S5E2 Can Satan Repent?

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: Season 5, Episode 2 – Can Satan Repent?

Release Date: January 9, 2025

Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU

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I. Introduction and Context

In the second episode of Season 5, titled "Can Satan Repent?", Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat delves into a profound theological question posed by a listener. Joined by his co-host, Dr. Richard Leduc, the episode navigates the intricate doctrines of repentance, salvation, and the nature of Satan within the framework of Latter-Day Saint beliefs.

II. Listener Emails and Feedback

Early in the episode, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc engage with listener communications, adding a personal and interactive dimension to the discussion. Notably, they address emails from various followers, including one from Aaron, which serves as the focal point for the episode's main discourse.

Notable Quote:

[08:58] Dr. Richard Leduc: "We Live in Washington, D.C. so they named their son James Madison and they live in D.C. that is really embracing the full now."

III. Main Discussion: Can Satan Repent?

A. Theological Perspectives

The core of the episode revolves around Aaron's question: "Can Satan repent?" This inquiry opens a debate on the possibility of redemption for fallen angels and the theological boundaries set by Latter-Day Saint teachings.

1. LDS vs. Traditional Christian Views

   • Unique LDS Doctrine: Unlike many Christian denominations, Latter-Day Saints believe that angels are resurrected individuals who once inhabited earthly bodies. This belief diverges significantly from traditional Christian theology, which views angels as purely spiritual beings without a corporeal past.

   • Joseph Smith's Revelations: Drawing from Joseph Smith's revelations, particularly from the Doctrine and Covenants, the hosts emphasize that fallen angels, including Satan, possess complete knowledge and thus lack the capacity for repentance. This stance is rooted in the belief that these beings made a definitive choice against God, rendering them incapable of redemption.

   Notable Quote:

   [20:46] Dr. Richard Leduc: "These are distinctions that are not being made. You are, you're straining at gnats there compared to where it is."

2. Joseph Smith's Teachings on Salvation and Damnation

   • Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76: Dr. Dirkmaat highlights Joseph Smith's portrayal of salvation as expansive, suggesting that almost all of God's children will attain a kingdom of glory, with very few exceptions.

   • Sons of Perdition: This term refers to those who have irrevocably rebelled against God. According to Smith, these beings, including Satan, cannot repent due to their complete and final rejection of divine grace.

   Notable Quote:

   [47:52] Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat: "That's spicy. Sometimes you want to learn by experience. I'm guessing in this one you do not."

B. Philosophical and Theological Analysis

The discussion extends to philosophical arguments surrounding free will, agency, and the nature of divine grace.

• Agency and Knowledge: Drawing parallels with Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, the hosts explore the idea that possessing complete knowledge and agency leads to the irrevocable choice of siding against God for fallen angels.

• Immutability of Pure Spirits: Given their perfected knowledge and nature, fallen angels are depicted as unable to alter their course, solidifying their status as irredeemable.

  Notable Quote:

  [58:00] Dr. Richard Leduc: "We all have to take time to thank the good teachers we have in our lives."

C. Conclusions and Doctrinal Stance

Concluding their analysis, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc affirm the doctrinal position that Satan and his followers cannot repent. They stress the importance of understanding these teachings within the broader context of LDS theology, which emphasizes the eternal nature of choices made in the pre-mortal existence.

Notable Quote:

[63:59] Dr. Richard Leduc: "I feel like Satan's got a better chance at repenting than the Bears making the playoffs."

IV. Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with reflections on the significance of addressing such deep theological questions within the church community. Dr. Dirkmaat encourages listeners to engage with doctrine thoughtfully and to recognize the expansive nature of Latter-Day Saint salvation.

Notable Quote:

[66:14] Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat: "Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time."

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Key Takeaways

• LDS Theology on Angels: Latter-Day Saints view angels as resurrected individuals with agency, differentiating their beliefs from mainstream Christianity.

• Irredeemable Nature of Satan: Based on doctrinal teachings, Satan and his followers (sons of perdition) cannot repent due to their complete rejection of divine grace.

• Expansive Salvation: The LDS perspective on salvation is broad, encompassing most of God's children, with very few exceptions.

• Role of Joseph Smith: Joseph Smith's revelations deeply influence LDS doctrines on salvation, repentance, and the nature of divine beings.

Conclusion

"Can Satan Repent?" offers a comprehensive exploration of a complex theological issue, blending doctrinal teachings with philosophical discourse. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of Latter-Day Saint beliefs, encouraging deep reflection on matters of faith and salvation.

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

Foreign hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I'm joined by my friend Dr. Richard Leduc who has all kinds of power. He's like the genie now on Aladdin.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He is ultimate cosmic power. Itty bitty living space.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Still an itty bitty living space.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, today's mortgage rates and housing prices, how could it not be?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I know that you told Becky that as soon as you got your PhD in hand that you would instantly be making millions of more dollars a year.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're on our 10 year plan now going into our 24th year. There were a lot of promises that were made and I am a little behind.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like you just got to keep over promising and under delivering, but just a little bit here and a little bit there delivering so that you string her along.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. No, much, much like any graduate program, you have to steal their spirit away. You have to just absolutely crush them and eventually they will accept whatever is left.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And that's the really the core of our marriage.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Accepting whatever's left. It's a great way to be happy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, happy, happy New Year. I know this is coming out like, like, I don't know, 10 days after New Year's, but you know, I mean it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Happy New Year, Gary.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Happy New Year. Ish. Well, weren't those bowl games amazing?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, the Arizona State game was fun.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, man, that was very frustrating.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was a fun game.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Should have won that game.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know, the or most of the playoff games have been dreadful. But I actually sent a message because I don't know if you, you watch the Texas Arizona State game. Texas went up like 17 nothing or 17, I guess. Arizona quarter. Arizona State scored a field goals. It was like 17:3. But Texas looked like they were going to destroy them.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I texted a group of friends and I'm like all of these playoff games have been all so terrible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then scatter boo came and then.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The fourth, the fourth quarter. I'm like, man, these playoff games have been awesome, guys.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. The Oregon Ohio State game, there was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There was a chance that in the third quarter it seemed like no Almost like it could happen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was never. That issue was not a doubt.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

