S5E22 Anti-Mormon Claims on Social Media

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: Season 5, Episode 22 – Anti-Mormon Claims on Social Media

Release Date: May 22, 2025

In this engaging episode of the Standard of Truth podcast, hosts Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve into the challenges faced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) in the age of social media. The episode tackles the spread of anti-Mormon sentiments online, analyzing both historical and contemporary claims while offering strategies for faith preservation and understanding.

Hosts’ Banter and Introduction

The episode opens with light-hearted banter between Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc, setting a casual and approachable tone. Dr. Dirkmaat humorously references their co-host's correct title, emphasizing the friendly rapport between the two historians.

Listener Shout-Outs and Personal Updates

Dr. Dirkmaat begins by acknowledging a listener, Tony, whom he spotted at one of Kai’s basketball games. He shares a personal update about Kai’s battle with pneumonia, adding a heartfelt touch to the episode. At [02:04], Dr. Leduc interjects with a humorous remark about conditioning, reflecting the hosts' ability to intertwine personal anecdotes with their discussions.

Missionaries and Personal Experiences

The conversation shifts to missionaries, where Dr. Dirkmaat recounts an encounter where he attempted to share the podcast with missionaries at a restaurant. Dr. Leduc humorously describes chasing them down, likening the experience to a "pretty rough" situation due to Kai’s illness ([03:21]). This segment highlights the hosts' real-life interactions with missionaries and the challenges of disseminating information about their podcast.

Listener Email: Liz’s Experience

At [06:08], Dr. Dirkmaat introduces an email from Liz, a parent whose daughter endured continuous episodes of the Standard of Truth podcast during a long drive from Error, Arizona, to BYU, Idaho. Liz shares that her daughter became curious about Dr. Dirkmaat's appearance, leading to humorous interactions involving screenshots of his image. This anecdote underscores the podcast's reach and impact on listeners’ daily lives.

Fun with Yoohoo Chocolate Drink

Leslie Ryan sends the hosts a case of Yoohoo Chocolate drink, sparking a playful debate about its drinkable properties. Dr. Dirkmaat humorously theorizes about the drink’s freezing point, while Dr. Leduc jokes about using it as a teaching tool with youth, emphasizing the light-hearted moments that balance the more serious topics discussed.

Christie's Corner: Listener Engagement

The segment "Christie's Corner" is introduced through an email from Christie, who appreciates the podcast and shares her own ideas. The hosts discuss the origins of the segment and its purpose to provide listeners with pithy statements for Sunday school discussions. At [21:13], Christie’s enthusiastic feedback reinforces the community-building aspect of the podcast.

Listener Email: Eric on Hindus and Buddhists

At [36:32], Dr. Leduc presents an email from Eric, who explores the theological and philosophical parallels between LDS beliefs and Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. Eric appreciates aspects of these religions, such as reincarnation and enlightenment, and draws comparisons to LDS concepts like eternal progression and exaltation. The hosts engage in a thoughtful discussion, acknowledging the beauty in diverse religious philosophies while affirming the unique doctrinal foundations of the LDS faith.

Critical Listener Email: Katie on "Sex Trafficking in the Early Church"

One of the most intense segments features an email from Katie, who references a supposed quote from Heber C. Kimball regarding sex trafficking in the early LDS Church. Dr. Dirkmaat responds passionately, dissecting the authenticity of the quote and its historical context. At [48:34], he explains that the quote lacks credible sourcing and context, emphasizing the importance of verifying information before accepting it as truth.

Dr. Dirkmaat elaborates on the 1860 New York Times article, highlighting its partisan nature and anti-Mormon bias ([54:53]). He meticulously debunks the fabricated claims by analyzing the article's origins, pointing out the lack of historical evidence supporting the allegations. Dr. Leduc adds that such salacious claims are often propagated by biased sources aiming to tarnish the church's reputation without substantial proof.

Addressing Anti-Mormon Sentiments on Social Media

Throughout the episode, the hosts stress the importance of critical thinking and cautious consumption of information found on social media platforms. Dr. Dirkmaat advises listeners to:

1. Verify Sources: Always check the original source of any controversial quote or claim.
2. Context Matters: Understand the context in which a statement was made to avoid misinterpretation.
3. Avoid Panic: Recognize that many online attacks are unfounded and driven by bias rather than facts.
4. Protect Mental Well-being: Take steps to reduce exposure to harmful content if it leads to distress.

Dr. Leduc echoes these sentiments, emphasizing that most individuals leaving the LDS Church do not transition to religions like Hinduism or Buddhism but rather adopt agnostic or atheist positions. He supports this by referencing Pew Research polls indicating that the majority of ex-members view their departure as a move away from the faith rather than toward another organized religion.

Conclusion and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc reiterate the significance of understanding historical and contemporary anti-Mormon claims within a broader context. They underscore the necessity for members of the LDS community to engage thoughtfully with criticism, uphold their beliefs with informed knowledge, and foster resilience against unfounded online attacks.

Dr. Dirkmaat closes by encouraging listeners to share the podcast with others who might benefit from its insights, reinforcing the podcast's mission to strengthen faith and historical understanding among Latter-Day Saints.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [48:42]: "If someone apostatizes from our faith finds the beauty, and there is beauty in these religions... they still wouldn't answer some of the questions."

• Dr. Richard Leduc [36:50]: "If the church isn't true, then that means that they were going to become a Hindu."

• Katie's Email [48:15]: "Can you please speak on this course quote I attached?"

This episode of Standard of Truth provides a comprehensive exploration of the myriad ways anti-Mormon sentiments proliferate on social media, offering listeners both historical context and practical advice on navigating these challenges with faith and discernment.

