S5E27 - Used Car Salesman Johann Tetzel (formerly premium content from JSR)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth
Episode: S5E27 - Used Car Salesman Johann Tetzel
Release Date: June 26, 2025
Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Professor Richard Leduc

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Introduction

In Episode S5E27 of Standard of Truth, titled "Used Car Salesman Johann Tetzel," Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Professor Richard Leduc delve into a pivotal moment in religious history that set the stage for the Protestant Reformation. This episode focuses on Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar renowned for his aggressive sale of indulgences, and Martin Luther, the monastic theologian whose response ignited significant theological and societal shifts.

Martin Luther's Spiritual Journey

The episode begins with an exploration of Martin Luther's early life and spiritual struggles. Martin Luther, an Augustinian monk, experienced a profound spiritual conversion that redirected his path from a potential legal career to monastic life. Dr. Dirkmaat explains, “Luther becomes obsessed with his own lack of perfection” (06:00).

Luther's intense introspection led him to grapple with feelings of unworthiness despite his devout practices. Professor Leduc highlights Luther's relentless pursuit of righteousness:
"He would go to confession two or three times a day, tormented by his own perceived sinfulness" (07:00).

This inner turmoil fueled Luther's theological inquiries, particularly his study of the Pauline epistles, which emphasized salvation through grace rather than through adherence to the law.

The Sale of Indulgences and Johann Tetzel

Central to the episode is Johann Tetzel's role in the sale of indulgences. Tetzel, a Dominican friar, was commissioned by Pope Leo X to raise funds for the renovation of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Dr. Dirkmaat describes Tetzel as “probably one of the greatest salesmen in the history of the world” (02:11), highlighting his persuasive and often manipulative sales tactics.

Indulgences, in Catholic theology, are offerings that reduce the time one or their loved ones spend in purgatory. Tetzel's aggressive promotion of indulgences, encapsulated in his infamous slogan,
"As soon as the coin and the coffer clings, the soul from purgatory springs" (39:59),
was seen by many, including Martin Luther, as a corruption of true Christian doctrine.

Theological Debate and Criticism

Luther's primary objection to Tetzel's practices was theological. He argued that salvation cannot be bought and that indulgences undermine the essence of grace. Dr. Dirkmaat explains,
"Luther is going to argue that people thinking they're going to heaven because they bought an indulgence are going to see the preacher who sold them that indulgence never get there" (41:31).

Professor Leduc adds,
"Luther's writings become increasingly radical as he challenges the very foundation of indulgence theology, questioning the Pope's motives and the ethical implications of selling spiritual salvation" (52:37).

The duo also touches upon the broader context of Lutheran vs. Catholic interpretations, emphasizing that while Catholicism views indulgences as voluntary donations tied to spiritual benefits, Luther saw them as exploitative and theologically unsound.

Impact on the Protestant Reformation

The culmination of Luther's frustration with indulgences led to the drafting of the 95 Theses, a document that publicly challenged the Catholic Church's practices and doctrines. Although not extensively covered in this episode, Dr. Dirkmaat hints at the monumental impact these theses would have:
"These points Martin Luther is going to make... have descendants in every non-Catholic Christian belief today" (51:42).

The hosts suggest that Luther's stand against Tetzel was a significant catalyst for the Protestant Reformation, leading to widespread theological debates and the eventual splintering of Christian denominations.

Conclusion and Future Episodes

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next installment, which will delve deeper into the immediate aftermath of the 95 Theses, Luther's excommunication, and the broader theological and societal changes that ensued.

Dr. Dirkmaat humorously reflects on the episodic content,
"Every Christian you talk to who is not a Catholic... are descendants from these points Martin Luther is going to make" (51:42),
signifying the enduring legacy of Luther's challenges to the Catholic Church.

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Notable Quotes:

• Professor Richard Leduc [39:59]:
  "As soon as the coin and the coffer clings, the soul from purgatory springs."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [06:00]:
  "Luther becomes obsessed with his own lack of perfection."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [41:31]:
  "Luther is going to argue that people thinking they're going to heaven because they bought an indulgence are going to see the preacher who sold them that indulgence never get there."

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Key Takeaways:

• Martin Luther's Struggles: Luther's personal battle with sin and his quest for theological understanding led him to question established Church practices.

• Johann Tetzel's Indulgences: Tetzel's aggressive sale of indulgences for the renovation of St. Peter's Basilica exemplified practices that Luther found morally and theologically objectionable.

• Theological Conflict: The episode underscores the conflict between intrinsic grace-based salvation and the commercialization of spiritual salvation through indulgences.

• Catalyst for Reformation: Luther's criticisms against Tetzel were instrumental in sparking the Protestant Reformation, leading to significant shifts in Christian doctrine and church authority.

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This episode provides a comprehensive examination of the interplay between theological beliefs and institutional practices that precipitated one of Christianity's most significant movements. By focusing on the dynamic between Martin Luther and Johann Tetzel, Dr. Dirkmaat and Professor Leduc illuminate the profound challenges and changes that redefined religious landscapes.

Transcript

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm Garrett's friend, Professor Richard leduc. I imagine that every time you hear this open, it takes you back to high school, when the substitute teacher would be rolling in a TV to show you a video on the migratory patterns of blue whales as they seek colder waters to eat krill. I imagine, again, it's the exact same feeling. But this will be the last time that you hear this introduction for season five, at least, as I am introducing to you Joseph Smith in the Restoration episode called Used Car Salesman Johan Tetzel. In this episode, we talk about one of my favorite characters from religious history, Johann Tzel, and his job of selling indulgences for the Catholic Church as a fundraiser for the renovation of St. Peter's Basilica. We hope that you enjoy this episode and look forward to speaking with you again next week.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to Joseph Smith and the Restoration, a Standard of Truth podcast production. In this podcast, host Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Professor Richard Leduc will discuss the events of the Restoration in the order they occurred. Listeners will follow Joseph Smith as he rises from the obscurity of a poor farm boy to the prophet of the Restoration. They will learn of the trials and triumphs, the miracles and misery of Joseph Smith and early members of the church.