At 3415, I'm like, they got. And then Ohio State scored and then.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was all over. I think the Oregon, from the time they snapped the ball had no chance. It was so bad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The commentators at halftime were like. It's like they've never played football before.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was crazy. It was of all the blowouts, because even like the Penn State SMU game was kind of a blowout, but it was a blowout primarily because SMU just kept making mistakes. Whereas, like, oh, man, they're going to score. Oh, they threw another interception. Oh, they're going to score. Oh, they just. They lost it on fourth down.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And the Boise State game was a blowout. But then it was, you know, it was competitive in the third quarter. It was like 17, 14 and had.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Boise State, you know, got a touchdown instead of an interception. Games, sure. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But Oregon looked like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, Oregon looked like. Yeah. We apologize to all of our. How many millions of Oregon Ducks listeners.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're huge in Portland, In Eugene, at least.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Boy. Yeah. I mean, we've got.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're big in Portland. We're big in Eugene. Antifa loves us.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. How are we in Corvallis?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Not as good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, well, that's the reason why we're covering Oregon and not Oregon State. Well, thank you so much for joining us for another season. Sorry for a little bit of football talk, but we did that just to keep our teenage listeners happy. Speaking of which, Richard.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. We've got the Phoebe Draper Palmer brown mailbag. Dear doctors Dirk Mott and Leduc. First, felt amazing to write. Second, since I never got to congratulate you, Dr. Leduc, but congrats. So exciting that you can now call yourself doctor. Just the doctor, if you so wish. I also wanted to write for no other reason than to express excitement that JT is going to my old alma material. If you can say that a middle school is an alma mater. He goes on to talk about if he took the same theater teacher that. That. That this is. Nate had that he knows why he wouldn't be able to attend.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I see.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, she is. They. They are. I don't know. It's a she, but they are. No, no.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Non woman.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, they are. No nonsense.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She reaps where she does not.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So no question. Just excited for the new year and all the fun it'll bring with the podcast. Hope you had a great Christmas and have a safe new year. Thank you so much, Nate. Very nice. This next email comes to us from Marlo. More teenage fans. Just wanted to let you know that my 17, 16 and 14 year old kids love the podcast, especially our 16 year old son, whose name ironically is James Madison, who turns on your premium content and listens every day while he does his workouts. It is motivating.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I kind of feel like you can either listen to Black Sabbath or Corn or us during your workout. I feel like that's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's inspiration. Do you remember as a kid, that infomercial, Body by Jake?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. So this is Body by standard of Truth podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. We're the PX90 of podcasts.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The P90X.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

P90X. That's what it is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, but the thing you said is, you know what?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Actually, that's actually much closer to what we are.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're PX90.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How long ago was that? A decade ago? I know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why don't we get the crack research staff on that and figure out when that stopped being a thing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I feel like in the mid aughts.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, no. I feel like for like a 2012.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Period, that's my guess.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm going to pay was all that anyone could talk about. I mean, it was important than anything. And every person said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing. You know. And then I never heard about it again. Like, it was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was crazy because all those people died, Garrett. They all died in sweat lodges. I guess. So it was released April 10, 2004.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. I. And I remember for like a year.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. It became a phenomenon in 2010.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. That's what I.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And once it became a phenomenon, like every person you talk to said that they were doing it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then like two years later, it was as if it had never been released. Like, I never heard about it ever again.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. No, so, I mean, look, everyone's made their. Their goals. They've got their New Year's resolutions. They're. They're trying to get their beach body. And I have a beach body of somebody.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's a beach in Antarctica. Sure.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was going to say. I was going to say Maine in like November. I have like a main November beach body.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I don't even have that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, well, so James Madison premium content when he does his workouts. We Live in Washington, D.C. so they named their son James Madison and they live in D.C. that is really embracing the full now.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel an even greater responsibility to get the Constitutional Convention right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We live in Washington D.C. not many blocks from the U.S. capitol. And our kids have been exposed to, exposed to a lot of American history in many forms and they still vote you as one of their favorites. They love it when you play devil's advocate with your special voices and don't seem to mind the minutes spent in Mindless Band. Oh, they're gonna love this episode.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thanks for bringing them great content and for making them laugh at the same time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The special voice, including when you do that like, anti Mormon voice kind of.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thing, I think that's. Well, so the, the creepy anti Mormon guy that's like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that's a very breathy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's very breathy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's. It's all dark.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's like sultry.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But the church didn't tell you about how Smith drank beer. Didn't they? It's a. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's like a breathy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know, it's Susan Estrides minus like nine cartons of cigarettes a day.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. So anyway, thank you so much. Tell all of your. We would have given them a shout out by name, all of them, but we only got one of them named James. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

