S5E24 Was Hyrum Smith Called as an Apostle?

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast - Season 5, Episode 24: "Was Hyrum Smith Called as an Apostle?"

Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Guest: Dr. Richard Leduc
Release Date: June 5, 2025

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Introduction

In Season 5, Episode 24 of the Standard of Truth podcast, titled "Was Hyrum Smith Called as an Apostle?", Dr. Garrett Dirkmont engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Richard Leduc about the ecclesiastical role of Hyrum Smith within the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The episode delves deep into historical documents, doctrinal interpretations, and the nuances of church leadership structures during Joseph Smith's prophetic tenure.

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Opening Banter

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in light-hearted banter about their mutual disdain for the New York Knicks juxtaposed with their appreciation for the Yankees. This segment serves as an engaging icebreaker, setting a relaxed tone for the scholarly discussions to follow.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont [00:48]: "I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, the great Dr. Richard Leduc."

Dr. Richard Leduc [00:48]: "Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to be here after the Knicks have been eliminated from the playoffs because for some reason I hate the Knicks."

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Personal Testimony Story

Dr. Leduc shares a personal anecdote from a sacrament meeting in Fruita, Colorado, where he felt a strong spiritual prompting to share his testimony by reading a scripture from Doctrine and Covenants, Section 58, Verse 4. Despite his initial hesitation due to not being in his typical church attire and consulting with his son Parker, he ultimately reflects on the importance of acting on spiritual promptings.

Dr. Richard Leduc [06:03]: "I had this thought and I should get up and share it. And I just keep, you know, just suppressing and pushing it down..."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont [16:07]: "That's why Elder Bednar's counsel is so great. If you receive an impression that you should go visit one of your lonely, you know, widow neighbors... just do it."

This segment highlights the internal conflict many believers face when discerned spiritual prompts challenge their self-doubt or fear of inadequacy.

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Listener Emails and Main Question: Hyrum Smith as Apostle

The core of the episode revolves around a listener email questioning whether Hyrum Smith was officially called as an Apostle within the church hierarchy. Dr. Leduc provides an in-depth analysis of Doctrine and Covenants Section 124, which details revelations received by Joseph Smith in January 1841 in Nauvoo. This section discusses Hyrum Smith's elevation to a prophetic role alongside Joseph Smith, raising questions about his standing relative to the traditional Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Dr. Richard Leduc [45:29]: "So you think in Alabama then, or... with their new head coach, though, who knows?"

Dr. Richard Leduc [48:26]: "Now, we have that...he is a prophet, seer and revelator."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [55:04]: "They are sent off on missions by him. He gives more and more authority to them."

The hosts explore whether Hyrum Smith's roles and titles align with the canonical definitions of apostleship, considering his responsibilities and the timing of his ordination relative to the establishment of the Quorum of the Twelve.

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Discussion on Church Organization and Apostleship

Dr. Dirkmont and Dr. Leduc delve into the historical context of church leadership structures, examining how revelations like those in Section 124 influenced the distribution of authority within the church. They compare Hyrum Smith's designated roles to those of Oliver Cowdery, another significant early church leader, to assess similarities and differences in their ecclesiastical duties and titles.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [52:11]: "Now, that is also the same thing that apostles are ordained to."

Dr. Richard Leduc [55:09]: "But unlike all the prophets that follow Joseph, Joseph was given his authority directly by the previous apostleship."

The analysis underscores the complexity of early church governance and how it evolved under Joseph Smith's prophetic leadership, highlighting the unique positions held by key figures like Hyrum Smith.

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Secular Truth and Discernment

Shifting focus, the hosts address broader themes of discerning truth amidst contemporary challenges such as misinformation and conspiracy theories. Drawing parallels between historical instances of religious deception and modern-day information overload, they emphasize the importance of relying on established prophetic guidance and the Holy Spirit for spiritual discernment.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [27:21]: "It's a question of, you know, epistemology. How do we know what we know?"

Dr. Richard Leduc [38:27]: "If someone is trying to teach something on a podcast... that sounds kind of cool to you, but you can't find any record of it being taught recently in the church, that's a real place to push the pause button."

They stress the necessity of aligning new teachings and information with current prophetic counsel to safeguard against spiritual deception and maintain doctrinal integrity.

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Christie's Corner and Lighthearted Banter

Interspersed with the substantive discussions, the hosts engage in their trademark humorous exchanges, particularly during the "Christie's Corner" segment. This portion includes playful ribbing about each other's roles within church assignments and reflecting on personal quirks, adding a relatable and approachable dimension to the scholarly discourse.

Dr. Richard Leduc [18:24]: "We're gonna morph Christie's Corner into a getting ready for Sunday school lesson, into ways to... To bag on Richard."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [21:27]: "Well, we have two emails here, kind of similar topics. Do you want Joel next or Melanie next?"

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Conclusion

In concluding the episode, Dr. Dirkmont reflects on the ongoing quest to understand historical church figures and their roles, acknowledging the challenges in interpreting early church revelations and organizational structures. The discussion reinforces the significance of foundational church documents and prophetic guidance in navigating both historical inquiries and contemporary spiritual dilemmas.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [49:12]: "So that's where I think you never allow what you think about a gospel topic to be fully swayed by someone that's coming outside of the mainstream of the church."

The episode seamlessly intertwines historical analysis with personal narratives and practical spiritual advice, offering listeners a comprehensive exploration of Hyrum Smith's apostolic status and broader themes of faith and truth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Richard Leduc [06:03]: "I had this thought and I should get up and share it. And I just keep, you know, just suppressing and pushing it down..."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmont [16:07]: "That's why Elder Bednar's counsel is so great. If you receive an impression that you should go visit one of your lonely, you know, widow neighbors... just do it."

• Dr. Richard Leduc [48:26]: "Now, we have that...he is a prophet, seer and revelator."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [27:21]: "It's a question of, you know, epistemology. How do we know what we know?"

• Dr. Richard Leduc [38:27]: "If someone is trying to teach something on a podcast... that sounds kind of cool to you, but you can't find any record of it being taught recently in the church, that's a real place to push the pause button."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Standard of Truth offers an insightful examination of Hyrum Smith's potential apostleship, contextualizing it within the broader framework of early Latter-Day Saint church history and leadership. Through a blend of scholarly analysis, personal storytelling, and engaging dialogue, Dr. Dirkmont and Dr. Leduc provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of ecclesiastical roles and the enduring quest for spiritual truth.