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor. Foreign. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined in person together again, like the Muppet song of yore, with my co host, Richard. Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's actually Richard. Dr. Leduc. You said it right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Dr. Richard. Doctor. He. He wants to make sure we get the doctor. And so it's Dr. Richard. Dr. Leduc. Doctor. It's Senior. Yeah. Esquire.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. We have so much to get to in this week's episode.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We'll get to none of it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's no time for banter.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've been trying to answer a question for. For three weeks. Well, frankly, we've been trying to answer a question for four years.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Any question we've done horribly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So. So, yes, this relates to Hindus and Buddhists, and just me saying that increases the likelihood that we'll talk about it in this episode.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We're not going to talk about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is. I think it is a mildly interesting question that we could get to potentially, but we won't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All right, let's go.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right. Jumping straight into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, wait. I want to give a shout out to someone I saw at one of Kai's basketball games. Yes, Tony, who is a listener and recognized me. Unfortunately, it's a bad day. Kai's been super sick. Like, he had pneumonia, so he can't breathe at all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Now, that. That hurts for conditioning.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it makes it pretty rough to run. That's that. I've always said that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I wouldn't know anything about that. I've never ran in my life.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You've never ran anywhere?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. Why would a person run unless they're being chased?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's true. Well, you know, on the mission, they used to say, you don't have to run faster than the dog or the person chasing you with a knife.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Just your companion.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Just have to run faster than your companion. So, yeah, that's. That's some good missionary lore for you. Speaking of missionaries, sometimes we have people email saying, how do we get. How do we get our child on. No missionary. Actually emails, because why would they want it? But but parents desperate to send something to their missionaries, you know, for their birthday or something. All we need is for you to email the podcast at Questions Standard of the truth. Questions Standard Truth Podcast.com. we made it a really long email to make it very difficult.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You can click on the link on in the description. It is there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And just send in the request with their missionary.org email and then we will get them on a Google Drive and.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And they can access them. So I actually had an experience with some missionaries yesterday. I saw missionaries. It looked like they were heading to a restaurant. I chased them down, I followed them. And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Creepy yet?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, not at all. And so I. So my wife, every time she sees missionaries, she always, you know, they're always got their hand out. They're always asking for stuff.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Missionaries, they just money grubbers. That's why instead of going to school or working, they've sacrificed two years of their life. That's why.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, she always. And I'm like, I'm in a hurry. I'm always like Ebenezer Scrooge going to the market. I don't have time to talk to Tiny Tim or anybody. I've got business to do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you see missionaries and you go, bah, humbug. Pretty much, missionary works a humbug.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And she always responds, your son is on a mission. How would you feel if someone treated your son? And I'm like, okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, well, he's been robbed 17 times. I'm actually being a lot better than.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm not robbing them. That's. Yeah, but I think she met our son in Spain. He never was robbed. Well, he was kind of robbed once.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Plus, he's home from his mission now. That's. That was just ptsd.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Anyway, I'm like, you know, it softens me every time. So now when I see missionaries, I'm like, all right, you know, because my son's coming home in a couple weeks, and I will have no sons on missions. And it's way more expensive to have kids not on missions than on missions. But anyway, so I. They went to a restaurant and. And, you know, I pulled in, and I'm like, hey, you know what, guys? I got your. I got your dinner or whatever. And they're like, oh, that's very nice. Thank you. And I was like, I should tell them about the. The podcast. And you were prompted. No, no, no, no. This was not the spirit. Elder Bednar gave a really great talk about. Whether it's the spirit or whatever. If it's something good, just do it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But Trying to parse it was not something good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was self. Yeah, right. No, it certainly wasn't. So I went to try. So it's tough when you're trying to tell them about a podcast that you're on and trying to make it not seem like an enormous idiot or jerk about it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's kind of like when people will come up to me to talk to me about a book and I'm like, oh, I'm not really familiar with that book. And then I find out it's a self published book that they wrote. They wrote. And it's like, oh, okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So halfway through the. The attempted description of the podcast and telling them that I will give it to him for free, the look on their faces was one of. I'm familiar with that look. I have children.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, so. So it was. It was. What do we have to say to this guy to get him to stop talking to us?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But they didn't have to say anything. The look on their face was like, you know what? You guys enjoy your dinner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Have a good one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I just left. I just. I pulled. I pulled the rip cord and mid. Mid description of the podcast and just turned around and left.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. So you didn't even tell them they could get the podcast?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was in the middle of it. They didn't want it and it was okay. Anyway, so there you go. This email comes to us from Liz, the subject mom of the girl from the Chili's restaurant. My daughter was forced to listen to continuous episodes of the Standard of Truth podcast as I drove her to byu, Idaho from Error, Arizona this past January. My goodness.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Even if she's going from Flagstaff, that's still a fall.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I still feel like there are planes. Can't get your stuff.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Stuff up there. Yeah. But it's a long drive and hours into the show. She was curious what Garrett looked like, so she don't want to know. So she yooed it his image weeks later, which is the best.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Speaking of which, Leslie Ryan sent us two cases of Yoohoo Chocolate drink or. I don't. Are they even allowed to call it a drink?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They're not allowed to call it chocolate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not milk.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's like when Oreo had to change the spelling of cream because it wasn't cream.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now why is it their French?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's lard that's white.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, yeah, a Yoohoo.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Which by the way, delicious by the way, just for the record.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, is it Oreo? Oreos. Oreos. Oh, great. Well, so I tried drinking some of the Yoo hoo. I hadn't had one for a while. I put it in the fridge for 48 hours. 48 hours. I took it out immediately. I didn't take it out and set it there. I took it out immediately, put the straw in it began drinking, was 80 degrees. I don't know. I personally don't understand the physics behind how something that is water. Well, cannot get cold. It. You can't drink. Yoohoo. It won't get cold.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So I put it in the freezer. That's my next. And then I'm gonna see if I can get it to freeze. What I'm imagining is that it has like a freezing point somewhere. It's in the Kelvin scale.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I have to feed. Figure out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Where that point is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Negative 270 Celsius to drink it just above that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then I think it'll be good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, regardless, it was a very thoughtful gift.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. I mean, look, Leslie and Ryan are awesome. Leslie's one of the funniest people anyone ever.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Our ward has a youth conference coming up. I'll be taking them up to that and I'll be sharing it with the youth. And they'll say. And they'll say, what's this? I'm like, it's chocolate milk.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they'll say, why is it 80 degrees?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

How hot does it? Because it does. Also doesn't have a boiling point. That's the problem. No freezing point.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's got a viscosity properties of mercury where it's just. It's impossible to get to a solid state. And it can't become a gas either. I don't, I don't know. I mean, look, Becky loves this stuff.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She grew up on it. Yeah, yeah, she loves it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But she doesn't go buy it and drink it, does she? No, no, no, no.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I have a job now. And so we were able to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's funny. I was just talking to one of the other basketball moms during the game and we were talking about how we, you know, we used to eat things like Sloppy Joes and Hamburger Helper because someone was like, oh, we'll make Sloppy Joy for all the boys. And I'm like, I Nope, nope. And she said the same thing. Like, no, I. Yeah, yeah, of course we used to eat that. We were forced to. You know, she. And Edgy was like, yeah. I remember I suggested some Hamburger Helper to someone the other day. And then I was like, I don't. I don't know if I could really do that again? Look, for years it's all wember.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Helper was great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Now we're living high on the hog and eating the prepackaged lunch meats that are 79 cents at Walmart.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So it's funny. So my wife feels that way about Manwich with sloppy jokes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I cannot stand.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So sloppy Joe, my. My sister in law, she likes a nice, a good bandwich. And so when we'd get together as family, big family, she would say, all make sloppy Joes. My wife has gone out of the way to hide the Manwich that was in her pantry so that we would have to do something else for.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. So here's the thing. I like beef. Sure, you can do almost anything to beef. Literally just throwing it into the frying pan and cooking it up as just seasoned beef. That is better than turning it into Manwich.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh yeah, man. Which is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or any, frankly any sloppy Joe's. I'm not a fan.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, you're not?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'd rather. I would rather.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. I like a decent no Joe.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No. No, you don't. Okay, let me ask you this question. Do you ever say, I wish I had a sloppy joe instead of a hamburger. Do you ever say that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Are you ever saying no one's ever said that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so no one's ever said the words, I can't wait to get me a sloppy Joe.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, you. You come home and what do we. Sloppy Joe's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And you tolerate it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, thank you. Thank you for making sloppy jokes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, there's a lot of things I still like from when I was newly married and Angie and I lived in a 200 square foot apartment. Like, I still like ramen noodle. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. I mean, I still like milk. Yeah, sure. But even then I couldn't afford Yoohoo. Who could go buy a chocolatey water drink?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Weeks later, she went on a girls trip to Utah and heard. This is Liz's email.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, back to Liz's email.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Liz probably doesn't have an opinion on you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. Weeks later, she went on a girls trip to Utah and heard him talking so loud with his friends at the Chili's. Immediately she recognized the face and matched Garrett's distinct voice. She told. She took a selfie and called her mom, who's a fan, because I know nothing historical unless it's scandalous and. Or explained in a super interesting way. Side note, I'd worry about grammatical errors, but since Richard can't read and I teach, which I've already flubbed several times, and I teach high school Math. Who's going to be checking? Well, no one is. Also it's May. So literally no one cares about anything that's the most Teacher.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, she's a teacher.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My wife's the same thing. She's like I have three more days and anyway, just ask my 17 year old students if in fact you can capture their attention. I was listening to the episode about babies in Mongolia versus infants born in America or Europe and the difference in their salvation and it got me thinking. Remember the 1990s youth firesides. We'd be told things like just think of all the families you could have been born to and yet you've been born in America to a family that's already members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I think in the 90s we would have said that are Mormon. But yeah, yeah you're so lucky and chosen. Fast forward to 2025. That sounds crazy exclusionary and like everyone else was less than. Get it like less than in math. That's a math.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Only a math teacher can make that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Joke or think that it would be funny enough to put it into an email.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Blaze Pascal would be like, you know what?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, you know what Liz, well done. That's witty. I'm just kidding. That is very funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Pythagoras have to go back to Pythagoras.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

