S5E43 Dead and in Hell Part 3

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast – S5E43: "Dead and in Hell Part 3"
October 16, 2025 – Hosted by Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc continue their deep dive into the tumultuous period of early Latter-day Saint history, focusing on the aftermath of the Kirtland collapse, shifts in church headquarters and naming, and the Saints' unexpected role in the regional politics of post-Mexican War America. With their trademark blend of humor, banter, and scholarly insight, the hosts explore the real historical sources and untold stories that illuminate the Saints’ disillusionment with US political leaders—leading up to infamous statements about figures like President Zachary Taylor being "dead and in hell." Along the way, they provide an engaging “Christie’s Corner” on the history of the Church’s name, field listener mail, and make their unique brand of sports-and-church-culture asides.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Banter, Humor, and "Christie's Corner" Introduction

(00:01 – 13:00)

• The hosts open with lighthearted teasing and reference podcast inside jokes and running gags.
• They introduce the episode’s first main segment, "Christie’s Corner," setting up a focus on church history questions that can make listeners "look smart in Sunday School."
• Quote: “When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you’re cool… it’s Christie’s Corner.” (B, 06:13)

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2. The Church’s Name: Historical Changes and Revelatory Claims

(13:00 – 27:01)

Context: Kirtland’s Crisis

• Collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society (church banking venture) and the wider Panic of 1837 cause economic chaos and widespread apostasy—including leading members of the Twelve.
• Joseph Smith and remaining faithful move church headquarters from Ohio to Missouri, specifically Far West, under threat and divine command.
• Quote: “Things collapse pretty quickly in Kirtland… God commands Joseph Smith to leave Kirtland… and go to Missouri.” (B, 11:51)

Evolution of the Name

• Original name (1830): The Church of Christ, referencing 3 Nephi 27 and early priesthood licenses.
• Change (May 1834): At a church conference, led by Joseph Smith, the name is changed to “The Church of the Latter Day Saints.”
  • Doctrine & Covenants (1835) edition reflects this change.
  • Notably, for four years (1834–1838), the official name did not include “Jesus Christ.”
  • Implication: This historical period complicates the common missionary teaching that Jesus’ name must always be in the “true church.”
  • Quote: “If we’re going to argue any church that doesn’t have the name of Jesus Christ in the title cannot be ordained of God… there’s kind of a four-year period where there was absolutely a church ordained by God that… didn’t have the word Jesus Christ in the title.” (B, ~25:10)
• Final name (April 1838): Revelation at Far West (D&C 115) settles the official name: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
  • President Nelson’s modern emphasis echoed as being rooted in this development.
  • Quote: “When Jesus is telling us what he wants his church to be called, we may decide to give that a little more than a passing glance.” (B, ~26:32)
• The segment ends with advice for Sunday School participants to leverage this historical context for better engagement.

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3. Listener Emails: Mailbag & International Shoutouts

(27:01 – 36:49)

Mailbag and Mission Connection

• Listeners write with humorous, wide-ranging subjects (“Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, Paris Idaho, rice tariffs, and all that filthy lucre…”).
• Shoutouts to missionaries (e.g., Sister Boyer in Tucson, Sister missionaries in the Philippines), reflecting podcast’s global audience.
• Ongoing jokes about fantasy football, “apostasy cups” as missionary teaching tools, and cultural crossovers (Australia’s footy leagues, American sports miseries, etc.).

Memorable Moment

• Playing with the idea of an "Apostasy Cups" anti-Mormon bar in Salt Lake (B, 20:12–21:24).
  • Quote: “Apostasy cups… sounds like a really, really good name for an anti-Mormon bar. Oh, my goodness.” (B, 20:12)
• Lots of self-deprecating humor about their own (supposedly inferior) teaching and social standing.

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4. The Saints and US National Politics after the Mexican War

(36:49 – 68:28)

Setting: Political Upheaval

• Mexican War ends (Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, 1848); the US gains huge new territories (California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado).
• The Missouri Compromise line (1820) had kept slavery out of the northern territories, but new land acquisition reopens the bitter debate about the extension of slavery.