For those seeking to deepen their knowledge of church history and strengthen their faith, this episode serves as a valuable resource, elucidating complex historical narratives with clarity and reverence.

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If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing to the Standard of Truth podcast and sharing it with fellow Latter-Day Saints seeking to enrich their understanding of church history and doctrine.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Listener]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, the great Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to be here after the Knicks have been eliminated from the playoffs because for some reason I hate the Knicks. I don't know what it is, but I do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

It's an interesting thing that we've talked about before that somehow Richard loves the Yankees and at the same time utterly despises the Knicks. It's a, it's, it's the most. I mean, Richard is a. He's a portrait of contradictions. Legitimately the same person he's sitting in Yankee Stadium with, you know, cheering on the last home run is literally the same person that he's yelling at at a Knicks game for being a terrible person.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think I have figured it out. I have explained it before where, you know, growing up in Idaho, you and I both had negative seven channels. Right. And so the options were limited. And so, you know, the teams that we liked are generally the team.

[Listener]

I feel like you were living a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Little more bougie on your side of the.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Over in Western Idaho.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Well, because we didn't have Fox.

[Listener]

Did you have Fox?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We would have it. It came in when I was, when I was a young kid. It was super, crackly super.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

We didn't have Fox till after I got married. We probably currently don't have Fox.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so Fox is where the Simpsons reruns would be at night, which is great. And then MASH would come on and that's how you knew it was time to go to bed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Oh, did you see that Nurse Houlahan passed away, in fact. Sad day of my youth.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Well, I, Yeah. So I think, I think I've actually have thought about this a little bit more. And part of the reason is while I was a Lakers fan, I also loved Michael Jordan, because who didn't? And Michael Jordan seemed to be in constant battles with the Knicks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So that might be part of it as well.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I remember when someone was trying to explain how John Starks was going to beat the Bulls in the Eastern Conference finals.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Didn't work out.

[Listener]

Spoiler alert.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

That did not happen well.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, Garrett, we have so many things to get to here today. And by the way, just so folks know, during missionary season, we always a bunch of missionaries are getting their calls, and parents that may be listeners to the show maybe have never even paid attention to how they can get access to their kids because their kids weren't on missions at the time. So if you can just email the show and send us their missionary email, that will give them access to the Google Drive. And for the majority of missionaries, that works great. And they're able to access that and listen to all of the podcasts, both the premium as well as the free stuff. And we have an email that in the substack that there's a link in the description that is for missionaries specifically. It's like, hey, here's a bunch of episodes for you to start on. We highly recommend Joseph Smith and the Restoration, which really talks a lot about the apostasy and a lot of the beliefs of our different Catholic and Protestant brothers and sisters and some of the things that they believe to provide some context so that when you're out saying the same words that mean completely different things that you'll have an idea of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Where they're coming from, it's almost like you need to. You need to hug up John Calvin to your chest and get to know him.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's right. And now for we. We do have that. We don't have very many stingers, but we do have, thanks to a listener, we have a stinger for Christie's Corner. So we'll play this here and lead into Christie's Corner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool, it's Christy's Corner.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So now in this. This week, it's Section 58 of the Doctrine Covenants is one of the things. And so now most of you come here for Christie's Corner and for the little bit of gospel chum that Garrett throws like corn into a lake.

[Listener]

I'm just trying to catch more fish. I've got a lot of alligator bait.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But this week, though, um, I'm going to ruin Christie's Corner by sharing a personal experience which will provide nothing for anyone as it relates to this. Because, again, the purpose of Christie's Corner is to make everyone sound smart in gospel doctrine class or in Elders Quorum Relief Society. That's the. That's the reason anyone listens to anything anyway. But this Will provide no value for you there. But so this. This week I was for fast and testimony meeting. I was in Fruta Colorado as. As people are want to do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

If I had a nickel for the number of times I just randomly found myself in fruit. I mean I. I would be negative nickels. I think that I feel like I've driven through fruit while driving through Grand.

[Listener]

Junction all on the way to or.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

From Denver from the Salt Lake area.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so I was there obviously for Mike the Headless Chicken festival again as one is want to do their 25th. Is the 25th anniversary of that. Apparently. It's a great story. No time here in the podcast to get to it, but apparently a chicken's head was cut off. It lived for 18 months and it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Went around for 18 months.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's an incredible. Well, there's. Yeah, it's an incredible story. Actually.

[Listener]

No part of what you just said is true.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm going to put a link up. I'm going to put a link up on the description to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I have no doubt that some liar.

[Listener]

Is saying that the chicken still alive. Are you saying I am challenging the integrity of all fruit? If you're telling me a chicken is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Still alive 18 months later, it's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a grand story, Garrett. And. And I do not have the time here because I'm about to get into Christie's Corner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

So the chicken's breathing then through its neck hole.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Now the way that the. Apparently the way that the head was cut off is that there was enough of a brain stem that allowed for it to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Its head wasn't cut off.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Its head was very much cut off. I have a. I have a picture of the head of the chicken. The chicken came to Salt Lake City and toured.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I feel like it came here and toured.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They went. They went on across the country showing the chicken.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I feel unless I can thrust my.

[Listener]

Hand into the side of this chicken, I will not believe.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was not. I was not prepared to defend. Defend Mike. Mike's the name of the chicken. But so this happened in like in 44, 45, something like that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Anyway, so it was a World War II propaganda. Oh, it totally makes sense. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Helped us to beat the. The Japanese and the. And the Germans. Yeah.

[Listener]

Nothing made me give more corrugated steel to the government than Mike the Headless Chicken.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Anyway, one of my favorite bluegrass bands was playing the festival because it was the 25th year, even though the chicken died a very long time ago. They started the festival 25 years ago. Anyway, so we're there. We attend the Sacrament meeting and a sister gets up to share her testimony. And it was a beautiful testimony and it was a tragic series of events that had occurred in her life and she endured them with faith and was an incredible example of the kind of person that you would want a person to be going through those terrible trials. And I had this thought come to my mind that I should get up, I should share my testimony and I should read or share section 58, verse 4. I should get up and read that. And it's for after much tribulation come the blessings wherefore the day cometh that you shall be crowned with much glory. The hour is not yet but is nigh at hand. And so I had that thought and I suppressed it and I pushed it down. Now part of the reason that I did is because I packed church clothes because when you're in Fruita you always have to be ready and perhaps someone would ask me to give a blessing and I wanted to make sure that I had my suit.

[Listener]

That's hilarious. Packed like six or seven suits just in case.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, you never know.