If they were born in some other country to a non believing family. Yet in the 90s I no reason to doubt that I was a little bit luckier than others because of my birth circumstances. The Mongolia vs White Baby discussion sounds oddly familiar to that concept. Did we grow up low key Calvinists? Yikes. Also gracias. That's Spanish for thank you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thank you for estimating my, my poor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Multilingual skills for what you do each week. It helps me understand Jesus and Joseph in ways that decalvanize my past. That's an interesting perspective to think about.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so I understand where the person's coming from. I mean look, if you are a Latter Day Saint, I mean I've often thought that at least for this mortality I am lucky that I was born to into a Latter Day Saint family because I frankly I doubt that I would have believed otherwise. I mean I would have been, you know, pretty skeptical of the missionaries running from Richard and the restaurant trying to have him sell the food.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hey guys, it's free.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Come back. And then they saw me on the street and then and they're like hey, would you like to learn about Jesus? No, not from you. Who's that crazy guy chasing You. I mean, I understand the sentiment behind it, right. That, like, we should be very, very, very grateful that we have the gospel. And I'll tell you what. You only have to talk to people who've converted to the church later in life, and they are so grateful to have the gospel in their life. And they sometimes will say things like, people who've had it aren't grateful enough for it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My mom often helps to provide me with a perspective as she grew up Jewish and only later in life was introduced to the church that she didn't have primary. She didn't have all of these things that I took for granted as a young man. She's like you. You don't even know what you have.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You don't know the power of the dark side. That's what it sounded like she was gonna say. Emperor Palpatine. Your mom always quoting Emperor Palpatine, much like my mom, Garrett's mom, always. If it's the emperor, she's there. So, I mean, in some ways, I think you could see how that'd be carried too far, because God does not love us, people who are born into the church, any more than he loves everyone else. And that. Which. Which actually kind of proves the point. And I believe this was from Christie, so we get. We've got a lot of.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, this is from Liz.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, okay. Yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're about to get to Christie's Corner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I forgot.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Christie's Corner is coming around the corner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's coming around the corner. So, Liz, I think I understand what those people were trying to say, and I certainly heard the same things. If people felt like that that meant that God loved us more or that we were somehow better, I think then that obviously led us to this belief that was. That was erroneous and that was false, because God does love everyone. He is no respecter of persons. And the beauty of our gospel is that we actually legitimately have a way that everyone will actually be treated equally. Now, they won't be treated equally in mortality. And that is the reality. The reality is that kid who grows up, who never hears about the gospel, lives his whole life and dies, he will have, in reality, spent 70 years of mortality not having the answers that we have. And God, in his infinite wisdom and Jesus through the atonement, will be able to perfectly determine the salvation and the standing of that person. And so, yeah, I think. I mean, it is unfair in the sense that that someone goes without that knowledge, and yet we know that somehow God will make everything right in the eternities to come but yeah, it is unfortunate when we, if we start to go down low key Calvinist road. I mean that the beauty of the gospel is that in this life or the next, everyone will have an equal opportunity not just at salvation, because we already know that's it's coming for basically everybody. But exaltation, where everyone has an equal opportunity to go to the celestial kingdom.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I do think there's elements of that though that do leak their way into some of the prosperity theology and things, which is part of the reason I hate it so much. I mean, if you've served a foreign mission or you have a child or you've spent any time around people that live in humble circumstances that are far better than you and have far more faith and cling to this idea of if they only were more righteous that they would live in a mansion. Yeah, it makes you very angry.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. So, and that is, I do think that is that kind of the seeds of that. Look, what, what do we want to do as fallen mortals? What we want more than anything is to control life. We want to pat ourselves on the back about how great we are and we want to believe that we have the ability through our own righteousness or through our own actions to ultimately determine every single thing that takes place. Now it's weird that we think that because we know it's not true. Now there are people who still think that because they'll be like, oh, if only I would have prayed eight times a day instead of seven, maybe then this terrible thing wouldn't have happened to me. But that we know that evil things happen to good people. We know that, that, that very good people are placed in terrible circumstances and that is the vicissitudes of mortality. It is not God rendering his judgment as someone being good or not good. So I think there's going to be so much missionary work going on in the spirit world that a lot of what this feels like will change over the course of time. Because if you're preaching to people for a thousand years in the spirit world, then maybe the 50 years on earth won't seem quite as long.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this next email comes to us from Christie of Christie's Corner fame.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh wow. She emailed us back.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. And was she, did she grant us license to use her name in the way that we have or we'll have to say it was a different Christian?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did have a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know what? I know several people named Christy. That's who it's named after.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did have a, I did have a friend of Mine that sent me a text of an interaction that he had with a friend of his. And. And she texted him and said, hey, I know you know, Richard, I have this idea for Christie's Corner. I don't really have time to explain it. It's really confusing and stupid, but it's kind of funny. And so. But she gave an idea and the idea was way better than anything we've actually done, by the way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And we' doing it now, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, of course not, because it'd be a good idea.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we only do bad ideas.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But anyway, I thought that was very funny. So this is Chrissy's response to the doctors. Thank you so much for answering my question. Last week that we received the email a little bit ago. I put your podcast. I put on your podcast as I got ready to mow the lawn and almost fell off my chair. I know that doesn't make sense. Unless, of course, it's a riding lawnmower.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I was assuming that you're on a riding lawnmower, which could be very dangerous unless it has that kill switch. You need the kill switch to ass as you get up from it. It turns off when.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, I mean, she's mowing the lawn.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm guessing there's a rogue lawnmower just rolling through backyards everywhere.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She should have been working on her talk, obviously.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, she already had that down.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She listened to the podcast anyway. I. I know that doesn't make sense. When I heard my name come up and you answered my email, it was so cool and I shared it with everyone I know. Haha. Thank you. Thank you. And yes, I love Christie's Corner backwards R. You have my full permission to use it. Not that you need it at all. You are the best. And I love your podcast even more.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But she didn't tell us how her talk went.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm sure if she listened to anything that we said, it went terrible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, Christy, we need you to email us again and tell us, did you use anything we talked about, or is Christie's Corner corner utterly futile? It has no actual purpose.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so, I mean, we went with the alliteration on it. Chrissy's Corner doesn't even make any sense why it's called Christie's Corner other than her name is Christie Christie's. It's for. It's so Christie's Corner for those Aurum missionaries I ran into separate or I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Work in the Aura Mission, just chase missionaries down.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I met other missionaries and I. I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Didn'T force the podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did so. But that time I didn't talk about the podcast at all because I'm like, it went so poorly before. I'm not even going to bring it up. And I'm not. I'm not proud of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they brought it up to you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They did not know because they don't listen to it. Okay, but. So the whole idea of Christie's Corner is, look, why does anyone do anything religiously? It's so that they can talk about it in Sunday school.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why does anyone study the scriptures that they're supposed to study? No, it's so that they can.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Why does anyone do anything? It's so. Anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it's Calvinist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So some. So some might say that faith is. Is the. Is. It's an action word. It's the thing that causes the action. I have to have the faith before even doing anything. No, no, no, no. It is the desire to sound smart in gospel doctrine, which is why anyone is anything ever.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so that's why we laugh about the fact that while we're on that topic of Come follow me, everyone wants to know about section 50, right? The. Literally the week afterwards, people couldn't care about Section 50 at all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Which is why on the premium, we've been on section 20 for a month.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, there's a problem. Section 20 is big. There was a lot to it. And we got bogged down in the creeds of Christendom and what the Westminster Confession of Faith had to say. Say. I don't. Two episodes on that. We're. We're trying to. We're trying to help people understand. It's kind of like what. What Liz was thinking about Calvinism.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We're spending time on it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is true. But so. So the idea of Christie's. So Christy had to. She had to give a talk on Easter Sunday was a last minute. Last minute. She was late at.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, not her fault.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wasn't her fault.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