Hi, welcome to another episode of Joseph Smith and the Restoration, a Standard of Truth podcast production. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard Leduc.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. In this episode, we're actually going to finally get to Martin Luther. We've been.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've teased him.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

We've teased Martin Luther since February, and now we're here, we're also going to talk about probably one of the greatest salesmen in the history of the world.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is why you're excited that I.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Look up to as.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not you look up to him.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, I look up to him not necessarily for what he did, but the way he did it was very effective.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you've got a job, do it well. Yeah, and. And he understood the assignment. Yeah, let's just put it that way. Yeah. So, yeah, we. We talked about, as we ended our last episode, how Martin Luther is so transformative and. And why it matters so much to the Restoration. Now we're going to talk about some of these other Restoration churches, their founding and how they influenced Joseph Smith and. And his questions that he has, but they. All roads don't lead back to Rome. Actually, for Protestantism, all roads lead back to Martin Luther, who says, I've had enough of Rome. So that's why we have to spend time on Martin Luther. So Martin Luther is a. He's an Augustinian monk, and he has a powerful spiritual conversion. He. His parents want him to be a lawyer because that's how you actually make money. And so he's on his way to law school, and he gets caught in this violent thunderstorm. And, I mean, lightning is crashing right next to him. And he's certain that he is going to die. And he will cry out, St. Anne, save me, and I will become a monk. And lo and behold, the winds abate, the storm dies down, and he is saved. And he now has to make good on his promises to St. Anne, who he will later no longer think is a saint. So I think it's kind of counterintuitive. He will always venerate the mother of Mary, but not as. Not in the same way as he would as a Catholic priest. So he will instead head into the monastery. Now, not only does that mean that his parents are going to be deprived of grandchildren, it also means that he will not be making the money that a lawyer would be making. And Luther throws himself into the study of the Scriptures. And as someone who had been living a life that was not terribly focused on God and then suddenly became focused on God, Luther became obsessed with his own lack of perfection. I am guessing that there are people listening to this podcast right now who would identify with Luther a great deal, or you at least know somebody who would identify with Luther. Luther had completely devoted his life to Jesus. He'd taken a vow of poverty and celibacy. He joined a monastery, and yet he found that no matter how much he studied, no matter how much he was certain that. That he was. He was devoting his life to Jesus. He still had sinful thoughts. He still had sinful actions, even in this cloistered monastery. And it drove him crazy. Now, I don't want to say he was crazy, but it. It made it so he couldn't even sleep. He was so certain and anxious that he was a sinner, he would go to confession. So part of Catholic theology is in order to receive absolution for your sins, you go confess them to your priest. And inside the monastery, he. You know, his. His senior monk was the. The person you would confess your sins to. And he would go to confession not just once a week or once a month. He would often attempt to go if his confessor it. By the way, if you ever hear the term confessor in. In. In medieval or European history, you'll hear things like Edward the confessor. It doesn't mean that Edward is confessing his sins. It means he's someone that is having sins confessed to him. So he'd go to his confessor and he'd go two or three times a day and to the point where, you know, the senior monk is just like, dude, you've got. I mean, I don't think he said dude.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No. In Germany.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In Germany, yeah. Yeah. He was, he was like, da, da, da. Yeah. I don't know. He, he eventually his. His senior monk was like, you, you've got to stop this constant self berating, just all encompassing sinfulness. I mean, and I think this is what's, what's troubling Luther is I don't have the ability to actually be righteous. Oh, sure, I can keep from committing the giant sins, but then Brother Maynard steps in front of me in the bread line while we're getting our gruel, and I think about the fact that I don't like him very much, even for a second. Well, in fairness, now I'm a sinner.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, but Brother Maynard's a jerk.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, first of all, Brother Maynard, I've.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Heard nothing but terrible things.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Everyone has talked about Brother Maynard and the way that he is, the way that he. I don't even know the way he.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Cuts in front of the gruel wine.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is there a Brother Maynard listening? If there is, please email the podcast and let us know that you're a better man than Martin Luther thought you were. I don't even know if there's a Brother Maynard that was in his parish, but Luther is going to be really troubled by this until as he is reading in the Pauline epistles, especially in Romans, and then also in the book of Hebrews, Luther comes to the conclusion that in fact the law or keeping all of the commandments is actually impossible. And that that was part of the purpose of Jesus coming was because you couldn't actually keep the law. Now, of course, Paul, when he is speaking to the Hebrews and to the Romans about the idea, he's speaking to Jewish Christians who are insisting that they maintain all of the law of Moses, including forcing adult male converts to be circumcised, which there's a lot of Greeks who are like, oh, something that would have been nice to know yesterday. They, they, he's. He's talking about something different, at least. Look, historians and scholars will say that what Paul is talking about is not quite the same thing that, that Martin Luther is talking about. Paul is talking about the salvation of A nation. Right. Paul is talking about how is it that people become right with God? A people, how is it they become right with God? Because, of course, the Jewish Christians who've accepted Jesus as a messiah but are still advocating that you keep all of the law. They think the law is somehow still part of their salvation. Now, it's not the same thing as Paul saying, hey, you can fornicate with whoever you want. Paul doesn't ever say that. If you're looking in the. Where is that? Is that Corinthians? Fourth Corinthians.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's the missing. This is the third time I am coming to you. We're missing that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The first time I came to you. Fornicate. Who with? Whoever you want. Second time, I'll stop preaching a different gospel. Third time, baptism for the dead. I don't know. I don't know. Whatever happens. But so in some ways, now, again, if you're a Lutheran listening to this, first of all, thank you so much for signing up.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I mean, for the premium.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You signed up for the premium content.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