[Listener]

I could only imagine that when you're packing an entire suitcases, just suits for random blessings that someone might ask for. Why you can't wear the same suit for two blessings in a row, nobody knows, but just it's suit after suit after suit. Sorry, I've seen him back folks. I've been on tour with him. Unlike Mike the headless Chicken that didn't actually exist. These suits of his do just.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I love the idea of I'm getting on a cruise ship and I have one suitcase that's just exclusively.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Well it's like the story that you know again Elder Rickdorf told president at.

[Listener]

The time of the guy who went on the cruise ship with the beans. Right. One of the, one of his whole suitcase was just beads and when you pack yours, it suits and yoohoo and, and virgin olive oil, extra virgin olive oil. That's. It's just an entire suitcase.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well that's the thing is as I bring, I bring non blessed olive oil because I have to bless it in front of them so they believe it's blessed. Like a person like yourself that doesn't simply believe stories that are being told to them that are obviously true. Anyway, so I left my church clothes that I packed on my bed and so I had like, you know, pants and like you know, a colored multi patterned shirt, you know.

[Listener]

Did it say rock on Mike, the Headless Chicken festival. Did it say something like that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it was, you know, but it was Something that was. I wore a cowboy hat to the bluegrass concert the night before. You know, it was. It was more in line with that kind of look. People look at. Look at that, and they don't know. My wife's like, this guy's. He's faking. But, you know, I feel like I can pull. I feel like I can use enough words growing up in rural part Idaho that you think somehow is highfalutin compared to Shelly, which is hilarious.

[Listener]

I feel like all you have to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Do is refer to cattle as beef. And.

[Listener]

And you're gonna.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

That'll get you another 10 minutes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So anyway, I suppress the feeling because I'm not really dressed in my, you know, in my typical blessing suits. And. And so I. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not gonna do that. And I talked to my son, Parker, who's with me, and I'm like, I think I should get up. He's like, don't. Don't get up. Don't. Don't embarrass us. I mean, I love that you talk.

[Listener]

To a teenage boy in a ward that wasn't his. And you said, hey, I think I'm going to get up. And you thought his answer would be anything other than, dad, please don't.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, maybe I told. Maybe I said that to him so he would tell me what I wanted to hear, which was to not go up, actually.

[Listener]

Okay. I was going to say.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I mean, I would assume that Parker will respond, but, dad, you don't have.

[Listener]

One of your blessing suits.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so anyway, what started out as kind of an impression began to be a little bit more of a kind of a nagging feeling that I should get up and I'm. And, look, man, I try. I try to be a good person, but I'm obviously not. And, you know, we're all. Well, we're all efforting our way through, trying to do our best. But one thing that I. That's never really been mistaken about me is that I'm receiving spiritual promptings and I'm acting on revelation. That's. That. That will not be said at my funeral. Right. At least if these shadows remain unaltered by the future, the child will die. So, you know, so it becomes more and more and more of this feeling that I should get up and share it. And I just keep, you know, just suppressing and pushing it down, pushing it down, pushing it down. And then there's, like, about five minutes left, and I'm like, okay, well, time's up. You know, time is Far spent.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

We're done here.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't have to. I don't have to do it. And. And then a lady gets up and she comes up and she said, you know, I. I don't know. I don't know where this thought came from, but I just had this thought that I should come up and just read this scripture. And she reads doctrine covenants, section 58, verse 4. And I felt so chastised. I was like, dog gone. It much like Jonah.

[Listener]

Well, I mean, he at least made it to Nineveh.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

You're still on the ship.

[Listener]

You're in the belly of the whale.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, well, so then when she read that scripture, I immediately felt scolded. I immediately felt like, doggone it, I had this thought and I should have done like Elder Bednar says, and if it's good, just do it and quit trying to figure out whether it's coming from God or coming from you. And then the verse from Doctrine and Covenants, Section 3, Verse 1. The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated. Neither can they come to naught. Anyway, it was a powerful spiritual witness to me of a living heavenly father that loves somebody in that congregation and wanted that to be read or state it for whatever reason. And he gave me an opportunity to do it, and I didn't. And fortunately for whoever was in that congregation, a good sister followed the prompting and shared it. So, anyway, I. It's a bit of a. Of a humbling, but a good experience overall.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I think everybody listening has had that experience. Everyone who's ever felt the spirit has felt an impression that they should do something and then had an argument with themselves.

[Listener]

No, no, I'm not going to do that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And, you know, that's why Elder Bednar's counsel is so great. I mean, like, if you receive an impression that you should go visit one of your lonely, you know, widow neighbors. Well, I mean, I'm guessing it's not coming from Satan. I mean, my guess is that it's not like this is my deep plan. What I'm going to get him to do first is to start serving the people around him. And then when I let all the service that he's doing to treat other people with love go to his head, then, I mean, I don't know that he's functioning on that wavelength. And so it kind of calls to mind, you know, what. What President Woodruff said about the fact that there are only two great powers in the world, the power of God and the power of Satan. And so, you know, if what you feel prompted to do is good, then just do it. And, well, what if it's not really coming from God? What if it's just me saying it? Well, you know what? Honestly, that's almost even better because that.

[Listener]

Means that you are, to the point where you are having natural impressions that you should go do something good, even if you're not being directly told.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I mean, honestly, it's.

[Listener]

It.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I don't know that anyone's ever going to be like, I should never have gone and told my friend. I. I'm sorry for what I said. That was ridiculous.

[Listener]

I mean, there's no way I was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Prompted to forgive them. And so, yeah, I think that it's a good reminder. Like I said, everybody, everybody has had the experience where they have felt like they should do something and they kind of didn't as well as those times where we didn't. And I love you comparing it to doctrine covenant, section 3, the works of God, the purposes of God, they aren't going to be frustrated. It's just us. It's just the weak men who are caught up in ourselves that we end up. We end up not following it. So I could give many such examples myself, but I'm not going to, because I'm just going to let it roast.

[Listener]

In for the rest of the audience. For Richard.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

That's what Christie's Corner is all about.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's. That's.

