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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor. Foreign hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I'm joined by my friend Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [00:46]
B
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. Really excited. Based on the response from Christie's Corner where we re released four hours of of previously released episodes for people to prep for their Sunday school class this week, it's going to be doctrine covenant, section 93, which is a fan favorite.
- [01:11]
A
Well, it's a Garrett favorite. I mean, if you had to pick a revelation, that was the most important revelation Joseph Smith received. Man, like 76 and 93 are in competition with one another. They are the ones that are the most transformative of understanding who we are and why we're here. Now, of course, you know, Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham, you know, coming in on there as well. I mean, there's frankly, there's lots of really amazing stuff that Joseph Smith receives from God. And that's not even counting the translation of the Book of Mormon. I mean, there's all kinds of things that he's got. But Doctrine of government section 93 is, is very important. And so as you study it, I mean, I don't know that you're going to listen to all three of these bonus episodes. My guess is that you're not. No one listened to them in the first place. We released them. Why in the world would someone listen to them now? But there's two parts of this that are just radical Latter Day Saint theology. The first is talking about the nature of who Jesus is and the next is the nature of who we are. And those two things are not the same. They're not the same thing, but they're very related in that revelation doctrine Section 93 is going to teach radical, radical truths that are rejected by essentially every other Christian denomination. So as you, you know, you got to not be a lazy learner on this one. You got to want it. You're going to have to download it and listen to it. But if there's any revelation that's worth your time to not just listen to a barbershop quartet and then a five, five minute rollout, it's Doctrine and Covenant, Section 93, because it is the revelation that's going to teach you who you are and who God is and who Jesus is. And that is, you know, eternal life that they might know thee, the only true God in Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. So I look forward to what people's feedback is after listening to the multiple bonus episodes that they didn't want to listen to and probably still won't.
- [03:51]
B
So over the last two weeks, Christie's Corner has turned into seven hours of bonus content of re released of old stuff.
- [03:59]
A
So yeah, Christie's Corner has turned into Christie's pre planned gated community that has multiple guard posts and video cameras.
- [04:14]
B
Well, so then, so then Garrett, this allows us to jump straight into Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. And this, this first email comes to us from Sydney. The subject is, do not read Dean's email. He's a fraud of a Littner. Also, please announce my pregnancy. Now that's a subject line that we usually don't receive.
- [04:40]
A
Yeah, no, that's. We rarely have competitive emails telling us to not read another person's email. Who's already emailed us that. Yes, that is, that's next level competition.
- [04:54]
B
I believe I did respond to her husband's email here, but we will not read it because she's the one that's pregnant. And my understanding is, is that that trumps whatever the heck her husband has to say.
- [05:06]
A
How do we know that she's actually pregnant, Richard?
- [05:08]
B
Well, because she attached a picture of these.
- [05:14]
A
Of the ultrasound. Yeah, we have an ultrasound that was sent to us. But also what's the other reason?
- [05:22]
B
So she is top 1% according to Spotify, of all Littners, not that it's. She's. That, you know, that she listens to it the most. No. Of anyone that has ever listened to or ever will listen to. If, if all of the books were filled with people that have ever listened. Anyway, she, she's the top 1%.
- [05:43]
A
If all listeners were. And why Sydney, the, the, the. The. The very podcast itself could not be contained. So yeah, she's in the top 1% of all listeners, period. Meaning she listened. Meaning she just plays this on a loop at night. This must be her white noise that she goes to sleep with. Much like our wives.
- [06:09]
B
It's possible that the podcast for a person that's pregnant sometimes that, you know, a person might have unique tastes during their pregnancy. They want pickles and peanut butter ice cream or something like that. And I think our podcast is the equivalent of pickles and peanut butter ice cream. And that after she Gives birth. She will. She will wane.
- [06:30]
A
Well, that makes sense because it sounds like she has several kids. And so we've just been. Our podcast has been riding the coattails of her repeated pregnancies.
- [06:39]
B
Yes. Well, Sydney, we appreciate you as you continue to bring spirits into this world.
- [06:46]
A
I'm sure that. I'm sure that Dean loves to play board games with Sydney. She's not competitive at all.
- [06:54]
B
Not at all. And we will never read Dean's email on the.
- [06:57]
A
Well, I'm afraid to now, but. Yeah, but let's read Sydney's.
- [07:01]
B
Yes, I've had this email composed in my head for weeks, but after my husband, Dean, who started listening to you after me. That's in all caps, by the way.
- [07:09]
A
That's all caps.
- [07:09]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, she's. I mean, this email. First of all, we. Sydney, we love you. First of all. Second of all, the. The capitalization that you have in multiple spaces, you're one step away from cutting out parts of magazines and.
- [07:29]
A
Yeah, it's going to look like a ransom Note from a 60s TV show from.
- [07:37]
B
From a Colombo.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, do it or else. Yeah.
- [07:43]
B
Who started to. Started listening to you after me had the audacity to email you, and I cannot let that stand. And he also just said Richard emailed him back.
- [07:54]
A
Oh, Richard, did he? That's what triggered it. This is your fault.
- [07:57]
B
I know, I know. We received.
- [07:59]
A
Folks, if we don't email you back, please, please, please know. We read every email, but there are hundreds of them. I mean, there are literally thousands of them. But we'll get like a hundred emails from missionaries in four or five days, and it's impossible to respond to all of them because we have families. And as bad of fathers as we are, we would somehow be worse. And we're employees, and as bad of employees as we are, we would somehow be worse.
