Dr. Richard Leduc (3:02)

There you go.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (3:03)

Because the verses related to Martin Harris paying for The Book of Mormon were, were related to the dating of the Revelation. That's why not just that we are haphazard and incoherent. Although I did talk to someone who said, you know, that they only listen to us on two times speed, but we're harder to understand, but they still do it just to get through it. So I don't know what, what speed most people listen to us on. Frankly, I think it might be better if you were to listen to us on like 0.5 speed. I mean, it would take longer, but it would be more meaningful.

Dr. Richard Leduc (3:48)

Slower. Boy, that sounds. That sounds rough.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (3:54)

Well, so let's go back to the original section heading of this when it was first published. It has a very unique section heading because many of the section headings are explanations of why the section came. If you look at the section headings when they're first published in the Book of Commandments, the 1833 publication, this one has this unique. A commandment of God and not of man to you, Martin, Given. Manchester, New York by Him who is eternal. The section heading itself seems to be part of almost of the revelation. And in fact, the way it's typeset that verse 1 includes the section heading. So if you look at the Book of Commandments now, if you look in the Scriptures today, verse one begins with I am Alpha and Omega. And it talks about this being a commandment of God and not of man to Martin Harris. But if you go to the earliest version that we have, which is the published Book of Commandments version, remember, I know no one wants to remember. They barely made it through part one. But remember in part one we talked about the fact that our earliest manuscript copy, the. The first pages are missing in the manuscript. And so we know it was in there. We know part of was in there, we know it was indexed. But the beginning of it is not in the Book of Commandments and Revelations, but in this first published version in the Book of Commandments, the one for verse one actually starts at the section heading itself, even though the section heading is italicized like the other section headings. So it says one like verse one, a commandment of God and not of man to you, Martin, given by him who is eternal. Yea, even I, I am he, the beginning and the end, yea, Alpha and Omega. So it's an interesting, it's an interesting aspect that it may even be that that first heading, that commandment of God, not of God, the commandment of God and not of man to Martin Harris, given by him who was eternal, is Even part of the actual revelation given by him who is eternal. It's possible that that's how that was spoken. Because a commandment of God and not of man to you, Martin, is the way that it's written out.

Dr. Richard Leduc (6:56)

So it's very different.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (6:57)

It's very different than the other section headings. Now we know that at least one thing that's on Martin Harris's mind is paying for the printing of the Book of Mormon. Maybe because he's thinking about paying for the printing of the Book of Mormon. He's also thinking about the fact that if you don't, you're going to cook. Oh boy, will you cook. You know, there is a fire coming and there's a barbecue because when they.

Dr. Richard Leduc (7:27)

Receive this, they're still of the belief of the good old fashioned hell. Good old fashioned Protestant hell.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (7:34)