[Listener]

That's the purpose of Christie's Corner. We're gonna morph Christie's Corner into a getting ready for Sunday school lesson, into ways to. To bag on Richard. It'll. It'll just be every week, you know, hey, Richard, what'd you do wrong this week? You know, and then one of the.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Story, also one of the things actually, that, that so we joked around. I think it was. I think it was. I don't care if it was a premium or a Thursday episode about the idea of, you know, of me as the worst bishop or counselor that's ever existed. I think that there was some fun. The majority of the fun, though, that we had was after the episode, how we continued to riff and make fun of it because it's easier in this case to make fun of me for being an incompetent and terrible person than like to pick out somebody else. Right? So we've all experienced in our lives, people, look, everybody that serves in the church is giving it for free, and they're. And the majority of them are giving their best. And my bishop's father, when he was a stake President gave some really good advice to his son that, you know, he was getting really upset with somebody that was serving as the Scout Master or something along those lines. I can't remember what it was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Tracks. You're gonna. You're gonna be upset at the Scout Master.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was. It was. It was either the Sunday school something or other.

[Listener]

Scout Master Master.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And I was terrible. I'm sure. I'm sure there are all kinds of bishops upset about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so, you know, and. And so the.

[Listener]

The.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This. His. His dad is like, oh, so now how much are you paying him? And he's like, what are you talking about? We're not paying him. He said, oh, well, based on the way that you were talking about it, it seemed like he was making $100,000 a year or something along those lines. And the lesson was, it's like, look, you don't know what's going on in people's lives, and people are doing their best and whatever. And so that's how I try to live my life. But at the same time, there are people that I know if we give an assignment to so. And so the likelihood of that assignment getting done now, not currently in past Ward's past experience, obviously.

[Listener]

Keep digging that hole.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. And so the. The. As we were talking about this, Garrett had quite a bit of fun at my experience.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I just love the idea that Richard.

[Listener]

Is in a bishopric and that his bishop has. Has given him so many assignments that he's utterly failed at that. Now he's just inventing fake assignments for him, just. And tried to convince him that they're the most important thing. I love the idea that, you know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Well, we've got, you know, 60 youth.

[Listener]

Interviews that we need to conduct, and, you know, Bishop Brady's like, you know What? I'll take 40 of those.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And, you know, his other counselor, why don't you take.

[Listener]

Why don't you take 20 of those?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And Richard's kind of like, you know.

[Listener]

Hopping back and forth on one foot in the background.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

How many.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

How many should I take? How many should I have?

[Listener]

Oh, we've got a very special job for you, Richard. It's a job that no one else could do. We need you. We need you to go to Sam's Club and buy some candy for the bishop's bowl. And it's. It's a very important job, and we need you to do it. And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And I could just see him, you.

[Listener]

Know, leaning into that, like, because. Because, you know, Richard protests.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

He's like, well, you know, the other counselor is Already at Sam's club right now.

[Listener]

Why don't you just have him pick up some candy like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

No, no, no.

[Listener]

Richard, I need you to physically leave the church house and go buy this candy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wood. He's, he's, he's 73. He gets a lot of black licorice.

[Listener]

Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of big hunks and lemon drops. There's lemon drops everywhere. Little, little primary kids come in and he's handing them. It is a piece of black salt licorice.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is a funny, it is a funny idea, actually. But anyway. Well, so Garrett on, on with the show, the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. This, this subject is. My friends, hated your fireside. That's a, that's a boy.

[Listener]

That's a, that's a universal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I mean, if I had a. If again, if I had a nickel.

[Listener]

For the number of times someone lied to me about a chicken or that they hated the fireside, there would be a lot of nickels.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so one of the reasons that I love this email to start off with is so Garrett. Now if I can just speak very kindly of my, of my dear friend of 24 years. Garrett is a world renowned historian and is an expert on church history and the prophet Joseph Smith and religious history in the 19th century. And Garrett is able to deliver. I like the contrast of me saying all these nice things about you after all the terrible things that were just said.

[Listener]

Well, I'm just waiting for the punchline where you say this and they're like, psych.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, no. So, so I mean, I, I love Garrett and Garrett. One of the best things about Garrett is that he's able to deliver pretty dense context, historical context, doctrinal meaning in a way that is with humor and allows for people to, to receive it in a way that is different for, for some folks that maybe that's less traditional but really has a major impact. And so because of that ability that Garrett has, he is asked to do many a fireside. He is, he does them virtually. He goes and visits people. I have been with him sometimes as he drives hours and hours and hours because he doesn't know how to say no. And he needs to learn how to say no because trying. Yeah, he's going to die a short.

[Listener]

Early, brief, violent death.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So anyway, so Garrett, in fact just today he finished doing a fireside. We're recording kind of later in the day because, because he had a fireside today. And I just love the idea of all these stakes, multi ward, multi stake firesides that you do. And then I was asked to give a spiritual thought at a Zone conference this week and I thought that was the funniest thing. And I told a couple friends of mine about it and they thought that was the funniest thing that they'd ever heard. The missionaries in my ward have to give a spiritual thought and they asked me to give that spiritual thought and I just thought that the contrast of those two things was the funniest thing I'd ever heard. And my friends also thought it was funny as they mocked me to no end. Anyway, so the response that was the title, but at the beginning, Just kidding that they didn't. They didn't hate. I mean, they might have, but she said that they're just kidding. But maybe I should have prepared them for the litany of banter and digressions that accompany an experience with Dirk Mott and Leduc and the fact that it is best digested at 1.5 speed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

It's best.

[Listener]

I just did. Not at all like yes it is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

It's like eating Limburger cheese. It's best not having it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But yes, it's like a cyanide pill. However, I have still shared your episodes with my nephew in Ghana serving a serving a real mission two year stinky, sweaty camping trip of the worst gastrointestinal variety that leduc would never survive, which is absolutely accurate. And my niece in Arizona, 1.5 year little vacay with luxuries and complimentary doordash and air conditioning.

[Listener]

Wow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Very funny.