At least according to her.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She was obviously just saying that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sure.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So the idea was. Is. So she asked us a question specifically for. For Easter and Garrett and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, there's very little time left because she just found out. So we got the email like a couple days before her talk. And so we need to respond immediately.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Post haste. And. And then. So Garrett gave a very good. I don't remember what it was about.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So great. You don't remember what I said.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I remember the last Christie's Corner because it was. So Christie's Corner is supposed to be a quick hit. Something that. It's like two minutes and it gives you something Pithy to say in Sunday school.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Something to make you look smart in Sunday school.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. Because we're not gonna get. Because we're not gonna get to section 49 or 50 for. Till next year.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean. I mean, maybe, like, we're gonna skip over, like. Like 25, part of 33.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we'll skip over part of 35 and 36. I mean, we'll.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that's good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so. So I believe this week is. Is 49 and 50. Okay, now this is. Now this is Relief Society Elders Quorum. So. But still a great opportunity if a couple were to listen to this podcast together as they, you know, go to bed, they listen to the podcast, they say their prayers, you know, obviously it's a whole thing. Then one person can make a comment, and Relief Society, one person can make.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It very, you know, interesting that you even led with that, that a couple, a married couple could listen to it, because what do we get from section 49? This is the revelation that comes as a result of the fact that the Shaker. The Shakers are quite a powerful influence in the. In the Kirtland area. And several early members of the church come from this Shaker community. Now, I'm. You know what I should do just to test out our listeners? I should say how many of you have ever interacted with a Shaker? Please email us and let us know. And what you would find is that we would receive dozens of emails from people that would say that they've met Shakers. Yeah, and the sad part about that is, no, they haven't.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They met a. Perhaps a Quaker.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. They might have met a Quaker or maybe they met a Jehovah's Witness or a Methodist. Maybe they met a lot of. They say, you know, but. But they haven't met a Shaker. I mean, maybe. I mean, if you've been to Sabbath Day, Lake, Maine, in the past five years, that's possible that you might have met one or two Shakers. Now, you couldn't have met three Shakers because there are only two Shakers left. There's only two Shakers left at all. Arnold and June. They. They are the last two known Shakers and followers, adherents of the rules, religion. And the section 49 is an interesting thing because the Shaker doctrine surrounded a couple of things. And you get some of this from. From the heading, from the section heading. I. You know what I really could do? I could really spend some time on the dating of this section. We could spend like, oh, boy, 25 minutes on that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, my gosh. Just the dating.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. In fact, do we have. I think we did do that once.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard's gonna put a link to section 49 that we talked about in our first season because we were talking about the dating that was in it and. And some of the doctrines that are in there. But Leman Copley is this converted Shaker, right. Who has left his Shaker commune nearby, and he's so excited about the gospel that he wants the elders to go preach to the Shakers. And so this revelation, Sidney Rigdon, Parley, Pratt, Lehman, Copley, they go up and they preach, and it ends up being a total disaster. Shakers come from a. A religious movement in the late 1700s that was founded by a woman by the name of Mother Ann Lee. And a huge part of the Shaker belief was that marriage, in fact. Well, so all sexual relations were wrong because they perpetuated sin. So think about this. If the goal is to create a sinless world, how in the world could you ever do that? Because if people are born sinners, then that means anyone being born means that there's still sin in the world. Now, the animals aren't sinners. In fact, many Shakers will become vegetarians and refuse to eat meat, although some won't. You'll see some of that in the revelation. But the biggest thing, and they actually call it taking up their cross, this is how they usually refer to lifelong celibacy. So if. If a married couple were to decide to join a Shaker commune and they lived communally together, men living in. In separate living quarters from women. So they. They were sex segregated, but they lived on communal farms and in communal homes where they shared things in common. They were incredibly fastidious about living their life religiously, but they were also seen as. As essentially being apostates from general Christianity. And I think a Latter Day Saint could feel a little bit of sympathy for the Shakers, not just because, you know, at least they're trying to do something about celibacy, but also one of the main reasons why other Christians are going to deem them heretical is that they have a different Christology or Christology than. Than the rest of Christianity. So they are not your standard Trinitarian Christians. Shakers instead believed. And you get a little bit. Like I said, you get a little bit of this from the section heading that says Shakers. Some Shakers for bad the eating of meat. They. Some of the beliefs of the Shakers were that Christ's second coming had already occurred and that it appeared in the form of a woman. Ann Le. To provide a little bit more detail on that section heading what Shakers believed. It's actually very interesting how I don't want to call them all heretical doctrines because Latter Day Saints are preaching doctrines that were once espoused by people like Origen. It's just that then they decided Origen was a heretic 300 years after he said it. You know, but one of the early arguments about the nature of Christ was a Gnostic belief that that in fact Jesus that was just a man, and that there was something called Christ Spirit or Christ is something different. That's the emanation of God that that had inhabited the man Jesus, and that. So Jesus Christ was two separate things. Jesus was the man. Christ was this God Spirit, God power that had been on him and that it had left him. And that's the reason why Jesus said, why is thou forsaken me? And so they don't believe that Jesus came back in power and glory and, you know, took the form of Ann Lee. They. What they believe is that Ann Lee herself also lived a perfect life and had the fullness of this. This God like Christ Spirit rest on her, and that that was Jesus second coming. So it wasn't a coming in power and glory. It was a coming of this Christ Spirit returning. Now, of course, that's deemed ridiculously heretical by other Christians. And Shakers are often persecuted. Sometimes people say, well, why weren't they persecuted the same way Latter Day Saints were? Well, there are some very key reasons why they weren't. One is that while Latter Day Saints insisted on their rights as Americans and participated in voting and things of that nature, the Shakers did not. Secondly, the Shakers were not a radically growing sect. I mean, they were certainly growing in the 1960s century, but there were never more than several thousand Shakers. Why? Well, it turns out that when you preach that to be a member of this religion, you have to be celibate for life, and that even if you are married, you and your husband then have to separate and there is no legitimate sexual relations. All sexual relations are considered sinful. And so taking up your cross is what they call it. You take up your cross of celibacy and you live in this communal lifestyle. Well, I don't have to tell you that there's not a lot of natural population growth among Shakers. There's no child of record baptisms among Shakers because you are excommunicated from a Shaker community. If you were, in fact, to get Pregnant or. Or to have sexual relations, because that's an essential part of their belief. There is some preaching, but primarily people join Shaker communes from the outside. They don't send missionaries out. They don't have child of record births. How did they grow at all? Well, many women fleeing abusive marriages are more than happy to go to the. The equality of treatment that they found in. In Shaker Commune. Second, at a time when there was. We actually had someone email and ask about adoption and how adoption worked. And while we won't be talking about this episode, there is no such thing as adoption laws in the United States. Laws that govern a child being adopted in any state in the United States until 1851. Okay. So long after Joseph Smith has been murdered, before even any states begin to regulate what happens with children if their parents are gone. Now, there are orphanages, but there aren't laws that are set up for them. They're all private affairs. And so Shakers became well known for the fact that if you had an unwanted child, you could go leave that baby on a Shaker commune's doorstep and like a fire station, and they would raise that child inside the Shaker community. And so one of the ways they. They grew was through adoption, was through people casting off their unwanted children at their doorstep. And so they grew in that way. When the later 19th century rolled around and the early 20th century and they started to regulate things like children just ending up wherever. And you start to get child welfare laws, adoption becomes regulated, and that means people can't just dump a baby off on a Shaker commune anymore. And so that it leads to a pretty precipitous decline in Shakers. Now, that was probably way longer than we were supposed to go, right, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, no. So it allowed me to find the episode. So it was. All right. So of all of the things of the restored gospel that people would care to know, our ninth episode was about this. Okay, that's hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Audio is going to be bad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, it's going to be.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So I'm going to. It's going to be the same me, so it's going to still be bad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'll be talking less, which is great, though. That's a serious pro.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We had to goad Richard into speaking.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it's been tough.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. We had. I mean, missionaries have to fight him off with a stick, but we have to force him to speak on the podcast anyway.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I'm going to. I'm going to rerelease that as a bonus.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, nice.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So people can listen to the full episode. But that, yeah, it's very interesting. So if you find that interesting, you can listen to an hour of it, the re release at the same time as this. So that'll be a nice bonus. And thank you to Christy for making all of this happen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thank you, Chris.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thank you, Christy. Okay, so this next email is about Hindus and Buddhists, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Along the lines with shakers. Right. So it's a different type of Christianity and now a different type of Eastern religion entirely.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this email comes to us from Eric as I continue enjoying catching up at 5 or 1.5x speed would actually be better. Everyone should listen to this podcast on 5x speed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, I sound like I'm Alvin and the Chipmunks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The only thing better than not listening to it at all is listening to it at 5x.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, that's what those missionaries were thinking.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's true. 1.5x. I find myself experiencing twinges of angst every time I hear Dr. D suggesting that anyone who leaves the church is left only with the option of other Christian sects or being agnostic or atheist. This simply isn't true. They can also turn to offshoots and permutations of Hinduism, including Buddhism, Taoism, etc. There are also many offshoots in modern New Age philosophies, which often blend elements of Christianity and Eastern traditions. My own experience, and that of many, many people I know, is that there is much in the Eastern religion philosophies that is beautiful, appealing, and in many ways can be seen as in parallel with principles of the gospel. One can substitute reincarnation, a reincarnation cycle for eternal progression and consequently see hope for all humankind and eventually advance in ways that could superficially be seen as similar to the plan of salvation. For example. Yes, their endpoint is usually some variation of disappearing into nothingness or oneness with the universe, which is an interesting parallel contrast. Exaltation and becoming one with God, requiring adherence to abandon, hope of eternal families, and so on. The email kind of goes on and on, but he goes on to make that claim that, you know, it sounds like a criticism, and I suppose it is, but I'm listening, loving it, and sending you feedback. Thank you, Eric.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, we've, we have. I mean, it sounds like you're still going through the podcast. And so we have, we have, of course, referenced some of those things before. But having. Having talked with people that are having faith crises on literally hundreds of occasions, I can say, at least from my anecdotal perspective, that not a single time have I had Someone who legitimately considered the idea that if the church isn't true, then that means that they were going to become a Hindu. And so, I mean, a lot of it is really just the reality of who's. Who's listening.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it possible that someone who apostatizes from our faith finds the beauty? And there is beauty in these religions? As Brigham Young said, all their leaders were inspired by God for the truths that they have. Right. The reality is that if you believe that Jesus is your savior, it's very difficult to go from that to believing that Jesus is not. Because the same thing that makes you say Jesus isn't God, pretty generally becomes the thing that makes you say there isn't a God at all. Now, now, in theory. Sure. In theory. I mean, I've said multiple times that one of the aspects of Hinduism that is so, I think, impressive is that they've actually wrestled with the idea of. Of. Of fairness. Life is horribly unfair. People horribly suffer in this life. How can you make sense of it? And reincarnation helps do that. Well, the reason why you're poor and the reason why you've been treated like garbage and the reason why so many bad things have happened to you in this life is because in a previous life, you were a terrible person. So there's this idea of. Of. Of revolution, retributive justice that. That comes in that. And so certainly in theory, someone could say, well, if I don't believe that Jesus is God anymore, maybe I could go to Hinduism and believe that there's tens of thousands of gods. You know Richard's favorite God, right? The monkey God. Where?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Honeymoon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's his favorite God. Simply because the monkeys at the place get drunk off of the.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They get offerings. Absolutely blitzed. And they throw whatever it is that they throw.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