We love our Lutheran listeners.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so a Lutheran, Lutheran will not agree with this assertion. This is obviously an assertion that's coming from people that are not Lutherans. But in general, biblical scholars, New Testament scholars will say that Luther derives his theology in a way by a misreading of the Pauline epistles. Paul is specifically talking about the lack of the necessity to maintain all of the works of the law of Moses in order for people to have salvation. And really, Luther is going to take this to. That's applied to individual salvation. And works of the law is no longer law of Moses. Works of the law is works, period. Right? Luther grabs a hold of this idea. Now, it's hard to. I mean, if you read some of Luther's writings, they are dark. I mean, he, you know, if Mother Teresa went through a long, dark night of the soul. Martin Luther went through a long, dark life of the soul. I mean, his whole life, he was always haunted with the idea that he was still a sinner, even though he'd accepted Jesus. So in some ways, look, it is incredibly. I mean, it's a powerful thing that his devotion to Jesus is such that he is constantly doing introspection and constantly realizing, I don't measure up. If Jesus said be perfect, I ain't even close. But it does give him this release. You actually can't be perfect. The law condemns you or commandments following them. The only way you can be saved is through the grace of Christ. Now, Luther is a preacher. He's preaching. Not only is he a teacher at Wittenberg University, he also has his own congregation and he's preaching to them and he begins to heavily focus on these ideas of grace. So for a little while, Luther is a, he is a very. I mean, I don't know how you want to say it, whether you want to say the word liberal or conservative. He's a very eccentric but fully orthodox Catholic priest preaching to his flock, highlighting Paul's teachings on, on grace.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, what I almost envisioned this as. He's Vincenzo di Francesca from how rare a possession.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Vincenzo, repent of your stubbornness where he's.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

He'S preaching to a Catholic congregation.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not Catholic, it's a Protestant sect that he's a part of, but they don't tell us which one.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Oh, very.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But he's preaching from the problem.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So. But he's, but he's preaching but from the Book of Mormon here in Luther. He's, you know, he's preaching to a Catholic group and. But he's, he's, you know, he's pushing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The envelopes of the relationship between grace and ordinances for salvation. Now, of course, he's an Augustinian monk and the Augustinians already highly focus on hard. In a, in a very difficult to believe connection. The writings of St. Augustine. In one of history's unknown mysteries, the Augustinian order seems to adhere to Augustinian beliefs. It's very. We have our crack research squad working on this right now. What in the world are they thinking? And, and who was St. Augustine? Remember, St. Augustine was the one who himself was a. Unlike Luther was a profligate sinner. I mean, just someone who was filled with sin and iniquity and in fact was so in love with the hedonistic things of the world that even after he realized that the Church, that Christianity was true, he hesitated joining because he didn't want to give up his sins. He is the one who is often quoted if he, you know, he said, I prayed to God, give me chastity and give me constancy, but don't give it to me yet. One can only imagine why it is that he wants to wait on receiving. Chastity also makes you wonder whether or not Augustine is aware of what the meaning of the word chastity is as it seems. Yeah, he was, he was not as chaste a man as he, as he might have been. So for Augustine, knowing how big a sinner he was, he in his writings heavily focuses on grace. That salvation is in some ways predestined by the grace that God gives you. And that grace is what causes you to change from being a profligate sinner begging for less chastity to someone who is devoted to. To God. So Luther, of course, he draws heavily on August. And Augustine, of course, is a saint. Augustine is a pillar of Catholic theology. He is not. He is not. It's not wrong to quote St. Augustine. Augustine is. He's orthodox. It's okay to quote him. And so Luther's going to rely heavily on them. So what takes Luther from being just a kind of, you know, a little bit of an errant priest? A little. A little. He's a little on the margins of what he's teaching to being a heretic who. People want to see his flesh burning in the street. And in fact, people will say things like that. Well, along comes yet another monk. This is Johan Tetzel. Now, I believe this is who Richard was referring to. It is when he talked about. He has a picture of him on his wall.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The greatest salesman.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I have a vision board. And on the vision board is Johan Tetzel.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And that's a tough vision board because I don't know if all of the images of Johann Tetzel have all been drawn by Lutherans, but I have a sense that they all have been drawn by Lutherans.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, he looks like George the animal steel from 80s.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

After eight years retirement. I mean, he.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

After letting himself go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, he looks like. Frankly, he looks like he ate another Johan Tetzel. And I don't know if it's deliberate, but it's not a good look. Now, he's from a different order. He's a Dominican. And the Dominican order in particular has been tasked by the Pope with collecting this great jubilee indulgence. The Pope is going to issue a jubilee indulgence. Remember, we talked a little bit about indulgences. That for the purpose of rebuilding and creating the magnificent St. Peter's Basilica. If you've ever been to Rome, it is the place to go. St. Peter's Basilica is. It really is unrivaled in the world as a religious building. Well, there had always been a St. Peter's Basilica, but by the early 1500s, that existing church was pretty decrepit, and it was actually kind of an embarrassment to the papacy. Right. I mean, well, how do you have your authority? Well, the first bishop of Rome was Peter, and he gave his authority to me. And why we venerate Peter? Why is his church falling down? Well, we'll get around Cletus. It was Cletus Yeah, yeah, Linus did that. Yeah. So there's this special jubilee indulgence that's issued that for donations to the rebuilding of this basilica, people can receive a jubilee indulgence that will lessen their time in purgatory. Now, of course, look, whenever you talk about the sale of indulgences, having a Catholic with you and having a Lutheran with you will yield incredibly different ways that those are described. The way a Catholic would describe it is that people choose to donate money to the church to help build a great church for St. Peter. Every latter day saint listening can understand that idea. You know what? I'm going to donate money to help build a temple. Right? I mean, everybody gets that. And that because you donate the money, the church as essentially a reward to you. Because you've donated of your own free will, you will be granted this indulgence that will lessen either your time or one of your relatives time in purgatory. Now look, the amount of time you spend in purgatory is deemed to be a really, really, really long time. It is not a rare thing for Catholic theologians of the 14 and 1500s to argue that people will be spending millions of years in purgatory. So, or to put in reverse, what we often talk about, you know, as a day is a thousand years for God. They will often say, you know, that one day of sinfulness on earth requires a thousand years for each of those sins in the next in purgatory in order to be fully cleansed. So the idea that you, this isn't like, hey, I stopped off at the, at the quick stop on my way to heaven and here I am with a bag of milk that I bought in a Wisconsin, you know, you know, stop and shop. They sold milk by the bags. If you were a missionary, that's how you.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Is that right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it was a bit, it was a, it was milk. It wasn't. Well, it wasn't in a bag. It was in a big milk by the big. And you could also buy a pitcher with the big and you'd cut the end of it. And that's. It'd be very. It's the most inexpensive way to buy milk. Now if you're someone who's used to drinking a gallon of milk per day and you go on a mission and the stipend you're given will only allow you to drink a gallon of milk a week. We've got problems. Yeah, yeah. And so you have to find ways to get around it and buying it.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

