S5E19 Saved by Grace

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast Summary Episode: S5E19 "Saved by Grace"
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-host: Dr. Richard Leduc
Release Date: May 1, 2025

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Introduction and Light Banter

The episode kicks off with Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat welcoming listeners to another installment of the "Standard of Truth" podcast, accompanied by his co-host Dr. Richard Leduc. The initial moments are filled with friendly banter about personal anecdotes, notably Dr. Leduc’s wife's pie-making prowess, which serves as a light-hearted segue into the episode's content.

Notable Quote:

[02:09] Dr. Richard Leduc: "Becky makes a mean series of pies. They're absolutely fantastic."

Missionary Updates and Logistical Matters

The hosts transition into discussing updates related to missionaries and upcoming church tours. Dr. Dirkmaat shares information about how missionaries access podcast content through a specialized Google Drive, ensuring they have resources despite internet restrictions during missions. The conversation also touches on personal stories about family members involved in missions, adding a personal touch to the discussion.

Notable Quote:

[05:20] Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat: "All we need is their missionary email address."

Listener Emails and Humorous Interactions

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to reading and responding to listener emails. These interactions are characterized by humor and personal stories, including playful exchanges about writing emails during labor and the challenges of encoding genuine messages amidst humorous attempts by listeners.

Notable Quote:

[27:12] Dr. Richard Leduc: "We don't give it to you for free."

Main Topic: The Church’s Perspective on Grace Since Joseph Smith

The core of the episode delves into the theological discussion on how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' (LDS) understanding of grace has evolved since the time of its founder, Joseph Smith. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc explore the distinctions between LDS teachings on grace and those of mainstream Protestantism, particularly Calvinism and Methodism.

Historical Context and Theological Foundations

Dr. Dirkmaat provides a historical overview, explaining that during Joseph Smith’s era, the prevalent Protestant belief emphasized preordained salvation through God's sovereign grace alone, without the necessity of works or ordinances. In contrast, LDS theology introduces the concept that while salvation is by grace, it also necessitates active participation through ordinances such as baptism and temple rites.

Notable Quote:

[12:16] Dr. Richard Leduc: "We don't become perfect and none of us are even close, that grace is what's actually going to take us over the finish line."

Samuel Smith’s Struggle with Salvation by Grace Alone

A compelling narrative is shared about Samuel Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, who initially struggles to reconcile the necessity of ordinances for salvation with his existing Protestant beliefs that salvation is solely by grace. This story underscores the radical shift LDS teachings represented at the time.

Notable Quote:

[48:46] Dr. Richard Leduc: "How could the brother of Joseph Smith, who's had all these incredible experiences hearing firsthand from a brother that he trusts, bristle at this idea?"

Modern Interpretations and Teachings on Grace

The discussion moves to contemporary teachings, highlighting how modern LDS discourse on grace has expanded compared to Joseph Smith’s time. The hosts note an increase in references to grace in recent church teachings and scriptures, emphasizing a balanced view that incorporates both divine grace and human agency.

Notable Quote:

[64:43] Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat: "We've always thought it was strange that the song Amazing Grace wasn't included in the hymn book until just recently."

Doctrine and Covenants Insights

Dr. Leduc references Doctrine and Covenants, particularly Section 45 and Section 93, to illustrate how grace is portrayed within LDS doctrine. The discussion emphasizes that while grace is fundamental to salvation, it operates in conjunction with personal righteousness and adherence to church ordinances.

Notable Quote:

[62:32] Dr. Richard Leduc: "We are saved by grace of Jesus Christ."

Concluding Thoughts on Grace and Salvation

The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of balancing faith and works within the LDS framework. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc advocate for a holistic approach to grace, where believers are encouraged to strive for personal improvement and adherence to church teachings while relying on divine grace for salvation.

Notable Quote:

[77:29] Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat: "Remember, God is far less concerned with who you were yesterday than who you're going to be tomorrow."

Closing Remarks

Dr. Dirkmaat thanks the listeners for tuning in and encourages them to share the episode with others who might benefit from its insights. The hosts sign off with a reminder of their gratitude and anticipation for future discussions.

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Key Takeaways

• Evolution of Grace: The LDS Church’s understanding of grace has evolved to incorporate both divine grace and essential ordinances, differentiating it from solely grace-based Protestant views.
• Historical Challenges: Early members like Samuel Smith grappled with integrating new LDS doctrines with existing religious beliefs, highlighting the radical nature of the Church's teachings.
• Modern Application: Contemporary teachings emphasize a balanced approach to grace, encouraging personal righteousness while relying on Christ’s atonement.
• Personal Stories: The blend of humor and personal anecdotes underscores the hosts' relatable approach to discussing complex theological topics.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the concept of grace within the LDS Church, juxtaposed against historical and modern theological perspectives. Through engaging dialogue and illustrative examples, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc provide listeners with a deeper understanding of how grace shapes the faith and practices of Latter-Day Saints.