300 drunk monkeys jumping out of bed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

One falls off and broke his head. Mom called the doctor. The doctor said, no more Hennessy for the monkeys. So I think what we deal with mostly on the podcast is, is practicality in that sense. Theoretically, could someone leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to become a Hindu? Yes. And even if someone says, oh, I anecdotally know someone who did, statistically, it's. The number is so low that even if that's a theoretical possibility, it's not one. That's. That is enough. In actuality, it's almost like President Oaks talking in conference.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Too few.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

When he's. Yeah. When he's talking about how everyone's going to a kingdom of heaven, he says with Exceptions too few to discuss here. Of course, President Oaks knows that there's some people going to outer darkness, but it's almost a waste of time to have that discussion in a general conference setting because the point is almost everyone is going to heaven. That's the point to get across.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, I mean, we tried to run some numbers. It's really tough given, you know, what we know or what we don't know. So how many, you know, Latter Day Saint resignations are there that exist per year? What does that number look like in the US and globally? There was a Pew Research poll, a couple of them that talk about people that leave their faith and where they go. And so we kind of tried to cobble that together. And based on the number of, you know, global members of the church, you know, it's 17 and a half million, depending on, you know, whether you, you know, subscribe to the Salt Lake Tribune or not. What, in terms of what they would put estimates of resignations, I mean, 2.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Million per year, per hour, every 10 minutes, 75,000 people.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, I mean, the number is, is an estimate based on those things, which are, which are crude measurements, but it's, it's going to be around 500 to 1,000 per year. Like, at the most, that would leave Latter Day Saints and go to Buddhist. And the majority, the recommendation or the suggestion is Buddhism over Hinduism.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sure. And in the United States at least, I mean, look, in other countries, it would make sense. I mean, both Buddhism and Hinduism are very cultural, just like Christianity is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, My buddy that served in Cambodia, it was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So let's say you, you, you know, converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a majority Buddhist country, you could then see why if someone apostatized from the church in that country, that they would go back to their traditional beliefs or their family beliefs for our purposes in an English speaking podcast that, you know, is primarily directed to. To English. The English speaking world. World. Yes. I mean, I have at times had someone say, well, I've thought about aspects of Buddhism, but even those people ended up becoming agnostics. It is very difficult to go from believing you have a savior, Jesus Christ, to believing that Jesus is just a man and at the same time maintain the belief, you know, in gods. Now, of course in Buddhism, you know, that the ideas of peace, the idea of enlightenment, those are these powerful aspects of that that allow people to do that. But I think that a lot of times among former Christians, not just former Latter Day Saints, there's a lot more, you know, people, it's Almost like someone saying, I'm spiritual but not religious kind of thing. Where. Where they say, oh, you know, I follow Buddhism. But what they mean is they, like some Buddhist teachings, are they going to Buddhist temples? Are they. Are they actually practicing it in a way that would be recognized in other countries Will. Probably not. Again, anyone can find an exception, but statistically speaking, it's. We don't spend a ton of time on that, primarily because that's not where people are going. I mean, as people leave our church, the numbers suggest that when they leave, they most often leave to agnosticism or atheism. They don't even leave to Christianity. And so I think. I think, yeah, I mean, more cultural, you know, religions like. Like Hinduism, where there's, you know, 10,000 gods. Actually more than that. That's a pretty tough sell for someone who believes that there's only one God to go from that to believing that. And so it doesn't happen very often. Could it happen? Of course. Has happened.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Of course.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it what's going on with most of our followers? No. Most of our followers are confronted with. Our listeners are confronted with differing Christian arguments about how the Jesus you believe in is the wrong Jesus, about how the salvation you espouse is the wrong salvation. It's much more difficult for someone to go to believing that there is no Jesus, that there is no salvation, that all of the Israelite history in the Old Testament, all of the Christian history in the New Testament, all of it's false, including the Book of Mormon is also false. When someone gets to that point where they're rejecting all of those things, they rarely dive into fully another religion, even if they admire some of its teachings and some of its tenets. Because, you know, it still wouldn't answer some of the questions. Right. It wouldn't answer some of the questions of. Of existence in that. In that regard. So, you know, fair point. But we will probably continue to focus primarily on Christianity simply because that's what nearly all of our listeners are the. The where they're coming from.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, Garrett, this next one is a dander up kind of a question.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. We have about 15 minutes left in the episode.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We may not get to it then.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Let's see. Let's see how we do this. This email comes to us from Katie, and the. The subject line caught. Caught your attention. Sex trafficking in the early church.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yep, there we go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And the dander's up and.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, so I'll read her email first and then the quote.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm hoping that the subject is. Is her quoting someone.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a foresting someone.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Something. Not, not. Not the way that she's decided to describe it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't, I don't believe that she believes this. That I think she's heard this and that she's like, what? Yeah, that's. That's the way I choose to believe, Katie.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. All right. Well, you choose a lot of things.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, well, she starts with. She starts with I love your podcast, which makes me think she has excellent taste.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, clearly she has terrible taste.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I love your podcast and I'm slowly making my way through it from the beginning. I've had lots of friends and family leave the church and I really enjoy learning from you on how to decipher some of these things from history. Can you please speak on this course quote I attached? I know you're busy, but would really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Sincerely, Katie. Okay, so here's the quote. It's from Heber C. Kimball.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it's clearly a screenshot from a. From either Instagram, Facebooks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The Facebooks or the Instagrams.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The tweets.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The tweet. The Twitter's. Yes. Okay, so it comes from something observing from afar, which is highly reputable, I'm sure on the Facebooks or the Twitter.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How many Pulitzers did they win today?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this is from Apostle. So this is Apostle Heber C. Kimball. So you know that they mean that with all the respect. And this is from the New York Times. April 17, 1860. It was a great year for corn, by the way. Brethren is a quote. Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries that have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here and bringing on the ugly ones for us hereafter. You have to bring them all here before taking any of them and let us all have a fair shake. Apostle Hebrew C. Kimball through the roof.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What does she have more commentary on that or.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, that's. That's all there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So. Okay, there's a couple of problems here and I do not want to. I don't want anyone listening to think that I am responding politically to what someone thinks or doesn't think. The New York Times. Times is today. I understand that in. In today's highly politicized climate, people, they fight a lot of proxy wars with their political beliefs to the point where if someone, you know doesn't like, you know, Fox News or someone doesn't like the New York Times that, you know, they become the enemy simply because of the news outlet that they don't like. Right, right. But first and foremost, this, this, you know, little cut out of here. Let me just rant for a second, okay? I'm pleading with everybody listening. I'm pleading nothing that you see as a cut and paste quote in an Instagram or X posting in a Facebook post. Should you ever take as as totally true or accurate. If you find yourself being troubled by something that some anti Mormon posts on the Internet, you need to kind of take a step away from that. If you aren't able to let those things water off a duck's back, then, then you need to take a step back from it because that's actually the goal, the goal of antagonists to, to attack portions of our faith and to cause us to doubt. And we don't have to be on Instagram. Now I'm pretty sure we're getting a call from the attorneys of Instagram right now telling us that yes, you do, you don't have to be on social media, you do have to have a testimony. I'm not saying this is the case with Katie, but I'm talking about generally for people. So if you find yourself on the daily, frustrated, upset, troubled by antagonistic things that people post on the Internet, it's almost like the angel told Joseph that his name would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindred stuns and people. And you only need to be on social media for a second to know that that's true. So I would advise first and foremost, you will never ever be able to respond to every single salacious thing that is thrown out there. The very fact it is being thrown out there is a demonstration that the person doing it is not being an honest broker about the past or about your faith. So, so you know this, you know, New York Times, April 17, 1860, this quote that this person has posted on there, right. First and foremost, let's, let's go to the actual article because it's always good to go to the actual thing. And what do you find? This is April 17, 1860, from Utah. This is from an unnamed person who's using a pseudonym who over the course of several months will write into the New York Times making all kinds of allegations about things happening in Utah territory. The New York Times newspaper, and this might come as a little bit of a shock to some folks. So I need you to brace yourselves. The New York Times newspaper in 1860 was a highly partisan newspaper. It was not just all the News that's fit to print. It was all of the news that makes the Republican Party look good and the Democratic Party looked terrible.