In a bag, buying it in a Bag and putting it in a bag.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And the funny part about it is where you bought the bag of milk was not at the grocery store. The only people who carried the bag of milk was. Was the gas station. Yeah, I thought maybe I should buy some sushi while I'm there, but obviously my limited funds didn't allow for that either. What do you want from me? I was in Wisconsin. I. No one was listening to us. The only thing that brought me any joy at all was milk from a bag. In fact, the milk wasn't that great in the bag. And so eventually, eventually I'd just not eat. So I could buy real milk and then I just eat the milk. Yeah, it's very healthy.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Anyway, like milk from a bag, that is. It sounds better than it is to a missionary. The idea of the Jubilee indulgence sounds better to Pope Leo and the College of Cardinals than it does to the rank and file as things go down the line. Now, look, important in all of this is there has always been a kind of tension between people in what was then the Holy Roman Empire, these various different Germanic states, and Rome itself, all the way back to Charlemagne and other Germanic kings. They were frustrated by the fact that the Pope, who was almost always an Italian, happened to have so much power because he was the head of this, of this Church. And so that was manifested by some resentment towards. Towards the papacy. Well, at any rate, the Pope declares a special jubilee indulgence and there are representatives who go out to sell these. Now, again, a Catholic will not call it a sale of an indulgence. What is going on is you are donating money to the building of St. Peter's Basilica out of his grace, because you were kind enough to donate. The Pope is going to grant you an indulgence that will lessen your time in purgatory or one of your relatives time in, in purgatory.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So if that's, you know, a Catholic would say that that was the intent. Is that, is that because Johann Tetzel seems like he's. He's going out there and hawking, hawking time out of Purgatory for money. Is that Pope Leo X's intent, do you believe?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Pope Leo X has been counseled that the way to raise money to build this massive building is through the sale of indulgences. Now, indulgences, of course, are already a well established aspect of both Catholic theology and Catholic finances. So this is not, this is not something out of the ordinary. Right. In fact, to put it in a latter Day saint perspective. None of you even think twice about someone coming to your house and asking for a fast offering. Except now, in the days where you can pay it online, you're like, why are you coming to my house? I already paid it online. But say you couldn't pay it online. Someone comes to your house and asks money for a fast offering, well, you don't have to pay it. You do pay it because you're trying to help out. But if your bishop said, hey, we've got a lot of people who are really in need in the ward, we're going to send the deacons around a second time this month because we really need to help these people. This is a special fast collection. We need your help. You wouldn't think of it as somehow an evil thing. In fact, you'd probably be like, you know what? We do need to help. Right. Because it's operating on the basis of an already existing theology of donating fast offerings to the. For the poor. For Catholic theology, indulgences are something that have already existed. This idea of super irrigation. Again, the lawn care company in Florida, which.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Or Georgia.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was somewhere in the south. Yes, Florida, Georgia line.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We need to start one in Rome. Yeah. I think. Is it mostly dry?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It's arid.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Well, I mean, we need it to be a place where you actually have to have lawn sprinklers.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, let's see what we can do. Yeah, we'll start in Sicily, get some help from. I believe that they've got a strong union. Union presence down in Sicily.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

A union or the Cosa Nostra. They're in.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

They're in waste management.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, they are, yes. I'm afraid we would end up also in waste management, but in the managed part. We would be being managed were we to try there. Yeah, that. That is. No, if you're listening in Sicily and you happen to be a mob boss, that is in no way a reference to the Mafia. If you're listening in Sicily and happen to be a member of the Cosa Nostra. Anyway, the reality is that is how they decide they're going to try to fund it. Now, is it ethical? Well, that's going to be an argument that will be had all the way down from between Catholic and Lutheran theologians. Even today, the reality is, when someone's given a task to go do, you kind of lose control of how it is they perform that task? And Johann Tetzel was the greatest hawker of indulgences that ever existed. I mean, he had a pretty set spiel. That he would go to various different German towns and he would, first of all, talk about the horrors of hell.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