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Excited to have a discussion today about Amazing Grace and other things. This is going to be a good old fashioned Phoebe Draper mailbag answering question type of episode, so I'm looking forward to it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, well, we aren't going to dwell on it, but we might. I mean, we say we're not going to dwell on things a lot and then we just do. Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What is it that we're not going to dwell on?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, we had an intense response to your wife's pie making capabilities.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Actually, I just floated out there that Becky makes 50 pies every Thanksgiving, which.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is a gross exaggeration because it's 30. 30, 24 to 32.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, for our family of seven, I feel like if most of which are on missions.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, but she's still making them. Yeah, but a lot of people were. I mean, I mean, Coach Singleton actually sent us an entire lesson, an entire object lesson using pie as, like, like, I mean, he, he gamed it out like he has an Etsy shop where he's selling lessons to people who are desperate on a Sunday morning, who have it prepared. That's what it was like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's going to be on one of the tours this year. That'll be a lot of fun.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He is. I mean, we might as well turn over to him, you know, most of the teaching. We also had some people, I believe Marla took issue with Richard's incorrect.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Pecan.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, pronunciation of pecan.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Pecan. Pecan. It's interesting. If she's listened to this, she's heard me poorly read emails for four or five years. How could she possibly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She says she's brand new to the podcast, trying to learn to like it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, she's not going to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like if. If the first takeaway you have is you feel like we're not saying things the way you want us to say them, you know, country roads, it's time to hit them. I mean, there's just no way it's gonna get better.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I am always surprised the number of People who email wishing that I would have said something that they would have said if they were me. And I'm like, well, I mean, I can't read your mind. How would I know what you would have said?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know, though. I do that often where I'm listening to a podcast, usually about sports or sports betting or how you shouldn't sports bet.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, interesting.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And there's, there's just a huge genre of podcasts on how sports betting. But I mean, they hit all the lines, but they're like, don't do it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Don't ever do it. Hey, President hinckley taught in 2005 that you're not supposed to bet. Do you, do you do that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I do that. I absolutely do that. It's very well received. But no. So I'll listen to that. Like, I'll. I listen to a lot of sports podcasts and stuff. Right. And so I'll be listening to those and I know what they should say or what would be a funny line to say or what they're trying to think of. And maybe they're, they're having a stupor of thought. And so I often think, oh, you should say this, whatever. You don't do that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I mean, I, I guess I might.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When you're reading through Archives of Film.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm like, I'm like, why in the world Would William McClellan say this? You should have obviously said this. What do you think, Amisol Lyman? I mean, I. So essentially you're asking me, do I have a multiple personality schizophrenia? That's what you're asking?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I already know the answer, but yeah. Well then, so no, but thank you for all of the. And Becky makes. She makes a mean series of pies. They're absolutely fantastic. She's an excellent baker. She teaches a foods class up at. Or a baking class. She teaches multiple classes up in the facts department of a school up north in a high school where she is treated with tremendous respect as a high school teacher. That's my understanding.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I've always heard that about teenagers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. So anyway, yeah, she's incredible at that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so Becky's pie making prowess notwithstanding, we're going to move on to some of our other emails we have. Once again, thank you so much everyone who's emailed. I know that kind of hurts people's feelings that we don't read every single email. We legitimately can't. We are receiving more than 100 emails a week.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So we read them. We don't read them out loud. We read every One of them, yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But it is hard to respond on the podcast. And when I say we don't read.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Them out loud, I have to obviously read them out loud because I don't have the ability to read to myself.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So I do read them all out lo the air. Yeah, my lips are moving.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm following it with my finger as I'm reading out loud. Seven. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so we have a couple. Let's. You know, one of my. One of my favorite things to see in this podcast of ours, you know, in this. This little podcast of ours, is the number of missionaries that have really just dove into the gospel and church history. And some of them, when they have nothing better to do, actually listen to the podcast. And so I thought we'd share that. And so if you're wondering, missionaries don't generally have the ability to access the Internet. They can't, like, use Google. Right. And so they can't go on YouTube most of the time. Although I know some missions have different rules, or more likely your missionaries lying to you about what their rules are. I mean, there's. It's one of two things. It's either they're not allowed to do it or. No, like my mission president said, we could, like, date and stuff. Like, there's always that. There's always the issue of a missionary may not be completely honest with you. So what we do is all of our episodes and all the premium ones we make available free on a Google Drive that they are allowed to access just by sending in your missionary email address. So when we talk about the missionaries and signing up, people are like, how do I get someone signed up? All we need is their missionary email address. Richard will add them to the Google Drive sometime in the next three months. He'll then upload episodes to that Google Drive sometime after your son or daughter's home from their mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's right. When it seems like I'm not paying attention during episodes, it's just that I'm adding missionaries. Garrett. It's not that I'm bored and not paying attention.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, you should see his eyes glaze over.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Speaking of that, though, by the way, we did finally hear back on when. When our son Rigdon comes home. Now, Rigdon is the son in Lima East Mission in Peru, where he has been. He's been robbed several times. And I think those experiences are funnier than I probably should. But, you know, he's a fairly confident kid. Bring him down a peg. I feel like it's good for him. So we finally got his travel plans back. My wife and I have a trip planned and he arrives home three hours before we have to fly out for our trip.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So your trip to what? Tucson?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it. Now I don't want to go. I have to go. It's a work trip. It's something that I don't want to do. But it's Greece and Turkey and Egypt again. I'm forced to go. It's. It's a, it's a crying shame, thanks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To my listeners, that Richard was in Alaska, I believe. Or was it the Caribbean?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it was Alaska.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I. Richard was in Alaska when Rigdon went to the mtc. He was, he was literally not there dropping him off.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, his friends had to take him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, his friends drove him to the mtc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, so his friends did. Now the difference here though, Garrett, is we will see him for three hours. Well, I'm a little Type A, so I'm going to want to get through security. So we'll see him for about, about 15, 20 minutes. That's right. My favorite Instagram reels of all time are making fun of dads that like it's a 7:30 flight and they're running at 5am to get to the airport. So anyway, yeah, so we, we will see him. He said all he wants is a Jersey Mike sandwich because, you know, the food has been different. So. So we'll see him. We'll probably have to pick the Jersey mics up, bring it to the airport, eat it there next to where people come out, give him a hug, say I love you, and then we will see him in Missouri.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So that's funny.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's very good. Anyway, so we're very excited about that as we move on with Mission. By the way, Garrett, there was one other thing to speak of really quick before we get into Elder Wheeler's email, is that we are sold out on the 2026 Kirtland Palmyra tour. That one sold like hotcakes. It was very exciting. And so there is still some availability in the Nauvoo Missouri tour for 2026. But you opened up a second Palmyra Kirtland tour.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The demand was such and so many people contacted that we just, we just essentially on a whim, scheduled another tour to Gettysburg, Palmyra, Kirtland. And so that's going to be in July. So July 12th. So that's up on the website now. So. And it is also already, it is already going very quickly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So jumping straight in to the Elder Wheeler email. Hello, my favorite podcast creators. I'm a missionary in Texas with two Things to say first. Thank you so much. A lot of people have brought up parts of the church that would have been alarming if it wasn't for what I was listening to before my mission. And that leads to the second he heard prepping.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He was prepping second. I heard that, y'all. So now, now we have validation that he is serving in Texas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, if anyone says y'all, we know they're in Texas. Or if they say something about how much they love their own state, it's all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Or they say pecan.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nope, nope, nope. Don't go down that road.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Pecan. They would say pecan in Texas. By the way, I have a picture of me next to the world's largest pecan.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Marvel's not gonna want to see that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I heard that y'all have a Google Drive with the premium content for missionaries. What do I have to do to get that? Well, Elder Wheeler just sending that email. Not even requesting it really, but just sending the email. I actually sent it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or you can be in labor. Don't.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We don't give it to him for free. No, no, we'll read your email. We're not going to give it to you for free.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah, you got to have like. You got a quintuplets for that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We do have. We do have a thing where we do give free content if you have quintuplets. That's. That's a long standing policy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, we've. I mean, we're gonna have to go back and revise it, but.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this next one comes to us from Brad. Hello. Doctors Dirkmaud and Leduc, longtime Litner, first time caller, former missionary from Arizona, Tempe Mission in Parenthetically Reed, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Southwest Mission. That's fellow and fellow doctor, parenthetically MD.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, so a real doctor then.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, finally you say that. Some might say that makes me a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Real one that people actually pay attention to or listen to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's funny when Garrett says it, Brad, but when you throw it in our face like that, it's still funny. Some might say that makes me a real doctor. I say that it makes me extremely helpful in select circumstances, I. E. In the newborn icu. So he's probably a dermatologist then, and significantly less so in others. In fact, it makes me less than useful when it comes to 19th century American religious history. While I'm not writing this email while in labor, I do listen to the podcast in between resuscitating newborns after mothers are done laboring. You know what? We're gonna count that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why did you laugh? Why did you laugh at that? That is the worst timed laugh of all time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I laughed because I fumbled in the. Yeah, no, that was terrible. I laughed that I fumbled in the email and I laughed at that. So, first of all, the newborns have been resuscitated. I think that's something to celebrate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

