Standard of Truth Podcast: S5E40 – "Dead and in Hell Part 2"

Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-host: Dr. Richard Leduc
Topic: LDS History - Political Turmoil, Doctrinal Adaptation, and Navigating Tough Questions

Episode Overview

This episode continues the examination of how early members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints navigated tumultuous political waters during the exodus to the West and beyond. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc use historical sources, humor, and personal anecdotes to provide context and insight into issues of political hypocrisy, scriptural adaptation, and the importance of confronting difficult topics in church history. The discussion weaves in the background on why Brigham Young labeled certain U.S. presidents "damned," the complex relationship between Latter-day Saints and American political parties, and practical advice for inoculating LDS youth against faith-damaging historical "gotchas."

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jewish New Year and Family Traditions (00:46–04:09)

• Dr. Leduc shares personal traditions celebrating Rosh Hashanah, blending Jewish symbolism (casting bread as sins) with family activities and humor.
  • "You're supposed to seek forgiveness from those that you've wronged…provide a little more grace to those that have wronged you." (02:04, Leduc)
  • The tradition is compared to LDS baptism and the Feast of Tabernacles, drawing analogies between cultures and rituals.

"Christy's Corner": D&C 106–108 and Evolution of Revelation (07:09–20:23)

• “Christy’s Corner”—a tongue-in-cheek segment meant for listeners to shine with unique tidbits in Sunday school—is focused on the composition and evolution of D&C 107.
  • Unique structure: D&C 107 was received in two parts; the latter half came first (Nov 1831), later combined and updated as Joseph Smith’s understanding expanded.
  • Scriptural Amendment: Joseph Smith’s updates to revelations are highlighted as a divine process, not fraud:
    • The text about bishops needing literal descent from Aaron was added later as Joseph received more light (14:30–19:00).
    • Dr. Dirkmaat addresses concerns over scriptural changes:

      "We often have Latter Day Saints who feel troubled over the fact that Joseph Smith made emendations to the revelations…But…that's not a belief that Latter Day Saints have. The entire purpose of [the JST] is for us to better understand God's will…" (16:45–17:51, Dirkmaat)

  • Takeaway: Emphasis on flexibility in continuing revelation, contrasting with rigid Protestant views of scriptural infallibility.

Mailbag: Supporting Missionaries & Inoculating Youth (20:23–36:31)

• Lindsay thanks the hosts for helping her cousin, a missionary in Pennsylvania, counter anti-LDS arguments using podcast material (20:23).
• David seeks advice on critical gospel topics to address with LDS youth before “the world” does.
  • Dirkmaat and Leduc emphasize:
    • Use Church’s Gospel Topics Essays (esp. on polygamy, priesthood/temple restrictions, multiple First Vision accounts, Book of Mormon translation).
    • Prepare youth for "shock value" to dissipate:

      "It's not the thing. It's that they haven't heard of the thing." (23:09, Leduc)

    • Real-world anecdote: LDS youth already encounter difficult subjects via peers/social media (32:24–33:59).
  • Mention of resources: Deseret Books’ "Let’s Talk About" series for deeper dives.

LDS Political History: Whigs, Democrats & Iowa (36:46–54:03)

• Historical Context: The Saints, after being driven out, change political allegiance in Iowa due to Democratic failures to defend them.
  • Iowa Democrats created new voting laws for Mormons’ support, then tried to discount LDS votes when they swung Whig.

    "It's the greatest demonstration of 19th-century political hypocrisy that I think I've ever found." (38:34, Dirkmaat)

  • This led to a congressional investigation and contributed to Saints’ growing distrust of American politics (41:04).
• Internal LDS Conflict:
  • Leaders such as Orson Hyde and Almon Babbitt feuded fiercely via dueling newspapers about party loyalty, resulting in disfellowshipment.
  • Brigham Young’s advice to Orson Hyde:

    "We wish to say to you, do not allow trivial matters to influence you in the least…and never, no, never…drag the priesthood into political gentile warfare…" (49:24, read by Dirkmaat)

  • Key Ethical Teachings:
    • Politics is not the kingdom; criticizing Church leaders from a partisan stance reflects misaligned loyalties.
    • "You may not think you're making a choice between God and mammon, but…you're saying, hey, this political scientist…is making a better point than President Nelson." (52:36, Dirkmaat)

Brigham Young on U.S. Presidents, Divine Retribution & Political Rhetoric (54:03–71:52)

• Did Brigham Young say presidents were “damned and in hell”?