And you want to start in any sales environment. We'll start with the pain points you want to say.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, see, Richard knows what he's trying to do.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No, you want to, you want to, you want to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How many of you have ever found yourself standing outside when it's raining?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No, so you start with the fire.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And brimstone because God is destroying you.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah. No, so your. Your family is in purgatory, suffering. And you're going to go there and suffer.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And. And the reason why your family's there is you're a cheapskate.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, I mean, your family doesn't have to be killed by the intruders who come into your house, but you won't buy the smart home system, and that's why they're all going to die because you decided to save a few dollars. I mean, essentially, you're right. The kind of the sales pitch that is. Is both playing on both love and fear. Right? Well, I love my family, and because I love them, I fear for their safety.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So was it. Was it just for the people that the family or friends or whomever that have passed away, or could people purchase.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Their own salvation so you could buy an indulgence? You gotta be careful how you say that. So you said purchase your own salvation. Boy, that every Catholic, Lutheran. Every Catholic listening has. Shut the podcast off.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, we're mostly Lutherans at this point.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we have a huge Lutheran base.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

We're big in Minnesota.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But what if Pete ever listened to this Catholic. Exactly. So he would feel like you're mischaracterizing it.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Boy, if our. If our bus driver from our tour started getting the premium content listening, that would be something. We're sorry.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Could figure out how to give premium content. Just.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I haven't listened to it. I haven't looked into it. I'm sure there's a way. I've never looked into it, so there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Probably is a way. I'm sure you just keep telling me there is no way. So what I'm like, hey, I'd like to give Bill a free premium content. You're always like, they don't even have a way of doing that.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No, I've. I've always said I. I don't know how to do that. But I also have never looked at willful ignorance. Pretty much.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so speaking of willful ignorance.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So not. Not purchase their own salvation, but make a donation that then in turn causes the Pope to grant my own salvation.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Certainly not purchasing, and again, not salvation.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But the speeding through purgatory.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. You're not buying your way out of hell. You're buying your way into heaven. If you. If you look at it as that. Again, as a Lutheran would say. As a Lutheran would say. So you're not. You're not buying. You are. You are purchasing, through your donation, the application of already existing merit that as a reward for your good works on this earth by helping construct St. Peter's Basilica, that merit is being applied to you to cover some of your venial sins that you would have otherwise taken with you into purgatory and be there millions of years.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Totally fair. Let me rephrase. So can I purchase my own salvation or the salvation of just my family members?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. I feel like your anti Catholic, pro Lutheran agenda has been clear for quite some time, and I feel like you're just gonna keep pushing your. You're so pro Lutheran. I don't understand. I want you to be fair to our Catholic brothers and sisters.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, so, I mean, but. But this.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But. But basically, can I purchase this for myself?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, I mean, so this is actually at the heart of the problem, is that no matter how you're trying to describe what it is, the way it looks is the way that I'm. I'm kind of teasing a little bit.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And part of the reason why it looks that way is people like Johan Tetzel are selling it that way. And this is part of what really upsets Luther. Now, look, everybody who's listening, who's religious, which I'm assuming is several of you. I mean, I don't know. Is there anyone who signed up for the premium who doesn't listen to the regular podcast?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

My wife. We were. She was telling a story, like, a couple of weeks ago, and her. And she was telling this story about a spiritual experience that she had had. And as she was telling the story, she starts it off by saying, look, I'm not very religious. And I'm like, you're not very religious?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You work in the temple? Yeah, every week. I hate to break it to you, compared to literally every other person, pretty religious. Yeah. How often do you go to church? Well, every week. And then I also go to the temple once a week. And then I also volunteer to go to the temple for everybody.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Scriptures every day.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, but I'm not religious at all. I think we have different definitions of religious. I think you just mean you aren't one of those people that speaks down to everybody. Because you go to church. That's not the same thing.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, but anyway. But so, yeah, the majority, I would. To say.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. And so.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

And then occasional spouses that are forced to listen to it, like Mike Thomas or.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, Mike Thomas may be listening against his will, especially the premium content. But if, if he's listening to the premium content, Tammy, is they. They're on a very long.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

They're driving to Arizona to potentially arrested individuals in. In southeastern Idaho.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, yeah. Anyone who's in the back of a cop car, they're listening.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Infants, their mothers.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. Strapped to the back of the. We. We. We got another email. We'll read on our regular podcast from someone from Australia who actually wishes she had more time to strap her kids in the back and force them to listen to the podcast. And I. That's exactly what we're. That's our demographic. Our demographic is. Is. Is apparently Lutherans and people who are forced to listen. It seems like those are the. Those are our real touchstones. But Tetzel, is my whole point in talking about people who are religious is all of you have had the experience, at least most of you have, where you've heard someone describing what it is that you believe to someone else, and every single thing they say is not right. And it is fingernails on the chalkboard to you. Right. Let me give you an example from Richard's life. Richard has a hard time when people confuse area authorities and general authorities. I'm not sure why. This is the hill he decided to die on, but he's dying on it.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Look, first of all, I love area.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Authorities, and I love if any of them are listening.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, sure. Which they're not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But if they are, they signed up for the premium content.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Thank you for your service. Absolutely wonderful. But we were in a ward, and the Area 70 for our ward, the secretary was in our ward. And so the Area 70 came to our ward a pretty decent amount, and it was wonderful.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And he was a great guy. I know who you're talking about. Great guy, great guy, wonderful 70.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But every time there was a counselor in the bishopric that every time he would come, he would be, like, running around with his hair on fire saying, a general authority is coming. A general authority's coming. And I'm like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So he was like. He was like Paul Revere. Well, he was.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