By the way, it seemed like you were laughing at the idea, oh, you have to help babies breathe. That's what you sounded like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I laughed at the fact that I fumbled it and also that he's not in labor, but he's around labor. Yeah, we're going to cut that out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we'll cut that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We'll fix it in post.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we'll cut it from the tape.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, very good. Thanks for not making me sound like a psychopath. Here's to hoping that is adjacent enough to writing an email while in labor to get a shout out on the podcast. Well, it is. Brad, I have a burning question or Dr. Brad that I'm hoping for your help with. I already asked ChatGPT if you thought about asking Grok. By the way, Grok 3 is pretty decent. And while I didn't feel terrible, I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Just had an argument with Grok yesterday.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, did you?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's very good. And while it didn't, what was it about?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, you know, the usual early Christian history and historianism, things like that. The kinds of things that you want to have a discussion with Brock about. It's like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's like you, you run out of people to pick fights with.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I just, I don't like it when it gives false answers and then I have to say, well, what about this? Oh, you're right. I guess that is a major point. Well, why did you say that then? If it's a major point, say it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, so my. The question requires a bit of background. You have to bear with me. I have an almost three year old son. For the vast majority of his long life, his favorite thing in the world has been flags. This has meant that I've spent far more time than I would care to admit thinking about flags, pointing out flags and answering questions about flags. Despite having very little knowledge myself. This has led me to ponder my question. Has the church ever had an official flag? I have found accounts alluding to the possibility. One in particular is a recounting of Brigham Young's funeral by a non member from Ogden who apparently only attended because he wanted to make sure he was dead. I don't know why I laughed at that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It sounds like people from Ogden. That's where Becky teaches, by the way.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, she's. That's funny. He described a blue flag with white stripes and 12 stars surrounding a larger 13th star. I apologize for my lengthy email. Much of my preamble was trying to use enough inside joke hooks to get onto the. Well done, Brad. You did?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, like the resuscitating infants joke.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's what Richard apparently put you on the air for.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, you put me in stitches, which you're familiar with. Your podcast is always so insightful and between the self deprecation and has helped me think more critically about church history, so. So, Garrett, a church's flag. Fun with flags.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Fun with flags, Young Sheldon. Yeah, so first of all, I think since your son's only three, you can tell him whatever you want. Yeah, I mean, the. The reality is that if he's, you know, if he's asking you, dad, what flag is that? You can tell him, you know, Burkina Faso.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He doesn't know that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Only works for a few more years and then he's going to catch on. But hopefully by then he's into something else. Like dinosaurs. And then you can lie to him about what dinosaurs they are. But there is, I don't know if you'd call it an official church flag. It's more about a Latter Day Saint people flag. When the Latter Day Saints leave the United States, they are leaving the United States. In fact, they're deliberately leaving the United States. When they are having debates about where they could settle, when they leave, they consider some options. One option was they had negotiated quite favorably with some of the Cherokee Indians in American Indian territory at the time, one of the minor factions, and it sounded like they would be willing to let the Latter Day Saints come live with them on their land. But because it was still technically part of the United States, they decided not to go there. Similarly, Texas, you know, for the y'alls, the church considered very greatly. Joseph Smith sent ambassadors to go negotiate with the President of the Republic of Texas, Sam Houston. And there is a really good chance that the church might have moved to the Republic of Texas. But then the Republic of Texas was annexed by the United States, and they immediately stopped considering it. Not because Sam Houston was like, hey, you can't come here anymore. No, he would still wanted them to come. It's that for the Latter Day Saints, the whole point was to get outside of the United States. It's what Joseph had come, the conclusion he had come to before he was murdered. And his murder and the subsequent mobocratic activities and Murders of other Latter Day Saints only further reinforced to the Saints that they needed to get out. And so their plan was to go to Mexico after those other options didn't work out. And they were, you know, moving into Mexico without the consent of the Mexican government. But they were also moving to a place that was not inhabited by any permanent Mexican settlements. In fact, the only Mexicans that were ever in the parts of Utah where the Saints will settle were slave traders, primarily some fur trappers, but primarily slave traders who would come and purchase Indian slave children from the Utes and the Navajo and other Native American tribes. And so there was no permanent settlement. And back in the day, you know, unsettled on land was considered a lot more open. So they go expecting to set up their own kingdom. And as such, they create a flag. Now, this flag, you could see a replica of it on Ensign Peak. Ensign Peak, where they look over the valley, Right. The Enzyme Peak has this flag which is as described, this blue and white flag with white and blue stripes with a white field with stars, 12 stars symbolizing the 12 tribes of Israel, surrounding a star in the middle symbolizing Christ. And that flag is not an official flag. Of course, when Deseret becomes a territory, they're going to adopt the American flag because they become a US Territory. But it is still something that these early Latter Day Saints, they kind of hold on to as a way of saying this was the kingdom of God. Right. The kingdom of God mattered more than these other political ideas. And so I'm not surprised that it was displayed. In fact, I think we have several accounts of Heber C. Kimball putting the flag outside of his window and it being flown on flag poles. So if you want to see, like I said, you can probably go to the Ensign Peak page, and you'd actually be able to find an image of that flag. Richard and I both have one of these flags.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And we like to. Without really telling anyone what we're doing on Pioneer Day, Richard likes to fly the Mexican flag and the flag of the kingdom. The Council of 50 Flag, it's true.