  • Evidence of intense rhetoric directed at James Polk, who had betrayed the Saints’ trust:
    • Polk’s duplicity: Secretly planned to deny LDS participation in their own governance (extract from Thomas Kane’s letter, 62:54–68:05).
  • Brigham’s warning to the Saints: Don’t become fixated on political power or parties as a substitute for the kingdom of God:
    • "[‘Polk’] would be damned for this act…" (59:03–59:49, Dirkmaat) – using strong rhetoric to communicate religious betrayal and divine justice.
  • Context for harsh rhetoric: Public speeches of the era used powerful imagery and threats that should be read as hyperbole.

    "When we read rhetoric from the past, we take it literally…when we read rhetoric today, we say, well that's just figurative and we don't have to read it [literally]." (58:49, Dirkmaat)

• Political Neutrality on Slavery:

  • Thomas Kane (outsider ally, abolitionist) advised Saints to remain publicly neutral on slavery to someday gain statehood, even though this offends modern sensibilities (68:10).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Latter-day Saint scriptural mindset:

  "That's not a belief that Latter-day Saints have...The entire purpose of Joseph Smith's translation [is] for us to better understand God's will…" — Dirkmaat (16:45)

• On political expediency:

  "Political parties don't exist to keep ideology pure. They exist to win elections. And they've always existed to win elections." — Dirkmaat (43:51)

• Brigham Young’s political admonition:

  "Never, no, never drag the priesthood into political gentile warfare...Let no religious test be required…" — Dirkmaat reading Brigham Young (49:24)

• On balancing faith and politics:

  "It's the kingdom of God or nothing. So just as a side note, if you ever find yourself criticizing the prophet ... on the basis of the talking points of whatever political party you feel most closely aligned to...you are stepping away from that understanding that this is God's kingdom." — Dirkmaat (52:01)

• On Saints’ experience with US government:

  "First of all, everyone hates Mormons. So the standing baseline is I don't like Mormons." — Dirkmaat (64:11)

• On neutrality re: slavery question:

  "It will not do for you to take the slavery question or the anti-slavery or any other side but neutral...you must have officers of yourselves..." — Read from Thomas Kane letter (68:05)

Important Timestamps

• Jewish New Year and LDS Traditions: 00:46–04:09
• Christy’s Corner—D&C 106–108 & Revelation's Adaptation: 07:09–20:23
• Missionaries and Defending Against Doubt: 20:23–36:31
• LDS Political Allegiance Change & Backlash in Iowa: 36:46–44:40
• Orson Hyde vs. Almon Babbitt Conflict / Brigham Young Letter: 44:41–54:03
• Brigham’s Sermon on Polk, Strong Rhetoric: 54:03–59:58
• Why Polk Opposed LDS Statehood & Thomas Kane’s Counsel: 62:54–69:02

Tone & Style

• Friendly, conversational, occasionally irreverent ("Christy's Corner," running gags about sponsors)
• Cites historical sources with academic rigor, but makes them accessible
• Willingness to directly address hard questions with humor and seriousness

For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This episode weaves history, applied church doctrine, and practical advice for faithful LDS living and teaching. It's especially relevant for those interested in:

• Early Mormon interaction with U.S. political systems
• How and why LDS revelations evolved as Joseph Smith gained new insights
• Strategies for helping youth (and adults) handle tough questions about Church history before being blindsided
• The context behind Brigham Young's "damned and in hell" rhetoric aimed at specific politicians

If you're preparing for a faith-based discussion, teaching youth, or simply interested in the gritty realities of 19th-century LDS history, this episode offers valuable guidance, eye-opening stories, and real-life application—all with characteristic humor and candor.