The Saints’ Role in Territorial Politics

• The Saints, settled in Salt Lake, become one of the major populations in the vast new region.
• They vote for Whig candidate Zachary Taylor in hopes of favorable treatment, especially after Democratic President Polk’s duplicity (calling the Mormon Battalion but not delivering on promises).
  • Quote: “The Saints were loyal Americans… Who is going to be more willing to reward the fact that the Saints are loyal Americans… than Zachary Taylor himself, the head of the army?” (B, 47:41)

Taylor’s Secret Mega-State Plan

• President Taylor, trying to avoid a slavery crisis, hatches a (secret) plan: skip territorial government and admit two “mega-states,” California and New Mexico, each encompassing today’s Southwest—including Utah.
  • Taylor’s emissary, General John Wilson (from Missouri!), negotiates with Brigham Young and the Saints.
  • The Saints, despite their suspicions and painful recent experience, agree to join this mega-California scheme, on the condition they might eventually have autonomy.
  • Quote: “[Wilson] at once delivered him the message… that they should receive from the [Taylor] administration the same… protection with all other good citizens, that they should not be molested…” (B, ~54:19)

Foiled by Ambition—a Twist of Fate

• Taylor’s plan collapses when his California emissary, Thomas Butler King, arrives too late—the Californians have already voted for a state constitution excluding Utah, and King prioritizes his political ambitions.
  • The Saints are shut out. Taylor’s “mega-state” vision fails.
  • Quote: “Wilson loses his mind on King because King… he just has a special order from the President and is just not following it because he just doesn’t feel like it…” (B, 63:11)

Why the Bitterness?

• Context for the episode’s series theme emerges: the Saints’ support of Taylor, their willingness to join “mega-California,” and their ultimate political betrayal, all precede the folklore and statements denouncing Taylor as “dead and in hell.”
  • The episode tees up next week’s deep dive on William Smith’s memoriam to Congress and its fallout.

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5. Closing Banter & Preview

(68:28 – End)

• Light-hearted bemoaning of episode length and a wink toward recurring podcast inside jokes ("We need to get back to angels having wings. They don't.").
• Teasing that the next episode will explore how Zachary Taylor’s reaction to the Saints’ failed petition will earn him a notorious place in Mormon lore.
• Appreciation for international listeners and laughter about sports loyalties (Collingwood Magpies, Brisbane Lions, etc.).
• Memorable sign-off: “Thanks so much for listening… Wendy, what more do you want from us?” (B, 68:44)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “When you want to look smart in Sunday school… it’s Christie’s Corner.” (B, 06:13)
• “[Joseph] is commanded by God to leave Kirtland and commands all of the other faithful members… to go to Missouri.” (B, 11:51)
• “If we’re going to argue any church that doesn’t have the name of Jesus Christ in the title cannot be ordained of God… there’s kind of a four-year period… that… didn’t have the word Jesus Christ in the title.” (B, ~25:10)
• "When Jesus is telling us what he wants his church to be called, we may decide to give that a little more than a passing glance." (B, ~26:32)
• “Apostasy cups… sounds like a really, really good name for an anti-Mormon bar. Oh, my goodness.” (B, 20:12)
• “The Saints were loyal Americans… Who is going to be more willing to reward… than Zachary Taylor himself, the head of the army?” (B, 47:41)
• “[Wilson] at once delivered him the message… that they should receive from the [Taylor] administration the same… protection with all other good citizens, that they should not be molested…” (B, ~54:19)
• “Wilson loses his mind on King because King… he just has a special order from the President and is just not following it because he just doesn’t feel like it…” (B, 63:11)

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Segment Timestamps (approx.)

• 00:01 – 13:00: Intro banter & Christie’s Corner setup
• 13:00 – 27:01: Name of the Church history/debate
• 27:01 – 36:49: Listener mail, missionary shoutouts, cultural asides
• 36:49 – 68:28: The Saints, Zachary Taylor & US territorial politics
• 68:28 – End: Wrap-up, humor, and next episode tease

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Summary Takeaways

• The LDS Church's name has evolved multiple times, with significant periods when it did not include “Jesus Christ”—crucial context for anyone teaching, studying, or defending the faith.
• The Saints’ saga after leaving Kirtland is deeply intertwined with the formation of the American West, the political fallout after the Mexican War, and the broader national slavery debate.
• The Saints’ willingness to compromise and join Taylor’s mega-state plan ultimately backfires, fueling the folklore and memorable condemnations of national leaders by disillusioned church members.
• The episode is richly detailed, often humorous, and underscores how deeply LDS history is woven into broader American events.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[B]

Foreign. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmot. And my co host, who used to be my friend, just tried to get me to say the wrong name of the podcast as I did our introduction, Dr. Richard Leduc. Our.

[C]

Our friendship barely hangs by a gossamer's thread.

[B]

Yeah, the same, the same web. The same strand of spider web that Jonathan Edwards saw humanity dangling over the flames and sinners and hands and angry God. That's where we're at. Because as the recordings counting down as we're about to go live to the billions and billions of four or five people, he says the wrong name of the podcast. Hoping, I think that I would say the wrong name. No, not hoping. He was actually just mocking me because the last time we recorded, I happened to say the name of one of our premium podcasts that we haven't recorded in a year and a half and somehow I said it instead of search these commandments. Is that about right, Richard?