- [08:39]
B
It's true. I. I can't remember. I can't remember off the top of my head, the response I did. I was joking with Garrett before we were talking, before we started recording that I was going through and. And I was adding all the missionaries and going through all the emails and whatever, and somebody wrote like a really thoughtful, really funny, really spiritual email. But it was. It was fairly. It was decently long. And at the very end, there was like kind of a PS of what's the over under on temples that will be announced at general conference. And so this really kind and thoughtful email, and my Response was only 14.5. That's all I said.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah, just cut to the chase. Yep.
- [09:18]
B
Yeah. All right, so.
- [09:19]
A
So back to Sydney's email.
- [09:21]
B
Yes. And he also just said that Richard emailed him back. And by the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, I cannot abide this.
- [09:28]
A
Oh, now that's an epithet. That's funny.
- [09:30]
B
That's funny. By the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, I cannot abide this. Joseph, he was a merciful man. Yeah, but I. Guadalupe Hidalgo, I will not. So, Dean, her husband is not a true fan. Not like I am. See the attachment? That's what she did.
- [09:47]
A
She sent a picture of her top 1% of listeners.
- [09:50]
B
Yes. Yes, I'm in the top 1% of litters according to Amazon Music for the month of July. I am also a premium subscriber. So this data doesn't even take into account the number of hours I've spent listening to you through Spotify. Dean doesn't listen through. Doesn't listen through Amazon. And he's not even a premium subscriber. And heaven forbid to share.
- [10:13]
A
Are you not. Are you not willing to, like, let him listen to your Spotify?
- [10:18]
B
Funny. That's really, really funny.
- [10:22]
A
So she has a premium Spotify, but doesn't let him listen to it. This is mine. I'll have this for me.
- [10:31]
B
Last December, I got hired at the local library. I love my job, but it means missing out on the Come follow me family study every Sunday afternoon. I was already dreading come follow me this year because church history seemed big and scary. I just didn't want to open that can of worms. I made the decision to start listening to church and scripture podcasts during work hours, shelving books in order to offset losing family study. Well, I've Pavlov'd myself. She's got several turns of phrase that are very funny.
- [11:06]
A
She might work at a library, but she could be writing the books in that place.
- [11:10]
B
Yeah, she's very, very funny. Now I cannot start shelving books without craving sporting bets or raving against fornicating fornicators.
- [11:19]
A
That's.
- [11:19]
B
The fornicating fornicator was falastis. Or was it someone else?
- [11:23]
A
I'm pretty sure I said John C. Bennett, Bothus Hurlba, and John c. Bennett. William McClellan regularly had me say negative things about.
- [11:36]
B
I've gone through all of Joseph Smith and the Restoration. Most of condemned to repeat it. And I'm just finishing up season four of the free content. It's been hilarious to bounce between the free and premium and hear the dual timelines. For a while, Free Richard was taking or was talking about sending his son out on a mission while simultaneously Premium Richard was Discussing that son's coming home. Premium. Premium Richard has been a doctor for quite some time, but I'm still waiting for the day Free Richard gets his new title. It's very funny.
- [12:11]
A
I like thinking of you as Premium Richard, but you know who doesn't want to think of you as Premium Richard? Becky. When she thinks about that non epidural.
- [12:23]
B
From last, from last week. Yeah, she, she handled it like a champ for a husband who dropped the ball as badly I did. She doesn't bring it up. Only occasionally, only when prompted. And even then she, she handles it all like a pro. I swear it was a clerical error by the hospital in season four. You also did mention you're now in the business of announcing pregnancies. I cannot say I'm in labor, nor do I plan to be in labor for 7ish more months. But I do hope to be the first formally announced pregnancy on this mighty podcast. As you Prepare for baby 4. We have been looking to this podcast for name inspiration. Flasus Hurlbut and Bill are right right now. Garrett Genreth in Garth.
- [13:11]
A
Oh, wow.
- [13:13]
B
I've been suggested. Unfortunately, Richard is out for nicknaming reasons. Yes, I can imagine. I, I discovered the nickname for Richard in fourth grade. Somebody explained to me what the, what the nickname was. I didn't believe them. And, and the.
- [13:31]
A
My teacher verified you knew more about the Nixon administration. I think you would have been. I feel like that's a fail on your parents.
- [13:41]
B
When I was nine.
- [13:43]
A
Yeah, I knew all about Nixon by the time I was nine.
- [13:47]
B
Well, your dad, your dad, you know, he was upset by the whole Watergate scandal.
- [13:52]
A
My mom was very upset.
- [13:54]
B
Oh, your Democrat mom.
- [13:56]
A
Remember she had Hubert come speak at byu.
- [14:00]
B
I bet she's like, of course, of course, course, Tricky Dicky was doing that. And yeah, for nickname reasons, he can appreciate. I can. By the way, I have offered my children a significant amount of money if any of them name any of my grandchildren. Richard and my wife is against it. My kids are also against it. Their wives, who they haven't yet met are going to be against it.
- [14:24]
A
No, they're already against it. They already have to accept the fact that, that for some odd reason, for the rest of their life, after they get married, people are going to call them Deluci, even though the D isn't first. It's one of the craziest things there is is Deluci.
