S5E42 Prescription to Avoid Apostasy

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth

Episode: S5E42 – “Prescription to Avoid Apostasy”
Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard LeDoux

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDoux reflect on recent General Conference highlights, dive into early Church history, and most notably, examine the revelatory counsel given to Thomas B. Marsh in D&C 112 as a “prescription” to avoid apostasy. They also field audience questions ranging from the history of temple garments to perceptions of Mormonism as a cult—all presented with their trademark blend of faith, expertise, and humor.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reflections on October 2025 General Conference

• The hosts share personal conference highlights, emphasizing emotional resonance and doctrinal guidance, especially President Oaks’ family-centered talk.
• Notable insight: Discussion around how emotionally charged family doctrine can provoke defensive, exception-oriented responses.
  • “Every time I've ever been in a situation...the comments are always...about the exceptions to the rule.” (07:15, Dirkmaat)
• They celebrate Elder Kevin G. Brown's passion and lively delivery, with playful nods to the increased cultural flavor in recent Church leadership. (09:17+)

2. The Human Side of Church Doctrine and Social Reactions

• Conversation on emotional reactions to doctrine—particularly eternal family and marriage—versus reactions to less personally-charged historical topics.
  • “When you have a personal connection to something, it causes you to react on emotion.” (04:06, Dirkmaat)
• The hosts reiterate that exceptions to doctrinal ideals do not negate God’s standards or His compassion for individual circumstances.

3. Listener Interaction & Community Humor

• The segment includes lighthearted banter about listeners' emails, callings, and the unofficial “benefits” of sounding knowledgeable from the podcast (e.g., “cheat sheet for Sunday School” and sudden callings).
• The hosts poke fun at themselves and the show’s impact, exaggerating claims for comedic effect. (12:00–14:00)

4. Doctrine & Covenants 112: Thomas B. Marsh and Apostasy

Historical Context:

• Thomas B. Marsh, president of the Quorum of the Twelve, received a revelatory rebuke in D&C 112 regarding pride, authority, and following Joseph Smith.
• Discussion on early Church disunity, particularly anticipating the Kirtland apostasy.
  • “We are only months away from the bottom falling out of the church in Kirtland.” (18:14, Dirkmaat)

The Lord’s Warning in D&C 112:

• The Lord commands humility and loyalty to Joseph Smith.
  • “Exalt not yourselves. Rebel not against my servant Joseph...” (18:40, quoting D&C 112)
• The hosts highlight that, in hindsight, the warning was prophetic, given Marsh’s eventual apostasy.

Thomas Marsh’s “Prescription to Avoid Apostasy”

• After returning to the Church later in life, Thomas Marsh wrote a literal “prescription” for faithfulness, using weights and measures as metaphors:
  • Recipe:
    • 1 tablespoon faith
    • 3 grains common sense
    • 1 scruple consideration
    • 1 tablespoon charity
    • 1 dose forbearance
    • 1 ounce brotherly love
    • Mix well, take every hour until relief is obtained
  • “As someone who understands it on both sides, I think we should maybe take his prescription and put it to heart.” (29:16, Dirkmaat)

5. Q&A Segment – Addressing Listener Questions

Apostasy and Agency:

• A missionary asks: “Why does God allow periods of apostasy like the Great Apostasy?”
  • Dr. Dirkmaat:
    • God’s allowance is tied to agency.
    • The Latter-day Saint perspective softens the tragedy of apostasy, given universal opportunity for salvation via temple work for the dead.
    • Contrasts with mainstream Christian views that see historical gaps as theological disasters.
    • “God knew...he had prepared a plan whereby everyone would have an equal opportunity to be saved...The plan was always that regardless of the effects of other people's agency, that...everyone will have an equal opportunity at exaltation.” (40:04)

The History of Temple Garments:

• Question: Why did other Christians lose the practice of sacred garments, and why do they mock Latter-day Saints for it?
  • Dr. Dirkmaat:
    • Sacred clothing was common in ancient Israel and early Christianity.
    • The Reformation’s rejection of “Catholic hocus pocus” led to de-emphasizing all sacred clothing/trappings, making the LDS practice seem strange in a Protestant-dominated culture.
    • Catholics tend to be less weirded out due to their tradition of sacred attire.
    • “That cultural tradition...of eliminating...sacred anything except for your faith in Jesus...affects how people react to the idea of sacred clothing.” (55:06)

Why Do People Call Mormons a Cult?

• Notions of “cult” are used to delegitimize Latter-day Saints due to differences in doctrine (trinitarianism, authority, etc.).
  • Evangelicals frequently differentiate themselves from Latter-day Saints through negative labeling rather than doctrinal discussion.
  • Dr. Dirkmaat: Proud of distinct Latter-day Saint beliefs—especially the doctrine that God loves and seeks the salvation of all His children.
  • “You believe in a Jesus that actually loves everyone...He doesn’t just say that, He demonstrates it.” (63:19)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dirkmaat on family doctrines provoking personal responses:
  “The very fact that you're upset by the fact that your mom abandoned the family when you were five actually kind of proves the point of what the proclamation is saying.” (07:23)

• On the emotional depths of faithfulness:
  “As he's sharing that story and he's getting emotional of an event that happened 86 years ago...I think about times in my life when I was extended mercy when I didn't deserve it...” (08:31, LeDoux)

• Prescription against apostasy:
  “You take a scruple of consideration, one tablespoon of charity, a dose of forbearance, an ounce of brotherly love...take freely every hour until relief is obtained.” (28:12–29:11, Dirkmaat quoting Marsh)

• On the uniqueness of LDS worldview regarding apostasy:
  “For Latter Day Saints, we don't confront this question [of apostasy] with the same level of import, because God knew...that he had prepared a plan whereby everyone would have an equal opportunity to be saved.” (40:28)

• On the “cult” accusation:
  “Will you believe in a Jesus who created almost everyone who's ever existed out of nothing, knowing that they would burn in hell forever?...We don't believe in that Jesus and we don't believe in that God.” (62:05)

• Self-deprecating humor:
  “We are an acquired taste...the taste we are to them is Listerine.” (44:31) “My wife thinks you guys are okay. Which is the highest of praise, by the way.” (47:32, LeDoux)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:37 – Hosts greet and share General Conference highlights.
• 08:31 – Emotional impact of President Oaks’ conference story.
• 10:32 – Listener email Overture, “Christie’s Corner” intro.
• 17:00–29:00 – In-depth on D&C 112 & Thomas B. Marsh’s path to, and from, apostasy.
• 25:44 – Dr. Dirkmaat reads Marsh’s “Prescription to Avoid Apostasy.”
• 35:09 – Q&A: Why does God allow apostasy? LDS vs. traditional Christian response.
• 47:56 – Listener question: History of temple garments and “cult” label.
• 55:00 onward – Cultural and Protestant perspectives on sacred clothing; extended answer on perceptions of Mormonism as a cult.