Yeah. I mean, look for a Latter Day Saints, which there weren't any Latter Day Saints because there weren't even any members of the Church of Christ because there wasn't even a church yet because this is the summer of 1829. They were coming from various Protestant denominations. But all of those Protestant denominations, especially in the 19th century, highlighted the fact that there was a hell and you were going to go to it. I mean, that's even how Joseph describes his first vision. Right. I became worried about the welfare of my eternal soul. Well, you're not worried about the welfare of your soul because you're not sure whether you'll have seven gold, you know, napkins at the feast in heaven or six. You're worried about the welfare of your eternal soul because you're afraid you're going to burn in hell. You are worried about it because that's the message of Protestant Christianity in the 19th century. You had better change, you had better accept Jesus. Or if they're full blown Calvinists, there's nothing you can do if you haven't accepted Jesus. Welcome to burning in hell. You deserve it. Maybe stop sinning as much that you burn in hell at a slightly lower infinite temperature than other people who just continue in their sin. But it's at this point in the revelation that Martin must have had on his mind something about punishment. Now maybe it's because he's already faced this with God. The 1828 debacle of having lost the 116 pages. And I don't mean lost in the term of he couldn't find them, but I mean they are gone and we don't have them anymore. He allowed them to be stolen by not taking care of them. He had made a covenant with God and yet God forgave him and Joseph Smith, so maybe that's working on his mind. When I make a covenant with God and the judgment of it is to be eternal, what does that mean? If you go to verse five, he says, well, let's do verse four of. I guess I should probably read out of our current version instead of out of the Book of Commandments. That'd be very helpful for people. So let's start with verse three. It's verse four in the Book of Commandments. But you know what? Let's maybe do verse three in our actual doctrine and covenants today, retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. Now, Martin Harris has certainly read some of the Book of Mormon at this point. The Book of Mormon is not published, but he's been the scribe for much of the Book of Mormon, and there's pretty good evidence that they are at least discussing and passing around portions of the as yet unpublished manuscript. It would be very easy to find passages in the Book of Mormon that attribute the judgment having to do with your works that he could have gotten in other places or it could have been coming from the Bible. But this idea that everyone's going to be judged according to their works, and surely every man must repent or suffer. For I, God, am endless, wherefore I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woe shall go forth weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Now that's a reference to Jesus saying that there's going to be those found on the right hand and. And those on the left. And, you know, you don't want to be on the left hand. It's, you know, Matthew 25, when he's talking about the end times, it's the ones on the left that are, you know, depart ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, right? So you don't want to be on the left hand. You don't want to be the person who's going to that everlasting fire. That Matthew 25 passage, it's Matthew 25:41, if you want to look it up, is one of the reasons why Christians believe that hell is forever, that it's everlasting. That's the word that's used also the discussion of the rich man and Lazarus, that's another aspect of the Scriptures that causes Christians to believe that when you go to hell, it is horrible, it is burning. And like the rich man, he being in hell, right, looked up and he sees Lazarus and asks him to come, you know, dip his finger in water and cool his tongue, for I'm tormented in these flames. And then he's told that there is a gulf affixed between the two. So it's another reason why Christians believe that hell is forever, that there's no getting out of it, and that it is a lake of everlasting fire. Because you have Matthew 25 saying it's everlasting fire. And then you also have the. The story of the rich man and Lazarus and Luke saying that it's this fire. And then of course, you have the discussion of the bottomless pit in Revelation. So there's multiple reasons why hell seems pretty bad. And part of it being pretty bad isn't just the suffering. An essential aspect of hell for Christians in the 19th century and really before that, but, you know, in Joseph's day, is that it's forever. An essential aspect of the judgment is that it is forever. And so when the Lord says that people must repent or suffer, for I am endless, and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, it sure sounds like it's Presbyterian Hell all over again. And then the Lord begins to unfold one of the great glorious truths that had been lost from the earth, something that you would not be able to get out of just the Book of Mormon. Now, there are a couple places in the Book of Mormon that you might be able to discern this, but it is not expressly taught in the Book of Mormon. So here is radical doctrine being unfolded that is not in the Book of Mormon. This is not, hey, why don't you go preach the gospel and you know, the field is white already to harvest this is not God's work will not be frustrated like D&C3. This is radical new doctrine that would have hit Martin Harris and anyone else who heard it like a thunderbolt. Because right after God says that I revoke not the judgments, there'll be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment. But it is written, endless torment. And again, it is written eternal damnation. Wherefore it is more expressed than other scriptures. Why? Why is it it actually tells you right there that it might work upon the hearts of the children of Men altogether for my name's glory. Part of the reason why it is more express is to get you to change, is to impress upon you that if you don't repent, you are going to suffer. And that's what this is all about. Verse 4. If you don't repent, you are going to suffer. If you don't repent, there's going to be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. But you are wrong to conclude that suffering is forever. Wherefore I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet that you know even as mine apostles. So apparently the apostles understood this. Apparently this is a mystery that Jesus unfolded to them. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. For behold the mystery of godliness, how great is it? For behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for endless is my name. Wherefore? Eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment. Wherefore I command you to repent and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, in my name. So here is the beginning of an understanding. Now, it's not fleshed out here. I don't know what they would have known about eternal hell. Just from these verses. You have the Lord essentially giving them here a little and there this little tidbit. Hey, just so you're aware, it doesn't say that the suffering lasts forever. It says my judgments last forever because I am eternal. It says that the endless punishment is called endless punishment because I am endless and I'm the one who made that punishment. You have to repent for your sins because there will never be a time that you are free from punishment, from going through punishment for those sins. But it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment. Now, I wish I had a daily journal, you know, I wish Joseph Smith was like Captain Kirk, you know, Joseph's log, stardate. We've encountered the aliens. They seem to enjoy our company. I wish we had that so that we knew exactly how Joseph received it or how Martin received it. There certainly were people claiming universalists were at the time, that if we take Calvinism to its logical conclusion that God has all power and God can save or damn anyone that he wants, well, then good God will eventually save everyone, because God can, and so he will. Now, there's not a lot of scriptural basis for that. And universalists were treated very poorly by the mainline Christian groups. If you're thinking, oh, I know a Unitarian Universalist today. No, you don't know anything about a universalist in the 19th century. They're almost not even the same religion today. The Unitarian and Universalist churches merged in the 20th century. And, you know, there's a reason why Christians today hardly call them Christian because it is not required to believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that he's divine to be a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church. I mean, you know, Baptists would at least have to give it to Mormons on that one, right? At the very least, sure, you think, we think Jesus is a different person, but we certainly believe he's divine. We aren't arguing that Jesus is not divine. We're not arguing that Jesus isn't the Savior. None of us are saying, you know what? Jesus had some, like, pretty good thoughts. Like, I feel like. I mean, he was like a good teacher and stuff. I mean, he's kind of like Buddha, but, I mean, probably, like, not as good as Buddha, but he was like, okay, teacher. I mean, we aren't saying that every Latter Day Saint you talk to will fall all over themselves saying that there is no possible way for us to be saved without Jesus Christ. Now, a traditional Christian will dispute with us on that and say, well, but you believe that ordinances are essential, like Catholics. So therefore you're not a real. I mean, they'll argue about how we go about believing Jesus saves us. But it's pretty hard to argue that Latter Day Saints don't believe Jesus is essential in their salvation. And the modern Unitarian Universalist Church does not, just doesn't believe that. You don't have to believe that Jesus suffered and died for your sins to be a member. But back in the 19th century, those universalists did, and they believed that they took the idea of the Atonement to its logical conclusion, that if a good God performed a good sacrifice, then that good God will, because he's good, save everyone eventually. But that was thoroughly rejected by mainstream Christianity. So it's there, but it is not considered mainstream. In fact, it becomes kind of a philosopher's religion. Right. That someone who thinks pretty highly of themselves goes that direction when it comes to things.