James Madison.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Madison.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This next email comes to us from Elder Tippets. I have listened to almost all of the Joseph Smith and the Restoration with my companion and now I'm leaving him and the podcast in my last area and require free premium content in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission and would love to learn more about why the Calvinist God hates me and how I can't do anything about it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Elder Tippett, that is great. Again, for those of you who are not aware, we have this, you know, free podcast we put out every week and because people wanted to find a way to contribute to the podcast in order to keep us going or to at least keep the lights on. And in my upstairs bedroom, spare bedroom, where we're at right now, recording, we created this, a premium content which has several different podcasts. One of them an American history podcast, one on Joseph Smith and the Restoration. This year we have one called Search these Commandments, which is about the Doctrine and Covenants that people can sign up for and. And then we can use the premium funds to fund the rest of the other podcasts. So for the people who want to contribute, you know, to help out, that's a great way to do. But then we also decided we would make all of that content free to anyone who had a missionary email address. And so that's why we're constantly getting emails from I Mean, and we get a lot of email. We. We get a dozen emails from missionaries a day, probably.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's great, actually. It's. It's turned. It's turned into quite a bit of fun missionaries. These guys are hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All of them. These guys, Pennsylvania Mission, every single one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Of them, sisters and elders alike, that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

When they're selecting where to send missionaries, they're just like another one to Pittsburgh. Another one, another one. It's like more cowbell. I've got to have more. I've got to have more mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's entirely possible at this point that none of them are actually in that mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've already caught a couple of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Lying about what mission my son did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. So I said a couple of them. I met your son. The sister who was in Ohio told us she wasn't really and was just close.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, that's right. This next email comes to us from Ben. My mom introduced me to the podcast, and she came to visit this week. We live in Norman, Oklahoma. I'm professor at Oklahoma. That's very good. Well, I mean, you know, go. You know, go Oklahoma as a state. Yeah, we're all. We're all there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Boomer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Sooner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You both hate Texas. I get it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's true. That is true. Although I think I've. I think I've told you this before. So in Texas, if I ask you what time it is, right. I would say, well, the time is 1:53pm and Oklahoma still stinks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. But not stinks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. I'm trying to clean it up for the. For the kids.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Clean this up.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's right. Anyway, no, I don't believe that obviously. At all. Ben. I love University of Oklahoma. It's a great university. So we went to the garage for dinner. My nephew ordered the Sticky Finger. Now, the Sticky Finger is the burger that has the kind of butter and jalapeno. Yeah. The peanut butter and the pickled jalapeno.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. It sounds worse than it. Than it. Than it sounds to you. However bad you envision it, it sounds worse.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My nephew ordered the Sticky Finger. My mom ordered just, you know, some sort of a boring sandwich. She had one bite of my nephew's sticky finger and regretted her sandwich the rest of the meal. It's delicious. It doesn't seem like it would go together.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Try it, and I will stick by the fact that I won't try it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's absolutely delicious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yep. Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thank you so much. And then we gave your son the access to the. To the podcast. This last one comes to us from Aaron and will be the source of the content for this episode. I feel an enormous pressure to make this email clever or entertaining of of which I am neither. Nonetheless, neither are we.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't know why you feel so much pressure. Like I've got to make this entertaining and I've got to make it funny. Wheat.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we've built an empire on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And by empire I mean you're one that falls.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's right. I mean the Roman Empire.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Currently we are just as in action as the Eastern Roman Empire. We're Byzantium right now. Currently.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Nonetheless, I enjoy your podcast very much because Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc are both clever and entertaining. I have two items of interest. The first is a question my non LDS brother in law posed after attending Elders Quorum on and off for a year or so and learning bits and pieces about the Gospel there. First of all, so he's so he's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Only going to Elders Quorum, like so he's not going to sacrament meeting and he's not going to gospel doctoring class.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I got to give you more of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This Elder score on and off though. I think we need a follow up email from you about this is Aaron, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is Aaron. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. What's going on is he just likes only coming to church every other week and he only wants to be there for Elders Quorum.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What an incredible endorsement for the Elders Quorum Presidency. For the teachers in the Elders Quorum, there's a lot of fun that is had. Is it at Elders Quorum expense?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

About how boring.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Deservedly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's right. So guys like prayer. Like do you think that's like important or.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

My favorite, my favorite is Richard and I have attended Elders Quorum before and.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

On and off over the past.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Over the past year occasionally. And we were one time sitting together in an Elders Quorum in Napa, I believe, wasn't it? It was Napa, Idaho. Of all of them, it was the worst of all of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It ended 15 minutes early and it still felt like we were in there for nine hours.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The guy let us out 15 minutes early because it was so bad. I mean I think because he at one point he legitimately said these words. So do you guys think it would be important to have faith in Jesus? He asked a class of people in an Elders Quorum if it would be important to have faith in Jesus.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Someone raised their hand and said yes. And they just said yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They just said yes. They just said said yes. No follow up, no statement. And the guy sitting up at the Front, he was sitting on a table, went okay, okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. And that was when, when the elders quorum got out. The best that I can compare to is that everybody had the look in their face like a boxer. And the refs giving a standing eight count, right? And they're, they're dazed because. And everyone.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He's grabbing their gloves, he's shaking.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You okay? Everyone walked out of there like a little woozy. Like we weren't really sure what was going.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was, it was incredible. But it was, it was the great, it was the, the great stereotype of all bad Elders Quorum lesson. It was clear that the teacher had never even looked at what the lesson was. And you know what? We were visiting, so maybe he was filling in. He didn't say that he was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I don't know. It was my parents ward and we were in for the weekend. No, no, no. Because like when I left, I left the Fifth Ward. I came back to like the 22nd war. I don.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