[Listener]

As someone who has a son in Arizona. Wow, that's funny.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Kind of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She does have a question though. She said, in our world today, with AI bad actors and people who think they know things I. E. Podcasters and pundits making wild claims and conspiracy theories about a variety of subjects, I feel powerless to know the real truth behind every narrative. I'll listen to a podcast or watch a documentary about something with quote, evidence and quote experts and still be unsure. What I'm saying is I'd love an episode about how and how to avoid not being taken in by untruths and conspiracies that are not legitimate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I mean, we. I think we've done this several times. First of all, it's a great question, because the real question is it's actually similar to what I gave my youth Fireside on today. How how do you know what's accurate and what's true? I mean, we just did that, you know, not too long ago that the chat GPT episode Where we demonstrated that, you know, a. This AI service very definitively and with sources made declarations that were false, that were never true, that weren't even remotely accurate. But the only way that you could find out that they weren't remotely accurate was by knowing enough to know what questions to ask to get the AI to go, oh, yeah, you're right. I guess they did really see the plates, though. Witnesses. So really, it's a question of, you know, epistemology. How do we know what we know? And it's the great question of philosophers and religion all around. But when it comes to the way that we can know things about God, obviously the only way we can know them is through the Holy Spirit. And part of the reason why it becomes confusing is sometimes we mistake charisma for truth. We mistake someone's apparent purity of motives for them having keys to give the revelations that they're delivering. And I feel like this is something that. This has always troubled the church. You know, the people who create the breakaway religions, the people who were able to convince people to follow them as they broke away from our church. Surprisingly, they were all very charismatic individuals. They were all people who made a powerful argument. They were always the loudest voice in the room. But that didn't make them right. It just made them loud. And like all people that are preaching false doctrine, they tell you what it is you want to hear rather than what it is you need to hear. And that is. It's a real issue because we. We find ourselves at times being deceived primarily on. On the fact that it's something that we want to believe. I want to believe X. And this person is telling me, look, it happens a lot with politics. I mean, anyone who spends any time with politics at all will gravitate towards a news organization that just so happens to only report favorably upon whatever politics they believe in. And that's left or right, it doesn't matter. That's what we do naturally as humans. And by the way, that wasn't invented in the 21st century. There's a reason why the newspaper in Quincy, Illinois was named the Quincy Whig, and the Chicago Democrat was called the Chicago Democrat. It wasn't because they were staying out.

[Listener]

Of the political fray and just reporting the news honestly. The difference was they were telling people.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Up front, yeah, we're gonna.

[Listener]

We're gonna tell you nothing but garbage about the Democrats. That's what we do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

So knowing that so many things are politicized should already make people have a little bit of a pause, right? A little Bit of a pause to say, if this is an issue that people feel strongly about, then that's something that can cause people to be deceived. For a Latter Day Saint, it's easy to know what it is that you need to know, as opposed to all of the other things that you could know. There are many things in the world that you can know. Some of them may not really be worth a lot of knowing. Some of them might actually be not worth knowing. But the things that are actually worth knowing, the things of God, those things, we get them through the channels that come from the prophet. Now, sometimes people play around with this. There are people who have podcasts, hopefully not ours, who will try to make a current argument based upon an out of context statement that was made by a prophet or apostle 150 years ago. And then when you don't agree with their current political or social argument, they will say, oh yeah, you're not following the prophets, because that's what Jedediah Grant said in 1853. And so clearly you're not following the prophets when you know, you don't have to be a historian to know what it is that God expects you to do. God expects you to follow his current prophets. That's what he expects. He doesn't expect you to know everything there is about history. And that's where you put your faith in the people that God has called to run the Lord Jesus Church. And that does require you to take some things on faith. But we are talking about religion. So the fact of the matter is you're going to have to take things on faith. There's a part in Romans chapter 10 where Paul is trying to explain why it is that so many of the Jews, unlike himself, are rejecting Jesus as the Messiah when all of their literature is pointing to Jesus being the Messiah and they are rejecting him. How could the very people who have been offering sacrifices to Jehovah for thousands of years not recognize that same Jehovah when Jehovah came and he said they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, they being ignorant of God's righteousness, they go about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Now obviously that's a particular statement that he's making, but there's, it's a very, a pretty good thing that you could actually extrapolate out to us all. All of us sometimes feel really strongly about things, even to the point where we think we know a lot about those things. When in, in point of fact, we haven't spent a ton of time at all when it comes to our spiritual faith. I would say if someone is trying to teach something on a podcast, in an interview, on an Insta post, on Facebook, on YouTube, and it sounds kind of cool to you, but you can't find any record of it being taught recently in the church, that's a real place to push the pause button. Because if it is something that God believes that people need to know, then God will have his prophets teach what it is he thinks that these people need to know. It will come from the pathways that God has already set up for people to understand. And so, yeah, be hesitant. That doesn't mean that there's not great things out there. But I think all of us have watched people in our lives who have eventually put something ahead of the church and ahead of the prophet of God when those two things conflicted. They were all in on things right up until. Right up until the prophet taught something that disagrees with my political views. They were all in right up until the prophet taught something that disagrees with their social views or their personal family views or what it is that's a culture and where they happen to be living. And that's what you have to guard against. Because becoming a disciple means following what the Lord Jesus has to say and not trying to find special secret knowledge that makes you different and smart and better than someone else, but trying to follow what it is that the prophet has said. You can do a self check. I'm not accusing our emailer of this of all, but a lot of people really want to know things like where's the lost 116 pages? When is Jesus coming again? What can I do to prepare? They want to know those things and I understand why I want to know those things. Things are those same people following the counsel of President Nelson when he tells us exactly how to prepare for the second Coming? Are they going to the temple more? Are they seeking to heal problems in their family? Are they seeking to be peacemakers? Are they seeking to purify their lives and have an eye more single to the glory of God? If they aren't doing those things, then how many cans of dehydrated beans you have on your shelf is not the deciding factor of when Jesus comes. And so I. That's what I would say. I would say, yes, there's fun topics to talk about. We clearly talk about esoteric topics on this podcast, but none of them should obscure the gospel of Jesus Christ in its simplicity. Sure, I would like to know more about, you know, how deacons were first.

[Listener]

Called in the church because we don't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Have a record of them until October of 1831. It's interesting to me, not to anyone else, but it also has no bearing on the gospel of Jesus Christ. It literally is trivial. It's something that you would have a trivia answer for. And so that's where I think you never allow what you think about a gospel topic to be fully swayed by someone that's coming outside of the mainstream of the church. And check yourself on it. And it is not a defense like, oh no, you don't understand. I've met him or her and they're just like the best person in the world. Okay, that's great. And now measure what it is they're saying against what the prophets are saying. And if they're saying something that the prophets aren't saying or haven't said or aren't stressing, you then have to ask yourself, well, if this was as important as this person says it is, then why aren't the prophets saying it? Because that's the job of a prophet, is to tell you what you need to know. Not, hey, if you happen to have been in the Santiago, Chile mission in 1974 when an apostle visited and said this, then you'd have some secret knowledge that's better than everyone else. I mean, if that knowledge wasn't essential for your salvation and your exaltation, it would not be buried somewhere that you don't have access to it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

That's way too long of an answer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, that was, that was a great answer. It gave me some time to look up some additional facts on. Speaking of false things that are stated, Mike, the headless chicken. Deseret. The Deseret News does not appear to have an article about it, but there was, there was a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

An advertisement in the Tribune.

