Standard of Truth Podcast – S5E43: "Dead and in Hell Part 3"
October 16, 2025 – Hosted by Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc continue their deep dive into the tumultuous period of early Latter-day Saint history, focusing on the aftermath of the Kirtland collapse, shifts in church headquarters and naming, and the Saints' unexpected role in the regional politics of post-Mexican War America. With their trademark blend of humor, banter, and scholarly insight, the hosts explore the real historical sources and untold stories that illuminate the Saints’ disillusionment with US political leaders—leading up to infamous statements about figures like President Zachary Taylor being "dead and in hell." Along the way, they provide an engaging “Christie’s Corner” on the history of the Church’s name, field listener mail, and make their unique brand of sports-and-church-culture asides.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Banter, Humor, and "Christie's Corner" Introduction

(00:01 – 13:00)

• The hosts open with lighthearted teasing and reference podcast inside jokes and running gags.
• They introduce the episode’s first main segment, "Christie’s Corner," setting up a focus on church history questions that can make listeners "look smart in Sunday School."
• Quote: “When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you’re cool… it’s Christie’s Corner.” (B, 06:13)

2. The Church’s Name: Historical Changes and Revelatory Claims

(13:00 – 27:01)

Context: Kirtland’s Crisis

• Collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society (church banking venture) and the wider Panic of 1837 cause economic chaos and widespread apostasy—including leading members of the Twelve.
• Joseph Smith and remaining faithful move church headquarters from Ohio to Missouri, specifically Far West, under threat and divine command.
• Quote: “Things collapse pretty quickly in Kirtland… God commands Joseph Smith to leave Kirtland… and go to Missouri.” (B, 11:51)

Evolution of the Name

• Original name (1830): The Church of Christ, referencing 3 Nephi 27 and early priesthood licenses.
• Change (May 1834): At a church conference, led by Joseph Smith, the name is changed to “The Church of the Latter Day Saints.”
  • Doctrine & Covenants (1835) edition reflects this change.
  • Notably, for four years (1834–1838), the official name did not include “Jesus Christ.”
  • Implication: This historical period complicates the common missionary teaching that Jesus’ name must always be in the “true church.”
  • Quote: “If we’re going to argue any church that doesn’t have the name of Jesus Christ in the title cannot be ordained of God… there’s kind of a four-year period where there was absolutely a church ordained by God that… didn’t have the word Jesus Christ in the title.” (B, ~25:10)
• Final name (April 1838): Revelation at Far West (D&C 115) settles the official name: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
  • President Nelson’s modern emphasis echoed as being rooted in this development.
  • Quote: “When Jesus is telling us what he wants his church to be called, we may decide to give that a little more than a passing glance.” (B, ~26:32)
• The segment ends with advice for Sunday School participants to leverage this historical context for better engagement.

3. Listener Emails: Mailbag & International Shoutouts

(27:01 – 36:49)

Mailbag and Mission Connection

• Listeners write with humorous, wide-ranging subjects (“Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, Paris Idaho, rice tariffs, and all that filthy lucre…”).
• Shoutouts to missionaries (e.g., Sister Boyer in Tucson, Sister missionaries in the Philippines), reflecting podcast’s global audience.
• Ongoing jokes about fantasy football, “apostasy cups” as missionary teaching tools, and cultural crossovers (Australia’s footy leagues, American sports miseries, etc.).

Memorable Moment

• Playing with the idea of an "Apostasy Cups" anti-Mormon bar in Salt Lake (B, 20:12–21:24).
  • Quote: “Apostasy cups… sounds like a really, really good name for an anti-Mormon bar. Oh, my goodness.” (B, 20:12)
• Lots of self-deprecating humor about their own (supposedly inferior) teaching and social standing.

4. The Saints and US National Politics after the Mexican War

(36:49 – 68:28)

Setting: Political Upheaval

• Mexican War ends (Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, 1848); the US gains huge new territories (California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado).
• The Missouri Compromise line (1820) had kept slavery out of the northern territories, but new land acquisition reopens the bitter debate about the extension of slavery.