Dr. Richard Leduc (22:08)

Do you remember the bit on the Simpsons where Reverend Lovejoy makes fun of the Unitarians? Do you remember that bit?

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (22:15)

Well, I remember the part where Barth and Ned's son Todd. Or is it Rod?

Dr. Richard Leduc (22:23)

Rod and Todd? Yeah, right.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (22:25)

Yeah. I think he actually is playing with both of them. So. So they all stay. They stay home because they're. I think because they're sick. No, no. They have custody of Bart. That's right.

Dr. Richard Leduc (22:35)

Oh, that's.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (22:36)

I was thinking of Lisa. Lisa stays home because she's sick, and. And she plays the. You know.

Dr. Richard Leduc (22:42)

The video game.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (22:43)

Yeah, the video game. And she, like, pretends to be sick, so she Keep playing. But I think Bart is in the custody of the Flanderses. And so he's like, hey, do you guys have anything cool, like, any video games? And the only video game they have is, like a. It's like a Bible video game where you're like. It's Bible Blasters, where you're, like, shooting Bibles at heathens, trying to convert them. You're like, oh, boom. Full conversion. And at one point, Bart shoots somebody, and he's like, yeah. And he's like, no. You know, Rod's like, no, you only winged him, and now he's a Unitarian.

Dr. Richard Leduc (23:20)

That's funny.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (23:21)

Well, there's glancing blow of the Bible.

Dr. Richard Leduc (23:24)

The one I'm thinking about was. Was when Lisa is going through kind of her skeptic phase. Right. And. And Reverend Lovejoy says. He essentially says, everything's a sin. You can't even really go to the. Technically, you're not supposed to go to the bathroom. Have you ever read the Bible?

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (23:39)

Everything's a sin in here. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Leduc (23:41)

And she's like, no, that can't be true. And he's like, well, I guess it depends. If you're Unitarian, you can believe anything you want. That's. That's fine.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (23:49)

I mean, I don't want to denigrate their belief system.

Dr. Richard Leduc (23:52)

Sure. The Simpsons.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (23:53)

But if you were to ask a unit. I actually. Actually had lunch with a Unitarian Universalist minister about a year and a half ago, and that was essentially what our conversation was. I'm like. I said, so is there anything that would exclude someone from your congregation? He's like, well, I mean, if they were disruptive, they were, you know. So they basically believe in a higher power. Yeah. Which, look, at least it's something. I would rather people believe that there is a higher power than nothing. And then hopefully we can, as President Hinckley said, take all the good that you have. And. Yeah, let us see if we can't add to it. Let's. Let's. Let's take a look at that. So, I don't know, back to the point. What this does to Joseph and Martin, as Joseph gives him this revelation because it is stressing that you are going to suffer for your sins, that you don't repent for but then it also stresses, hey, it isn't written that there's no end to torment. But then it doesn't elaborate on it. It doesn't say. And the reason why that doesn't there is no endless torment is because that's something that Joseph's not going to receive until later. Now, when we do doctrine covenants section 76, I will spend I don't know how many part episodes will doctrine covenant section 76 be?

Dr. Richard Leduc (25:30)

I mean, we did it in a free version, and I think it was two.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (25:35)

Okay, so I was really mailing it in then.

Dr. Richard Leduc (25:37)

You were. So my guess is at least it's the entire season.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (25:42)