[Listener]

Is that what you're trying to tell me?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, and it immediately made me question it. Now it's just. It was just an ad that was purchased. Headless Rooster, 264 South State $0.25 admissions, which is not bad at the time. September 24, 1945, by the way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Couldn't you just keep the gag going by constantly chopping off a new rooster's head?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's pretty cynical. But 25 cents in in 1945 is about 4:34 today. And at its height, they claim to have as many as 600 visitors a day coming to see the chicken.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Every one of those people better be going to the temple more Times they're going to see a chicken, every one of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, anyway, since it was posted in the Sully Tribune, I immediately now no longer believe it. There was a BBC article about it that I will post there as my integrity has been questioned now. So the next. The next one that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I don't think you're a liar. I just think you've been deceived by the lie.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So much better.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

You're what she's been taught she's talking about.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what I was. Yeah, look at that. Now. Do you want. We have two emails here, kind of similar topics. Do you want Joel next or Melanie next?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Let's do Melanie.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. Melanie's. Hello, Dr. Dirkmot. Well, that's why you wanted it. Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Well, I need to be. I need my ego. It must be fed.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My name is Melanie. I have been listening to your podcast for a while. A while. In my patriarchal blessing, I'm instructed to read the history of my progenitors of whom you speak. I know that I am not special for two reasons. We could not ride on the. On the coattails of our progenitors. And given their prolific progeny, I am one of many. Hiram Smith is my great, great, great grandfather through Joseph F. Smith. Remember the F? That's me stating that I can't say Joseph F. Smith without saying that at least in my head. Every time. I don't know. That's. That might just be. Is that. Do you do that or no, I always.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I always sing that. Remember the F. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And John Taylor, who came third, we know is my great, great grandfather through Mary Taylor Schwartz. I don't know. Schwartz is. That sounds like a great Jewish name. I hope that she was President Joseph F. Smith's fifth wife. I have been searching this. This question isn't about polygamy. I don't believe we'll find out. We'll find out soon. I've been searching for ways I could find accurate sources that will connect me to my progenitors and was led to your podcast via divine means. I am sure I feel a special bond with them. And when I listen to your podcast, I hear you speak of them or when you speak of them, I feel them in light of who they really were and are. We have the piano of John Taylor and my aunt has currently has letters from President Joseph F. Smith to my great great grandmother, Mary Taylor Schwartz. I feel the goodness, nobility and purity of these men and your deference towards them. When listening to your podcast, it is evidence that you have the unique charge of presenting them in the. In the correct light, which you do so adeptly and honorably. Thank you for living in such a way and putting. And putting for the dogged. Putting forth, I think, is putting forth the dogged effort such that you can capture in as accurate light as possible not only their history, but the essence of their spirit. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your light and gifts. Not only blessing all who will hear, but their posterity as well. And then, then, Joel, email kind of hits on this a little bit as well. And then I think gets to the question that you wanted to speak to. While I am not giving labor nor part of the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission, I am Canadian and served in the Idaho Boise Mission. Look, that's all you need to do. You're. You're playing the hits, my friend. Canadians have a special place in my heart given I. I plan to go back and lay claim to the acre of land now worth quite a bit in outside of Montreal. And Garrett and I both speaking from Idaho. That's, that's well done. So I feel that should give me some cachet with the two doctor hosts. It absolutely does. If this question gets answered on the podcast, I really hope it doesn't get mixed in with the closeted sports betting promotion or the droning on about college football as I try to skip that part for my own. Sandy, who do you have as the. As the potential champion? You think Ohio State will repeat this year? They lost a lot of seniors last year. I don't know. Garrett, what are your thoughts?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Yeah, I'm not. I, I hate to just walk all over what he asked us not to do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, I'd hate to do that as well. So you think in Alabama then, or.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I mean, I feel like you're. You're going to have to. You're going to have to stay with the favorite, with which, you know, I think it's Ohio State until Alabama proves that they've rided the ship.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. With their new head coach, though, who knows? I don't have the line. So. On with the. On with the email. My son asked me if Hyrum Smith was an apostle, and I thought he was. So I googled it and it said he was an apostle but not a member of the quorum of the 12. Can you explain the organization of the apostles at the time? I am scared to ask. ChatGPT because it will probably tell me. Of course, I see the confusion followed by something more confusing than Dr. Leduc's reading, which is. That's very funny. I would, I would Certainly wouldn't ask Grok. Likely swear at you as it gives you some answers. In all seriousness, I really appreciate the podcast. Always put it on long car rides when my wife is talking. When my wife is talking too much and I need her to take a nap. That is very funny. Yeah, that's really well done. Well done, Joel. Now it could be any Joel. We don't know what his last name is, even though it's here. And I could read really is my favorite podcast and I love the insight into church history and the answers from a real historian. My testimony is always strengthened as I hear you both bear testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Thank you. P.S. my, my son is going on a mission in seven or eight years and it should. It should take about that long to get through the premium content. So we should probably get signed up now. Send the link to the Google Drive.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I love it.

[Listener]

Well, you, you send us a missionary email, we'll send you the link.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I don't know how they can, you.

[Listener]

Know, how far out they can pre book their missionary email.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, you know. Yeah, yeah. Because. Because the reality is is his last name is fairly unique and so his son's name.last [e-mail] he just needs to get the domain for missionary.org and set it up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Yeah. See if the church is willing to sell that domain. So these are both great questions and over, you know, people that I very much love. I mean, Hyrum Smith is one of the people that's closest to Joseph in his life. And I think we all know that as it relates to this. Now, I don't want to speak definitively on this because I am not in a position to definitively speak on it. I am not a prophet or an apostle. And so because of that, I don't actually know how Joseph and Hyrum saw their positions, how they saw Hyrum's position in the church. The comment about the Quorum of the twelve Apostles is certainly the case that it is very different than it is today and in 1841. That's doctrine covenant section 124 that we will get to on search these commandments on the premium side sometime around when my daughter Annika returns home from her mission. She's 11.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Her senior mission.

[Listener]

Yeah. No, her seat. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Oh, yeah.

[Listener]

No, she, she, she. It'll be the second mission she serves with her husband after they've retired and then we'll get to section 124 and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I think we'll take more time on things as we get closer just because I'm trying to delay 132 to the.