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The New York Times.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The New York Times was. It was founded by two Whigs who then became Republicans. And all throughout this era, it is hyper partisan in its pro Republican Party stance. And so at the time in 1860, the presidential election that's going through the country has. The Republican Party has an explicitly anti Mormon platform that in fact, it's to just to exclude, demolish, whatever, eliminate the two twin relics of barbarism from the territory. Slavery and polygamy. And Republican representatives in Congress and in the Senate are continually lashing out against Mormons generally and polygamy in particular, all throughout this time period. So first of all, who is the source of this quote? Well, we don't know because the person is an anonymous source. Well, can I find this talk being given anywhere else? Well, let's see if I can track it down a little bit bit more. If you were to read this sentence that the, the anonymous, you know, that the Instagram Facebook poster left out. Why would they leave this out? It's weird. Why would they leave out the first part of this sentence? Because. Because they started in the middle of a paragraph. It's interesting. Why would someone start in the middle of a paragraph?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Conditions of anonymity.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it's interesting. Interesting. Some time ago, Heber Kimball was lecturing some missionaries who were preparing to start out on foreign missions in the Tabernacle and said to them, okay, so what else do we have? We actually don't have a date for when this talk was supposedly given. Well, we can go look at our existing accounts of talks given in the Tabernacle. And no one references this ever having been seen. I mean, first and foremost, that this, this almost sounds like something that would be a joke that someone might tell, right. In the 19th century that would pass as a joke. Right. But we don't know when it was said. We have no other record that it was said. And missionaries aren't going on their missions and marrying multiple women in England and then bringing them back home because they don't have the ability to marry polygamously on their missions. In fact, there are high profile people who get excommunicated for entering into unauthorized plural marriages in the 1850s and 1860s. So this very claim. Right. So the salacious claim is that Mormon missionaries are going out on their missions and they're just marrying every woman that they find and then coming back to Utah when really they need to just Convert them and bring them back so the apostles can decide which pretty ones they like. Yeah, that's going to get my dander up. Because not only is it salacious and false, there is legitimately no evidence from an anonymous source from a newspaper dedicated to the destruction of my religion that is willing to lie about everything that is. Oh yeah, yeah, what a great, what a great source, obviously. Oh, so this person just happens to know that. Yeah, they were there for that. Well, it wasn't happening in practice, so I guess it didn't get implemented the way Heber Kimball wanted it to be. I mean, let's, let's take some other examples of these corresponding correspondence from Utah and the things that they have to say about Utah at the same time period in articles that are very similar to find out, well, wait a minute. What kind of a source am I looking at? Always the first thing you should ask from any, any source that someone is presenting to you. Who created the source? When was it created? What was the purpose of its creation? What is the context of its creation? And are there any other cooperating sources that demonstrate that what is in that source is accurate? Well, you know what, let's, let's go to another article from the same newspaper from these same unnamed Utah correspondence. It is an established fact that the mass of the people of most Mormons are religious fanatics acknowledging only one spiritual and temporal head, holding it a religious duty and bound by every interest to obey the decrees of the Church. It becomes an important question to ascertain the purposes and pretensions of the Church. The Mormon religion has for its foundation a belief that Joseph Smith was sent by God, that a new revelation was made through him, that he was ordained as an apostle by the spirits of Peter, James and John. Actually it was by the resurrected Peter and James. And then John is still in anyway, you know, hey, at least they said it right and received a dispensation for the gathering of the Saints of all nation. Brigham Young is the success. The divine successor to Smith and like him receives from God revelations for the guidance of the Saints. The unexpected success of the Mormon religion may have given birth birth. The grander views. The disciples of the Mormon Church are now to be found in every land and every climb. Visions of empire and unlimited power over millions of subjects may now haunt the brain of Brigham Young. This almost unparalleled spread of Mormonism ought surely to move the American people to a just consideration of their evil while yet within the bounds of our own country. So obviously, you know, super, you know, I like How? When he reports, he reports. Middle of the road. No editorializing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it's straight. Very straightforward.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. This is an article in which he's lamenting the fact that the army is going to be withdrawn from Utah or. And not used militarily against the Latter Day Saints. That's the point of this article. Like you need to start using the military on them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, because of what.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, because they're Mormons.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, because what was said about what the missionaries do, bringing all the. Bringing home all the ugly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah, we got to stop them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We got to stop them.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Between the Mormon religion and our Republican government, there is an irrepressible conflict. In the one case, the powers in the hands of a single man, and the other, the hands of millions, a lasting settlement cannot be anticipated until the Mormons cease to be Mormons or cease to inhabit the United States. So this is a person who is calling either for Mormons to be exterminated or for them to be removed. But you know what? Let's take what his morality is on. On, you know, marriage loss. Yeah, it's clearly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is it possible that he heard that quote and that's why he's saying this as opposed to his bias?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The article I'm reading is before.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, that's right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's unfortunate. Again, you know, while they have that date on there to make it look legitimate, that's the date that it was published in the New York Times. But the. Even this horrifically biased writer himself says some time ago, doesn't give you a date. Why wouldn't he give you a date? Because if he gave you a date, then you'd be able to look it up and he doesn't because it didn't happen. And that's why you don't get a date when someone's like, oh, yeah, at some point it happened. Yeah, but you know it. Word for word. You know exactly what was said. You wrote it all down at the time. You just don't remember what day you wrote it down on. And you don't even say a week ago. You didn't say a couple weeks ago, some time ago.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, I mean, the reality. So let's give this person the absolute benefit of the doubt. The person. The New York Times.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, I'm giving him no benefits.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I know, but. But let's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He wants the extermination of Mormons.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Let's hear him out. Let's hear him out. No, so. But let's. Let's say. Let's say in this particular case, somebody who's been To Utah, comes to him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or this guy's living in Utah, so he's a. He's a person living in Utah or at least claiming to. And he reports back on the. On the Weekly and the Monthly to the New York Times claiming to have heard these things himself.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, go on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it makes it tough, doesn't it?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It does, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But without attaching his name to anything. So it's all anonymous. So I look, in today's day and age, no one ever makes salacious allegations through anonymous sources. Only happened back in the 19th century. So that's the nice part as we've evolved.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