[C]

No, that's you. You nailed it. Hey Garrett, thanks for having me back. So excited to be here. As, as we move forward, ever forward on who's Dead and in Hell. We are excited to lots of people.

[B]

Lots of people there.

[C]

Yes. No, it's very exciting now, Garrett, we're going to get right into it. We've got a Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. We've got Christie's Corner. Do you want to just jump right into Christie's Corner? The name of the church, I think is what you wanted to talk about.

[B]

Should we do Christie's Corner first? I mean, we did have Mindy. She, she found out, you know, that the reason why she became a Stake Relief Society president was both our gambling tips and also because she was using the Christie's Corner.

[C]

Absolutely. So let's try.

[B]

We told her that she should start, you know, throwing King Follett sermon in places and then get herself released.

[C]

I was so on the premium that is going to drop on this coming Sunday. It was one of my favorite. I was laughing pretty hard at the idea of how you were as a missionary just starting every. It's like, hey, so what are your guys thoughts on.

[B]

Do you guys like even believe in the Bible and then right into it, right into the King Paul sermon, right into God dwells in everlasting burnings. They're like, I was just, I mean they could be like, they could be like, you know, do you guys, what's the address of where your, where your church is? Like you suppose God was God to all eternity? I will refute that idea.

[C]

No, but are you bringing the bread for sacrament?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, so let's go ahead and go into that. So that it, you know, I'm assuming at this point Mindy, who named her fantasy football team, what was it? Littner?

[C]

Litner?

[B]

Yeah, something like that. Something like that.

[C]

And her team is really good by the way.

[B]

She's got a great, she's got an amazing team. She has to be in a league with like only four people to have the same. Like, like my son's in a fantasy football team with six people. Are you? And so his team is like, like I see his team and it's just stacked like crazy.

[C]

Like Mindy could have 16 team, 16 teams in her league.

[B]

You don't know Mindy, we need to know how many people you have in your fantasy football.

[C]

Your team is stacked because.

[B]

Yeah, because, because the worst player on her team is Ashton Genty. The worst player. That's pretty good because he's had an up and down rookie year.

[C]

Yeah, well, he plays for the Raiders. Raiders are terrible.

[B]

He can say that because the Bears pulled out that victory.

[C]

They did. It was a good win. Um, but the, I mean the Raiders, you know, you're not good when you lose to them and then you get fired. That's how you know.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's what, that's why Northwestern knows itself very well that if you, if you, if you lose to Northwestern, better hope you have a good buyout clause.

[C]

It's always been, it's always been my favorite part of like. So we obviously love the military and they're, they're great and then. But if you lose to a service academy, you're fired. What is the state of service academy football? Where that's always the case. How dare you lose to army. You're gone.

[B]

I think the main reason why is that you're not allowed to have 500 pound linemen in, you know, as a Marine. Air force. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's flying a plane and there's just constantly the red alarms going off that they, they don't, they don't have enough lift. I mean, no, I don't think that that's. I always Thought about that with David Robinson. I'm pretty sure he went to the Naval Academy to work on submarines. And then he grew seven inches or something in the Naval Academy. Yeah, so. So he went into the Naval Academy like 6, 5, 6, 6, which is already too tall to get on a sub. And then he came out of the Naval Academy seven foot tall.

[C]

That's funny.

[B]

The Admiral.

[C]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So let's. Let's jump into Christie's Corner and. And off to the races we go.

[B]

When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool, it's Christie's Corner. Well, we have a range of revelations that we could talk about. Many of these are revelations that come after Joseph Smith moves from Kirtland to Missouri. So you have this entire period of the church history where you have two locales of the church, nearly all of the revelations, and Joseph are going to be emanating from Kirtland. That's the headquarters of the church. It's where Joseph lives. It's where the Kirtland Temple is built. But in the summer and fall of 1837, things collapse pretty quickly in Kirtland. The Kirtland Safety Society, this banking society, collapses, and many members of the church lose a lot of their money that they had invested in it. You also have a wider general economic depression called the panic of 1837. And it's an economic depression that the United States is going to be in for roughly five years. I mean, it is not a quick thing. So you have localized economic problems. You also have these external economic problems. Well, the apostasies kind of feed on themselves. Right. So you have many high profile members in Kirtland who are so upset over the Kirtland Safety Society collapsing that they apostatize, including some of Joseph's closest friends and associates, including some of the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. At the same time, Joseph has been dealing with a rising level of insubordination. I don't. I mean, that makes it sound like he's a. It makes it sound like he's like a commissar, the Red Army. And, you know, people have to make sure that they are praising Comrade Stahl in the right way. That's not what I mean.

[C]

Well, so, by the way, that is a perfect point for me to say. So. So the. The Navy limit is six, six. And. And when David Robinson started, he was one inch over. But you'll be happy to know that the Superintendent over Navy. They waived it.