He wanted to make sure the general authorities are coming.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The general. Turn out your militia.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, no, just, you know, look, do we have enough deacons? Do we. Do we have enough people? Is there. Brett, for heaven's sake. Do we have to go? Are we. Are we Becky's brother in New Hampshire? Like, okay, I gotta run the family dollar because we got some spring bread because my house is in. Hour and a half away.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Hypothetically. That's never happened.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's for you, Craig.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, but so, you know, he'd be really excited about it. And I'm like, look, great, Elder. So. And so is great, but just, he's not a general authority. I mean, like, you know, he's an area. He's an area authority. He's fantastic. But he's not the same thing. And so. So sometimes people are quick on that, and it's. It's a problem. It's a problem that I have because I'm so quick to want to correct people on it, that I'm a jerk about it. Well, I mean, even I'm. I'm not meaning to be, but just being so quick to say, all right, let's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard also has a problem when people bear their testimony and close as if they're closing a prayer. Okay.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Now that's legitimate. In the name of thy. And I. And I, you know, I. I went on this vacation and we saw this thing, and I know that the church is true. In the name of thy son. And I'm like, okay, you're not praying. He's not your son.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Right. So that. That is a bug. It is funny every time it happens, and it happens every fast Sunday, two or three times. And it's not. You know, when kids do it, it's like, okay. When adults do it, I'm like, okay, all right. Hey, you know what? Let's have a talk. Let's. Let's talk about it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

And my wife looks at me and she's like, don't say anything. And I'm like, I'm. I'm gonna. I'm.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I think our listeners know from the Pre podcast, I mean, I have some triggers. So when people will say things like, well, we know every single thing happens for a reason. And for me, I'm like, well, actually, like, literally, the church has taught the opposite of that. Like, we have actual prophets and apostles who have said that, no, not every single thing that happens in your life is because you sinned once. Right. But that's how so many people see themselves in relationship to the gospel, to the point where something terrible will happen. And when you talk to them, say, I just. I just don't know what we did to cause this to happen. Well, you chose to come to earth. That. That's the main. The main issue is you came to a horrible place following this plan, and that's why it happened. But there are many Latter Day Saints who. Who believe that. Who believe that they're essentially fatalistic. They believe that every single thing that happens happens because they're either sinning or because God is trying to teach them something directly. And that it's not just, hey, sometimes your steak is tough.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I mean, that's the thing is. I mean, maybe, maybe sometimes that is the case. But to think that every time something bad happen, happens, it's because of your own sinful, terrible nature, you people beat themselves up. We did a two and a half parter on the Prosperity Gospel as. As the idea that, look, the. The Lord blesses us with everything that we have, and sometimes the Lord tries our faith, and sometimes the Lord tested us, and sometimes the frailties of mortality strike and bad things happen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And sometimes you chose to come to a world that has many other people with many other agencies, as well as mosquitoes and earthquakes and landslides and fires, and. And. And there are evil or horrible things that happen that are completely outside of your control. And so the whole point of that little soliloquy there is. It's probably one of the most frustrating things to hear someone tell someone else what it is that your church believes when you know that what they're saying isn't accurate at all. Because you care about what you believe. It matters to you. And. And you want it to be right if you're sharing it with someone else. This is kind of Luther's reaction to Tetzel. Tetzel, like I said, he comes in and he's saying, look, hell is pretty awful. You're all going to go there. By the way, the few of you who aren't going to go to hell, guess where you're going. Purgatory. For like a trillion years. You're all going to Purgatory forever. They'll never get out of Purgatory unless. Unless you buy.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Buy now, by now, it was, I assume, the first timeshare presentation essentially was Purgatory as perhaps.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But so he's got this great line that I'm paraphrasing a bit, but. So, Garrett, correct me, because you want to get it exactly right, because it's just so tremendous. Every time a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs. Boy, that's got a ring to it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