- [14:43]
B
You hear it all the time. You've heard it all the time, right?
- [14:47]
A
I hear it all the time. Not only that, for I don't know. It was probably a two year period. Becky was sending us screenshots of the message she was getting from the attendance clerk at the school saying that your daughter was not there and not one of them was accurately spelled. It was unbelievable how bad it was.
- [15:13]
B
Yeah, it was bad.
- [15:15]
A
One was Duloc. One was. Was. One was with Duchy. I mean it was. And you're thinking you're the attendant secretary. Like don't you literally have her name in front of you? That's why you're making the call.
- [15:31]
B
It's right there. It's right there.
- [15:33]
A
The whole reason you're sending the email is you just got a paper on it with her name that says you need to let them know she's not here.
- [15:42]
B
It's one of the things that. I mean. So Angie goes from Einen to Dirkmod. Inen.
- [15:50]
A
And Inen was very Welsh. It was E, Y, N, O, N.
- [15:55]
B
That had to get slaughtered. Right.
- [15:56]
A
No. If people said. Anyone. People said, you know. You know, just all kinds of stuff.
- [16:01]
B
Right. So. But Inan to Dirkmot. It's a step down. But it's not such a large step.
- [16:07]
A
It's more step down because of the spouse than it is the name.
- [16:11]
B
Right. So. But poor Becky goes from Wilson.
- [16:16]
A
Yeah.
- [16:16]
B
The Duke.
- [16:17]
A
She never once had to spell it.
- [16:19]
B
No, never.
- [16:20]
A
Never. One time. I mean the biggest question she ever got was do you go by Becky or Rebecca? That's probably the biggest question.
- [16:28]
B
Well. And it's not like. It's not like Nelson or Larson where there's occasional ease at the end.
- [16:34]
A
Any Wilson who hasn't who has an E at the end that.
- [16:37]
B
Get out of here.
- [16:38]
A
Get out of here. Malefactor.
- [16:42]
B
Anyway. But perhaps Dr. As a first name in homage to him and not many and not any liars of the same.
- [16:50]
A
You wouldn't want to name him after Dr. Hobart. But go ahead.
- [16:53]
B
No, no. Should be naming them after us. Very different. All joking aside. My apologies to Rex's elder Scorm President. I want to. That's a. That's nice. We haven't mentioned. I love Rex's Elder Scorn President. One of our favorite littners. Hopefully he's still listening.
- [17:08]
A
There's no way he's still listening. Rex's elders Corn President. If you're out there.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah. I want to thank you for the work you've done. You're like a dad. Shining your flashlight under the bed and in the closet to prove that there is no boogeyman lying in wait to snatch us up. That's. That's Quite the great analogy. That's a great analogy. Church history is nothing to be scared of. Thank you for the work you do to strengthen testimonies and keep us laughing. We hope to join a tour someday. With all the filthy lucre I get from the public library and four kids under eight, I will likely be long after Garrett willingly discusses polygamy. By the way, Sydney, we've. Garrett and I have both been where you are, and we wish you. We wish you well. And as Trace Atkins says, you're gonna miss this, which is a lie because it's just, you know, that's not true.
- [18:02]
A
Yeah, it is a. It is a tough thing to have four kids under eight. And I. I don't know when exactly how old your. Your. Your seven year old is, but you might have five kids under eight. Sounds like if you're already. If you are pregnant. So we did that.
- [18:22]
B
We had five kids eight and under, and it was. It was an absolute blast. But I will say the reason why I don't believe in the. You'll miss this. It's just. It's fun all the. All the while. Like, it's like I don't look back longingly because I enjoy. I mean, our. Our adult kids are a blast. They're hilarious. Anyway, my type A self yearns for an index list of episodes. Should you ever open an unpaid internship for this, I would love to apply.
- [18:50]
A
Well, first of all, if we ever open an internship, it will of necessity be unpaid.
- [18:56]
B
So, like, that goes without saying.
- [18:59]
A
The same thing as saying, do you have an internship?
- [19:03]
B
It's unpaid. Sincerely, Sydney and Fetus. So thank you, Sidney. We sure appreciate your.
- [19:11]
A
So you're willing to read the fetus's email but not your husband's? I see. That's.
- [19:18]
B
Dean can go to the Horned One. We're not going to read his email at all.
- [19:22]
A
That's funny.
- [19:22]
B
This email comes to us from Dallin. Dear Dr. Dirkmod and Dr. Leduc, this is my first time writing into a podcast, or any podcast for that matter. I know your time is valuable, so I'll cut to the chase. I was recently approached by an associate whom I will call Brother Cage, who believes that there may be hidden treasure map on the back of one of the early church documents currently housed in the church archives. When I asked how he knew this, he simply said he had experience with hidden maps on the back of priceless historical documents. This seemed credible enough to me, so I offered my assistance. Brother Cage then asked if I knew any church historians who could help our overly Elaborate plan to acquire said documents from the Church's heavily guarded vault. I told him I knew of two historians. Well, one historian and his trusty sidekick. That's. That's offensive, because I view you more as. More than a trusty sidekick.
- [20:13]
A
Yeah, I mean, I feel like. I feel like I'm almost a co host.