[B]

So. So for some odd reason, just. He somehow got an exemption that we don't know why he got it.

[C]

Academics. He was. I mean, he was smart.

[B]

He was brilliant.

[C]

He. Yeah, he was really smart.

[B]

Still alive, so I shouldn't say was.

[C]

I mean, well, maybe less so.

[B]

I mean, he pro. He did take that. That shot from Charles Barkley that one time. So maybe.

[C]

What's CTE in. In the NBA? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. But whatever it is, I'm pretty sure that I. I'm. I'm pretty sure that that Agent Zero has it. He's. That's the only way to explain his. His actions later in life.

[C]

Gilbert Arenas.

[B]

Yeah, he brought the assault weapons to the locker room.

[C]

It was. I believe it was a handgun. You're overstating it.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Gun to Work, Garrett.

[B]

Yeah, and it wasn't. And it was not Bring a gun to work Day.

[C]

No, it was Bring a Daughter to work day. And he was confused.

[B]

Oh, see, that's the. See, he named his daughter Gun. And that's where the confusion.

[C]

That he named his gun Daughter.

[B]

Yeah, well, that. You know, things are going to happen. Look, you play for a team called the Bullets. He's just represent Wizards.

[C]

They were the Wizards.

[B]

Were they the Wizards by then?

[C]

They were the Wizards by then.

[B]

The Bullets. My whole life growing up.

[C]

Oh, yeah, for sure. They were terrible too, by the way.

[B]

But they were not. You know who was better than them was the Washington Senators when they played the. The Globetrotters.

[C]

It was the Generals.

[B]

The Generals, yeah. There was a Senators as well.

[C]

A team against the Globetrotters.

[B]

I don't know if it was against the Globe Trotters. No, it's the Generals against the. Against the Globetrotters. But there was a Washington Senators team. Yeah, I need you to look that up.

[C]

Okay, well, we'll look that up. I got all these David Robinson facts.

[B]

I need you to put our crack research staff on that. Don't you have multiple unemployed sons that could be helping.

[C]

I only have one unemployed son. He's looking for work at the byu.

[B]

The other one, which one's unemployed?

[C]

Rigged in. Andrew's a TA for actually the proudest moment of a father's life. He's a TA for American heritage. I don't know that I can be more proud.

[B]

So he's a teaching assistant and you're calling that employed boy? The standards have fallen.

[C]

He works 15 hours a week or.

[B]

Whatever it is best. 15 hours a week. He fills out his time card for 15 hours a week. Yeah, I was gonna say.

[C]

Yes, that's right. Washington Senators. So there are a couple of different teams. Yeah, yeah. 1901 to.

[B]

They were a baseball team.

[C]

60. Yes.

[B]

So I know them from the history of America through baseball.

[C]

Yes, they were baseball teams. Yes.

[B]

A year on the Senators baseball team.

[C]

What's that?

[B]

What was the year on the Senator's baseball team?

[C]

1901 to 1960. And then looks like 1961 to 1971. All right, I got to get into this. Why don't you do the Christie's Corner? I'll get the. The Washington Post.

[B]