[Listener]

Point that, you know, we'll just drag it out. We'll spend two years on 126, just every week just reading the same verses.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

But it's in section 124 that Hyrum's actually given a very unique position. And we often do talk about this because Hyrum is called to be a patriarch to fill the role of his father, who is the Church patriarch and had died. But there's much more to it than that. And if you go to 124, you got to drop. It's a huge revelation. It's this revelation Joseph receives in January in 1844. 41 in Nauvoo. We've talked about it before when we were hating on Almond Babbitt. And not far away from the hatred on Almond Babbitt, you get to this discussion about. Of the Lord about Hiram Smith. And he's called to this special position. Let my servant William, and this is William Law, be appointed, ordained. This is verse 91. I guess I should probably tell you what verse it is. Appointed, ordained, and anointed as counselor to my servant Joseph in the room of my servant Hyrum. So Hyrum had been a counselor in the First Presidency, and William Law is going to take the position. Why? That my servant Hyrum may take the office of priesthood and patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his Father by blessing and also by right. And from henceforth, he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people. So here he is called to be the Church patriarch. Now, again, this is in the vein of when there was a Church patriarch that was over all of the. The presiding patriarch was over all of the other patriarchs. And this was a position that we had used to have filled in the Church up until, you know, the late 90s. We. And we. The position's still there. There's never been a statement that it's going to be done away with, but it's remained unfilled. And it had been descendants of Joseph Smith Sr. That had filled that patriarchal role. But verse 95. Sorry, verse 94 says, and from this time forth, I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, a seer and a revelator unto my Church, as well as my servant Joseph. Okay, well, I don't know if Hyrum Smith's an apostle, but I can tell you for sure he's a prophet, seer and revelator. Because The Lord in doctrine covenant section.

[Listener]

94 said Hiram Smith is a prophet, seer and revelator.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Now, that is also the same thing that apostles are ordained to. So that kind of makes you think, okay, that's similar. Verse 95, that he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph, and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive and be crowned with the same blessings, glory, honor, priesthood and gifts of the priesthood that were once upon him. That was my servant, Oliver Cowdery. So he's given this. That he is going to essentially take the position that Oliver Cowdery had. Well, what was the position that Oliver Cowdery had? Well, he was the second elder of the church. He was the second highest in authority in the church and had this special position. And now Hyrum is apparently Oliver Cowdery is apostatized by this time. And so Hyrum is sometimes called like an assistant prophet or a co prophet. Joseph hiring elevates Hyrum to be a prophet in the church in a way that is, frankly, it's hard to compare it to anything else that we have. So if he's called to the same calling and given the same authority that Oliver Cowdery was given, well, what was Oliver Cowdery ordained to be by Peter, James and John? They were given the apostolic priesthood. They were ordained to be apostles by Peter, James and John. I don't know if that's what Doctrine and Covenant Section124 means, but it certainly seems to be placing Hyrum in this position of authority and power we don't have a separate record of. And here's where Oliver Cowdery was ordained to be an apostle even though he was outside of the quorum of the 12, because 124 is making him a co prophet, seer and revelator of the Church. And so in our terms, that's something like, well, of course he was ordained an apostle, and that's what if he's taking the same power as Oliver Cowdery, then that's what Oliver Cowdery was ordained to be. But it is a little bit murky in that regard. He's certainly not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, but he is a co prophet in the church. You know, frankly, Joseph Smith was never a member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

[Listener]

He calls the Quorum of the Twelve. The Quorum of the Twelve is given authority by him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

They are sent off on missions by him. He gives more and more authority to them. But unlike all the prophets that follow Joseph, Joseph was given his authority directly by the previous apostleship. And then once the new apostleship is established, that new apostleship will then call from its number apostles to be prophets. So I don't think there's a definitive way to answer that. And really, we would just get hung up on a lot of nomenclature like, well, does being the co prophet or assistant prophet or associate prophet of the Church, does that make him an apostle by default? And part of the reason why it's a hard line to draw is that January of 1841 is received before Joseph gives more of the keys of the kingdom to the Quorum of the twelve apostles. So the apostles are gaining in authority, they're gaining in strength. They're certainly more important in Nauvoo in early Nauvoo than they were in Missouri and in Kirtland. I mean, again, I'm not saying they weren't important. What I'm saying is they were a high office that Joseph gave more and more and more authority to line upon line and precept upon precept, but he had not yet conferred all the keys of the kingdom to them, not in 1841. And so the question of was Oliver Cowdery made a member of the quorum of the 12, or why wasn't he at the time that he was elevated, is kind of taking our current organization of the church and trying to project it backward to a time when it wasn't exactly the same. It would be like trying to take, you know, the donation of properties to the Church in. In January of 1830 and try to deal with them on the basis of what a bishop should or shouldn't do with them today. The problem is In January of 18, well, January of 1831, there weren't any bishops. So you don't have the ability to figure out how a bishop in January of 1831 would deal with that donation of property, because there weren't any bishops yet. They hadn't been revealed yet until February. So the quorum of the 12 is going to all throughout 1841, Joseph is going to give more and more and more authority to them and make them equal in terms of the first presidency. But even then, he has not yet given all the keys of the kingdom to them, which he will do before he's murdered. So it's kind of an ahistorical question in the sense of when Hyrum's made. I mean, this wasn't really your question, but like all people who don't know what they're talking about.

[Listener]