- [20:17]
B
Almost. So I mentioned you both. Given your experience with the archives, Dr. Dirkmod, I figured you'd be a perfect person to get us on the inside. Brother Cage isn't sure that the map might lead us to Moron Ice cave. The stolen 116 pages. The definitive answer to all polygamy questions. But there is only one way to find out. So are you in, Richard? I'm assuming you're already in. Which I am. Absolutely.
- [20:40]
A
Yeah. Richard. Richard. You had Richard at hello.
- [20:43]
B
You absolutely did. You had me at the.
- [20:45]
A
He's always hello, Garrett. You always have Richard at hello, Garrett.
- [20:50]
B
The ball is in your court. But on a more serious note, speaking of the treasures, did Joseph Smith or any other church leader ever comment on what they believed were written in this sealed portion of the gold plates? And did they ever say when we might actually get to read it? Thanks for sharing both of your knowledge and humor through the podcast. Keep it up.
- [21:10]
A
Okay, so this is a good question. You know, what's on the. What's on the plates? I mean, obviously, he's making fun of National Treasure there. He did ask in a. P.S. have you. When you've handled original church documents, have you ever flipped them over just to check for treasure maps? I'll tell you what, there is a reality that sometimes you have to flip documents over so that you can see what was originally written on the other side because of some problem on the other side. But the closest thing to that is when I worked with the fragment of the papyrus scrolls, the fragments. And one of those fragments, the way that they. They strengthened it was they used, you know, some old discarded paper, and they pasted the papyrus fragment to this discarded paper. Now, this used discarded paper just so happened to be the original plans for the Kirtland Temple. And so, yes, legitimately, I had to turn the papyrus scroll fragment that we have upside down so that I could see what the original Kirtland temple plans looked like because they had pasted it over. And, you know, that's pretty cool, though. I mean, that's part of the Abraham Papyrus is pasted to the Kirtland temple plans. You're not able to just like, you know what? Let me just get some remover, and I'LL get those unstuck because there's no way to separate them without destroying these, you know, in one case, thousands of year old, you know, document. And so there is, there is that. But as far as the sealed portion, it's a good question. You know, it comes up. It's actually a favorite haunt of modern day apostates. A lot of modern day apostates love to say that they've brought forth some of the sealed portion. But, you know, we actually get most of our explanation about what's in the sealed portion from the Book of Mormon itself. And that's, you know, you get that from, you know, Ether chapter four. That's verse four. I've written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw. And there never were greater things made manifest than those things which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared. So whatever he sees is greater than anything that's ever been made manifest. Wherefore the Lord have commanded me to write them, and I've written them, and he commanded me that I should seal them up. And he also commanded me that I should seal up the interpretation thereof. Therefore I've sealed up the interpreters according to the commandment of the Lord. So Moroni apparently knows exactly what's on the sealed portion. And you know, ether obviously knows it. And it's this description of, you know, how great a thing I mean, he saw. I mean, Ether chapter three tells you that when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be, and he withheld them not from his side, even to the ends of the earth. So one of the things that's on it is the brother of Jared seeing the entire history of the world. And that, you know, that's pretty epic, right? So he knows exactly what's going. I mean, I mean, I even hesitate to say this, but if Biff Tannen had gotten a hold. Oh my gosh, if he'd gotten a hold of the sealed portion, imagine how many bets he would be making.
- [25:12]
B
Do you think that that was part of. I mean, it's part of the history, right? Who's going to win super bowl one?
- [25:19]
A
I mean, I don't know that that's what the brother of Jared is, right?
- [25:23]
B
Jared is watching the Fever versus the Aces in there in a WNBA 2025 summer season. That's hilarious.
- [25:33]
A
Apparently shown everything, the entire history of the world. And so you can imagine that that, that's pretty important. I mean, the. When the plates are talked about in Second Nephi. You get something similar, right? Second Nephi 27, verse 10. The words which are sealed, he shall not deliver. So this is, this is this prophecy of the person who's going to get the plates named Joseph, who's going to translate them. But the words which are sealed, he shall not deliver, neither shall he deliver the book. For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book. And now part of the question was, when are we going to get that? Until the own due time of the Lord that they may come forth. For behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof. And the day cometh. The words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the housetops, and they shall be read by the power of Christ. And all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and whichever will be unto the end of the earth. So, you know, with that there's multiple statements that these aren't going to. They aren't going to come forth until people have repented of their iniquity. You know, you know, Elder McConkie said that, you know, we weren't going to receive them until, you know, the millennium, essentially. So I don't know what's on them specifically, but I certainly know that at least part of what is on them is that vision that the brother of Jared saw and that they are kept from us, it appears, until. Until we are closer to the second coming of the Lord or after the second coming of the Lord, in part because it does include the history of the whole world from its beginning to its end. That's.
- [27:42]
B
That's great. Let me go to the last email here. This comes to us from Nathan. This question comes from my girlfriend who is serving in the Pittsburgh, Leon, Pennsylvania, France mission. By the way, Lyon, France is where the Jean Baptiste Leduc and the great Le Ducs came from to receive their acre in Montreal when all of Canada had 2,500 people living in it.
- [28:11]
A
I see. Yeah. And literally nothing but acreage. I mean, nothing.
- [28:15]
B
And we had one acre.
- [28:17]
A
It is stunning to me, almost like it's like your great, great, great grandfather deliberately didn't want more than one acre.