Okay. I feel like once we get to some of these revelations, we'll spend more time on the revelations than we will on the rest of the podcast as a whole. And so the podcast will just become the Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 podcast brought to you by, you know, probably Jersey Mike subs, because that's where Richard's always trying to point our advertising dollars that we don't get of any kind. So I don't know exactly what's going on there. There is a tension in the sense that they're taught something that in some way suffering isn't forever, but they're not taught how. At the same time, the Lord wants to stress, probably especially to Martin, but the sins that you don't repent for. I mean, you are going to desperately wish you had repented because as you go down in the Revelation as it continues on further, he says he's commanded to repent. And verse 15, it says, Therefore I command you to repent. Repent, lest I smite you with the rod of my mouth and by my wrath and by my anger and your sufferings be sore. How sore, you know not. How exquisite, you know not. Yea, how hard to bear, you know not. I think when I read verse 15, you can read this like you're a 19th century Presbyterian minister. That's letting you know, you know, welcome to the barbecue. Or you can read it as a loving Lord wanting to let you know, hey, hey, there's a law that's already decreed, and that is that if you don't repent of your sins, you're going to suffer. I don't want you to suffer. The whole reason why I came to Earth is so you wouldn't suffer. I don't want you to suffer. But if you won't repent, then you're going to suffer. In many respects, I see this much more the way a pained father tries to talk to their son who won't listen to them, who thinks it's just fine to go out and get drunk or to fornicate on the weekends and that there's never going to be any time that they're going to end up having to pay the piper on it. I mean, it doesn't have to be that extreme. I mean, it can be advice that you give to your, to your kids where you say, listen, don't get too involved in this, because if you do, it's going to end up doing this. And they, of course, pay no attention to you, because no children ever, for any reason have ever listened to any kids ever, for any reason ever. But then eventually they're like, man, yeah, geez, I wish I would have listened to you. And I see the Lord desperately begging us to repent because he doesn't want us to suffer the same way. You tell your child not to put their hand in that fire because you know how bad it hurts to burn yourself with fire. And you don't want want them to have to experience that pain. You know it's going to happen. If they do it, you're telling them not to do it, and they look at you, smile, and then stick their hand into the flame. Because that's what kids do. Frankly, it's what all of us do in relation to our Heavenly Father, who gives us commandments, tells us what we need to do, and we proceed to do exactly the opposite and then act stunned, stunned when we're not happy. It is one of the more marvelous aspects of where we're at in the history of the world that the studies on happiness, on peace, on anxiety, on personal fulfillment are almost on the daily demonstrating that what the Lord taught through the mouth of his prophets and apostles in the guise of the proclamation on the family is true scientifically, not just true religiously. People believe things about what will bring them happiness that are not true and have never been true and statistically are not true. You can see studies that examine the levels of happiness that people have juxtaposed against their number of sexual partners that they've had in their life. And study after study after study shows the fewer sexual partners someone has had, the more likely they are to have happiness in their life. And yet the world tells you the exact opposite, right? The world tells you that the only way you can be happy and fulfilled is if you are the biggest dog there is at your job. And. And you know the problem with getting ahead in your career, kids, marriage and kids, they slow you down. I Mean, if I. If I. If I get married and I have kids, I'm not going to be able to take all the jobs I want to take. Or if you're a woman, if I get married and have kids, I'll have to stop working or I won't be able to devote as much time or it'll be distracting. And so people make decisions based upon their future happiness, based upon what the world tells them will bring them happiness. And yet the actual studies demonstrate that people have greater happiness and greater fulfillment when. When they are religious and attending church every week of any church, not just any, any religion. That they have greater happiness and fulfillment when they are married at younger ages than 35 for the first time, that they have greater happiness and fulfillment when they have children. And everything you see in the world today says, no, you won't be as happy. And yet the science coming back says, actually you'll be more happy. Well, that's not how I want my happiness. Okay, well, that's not how things work. Right? But again, you know, the child demanding that you let him eat an entire box of Hershey bars before they go to bed says they won't get sick. And lo and behold, two hours later, there they are, crying and wailing with a hurt stomach. We are like so many children with so many Hershey bars. We think we know what will make us happy, because so often we confuse leisure for happiness. We think momentary pleasure is happiness. And I'm not saying that they aren't related, but we think they're the same thing. And so we think if we pursue pleasure that the end result will be happiness. And yet study after study after study demonstrates the end of the pursuit of pleasure isn't happiness. It's a lack of fulfillment. It's an emptiness. And so I think in verse 15, the Lord is trying to say, listen, if you don't repent, you are going to wish that you did. And I know that you're going to wish that you did. Let's skip the step where you just wish that you did because you don't know what it's like to suffer for sins. If you did, you would repent. If you knew what the suffering was like, you would repent. And then to prove the point, he says, for behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent. Again, radical doctrine here in verse 16, that you don't think is radical doctrine, I, God, have suffered these things for all is something that would have been rejected by most of the Protestant denominations in Joseph Smith's time, or at least many of them, because Calvinist theology is of limited atonement, that Jesus died for the people that he would save. But he, of course, didn't die for the people that he didn't plan to save because then he would have failed. And Jesus doesn't fail. So Jesus only died for the people that God already predetermined before he ever created the world that he would save.

Dr. Richard Leduc (35:54)

It's interesting, we've had a couple of different episodes where we've played clips to. In order to take your dander at whatever level it is, and to. And to get it up and to get.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (36:06)

I feel like, yeah, you have a goal. You and apparently many listeners. Because a lot of listeners write in.

Dr. Richard Leduc (36:12)

Yeah.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (36:12)

They like it and say, richard, have him talk about this and make him mad.

Dr. Richard Leduc (36:16)

Well, but so it's interesting is you juxtapose the. And they're in a difficult spot because they're trying to answer a question without actual answers other than what is contained in the Bible. Right. Or their. Their understanding or interpretation of it. And. And here is. This is far more what Elder Kieran spoke about. The relentless, desperate search to bring us back just in the way that the Lord is speaking. It is just so different from the Protestant understanding of who Jesus is. It's dramatically different.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (36:58)