---

Tone & Style

The episode combines deep doctrinal/historical insight with gentle humor and conversational accessibility. The hosts regularly poke fun—at themselves, each other, and quirks within the Latter-day Saint community—while treating doctrinal and historical subjects with respect and clarity. Listeners can expect both to laugh and to learn something substantial about faith, history, and navigating controversy as Latter-day Saints.

---

For listeners seeking tools to strengthen their faith, grapple with difficult questions, or simply enjoy lively and informative Latter-day Saint conversation, this episode delivers in memorable, digestible segments, with lasting wisdom from both modern and early Church experiences.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I am joined by my newly reinvigorated having listened to General Conference right up to this moment, friend and co host, Dr. Richard LeDoux.

[B]

Hello Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I loved conference. I thought it was, I thought it was awesome. I Did you have a couple of favorite parts from conference that stood out to you?

[A]

Well, I was glad that since I have been embarrassed of recent date not knowing how many temples they would announce, I was glad that I wouldn't have to worry about that anymore. I believe if you were setting the over under on that, you put it at like 10 right. So is that like an all bets are off thing? Is it like.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's like, it's like when the starting quarterback gets hurt and so the, the bet goes off the board. According to my friends who are degenerates that, that participate in sports gambling, which I would never do and do not do and do not recommend people do, but that's what happens. The starting quarterback gets hurt and then it's tough to have a line and so they take the game off of the off of the board. I actually was very touched by the story from President Oaks talking about his grandfather kneeling down beside him and as a man in his 90s getting choked up thinking about when he was seven and his grandfather did that, I thought that was beautiful.

[A]

You know, it is an interesting thing that we sometimes we don't forget, but maybe we don't focus on enough that someone like Elder Oaks, who spent some of his present oak, spent some of his talk talking about the importance of family. It's a very easy thing for someone listening who's coming from a different family situation to immediately discount when that is said. Well, you don't know what it's like. I'm from a family that doesn't have a father or doesn't have a mother in it. And I think he kind of knows what that's like. I mean, it's one of those things that's frustrating because when it comes to family, when it comes to marriage, when it comes to these things that are deeply, deeply personal to us, we react with emotion. Whenever anyone says anything, we don't react, you know, we don't react the way Richard. Well, okay, this isn't fair because Richard would react with emotion. If I was like, hey, Richard, did you see that the Japanese lowered rice tariffs to 1000%? He would react with emotion.

[B]

I'd be, oh my gosh, I'd be so excited.

[A]

It would be the greatest thing that ever happened to him.

[B]

Well below 750%, but still. I see your point. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. No, but you know, when you're talking about a lot of things in history, we don't have a really, we don't have a dog in the fight. And not having a dog in the fight allows us to be, at least, hopefully it allows us to be more judicious about the way we think about things, the way we act about things, taking in the evidence and then deciding. But when it comes to things that are very personal to us, we aren't that way at all. Right. So I mean, the best example of this, that since, you know, we do talk about sports sometimes is sports, right? So like the, the, the die hard nature that you have for whatever team that you're cheering for causes you to believe things that you would never believe for any other team. Like you would see a player that if they were on any other team, you'd be like, that guy is not going to be a great quarterback. He doesn't have a good arm. He doesn't have the right decision making. He is not going to be great for their team this year. But if he's on your team, you're like, you know what, I think it's probably Heisman. I think probably Heisman. I mean, maybe Heisman runner up could be Heisman runner up, but I think also Heisman. And, and so when you have a personal connection to something, it causes you to, it causes you to react on emotion. And, and I know that that happens whenever we talk about eternal families in the church. Every time I've ever been in a situation where, you know, you're going through the family proclamation or you are discussing what God's revealed doctrine is on, on eternal marriage. The comments are always, always, every time. In fact, I'm trying to think and remember a time when they're not. But they are always about the exceptions to the rule. They always are, right? So when you read in the proclamation that by divine design children should be raised in a family with a mother and a father, immediately the hands are going up, right? Well, my, my mom left us when I was five. Are you saying that my dad didn't raise us the right way? I'm literally not saying that. In fact, the very fact that you're upset by the fact that your mom abandoned the family when you were five actually kind of proves the point of what the proclamation saying. Right? I mean, and well, what about my. In my family my dad was abusive and that's why my mom divorced him. Again, the prophets always explain that there are situations that necessitate families being separated and in some cases children are raised in single parent homes because of things like President Oaks father who died. So, so that's literally not the fault of it. And we have lots of great leaders in the church who are men and women who come out of single parent households, including prophets like soon to be president of the church but currently president of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, Dallin H. Oaks. But also Joseph F. Smith, whose mom raised him as a single parent because his dad was murdered in Carthage jail and then his mom died very shortly thereafter. Only, only, only 10 years after Hiram's murdered, Joseph F. Smith's mother dies. So you know, I feel like it's one of those things where we always want to say, well what about this? And well what about that? And of course the Lord knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts. He knows the situations people are in. The fact that there's exceptions to the rule though don't demonstrate that the rule is not what God's design is and how people might have the greatest happiness. That's. That's just the reality. So spent way too much time on that.

