept anyone as a Christian who doesn't come to the party, you know, with a 1 in 3 and 3 in 1 Trinitarian hat pin that they're, that they're putting on there. And it's frustrating to other Christians because they'll say things like, you don't believe in the real Jesus. Well, my entire life is devoted to how much I love Jesus and I'm trying to spread his word. But they would say because I don't believe that Jesus and God are the same being, that I am worshiping a false Jesus. And it's hurtful and, and it's hard and it's what you might expect. I mean, remember what Joseph Smith was told. Joseph Smith was told from the outset that they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, that their hearts are far from him, that, that they have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof, the actual authority, which is completely negated in all of Protestantism. So it's a great question. I know I spent too long on the answer. Everyone's not listening anymore. Richard stopped listening. I can see him on the video and he's just sitting there asleep. But I do think that as you study what other Christians believe, it can help you actually value what you believe so much more.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I will say this was something I really struggled with on my mission as I was again having dinner at 3:30 in the afternoon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now I just want to point out that you had dinners. You're complaining about when the dinners were.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, I'm not complaining. It was great. Look, we weren't allowed to track after seven because people would be asleep. It was a whole thing. But the thing is that I did struggle with that, worshiping a different Jesus. And Kind of to your last point, Garrett, man, I pushed against it, pushed against it, pushed against it. But honestly, as we've had discussions about Doctrine and covenants, section 76, and as well as other things, it has, I don't know, I kind of wear that more as a badge now when it's like, you know, what you're saying. We worship a different Jesus. And let me tell you about the Jesus I worship. And if that's different than the Jesus you worship, I'm actually fine with it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I worship a Jesus that is actually providing a way to save everyone, not just saying the words, oh, yeah, yeah, you can be saved if you accept and confess my name. You'll never hear my name in your natural life, and so therefore you'll burn in hell for the rest of eternity. But you know, you could accept it if someone talked to you. They didn't. So welcome to hell population you. I mean, it is one of the best parts about being a Latter Day Saint is believing you don't have to believe. Another contradiction. Another contradiction is that people will say that God is all loving and God is all good and God is all just. And then they will outline a theology for you in which God sends almost everyone that he created out of nothing to burn in hell forever. He didn't have to create them if he knew they wouldn't be saved. He didn't have to create them with an immortal spirit if he knew they wouldn't be saved. He didn't have to do any of those things. And yet here's everybody who's almost ever existed cooking up in hell that he created. And so they say the words, you know, God's perfectly kind and God's perfectly just. Well, I think when you're in your seventh billion year writhing in the agonies of hell, you might wonder whether or not it's as kind as it could be, especially if you never even heard who Jesus was before you were thrown in there to cook forever. So I think rather than fighting against it and being offended, which I know, that they intend offense, that's why they're posting what they're posting. Use it as an opportunity to look into what your relationship with Jesus really is. How the prophet Joseph Smith and the restoration of the gospel teach us things about Jesus that no one else knows. And they are the greatest things in the whole world. So thank you so much for that email, Sierra.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this next one, I believe is from Parker, your son? No, different. Different. Parker. Dear Dr. Genrith Dickmeat and Professor Dick Skadoosh, I think that there's a theme for that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. Skadoosh. Yeah. Okay, very nice.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I can't say the pithy line of longtime litner, first time emailer because I haven't been listening for a very long time. But I do believe I have become a hardcore litner. I started listening or littening to the podcast at the beginning of the year. Since that time I have binged all the free content and on the free week trial on Apple, I actually made it through all of Joseph Smith and the restoration. That's the way to do it, by the way. That's how to work the system. That's well done. So if my math is right, even listening at 1.25 speed, that means I've listened to 205 hours and five minutes in less than three months. Speaking of Protestant hell, Garrett, that's gotta be. That is some sort of a I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Jacob is that he believed in the wrong Jesus.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Was it Jacob or is it Parker? Is it Jacob?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Jacob?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh my gosh. I said Parker. I apologize. I am a single return missionary and so will not be serving a mission anytime soon. I literally have had multiple nightmares where I'm on a second or third mission. That is funny, by the way. I think we all may have had an idea or a dream or nightmare from time to time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