When I left, I left and I never left. It sounds like this is a Hallmark show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, you know, it grew a lot out there. So like when I came back there were like 20 wards.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But anyway, it was. We all have to take time to thank the good teachers we have in our lives.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And apparently in Aaron's Ward, they're tremendous.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How in the world. I do want a little more information about how he's only going to elders Quorum. Is he just skipping sacrament meeting? He not going to Sunday school? This is. I want to find out more.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And by the way, the way, the reason I'm saying that they're tremendous despite having almost no detail is the fact that he kept going back.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He went more than once.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They're incredible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's hard to get people who are members of the church to go to elders quorum.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's the hardest thing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, ask, ask, ask Rob Jobless Rob, our new Elders Corps president. You can't get anybody to go to Elders Corps.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's great. All right, so yes. So we assume Aaron's elders quorum president and Rex's. Those are the. And then potentially Rob, we'll see what.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He does in a probationary state right now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We'll find out bits and pieces about the gospel here and there. He asked whether Satan can repent. Not that he would, but if he could, is that option available? Just, just that question from the non member brother in law. That is a fairly deep and profound question.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It is a very, very deep question. Can Satan repent? Now let's start off by saying of the things that are essential to your.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Salvation, this is like two or three.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's ham radios, then this, then food.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Storage, then the temple.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, then the temple. The temple's fourth. It comes in. I mean, I don't mean to say that it's not. It's a great question because what it demonstrates is that someone is thinking more deeply about the cosmology, essentially. I mean, the very idea of creation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And the fact that Satan is in any way even like us is a thing. That's a deeply profound thing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So this question was asked before, and I won't spend a ton of time on this just because we're going to spend more time figuring out whether or not we should have faith in Jesus in Elders quorum. But early Christian fathers had this discussion too. But their discussion about whether or not the devils can repent is a very different question because it's important that we recognize, you know, so for your brother in law, you know, it's, you know, hey, have you read the Book of Mormon? Let's talk about the theology of angels. I mean, I don't know where you want to work this in, Aaron, but it's important to understand that when any other Christian asks the question of whether or not Satan or the devil or Lucifer can repent, they are asking about whether or not angels which are fallen from grace can ever be restored to grace. I know I've talked about this on other podcasts, and so I'm really just, you know, beating the proverbial dead horse here. But it's essential to understand this from a theological perspective in order to talk about this question. All Christians, Catholic and Protestant, believe that angels are not people. Okay, so most important thing to get out of the way, if you're, as a Latter Day Saint, you believe angels are people. And I don't even mean getting into the, you know, the, into the weeds or the, the specifics about whether or not, you know, well, technically an angel has to have a resurrected body and, you know, a spirit of a just person made perfect. They don't have a body.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