I'm going to work on Joseph moving to Kirtland, trying desperately to find a Washington senator that would listen to him now. So things really collapse all at once. And so you have this huge shift in the Doctrine and Covenants. I know this is more than just what you're going to be able to say in Sunday school, but it is important for your own personal study that the reason why things shift from revelations being received in Kirtland to all of these revelations being received in Missouri is In January of 1838, with all of these high profile apostasies, with all the growing threats of mob violence, with people taking over the temple and proclaiming it there, is like Warren Parish did, and trying to start his own new church. God commands Joseph Smith to leave Kirtland and commands all of the other faithful members of the church to leave and to go to Missouri. So Joseph leaves, comes to Far west, and for the next, you know, six or seven months, Far west is going to be the headquarters of the church right up until the Mormon War in Missouri. So Joseph left this terrible situation in Kirtland only to end up in Missouri. And I've always said, if you're in a terrible situation, it rarely gets better by going to Missouri. But in this case, there are these. These revelations that are received as all of the saints are now coming together. Well, Doctrine Covenant, section 115, this revelation that is, declares the city of Far west, is going to have a temple built on it. Therefore, I command you to build a house unto me. Also is going to reference the name of the church. Now, this was something, you know, in honor of President Nelson, this was something that he felt very strongly about. And, you know, frankly, it's only been in the past five years that all of us have stopped calling ourselves Mormons. I mean, we probably still do, you know, behind, you know, behind closed doors, but out in public, every time someone says, hey, you Mormons, we're like, actually we're members of the church. We say out the whole name and they're like, what? And then you're like, people used to call us Mormons. Oh yeah, Mormons. And then, then you know, so it's always a depressing thing unless you're talking to a cab driver in, in Peru who happens to know the proper name of the church, but not, not the nickname. So when the church is first established, it was called the Church of Christ. Now if you go to third Nephi chapter 27, it's one of the disputes that they're actually having. What do we call this church? Lord, we would that this is verse 3 of 3 Nephi 27. Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church. For there are disputations among the people concerning this matter. And he says to them that, that it's to be called Christchurch. Have you not read the Scriptures which say you must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name. For by this name shall you be called at the last day. And howbeit my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses's name, then it's Moses Church. And if it be called in the name of a man, that be the church of a man. But if it be called in my name, then it is my church, if it so be there built upon my gospel. And so Jesus declares that the Book of Mormon references that, right? That those who are baptized in the name of Jesus were called the Church of Christ. So it is not a surprising thing that when they first organize the church, it is called the Church of Christ. We actually have early, early, early priesthood licenses. We've got, you know, John Whitmer's priesthood license from like June of 1830, that, that's what it says. It says that this is Joseph Sr's priesthood license from June of 1830. This signifies the bearer is a priest in this Church of Christ established and regularly organized in these last days on the 6th day of April. And so goes on to say that, but the Church of Christ is what it is called and that's the name of the church for the first four years that the church exists when it's re established. So you have that in doctrine covenant section 20. So when you're reading early church documents and it makes a reference to that they all became members of the Church of Christ. I know that we still say that now kind of informally. Oh, come and join Jesus Christ Church, which again, that's true, we all believe that. But a lot of times when you're reading an early document from 1831 or 32 or 33 and they say Church of Christ, they don't mean it in the generic sense that you do today. They mean in. That's the literal official name of the church. It's the Church of Christ. Now In May of 1834, they make a decision to change the name of the church. They're all in a church conference. And this is what it reads. After prayer, the conference proceeded to discuss the subject of names and appellations. When a motion was made by Sidney Rigdon and seconded by Newell K. Whitney, this church be known hereafter by the name of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Appropriate remarks were delivered by some of the members, after which the motion was put to put by the moderator and passed by unanimous vote. So in a church conference May 3, 1834, in Kirtland, Ohio, with Joseph Smith Jr. As the moderator of the conference. Okay, so I've even heard people say, well, I'm not sure Joseph Smith would have been okay with that. Well, he's the one who told the conference to vote on it. So me he was probably aware, I would guess, that he's like, hey, what is this? What is this name change thing? They're trying to change the name out from under him so they can get a hold of all of the debt of the church. They're like, if we can just name it something else, oh, that debt is ours. Because at this point, they're still trying to build the Kirtland Temple and trying to buy land. And they lost all their land in Jackson County. 1834 is a year of poverty for the church for sure. Resolve that this conference recommended the conference of the church abroad that making transmittance the means of the proceedings each minute shall be made out under the above title. And that title being the Church of the Latter Day Saints. And in fact, if you get an original edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, which was published in 1835, the title page is Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, carefully selected from the revelations of God and compiled by Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Fred G. Woods, presiding elders of said church. So this is one of those things that I knew when I went on my mission. That was probably information to not know. This is second only to trying to lead with the King Follett sermon on a door approach. Because on my mission it seemed like every companion that I had tried to make A really big deal out of what the name of our church was saying that if your church doesn't have the word Jesus Christ in it, then it can't possibly be the true church. And I think this was spurred along by the fact that we had a set of apostasy cups. Did you have apostasy cups, Richard?

[C]

Oh, yeah, for sure. You had the apostles down at the bottom or whatever.

[B]

So for those of you who don't know apostasy cups, I mean, it sounds like a really, really good name for an anti Mormon bar. Oh, my goodness.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

We will be millionaires.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. In Salt Lake cups.

[B]

Come on.

[C]

We'd only sell like. Like polygamy Porter ale.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Everything would be some kind of tongue in cheek laughing at the ancestors of ours who sacrificed everything so that I could come here and be a jerk.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

It is hilarious that the very people who are living because their great great grandparents brought them through the wilderness and out of Han's Mill and out of Nauvoo so that they could be here so they could make fun of the religion that saved their existence. It's great. That's great. One of the best parts about being a Latter Day Saint. So these apostasy cups. Yeah. You do it as a visual demonstration of the apostasy. That's why you call them the apostasy cups. You take a bunch of red cups. Although if you do use red cups, since red cups signify in Wisconsin, something very, very, very different. You come in and you pull out a bunch of red solo cups and people start laughing because they only see those as ways to drink alcohol.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I believe there's actually even a country song about red solo cups.

[C]

It's a Toby Keith song.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it is, actually. And the only reason that could be a popular song is if there's enough people who drink alcohol out of red cups.

[C]

It's a. It's a pretty good song. It is.