1860, actually, I think the. Really, the only time that it may.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Have happened is just in April of 1860. That's right, the one time it happened. Okay, let me go on to quote some more of him. All legislation on the subject, if the Mormons are to remain in our midst, must necessarily look to overthrow the Mormon Church. And history gives us no example of a religious sect having been subdued by force. The only remedy is the severe one of removing these polygamists from the country and depriving them of their leaders and patiently teaching the people to become Republicans. And Freeman, that's called genocide and ethnic cleansing, just so everyone's aware. So what he is advocating is wholesale murder, forced reeducation and expulsion from the country. But you know what? Super great source on the morality of Heber C. Kimball, obviously, obviously the person who's advocating the expulsion and extermination of hundreds of thousands of people. Super moral. I'm just, I'm glad that we're taking our morality tips from someone like. Like that, who is such a coward, by the way, isn't even willing to put their name on their claims of extermination.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Could it have been Hebrews to Kibble?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So maybe he recently. Gibble is just running the deep game. Brigham Young's like, I can't figure out where these leaks are coming from. Anybody? Kibble's like, I don't know. But I know that I'm sad about ugly wine. I don't know. I don't know. Now, now there are multiple different anonymous people that are reporting from Utah at the time. So maybe there are different people. Likely they're the same person or. Or look, people were not above making up things. One, one of the greatest things I ever read when I was doing my dissertation was a newspaper article that got reported everywhere that the Mormons had rebelled against the United States during the Mexican War and that they perpetrated a great massacre against other People. And that was a huge. And got reported all over the United States. Then like, three weeks later, like, oh, I guess that didn't actually happen. I mean, and it was very small. The retraction, not printed everywhere. But the point is, when there's a hated minority group group, when there's a hated religious, ethnic, racial minority group, the majority does not need evidence of. Of what's being claimed because they already hate the group. I mean, here's, here's another example from another article from this fine fellow. Everyone who has ever thought about the subject regards Mormonism as a political, social and moral evil. And almost everyone looks forward to its speedy elimination. But, I mean, I'm sure he was like, you know, quoting exactly what Hebrew C. Kimball said because, like, you know, he's clearly being a reporter. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a reason why when someone is attempting to hurt your faith online, you have to just brush past it because. Do you think the person who posted that went to the original article to get this?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, of course not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Someone 15 people removed from that person put it up, thinking, what a great thing I can prove to these Mormons about. By the way, where in America could women file for their own divorce from their husbands in 1860?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Utah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah. So only in Utah in the 1860s are laws that actually protect women in marriages.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so with Utah and New York, though, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, in fact, yeah. Women are going to be voting in Utah for 50 years, half a century before they're voting in New York. Half a century. New York doesn't have women voting until they are forced to by the, the constitutional amendment. And so, yeah, I mean, it's very easy to say, oh, and, and you know, he has lots of articles like the only women in Utah don't want to be here. And, and they, they, they don't leave because they're afraid to leave. They don't have any rights except the right to vote and the right to own property and the right to get a divorce. But other than that, I mean, other than the rights that we don't grant any women anywhere else in the rest of the United States, they don't have any rights. I mean, look, obviously there's hyperbole that that's going on. This, this character is clearly an antagonist. And he. And it's probably the same person. It might be two different people. They ride under the name of Richard, which I find interesting.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, you know what? Let's hear him out again.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They either call themselves Richard or they sometimes call themselves. Themselves observer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's My nickname.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Richard the Observer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So Richard's Dr. Richard the Observer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Dr. Duke.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And he. And he just laments the Mormons, you know, they're not planning to leave Utah. They're not planning to leave Utah. We can never get rid of them. I don't think listeners. I know I've talked about it before. We talked about it with Abraham Lincoln. Our listeners do not fully understand the level of political hatred that was aimed towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints in the 1850s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. You know about it tangentially. You know about it as a kind of like, oh, I've heard that the government was against us, but I think it's. It's probably fair to quote what's going on in the Republican Party at this time. This is a part of a speech from one of the leaders of the Republican House in 1860. April 24, 1860. So a week after this newspaper article reported this about the Mormons. This is a speech by Stephen C. Foster. Not the same Stephen Foster who, you know. Oh, Susanna, don't you cry for me. I come from Alabama.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, that's. That's what I thought it was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not who it is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, it's a different one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, it's different.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

