Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth

Episode: S5E42 – “Prescription to Avoid Apostasy”
Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard LeDoux

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDoux reflect on recent General Conference highlights, dive into early Church history, and most notably, examine the revelatory counsel given to Thomas B. Marsh in D&C 112 as a “prescription” to avoid apostasy. They also field audience questions ranging from the history of temple garments to perceptions of Mormonism as a cult—all presented with their trademark blend of faith, expertise, and humor.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reflections on October 2025 General Conference

• The hosts share personal conference highlights, emphasizing emotional resonance and doctrinal guidance, especially President Oaks’ family-centered talk.
• Notable insight: Discussion around how emotionally charged family doctrine can provoke defensive, exception-oriented responses.
  • “Every time I've ever been in a situation...the comments are always...about the exceptions to the rule.” (07:15, Dirkmaat)
• They celebrate Elder Kevin G. Brown's passion and lively delivery, with playful nods to the increased cultural flavor in recent Church leadership. (09:17+)

2. The Human Side of Church Doctrine and Social Reactions

• Conversation on emotional reactions to doctrine—particularly eternal family and marriage—versus reactions to less personally-charged historical topics.
  • “When you have a personal connection to something, it causes you to react on emotion.” (04:06, Dirkmaat)
• The hosts reiterate that exceptions to doctrinal ideals do not negate God’s standards or His compassion for individual circumstances.

3. Listener Interaction & Community Humor

• The segment includes lighthearted banter about listeners' emails, callings, and the unofficial “benefits” of sounding knowledgeable from the podcast (e.g., “cheat sheet for Sunday School” and sudden callings).
• The hosts poke fun at themselves and the show’s impact, exaggerating claims for comedic effect. (12:00–14:00)

4. Doctrine & Covenants 112: Thomas B. Marsh and Apostasy

Historical Context:

• Thomas B. Marsh, president of the Quorum of the Twelve, received a revelatory rebuke in D&C 112 regarding pride, authority, and following Joseph Smith.
• Discussion on early Church disunity, particularly anticipating the Kirtland apostasy.
  • “We are only months away from the bottom falling out of the church in Kirtland.” (18:14, Dirkmaat)

The Lord’s Warning in D&C 112:

• The Lord commands humility and loyalty to Joseph Smith.
  • “Exalt not yourselves. Rebel not against my servant Joseph...” (18:40, quoting D&C 112)
• The hosts highlight that, in hindsight, the warning was prophetic, given Marsh’s eventual apostasy.

Thomas Marsh’s “Prescription to Avoid Apostasy”

• After returning to the Church later in life, Thomas Marsh wrote a literal “prescription” for faithfulness, using weights and measures as metaphors:
  • Recipe:
    • 1 tablespoon faith
    • 3 grains common sense
    • 1 scruple consideration
    • 1 tablespoon charity
    • 1 dose forbearance
    • 1 ounce brotherly love
    • Mix well, take every hour until relief is obtained
  • “As someone who understands it on both sides, I think we should maybe take his prescription and put it to heart.” (29:16, Dirkmaat)

5. Q&A Segment – Addressing Listener Questions

Apostasy and Agency:

• A missionary asks: “Why does God allow periods of apostasy like the Great Apostasy?”
  • Dr. Dirkmaat:
    • God’s allowance is tied to agency.
    • The Latter-day Saint perspective softens the tragedy of apostasy, given universal opportunity for salvation via temple work for the dead.
    • Contrasts with mainstream Christian views that see historical gaps as theological disasters.
    • “God knew...he had prepared a plan whereby everyone would have an equal opportunity to be saved...The plan was always that regardless of the effects of other people's agency, that...everyone will have an equal opportunity at exaltation.” (40:04)

The History of Temple Garments:

• Question: Why did other Christians lose the practice of sacred garments, and why do they mock Latter-day Saints for it?
  • Dr. Dirkmaat:
    • Sacred clothing was common in ancient Israel and early Christianity.
    • The Reformation’s rejection of “Catholic hocus pocus” led to de-emphasizing all sacred clothing/trappings, making the LDS practice seem strange in a Protestant-dominated culture.
    • Catholics tend to be less weirded out due to their tradition of sacred attire.
    • “That cultural tradition...of eliminating...sacred anything except for your faith in Jesus...affects how people react to the idea of sacred clothing.” (55:06)

Why Do People Call Mormons a Cult?

• Notions of “cult” are used to delegitimize Latter-day Saints due to differences in doctrine (trinitarianism, authority, etc.).
  • Evangelicals frequently differentiate themselves from Latter-day Saints through negative labeling rather than doctrinal discussion.
  • Dr. Dirkmaat: Proud of distinct Latter-day Saint beliefs—especially the doctrine that God loves and seeks the salvation of all His children.
  • “You believe in a Jesus that actually loves everyone...He doesn’t just say that, He demonstrates it.” (63:19)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dirkmaat on family doctrines provoking personal responses:
  “The very fact that you're upset by the fact that your mom abandoned the family when you were five actually kind of proves the point of what the proclamation is saying.” (07:23)

• On the emotional depths of faithfulness:
  “As he's sharing that story and he's getting emotional of an event that happened 86 years ago...I think about times in my life when I was extended mercy when I didn't deserve it...” (08:31, LeDoux)

• Prescription against apostasy:
  “You take a scruple of consideration, one tablespoon of charity, a dose of forbearance, an ounce of brotherly love...take freely every hour until relief is obtained.” (28:12–29:11, Dirkmaat quoting Marsh)

• On the uniqueness of LDS worldview regarding apostasy:
  “For Latter Day Saints, we don't confront this question [of apostasy] with the same level of import, because God knew...that he had prepared a plan whereby everyone would have an equal opportunity to be saved.” (40:28)

• On the “cult” accusation:
  “Will you believe in a Jesus who created almost everyone who's ever existed out of nothing, knowing that they would burn in hell forever?...We don't believe in that Jesus and we don't believe in that God.” (62:05)

• Self-deprecating humor:
  “We are an acquired taste...the taste we are to them is Listerine.” (44:31) “My wife thinks you guys are okay. Which is the highest of praise, by the way.” (47:32, LeDoux)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:37 – Hosts greet and share General Conference highlights.
• 08:31 – Emotional impact of President Oaks’ conference story.
• 10:32 – Listener email Overture, “Christie’s Corner” intro.
• 17:00–29:00 – In-depth on D&C 112 & Thomas B. Marsh’s path to, and from, apostasy.
• 25:44 – Dr. Dirkmaat reads Marsh’s “Prescription to Avoid Apostasy.”
• 35:09 – Q&A: Why does God allow apostasy? LDS vs. traditional Christian response.
• 47:56 – Listener question: History of temple garments and “cult” label.
• 55:00 onward – Cultural and Protestant perspectives on sacred clothing; extended answer on perceptions of Mormonism as a cult.

Tone & Style

The episode combines deep doctrinal/historical insight with gentle humor and conversational accessibility. The hosts regularly poke fun—at themselves, each other, and quirks within the Latter-day Saint community—while treating doctrinal and historical subjects with respect and clarity. Listeners can expect both to laugh and to learn something substantial about faith, history, and navigating controversy as Latter-day Saints.

For listeners seeking tools to strengthen their faith, grapple with difficult questions, or simply enjoy lively and informative Latter-day Saint conversation, this episode delivers in memorable, digestible segments, with lasting wisdom from both modern and early Church experiences.