Standard of Truth Podcast - Season 5, Episode 24: "Was Hyrum Smith Called as an Apostle?"

Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmont
Guest: Dr. Richard Leduc
Release Date: June 5, 2025

Introduction

In Season 5, Episode 24 of the Standard of Truth podcast, titled "Was Hyrum Smith Called as an Apostle?", Dr. Garrett Dirkmont engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Richard Leduc about the ecclesiastical role of Hyrum Smith within the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The episode delves deep into historical documents, doctrinal interpretations, and the nuances of church leadership structures during Joseph Smith's prophetic tenure.

Opening Banter

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in light-hearted banter about their mutual disdain for the New York Knicks juxtaposed with their appreciation for the Yankees. This segment serves as an engaging icebreaker, setting a relaxed tone for the scholarly discussions to follow.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont [00:48]: "I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, the great Dr. Richard Leduc."

Dr. Richard Leduc [00:48]: "Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to be here after the Knicks have been eliminated from the playoffs because for some reason I hate the Knicks."

Personal Testimony Story

Dr. Leduc shares a personal anecdote from a sacrament meeting in Fruita, Colorado, where he felt a strong spiritual prompting to share his testimony by reading a scripture from Doctrine and Covenants, Section 58, Verse 4. Despite his initial hesitation due to not being in his typical church attire and consulting with his son Parker, he ultimately reflects on the importance of acting on spiritual promptings.

Dr. Richard Leduc [06:03]: "I had this thought and I should get up and share it. And I just keep, you know, just suppressing and pushing it down..."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont [16:07]: "That's why Elder Bednar's counsel is so great. If you receive an impression that you should go visit one of your lonely, you know, widow neighbors... just do it."

This segment highlights the internal conflict many believers face when discerned spiritual prompts challenge their self-doubt or fear of inadequacy.

Listener Emails and Main Question: Hyrum Smith as Apostle

The core of the episode revolves around a listener email questioning whether Hyrum Smith was officially called as an Apostle within the church hierarchy. Dr. Leduc provides an in-depth analysis of Doctrine and Covenants Section 124, which details revelations received by Joseph Smith in January 1841 in Nauvoo. This section discusses Hyrum Smith's elevation to a prophetic role alongside Joseph Smith, raising questions about his standing relative to the traditional Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Dr. Richard Leduc [45:29]: "So you think in Alabama then, or... with their new head coach, though, who knows?"

Dr. Richard Leduc [48:26]: "Now, we have that...he is a prophet, seer and revelator."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [55:04]: "They are sent off on missions by him. He gives more and more authority to them."

The hosts explore whether Hyrum Smith's roles and titles align with the canonical definitions of apostleship, considering his responsibilities and the timing of his ordination relative to the establishment of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Discussion on Church Organization and Apostleship

Dr. Dirkmont and Dr. Leduc delve into the historical context of church leadership structures, examining how revelations like those in Section 124 influenced the distribution of authority within the church. They compare Hyrum Smith's designated roles to those of Oliver Cowdery, another significant early church leader, to assess similarities and differences in their ecclesiastical duties and titles.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [52:11]: "Now, that is also the same thing that apostles are ordained to."

Dr. Richard Leduc [55:09]: "But unlike all the prophets that follow Joseph, Joseph was given his authority directly by the previous apostleship."

The analysis underscores the complexity of early church governance and how it evolved under Joseph Smith's prophetic leadership, highlighting the unique positions held by key figures like Hyrum Smith.

Secular Truth and Discernment

Shifting focus, the hosts address broader themes of discerning truth amidst contemporary challenges such as misinformation and conspiracy theories. Drawing parallels between historical instances of religious deception and modern-day information overload, they emphasize the importance of relying on established prophetic guidance and the Holy Spirit for spiritual discernment.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [27:21]: "It's a question of, you know, epistemology. How do we know what we know?"

Dr. Richard Leduc [38:27]: "If someone is trying to teach something on a podcast... that sounds kind of cool to you, but you can't find any record of it being taught recently in the church, that's a real place to push the pause button."

They stress the necessity of aligning new teachings and information with current prophetic counsel to safeguard against spiritual deception and maintain doctrinal integrity.

Christie's Corner and Lighthearted Banter

Interspersed with the substantive discussions, the hosts engage in their trademark humorous exchanges, particularly during the "Christie's Corner" segment. This portion includes playful ribbing about each other's roles within church assignments and reflecting on personal quirks, adding a relatable and approachable dimension to the scholarly discourse.

Dr. Richard Leduc [18:24]: "We're gonna morph Christie's Corner into a getting ready for Sunday school lesson, into ways to... To bag on Richard."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [21:27]: "Well, we have two emails here, kind of similar topics. Do you want Joel next or Melanie next?"

Conclusion

In concluding the episode, Dr. Dirkmont reflects on the ongoing quest to understand historical church figures and their roles, acknowledging the challenges in interpreting early church revelations and organizational structures. The discussion reinforces the significance of foundational church documents and prophetic guidance in navigating both historical inquiries and contemporary spiritual dilemmas.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [49:12]: "So that's where I think you never allow what you think about a gospel topic to be fully swayed by someone that's coming outside of the mainstream of the church."

The episode seamlessly intertwines historical analysis with personal narratives and practical spiritual advice, offering listeners a comprehensive exploration of Hyrum Smith's apostolic status and broader themes of faith and truth.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Richard Leduc [06:03]: "I had this thought and I should get up and share it. And I just keep, you know, just suppressing and pushing it down..."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmont [16:07]: "That's why Elder Bednar's counsel is so great. If you receive an impression that you should go visit one of your lonely, you know, widow neighbors... just do it."

• Dr. Richard Leduc [48:26]: "Now, we have that...he is a prophet, seer and revelator."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmot [27:21]: "It's a question of, you know, epistemology. How do we know what we know?"

• Dr. Richard Leduc [38:27]: "If someone is trying to teach something on a podcast... that sounds kind of cool to you, but you can't find any record of it being taught recently in the church, that's a real place to push the pause button."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Standard of Truth offers an insightful examination of Hyrum Smith's potential apostleship, contextualizing it within the broader framework of early Latter-Day Saint church history and leadership. Through a blend of scholarly analysis, personal storytelling, and engaging dialogue, Dr. Dirkmont and Dr. Leduc provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of ecclesiastical roles and the enduring quest for spiritual truth.

For those seeking to deepen their knowledge of church history and strengthen their faith, this episode serves as a valuable resource, elucidating complex historical narratives with clarity and reverence.

If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing to the Standard of Truth podcast and sharing it with fellow Latter-Day Saints seeking to enrich their understanding of church history and doctrine.