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When I first did, wasn't received quite as well because it is interesting. I've always. It's one of my favorite things. It's just the funniest thing to me that on Pioneer Day, the day that we celebrate leaving the United States, that, you know, like when Scouts used to put flags up in everybody's, you know, whatever, it's a fundraiser. There's just American flags everywhere. And I'm like, that's hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It would actually be the most stunning thing, one of the most stunning things, if you were to grab someone from 1850 Utah, and transport them to 2025 Utah on the 24th of July. Sure, cars would. Would be new to them, but the. One of the things that would stun them the most is that the way people celebrate Pioneer Day is essentially like its 4th of July Part 2. All the same flags, all the same patriotic sentiment. And they're like, I don't think you guys realize why we left.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I love the idea that a person is transplanted from 1850 to 2025. There's planes, there's cars, there's cell phones, there's TVs. And they're like, what's the deal with all these American flags? And why are there so many stars on the American flag?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'll tell you what. If. If your dad had been murdered by Americans and the American government utterly unwilling to do anything about it, and you buried two kids on the way across the plains, my guess is you would probably have some pretty visceral feelings towards that flag.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I agree with you. And I also believe that they would be very concerned about cell phones, so the flag would be at least third.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But, yeah, I would tell them, look, it's a portable telegraph that has. That could talk to you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it is. It is crazy. So, yeah, so we fly that flag every. Every Pioneer Day. And obviously, we're proud Americans, but on that day, we're trying to say, hey.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, what I'm celebrating is that thousands of our ancestors, and if not our direct ancestors, our spiritual ancestors, had the courage to walk well over 1500 miles to another country in search of trying to find a place to find freedom.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. For me, it is the spiritual one, because we were from Quebec and Belarus. We came.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. And if you were to put a flag up, it'd be some kind of Fleur de Lis.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Flag in the. Fleur de Lis?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it'd be a royal French flag back from when, like, you know, Louis Philippe was the king. That's what I would guess.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Anyway, it was a very good question, Dr. Brad. Thank you very much for that. Now, Garrett, I have done some forensic work on this next one, and I have been able to validate that it is real and that the picture lines up to the timeline of the. I may or may not have paid for a subscription that is able to do that to photos.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, let's find out. Let's find out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, so this last email is. Now we have Garrett, remind us of the policy Was it Rebecca?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Rebecca started our policy when she first sent us an email. She typed an email while she was currently in labor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In labor. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then we read her email. And so the next time she had a baby, years later, she again emailed while she was in labor, and we read both emails on the air. And so I think we adopted a policy that if you email us while you are actually in labor, now we've gotten a couple where people are like, oh, my time's really close. Nope, nope, nope. If you aren't in a hospital or with a midwife, we don't want to hear about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And we don't. And so this is going to come up, but we're on the fence whether an epidural has or has not yet been administered. If we should count it, we're on the fence on this. I think we're going to let this one slide.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It seems like the emails are less angry when the epidural's already kicked in.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's been my experience.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right. So dear Garrett and what's his name.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So this is not Rebecca. This is someone else.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Yes. This is a. It's a copycat league. Garrett. I'm currently in labor, getting ready to deliver our first child. My husband is a devoted listener to your podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But not her.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, she's not. This is the best part.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is the. This is the best wife in the world.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Greatest wife of all wives. This is insanely incredible. She's in labor. She doesn't listen to the show. If she did, she wouldn't like it because she probably has excellent taste. Although I'm questioning based on the choice of husband, but I think. I think that. Yeah. What an incredible wife. I've heard snippets. When he rudely doesn't. Sorry, Sorry. When he rudely doesn't use his headphones, he said that an email written by someone in labor will be answered. It will be. So I'm helping him out. Of course. This email needs a question for you to answer, and it's inspired by our daughter's name, Grace. What a beautiful name. My husband will take over from here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. So I'm assuming at that point the labor pains kicked up, and then he just got on and he's ignoring everything.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, he's like, hey, hey, introduce me, introduce me, introduce me. And then, you know, then we're obligated, obviously. We don't care about Caleb. We have no interest in reading his email. And he uses his wife masterfully. And his wife's a real mensch to do this and their lovely daughter Grace. I'm kidding, of course Caleb, about you. Well, actually, maybe not. Hey there, Caleb. Here I was listening to the podcast yesterday as we you're getting ready for the hospital when you mentioned the standard of truth guarantee. If you want your email read on air, you got to either be a missionary from Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission or currently be in labor. I served in the Pittsburgh South Mission, Ghana, so that wasn't going to work. But my wife was conveniently about to go into labor so I convinced coerced her into writing the first part of this email. Just so. Just so dang funny, Caleb. It really is. I will say for all the husbands out there trying to get their wives to type out emails during labor, the key is timing. That's all.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I just. I want to envision a world where there are right now, as we speak, dozens of husbands desperately trying to convince their wives to please write an email so that it will be read on my podcast. I listen to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't believe there's anyone that I love more than Caleb right now. That is so stinking funny. Wait to broach the subject until after the epidural is in. That's when she's the most willing to participate. As a side note, this is the best time to listen to the podcast with her as the best cure for Garrett and Richard's terrible podcast is heavy doses of painkillers.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. Yeah, that is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We are huge. We are huge in the fentanyl communities.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And also true.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's right. So for our question, we've decided to name our daughter Grace because it's one of our favorite gospel concepts. That's a beautiful name for a daughter, by the way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