- [28:27]
B
Well, I mean, he came from Lyon, France. So when I see this, my heart goes out to his girlfriend who is serving in what I can only imagine is a high baptizing mission in France.
- [28:37]
A
Like all French missions.
- [28:39]
B
Well, so with the immigration, though, it's actually pretty Sweet. France and Spain have that in common. I think they get a lot of African or South American immigrants. And ironically, the French and the Spanish brought Christianity to Africa and to South America. But then they're bringing it back to France because I think they've forgotten some of that. But anyway, I go on. As far as I know, there are only two places we really learn about what happened to the plates after the translation. Joseph Smith, History 1:59 60 mentions that Moroni will ask for the plates back. And Brigham Young went on a big rant about a cave and a hill in Camorra in 1877. Are there any sources to back up Brigham Young's claim? Are there any contemporary sources around 1820? Look at him using contemporary sources.
- [29:30]
A
Yeah, isn't that amazing?
- [29:32]
B
Nice job. You're killing it, Nathan. Nice work. Also, if you wouldn't mind sending the Google Drive to my girlfriend, that'd be awesome. And we did. So, genraf, if you can help us find Brigham Young's about the hill, Cumorah and opening up and all of the plates.
- [29:52]
A
So Joseph, you know, delivers the plates back to the angel, right? So in fact, the angel seems to take charge of them several times while Joseph has them. Right? So, I mean, yeah, you know, hey, where are the 116 pages, Joseph? You know, the next thing you know, actually the angel takes the plates literally because Joseph asked. The angel takes the plates because the Lord said no. And Joseph asked again, and then asked again, and then sends the pages off with Martin Harris, and then the angel takes the plates because of that. But Joseph is going to say that he delivers the plates back to the angel. And that's also what Brigham Young is going to say. I mean, he's going to say something similar along with the seer stones, the Urim and Thummim stones that were found with the plates. Joseph put the Urim and Thummim with the plates when he had done translating them. You know, that's one of the things that Brigham Young says in 1853. The reference that you're making to the cave, that's actually a reference to. Brigham Young is the one who popularizes this. But it's actually multiple people who talk about this. Maybe we'll just go to the Brigham Young quote itself, because this is probably where it's coming from. I lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated. So this is Brigham Young giving a sermon. The reason why so many people are familiar with it is it's in the Journal of Discourses it's an 1877, June 17, 1877 sermon. This is, you know, getting nigh on to the end of Brigham Young's life. But he talks about the plates and this experience which he says he heard from Oliver Cowdery. Okay, so this is not Brigham's experience. This is Oliver Cowdery relating it to Brigham. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, but he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take, I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some of the things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family. Oliver Cowdery went with the prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all the plates. There was a portion of them that was sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened and they walked into a cave in which there was a large and spacious room. He said he did not think at the time whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was light as day. They laid the plates on the table. It was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table, there was a pile of plates. I can only assume it's the same table that the angel pulled out from under the stage and brought to the three witnesses, right?
- [33:55]
B
I would assume so.
- [33:56]
A
Well, I don't know what his building, what his budget is. His facility's budget is.
- [34:01]
B
It could be the table similar to the table that Mormon is leaning on in the picture where he's sitting on the leopards.
- [34:08]
A
Yeah. Maybe the table's been passed down the same way.
- [34:10]
B
It might be. It's an heirloom.
- [34:14]
A
Here's the table. It was a large table, student room. Under this table, there was a pile of plates as much as 2ft high. And there were altogether, in this room, more plates than probably many wagon loads. They were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went, there was the sword of Laban hung on the wall. But when they went again, it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates. So apparently there's two of these experiences it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words. This sword shall never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ. I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day. And by and by, we go our separate ways. So that's why this. This story is so much in the lexicon. But. But Brigham is right. It's not just him. I mean, he's telling that story in 1877, but, you know, he actually has repeated it multiple times before that. In. In Wilford Woodruff's journal, he talks directly about. About Brigham Young saying this. President Young. So this is Brigham Young's Journal of 1869. Okay, so. So this is eight years before the Journal of Discourses sermon. Wilford Woodruff's Journal, December 11, 1869. President Young said in relation to Joseph Smith returning the plates of the Book of Mormon, that he did not return them to the box from where he had received them, but he went to a. In a cave in the Hill Cumorah Comoro is what's written. Okay, it says Hill cumoro. It's not an H. It's. It's C O, M O, R O.
- [36:17]
B
So they have like a. Like a. Almost like a firebird, you know, like a Camaro.
- [36:21]
A
Yeah, I feel like that's what Wilford Woodruff was trying to say. He was trying to say, I haven't read the sealed portion, but I'm pretty sure we know there's going to be a Camaro. Guys, you're gonna love this.
- [36:33]
B
You're gonna kill it in the 70s and 80s with this.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah, this is gonna be great. When. When. When that light goes green, you're gonna be. You're gonna be all kinds of excited.
- [36:42]
B
Wilford Woodruff said when that light goes green. Yeah.