These are distinctions that are not being made. You are, you're straining at gnats there compared to where it is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I, I'm trying to swallow this whole Camel. Give me a sec. And I mean cigarettes. But for a Christian, angels are creations of God. Now, Christians also believe that mankind is creations of God, meaning that they have no existence in and of themselves. In other words, they are creatures. That's where the term creature comes from. They were created. Angels are often similar to humans they often take the form or shape of humans. But there's an entire theological debate, at least in Joseph Smith's time, about whether or not angels even actually have bodies or whether they just project the fact that they have bodies or whether or not they sometimes have bodies for Latter Day Saints. Because of Joseph Smith, we believe that angels are resurrected people who were once living on this earth. That is radical theology that we don't realize how radical it is. On. On our premium side, we were talking about Joseph Smith's. The. The first appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith. And one of the things I wanted to highlight is even in the appearance of Moroni, the very fact that Moroni says that he's an angel sent from God and that Moroni says, hey, by the way, I'm a guy who used to live 1400 years ago and I'm the one who buried these plates up. The very fact that the angel talking to Joseph is a man who has died and been resurrected is outside of the realm of Christian theology.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is. It's almost as. It's funny when you describe that on the premium Plug for the Premium, by the way, when you described it, I hadn't thought of it like that before. And it was like, boy, this is almost as dramatic of a thing as there being plates at all. Like, this is an enormous deal that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Joseph existence that Moroni is saying, I am a man who used to live. I hid up plates. I'll show you where I hid them. And he's now resurrected and he's an angel. Right. So Latter Day Saint theology on angels is incredibly unique. No other Christian denomination believes that angels are people. Now, I know you're like, well, wait a minute. When I was watching highway to Heaven, he looked like. I know there's all kinds of popular culture, you know, angels in the outfield. Have you ever seen Kid with a Broken Halo?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, haven't seen it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Really?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. Yeah. Never.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like. Richard, how many of our listeners have seen the kid with the broken halo? I mean, you want to. Who was in it? Gary Coleman.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Back when he was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what? I might have seen it then. Wait a minute. All right, I'm going to get to the bottom of this. I'm going to pull this up here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, and he also was an angel. Right. Kid with a broken hand. But angels are represented as people. When you see them in art, they look like people, but they are not people. In Christian theology, angels are created to be special servants of God. They were never intended to become mortal. And they were never intended to be people or to live on this earth. That's why you can have an angel that has horns or has wings or whatever. An angel can be anything God wants it to be because God created it out of nothing. And it was never intended to be a person. So from the beginning of this conversation, because we believe that angels. Well, because Christians believe that angels are fundamentally different from people now. They're both created, so they're the same in that regard. But angels are a different class of being. They aren't the same being. It would be like saying a horse is a human. Because they are both creations. No, they are different classes of beings. Latter Day Saint theology, because of Joseph Smith, is that angels are people, in point of fact, resurrected, glorified people who once lived on the earth. That is how Adam can be the Archangel Michael. That is how Noah can be the angel Gabriel. The very fact that, that we believe, at least in some instances, that these great prophets from history have served as resurrected angels in this dispensation is completely apart from what the Christian world believes. Now you're thinking, Garrett, you're not really answering the question. Well, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's very on brand. You're killing it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Garrett, why? Why do I feel like you're just giving backstory? This has never happened before the history of standards. The reason why is while Christians will ask a very similar question, the question means something entirely different to them. Because a fallen angel, which is what they believe Satan is, they believe Lucifer is an angel, meaning he was never created to be a person. He was never going to be someone that inhabited body again. Christians don't believe in a pre existent life for Latter Day Saints because we believe that we were all spirit children with our Heavenly Father before this earth was ever created. The question is a very different question. Question people like St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, they wrestled with this idea. When we talk about repentance, when we talk about God's mercy and God's grace, could theoretically, an angel that was a fallen angel stop being a fallen angel. You know, so if. What if they just decided to repent? This is how Thomas Aquinas writes about it. He says a rational creature that is a creature with intellect and will can sin if it be unable to sin. This is a gift of grace, not a condition of nature. While angels were yet unbeatified, they could sin. And some of them did sin. So Aquinas is arguing that when angels were first created, they had agency. And in having agency, they had the Ability to sin. The sinning angels or demons are guilty of all sins insofar as they lead man to commit every kind of sin but the bad angels themselves. But in the bad angels themselves there can be no tendency to fleshly sins, but only to such sins as can be committed by purely spiritual beings. These sins are two Pride and envy. Lucifer, who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God. For Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. This is where Thomas Aquinas, not knowing that there is a pre existence kind of, you know, look, he's doing the best he can. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point, man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination. He imagines himself to be another and greater being, yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect with its clear knowledge makes such self deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God he would have to be God. And he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God. He wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone. Every nature that is, that is every essence as operating tends to some good. An intellectual nature, to good in general, good under its common aspects, good as such. The fallen angels therefore are not naturally evil. Again, this, this is actually a big point. Augustine makes a similar point. Because angels were created by God out of nothing, they couldn't be evil at the moment of their creation because then God would have created something evil. So they all have to have this space where God creates angels and the angels have agency, which Catholics very much believe in agency. So this works really well with their theology that we have agency, we just use it terribly. And angels had it, used it terribly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But I don't think.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I know, I know where you're going, okay?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's just, you can't, you can't get away with that. Like God can't create anything evil. Well, but if he knows that it's going to be evil, what's the difference?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This depth. Let me go back to Thomas Aquinas.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, Aquinas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, let me. My pro Aquinas anti Richard sentiments have been known for quite some time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Can I tell you something though. So this is what really, really, really irritates me a lot. All right, so Thomas Aquinas is Augustine. Aquinas. These are perceived as.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Aquinas is one of the most brilliant Christian minds to ever have written.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Protestants believe this to some degree or no.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, to a certain degree, especially people, you know. The problem is Aquinas comes so late that by the time Reformers are writing about things, Aquinas is kind of a problem for them because it's close to the Reformation era.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. Whereas so Augusta Augustine gets. Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Because everyone loves, everyone loves Augustine. He's a thousand years ago. He's easy to get behind.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, fantastic. Joseph Smith, who is just a hick, uneducated farm boy that, that the, the anti or ex Mormon or whatever community loves to just claim what an idiot he is. Right? He is able. Because if it's not from God, Right. Let's say that it's not on his own, then is able to come up with answers to these questions that Aquinas and Augustine are all over the place and can't really come to answers about just them.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All the Reformers, all these other Christian thinkers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what I'm saying. It's incredibly irritating that it's like, look, we believe him to be a prophet. We believe that the Lord is using him as a prophet to bring forth the Restoration. And so we don't say that Joseph Smith is this great theological thinker in the same way. But if he's not, he's answering these questions and he gets none of the credit for it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If he is a false prophet, he's answering them without. I mean, I have to believe that 14, 17 year old Joseph Smith is probably not reading Thomas Aquinas. I mean, I know I was right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When you were 4, when I was 13, I was like all about that Thomas Aquinas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, he was reading the City of God by Augustine when he was 13 years old and he was like, this doesn't make any sense. It has to be by natural grace.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But it's so aggravating to me. Like, like, like I understand what he's trying to do. And he is limited with the resources that he has. And given that, brilliant. However it answers no questions.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, let me go on.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, I'm sorry.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He says the devil with his companions sinned immediately after creation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