Yeah. And so this would have been radical to. I mean, again, there isn't a church yet. This isn't like, oh, this was in the Fourth General Conference. This is at earliest June or July of 1829, possibly August of 1829, where they may have already completed the translation of the Book of Mormon, but they haven't got one word of it typeset yet. And it's just the Knight family and their friends in Colesville, it's the Whitmer family in Fayette, and it's the Smith family in Palmyra who think Joseph Smith has plates and think that Joseph Smith has had visions, but there is no theology yet that has unfolded. What would they use for their reference to theology? Would they go cite something from the Book of Mormon that they can't read that hasn't been published yet? Sure, Joseph can teach them things that he's learned, but outside of the revelations he's received up to this point and the Book of Mormon text which is not available, they are learning in little bits at a time. And so verse 16 sounds like it's what you teach in nursery to a Latter Day Saint congregation today. But to the people, reading would be a huge statement of faith that Jesus suffered these Things for all that they might not suffer if they would repent. Verses 15 and 16 together are beautiful. Look, if you don't repent, you're going to suffer. I need you to repent so you don't suffer. And even worse, the reason why you need to repent so you don't suffer is I've already suffered this. I suffered so that you wouldn't suffer. I don't want you to suffer. But if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I. If you're ever wondering what is suffering like for sins that you don't repent of in the next life, we get the most express description that you will get in revealed in modern Scripture, which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. And would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink. Jesus is explaining that the suffering I went through was so great, you. You can't understand it. And if you won't repent, then at least temporarily, you're going to have to suffer in a similar manner. That's why you need to repent. Please, just repent so you don't suffer. Stop. So you don't suffer. Now, that Reference in verse 18, one of the most profound references there, it's a reference to Luke in the garden of Gethsemane. And he came out and went as he was wont to the Mount of Olives. And his disciples followed him. This is Luke 22, verse 39, where I'm starting. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast. I always wonder who's judging that. Like, I mean, yeah, if it's oral Hershiser, I mean, in his prime.

Dr. Richard Leduc (41:10)

Yeah. My guess is it's not for me, you know, I'm not going to get that very far.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (41:15)

Yeah, right. I mean, if the stones cast is like, well, you know, this guy hasn't even had Tommy John's. So it's. It's real close. But clearly they're trying to say, you know, he's a distance away, probably far enough that it, you know, know he's away from them where they can't quite hear him. He was withdrawn from them with stones cast. And he kneeled down and prayed, saying, father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me, nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. This is a powerful thing here inasmuch as. As far as I'm aware this is the only place in all of recorded Scripture where, at least for a moment, the will of the Father and the will of the Son are not the same thing. Where for this moment Jesus is asking his Father, if there is any other way than this. Let's do that. If there's any other way. And there appeared unto him an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him, verse 44. And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly. And his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Here you get this description of incredible suffering. The suffering here is so great that Jesus doesn't even want to do the will of the Father. How could Jesus ever not want to do the will of the Father? Now, of course he submits to the will of the Father, but he does ask if there is any way. And the Father appears to do everything he can. An angel comes to strengthen him. And he, being in agony, prayed the more earnestly. Sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling to the ground. Which suffering, back to D&C.19. Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. And would that I might not partake, might not drink the bitter cup and shrink. So sometimes Christians, our fellow Christians, wonder, why do Latter Day Saints focus so much on Gethsemane? Why don't Latter Day Saints focus more on the cross? Because most Christians focus on the suffering that, you know, the beating of Jesus, the scourging of him, the spitting on him, and then, of course, the nailing him to the cross. Why don't Latter Day Saints focus much more on that which. Look, this is all part of the atonement, the. The garden and the cross. It's not just that Jesus suffers for us, Jesus dies for us. So they. They are both essential aspects of the atonement Christ forms. But they wonder, why do we focus so much? I mean, we just added a hymn to our hymn book called Gethsemane. Why? Why do we add that? Why do we focus so much on it? Because it's there. We believe that this horrific suffering, both body and spirit, and this is not Joseph Smith saying, hey, I've thought a lot about this. And this is where Jesus suffered a lot. This is a revelation from the Lord, who in first person is saying, they must suffer even as I. Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and bleed at every pore. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and Finished my preparations unto the children of men. Wherefore I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power and that you confess your sins. Now notice again, why would God do something to compel someone to be humble when they don't repent again? Because he's desperate that they don't suffer the way that he suffered. What you get from Doctrine and Covenant Section 19 is a Savior who is desperate, desperate that you don't suffer. And if I can't get you to repent because I'm asking you, well, then I might send some things into your life to humble you. Anything I can do to get you to repent, that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I've spoken of, which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree, you tasted at the time I withdrew my spirit. Do you remember what that felt like? That's what it's like in the next life, if you haven't repented, I don't want you to suffer. And I command you that you preach naught but repentance. Why does Jesus desperately want people to repent? It's not because he's the king and he wants everyone to follow him. And if you don't, well, then I'm just going to smite you down because you better act the way that I do, because I'm amazing. It's because he knows that after this life we are going to suffer if we refuse to repent. And so he pleads with us to repent. He begs us to repent. He sends people and things into our lives trying to cause us to repent. All with the end game. I don't want you to suffer. I want you to not experience suffering. Especially because I've already suffered these things for all that they might not suffer if they would repent. Now. Interestingly, in verse 22, verse 21 says, show not these things to the world until it's wisdom in me. For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive. So some part of this the Lord already knows that while Joseph and Martin might be able to understand part of this as he teaches them, the rest of the world isn't ready yet to understand this. And maybe they won't be ready until Joseph receives Doctrine and Covenant Section 76. The reality is our earliest manuscript of this, our earliest complete manuscript is the published version in the Book of Commandments in 1833, which is after Joseph receives the vision, which is Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76. Maybe that vision needs to be revealed for people to be able to fully comprehend what's being taught. This revelation giving us not only insight into what Jesus does for us, what on this Easter Day Jesus did for us, but it also gives us insight, a firsthand account of what it is that the Lord went through when, when he did perform the atonement, he tells us. And it is, it's a stark thing that he tells us what that suffering was, was like. Now, there's one other aspect of this where modern revelation confirms what is disputed among Christian circles. If you go Back to Luke 22, the verses where it says, and there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him, and being in agony, he prayed more earnestly. And his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Now you notice that's a little, that is a little bit unclear. Was, as it were, great drops. So does that just mean he was sweating and his sweating was falling as if it was drops of blood, but it's not actually drops of blood. It's falling like blood would drop off of you if you were bleeding, meaning a much more rapid descent of drops than sweat. And so there are Christians today. You can go search this online, you will find many very much believing Christians who don't believe this means Jesus actually, you know, sweat, drops of blood, but that he sweat, he suffered terribly, and he sweat, as it were, drops of blood. The other thing that comes into play here is that these verses are missing from many of our earliest manuscripts of the New Testament. So this has caused both critics and, you know, Christians to say perhaps these verses were added later because they talk about Jesus suffering the sweating of blood. Perhaps these are not original to the text. Because, for instance, if you look at some of our earliest, our earliest codices, it's not in Codex Alexandrinus, it's not in Codex Vaticanus right now. It is in some of the later ones, like the second version of Sinai. Sinai. Oh man, I can't say that one. It's the codex that they found on Mount Sinai. Every time I try to say it, I can't say it. And every, you know, Greek scholar listening is like, oh, what an idiot.