- [36:46]
A
I'm telling you, here at the Standard Truth Podcast, we're opposed to street racing. I want everyone to know that. Do it. You know, my dad, you know, he's passed away more than a decade now, and, boy, he loved the show American Graffiti. I mean, loved it. He watched it all the time and always wanted us to watch it, and just. He just. He loved it. The guy was reliving his youth by watching American Graffiti. So, I mean, I can only imagine. So he went in the Hill Cumoro with Oliver Cowdery and deposited those plates upon a table or shelf in that room. There were deposited a Large amount of gold plates containing sacred records. And when they first visited the room, the sword of Laban was hanging on the wall. And when they last visited, the sword was drawn from the scabbard. And I'm not. I think he means to say it says Lou. It was Lou upon the table. And a messenger who was the keeper of the room. So instead of the words being on. On the sword, the messenger was the keeper of the room, informed them that the sword would never be returned to its scabbard. So there's. So the angel's there until the kingdom of God was established on the earth and until it reigned triumphant over every enemy. Joseph Smith said that the cave contained tons of choice treasures and records. So you have Brigham Young again talking about it in these other places. What's interesting is that David Whitmer also talks about a cave where the plates are delivered back up, but with a slightly different explanation. He says, you know, he's asked, of course, by the person interviewing him, you know, where are the plates now? And David Whitman. So this is 1878. This is an 1878 interview in a cave where the angel has hidden them up until the time arrives when the plates which are sealed shall shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again. Where is that cave, David Whitmer? In the state of New York, in the hill, Cumorah? The interviewer asks. No, but not far away from that place. So now you kind of have. Well, wait a minute. Where exactly is this? Interestingly, one of our earliest accounts of this says something a little bit different. One of our earliest accounts actually comes from Heber C. Kimball, and he says that, you know, he's talking about some of the struggles that folks have had crossing the plains. How does it compare with the vision that Joseph and others had when they went into a cave in the hill, Cumorah, and saw more records than ten men could carry? So you notice Heber C. Kimball can't be getting his information from Brigham Young, giving it as a sermon, because Brigham Young's sermons are after this time period. This is 1856. The ones I just read to you were 1867. And. And, sorry, 1869 and 1877. So that doesn't mean Brigham wasn't talking about it, but it does mean Heber C. Kimball is talking about this even earlier. You know, more than a decade earlier. Anyway, he says when they went into the cave in the Okamor, they saw more records than ten men could carry. There were books piled upon the tables, book upon book. Those records this people will have yet if they accept the Book of Mormon and observe its precepts and keep the commandments. So you get this information, and again, it appears to be coming from Oliver Cowdery and at least in a later source, Joseph Smith Sr. Talking about it, that they see all of these records. But you also have Heber C. Kimball there saying that it was a vision. You notice Brigham Young says something similar in his sermon. Okay. They go to deposit the plates, and all of a sudden they're in a cave. And they don't know how they got there, but they can see like it's daylight. Now, if you've ever been in a cave, you'll know that you can't see like, it's daylight. So there is something supernatural going on. We have to at least admit that. That even if it literally is a cave and they somehow go inside it, how they get into the cave appears to be miraculous. And how the cave is lit up also appears to be miraculous. And the fact that at least some of these sources, an angel is there with them in the cave, also miraculous. So I know that people like. Do you think if we, like, dug out the entire center of the Hill Cumorah, that we'd be able to find those other records? I think you'd have the same chance of succeeding at that as all of the people that were digging all over Hill Cumorah when Joseph said plates were up there. The chance that they had finding. You know, it's interesting. Brigham Young. Actually, I wasn't planning on talking about this, because obviously we're way over time, and this is something that no one cares. So before.
- [43:06]
B
Before you go into that, just real quickly, on American Graffiti, if American Graffiti was made today, what year do you think it would be? Because it was made in the 70s. So what year would it be depicting if it was made today?
- [43:24]
A
So if it was made today, it would be, like, showing what 1998 was like or something like that.
- [43:32]
B
2014, it was made in 73 and depicting a summer in 62. Crazy, though. Anyway.
- [43:39]
A
Wow. 62 seems a little later. Yeah, right. Like 55.
- [43:44]
B
I know, I know. But anyway, so that's. That's.
- [43:47]
A
I think we all have 1955 on the brain because of. Because of Back to the Future always.
- [43:53]
B
I have it always on brain.
- [43:54]
A
And I know more about 1955 than any other 50s date solely because of Marty McFly.
- [44:02]
B
I can't believe they tore down and. And turned that into a whole park. A Whole shopping mall can't believe they did it.
- [44:09]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:11]
B
The twin. Whatever the hecks.
- [44:13]
A
The Twin Pines Mall.
- [44:16]
B
I had that fact on. On. I was just hoping you were going to bring up American American Graffiti because I did a bunch of research on American Graffiti before this podcast. I'm really glad you brought it up.
- [44:26]
A
You know, I. I come in every week saying, you know what could I bring up that Richard will have already researched?
- [44:36]
B
You did it. You did. You always do it.
- [44:39]
A
Yep, I came through. No, the Brigham Young commentary that I was thinking about was he talks about how even before he was a member, that. Because he lived fairly close to where Palmyra was.
- [44:59]
B
Yeah.