How about that?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He rejected the grace in which he was created, in which he was meant to use as good angels, use it to merit beatitude. If, however, the angels were not created in grace as some hold, but had grace available as soon as they were created, then it may be some interval occurred between the creation and the sin of Lucifer and his companions. Lucifer, the chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was the highest only among the rebel angels. The sin of the highest angel was a bad example which attracted the other rebel angels and to this extent was the cause of their sin. So he's a. I mean, he's got. He's got like a Harley.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, he's given a rebel yell. We want more, more, more.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He's got a. He's got. He's got a Harley. He's, you know, he's like, you know, doesn't care about, you know, he's bad to the bone. You got George Thorogood playing in the background probably. Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I assume.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. He goes on to say the fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge. So again, this is not to bag on Aquinas. I actually think he's being very reasonable given the knowledge that he has. And what's the knowledge that he has? That God created literally everything out of nothing. That nothing existed but God, and then God created everything, and that God created angels and that God created people. And those two things aren't the same thing. So therefore they're separate. And so he's trying to reason this out, that there's evil angels. I mean, think about this. How are there evil angels?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, I get it. I get. Given the circumstances and the information that he has, Lucifer is Billy Idol and he's up there, you know, and he.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wants more, more, more. So the, the fallen. So this is part that I really think is impressive with him. The fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge by sin, nor did they lose their angelic intellect. Okay? So one of the points for him about why fallen angels are fallen angels is they all. They maintained everything they knew. Angels did not sin ignorantly. They knew exactly what they were doing when they rebelled against God. The fallen angels are obstinate in evil, unrepentant, inflexibly determined in their sin. This follows from their nature as pure spirits. For the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging. So this is the point he's trying to make. The angels were created good. They were in the presence with God. So they have all knowledge. It's not like they're like, I don't know. Do you think God's really there? He's standing there. He just created you right there's. No question about the knowledge that they have. And in that knowledge they made a choice to follow evil rather than good. And so that's why Aquinas says the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging. What does he mean by that? Well, if you already have all knowledge and you're not afflicted by some other kind of sin that's causing you to act out, it's not like, oh, Lucifer got drunk, you know, a little bit too much of the communion wine, and now he's going to make the decision he's going to make. He doesn't have a body in this theology, he doesn't have a sin. He's born, he's created without evil. And in that pure, essentially all knowing, not all knowing the way God is, but with the perfect knowledge of God chooses evil. Because of that, there's no possibility of them changing. Now, I realize that the question your brother in law asked is, of course he wouldn't, but theoretically, could he? The problem with the question is that it's asking if someone didn't have the nature that they have, could they have a different nature? Well, yes. I mean, yeah, if someone didn't have the nature that they have, then I guess they could be something different. But by saying that they're not that thing, they're no longer the question that we're asking. Now, I know this is just a coin, so let's kind of fast forward a little bit. For Latter Day Saints, our theology on salvation is so much more expansive. By the way, I should probably say I'm not going to quote from any Calvinist theologians, but if you do ask a Calvinist theologian, can the devil change? Can a fallen angel change and repent? The Calvinist response you're going to get is, of course they can't, because salvation has nothing to do with their actions. It's only a gift. That's a free will gift from God. So no, of course they can't, because you're thinking like a Catholic. If you think that they just go, you know, the angel goes and says, I don't know, 10,000 Hail Marys and then he can be absolved and be a good angel again. From the Calvinist viewpoint, if they were destined for grace, predestined for grace, they would have had grace because salvation is nothing of yourself at all. Not, not a little bit, not sometimes, not, not when we feel like it. It's nothing of yourself at all. So from the Calvinist worldview, you wouldn't be able to repent either. These fallen angels simply because the very fact that they're fallen angels is the will of God.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I can. Let me finish what Aaron said in the response. So I, I did not have a doctrinally based answer other than to say, no, he can't. The only basis I have for that answer is that Satan lost his first estate and because of that and the fact that he does not have a body, he cannot repent. Is that answer sound doctrine?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's. I mean, look, it's a pretty good answer. I was going to say that with the advent of Latter Day Saint theology, our idea of salvation is so much more incredibly expansive that it starts to beg the question, can fall. Can, can, maybe not. Satan. Okay, yeah, we get him. What about the third of the hosts of heaven that followed him? Because they're not just creations of God, they're children of God.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, and to that, not even just that third of the hosts, what about the sons of perdition as well? They fall into the same ultimate consequence.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right, right, Yep. And that question is one that comes up again and again in the early church because Joseph introduces a theology through Doctrine and covenant, section 76 that is radical beyond all radicalism. When you're sitting in your Gospel doctrine class this year and you cover doctrine covenants, Section 76, I mean, don't be, don't be a jerk about it, but if you have a chance, comment on the fact that the important part of DNC 76 is not that we know that there's three kingdoms. I mean, that's important. I'm not saying it's not. But what made it radical was that Joseph is declaring that nearly everyone is going to go to a kingdom of glory, which as, as President Oaks said recently in General Conference, with exceptions too few to mention, all of God's children are going to go to a kingdom of glory eventually. So Latter Day Saint belief on heaven and on salvation from hellfire is already so expansive that it immediately begins to beg the question, does that mean in some way even those spirits that chose to follow Satan at first, could they somehow repent and change and, and you know, get back on the right track? In May of 1844, Joseph is giving a discourse and he makes a reference to what it is that the devil did in the last days. He's quoting from John. Well, sorry, he's quoting John in, in the book of Revelation, talking about the last days. And he says, I will send to you another witness and he shall preach this gospel to all nations to the ends of the world. But woe to that man or woman who shall lift up his hand, his or their hands against God, for they are raising their arm against the power of God, and they will be cursed. But in these times, in the last days, there will be many false prophets who arise and false teachers and deceive many. And they shall have many followers by their deceit. One of the things we've talked about a lot on this podcast is don't be one of the people that's following a false prophet. President Nelson is the prophet of God on the earth right now. The quorum of the twelve apostles in the first Presidency, they're the only ones who hold the keys. So if you