[B]

No, that's a beautiful sentiment. I the, the fact that as he's sharing that story and he's getting emotional of an event that happened 86 years ago. I think about times in my life though where I was extended mercy when I didn't deserve it and the, and I get choked up about it even thinking about it now and it happened so long ago. Anyways, a beautiful sentiment. Especially President Oaks can be seen as a very strict individual. But it was incredible to see that side of him that was beautiful. And I will say also Kevin G. Brown of the 70 his talk, that was fire.

[A]

I loved his passion. He was, he was el fuego. He was, he was ready to rock and roll. Which was, which was outstanding. It was beautiful. And I do think there's probably going to be a huge spike in the amount of Cajun seasoning that purchased.

[B]

Oh gosh. Because of Elder Amos. Oh my God. So the talk before was very good. But when he came in with. With kind of. He added that it's like he was coming straight out of Lafayette. You know, he had a little bit of that accent, that Louisiana accent. It was a good time. He was great. I got to imagine. I got to imagine when he's the presiding authority at a state conference, you're about to have a good time.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I also. I felt bad because it kind of sounded like the. The alligator from Princess and the Frog. And it took me a minute. I had to go, you know, I loved it.

[B]

It was great. He was great. That was. That was. I very much enjoyed conference. It was fun. We had a bunch of our kids from, you know, college, and some of their friends came, and we had the missionaries for a little bit. It was a good time, so. Well, Garrett, do you want to jump straight into Christie's Corner? Doctrine covenants, section 112.

[A]

I feel like once we start doing Christie's Corner, we're not even going to do the rest of this, but, yeah, let's do it right now.

[B]

Well, you know what? Before we do that, actually. Well, I'm just going to read a quick note here from Mindy that kind of leads into this a little bit. Let's see. So on July 17, I learned how I got myself into the situation that I am in. She was called as the Stake Relief Society President. With your introduction of Christie's Corner. I'm currently serving as a Stake Relief Society president. I've always wondered how that happened, but I guess I shouldn't have spoken. Woken up so much in Sunday school the last time we did Doctrine Covenants. I have tried several times to get released by comments I've made in State Council that should never be said at a church meeting, ever. Alas, still here. So, Richard, tell your sister it isn't worth it. I have to sound smart in Sunday school. So that's.

[A]

She was a very. Has a great email.

[B]

Very good email. But first of all, she loves.

[A]

Just for all you haters out there, Mindy loves the fact that we talk about sports.

[B]

She did.

[A]

So she loves the fact that we're talking about it. Second of all, I think you're just. You've just got to go right to the jugular. Mindy, you've got a. It's King Follett sermon or bus. If you want to be released in those State Council meetings, you need to be like. I mean, I just feel like we should be thinking more about how Joseph said that you suppose God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea. And then just go with it.

[B]

You're assuming she hasn't done that, though.

[A]

I feel like she. I feel like she's been. She. She hasn't gone all the way with it. But, you know, look, we have now proof positive. I mean, anecdotal, sure, but anecdotal enough that we could, you know, create our own pharmaceutical drug and have, like, 95 side effects listed. That we have. We have Elder Abel, who. Who went from being a lowly, didn't have, you know, wasn't even a companion. I mean, yeah, like, he was probably in, like, a threesome. And he was the third guy that they had just. Just to watch over him because he was such a bad missionary.

[B]

The worst missionary, I think, in the entire church.

[A]

He's probably still a bad missionary. But you know what he did?

[B]

He.

[A]

He applied the principles of. Of listening to the Standard of Truth podcast. He pretended that all the knowledge came from him. And the next thing you know, senior companion. Next thing you know, district leader. Next thing you know, zone leader, and, you know what, assistant to the President. And we can only assume that when Elder Abel goes home, he'll be called to be in a bishopric the moment he gets home.

[B]

I. Yeah, well, so he lives. He's. He's from Mississippi.

[A]

Well, then he's. He's bishop then. I. I said Bishop Rick. But he's from Mississippi. Yeah. He'll be in the stake presidency.

[B]

It's funny. Funny you bring him up. I'm taking him and Elder Fawcett to. To dinner on Friday, actually, as they're getting toward the end of their mission before transfers. I wanted to say how much we love them, But. But what you're saying is correct. Still a terrible missionary, but stole all of your stuff and now.

[A]

Yeah, and that's what this is about. The. The podcast isn't about making you a better person.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, no.

[A]

Or giving you knowledge.

[B]

That's what the gospel's for.

[A]