I just.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

I didn't vet my own question just to make it sound better. When Hyrum's given that lofty position higher than anyone else in the church, not only presiding patriarch, but also somehow co prophet, it's at a time before the quorum of the 12 is as powerful as it. As it will be by the time Joseph is murdered. So that's. There's that there. Now, as to the. The other question that we had about Hiram and connecting with him, my guess is my little rant there doesn't really help you connect with him at all. But let me at least share something with you that probably you might not have heard before. And that's because when we were working on the council of 50 minutes, it was exhilarating. And I know that it seems weird to say that about reading a document from history. Okay, I understand. I'm not the first person people invite to a cocktail party for various reasons, you know, but it was exhilarating. It was exhilarating because these were words that were recorded, teachings that were recorded of apostles and the prophet Joseph Smith himself that no one knew existed. I mean, we knew The Council of 50 Records existed, but they'd never been made public. And so now we actually had access to some new teachings of the apostles, some new understandings of, Of. Of Joseph Smith and others. And one of the cool things you get from The Council of 50 Minutes is a little bit of a sermon that Hyrum Smith gives. And this is very late. This is just a couple of months before he's murdered. So what is Hyrum Smith thinking in the months leading up to his murder? This is what he says. And this is. William Clayton is recording this as Hyrum Smith is saying it. So it's going to be third person because William Clayton is the recorder. He's the one writing this down. And so he'll say, elder Hyrum Smith said this, Joseph Smith said this. But it's a real time creation of the document. It's the minutes of the meeting that they're in. Elder Hyrum Smith said the observations by our President Joseph were so well accorded with his own feelings that he wanted to say a few words. When Moses was appointed to lead the people, God gave him Aaron to speak for him. When God called Enoch, he wanted to know why God had done so. In as much as he was an illiterate man, God told him to go forth and he would justify his words. Enoch went forth in the exercise of Faith not in the exercise of great words. God walked with Enoch 300 years. Moses had power before him. Mount Sinai trembled and shook to the center. Had Moses not gone forth in the exercise of faith, he would not have accomplished the work which God had sent him to do. We stand in the same light now. So what he's making is because, look, they're trying to figure out, how do we go about organizing the kingdom of God on earth? We're planning to leave the country. We have no idea where we're supposed to go. How are we going to do it? How are we going to move tens of thousands of people, thousands of miles out of the country? How are we going to organize it? What kind of government are we going to create when we get there? How are we going to convince people to fall? These are all pretty good questions when you're thinking of a mass exodus from the United States. And the way that Hyrum tries to settle some of the fears of the men that are there is by saying, hey, you don't accomplish the miracles and works of God by speaking. Well, it's not because you have an answer for everything, that you're able to do the will of God. You're able to do the will of God because you do it. Hyrum is advocating that. Yeah, you don't know how you're supposed to do it. That's actually the point. You rely on God and things are going to turn out. And so he says that. That Moses, and we all know Moses, was slow of speech. That's why Aaron had to be appointed. He would not have accomplished the work which God had sent him to do if he had not exercised faith. And then he, like any great teacher, he relates it to us. We stand in the same light. We have a greater power and are called to do a greater work. We have more power than Enoch, and we have a greater work to do than Enoch, and we shall accomplish it. So I think, you know, you're lucky to have, you know, in your family, progenitors, you know, to go back to someone like Hyrum Smith. And so I thought maybe I'd share with you this. What a beautiful thought. And, you know, it really is similar to what Nephi has to say.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

Every time I read first Nephi, I am just electrified. Like, I can feel it physically. Every time I read Nephi's response to his brothers. Every time. When you have his brothers who just absolutely. Just every single thing that they're told to do, nope, we're not going to do it.

[Listener]

No, there's no way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And we always quote the first part of this discussion, that I will go and do the things that the Lord has commanded, you know, and. And. And I know that. That he's. He's going to prepare a way. That's a beautiful verse. But I. I love how Nephi will. Will after his brothers, you know, begin beating him with a rod again, which is right after it, an angel appears. They stop beating him. I mean, they probably just lower the rod to one side. They probably drop it. Uh, there's like, what, what, what? We're not doing anything. Like any older brother when he's caught beating up the younger brother, when dad walks in, you know, like, well, no, we were just playing.

[Listener]

We were just playing. I was. We were playing Nephi pinata is what we were playing. That's what we were playing. And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmot]

And Nephi won. But when you go to chapter four, I. I don't know why this verse speaks to me so powerful. Because at the tail end of chapter three, even though the angel has appeared, the moment that angel leaves, Laman and Elamiel again began to murmur, saying, how is it possible that the Lord will deliver Laban into our hands? Behold, he is a mighty man, and he can command 50. Yeah, he can slay 50. Then why not us? And I think I identify so much with it because, you know, look, I have a. You have to have a fairly logical mind to want to study artifacts and documents from the past. You certainly don't have a very good judgment because you're making a decision to have a career where, you know, you will never be well off, you know, but I have a pretty logical mind. And so when I'm commanded to do things, literally the first thing I do is I sit down before I build my tower, and I start to count the cost, and I go, okay, what are the logistics of this? How could we get it done? And, you know, basically, I'm. I'm layman and Lemuel, I get told to do something, and the first thing I think of is all the reasons why it might not work. That's what I think of. And, you know, look, there's. There's only a few of them, and Laban's got 50 armed military men. He can command 50. What are we supposed to do? What we do, Beat up Laban and steal the brass plates? We're going to just go, you know, assault his guards and get in there and get it. I mean, come on. And even though an angel said, go do it, as soon as that angel was gone. Their response was, how is that possible? Instead of saying, if an angel said we're going to do it, then that means we're going to do it. And that's why, you know, it's electric to me. Nephi's response, it came to pass. I spake to my brethren, saying, let us go up again unto Jerusalem. Let us be faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord. For behold, he is mightier than all the earth. Then why not mightier than Laban and his 50 year, even his tens of thousands? Therefore, let us go up and be strong, like unto Moses. For he truly spake unto the waters of the Red Sea. And they divided hither and thither. And our fathers came through out of captivity on dry ground. And the armies of the Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea. I love it because they are focused on what are the worldly problems that would prevent us from following the Commandments. And Nephi's focused on the power of God. Hey, do we really believe that God is God? If we really believe that God is telling us to do this, then the same God who parts the Red Sea can open up a way for us. The same God who carried away the. The children, that same God has the ability to help us do it. And I feel like that's what. What Hyrum's doing is in the same vein. He's trying to say, stop being so worried about how we're going to get this to work and start being more worried about the fact that God has told us to do it. And if God's told us to do it, then it's going to work. And you know what? As co prophet of the church, Hyrum was very prophetic in that moment because it still stands. To secular historians, it stands as a miracle. The mass migration of Latter Day Saints into Mexico, more than a thousand miles away over terrible terrain, and how few casualties they had in doing it. How incredible it was that they were able to hold things together. I mean, my own progeny, progenitors, My own progenitors, their parents died at winter quarters and they had to cross the plains themselves as young teenage kids. How does that happen? How does that group stay together? Because of the miracle of God, the power of God in preserving this, this restoration of the gospel. This church has passed through many miracles. And you will hear the naysayers all day long on the Internet and every single anti Mormon subreddit talk about how the church, the church's days are numbered and no more people are joining, everybody's leaving the church in droves. Well, that's not what the numbers actually say. I know it seems like everybody's leaving when people in your family or people close to you have the numbers demonstrate the church is growing while many religions around it are failing. And those same people saying that the church won't be here in 20 years are the same people who are saying it 50 years ago. And we are still here. So I would say take from Hyrum the faith that whatever God has commanded us to do, somehow it will be accomplished. So thank you so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.