- [45:00]
A
That he remembers having people talk about trying to find the plates on the hill, but they can't find them. You know, that they're looking for the plates. I mean, so Brigham Young says in. In one of these sermons that. And this is a. This is a pretty rough sermon because it's from the shorthand. And so it's not, you know, it's. It's going to be rough. It's going to sound like I'm having a stroke as I read this, because most of the words are missing. So. So it's going to be very similar to everything else I've ever shared on the podcast. Actually. I don't even know why I gave a disclaimer. He says, I knew one astrologer, I heard him say when Joseph was looking for the Book of Mormon, that they was in the hill and a number of men knew that there was treasure there. And old Father Beaman, a Baptist minister, and several others sent down to the town close to where I lived, he went up there three times to see if they could not get that treasure. This was before Father Beaman was acquainted with Joseph, but knew that Joseph had said that there was a treasure there and expected to get it sent for this astrologer. He was the smartest one ever. I saw something walk to put them together. More wisdom in his little finger than all the astrologers here. I saw that man. He went up the last time there he there the last time he goes the 1st of September, a few days before Joseph got the place and he came into David Smith's store. I was there. He came in and he was the greatest swearer I ever heard. A man of great learning being educated America and sent to France and Italy. And he'd received his education, a man could become a priest and turned out to be a devil. He commenced swearing about this and damned him and said, I believe he will get that treasure, and I can't get it. And they flee away from me. And this is the third time that I've been there, and I can't get to the spot. I can't get to it. And one man by the. By the name of White boarded with a Presbyterian priest. And this White had two daughters. In the conversation with this man, I recollect, and White made the observation that this man thought that he was intruding upon his dignity. And when he was considerable, a gentleman, it made him, the man, angry. And he said, Mr. White, you need not put in your talk here and told them what he was, says he, I will inform you of another thing. You've got a living priest, people worship. And one of your daughters is going to have a young one by one of her gentlemen, just you wait and see. I know all about this. This is astrology I'm speaking about. You go to him, no matter who, and say, I want to see and talk to you and stop plowing and sit down and talk with him. And he would commence telling you his name and where he was born and how old he was. So, you know, Brigham's, you know, obviously not endorsing this. What he's saying is that there's evil, you know, work about. The point is he actually tells the story a couple of times that there are people actively digging on the hill Cumorah, actively searching and employing an astrologer who they think will have the ability to find it, and they're not able to find it. And apparently it leads to a swearing tirade and telling a Presbyterian minister that his daughter's going to have a child out of wedlock. I feel like that's not exactly where you should go with your anger.
- [49:12]
B
But wait, was she a Sagittarius, though?
- [49:16]
A
Oh, I see now you're. I see now you know, that exactly how it would be the case. So my point in sharing that story is lots of people, even using the power of the adversary, tried to find the plates. They weren't able to find them because God is the person who determines whether or not you have access to. To the sacred plates. The same way no one found those plates for 1400 years. No one found the plates even when they knew where to look because it was God who was determining who would have the plates. So when people say, well, do you think they're really there inside the hill Cumorah? I don't know. Clearly what happens with Joseph and Oliver is some kind of visionary experience. And certainly that's how Heber C. Kimball calls a vision. Certainly the fact that there's light in the cave is a visionary experience. Certainly the fact there's an angel there. I know people who are certain that if you were to dig to the center of the hill Cumorah, you'd find this cave and you'd find all the plates, and they're certain about it. And it's a stronger part of their testimony than, you know. You know, whether or not, you know, the priesthood was restored. Basically, it's a big deal to them. I don't know. And I don't know because I can't know. I don't know if that's the case. Now, I can tell you, geologically speaking, you know, that the hill Cumorah is a glacial drumlin, which means it's essentially impossible for it to have a cave because it's just dirt and rocks that rode a glacier down from Canada, probably right past Richard's great great grandfather's acre, and eventually melted there. And that's where the hill comes from.
- [51:29]
B
Do you think it's possible that some of the plates were deposited in that acre and that's why there was only an acre? You never thought about that before?
- [51:35]
A
You know, the vision could have taken. The vision could have taken them anywhere.
- [51:39]
B
Could have.
- [51:41]
A
Your great, great great grandfather might be more important than you think he is.
- [51:47]
B
I think he's.
- [51:48]
A
I don't know how important you think he is, but sure, he's a lovely.
- [51:50]
B
Gentleman, but less, probably less. Much less.