You taking this information to make other people surreptitiously think that you are a better person. Yeah, that's. That's what this is about. It's about right. What way can I look like I know about things that I don't know anything about? When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool, you. It's Christine's corner. Well, we have a couple to choose from here, but I think I want to focus on doctrine covenant, section 112, in part because you Know, when you're a historian and you look back, you can see things and trends of things that you didn't. You wouldn't notice at the time, but that when you have all the information in front of you, it suddenly looks like there's a pattern that you didn't notice before, and the people going through it didn't notice. Section 112 is a section that's given by. It's a revelation that Joseph Smith receives for Thomas B. Marsh. Well, who's Thomas B. Marsh? Thomas Marsh is the president of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. And we're actually on the premium side of things. We're actually talking about him right now with Section 31 of the Doctrine and Covenants. The premium, remember, is accessible to the missionaries who send us their missionary email address. We give that to them for free. And then, you know, it's designed for people who want to help support the podcast and keep us on the air. They, they, you know, it's a. It's a small donation, basically, and we provide some extra content for that. But we've already been talking about Thomas Marsh, but I thought section 112 is a great place to kind of talk about this as well, that he. He is a profound, powerful, early member of the church. He becomes the president of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, and yet this revelation chastises him. And so what is going on here? If you go to the very first verse of section 112, verily, thus saith the Lord and you, my servant, Thomas, I've heard thy prayers. Thine alms have come up as a memorial before me in behalf of those, thy brethren, who were chosen to bear testimony of my name and send it abroad to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and ordained through the Instrumentality, my servants. So, first of all, that sounds pretty good. I mean, you know, I've heard your prayers. Thine alms have come up before me. That sounds like things are going very well. Verse 2. Verily I say unto you, there have been some few things in thine heart, and with thee which I the Lord was not well pleased. Now he does get. Nevertheless, inasmuch as thou hast abased thyself, thou shalt be exalted. Therefore thy sins are forgiven thee. What is going on here? Well, in early 1837, Joseph Smith, as the prophet, receives revelation to send two of the members of the Quorum of the Twelve on a mission to England. Well, Thomas Marsh finds out about this from these two members who are on their way to go on their Mission. And he gets really upset about it over the fact that, hey, I'm the president of the quorum of the 12. I should be the one deciding where the quorum of the 12 goes. That's my purview, not Joseph's. Why is Joseph sending people on these missions? He's told in verse 14. Now, I say unto you, and what I say unto you, I say unto all the 12, arise and gird up your loins. Take up your cross and follow me and feed my sheep. Exalt not yourselves. Rebel not against my servant Joseph. For verily I say unto you, I am with him, and my hand shall be over him, and the keys which I have given unto him and also to you were shall not be taken from him till I come. Now, for the people at the time, maybe members of the quorum of the 12 who read this were like, what do you mean, rebel? We aren't rebelling at all. I mean, sure, Thomas was like, hey, I'm the one who gets to decide whether or not they go on missions. But we are only months away from the bottom falling out of the church in Kirtland. We are months away from the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society. And the whole back six months of 1837, the whole second half of the year, is apostasy that reaches even the highest levels among the quorum of the twelve. Now, God obviously knows everything, so he already knew that that was going to happen. And here he tried to counsel the 12, exalt not yourself. Rebel not against my servant Joseph. My guess is when those members of the quorum first heard that, they're like, what do you mean, rebel not? I'm, like, literally serving missions. I'm literally doing everything you say. What was one of the arguments that was made by some of the members of the quorum of the twelve who apostatized in 1837 and 1838 that Joseph was a fallen prophet. What does the second half of verse 15 say? The keys which I have given unto him and also to you, word shall not be be taken from him. Well, I think Joseph's just a fallen prophet. Well, the Lord's telling you, Nope, he's not one. Well, yeah, but what if the Kirtland safety Society collapses? Well, let me reiterate what I just said. Joseph is not going to have the keys taken from him. Verse 17. Thou mayest be my servant to unlock the door of my kingdom in all places where my servant Joseph and Sydney and Hiram cannot come. For on them have I laid the burden of all the churches for a little season. So he's telling them this, but also, you know, there's that little bit of a warning that. That's in there. Therefore, this verse 27, see to it that you trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church. In this place in Kirtland, saith the Lord, purify your heart. So again, things are starting to steadily decline. That's not the members of the quorum of the 12's job. Their job is to preach the gospel to the nations outside of where Joseph is. Go you into all the world and preach my gospel unto every creature who has not received it. For unto you the 12 and those the first presidency who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, he is the power of this priesthood given for the last days and for the last time, which is the dispensation of fullness of times, which power you hold in connection with all those who've received a dispensation from any time, from the beginning of creation. So it's a reiteration, a little bit of the fact that Thomas needs to remember that Joseph's the one in power. Now, maybe this is also just in the initial Kirtland apostasy. Thomas Marsh remains faithful. So the Kirtland Saving Society collapses. It's not until they go to Missouri. And in fact, in early Missouri, Thomas Marsh shows up and he starts excommunicating everybody. He's holding all kinds of meetings. And I mean, Thomas Marsh is the executioner when it comes to your church membership in Missouri in 1838. He is just leading council after council for all these people that have apostatized that are speaking out against Joseph. And then Thomas Marsh himself apostatizes in the midst of the. In the lead up to the Mormon war in Missouri. And so even though he was the president of the quorum of the 12, he was the man who was trying to root out apostasy from the church. He ends up himself apostatized. Now, there's a long story connected with him. He will eventually come back to the church. And I was trying to read something the other day. I sent this to Richard to see if he could read it. His response was, good luck. It's a very, very terrible handwriting. But if you remember Thomas Marsh in. In sec. If you remember, of course, we probably didn't cover it. But in section 31, Thomas Marsh is. Is told he'll be a physician of the church. Well, after he comes back to the church after these years and years of aposty. And look His. His apostasy is pretty terrible. He is the leader of former church members who signs an affidavit claiming that Joseph Smith was planning to raise an army of Indians and attack the capital of Missouri, and then he was going to march on the capital of the United States. And that is used as evidence that Joseph has committed treason against the state of Missouri and therefore can be tried for treason and possibly executed. Thomas Marsh, because he was such. In such an exalted position, really is. I mean, he is one of the Benedict Arnolds of early Latter Day Saint history. Because he doesn't just leave. There are people who leave and leave pretty quietly. He leaves and creates out of whole cloth, just this huge amounts of lies. Well, this document that's at the church history library, it's in the Erastus Bingham collection, appears to be a prescription to avoid apostasy that Thomas Marsh writes after he comes back into the church.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah, let's share that, huh? I mean, everyone's wondering what presidents are dead in hell. I gave you Polk last time. I mean, just hold on. We'll get there. For apostasy, I believe it's saying, take one tablespoon, although I can't really read it, one tablespoon of faith, take three grains of common sense. Sense is spelled S E N S. So, yeah, take. Take three grains of common sense and one scruple of consideration. Now, my guess is that you aren't super familiar with the idea of a scruple, are you?

[B]

No, not as familiar.

[A]

Now, yeah, we don't usually use the term scruple as a. As a measure of weight anymore, but. So there are 20 grains in a scruple. Okay. Three scruples makes one dram. There are eight drams in one ounce, and there's 12 ounces in one pound in apothecary weight measures. Back then.

[B]

All right, so eight drams in an ounce.

[A]

Yes. In an apothecary ounce, yes.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Not the same as the standard weight measures, obviously.

[B]

Garrett. Obviously, eight drams wouldn't. Was only in the apothecary ounce.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, a grain is a small weight according to the Webster's 1828. A small weight or the smallest weight ordinarily used being the 20th part of a scruple in apothecary's weight and the 24th part of a pennyweight troy, which also you are well aware of, correct?