Dr. Richard Leduc (53:12)

Think we're big with the Greek scholars.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (53:14)

I feel like we've just built a following. And Sinaiiticus, sorry is what it is, but I. The. The codex that was found in, on Mount Sinai, but. Or in the Sinai Peninsula. So it's not in some of the earliest and, and some would say our best manuscripts. It is in some of the earlier ones. And so it's led Some people to say, you know what? I think that entire verse about Jesus sweating blood, I think it was added or maybe it was a notation that was on one of the manuscripts because there was a tradition. I'll bet Jesus sweated blood and then someone took the notation and they included it into the actual manuscript and that's how it ends up in the manuscript. Now, let me argue against that.

Dr. Richard Leduc (54:13)

For.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (54:14)

A couple of reasons, and that is our earliest apologists, our earliest fathers. Right, Christian fathers, they reference this verse. And why does that matter? Well, because they actually have writings that are earlier than our earliest complete manuscripts that we're talking about. Okay, so our manuscripts that aren't including these verses. Well, they're written after Justin Martyr's writings and. Well, let's go see what Justin Martyr has to say. Should we just take a gander on Justin Martyr? I mean, a little light reading, Richard?

Dr. Richard Leduc (55:01)

Yeah, it's Happy Easter. Here's some Justin Martyr.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (55:04)

Yeah, I feel like what else brings a conclusion to Holy Week than a little Justin Martyr, which I'm sure is. Everyone's just pulling down off of their shelves right now. If you're wondering, it's his dialogue with Trypho now. You were wondering, Richard?

Dr. Richard Leduc (55:24)

No, I was wondering who it was, but you said it. President Oaks in the First Presidency invited us to start new traditions this Easter. I feel like Justin Martyr and his boy Trypho right in line with President Oaks.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (55:40)

Okay, so just. Thank you. That's great. Justin Martyr is an early Christian father. So he's believed to be essentially right at the turn of the first Christian century. So like 100 AD to like 151, 60 AD. Okay, so this is about as early as you can get of early Christian writings. And Trypho is a Hellenized Jew. Okay, so he's a Greek speaking Jewish person because. Because of the Diaspora, Right. There are Jews all over the Roman world. And Trypho is challenging the idea that Jesus could possibly be divine in part because, well, he was crucified. And the Bible says anyone who's, you know, nailed to a tree, Right. Anyone who's hung from a tree is cursed. So therefore Jesus couldn't possibly be the Savior. And in the process of making his arguments, he says this. He says, for in the memoirs, which I say were drawn up by his apostles and those who followed them, it is recorded that his sweat fell down like drops of blood while he was praying and saying, if it be possible, let this cup pass his heart and his bones trembling, his heart being like wax melting in his belly. In order that we may perceive that the Father wished his Son to really undergo, that he, being the Son of God, did not feel what was happening to him and inflicted on him. So part of what Justin's also arguing against is, of course, there's. There's the great contradiction in Christianity that Jesus is God, but also is man. And how does that actually work? And of course, there are Gnostics that are teaching, well, Jesus didn't actually feel any pain because he's God. And how could God feel any pain? Some are even going to say that he didn't even have a body, that he just made it look like he had a body. And so Justin's using this to demonstrate the godlike suffering of Jesus by saying that it's recorded in the scriptures that his sweat fell down like drops of blood. Well, what scriptures is Justin quoting if it's not in the scriptures? So that's pretty good evidence that it's there. That's not the only place. However, another later Christian heresy hunter is that they are often referred to is Irenaeus. So Irenaeus, obviously Richard was a, you know, bishop in Smyrna, right. In what is today Turkey, of course.