With that in mind, our question is this. How has the church's perspective on grace changed since the time of Joseph Smith? We've always thought it was strange that the song Amazing Grace wasn't included in the hymn book until just recently. Did Joseph Smith and the early members of the church think about grace the way we do? And how did their understanding of grace compare with mainstream Christianity at the time? All jokes aside, you guys are awesome. We are always inspired by your faith and devotion to the Savior, Caleb and Jaden. P.S. here's proof that Jaden is in labor. Baby photos pending. So we are excited to see those baby photos.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I will just point out Caleb has not yet produced any baby photos.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's possible the entire thing was staged. Am I calling Jaden a liar? Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, anyone can get into a hospital room, get into a Hospital bed, make it look like they're in the labor and delivery part of a hospital and take a picture. Anyone can do that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Do we know that they aren't in cahoots with Dr. Brad, by the way? We don't know that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How would we know? Dr. Brad's been turning over these kinds of faux labors over and over again.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

For years as he's resuscitating babies, which is hilarious. So as. So they did send in a photo, and I ran it through and analyzed the photo. So the photo was sent on Wednesday, April 16 at 10:17am the photo was taken on April 16 at 10:15am so the picture was taken two minutes before the email was sent. This suggests that while we can't prove that Jaden was in labor, we can verify that she was in a hospital bed with her husband taking a selfie.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, I feel like that it could be staged. But at any rate, let's talk about this question. So I think grace should be one of all of our favorite gospel concepts. First of all, the idea of grace, because it's how we're saved. How has the church's perspective on grace changed? Well, so one of the things that occurs is that anything that is taught, it doesn't get taught in a vacuum. What people teach, even on the local level in a local ward, is actually based on things that are important to the people in that local ward. I mean, I don't know if any of you have been in a Relief Society presidency or a bishopric and you've had conversations about how, you know what? We've got sisters in our ward who are really struggling with X. We need to have a lesson on this, Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know what? We've got people in our ward who are really struggling with this. We need to have someone speak in sacrament on this. Right? I mean, so even on a local level, some of the curriculum or the doctrine that's taught each week at the church is at least somewhat dictated by what local leaders feel inspired that their members need now take that from a ward level and start extrapolating out. The most shocking aspect of Latter Day Saint theology in its earliest days is not, frankly. I mean, maybe it is for some people, but it is not the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is a pretty shocking thing. Hey, here's additional scripture. What appears to be even more shocking is the rejection of the Protestant idea. Because, look, Methodists and Presbyterians, they can't even agree on, you know, they can't even agree on. On Whether or not LeBron James is on the Lakers, okay? They, they disagree on every aspect of salvation. A Presbyterian believes that the only way you're saved is that God chose to save you before you were ever even created. He chose to save you in eternity's past. You didn't exist. But he knew, because he knows everything, that he would eventually create you and that when he created you, he would give you the gift of faith and therefore you would be saved. And a Methodist believes that salvation, you have to participate in it, that if you don't accept the grace extended to you by God, that you're going to go to hell. So they disagree on everything except one thing, and that is that they both believe that there are no works necessary for salvation. The only thing that saves is grace. Now, that goes all the way back to Martin Luther. Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism. And every, I mean, at least mainline Protestant theologians since then has simply expanded upon what Martin Luther and then John Calvin stated. And then, of course, you know, John Wesley. And that is salvation comes by faith and grace alone. Grace alone, not grace because I was baptized. Not grace because I followed several things and ordinances and I lived a good life, and therefore I have grace. No, they are arguing that salvation is literally nothing of yourself. And that idea of grace, God's sovereign grace, that God gives this gift of grace so that people believe, would be the primary understanding of grace in Joseph Smith's world. So most people would be using the term grace in Joseph Smith's world, would be using it in terms of God choosing to save you, not because of anything that you have done. God choosing to save you not because you studied the Bible, not because you're good, not because you were baptized, not because you, you know, follow the catechisms, but because he did. And so you are wholly dependent. The only mover, the only person who gets to decide anything about salvation is God. And in that sense, for Calvinists especially, grace is a completely free gift. And I know this is tough because for a Latter Day Saint, when you think about having faith, what you think about is this. Well, I read the Book of Mormon in the Bible and then I prayed about it. And then I, you know, I started trying to live the way that the Book of Mormon and Bible told me to live. And I started to gain a testimony and I felt the Holy Spirit tell me that it was true. And that's how I gained a testimony. Right, that's. That's pretty standard. Is that you did something, you participated in your gaining of faith. Faith didn't just. You weren't Just walking down the road, someone winged you with a block that said faith, and you just got up like, I'm saved. That didn't happen. You made decisions and you acted on it. In Joseph Smith's world, the vast majority of Christians he would have been around, do not believe that that is how faith comes. They believe that God has already decided who's going to be saved and that God will at some point, because his will is unstoppable. He will manifest that by giving the gift of faith to somebody. And because they have that gift of faith, they will then be saved by the grace of Jesus. So why do I spend time talking about that? Because your wife wanted, you know, you to know how terrible the podcast was. But second of all, in a world where people are stunned, stunned that someone is claiming that any ordinances are essential for salvation, what would you expect the teaching to be like? We actually have a really good example of this. Samuel Smith. Okay, so Joseph and Oliver they. Samuel Smith, Joseph's brother. Okay, Samuel Smith seems to be a 100% believer in Joseph from the get go. I don't know when he hears about the first vision, but I know he's all on board with Joseph saying that an angel has appeared to him. He is all on board with Joseph saying that that angel has appeared multiple times, that that angel has told him that there are gold plates and that on those gold plates are writings of other prophets. Samuel Smith actually takes Oliver Cowdery down to Harmony to, to serve as the scribe for Joseph. Samuel is all in. Until. Until in 1829. In May of 1829, Joseph and Oliver receive the, the. The. The first priesthood, the lesser priesthood from, from John the Baptist. And the reason why they, they asked about it was because they had just translated Third Nephi, where the Lord not only commands baptism completes the Couplet from Mark 16:16 that said, Whosoever believeth and. And is baptized shall be saved. And whosoever believeth not shall be damned. Well, the Lord completes that in, in Third Nephi. Whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved. And whosoever believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. Well, they, they come to a pretty stark realization as they're translating. And I know this sounds, this, it sounds weird to everyone listening because if you're a Latter Day Saint, there was never a time in your growing up life that you didn't know that baptism was essential for salvation. Baptism is the most familiar thing to you of any of the ordinances of the church. I mean frankly, the Lord's Supper, the sacrament is even more familiar to you, but you don't often think