[B]

Yeah, of course. There was a conference address just on Sunday about recipes about.

[A]

About the pennyweight troy.

[B]

No, well, no, no, it's Just about.

[A]

About grabbing some Tony's Cajun seasoning.

[B]

That's right. Yeah.

[A]

And fixing the problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do agree that if you have enough seasoning in something, it covers up for a host of sins.

[B]

Multitude of sins.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty important. Anyway, so you take a scruple of consideration. One tablespoon of charity, a dose of forbearance, an ounce of brotherly love, all well combined, and it is fit for a dose for an adult. And take freely every hour until relief is obtained. Prescription by Dr. Thomas B. Marsh. So you can see what he thinks that. How do you avoid apostasy? You have faith, common sense, consideration, charity, forbearance, brotherly love. And if you have those together, you won't apostatize. As someone who understands it on both sides, I think we should maybe take his prescription and put it to heart.

[B]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[A]

I imagine it would be even better if you mix some of Elder Amos's Tony in there.

[B]

That's good. That's good. Way to combine all these things together, Garrett. You're weaving a beautiful tapestry. Now, this next two emails kind of go together. So we got an email from a brand new bishop, Bishop Jepsen, and we.

[A]

Are going to claim that he became a bishop because he was commenting in Sunday school from our podcast. Correct?

[B]

That's. We were going to take. Yeah, we're absolutely going to take credit for that. Now, he is a relatively recent littner, though.

[A]

Okay, so that's not. That's not. That doesn't help us as much in our. In our wildly overstated claims like we did with Mindy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I'm a relatively recent litner who was referred to your podcast by my brother in law and business partner. I am now a relatively new bishop who has no. Has no business being one. Well, you know, you're a pretty decent.

[A]

I do want to point out he became a listener and then he became a bishop. I just want to point that out.

[B]

Yeah, it's causational for sure, but you want a bishop that realizes that they actually. You think the stake made a mistake. Like that's the kind of bishop you want.

[A]

Everyone wants a bishop who is so disappointed that they called him to be a bishop. He was just depressed. Who's like, this is ridiculous. You certainly don't want a bishop who's like, I've been waiting my entire life for this call. Oh, that's not the one you want.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's not.

[A]

You don't want the one that when the stake President calls him and says, we need to talk. His response is, I wondered what took you so long. I had that revelation two months ago.

[B]

It's about time. You want. It's the, it's the grout Grant Groucho Marx joke. You know, we want to skew younger for our listeners, so I want to give a Groucho.

[A]

You would have a much better chance of talking about Oscar the Grouch. And even then they wouldn't know who he is.

[B]

Yes. You don't think the missionaries listening have watched Duck Soup recently?

[A]

I, I, I think that they've thought about it, no. Although on their mission, they're probably watching all kinds of stuff.

[B]

Oh, what's that? Well, in Wisconsin, sure. So the Groucho Marx joke is essentially, I don't want to be a member of any group that would have me as a member. That's kind of the, the joke. Anyway, it killed in the 30s. That being said, there was, it was.

[A]

A very sad time, Great Depression and all. People were laughing over a lot of, a lot of not funny things, apparently.

[B]

I am using your podcast as a cheat sheet to catch up. Unlike other litners who are aspiring towards higher callings. But it's funny. It's kind of a them here. Mindy and Bishop Jepsen. My only purpose is to sound like I know what I'm talking about when conversing with others. I have five missionaries in my ward who have just left to serve or will be between now and January. I would like each of them to have the premium content, but unsure if you need your missionary email address or personal. Let me know so that Bishop, if you were to send us their missionary emails, we would give them access to the Google Drive. So if you could do that, we would gladly send them. We've just filled up another Google Drive, so we're on our, our fifth Google Drive now. Full of missionaries. Actually, our sixth actually.

[A]

We kind of need Google to sponsor the podcast.

[B]

I mean, yeah, at this point, the premium is paying for the additional storage that we have for all the missionary concepts.

[A]

What kind of expenses do you guys have? Well, one of them is we're trying to provide content for literally thousands of missionaries. Free.

[B]

I hope. So this next one comes to us from Elder. Oh my goodness. I deleted the name at the end of it. Elder something.

[A]

So wait, a missionary emailed us and you're going to read it, but you deleted his email?

[B]

Well, there's a question. And when you get to the question, I'll go back feverishly. Get the crack research staff on it and get the find name of the missionary. I hope you good doctors are having a pleasant day. I'm a missionary serving in the Panama City, Panama Mission. Seeing as I'm a missionary serving in Panama, I see that. I have no hope of my email getting read because I'm neither in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission or am pregnant. Well, we're happy about that.

[A]

Yeah. First of all, don't get pregnant on your mission. We have a very strong.

[B]

I don't know if it's an element either way. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. We have a very hard line here at the Standard Truth podcast. Don't get pregnant on your mission.

[B]

Is that that's our. That's our hard line.

[A]

We have a very official hard line stance that we are against that.

[B]

You are. You are a stern man, Garrett.

[A]

Yeah, I am an hard man. I reap or I do not sow.

[B]

The constant diet of untaxed rice and low quality chicken would however, make you think otherwise. This email is really more of a shout into the darkness. I wouldn't get offended if you don't read my email, but I hope you do. My question is below and reads as follows. Why did Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ allow there to be periods of apostasy like the great apostasy? Did it just have to do with agency or is there some significance with having the gospel fall away, like how Jesus died and was resurrected? Did Christ's church have to die and be resurrected?