- [51:53]
A
At any rate, you know, that's where that comes from. Of course, I think there are more plates. You know where they are. I think it's very clear just by Mormon's explanation of what he's doing is that there are lots of records. There's apparently enough records that after he's written half of his book, he searches the records and finds the. The small plates of Nephi. Like they're undoubtedly many wreckers. Where they are, I don't know. I know you'll find all kinds of people that are more than willing to tell you exactly where they are, but I think we have to deal with things in terms of what do prophets think we need to know about them? Clearly, those prophets and apostles thought we needed to know that that vision or that experience took place and that there certainly were more records. Whether you could get an excavator and dig to the center of the hill Cumorah and find it, I find that almost impossible to believe, because I believe God protects those records, and only those that God wants to have them will have them. And maybe as David Whitmer said, it's not even in the hill Cumorah, but it's in a nearby hill and they were on their way to the hill Cumorah, and that's when it happened. I don't know. I know that there's other records, they'll eventually come forth, but I do think it's always good to pause and stop and say when people struggle with their testimonies, when this world starts to get to them, it is never because we just don't have the sealed portion or because we just don't have the lost 116 pages or if only we had more of those writings that, you know, the hundredth part that Mormon couldn't include, the 99th part of the hundredth that he couldn't include, it's that people aren't embracing the Book of Mormon that we have. God has promised that he will give greater light and knowledge to us, and I think that is true. But he's not going to give greater light and knowledge when we aren't even using the sources we already have. I am stunned when I meet with people who have lots of questions about church history and they have not read one word, not one word of the Saints volumes, not one word. And what's driving their concern is church history questions. Well, the church spent ridiculous amounts of money and man hours putting together an accessible, easy to read history. And, and that wasn't enough for someone to get engaged. I, I, it kind of makes me think about, you know, Brigham Young talking about, you know, the whole time, especially during the American Civil War, lots of people like Brigham are about, is it, is it time? Is it, is it go time on Idol? Are we, are we on our way back to, to Jackson County? And Brigham Young kept having to reiterate over and over and over again, you aren't ready for the second coming. You aren't ready to go to Zion. You're still lying to each other, people are still fornicating, you're still drinking whiskey in order to plow your field. You guys want more and you haven't even done what you could do with what you have. And I think there is a danger that's associated with this. People think that if they had a greater experience, a powerful experience, that that would change them and they would believe. It's almost like asking to see the plates. If I saw the plates, then I would believe I have something that came to my mind. I know Richard's mad because we're supposed to be done a long time ago. I'm sorry, Richard. You're just gonna have to be angry. But when Wilford Woodruff joined the church, his parents did not. Okay, now you might be thinking, no, wait. I'm pretty sure his parents were members of the church. They were members of the church eventually. And I don't mean eventually like, you know, because we got him in a St. George baptistry, you know, proxy wise. I mean, they eventually joined the church, but in 1834, his parents are writing to him. And to say that they are skeptical of Mormonism is an understatement. They think their son has been deceived. They think Joseph is a false prophet. And they think that Wilford is being led astray. And so Wilford writes them a letter. And I can't read the whole letter because, like his journals, it is lengthy. But I want to read a portion of it because it talks about this very thing, about seeing the plates as part of it. He says, let's see here. I feel to rejoice to behold the candor which you manifest in your letter to me informing your opinion respecting the work in which I've engaged. Dear parents, I do not wonder, neither should I think it strange, if you did believe me to have embraced grossness of late. Even walking in paths would lead me to ruin and destruction. When I consider the report which is abroad in the land respecting the church of Christ, where of the Latter Day Saints, which is called by the world Mormons. When John came neither eating nor drinking, they said he had a devil. The son of man came eating and drinking, they said, behold, a gluttonous wine bibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. And there is in the last days of all manner of evil spoken against the servants of God falsely. So look, he's using the example from the New Testament. Look. For people who are critical, they can't actually be satisfied. John didn't eat or drink. Oh, he must be possessed. Jesus came eating and drinking. Well, look at him. He's a wine bibber. Allow me to ask you one question. Who is a proper judge of the work in which I've engaged in and of the character of Joseph Smith and of the revelations which have come through him, and of the members of the church and of the laws of the church are the same. And those who are an eyewitness and personally acquainted with those things? Is it those who are an eyewitness and personally acquainted with those things or those who are not? I believe that I have had the privilege of becoming sufficiently acquainted with the work in which I'VE engaged and also with the character of Joseph Smith and of the revelations which have come through him in order to know whether these things are from the Lord and the kingdom of light or from the devil and the kingdom of darkness. I have traveled nearly 1,000 miles in company with Joseph Smith and I believe him to be a man of truth, a man of God, yea, a prophet which the Lord has raised up in these last days. And I believe that he holds the keys of the kingdom as Peter in the days of the apostles. I have heard his teachings, and if I'm acquainted with truth and the Spirit of God, and his teachings have been the pure gospel of Christ that have attended with that Spirit of God. And I have frequently seen him when I think he have been clothed upon with a great degree of the Spirit of God. As it respects the former life of Joseph Smith, I am altogether unacquainted with it as it respects the certain persons you spoke of. I'm ignorant of that circumstance and the paper that you allude to because his parents were saying, well, we read that Joseph Smith was a drunkard. His parents are attacking Joseph and I expect it was a publication of the world. I have not the least idea that Joseph Smith ever promised to show those plates to any person. Now, one of the claims that was made in Mormonism unveiled was that Joseph promised to show the plates to Nathaniel Lewis and then refused to show the plates to Nathaniel Lewis. So I'm sure that's what his parents are referencing, that he had promised to show the plates to any person to whom they were not shown. You ask why those plays were not plates were not exposed to public view, that they should not be in doubt. Those plates were once common to mankind before they were hit up in the earth, as also was our Savior. Let me ask you, why was not our Savior after his burial again made common to mankind instead of just appearing to a few witnesses? Even as Christ has appeared and been made manifest universally to mankind, it is not at all probable that they would have believed on him any more for this. Neither do I believe that the opposers of this work would believe any more for their having the privilege of seeing those plates. But they were shown to witnesses sufficient to bear testimony as those witnesses for Christ to whom he appeared. And then he goes on to apologize that he spoke so harshly to his Father. But his point being, look, God has withheld these things for a wise purpose in order for people to exercise faith. And anyone who says, well, if only I found some physical evidence, than I would believe is someone who would never actually believe. And it's a great question. I mean, Wilford's a much better arguer than I am. Why didn't Jesus appear to the entire world all at once as a resurrected being? Obviously that would convince more people, because that's not the purpose of this life. So thank you so much for joining us. Read your Book of Mormon, follow the prophets. Maybe we'll someday get the sealed portion. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gary Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.