of it as an ordinance. I think when you're a kid, you're just like, hey, bread. But baptism, that it's essential. You hardly ever think about, well, they live in a world where a grand total of nobody who's not a Catholic believes that baptism is essential. And so as they're translating the Book of Mormon and they read off the words where the Lord definitively says it's essential, and then he goes a step further and says, not only is it essential, you have to be baptized in the right way. These are the words that you have to say when you're baptized. And not only do you have to say these right words, it has to be done by someone that I give authority to. It almost feels like panic sets in for Oliver Cowdery. I have not been baptized by proper authority or in the proper way. How can we do that? I have to be baptized. And they go out and they pray, and that's when John the Baptist comes and gives them this authority. Well, so we always think about, you know, that. That story as, you know, what an amazing, you know, experience that was. But a few days later, and it's only a couple days later, after they baptize one another, Samuel Smith, the same Samuel Smith who brought all over Calvary down, he comes back down to Harmony to see how they're doing. And it's such a stark thing. I think I'll actually. I think I'll actually read it. So this is from Joseph Smith's history. And he says, about this time, my brother Samuel Smith came to visit us. So this is right after their baptism. We informed him of what the Lord was about to do for the children of men and to reason with him out of the Bible. We also showed him that part of the work that we had translated. So now, so Samuel comes down and they're like, look what Jesus said that we just translated. He said he appeared to the people in America and this is what he told them and labored to persuade him concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, which was now about to be revealed in its fullness. He was not, however, very easily persuaded by these things. So Samuel Smith, who has embraced the fact that an angel has repeatedly come to visit his brother, has embraced the fact that his brother has gold plates that contain writings of ancient prophets. So Samuel Smith is already well off of the beaten path of, okay, Protestantism, because he's already admitting that God could have scripture outside of the Bible, that angels are appearing to people that Joseph's receiving revelations. But Samuel Smith, confronted with what they just learned, with the authority that was just restored, he struggles. And to us, that doesn't make any sense at all. But if you were Samuel Smith and every single sermon and every single Gospel doctrine class that they had, it was not called that. But every single Sunday school class they ever went to, every single sermon that you ever heard reiterated that salvation had nothing to do with works and ordinances, that it was by faith alone, it was by grace alone. If that was your life, if every Christian that you ever knew, in fact, the only Christians, the only Christians saying that you needed to be baptized to be saved were those dirty Catholics. And anti Catholicism in the United States during the second Great Awakening is through the charts. In fact, different Protestant churches will attack each other in the media as they're competing for. For followers. Now, I know, I know that comes as a surprise to people that someone would publish a negative story about someone in. In the newspaper in an attempt to hurt the. But back in the 19th century, people were willing to go to any lengths. They were willing to say and do things that we're not willing to say and do today, but they would attack each other regularly. You know, Reverend Brownlee claims that he is a true follower of Reformed theology, but just last week, someone said he quoted from the apocrypha in his sermon. I mean, just. They're looking for any trappings of Catholicism to point out that this person is not truly reformed. So not only is this a world where every Christian does not believe that baptism is essential for salvation, it's actually a world that is swinging with a baseball bat at anything that even resembles Catholic theology that says authority exists and that you have to be baptized. So I don't know exactly what caused Samuel to react the way he did, but I do know that he was 100% on board with Joseph. Joseph has the authority restored. Baptism is restored. And he's told that baptism is essential. And Samuel struggles. He says this. Joseph says he was not very easily persuaded, but after much inquiry and explanation, so apparently they spent hours on this. He retired to the woods in order that by secret and fervent prayer he might obtain of a merciful God wisdom to enable him to judge for himself. The result was that he obtained revelation for himself sufficient to convince him of the truth of our assertions. And then on the 25th day of that same month, he was baptized. So again, I don't know everything behind Samuel having such a virulent reaction, but Joseph says they show him what they had just translated. They tell him about what just happened. And Samuel, who was on board for angels, Samuel, who's on board for gold plates, Samuel, who's on board for Joseph receiving revelations in the name of the Lord, says, I'm not sure I want to be on the train anymore. And I think that is a very good demonstration of just how radical Latter Day Saint theology is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I do think it's interesting, though, because many people have had strong spiritual witnesses of all kinds of things without having their brother be Joseph Smith. And yet we all have similar reactions to Samuel Smith, right? A little bit on certain things where we hear something that goes against the thing that we believe strongly or whatever it is. And we. We bristle at it as well, because we might think, well, that's ridiculous. How could the brother of Joseph Smith, who's had all these incredible experiences hearing firsthand from a brother that he trusts, bristle at this idea? And it's. I think it's. I think it's too. I mean, to your point, it's pretty radical. And also, we all kind of do it well.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, you don't have to. I mean, you don't have to have 15 different handles on social media to. To just have experienced the last General Conference and its aftermath. And I mean, in. In particular, the virulent reaction from at least avowed members. I don't know, maybe they're not even members. I'm certain that some of them are, because I've talked to some of them and I know that they're members. But the virulent reaction to Elder Anderson restating what the Church's position on abortion has always been. It took me by surprise. Like I said, even some otherwise faithful members that I know were really upset by it because it went contrary to what their political viewpoint is. And not to be outdone, it was not only a few days ago that the Church reiterated to its bishops that when they are conducting temple recommend interviews for worthiness sake, they are not to ask the citizenship status of the people that are seeking to go to the temple. Now, I know for a fact that that had to be done because there were some bishops refusing to give temple recommends to people who were illegal. I know that because I happen to know a former bishop who once told me that if someone told them that they were illegal, he would ask, and if they were illegal, he would not give them a temple recommend because they weren't being honest in their dealings with their fellow men and they weren't honoring, obeying and sustaining the law. Now, Again, if you look at current politics, if you try to treat your religion like it's just an expansion of your current political football game that you're playing, you're going to crush the beauty of the Restoration underneath the crippling weight of gentile politics. And so, yeah, I think, Richard, your point is very good. All of us, to a greater or lesser degree or multiple times over, are like Samuel, because the Church teaches something that goes against what we want to believe politically, goes against some very strongly held belief. And we have to decide, just like Samuel did, whether I still believe. Do I, Do I really believe whatever it is that the prophet says or do I only believe it when it just so happens to coincide with what I already believe. And even people who've taken great strides in their testimony can be confronted with things that cause them to say, I'm not okay with that. There are people the world over who've chosen their politics over their God, convinced themselves that their politics were the most important part of their faith, and then when their faith went a different direction, left their faith rather than their politics. This