As soon as the coin and the coffer clings, the soul from purgatory springs. Now, of course it was in German. So maybe it was, you know, clink. And, you know, it's probably. It probably was. I mean, every time you hear a German say I love you, you're like, I'm not sure you do, you know, because it's very. It's a very guttural language. I'm saying this as a Dutchman, right? So I. I'm well aware. My name's for crying out loud. But the. The selling point of that, that as soon as the coin and the coffer clings, the soul from purgatory springs, enraged Martin Luther. Because, look, Catholic theology was still. That because you are doing a good work by donating to the cause of building St. Peter's Basilica, the Pope, through the doctrine of supererogation, is now granting you an indulgence to lessen your time in purgatory. You aren't buying less time in purgatory. You are being rewarded for a good work. Except the way that Johan Tetzel was talking about it is, you know what, you're buying your way out of purgatory. Come on down to Honest John Tetzel and we'll get you. We'll get you out of that. Out of that purgatory. We'll get you into adults and be the better adults you've ever had. You come on in, we'll give you the rust oleum treatment on it. You're gonna be at an indulgence. Are you gonna have your family not go get out of a purgatory? No, you gotta get them all out of purgatory. Come on, get the minivan of purgatory.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I mean, it's so. So was a part of. Is it partly the thing that he was saying, certainly this infuriating, but also that it was as successful as it. As it was in generating a tremendous amount of money revenue?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I think both things. So. So for Martin Luther, he feels like you're preying upon these uneducated people. Now, remember, the Bible has not been at least legally or allowed to be translated into any language other than Latin for a thousand years. So do you think that your average German peasant behind a plow speaks Latin? About as many German peasants speak Latin as Americans speak Latin right now. I mean, it's not a language that people speak especially. It's especially difficult for Germans to learn it, because at least if you are living in Spain or in France, it is. You know, those Romance languages are based upon Latin. And so there's at least some comparisons. Nothing in German at all. That's not there. There's nothing romantic about German. I think we've already gotten that across. Icht Liberdig is not. That's not a way to win your lover over. Right? So. So it's. It's. It's. He feels like the. These poor peasants who are already being led astray by all these structures of the Church are being fooled into believing that they in some way are getting salvation from purgatory because they paid money. So it's those two things. It's. First and foremost, it's an affront to the grace of Jesus Christ that you could in any way donate money. And then that covers everything, any sins. But the reason why it's such an affront is because it is convincing so many lay people. And they don't know. They don't know what Luther knows. Because Luther's been reading, you know, he's been educated now in Greek, and he's been reading the early manuscripts, and he's a professor, and he, you know, has studied these writings of Paul. The people hearing Johann Tetzel, the only way they have any of their religious learning is by listening to what the priests teach them. They don't have the ability to read the Bible in Latin. So they go to Mass, they hear what the priest tells them. That's how they develop their religiosity, and that's how it is going forward. So you're right. It is both aspects of it. It is this, the success of it, because it's preying upon the uneducated, and it is the doctrine itself. Both of those things are a big deal. And Luther can't stand it any longer. As Tetzel is in the neighborhood making his pitches and selling numerous indulgences, Luther decides that now is the time to pick up his pen and to write some, well, merely questions, but also some refutations. Luther had a very great way of writing a question as a statement that was telling you exactly what he believed. I get these all the time when I go and do presentations and people ask questions about my presentation, but really it's just a statement. So they raise their hand and they'll say, now we know that Joseph Smith was wrong to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor. Can you talk to us about that? That's. That's not really a question. That's you stating what you think and then, you know, wanting me to address it. And Martin Luther is the king of the question. That's really a statement. He is also an incredibly sarcastic writer when once he decides, you are on the other side, he will inveigh against you. One thing that Martin Luther is not is someone who compromises with anyone over anything. He, it's funny because he does, you know, spoiler alert. When he finally does leave the Catholic Church, one of the first things he does is he gets married because he thinks there's no actual biblical injunction against marriage. So that's all tradition and, you know, kind of self serving in that. But I always think, how did Martin Luther's wife deal with this? Because look, I said I put my coat on the bed. Well, I don't think that you did. I know that I did. Because Martin Luther was never wrong about anything. Which is really surprising then given his, his personality was one of just almost self loathing. Right. He was so aware of his own sinfulness that he was constantly berating himself and yet could not get along with anyone when it came to theological reasons. He believed that what he was preaching was coming from God and there was no way to compromise because there was only one thing that was coming from God. And the indulgence campaign was pretty successful.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It was. So it's always difficult to look at money today and go back in time. You go back 30 years, you can use some sort of inflation calculator, but it's difficult to, especially when you get.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To the modern era and we go off the gold standard and it just becomes like, I think dollars are worth this.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, yeah, so it's difficult to compare this to in the, you know, in the 1500s, but so it's about 500,000 ducats is estimated to have been collected, which translates to around $75 million. But, but it's, but it's going to be way more than that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Purchasing power is gonna be way, way more.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Way, way more.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, and so look, it is successful and it's part of the reason why Martin Luther is so incensed. Now, a way of debating in, in, you know, early modern Germany was to signal your position in a public place by nailing your theses or your position to the wall. The 95 theses are not Luther's declaration that he's no longer a Catholic. They are points of debate. And look, there are debates that go on inside of the Catholic Church all the time. There are debates that go on right now inside the Catholic, Catholic Church, right. From fully orthodox theologians arguing, for instance, how lenient should the church be on people who've had divorces, should they be able to have full sacrament. Right. I mean, you would have a theologian on both sides of that on whether the church should accept them in complete and full fellowship, or whether there should still be a mark because they got a divorce and the Catholic Catholic Church doesn't allow divorce. You'll have two completely orthodox theologians argue both sides of that point within a realm where it's allowable. Inside the church, everyone has this. I mean, inside of our church, you have people making arguments about, you know, what. What the actual breadth of the atonement is on one side and people on the other side, but they're both still agreeing that you're saved by the atonement of Jesus. They're both still agreeing that Joseph Smith's a prophet, or you could even do the translation of the Book of Mormon. Right. There are people who think that the translation happened more by inspiration, and there are people who think that it happened more directly word for word. And they're both considered orthodox faithful members because they still believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. So there are debates that happen inside of Catholicism all the time. It's not in and of itself a excommunicatable offense that Martin Luther nails these theses to the door. But the topic of these theses are points for consideration. They are points of argument broken down. Now, Luther adopts a very kind of almost ingenious, but I mean, it's pretty. It's. It's. You're able to see through it pretty quickly. He doesn't want to be seen as attacking the Pope, so what does he do? He attacks people like Johann Tetzel and others who are perverting the doctrines and addressing how it makes the papacy look. Well, this makes the Pope look like X. Now, that's a way of saying the Pope is doing that. Like this makes it seem like the Pope is just in. Cares about money. Right. So that Luther can at least rhetorically say, I didn't say the Pope only cares about money. I'm saying it makes it look like he only cares about money. And that's a problem. We've got to protect the Pope's honor. So we don't want him to look like he only cares about money. So he's. He's using this kind of rhetorical device that, hey, the way things are being done is making, you know, the emperor look bad. I mean, in some ways, it would be the way a highly partisan, you know, Democrat or Republican today would try to defend their president. Yeah, I just wish that people in the Biden administration were. Were better at their jobs because it's making Biden look like X. Right? What. What's that doing? It's It's a way of diverting blame. Right? It's a way of saying, you know, I just wish, you know, that the Trump State Department was better at X because it makes it look like he doesn't know what he's doing. It's a way of saying, you know, I wish Trump got his people under control so that he didn't look bad. And Martin Luther's doing the same thing. He's trying to use that as a rhetorical device. So let's give you an example of some of these. I'm not going to read all 95 theses. I know that that's what you were waiting for.