find yourself disregarding President Nelson because of something that some other person that you really like says, it's time to repent, because that is not how God set up the kingdom in the last days. Let me go on. These people who deceive, they try, they strive to get power and by their pernicious ways lead off many. For brother Joseph Smith was chosen for the last dispensation, or the seventh dispensation, the time the grand council set in heaven to organize this world. Joseph was chosen for the last and greatest prophet to lay the foundation of God's work. Therefore, the Jews asked John the Baptist if he was Elias or Jesus or that great prophet that was to come. And the devil or Lucifer also organized his kingdom in opposition to overthrow gods that he be, and he became a son of perdition. So here Joseph, first of all, pretty awesome, talking about how Joseph was chosen in that grand council to be this prophet of the last dispensation. But that in that council, or at least immediately thereafter, that council, the devil or Lucifer organized his kingdom to overthrow God's kingdom. And that's what made him a son of perdition. He this direct rebellion against God. This question is one that's asked even in the early church, and it's asked enough that Joseph eventually has to correct some false doctrine. Now, when we say, I think it's safe to say that the church doesn't have expansive teachings on whether or not, you know, Lucifer can repent or whether or not the. I mean, that's. It's not one of the articles of faith, okay? It's not one of the things that we talk about, and at least what Joseph Smith says in 1833 is that it has not been fully revealed. But surprisingly, in 1833, just like in 2025, the fact that something hasn't been revealed doesn't stop people from teaching it like they know It. And here is the letter that Joseph writes to church leaders in Jackson County, Missouri, in June of 1833. The letter has a lot of things like, oh, tell so and so to buy this property. Tell so and so this is what his job is. It's doing a lot of, you know, housekeeping things. But this is. Is the. The part that's pertinent to what we're talking about. Say to the brethren Hewletts, and to all others that the Lord never authorized them to say that the devil, nor his angels, nor the sons of perdition should ever be restored. For their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed. Now, this is 1833. So at this point, Joseph has had the great vision. In 1832, he saw outer darkness. He saw the telestial kingdom. He saw the terrestrial kingdom. He saw the celestial kingdom. He saw. And so Joseph post vision is saying this. Their state of destiny was not revealed to man is not revealed nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof. Now that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that's spicy. Sometimes you want to learn by experience. I'm guessing in this one you do not. Consequently. So again, what's going on? Clearly this Brother Hewlett. Brother Hewlett has been saying that even the devils can be redeemed, and Joseph is correcting him. Those who teach this doctrine have not received it from the spirit of the Lord. Truly, Brother Oliver Cowdery declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We therefore command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion. We sanction the decision of the bishop and his council in relation to this doctrine being a bar of communion. So this is a big enough problem. Enough people are teaching this as though it's true that the bishop in Zion, in Missouri has actually had to try to discipline people for teaching it. And they're still teaching it. And Joseph is sanctioning the idea. Listen, if you're going to continue to openly teach this doctrine which has never been revealed, then you are not worthy of to. To have the sacrament or you're not worthy to be in full communion with the Church. They don't have all the different levels of. Of discipline that we do today. But it's clearly a big enough issue that Joseph has to write and say, hey, stop teaching this. It hasn't been revealed. It won't be be revealed. Stop teaching it. I thought it might be helpful also then, since we're talking about doctrine covenant, section 76, to go see the way that Joseph talks about predition and the sons of predition in his 1843 Rewriting of Doctrine Covenant, Section 76, when he writes it into the poetic form. Oh, that'd be great because this is kind of. You could. You could at least say, well, this is a. You know, what is Joseph thinking later on after many, many, many more revelations that take place. And so let's, let's go take a look at that. This is going to sound pretty similar to what's in your scriptures, doctrine covenant, section 76, but Joseph rewrites it into poetic verse and then it's published in the Times and Seasons, 1843. And I saw and bear record of warfare in heaven. For an angel of light in authority great rebelled against Jesus and sought for his power, but was thrust down to woe from his godified state. Now think about that. What a. What a phrase to use a godified state. In the. The manuscript, it may have been that Joseph did not intend godified. So before anyone rushes out in the manuscript, it actually reads deified, which is like, yeah, but anyway. And the heavens all wept and the tears dropped like dew, that Lucifer, son of the morning had fell. Yea, is fallen, is fallen and become, O alas, the son of perdition, the devil of hell. And while I was yet in the spirit of truth, the commandment was, write ye the vision all out for Satan, old serpent, the devil's for war, and yet will encompass the saints roundabout. And I saw to the suffering and misery of those overcome by the devil in warfare and fight, in hellfire and vengeance, the doom of the damned. For the Lord said, the vision is further so right. For thus saith the Lord now concerning all those who know of my power and partake of the same, and suffer themselves that they be overcome by the power of Satan, despising my name, defying my power and denying the truth, they are they of the world or of men most forlorn, the sons of perdition, of whom, ah, I say twere better for them that they'd never been born. Their vessels of wrath and dishonor to God, doomed to suffer his wrath in the regions of woe through the terrific night of eternity's round, with the devil of all of his angels and all of his angels below, of whom it is said, no forgiveness is given in this world, alas, nor the world that's to come. For they denied the spirit of God after having received it, and misery is their doom. And denying the only begotten God, and crucifying him to themselves as they do, and openly Put him to shame in their flesh. By the Gospel they cannot repentance renew. They are they who must go to that great lake of fire which burneth with brimstone, yet never consumes, and dwell with the devil and angels of his while eternity goes and eternity comes. They are they who must groan through the great second death and are not redeemed in the time of the Lord, while all the rest are, through the triumph of Christ, made partakers of grace by the power of his word. The mystery of godliness truly is great. The past and the present and what is to be. And this is the Gospel glad tidings to all which the voice from the heaven bore record to me. So it's, it's pretty expansive there that Joseph is making very clear that these sons of perdition, eternities upon eternities, don't have the ability to repent. Joseph's going to make a reference to this as well in the, the well known King Fallet sermon where he's going to talk about those who become perdition. He says all sins and blasphemy were to be forgiven except for the sin against the Holy Ghost. God has made a provision for every spirit in the eternal world and the spirit of our friend should be searched out and saved. Any man that has a friend in eternity can save him. If he has not committed the unpardonable sin. He cannot be damned throughout all eternity. There is a possibility of escape in a little time. If a man has knowledge he can be saved. If he's been guilty of great sins, he's punished for it. When he consents to obey the gospel, whether alone, alive or dead, he is saved. His own mind damns him. This is where we get the great line from Joseph. I have no fear of hellfire that don't exist. Right? Everyone's always condemning Joseph to hell and he's like, well, jokes on you. It doesn't actually exist. No man can commit the unpardonable sin until he receives the Holy Ghost. All will suffer until they obey Christ himself. Even the devil said, I am a Savior and can save all, and rose up in rebellion against God and was cast down. Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition. Again, this is this radical Latter Day Saint theology. Not that Jesus Christ can save all. Not that, that. Oh, you know, if Jesus wanted to, he could save everyone from eternal hellfire. Jesus is going to save everyone except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? They must receive the Holy Ghost and Have the heavens opened unto them and know God and then sin against him. And this kind of goes to my point and where we kind of loop back around and we begin to intersect with Aquinas, where when we talk about sinfulness in this world, I mean, we all know people that sin. Now, this is my opinion here. So this is not, you know, you can take. Give this as much credit as you give Thomas Aquinas's. My opinion is that they, the fallen spirits, including the devil, they can't repent and they can't change because repentance and change is necessitated by an increase of knowledge. Right. So I'm a degenerate, you know, crook and a thief. And I break into everybody's houses. I breaking into Richard's house right now, under the pretext of this podcast recording, stealing everything that he has. Every Oklahoma state, you know, burnt orange thing. I can get out into my car.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Burnt orange would be Texas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, sorry.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. No.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What kind of orange are you?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Obnoxiously loud orange.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Loud orange?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, very loud.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Very neon. Not neon. It's not neon, see?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, but it is. It is in your face. Burnt is a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's a little softer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's an earthier tone.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I think. I think that's what we're going for. But if I get touched by the Holy Spirit, it might cause me to repent as I see Jesus as my Savior and I ask God to forgive me. When we talk about people in this world repenting, it is almost always surrounding the idea of knowledge to the point where we regularly say things like, if only she knew that she was a daughter of her heavenly Father, she wouldn't act like that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Why? I mean, for sure, right? I mean, like, if there was no veil. Yeah, I mean, Jesus on the cross is a perfect example of that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If there was no veil, imagine that there's no veil of forgetting sinfulness, and all of us remember with perfect certitude our premortal life with God and Jesus, would you still sin? Would you still have questions about how exactly ceilings are going to work in the next life? If you had no veil of forgetfulness and that you, for eons upon eons, knew that the entire purpose of this life was to come, get a body and be faithful. The whole reason there is a veil, or at least apparently is so that you can be tried and be tested. But what if there wasn't a veil? What if you remembered right now, listening to me, having spent billions upon billions or whatever that number is, years with your heavenly father, it wouldn't be that hard to know what's right, would it? It wouldn't be that hard to have faith in what is to come. Because you knew God, you knew your father perfectly well. Such is the state of those fallen spirits, including Lucifer. Her. They were already in the presence of God. There was no veil of forgetfulness. The veil is here in mortality. They knew God and knowing who their father was, however many eons upon eons that they lived with him, they made a choice to rebel against him. So what knowledge could they now learn that would cause them to repent in many ways? Aaron, what you said first is that you know they wouldn't. Or at least your brother in law said in, in part. That's, that's what I would say. The reality is they already have all knowledge. I mean at least to the extent that a spirit can have it in the premortal life. They already have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. Let's put it that way. They already have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. They already have a perfect knowledge of God. Right? The devils also believe and tremble, right? And that knowledge did not change their behavior, nor does it change their behavior. So what exactly could happen that would change it? What knowledge is there that is greater than a perfect knowledge of God and Jesus? It's not a question of whether or not he's your Father, not a question of whether or not Jesus is your Savior, perfectly knowing that he's your Savior, perfectly knowing you still would if you could crucify him again. I think that's why the depths of that depravity is such that there is no change. There's no ability to change. When Brigham Young in a sermon in Utah, he made reference to the fact that someone said that he would pray for that he would pray if it would do any good for the devils in hell. And Brigham's response was it is not for you to pray for them because any damned to this becomes sons of perdition. You can pray for all the rest. You can pray for your persecutors, those that persecute you. But. But those that become sons of perdition. This is my testimony. He goes on to quote doctrine Section 17, not the last of all, which is written in the vision, though that is the greatest vision I ever knew delivered to any of the children of men. It incorporates more in a few pages than any other revelation I have any knowledge of. This is the gospel of salvation. This is our testimony. So there are some references to it. But I think what we would say is Joseph says that the ultimate destiny is not revealed and that it is false doctrine for anyone to teach that they could in some way be redeemed. Personally, I don't comprehend how it would be possible given the fact that with their perfect knowledge, they've already chosen against God. And that's how someone who's immortal becomes a son of predition. It's not because you're a really bad person. It's not because you, you know, you crossed against the light too many times. It's not because you just, you know, kept betting on the Bears to go to the playoffs. That, yeah, it feels like prediction, but it's not perdition.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I feel like Satan's got a better chance at repenting than the Bears making the playoffs.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that's Richard. As a Bears fan, how do you become a son of British and Joseph explains it. You have to have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. You have to have the heavens open to you and see your Savior and know that he is Jesus and know that he died for you. And even knowing that, say I would if I could crucify you again. Now, it's hard to imagine that level of depravity, but for the purposes that we're talking about, I think in many ways Aquinas though wrong about what angels are and many other things. And not knowing about a pre existence, he is right in the sense that once having made that choice with perfect knowledge, what other knowledge could they possibly receive that would change what it is they believe? I think we don't have to worry. As President Oaks said. Right. Most of us should not be sitting up at night wondering whether or not they're about to become a son of perdition. That, that, that shouldn't be the fear that motivates you. But it is interesting how the theology of salvation that is given through the atonement of Jesus Christ and, and, and given clearly through the prophet Joseph Smith, how it causes us to ask some of these deeper questions. So hopefully Aaron, your brother in law, allows that question about salvation and about creation and about the pre existence to work in him until he comes to realize that this really is Jesus Christ's church, that he is called prophets, and that the entire purpose of this world is for heavenly fathers, sons and daughters to become like he is. So thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.