[B]

You know, it's a really good song. If we could get a little bit of a sounder of that.

[C]

I don't. I don't know.

[B]

The, The.

[C]

The. The. The Keith estate is very litigious.

[B]

Well, ever since he passed.

[C]

Yes. For him. We will not. We will not play that.

[B]

How about should have Been a Cowboy?

[C]

We're gonna play that. I love that song. For sure.

[B]

Well, so you. You'd. On these cups, you'd label them with all the apostles names, and then you'd put different attributes of the church of Christ that Christ established in The New Testament and, and like different offices of the church, like deacons and teachers and stuff like that, and different doctrines. All of these with, with New Testament biblical scriptures. And the point is you would demonstrate to people that, that the things we believe, the things we're teaching, they all have biblical precedent. But as you took the foundation of this tower of cups that you'd made away, as you took more and more apostles away, eventually it collapsed. Well, one of the points on the apostasy cups I had anyway. I don't know, Richard. I've seen multiple variations of apostasy cups, let's just put it that way.

[C]

Did you just write names or did you cut out pictures and tape them to the cups?

[B]

Okay, so I didn't have access to any, you know, photos of Thomas, but I, I, so I just did, I just did scriptures and names, but I meant images.

[C]

You know what? Well, first of all, Paul was always taking selfies. So there's tons of Paul P. They.

[B]

Call him Paul Influencer, the Apostle of Tarsus. That's Paul Influencer of Tarsus, that's what they call him. So it was a great visual. I mean, and it really, because eventually the tower collapses. It got kids engaged, but it also demonstrated in a really good applicable way, look, if the church is founded upon a foundation of apostles and prophets, and the apostles and prophets are dead, well then where's its foundation? Right? But one of those cups, at least in the set that I had, was that the name of the church. It was named after Jesus and they took it from Philippians or something. I can't remember. It's one of those New Testament things. I can't remember. I wasn't the one who made the cups. I was using previously made cups. And so it was quite often that I have a companion that would try to make the point that, well, you know, that it can't be a true church of Jesus Christ if it doesn't have Jesus name in it. Because that's what the Book of Mormon says. And I would be like, well, actually, ah, boy. So There was this four year period from May of 1834 until, until April of 1838 when the church was actually just called the Church of the Latter Day Saints and it didn't have the name of Jesus in the title. So if we're going to argue that any church that doesn't have the name of Jesus in the title cannot be ordained of God. I mean there's kind of a four year period where there was absolutely a church ordained by God that for four years didn't have the word Jesus Christ at the time. So that's. So you have church of Christ, 1830-1834-1834-1838. You have church of the Latter Day Saints. And then in doctrine covenant section 115, April 26, 1838. For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And so that's how you get the name of the church we have today. And, you know, it really is kind of a melding of both, right? So you have Church of Christ, and then you had Church of the Latter Day Saints, and then both of them are melded together by revelation. And I think it's one of the reasons why President Nelson felt so strongly about the name. You know, we're not Lutherans, didn't have a revelation saying, hey, you need to call yourself the Evangelical Lutheran Synod. You know, that's just. It was a way of describing what their doctrines were. We had Jesus himself speak to Joseph Smith and say, this is what you will call my church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I think when Jesus is telling us what he wants his church to be called, we may decide to give that a little bit more than a passing glance. So is that enough to get someone at least up to Sunday School president.

[C]

At least a counselor.

[B]

A counselor. So we are now just trying to pull people out of the dregs of nursery and move them into Sunday school. Second counselor. That's what we. We used to have high aspirations. We. We got Mindy to being a Stake Relief Society president.

[C]

This is true.

[B]

Elder Abel became an apostle, for all we know by now, just because of this podcast.

[C]

I had dinner with him a week ago. I'm pretty confident that has not happened.

[B]

Well, he wouldn't be allowed to tell you.

[C]

This is true. And we are excited for the new first presidency. This happened yesterday, right? Very exciting. President Oaks and President Eyring and President Christofferson. That'll be fantastic.

[B]

Yeah, I've gone to speak in Elder Christofferson's brother's stake.

[C]

This is funny. You. You spoke. They were doing, like, a series of firesides, and you spoke the week before he was coming.

[B]

Yeah, it was. I mean, it's not the best timing because I believe the week before me, a member of the general authority 70 spoke. And then my week was me. And after me was Elder Christopherson. That's a pretty big trump card to pull when you're. When you're his brother. Right. When you're Able to be like, I guess I might be able to get elder Christofferson here, but you're the human.

[C]

Form of a compliment sandwich.

[B]

Yeah, I am. It was like general authority garbage in the middle. General authority. That's what it was. I mean, I think I wore a white shirt to that one, though.