Dr. Richard Leduc (58:58)

Of course. Well, listen, I've heard of these people. I haven't heard of Trypho, although the early Christian fathers are kind of thrown under the bus a little bit as heretics later on. But so what. What is it that he said that.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (59:11)

So. So Irenaeus is directly challenging Gnostic thoughts. Okay, so the Valentinians are. Are a group of Christian Gnostics. And Gnostics are these Christians who believe that there's actually two different gods. Right. There's at least the Valentinians are. They believe that some things in the scriptures are from God, you know, actual God, and that others are from what they called the demiurge. And the demiurge was essentially this fall. This is demiurge, Not. No.

Dr. Richard Leduc (59:56)

So demiurge was mentioned by Truman Madsen in the Timeless Questions Gospel insight series. And the way that he said it always made me laugh.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (60:07)

So is, is that way.

Dr. Richard Leduc (60:09)

Well, I mean, in only the Truman G. Madsen sort of way, like he really emphasized.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (60:16)

Yeah, right. Urge.

Dr. Richard Leduc (60:18)

Yeah, it was great.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (60:19)

Well, so this is this belief that there's that there's this like, lesser God that. That did things in ways that they shouldn't. Because this whole Gnostic belief is that what's going on on the earth is like this divine accident. Right. That there's all these different, for lack of a better term, gods that are in the divine. What they called Pleroma. This is the most confusing thing that any.

Dr. Richard Leduc (60:51)

Yeah, no, yeah. All of a sudden I've already forgot his name. Typhus. What's his name?

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (60:58)

Trifo.

Dr. Richard Leduc (60:59)

Tryphone. Okay.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (61:01)

Suddenly Trifo makes a lot more sense.

Dr. Richard Leduc (61:03)

Yeah. In fairness, Justin Martyr. It sounds like Justin Martyr and his trusty dog Trypho.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (61:10)

No, no, they're actually antagonists.

Dr. Richard Leduc (61:11)

Yes, I know. Yes, quite.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (61:13)

Yes, yes. But this is an. Against heresies that Irenaeus is arguing against this gnostic belief, because the Gnostic belief is claiming aspects of Jesus's character that are false. And in it, again, to prove his point, he says. Then again, when they say the Lord's passion is a type of the extension of the Christ above, which he affected. So part of what these Gnostics were saying is that Christ wasn't really crucified. He just appeared to be crucified. And there's some Gnostic gospels that show that. Right. That Jesus is above the air, looking down on the man that they're crucifying, who's a different guy, and laughing because they think that they're crucifying him, but they're not, because they can't, because he doesn't really have a body. Right. So he's speaking to that. For when did Christ, the Christ above, and he means this spiritual entity, have vinegar and gall given him to drink? Or when was his raiment parted? Or when was he pierced and blood and water came forth? Or when did he sweat great drops of blood? So here he's making this argument, but quoting these verses that are in Luke, that are today disputed in Luke by some people. And there's one more early Christian father who is trying to make another argument against, again, against someone who he thinks is a heretic, and that's Hippolytus. So Hippolytus, he's arguing against a new type of. A different type of what is believed to be a heretic. And that's Noetis. And Noetis or Noetis is someone who believes in something that today we would call modalism. I don't know that very many of our listeners would call modalism, but. Or we might call it patra Passionism.

Dr. Richard Leduc (63:39)

That's what I call it.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (63:41)