[A]

So, great question. You're asking a question, though, that would require me to be God in order to answer. And unlike someone who's been listening to the podcast and on the ascent, I don't know because of course God knows all things. And so when you have prophets that prophesy like Paul that there will be a falling away first, it is something that they are stating what is going to happen because God already knows what's going to happen. So I don't know whether or not I would say, well, you couldn't have a gospel if there wasn't an apostasy. But God certainly knows that that's the case, that there's going to be an apostasy, that the world is not yet prepared for the doctrine to go forth. It is a good thing that you notice though that God has allowed periods of apostasy. And I do think that it has a lot to do with agency that he allows people to turn away from him, even when that turning away from him, you know, causes a long term problem. Now, this is really a better question for our fellow Christian brothers and sisters because we don't see a hopelessness in the apostasy. Right? So, you know, sometimes our fellow Christians will be like, so you're just trying to say that all the Christians between the apostles and when Joseph Smith was called, you're trying to say that all of them were just wrong, they're just all going to hell because they weren't Mormons. And we like. Well, actually, we like to be called members of the church. I get it. You know, that's the conversation. Well, we don't believe that, Right. Because we've had revealed to us the true nature of who we are and the true nature of who everyone else is and the true purpose of this life and that work for the dead exists and the ability to accept the gospel in the next life exists. It's not the same stark problem that it is for other Christians when you are a Christian who believes that if you die without having the proper knowledge of Jesus, that there is no hope for you. Now, whether you're a Catholic and believe you have to be baptized, you know, in the name of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, or whether you're a Protestant who believes you just have to confess Jesus with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead and that's all that you need for salvation. There's still a reality that it has to be done in this life, that there is no such thing as salvation for the dead. I mean, in Catholicism, you do have work that you can do for the dead. For those that are in purgatory, you can move them quicker out of purgatory. But purgatory isn't a place for people who don't have faith in Jesus. Purgatory is a place for people who do have faith in Jesus who are eventually going to go to heaven once they've been purged of all their venial sins. For Latter Day Saints, we don't confront this question with the same level of import, because God knew, just like you know, that he had prepared a plan whereby everyone would have an equal opportunity to be saved. And so the great tragedy that the apostasy appears to be to a traditional Christian is not the great tragedy to God. Because he didn't start loving those people any less. He didn't start judging them more harshly. He didn't think, well, guess all of my children on earth no longer have a chance to go to the celestial kingdom. The plan was always that regardless of the effects of other people's agency, that we're constantly Dealing with everyone will have an equal opportunity at exaltation. And that was God's plan from the beginning. Now it's something that Elder Holland, Elder Holland Jr. In General Conference, part of what his talk was on was on the Fall, and that was the plan. It's something we've talked about on this podcast before, that, yes, it is difficult in this world filled with sin. Yes, it's difficult that we need to repent, we need to change. All of us are carnal and we need to become holy. But that was the purpose of this earth. And so God knew when he created this earth that people would use their agency in some ways that would have very long lasting effects. But he also knew that those effects temporally would not ultimately determine whether or not someone could be saved eternally. And I think that that allowing of agency was a very big deal. But God also knew that he would eventually intervene, restore that truth to the earth. And that woman who died in 900 A.D. never having understood the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that she would have the exact same opportunity at exaltation that you and I do. So it's not the great tragedy that it would be if we didn't understand that we are children of heavenly parents, that we all chose to come to this earth, and that our Father, who loves us all dearly, created a plan whereby all of us could be saved. I think I. Did I go too long on that one, Richard?

[B]

No, that was beautiful, Garrett. That was very well said. The joke that he gave in his talk about Jonah was hilarious, though. If I'm thinking about the right talk, right. Am I thinking about the right one? Yeah, it's like. Well, there isn't. Well, then you can talk to him. If essentially it is pretty funny.

[A]

Yeah. Then you can ask him.

[B]

So this next email and then as you get into this, Garrett, then we'll be out of time. But you can talk about Presidents for about 10 minutes. Do you want to just get into it? Because we're at 40 minutes here.

[A]

I feel like we have to read this email. This person sacrificed a great deal to bring this email to us.

[B]

Well, okay. All right.

[A]

They're waiting.

[B]

The email is very nice. Hello, Garrett and Richard. I've never written an email to a podcast before or any organization for that matter, but here we are. I started listening to you guys at the beginning of the year after being introduced through Come Follow Me. My first episode was one of the newer ones in Doctrine Covenants, and honestly, I was so confused. It felt like half sports, gambling, commentary and Fan mail. At one point, I assumed Richard was just Garrett's son who wandered into this.

[A]

You know what? I'll take that. Yeah. I mean, we have a very close relationship.

[B]

I just wandered. That's the funniest. That. Doggone it. That's.

[A]

We are doing nothing to disabuse them of that. By the way, this where we've. Yes, we've talked about conference. We've primarily answered listener email. We did mention sports very briefly. That was Mindy's fault.

[B]

I just love the idea of me just walking in like, I've got a bowl of cereal. I'm like, hey, dad, what are you doing?

[A]

You know, and you're just, sit down, son. Let's talk about whether or not you can be justified by faith after death.

[B]

Anyway, I assume that Richard was just Garrett's son who wandered into the studio, and then ever so often, he'd pipe in and I'd be like, wait, who's that guy again? That's David. That's. That's pretty hilarious. But I. I gave you another try. I went back to the beginning. Since then, I binged all the episodes. And by the way, this is so important here, right? So we are an acquired taste. And.

[A]

Well, and we've received many emails from many people who have. Apparently, the taste we are to them is Listerine. Yes.

[B]

And so what we. So we need you to listen to. You listen to 400 episodes, and you listen to them in a row, and then listen to them again. After 800 episodes, you'll start to maybe begin to say, you know, this is okay.

[A]

We always say that, like, obviously, we joke around a little bit, and we do occasionally have people say, I wish all you do is just get right to the content. We also have lots of people who email and say, the only reason I listen is because it's different and it feels lighter. So, you know, there's a couple of things going on there. But, you know, we say that the podcast is clear. Look, we both have testimonies. We're desperately trying to share the gospel in a different way that we can. We will share the knowledge that I've acquired over researching in Joseph Smith, in the early church and most of my life. But really, the podcast is for people who take the gospel seriously, but don't take themselves too seriously. People who are willing to laugh, or at least laugh at us, they're not willing to laugh at anyone else, and they can mock us, but. So, yeah, it is good if you feel like, well, this doesn't make sense to me. Well, you Know, you could start at the beginning, which is a very good place to start, according to the Sound of Music.