question with Samuel wasn't. But the whole point of setting that stage is in a world where all anyone would have heard is that salvation is by grace alone. Salvation is by grace alone. Salvation is by grace alone. It is not terribly surprising that an early Latter Day Saint speech, we are not spending all kinds of time focusing on salvation being by grace alone. Now, that's not to say we don't talk about it, but when you say, do we talk about it differently today than they did then I'll tell you what one thing is. We talk about it way more than they did. Even just this is, you know, the most unscientific thing in the history of ever. But even if you just go to the Latter Day Saint, you know, conference corpus, and you type in grace, you see a gigantic spike in the references to grace in the 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, 2020s. Not that they don't mention grace, but the other thing is we almost universally use the term grace Today in talking about salvation, they use the term grace with many of the other dictionary definitions of it. So if we go to Webster's Dictionary, look, grace has, I mean, I don't know, 70 definitions in the Webster's 1828 dictionary. But for instance, and of course, Webster, a Protestant, and he's writing this dictionary to be sold in an almost entirely Protestant country, there's going to be a little bit of heavy leaning on Protestant ideas about what grace is in this, but he says, favor, goodwill, kindness, disposition, to oblige one another as a grant made as an act of grace. So the first definition is this idea of goodwill and kindness and disposition. Secondly, appropriately, the free, unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all benefits men receive from him. The third, the favorable influence of God, divine influence, or the influence of the Spirit in renewing the heart and restraining from sin. Number four. And this is probably much more similar to our. Our Protestant friends are most often using this definition, the application of Christ's righteousness to the sinner. Right. We are saved by grace. What's the grace of Christ? It's Christ's righteousness, Christ's sacrifice that saves us. And then, of course, when you're in a state of grace, that's why definition 5 is the state of a reconciliation to God, virtuous or religious affection or disposition as a liberal disposition, faith, meekness, humility, patience, proceeding from divine influence. So that definition there, that grace is a description of your personal virtues related to your interaction with God. That one is also very heavily used. If we go to the Book of Mormon, you can certainly find every type of aspect of the way grace might be used, but ones that would seem very familiar in our church today. If we go to Jacob, chapter 4. Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness. Sorry, this is verse seven. That we may know that it is by his grace and his great condescensions unto the children of men that we have power to do these things right? So that idea that it's the power that's emanating from God most, you know, famously Moroni, chapter 10. I mean, this is how Moroni is deciding to end off his entire discussion, the entire book. Yea, come unto Christ and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness. And if you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ? And if by the grace of God you are perfect in Christ, you can in no wise deny the power of God. First of all, what I just read is one of the most beautiful things ever written. Ever. It's a good thing that farm boy Joseph Smith, you know, unable to spell, wrote one of the most beautiful sentences I've ever read. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ and deny not his power, then ye are sanctified in Christ by the grace of God through the shedding of the Blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy without spot. I mean, Moroni gives us an amazing definition of grace. Is grace freely given? Is there literally nothing you have to do to receive it? Well, that's not what he says. What do you have to do? First, you have to come unto Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves in all ungodliness and love God with all your heart, might, mind, and strength. Then his grace is sufficient for it. So Moroni is presenting this idea that because you are devoting your life to Jesus, you're not perfect. But because you're devoting your life to Jesus, his grace is going to make up for your shortcomings, which is very similar. Of course, Moroni had the privilege of already reading what Nephi had written, so I guess he gets away with it. You know, it's very easy to know everything Moroni when you've already read, like, I don't know, I just came to my mind about this. And he's already read every prophet, you know, he's. He's like the guy in your Gospel doctrine class who taught the same lesson in a different ward like the week before. And so he's in there and someone's like, now has anyone thought he's like, he's got every answer. Yeah, yeah, That's a John 3. Well, I didn't even mention. Yeah, John 3. About 10. I've even got the handout. They had it out last week. I mean, they. He knows everything, but Nephi. And this is the most famous explanation of our explanation of grace from the Book of Mormon. For we labor diligently to write to persuade our children. This is 2 Nephi 25. Sorry, verse 23. To persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by the grace that we are saved after all, that we can do so again, that is not the definition of grace that John Calvin would give. John Calvin would say, there's nothing you can do. Nothing. You either were chosen by God to receive the gift of grace, and therefore you are saved before God ever even created this world. Or you weren't chosen to be saved by God and there's nothing you can do about it. Instead, the Book of Mormon, for some crazy reason, places agency at the forefront of how grace is applied to a sinner. That it is certainly by grace that you are saved. But how do you obtain that grace? You obtain that grace as you seek to Follow Christ. And that would have been rejected by almost everyone in their day. Now, Richard, you have a great example of the way grace is talked about in Joseph's Revelations.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. So it's in doctrine covenants, section 45. And I think one of the things that's the most valuable, because you've mentioned this to me, I know several times, is obviously, we're saved by grace of Jesus Christ. There is nothing we can do that will get us to heaven without. So how much of it is the atonement of Jesus? 100% of it. Right. All of it is right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Without the atonement, you cannot be saved without the grace of Jesus Christ. There is no salvation without the grace of Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I feel like this section, and just a couple verses, at least for me, helps me to understand the role that grace has in the restored Gospel. And it's Doctrine Covenants, Section 45, verses 3 through 5. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who's pleading your cause before him, saying, father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin in whom thou wast well pleased. Behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest, that thyself might be glorified. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name that they may come unto me and have everlasting life? There isn't anything that Jesus is saying. It's beautiful. There isn't anything that Jesus is saying there that's saying, hey, Richard's a great guy that did all this stuff, and because of what he's done, let him in. It says, I am your advocate. I suffered and died, and there was no sin in me. Let this person in. Because they believe in me and have done. Essentially, they believe in me and have done the things that I have asked them to do. They are one of my disciples. Let them in again, not for their sake, but for mine. And that's always resonated with me. And when we talk, because sometimes what happens is that sometimes there's an overcorrection of us. I mean, I've heard people talk about grace kind of in the opposite direction. Right. It is far more of us, the actions that we do. And certainly these things matter. You just did a great job describing that. But I feel like we're more aligned with many aspects of Protestants other than kind of the predestination piece of it, that we're saved 100% by grace. And the idea of the revelation Joseph Smith receives at the judgment bar is to me A beautiful example of how it works.