The Saints’ Role in Territorial Politics

• The Saints, settled in Salt Lake, become one of the major populations in the vast new region.
• They vote for Whig candidate Zachary Taylor in hopes of favorable treatment, especially after Democratic President Polk’s duplicity (calling the Mormon Battalion but not delivering on promises).
  • Quote: “The Saints were loyal Americans… Who is going to be more willing to reward the fact that the Saints are loyal Americans… than Zachary Taylor himself, the head of the army?” (B, 47:41)

Taylor’s Secret Mega-State Plan

• President Taylor, trying to avoid a slavery crisis, hatches a (secret) plan: skip territorial government and admit two “mega-states,” California and New Mexico, each encompassing today’s Southwest—including Utah.
  • Taylor’s emissary, General John Wilson (from Missouri!), negotiates with Brigham Young and the Saints.
  • The Saints, despite their suspicions and painful recent experience, agree to join this mega-California scheme, on the condition they might eventually have autonomy.
  • Quote: “[Wilson] at once delivered him the message… that they should receive from the [Taylor] administration the same… protection with all other good citizens, that they should not be molested…” (B, ~54:19)

Foiled by Ambition—a Twist of Fate

• Taylor’s plan collapses when his California emissary, Thomas Butler King, arrives too late—the Californians have already voted for a state constitution excluding Utah, and King prioritizes his political ambitions.
  • The Saints are shut out. Taylor’s “mega-state” vision fails.
  • Quote: “Wilson loses his mind on King because King… he just has a special order from the President and is just not following it because he just doesn’t feel like it…” (B, 63:11)

Why the Bitterness?

• Context for the episode’s series theme emerges: the Saints’ support of Taylor, their willingness to join “mega-California,” and their ultimate political betrayal, all precede the folklore and statements denouncing Taylor as “dead and in hell.”
  • The episode tees up next week’s deep dive on William Smith’s memoriam to Congress and its fallout.

5. Closing Banter & Preview

(68:28 – End)

• Light-hearted bemoaning of episode length and a wink toward recurring podcast inside jokes ("We need to get back to angels having wings. They don't.").
• Teasing that the next episode will explore how Zachary Taylor’s reaction to the Saints’ failed petition will earn him a notorious place in Mormon lore.
• Appreciation for international listeners and laughter about sports loyalties (Collingwood Magpies, Brisbane Lions, etc.).
• Memorable sign-off: “Thanks so much for listening… Wendy, what more do you want from us?” (B, 68:44)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “When you want to look smart in Sunday school… it’s Christie’s Corner.” (B, 06:13)
• “[Joseph] is commanded by God to leave Kirtland and commands all of the other faithful members… to go to Missouri.” (B, 11:51)
• “If we’re going to argue any church that doesn’t have the name of Jesus Christ in the title cannot be ordained of God… there’s kind of a four-year period… that… didn’t have the word Jesus Christ in the title.” (B, ~25:10)
• "When Jesus is telling us what he wants his church to be called, we may decide to give that a little more than a passing glance." (B, ~26:32)
• “Apostasy cups… sounds like a really, really good name for an anti-Mormon bar. Oh, my goodness.” (B, 20:12)
• “The Saints were loyal Americans… Who is going to be more willing to reward… than Zachary Taylor himself, the head of the army?” (B, 47:41)
• “[Wilson] at once delivered him the message… that they should receive from the [Taylor] administration the same… protection with all other good citizens, that they should not be molested…” (B, ~54:19)
• “Wilson loses his mind on King because King… he just has a special order from the President and is just not following it because he just doesn’t feel like it…” (B, 63:11)

Segment Timestamps (approx.)

• 00:01 – 13:00: Intro banter & Christie’s Corner setup
• 13:00 – 27:01: Name of the Church history/debate
• 27:01 – 36:49: Listener mail, missionary shoutouts, cultural asides
• 36:49 – 68:28: The Saints, Zachary Taylor & US territorial politics
• 68:28 – End: Wrap-up, humor, and next episode tease

Summary Takeaways

• The LDS Church's name has evolved multiple times, with significant periods when it did not include “Jesus Christ”—crucial context for anyone teaching, studying, or defending the faith.
• The Saints’ saga after leaving Kirtland is deeply intertwined with the formation of the American West, the political fallout after the Mexican War, and the broader national slavery debate.
• The Saints’ willingness to compromise and join Taylor’s mega-state plan ultimately backfires, fueling the folklore and memorable condemnations of national leaders by disillusioned church members.
• The episode is richly detailed, often humorous, and underscores how deeply LDS history is woven into broader American events.