While. While I've been home for over two decades, I've been married for over two decades, I still occasionally have dreams that I'm in Marshfield, Wisconsin, knocking on doors.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's good. Let's see. So I will. I would kindly ask that you find a way to give a free trial on Spotify so I can knock out the rest of the premium content without knowingly contributing to the filthy lucre of your collective ivory tower. As I am a poor entrepreneur with a lowly undergraduate degree, I have two questions. Number one, how on earth have you never talked about the fact that Richard, during his business studies, decided to leverage his best friend's PhD to make money because he didn't have his own? I think Richard knew exactly what. What money exactly is he. Is he spending?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I feel like the premise of this question is harder than modalism.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think Richard knew exactly what would happen and that even if he didn't make a lot of money, I know he does it for the free tour trips. Yes, that's exactly right. Because Missouri and August. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nobody goes to Missouri for fun. Even when you're going there to go see the sites, most of the time you're there, you're like, okay, I know the Extermination order was bad, but also I'm kind of glad we don't live here anymore.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Number two, this is a series of questions, but I find them faith promoting and interesting. After all this talk on sources, I had a Book of Mormon question for you, but mostly Garrett. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I assume Nephi isn't commanded to write the small plates until later in his life. If he was a teenager when they left Jerusalem, this would put him anywhere between 30 and 50 years old and the source would be 12 to 41 years removed from when they left Jerusalem. This would make most of Nephi's writing a non contemporary source, but. But it would make it the source coming from a mature prophet rather than a teenager. For me this adds a lot of the meaning in certain ways. First, Nephi 1:1 reads differently coming from a full fledged prophet. Juxtaposing being highly favored of the Lord with nevertheless having seen many afflictions in my days. Take that, prosperity gospel. That adds a powerful meaning to an oft overlooked scripture. My dad taught Book of Mormon at the BYU and he always taught that the Lord prepared a better account in the small plates over the 116 pages as it was a spiritual and first person narrative accounting contrast to the stolen lest we trigger Garrett. That's. That's very funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Very, very sad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, you hate lost pages because they weren't lost, they were stolen. Unless we trigger Garrett, which were historically in third person account. But with all the talk of sources in the podcast it had, it has led me to wonder should we trust Nephi completely as a source? That's hilarious. I'm not saying he is not inspired or questioning his calling. Obviously Mormon thought it was good enough to tack on last minute, but it's not contemporary. Is there anything we should be careful interpreting or how we take that into account? Another example for me would be he seems pretty harsh on Laman and Lemuel and I think we give them a pretty unfair view in the church when likely they were just averagely righteous law of Moses abiding citizens that had a super annoying and self righteous little brother who with very new and radical religious views on revelation. I know I'm not the first person to ask this, but I would love to know your thoughts. I mean they did threaten to murder him several times.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't know. Threatened? They attempted to murder.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is fair.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they also attempted to murder their dad. Now look, I mean the greatest rendition of Lemuel comes from the living scriptures. We've referenced it before.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No question for.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

For whatever reason when they decided to, to, you know, cast Layman in, in that animated series, you know, he was, Layman was big and strong and angry and mean. And Lemuel hadn't hit puberty yet. Even though he was 35, he, he, he had this high pitched whitey voice. And the best line ever, I know we've quoted it before, is when they're, they're, they're taking all of the goods from Laban, you know, and all of their gold there, and there's a hole in his sack and so all the gold's actually falling out the back. It's like, it's a great Wile E. Coyote rendition actually of, I believe one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Of Laban's soldiers threw a knife that missed and just got the bag and cut it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. And so as he's running, he, in the highest pitch, squeakiest voice you've ever heard in your life, he goes, it's, it's getting lighter, I'm getting stronger. And, and in fact, all the gold was just falling out of the bag. But let me just say on this point, this is a really good point to make. If we treat the, the, the gold plates as a, a record that prophets created. And yes, what we have, we don't know how it compares to the stolen 116 pages, frankly, because we don't have the stolen 116 pages. For all I know, there might have been some similar things in there because Mormon's reading all of Nephi's accounts, so I mean, he probably has a pretty good idea of how Nephi feels about things. I do think, though, it does affect the way that you're thinking about things. When someone is creating a contemporary account, they do focus much more on the day to day things because they think those things really matter. When someone's creating a reminiscent account, they don't focus on day to day things as much because they already know that something that you thought was super important ended up not really mattering. It's kind of like I teach my kids, they don't listen to me because no teenager ever has, ever. But when you're going through high school, you really believe that literally nothing matters more than what's going on in high school. And then the day you walk across that stage for that diploma, legitimately, nothing matters. None of the relationship. You still hold on to some, but the clicks of groups of who's popular and who's not, and what does this person think of me? And they all immediately disappear. And so when someone's writing the history of their life, they don't do that. They don't say, boy, when I was a senior, I thought that, you know, my life was horrible and terrible because I just didn't have any friends. And. And then I graduated and I went to college and I found tons of friends and I realized that high school didn't matter at all. If you're keeping a daily journal, you might actually include stuff like that. So one thing reminiscent accounts do is they demonstrate for us what a person looking back on their life thinks is most important. Now, when I write a reminiscent account of myself on, I'm like, let me tell you, and I, Garrett, having been raised by goodly parents in large and stature, you know, I'm doing it with perhaps, perhaps I might have the inspiration of the Spirit. In this case, we're talking about a prophet who's writing as God gives him power and authority to write, knowing that it's going to be scripture. And a really good example of this is the New Testament. All of our gospels are written after the fact. And probably the gospel that's the most impactful to us, the Gospel of John, is clearly