[B]

Yes. Julie Andrews. Julie Andrews. So I started at the beginning. I binged all the episodes within two months while commuting, working out, or doing chores. I haven't felt this strong desire and spirit since my mission. When I finished the episode, it was. When I finished the episodes, it was a little depressing. Like, what now? So naturally, I just started over again. Now I've gone through them twice. I'm basically an addict waiting for my weekly fix. Come, follow me. Doesn't give the same high as you guys.

[A]

They're better content, though. I'll tell you.

[B]

Content. Way better production. Way better everything. But, yeah, we're like black tar heroin. That's. That's the better good.

[A]

That's what we need to be. We've always aspired to be a street drug.

[B]

I've recommended the podcast to a lot of people, always with a disclaimer. This podcast isn't for everyone. I could see David like, hey, so there's this great podcast. You're probably gonna hate it. That's the way he kind of described my wife thinks you guys are okay. Which is the highest of praise, by the way. That's what my son says when he's on his mission. Had nothing else to do. That said, I'm ready to cash in my standard of truth podcast guarantee. My wife and I are currently in the hospital, about to have a baby. With inflation, rice tariffs, and general life stress, we figured adding a newborn to the mix could only help wealth. You know what, it's good that you did, because after listening to President Oaks talk, we need to have, you know, we need to have a baby. Boom. Let's go, guys. Let's all of our sons home from their missions. We're like, what are you waiting for? Let's go.

[A]

Yeah. Menace to society.

[B]

At least this way, we'll finally get an answer to one of our questions. We've noticed more and more church members, family, and friends deciding not to wear temple garments anymore, each with their own reasons. We, on the other hand, love wearing them, and especially what they mean to us. It's clear from the Old Testament that the Lord's covenant people wore sacred garments. So my first question, what's the history of how the practice of temple garments got lost? And why do other Christians mock us for it? And if that. If that. If that one's a quick layup. Yeah, that one's a quick layup. Hey, Garrett, if you could just quickly pull all the information on the Old.

[A]

Testament, and it's only 6,000 years. We'll figure it out.

[B]

And after that quick layup, here's the second question. What's the history of Mormons or a cult? Thanks for everything you guys do. You guys are great disciples of Christ, David. And I'm so sorry, I'm about to slaughter his wife's name. I do not know how to pronounce it. M A R. Like a difficult name in the temple when you're doing baptisms. M A R Y O R I E. Mariori. Mar Yori.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

Yeah, I hope so.

[A]

We're gonna enact a new policy here at the Standard Truth Podcast. If you have a name that anyone has ever mispronounced, ever, you have to give it to us phonetically. When you send it in, we expect it to be in brackets behind it. Because the amount of. The amount of anxiety we have knowing that we're about to read someone's name wrong, it's through the roof. Oh.

[B]

So literally, before the recording of the podcast, we spent like 10 minutes, like, oh, man, I really, like.

[A]

Clearly no show prep at all. And the show prep we did was, how are we going to read this name? And then we just mocked each other for how poorly we read it, right?

[B]

And then we joked about what we're called. You know, Garrett just goes by Jared when he goes to the temple.

[A]

I go by whenever I go anywhere, whenever I go. And they're like, and whose name can I put on the order? Garrett. Jared. Garrett. Gary. Yeah, Gary. Just put Gary on there.

[B]

G E, R, R I T. Gary.

[A]

Yeah, the. It is silent. I mean, you know what's funny, too, is that sometimes people, when you're, you know, I was just at a store the other day, and they're like, oh, can we put you into our system? I'm like, well, not really. Like, well, it's the way that we keep our receipts. I'm like, okay. And so he's like, can you give me your first name? Well, I start to spell it, and the dude looks back at me, super annoyed, like, just. Just tell it to me. I'll type it in. And then I tell him it's Garrett Dirkmot. And then he looks back at me, realizing that he had flown too close to the sun on wings made of wax. He was pretty proud of himself and thought for sure when I told him that he would just know how to spell it. Like, look, look, I'm good at this. And then I began to spell it out for him. He's like, wow. That is. That's very different, isn't it?

[B]

You're saying he's the Icarus of customer loyalty programs?

[A]

Yeah. What I'm saying is there should be a training video about him. What not to do when someone tells you their name is difficult. Anyway, so we're. Sorry, we said your name wrong, and we're just assuming we did and they sent pictures.

[B]

Your baby looks beautiful.

[A]