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And I think that's the fact that. So look, because the church was restored in a time period in which nobody believed that there were any works necessary for salvation. And so one of the primary things we have to try to teach people is that baptism is essential, that confirmation is essential, that the temple endowment is essential for exaltation, because we have to try to share God's word on that. It means that we spend a lot of time talking about things we need to do. And that's the reaction to the fact that you live in a world where people are saying you don't need to do anything. And I don't mean to say that other Christians aren't righteous. Other Christians are incredibly righteous people. I'm not talking about whether or not they do good things and they're kind to other people. I mean, they don't believe that baptism or any other ordinance is necessary to be done by authority that comes from hands on head passed down from an apostle, or that any of those ordinances or works are necessary for salvation. Latter Day Saints, of course, will. As the doctrine develops. The sheer level of the grace that Christ sheds with the atonement is staggering. Because those Protestants who are arguing that it's all about grace, it's all about God's grace, it's all about God's grace, were also arguing that almost everyone who lived on earth wasn't going to get it because you had to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved. And it's the Lord with true doctrine giving Joseph Smith the revelation on baptism for the dead and then eventually all kinds of ordinances for the dead, that makes it so that the grace that Christians claimed was efficacious for everyone, Joseph Smith's revelations made them actually efficacious. Because if you tell me all someone has to do is believe in Jesus and they're saved. And I say, well, what if they're born in Congo in 700 A.D. well, then they've never even heard the word Jesus. Well, welcome to hell population them. They're going because they died without faith in Jesus. Or maybe you're born in a country where Christianity is illegal and you never see the Bible. Or maybe you're born to atheist parents or whatever your circumstances are. The revelation that ordinances could be done vicariously made it so that the claimed grace that Jesus extended his grace to all mankind became actual grace to all mankind. We aren't saying that if you just so happen to be lucky enough that God either chose you before he created you or that you bump into a street preacher who tells you you're going to burn in hell if you don't believe and you choose to believe right, then everyone, everyone, everyone will feel the effects of the atonement. Everyone will have an equal opportunity at not just salvation from hellfire, but exaltation. If you look at some of the early Latter Day Saint phraseologies, the term grace is often used. I mean, it's used more as this kind of attribute of becoming more like God rather than this free will gift of salvation that's given to everyone. A great example this is doctrine covenant section 93 where it talks about Jesus John talking about the Lord, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. I John saw that he received not of the fullness at first, but D and C 9312, but he received grace for grace. Now clearly Jesus is not receiving saving grace in this discussion, right? But this is a description of him becoming more and more godlike as he receives more and more grace from the Father and he received not of a fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace until he received of a fullness. So you have a lot of that description too, where the saints are told to add grace to their lives and they're not solely talking about as a way of being saved. And I could go on and give lots of examples, but we would probably need another 10 emails telling us to do it because we're way over time. But I'll just share one of them. This is from Joseph Smith just before he is murdered. And I think it gives a very good explanation of how it is that Joseph Smith sees salvation. Not when he's stunned in the grove or when he's trying to figure out why the bank isn't working in Ohio, but only a couple of weeks before he is going to be arrested and then murdered. And wouldn't you know it, it's Joseph being Joseph. They hear that a member of the church in Boston has has been excommunicated from the Church. Abijah Tewksbury is his name. And so Joseph and Hyrum write him a letter. Sir, we understand that you've been cut off from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and feeling an ardent desire for the salvation of the souls of men. We take pleasure in feeling after you and therefore would in the sincerity of men of God advise you to be re baptized by Elder Nickerson, one of the servants of God. Thus you may again receive the sweet influences of the Holy Ghost and enjoy the fellowship of the Saints, the law of God requires it, and you cannot be too good. Patience is heavenly, obedience is noble, forgiveness is merciful, and exaltation is godly. And he that holds out faithful to the end shall in no wise lose his reward. And then Joseph adds this little bit of advice in a postscript. A good man will endure all things to honor Christ and can dispose of the whole world and all in it to save his soul. Grace for grace is a heavenly decree, and union is power where wisdom guides. Many Latter Day Saints and Joseph, on multiple occasions taking From D and C93, often use the term grace as a means of describing our halting, difficult steps. That salvation is something that occurs over the course of our life as we choose to endure to the end. Because it's not enough to just accept Jesus yesterday and become Bill the adulterer tomorrow. We have to accept the atonement and the grace that's offered us every day. And when we sin, we have to go back and repent and keep coming back until we are a changed person. And I know that discussions about grace and ordinances and righteousness have some people on one side saying, okay, I've got to make sure I do everything. I'm going to read my scriptures 45 minutes in the morning, and then when I'm at work, I'm going to read it while I'm supposed to be doing my work, because I need to make sure, I got to make sure that God's not going to condemn me. And we start making lists for ourselves and we become Pharisees, and that kind of scrupulosity in some way denies the grace of Christ as well. I've met lots of people in my life who can't talk about anything but the church and the Gospel, but who treat other people around them like absolute garbage. Boy, they can quote any scripture from the Book of Mormon to you, but they haven't thought about being kind one time. And if that's all we become is someone who has a phylactery in front of our eyes with the Scriptures, but it hasn't actually changed who we are, well, then we haven't allowed the grace of Christ to change who we are. On the other hand, of course, you have people who think that eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die and it'll be well with us. Well, I think as we talked about in doctrine covenant section 19, the Lord knows that if we don't choose to accept his grace, if we don't choose to endure to the end, if we don't choose to repent when we sin, that we're going to suffer. And that's why he so desperately wants us to grab a hold of his atonement to repent for our sins and accept the grace that he offers. I obviously am not an expert on this. I can only talk about things historically. The only thing I am expert in is how I feel the grace of Jesus Christ and His suffering has erased my sins. When I have repented, I can speak about it on a personal level because I have felt my sins taken from me by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Is it works? Yes. Is it grace? Yes. Is it both things? Yes. And that's why our prophets and apostles teach that there are ways you need to live and there are ordinances you need to do. And that because we can't be perfect and none of us are even close, that grace is what's actually going to take us over the finish line. If we use that grace as an excuse for sin, well then we don't have the grace anyway. If we refuse to accept the grace because we we think we're too far gone, or we think we're just so righteous we don't need it, well then we also are not embracing the atonement. So sorry that a deep question, a comical maybe lead in. But I would just say to everybody, talk to your Lord. Talk to your heavenly Father. Have, have a discussion with him about your state and your sins. Repent of them. No one's too far gone that they can't come back and then allow the grace of Christ to buoy you up that you have an inheritance in the kingdom to come. Remember, God is far less concerned with who you were yesterday than who you're going to be tomorrow. It's the entire purpose of this life to become what God is. And you don't become what God is without all kinds of struggles and difficulties and failings. So thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.