[C]

You did, you did, you did, you did. I thought you were great. Brian was there. Friend of the show. Brian. Yeah. And his lovely bride who tolerates us. And.

[B]

Well, I mean, they don't listen to the show anymore, but back then she never did.

[C]

But she was always nice about it.

[B]

Yeah, she was very nice about hating our show.

[C]

I don't know that she hates it, but.

[B]

Well, she hated the fact that he liked it. I think they.

[C]

They purchased. They purchased gifts for you and for me for our. Our wedding anniversaries.

[B]

Yes, they're very, very. I mean, I don't even buy gifts for my wedding anniversary.

[C]

Oh. But it was. It was very nice of.

[B]

Well, usually we're on a tour. That's why they did it. It was very good.

[C]

Yeah, we were. We were in Spring Springfield, Illinois.

[B]

So we need you, Sarah, to take this information. And this is your chance. This is easy. Name of the church is changing. You get a quote, President Nelson in this, and you will be Stake Relief Society President. This is it. This is the way you do it.

[C]

So the original Washington Senators, 1901-1960, and then they left in 1960 and became the Minnesota Twins. And then in 1961, they said, hey, let's put an expansion team there, which they did. Instead of putting the expansion team in Minnesota, they. They moved to Minnesota. Then they put the expansion team the following year back in as the Washington Senators. Again, 1961 to 1971, where they left to become the Texas Rangers. So.

[B]

Well, so if. If we know anything, it's a great way to get a major league team in your state is to have Washington name another team the Senators.

[C]

That's why I think that when they came back, there was some call for the Washington Grays. There was some call for the Washington Senators, and I think they went the Nationals. Because they're like, look, if we call them the Senators, they're gonna. They're gonna get voted out, essentially.

[B]

And you know who understands this? Every Cleveland Browns fan.

[C]

You know what? They gotta love that Baltimore's as bad as they are this year. Right.

[B]

Well, now, but, like, imagine that you're Cleveland Browns fan. Desperate, desperate, desperate for a Super Bowl. And then they leave. Yeah, they leave and become one of the most dominant teams of the 2000s.

[C]

Yeah. Well, so this. This email in the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag comes from Brother Boyer. I say Brother Boyer because, you know, Sister Boyer is the missionary. So I don't want to. You know, I. I don't want to. I don't want to call his name Matt and then say Sister Boyer. Then people would be able to put those together. So I don't want to do that.

[B]

Did you just say his name, though, when you said it? Is that a theoretical placeholder name?

[C]

I don't want to do that. It's Brother Boyer. I don't want to say Brother Boyer.

[B]

Some first name that we don't know. Right.

[C]

Because we don't give.

[B]

You are trying to track him down. Good luck.

[C]

So the subject is. This is well done. This is the kitchen sink approach, Garrett. The subject is Rex's elders, Quorum president, Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, Paris Idaho, rice tariffs, and all that filthy lucre. Dear Dr. Dirkmod and Doctor, to my surprise, as I'm only on Season 4, Episode 41 Leduc, now that I have your attention, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your time and talents and resources in a truly capitalistic fashion in search of financial freedom. In all seriousness, thank you for all that you were doing and all your testimonies and the minds you were expanding. And then they asked for a shout out for Sister Boyer, who's in the Tucson, Arizona, mission, Spanish speaking, and we've extended that. The. The. The Google access to them.

[B]

And then I wonder if Riker knows her. Probably.

[C]

Did you know? I mean, when you weren't the ap, did you know all the missionaries in your mission? I. I didn't.

[B]

I mean, I knew. I mean, I think once you become a zone leader, you at least I think names of other missionaries become kind of familiar.

[C]

Yeah, but part of the issue is that toward the end of my mission, it's all kids. And I say kids like, they're like, a year and a half younger than me.

[B]

This is actually the conversation I had with Riker yesterday, because that was his P day. And he's like, yeah, everybody's just, like, brand new. I mean, everyone, like, more than half the mission's younger than me. And I'm like, all right, slow it on down.

[C]

Yeah, you're nine months older, bro.

[B]

What do you mean, your year, Mark? You're not the godfather. Doling out, like, maybe you come here, you respect my family. I mean, Riker reminds me of how the New York Saints reacted to the Kirkwood Saints who had just been baptized and Had a bunch of weird ideas because the New York Saints were like, well, when you've been a member of the church as long as we have been, two months, like eight months. You mean like four more weeks. What are you talking about? Parley Pratt's like, well, I mean, I'm a seasoned veteran in the church. You got baptized in September and then went on a mission in October. You're. You don't know what you know, but, you know, he was very effective. Very effective. As we've been talking.