written decades later just by the phrases that are in it. Does that mean that John is not really a. You know, is he not really telling the story the right way? You will notice with the Gospel of John, he doesn't focus on some of the smaller things as much. What does he focus on? The biggest miracles and the fact that Jesus is divine. And so sometimes a reminiscent account cuts through the stuff that you really think matters when you're 15 and by the time you're 30, you realize, I made a list of 10 things that were most important to me when I was 15, and the only thing that's still on it is dipping a Hershey bar in peanut butter. That's it. The other 14 things are meaningless to me now. So you should read sources carefully in the sense that Nephi is looking back, but unlike just Joe Shmo me looking backwards, he's looking backwards with the insight and the inspiration of a prophet. But I do think that that is helpful in the sense that as Nephi looks back at his life, what does he think the most important things are to share? And given the fact that he's fought multiple wars with his apostate brother's kindred with the Lamanites, my guess is the apostasy of Laman and Lemuel is both something that personally has deeply wounded him and also is the best explanation for why they're in the situation. They are in this constant state of warfare. It's easy to look back on your life and see turning points. It's much more difficult to know when you are in the moment that it is a turning point. I think me serving a mission in Wisconsin was a turning point in my life. Now, while I was trudging through six feet of snow, having every person I ever talked to tell me that I wasn't a real Christian and that I was going to burn in hell, which sounded pretty good in the middle of a Wisconsin winter, like you say, there's lots of fire. Okay. I didn't know at that moment that each step I was taking in the snow filled tundra was actually, you know, shaping my metal on the anvil of faith to. To make something different than what I was. If you read my mission journals such as I kept, which I didn't do a very good job, I don't know that. I don't know what I'm eventually going to become. But if I were to write a history of myself now, I would absolutely highlight some of those experiences on my mission to say, those changed me, those made me better than I am. And I think Nephi has not only prophetic mantle, which allows him to know exactly what he should write, but he certainly has perspective. Most of our history of the church, most of it is written with Joseph working with scribes in 1838 and 1839. So Joseph looking back, and it does tend to focus on the things that Joseph sees as the biggest, most important things that happen. But if you read Joseph's journal, I mean, in his journal, he, he thinks going to New York City is a really big deal when he goes and he pontificates all about it, because at the moment it is a really big deal. It's just not a big deal. You know, eight or nine years later, it becomes less of a deal. So it's a great thought. I appreciate that. You also said here that you wanted to thank us for all the laughs, the testimonies, the insights and the betting lines and the angry Garrett throwdowns. And it's been a blessing for me. When I was younger, I was never interested in history and had a small fear in the back of my head about church history, thinking it might break or ruin my faith if I got it and knowing that there were some messy things I didn't understand. But the podcast has helped add my confidence and my testimony of the Prophet Joseph and has made it so much easier to see through the anti Mormon and unisom arguments. And thank you to Richard for bullying Garrett into not hiding his PhD under a bushel and turning him into a real ten talents kind of a guy that the Lord will someday give my buried talent to. Now that is. That is funny. I. I thank you so much for the kind thoughts. But also, I mean, really, Richard. Richard and Brady both did. They really did force me to do the podcast against my will. In fact, I kind of still feel like it's against my will.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. What do you mean? You use it. You use the tense that I do not believe was the correct. We. We just did. We just did chat. GPT versus the Standard of Truth podcast that. That. I don't know that we've received more email on any topic than maybe since the Prosperity Gospel, which, by the way, he did send a funny meme of an enormous rotund gentleman jumping off the top. The top of the top rope. Yes. In a wrestling. And that person is that heavy gentleman is the Book of Job. And there's a person underneath him that he's about to land on called the Prosperity Gospel. Very funny, very well done. But, yeah, so, yeah, I don't. Yeah, we. We still make you do things regularly that you're like, oh, I don't know. And part of it, Part of it is your is, you know, you honestly believe. Why would anyone ever want to listen to me like you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, you do believe it. Literally right now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, at the end of every great show, as always, Garrett, you know, really great. I think that was our best one. I do say that almost every time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It'S lost all its meaning. We'll have one where. Where the. The. The microphone craps out. We only get five minutes and we don't even get to say anything. And it'll be like, hey, that was the best show you've ever done.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, in that case, I would mean it, though that actually probably would be accurate because it was so short.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was only five minutes. So. Jacob, thank you so much for the question and thank you so much for listening to the podcast. I know that many of you came back very reluctantly after your bracket was busted, and the bonus episodes highlighting just how terrible we were with all of our picks made it even worse. But in all seriousness, I am grateful for the testimonies that you share with us, thankful for the emails that you send. I really appreciate them. Richard and I spend a lot of time working on the podcast because we are hoping that in some small way we might be able to contribute to the kingdom of God. And if we can do that, if we can help anyone feel more hope and more faith in the restoration of the gospel. That's what we're looking to do. So that's not going to be accepted by most Christians on X, however, you know. So sorry that won't work out as well as it could be. But I really do appreciate everyone's time and their well wishes. It is very, very kind and I'm humbled by the success that we have had and very grateful for everybody. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.