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That'll be in part two.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Part Martin Luther, all of the 95 theses. So in part, what Luther is arguing, of course, these are translations from German, so they won't sound as beautiful as they were when he wrote them, is Luther thinks that as people are buying indulgences, they need to be taught what the actual doctrine is. Christians should be taught that buying of indulgences is optional and not commanded. Christians should be taught that the Pope, in selling pardons, has more want and more desire of devout prayer than for money. Right. Look, it's great if you buy an indulgence to help build the St. Peter's Basilica, but what I want you most is to be righteous. Right? Not exactly what Johan Tetzel is teaching. No, he's teaching.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It's implied, though.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Where's your money? Where's my money, man? Where's my money? Christians should be taught. Now, again, notice how he's using this as a rhetorical advice, that if the Pope knew the ways and doings of the preachers of indulgences, he would prefer that St. Peter's Basilica should be burned to ashes rather than it should be built up on the skin, flesh and bones of his lambs. Now, that's a pretty biting criticism, but notice how he does it. If he only knew what people like. Johann, of course, the Pope is well aware of what Johan Tesla's raking it in. And Luther, of course, knows that the Pope knows, but it's a way of providing this criticism without actually criticizing. The Holy Father certainly would have a problem with this if he knew about it. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Basically, why doesn't he have a problem with it? Right. Christians should be taught that the Pope, as is his bound duty to do, is indeed willing to give his own money. And should St. Peter's be sold, therefore, to those to whom the preachers of indulgences do most extort money. It is a vain and false thing to hope to be saved through indulgences, though the. The commissary, nay, the Pope himself, was to pledge his own soul. Therefore, those who, on account of a sermon, concern concerning indulgences in one church, condemn the word of God to silence and others are enemies of Christ and of the Pope. Wrong is done to the word of God if in. If in one in the same sermon spends as much or more time as on indulgences as it does the word of God. You can already hear some things that you might even hear throughout your life. Well, how come we're spending so much time, you know, talking about. About ham radios and we didn't even mention Jesus? Right. You can hear some of this here. The treasures of the Church whence the Pope grants his dispensation, are neither sufficiently named nor known among the community of Christ. He's going to go on to say that. I'm going to skip quite a few here, but he's going to go on to say, for instance, the 63rd indulgence or 62nd indulgence. The right and true treasure of the Church is the most holy Gospel and glory of and grace of God. 63 the treasure, however, is deservedly most hateful, for it makes the first to be last. 64 While the treasure of indulgence is deservedly most agreeable, for it makes the last to be first. 65 Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which in times of yore, one fished for men of Mammon. 66 but the treasures of indulgence are nets, with which nowadays one fishes for the mammon of men. Now, notice that rhetorical turn of a phrase there. Getting further into it, he's going to become more radical the further he gets by asking some questions. For instance, Thesis 82. Why does not the Pope deliver all souls at the same time out of purgatory? For the sake of most holy love and on account of the bitterest desire stress of those souls, this being the most imperative of all motives, while he saves an infinite number of souls for the sake of that most miserable thing, money to be spent on St. Peter's Basilica, this being the very slightest of bonus. So he's asked this question. If the Pope has an innumerable amount of merit, is, it's inexhaustible the amount of merit that he can apply at his whim to whoever he wants in purgatory, well, then why doesn't he just give it to everyone in purgatory? Do you realize how it makes the Pope look that he's only giving it to people who pay money for it? Shouldn't he, out of his own good Christian heart, just give it to everybody? That's a pretty good question. It's a good point, right? Yeah. Here's some others. What is this new holiness of God and the Pope that for money's sake, they permit the wicked and the enemy of God to save a pious soul faithful to God and yet will not save the pious and beloved soul without payment, out of love and on account of their. Their great distress? Why does not the Pope. This is 86. This one's direct. Now, the way that Luther has couched all these later theses is if you don't change what you're doing, people will ask these questions. Again, Martin Luther's not saying. I'm not saying I'm asking these questions, but I'm saying that the people seeing what's going on, they will ask these questions. Here's one of the ones they'll ask. Why does not The Pope built St. Peter's Basilica with his own money, since his riches are now more ample than those of Crassus rather than the money of poor Christians. Crassus was one of the triumvirate. Pompey, Caesar and Crassus, back with Julius Caesar. And the way he got his position was he was. Was a billionaire in Rome. He was, he was the, by far the richest, people say, the richest person who ever lived in antiquity, at least at that time. And so he is a. People use him as an example of someone who is incredibly wealthy. Right. That he, someone today might say, well, I mean, it might as well be Bill Gates or something like that. Or, you know, I'm Elon Musk in Luther's time, you. You invoked Crassus to say, the person's not just wealthy, they're ridiculously wealthy beyond any comparison. Or whenever I talk about Richard, I mean, you are listening to the premium, aren't you? Anyway, as he gluts himself, why does the Pope remit or give to those, though through perfect penitence, who through perfect penitence, have already a right to puntery, remission and pardon? So again, if this person is someone who is right before God because they've already gone through the repentance process, why is the Pope granting him some kind of extra legal indulgence? You can see that this is all coming to a head over the ideas of indulgences and purgatory. This is something that Martin Luther has spent a lot of time thinking about how long am I going to be in purgatory because I'm a sinner. So this is. It really is the. It is the. The trigger for Martin Luther, because it's talking about how long someone is going to suffer in purgatory before they're finally allowed into heaven. And Martin Luther had spent his entire adult life asking that question, how do I keep myself out of purgatory? He is going to go on to say that Christians should be exhorted to endeavor to follow Christ their head through the cross, death and hell, and thus hope with confidence to enter heaven through many miseries rather than false security. In fact, part of what Luther is going to argue is people thinking that they're going to heaven because they bought an indulgence are going to see the preacher who sold them that indulgence when neither of them get there. Yeah, yeah. Again, kind of a shot across the bow to old Johann Tetzel. So we didn't quite get to it this week, but what we're going to talk about in the next episode is how this degenerates. What is the reaction to the 95 theses? Is it an immediate excommunication bowl for Luther? What happens to him? And again, what sparks Luther's new theology that will come to inform the entirety of the Protestant Reformation and affect all of us, even to this day. Every Christian you talk to who is not a Catholic, whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not, whether they acknowledge it or not, they are descendants from these points Martin Luther is going to make. And we will make them, hopefully, if we get there the next time. Thanks for listening.

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