C. Foster. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yep. So this is the title of his speech. And this speech was given in Congress, and then the Republican Party thought his speech was so great, they published thousands of copies of it and distributed everywhere. This is the title. Republican land policy. Homes for the million. Well, that sounds. You know what? That sounds good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is about the Homestead Act. Give the public lands to the people and you settle the slavery question. Okay. Okay. I'm on. I'm on board. You obliterate the frontiers. Okay. Probably some Native Americans may not be very happy about that. You'll dispense with a standing army. Okay. Savings. Great. And extinguish Mormonism.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Interesting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The title of the speech is that if you pass the homestead bill, you will extinguish Mormonism. This is the Republican Party and it is their platform. And they are far from censuring him for what he has to say in here. They are publishing this everywhere.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So two things. I mean, I know that. I know that we're out of time. You had me read the discussion relating to the Idaho constitution. And we should. We should do an episode or 19 part episode on that. It was infuriating.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's pretty awful. And that was 40. Well, 30 years after this.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

35 years after this.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The second part is extinguish Mormonism. I think of the guy from the, the movie about missionaries, and I caught on fire.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like I caught on fire. Like I never thought I could call to serve.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Man called to serve and he's trying to extinguish it. That's, that's my first.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're trying to. External. They're not going to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But I mean, it's, it's, it's infuriating.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, here's some, here's some parts of his talk. We could read the whole thing, but it's very, very, very long. During the last 80 years, from small beginnings and with small means, we hazard little in the prediction that the whole of our territories may within 20 years become more organized. So it's going on and on about, hey, look, all of our territories are being organized. It's great, wonderful. There is an evil which the remoteness of and wilderness of our immense territories has fostered into fearful importance. I allude to polygamy, that foulest product of the 19th century, which seems to denote a decline in civilization. Mormonism, we are aware, sprung up in the older states, but polygamy was unheard of until the Saints removed beyond the reach of civilization in Missouri and Illinois. That fanatical and persecuted sect was suspected of some of these practices inconsistent with morality. But it was not until they felt themselves secure in the mountain fastness of Utah, a thousand miles beyond the frontiers of civilization, that they threw off all disguise. Apparently he was C. Kimball's disguise, since he's the one, right? And shocked the moral sense of the country in the world by the open practice of polygamy. They feel secure from molestation in that remote and not easily accessible region. We know what their history has been. They have publicly defied the government. They have trampled the laws of Congress. And notwithstanding the millions of money that has been spent in sending an army out to subdue them, still they revel in licentiousness. They insult your judges, they mock your army and murder your citizens. And then he goes on to say that there's an anti polygamy bill that's been introduced, but he's worried that it won't. It, it, it won't be supported. Um, I have no constitutional doubt or scruple. Cause you know, the Constitution forbids making laws against someone's religion. But I have no constitutional doubt or scruple about voting to suppress a practice which is a felony at common law and an insult to decency and morality. Because the problem is polygamy is legal in Utah territory and the federal government when this law is going to say that it's. That it's illegal everywhere. Even though states, at least ostensibly, have the right to make their own marriage laws. The fact that a practice so monstrous has sprung up in one of the organized territories of the Union proves the necessity of a general law to prohibit it not only in Utah, but in all of the territories. But who is to put the law enforce in Utah? There, the institution of polygamy has become permitted to grow up in such proportions as to defy the suppression by any ordinary legal process. The whole population, sustain it and practice it, or desire to practice it. So the one sitting on the sidelines, like, oh, I wish I could. Who is to put the law enforce? The Mormons. Have we no experience with the, the integrity of Mormon sheriffs and Mormon juries? Have they not screened or acquitted the most heinous murderers who murdered in the cause of polygamy? I don't even know what he's making as a reference there, but let me just say this. I mean, I, I don't want to be that guy, but how dare you. How many people served time for the massacre of men and children and the wounding of women at Hans Mill in Missouri? We know, literally, we have a list of all of the people that were in the militia, the Missouri State militia that massacred and murdered unarmed children there. How many of them served jail time? Oh, oh, zero of them. Interesting, because in the land of liberty, you know, the judge, the, the juries and the judge, well, there wasn't even a jury because there was no arrests that were even made. There's estimated there's 200 people in the mob that murdered Joseph and Hiram Smith and attempt to murder John Taylor and Willard Richards? How many people go to prison for a murder which literally hundreds of people witnessed? 0 people. How many people go to prison for murdering Edmund Durfee, shooting him in the back? Outside of, outside of Nauvoo, nobody. The claim that an American can't get justice in a Mormon court is as much, much a tail wagging a dog as I have ever heard. Latter Day Saints. One of the reasons why Joseph finally made the decision that they would have to leave the United States is that they could not get justice in the United States. You know, one of the reasons why no one was convicted in the trial of the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith because they, the judge, barred all Mormons from serving on the jury. Now, Hancock county is primarily made up of Mormons, which means accidentally, if you're just throwing names out of a hat, A majority of the people on that jury are going to be Mormons. And the judge barred Mormons from serving on the jury. But, you know, it's totally fair court. It's interesting. It's interesting. You know, people will say things sometimes like, you know, that what people claim that you're doing is what they're doing themselves, man. The claim that, yeah, Latter Day Saints, they're the ones who don't have a real judicial process. You mean like the ones that the Latter Day Saints got in New York and in Ohio and in Missouri and in Illinois and in Iowa, by the way, similarly, same thing. It is a claim that is, that is ridiculous to act as if that somehow everything was good, but now it's not. But I'll just leave you with this quote from Representative Foster. The only way to render the abolition of polygamy effectual is to encourage the settlement of the territories as rapidly as possible. If such a law were passed, a very few years would suffice to fill the territories with population and overwhelm the polygamists of Utah beneath the advancing tread of Christian civilization. I mean, it's hard for a Latter Day Saint today to hear, but this Republican Party is going to become the masters of the government. You know, only a few months later with this, the secession crisis that takes place after Lincoln is elected. And this Republican Party with these Congress people and these senators are the ones who are going to start passing anti Mormon bills that are expressly anti Mormon. Not just bills that sometimes affect Mormons, but, but laws that are designed to take away their religious rights. And it's not just that. I mean, someone listening might well, yeah, but polygamy is bad, so it should take that, that right away. Okay, what about laws that take away the rights for Mormons to serve on juries? What about laws that take away the rights for women to vote in Utah territory? I want to help the women in Utah so much. I'm going to give them their freedom by taking away their rights to, to vote. I mean, there's no way of getting around that. And so, yeah, my dander gets up when there's something that someone's saying that's antagonistic towards the church from 1860, especially from an unnamed source from a meeting that I don't know that ever happened from a. Without any corroborating evidence from a claim about a practice that wasn't actually going on, and from a political organ that is dedicated to the extermination and destruction of, of my church. So, yeah, no, I, I don't Super. Take it seriously. And hopefully no one else does either. And so I, I adjure you, I plead with you, don't take anything that someone puts in a pithy quote on X or a screenshot on Facebook at face value. If they were trying to be honest with you, they would have already provided the actual source and the actual context and the actual explanation. And they're not doing that. And why aren't they doing it? Well, nine times out of ten, they don't even know what those things are. In which case, why in the world would I listen to someone who doesn't even know where their quote came from? If the person talking to you about something doesn't know where they got their quote, then they should not be listened to at all. Second, for the very few times that they even do know where it comes from, their entire purpose isn't to give you the whole story or they would have given you the entire antagonistic article and you would have read, holy cow, this guy is an anti Mormon fanatic that wants Mormons exterminated. Instead, they cut out a supposed quote from a supposed leader, put their own supposed spin on it, and then handed it to you and said, hey, what do you think about this? As they did their 7:20 off a mogul yelling their extreme anti Mormonism. So my, my advice for everybody is if you find yourself being pained by the constant flood of online attacks, pull back a bit, do some more blocking to do some more, you know, careful realization that when people are not good faith actors, they will not act in good faith. And that is something that I think is important to understand. So thank you so much for joining us. Sorry that we went a little over time. Richard's over here hating himself.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's great, really great work.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He can't wait to read to you the political debates about the Idaho Constitution. It's his favorite thing. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.