Congratulations on the child. It is too long for us to. Do you know something about the temple garments? I mean, I personally don't even know how much those were employed in the New Testament Church. Honestly, it would be very difficult to know with the documents we have. The idea of garments being sacred. I mean, this really. I mean, when I say garments, I mean clothing, any clothing being sacred. I think this really takes a pretty big hit in the Protestant Reformation. Obviously, you can find among early church history, the idea that there are certain types of clothing that are sacred, that are worn to indicate sacred things. And it's much more the case that when in the Protestant Reformation, they're trying to eliminate the hocus pocus, right? They're trying to eliminate what they see. And I'm not saying this. This is what they're saying. What they see as essentially the invented miraculous in Catholicism, right? So they certainly believe in Jesus and that Jesus was miraculous. What do they not believe in? They don't believe that if you go and kiss a wood splinter that someone is claiming is part of the cross that Jesus was crucified on, that it lessens your time in pergamum. They see that as an invented mysticism. And so holy robes and holy clothing, they really take a big hit in the Reformation because they are seen as this kind of ostentatiousness that is beyond. It's beyond what a simple belief in Christ that saves you is. So, historically, where do you see a de emphasis on adornments and lavishness and priestly robes of any kind? You see that de emphasis coming on the heels of the Protestant Reformation. Now, I'm not saying that all Lutherans don't, you know, didn't think that their priests wore certain robes, but there's a huge de emphasis of it, and we've talked about that on other podcasts. For instance, we talked about the cross, that it was de emphasized as a way as separating yourself from Catholicism and seeing this almost as idol worship. If you have your pastor who's wearing giant, long, flowing robes, then that is seen as, you know, ostentatious and beyond what God wants you to do. Much of that just comes out of anti Catholicism. Right. I mean, it becomes pretty easy for a Protestant to make their argument. And their argument is whatever the Catholic Church is doing, we don't do that. It's very. It's Protestantism and Catholicism. You know, they would be very well thought of if you're trying to figure out where they diverge. The way you think about political parties today. Right. A politician might not even have a position on a particular idea right up until their rival takes a position on it. And then whatever their position is that they took, suddenly they have the opposite position. And that's clearly the case for these sacred idea of sacred clothing as well. And it is one of the things that makes Latter Day Saints appear to be weird and odd. Right. So that cultural tradition, Protestant cultural tradition of eliminating the idea of sacred anything except for your faith in Jesus, it affects how people react to the idea of sacred clothing. In fact, I think you'll find, and this is just totally anecdotal, I don't know whether or not this is the case. It at least seems to me when I've had conversations about sacred clothing or temple garments with Catholics, they don't see it as weird and odd as when I'm speaking to an evangelical Christian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's, I think, because in Catholicism there's this idea, of course, there can be clothing that is sacred, that's dedicated to God, that that demonstrates your calling to God. Whereas for many evangelical Protestants, they instead see any of anything that's not the Bible and that isn't Jesus as taking you away from that relationship between you and Jesus. And, you know, if you're wondering what's the history of Mormons or cult, that would take even longer. But, you know, this is one of those aspects. Latter Day Saints reject some of the things that are standard among Protestantism and Catholicism, especially when it comes to things like trinitarian theology or ex nihilo creation. And rather than deal with the fact that there are other Christians who believe something different than them, it's much easier to delegitimize Latter Day Saints and say, if you don't believe in Jesus the way I believe in Jesus, well, then you are a member of a cult, you belong to a false church, you don't really believe in Jesus. We heard this a lot, very unfortunately after the horrific murders that took place in Michigan with the attack on the church, quite a few Christians, you know, falling down the stairs, running to their computer to post, don't call them Christians, they're not Christians, which is really weird to many Other people in the world because they're like, so isn't Christian someone who worships and follows Christ? Isn't that like the definition of them? Yeah, but they don't have the right belief about Jesus that we do. And you know, frankly, it comes across as attempting to be petty. I mean, why don't you just say what Latter Day Saints say? I mean, I believe an Episcopalian is a Christian. Do I believe that they worship Jesus in the same way or have the same beliefs about him that I do? Of course not. But that doesn't change the fact that that person absolutely believes that their salvation comes through Jesus. They absolutely have reworked their life. They've put off their natural man because they love Jesus and they believe they're saved by Jesus. But we don't receive the same respect often. On the argument that your beliefs are too weird, which is really weird, right? Because the same Protestant who will tell you, you Mormons are wrong because you believe that you need to have works for salvation. There's no works involved at all. All that you have to have is faith in Jesus and you have to confess faith in Jesus. You don't need baptism, you don't need your carn, serrant, temple things and whatever, right? That's all wrong. They will use as their example all the time the thief on the cross, right? Because the Lord says to the thief on the cross today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

[B]

Paradise.

[A]

So obviously he was saved. Now, of course, Latter Day Saints, because we have had more revealed, understand that paradise and spirit prison are temporary places that people go prior to the resurrection. They're not immediately taken to heaven or hell. But for an evangelical Christian, a Protestant, this is a perfect example that baptism cannot be essential. It can't be essential. Because if it's essential that thief on the cross doesn't have it, what does he have? He just has belief. So why do I point that out? Well, because how in the world do I know whether or not that thief on the cross understood the triune nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? My guess is he wasn't having deep arguments in Greek about whether or not Jesus was homoo being the same substance as the Father or ho being similar substance of the Father as the Father. My guess is he didn't have any proper understanding of Jesus's actual nature because like seven seconds ago he didn't believe in him and then he believed. And so it's interesting that when I tell a Christian that I absolutely believe I'm saved by Jesus, there is no possible. And anyone listening to conference, every single Latter Day Saint on earth who is active believes the only way they are saved is through the blood of Jesus Christ. That is it. And yet they'll say, well, you, you. You don't really believe in Jesus, so you're a member of a culture. And I know what they mean. What they mean is you don't accept the Christianity of the creeds. You don't accept the Nicene Creed or the Chalcedonian Creed. You don't accept these early high councils determining whether or not Jesus's nature is one way or another way. And so they'll say, well, yeah, you say that you believe in Jesus, but you believe in the wrong Jesus because you're a Mormon. It is frustrating and I know it kind of hurts us. And yet we've also emphasized on this podcast, you know what? If, if we have to get down to brass tacks, will you believe in a Jesus who created almost everyone who's ever existed out of nothing, knowing that they would burn in hell forever? In fact, you believe in a God who's doing it right now. During the course of this podcast, God has created thousands of spirits out of nothing that he knew would never have faith in Jesus, and yet he created them anyway, and he made them immortal anyway, knowing that they would burn in hell forever. We don't believe in that Jesus, and we don't believe in that God. We believe the Jesus of Nazareth who took upon him our sins and died.

[B]

For us.

[A]

Actually created a plan whereby everyone who has ever lived on this earth not only has a chance to be saved, will actually be saved in some kingdom of heaven, except for those numbers, as President Oaks said, that are too small to mention. So I know it annoys us, it bothers us, because we know it's set in vitriol, but maybe instead of responding with vitriol, you can extend some grace to your Christian brothers and sisters. And you know why they're saying it, but also be very proud of the fact that you do believe in a different Jesus. You believe in one that actually loves everyone. He doesn't just say that he loves everyone. He demonstrates through his works that he loves everyone. He doesn't just say, oh, if only you found me, then you can be saved. He is in relentless pursuit of you and every other person who has ever lived. And that is the great Jesus that Latter Day Saints worship. So thank you so much for joining us. I know we're out of time. We'll never get back to what I wanted to talk about. And we'll either have to destroy Christie's Corner, which will end most Relief Society presidencies bids for power, or we will have to not read any more listener email. I mean, which one is it, Richard? What do you think it'll be?

[B]

Listener email. We'll just have to dive right into it.

[A]

Yeah. Like we do every episode. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.