Yeah. Oh, oh, clearly now, it made more sense before you were like, what? And then I patch a passionate, oh, I got this. So this is. It's related to this doctrine of how are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit related? Noetis is apparently teaching that Jesus is simply just a form of the Father Right. So look, you can go two ways of Jesus being God and God being God, and the Holy Spirit being God, right? You can go the direction of. Yet God is God and Jesus is a separate being that's also God. And the Holy Spirit is a separate being that's also God. The problem with going that direction is you stop being, in the traditional sense, a monotheist, which is death potion, poison, you know, it is the hemlock that you are taking if you are an early, you know, Jewish convert to Christianity or an early Christian who pride themselves on their monotheism. So patripassionism is a way of keeping only one God. And so it is related to Gnosticism in some regards. But the idea being that there's just God and God isn't a person, right? God isn't a dude, God is. God just is. And that God manifests himself in multiple different forms. And that when God manifests himself as Jesus, as the Son, as man, that it's actually God's manifestation in the form of Jesus. So there's still only one God, because God is, God is, and God's not a person. So God can do whatever God wants to do. And when God manifests himself as human, he manifests himself as Jesus. Which means in a technical way, if the Father is the Son, then the Father also suffered, Right? Because they're the same being. Well, that's patra passionism, because passion means suffering, right? Patra passionism. Patra meaning Father. The Father suffered because the Father and the Son are modalistically the same entity. That is the heresy he's arguing against. We've lost all of our listeners. But in his argument to try to prove his point, he says against these. These heretics as he sees them, that. And he who, as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow, showing that Jesus, you know, because Jesus slept in the boat and he, for this end came into the world, begs off the cup of suffering. Demonstrate. He's trying to demonstrate the human nature of Jesus. And in an agony he sweats blood and is strengthened by an angel who himself strengthens those who believe in him and taught men to despise death by his work. And he who knew what manner of man Judas was is betrayed by Judas. And he who is formally honored by him as God is condemned by Caiaphas. So he's trying to demonstrate the divine and human nature of Jesus in this argument. But for our purposes, how does he do it? By quoting that Jesus sweat blood, not that he sweat. And it kind of looked like blood, not that he sweat. And, you know, the drops came off like blood and not nothing at all, which was what it would be if those verses were added later. Whatever Justin Martyr and Irenaeus and Hippolytus are reading clearly has those verses in it because they're using them to prove points about the nature of Christ. So unwittingly. Right. I'm, I'm sure that Joseph Smith, you know, had just finished reading the Dialogue of Trifo. You know, he, he had, he had just put down his 34th book in against the Heresies with Irenaeus and then said, ah, yes, as I conjure this revelation, let's provide an answer to this controversy of whether or not Jesus actually sweat blood. But what we have as Latter Day Saints is more than what those Christians had because they knew that his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood. We know because of verse 18, to bleed at every pore. The agony is such, the suffering of body is such, that it is total in that suffering. I know we kind of got lost in the weeds defending the verses in Luke and defending how it is our Lord suffered in the garden. But hopefully the takeaway for you from Doctrine and Covenants Section 19 isn't, you know, when did this revelation take place? Because that's important, but not essential. It isn't, oh, this is how Martin Harris decided that he was going to pay for the Book of Mormon. Because that's important, but not essential. It isn't how these verses were interpreted by Irenaeus and Justin Martyr and other faithless Christians today and how they argue about it that's important. It's not essential. What is essential, I command you to repent. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all that they might not suffer if they would repent. Your Savior went through suffering. How exquisite. You know not. You can't comprehend even in the slightest part, the suffering that Jesus suffered for us through his suffering in the garden and then his crucifixion. And he suffered those things so that when we die, we don't have to suffer. How great the goodness is our God that Jesus made it possible that we can repent of sins because he suffered them for us. How horrible it is when there is a way for us to avoid the suffering and through ignorance, through sinfulness, through willfulness, through wagging our finger at President Nelson and saying, well, I'm not going to. He's not going to tell me what to do and what to believe, that we miss the message of Christianity. We miss the message of the point of the restoration, we know more about how it is that Jesus suffered for us, what he suffered for us and why he suffered for us than all of the other Christians praising His name today. It's not because we're special or smart. It's because that same Jesus who suffered in that garden and on that cross is the same Jesus who appeared to Joseph Smith and the same Jesus who gave him this revelation where that same Jesus explained just how terrible his own suffering was, was. And then begged Martin Harris and Joseph Smith and anyone who reads it, please repent. Please repent so that you don't suffer. The suffering is too much. You can't understand how bad the suffering is. Just repent. Just repent so you don't suffer. I've always thought that one of the most painful aspects for our Savior and for our Heavenly Father must be in the unrepentant sinner, because the ways already paid for them to come back. If you're listening right now and you're someone who's an unrepentant sinner, you've got sins that you're hanging on to, things in your past that you've never confessed or wherever you're at, this revelation calls out to you. Not a vengeful God, not a God who created you so that you could burn in hell forever, but a God who loves you so much that actually what he wants most is for you to avoid suffering. He wants it more than he wants anything else, to the point where Jesus took upon him all of your sufferings so that after this life, you wouldn't have to suffer if you would repent. Whatever is keeping you from embracing the Savior and not just loving him, but giving up all your sins to know him the way that. The way that Lamoni did, His Father did. Whatever is keeping you from doing that work this Easter on trying, trying to repent so that the Savior's extended hand can grab you up out of the water that you're sinking in and you won't have to suffer. Now you're going to suffer in this life. We all do, and we can't get away from it. But it's the life after this life that truly matters. And Jesus suffered those things so that you don't have to suffer. The great miracle of the empty tomb is that there is no permanency in death. Death has no sting. The grave has no victory, because all of us will be resurrected and all of us will live again. And the other aspect of it is that the Lord suffered these things for all, for every single person. Every person can avoid suffering if they turn to Jesus and they choose to repent. That is the message of hope, of Easter. It is the brightness that comes out of a darkened tomb. All of us, all of us can repent. All of us can become more like Jesus. And your God desperately calls out to you. Take my hand and you won't have to suffer the great message of the restoration. The reason why I love Joseph Smith so much is because I know Jesus and what Jesus did for me. Because of Joseph Smith, he received those revelations that taught me who my Savior was, what my Savior did for me, and who I am, what the purpose of this world is. So I hope you all have a blessed Easter. I hope you all take time to reconnect with the Lord. And I know we're not perfect. We're all sinners. Clearly I'm a sinner. You listen to the podcast. But God doesn't expect us to be perfect tomorrow. He just expects us to try and when we sin, to repent. I believe that that's in all of us. Everyone can change. And I believe it because the Lord taught it. And he taught it through the prophet Joseph. So thank you so much for joining us and I hope you have a blessed and happy Easter.

Dr. Richard Leduc (78:10)

Thank you for listening to Search these Commandments, a Standard of Truth podcast production of the revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standard wordoftruth.com.