[C]

Well, so missionary email or Google Drive access granted to Sister Boyer. This next one comes from friend of the show, Wendy. And it's. It's relatively short, but she's always hilarious. She is a friend of the show from down Under. Still loving learning with you. I tell everyone about your podcast. Not only will they learn church history, but they will get betting tips after the fact and hear about fantasy lineups of teams that they know nothing about, especially in Australia.

[B]

I mean, that's.

[C]

Yeah, that's absolutely the case. And by the way, so the Australian football rules just, you know, it just wound up. It's just ended. And. And so look, I'm obviously a Collingwood Magpies fan. Have been. My father was a Collingwood Magpies. Wendy's husband is not St Kilda Saints is who he likes.

[B]

And it was a. It was a rough year this year for St Kilda.

[C]

They were poor and now St. Kilda is out of. Just outside of. Just on the. Off the coast of Scotland. But it made its way.

[B]

Well, that's the original St. Sure, sure.

[C]

But some. Some prisoner who's from there made their way down to Australia. And I can tell you what, whether you're Collingwood or St. Kilda, we can all agree that we hate the Brisbane Lions. I think we can all agree.

[B]

Who doesn't?

[C]

Everyone.

[B]

I feel like everyone in Australia is born with an inveterate hatred of the Brisbane Lions.

[C]

They won the championship and they. They destroyed everyone and they were very good. And. And we hate them.

[B]

Yeah. So we. We commiserate with you.

[C]

Yes. Oh, I. I moved so far ahead with the. The lus. My favorite missionary is about to. And she spells favorite incorrectly. There's U's everywhere.

[B]

Yeah, no, it. All of this King's English stuff. There's used just everywhere. Color, favorite. There's everywhere.

[C]

Is about to have her last transfer and will be converting her mission to your podcast as well. So you have a few listeners in the Philippines. She said the name of the Philippines mission. I love the Philippine people too much to slaughter whatever name that is.

[B]

If only you could just do a quick call to Elder Tay.

[C]

I know Alongapo, that's close. Sure. We had just had our local sister missionaries around for dinner and I was telling them all about how good it is to learn church history from you. So from the Melbourne West Pittsburgh Mission, can you add the following sisters? And they gave quite a few sister missionaries. And she goes on to share about a family member that is having a difficult time. And we obviously wish Wendy well. We love her. She was a seminary teacher the last time she emailed in. And Wendy, we. She's been using, I assume, using all of the content that we gave her in January and then immediately fell way, way behind and helped her with nothing. But Christie's Corner, I'm sure is bringing it back for women.

[B]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if like she starts off the year as the seminary teacher and they're like, wow, she is super detailed on these Doctrine Covenant sections. And then like, right as it got to where Fall Come, Follow me passed us up, you know, right as it got to like, it was like section 10 or something that, that they were like, wait, I feel like she's not quite as deep as she was putting the time in. Yeah, obviously she's probably a better teacher than we are. Well, Wendy, tell your husband we feel bad, but you know what, he can always look back on that severe beating that, that, you know, St Kilda put on Richmond and just think for better times. Because that, that back in March that there are people in Richmond that are still crying about that. That was, that was pretty bad. So thank you for the emails. I know that we say all the time, we get a whole ton of them. There are so many we'd love to respond to and we just don't have time. And even now we spend too much time with Christie's quarter to even do a lot. That's why we're doing like a 19 part series on the church and who's dead in hell, which sounds kind of like a gamble. You could do bets who's dead and in hell? I'll take odds on, you know, Martin Van Buren. So when last we left you, the Saints were trying to negotiate these very difficult politics, but they chose to vote for Zachary Taylor, the Whig candidate. And that factors very prominently in the remainder of these discussions. So the Saints believe that they are going to be able to leverage their conversations with these Whig leaders in order to have a territory established. Because, look, they learn from Thomas Kane that James Polk wasn't going to help them at all. Well, they've now voted for in Iowa, at least they supported the Whig candidate. And so they're hoping that Zachary Taylor is going to become the president who's going to actually reward them for their loyalty for serving? I mean, who is going to be more willing to reward the fact that the Saints are loyal Americans were serving in the Mormon Battalion. Then Zachary Taylor himself, the, the head of the army that invaded the. The Mexican Southwest, you know, the, The. The hero of Buena Vista. Now Zachary Taylor gets removed from his position. Well, Winfield Scott gets appointed overall command of the invasion of Mexico City, primarily because the Democrats didn't like the fact that Zachary Taylor was so successful. It was one of those, you know, hey, we want to win the war, but dang it, it's a Whig who's winning it. And so they kind of sideline him after he becomes so popular after the Battle of Buena Vista. Unfortunately for them, they choose Winfield Scott, who then captures Mexico City, also a Whig. So the problem for the Democrats was every general that they put up in the Mexican War who became a hero also was a member of the opposing party. And it became. It became an issue. I mean, I can only imagine that the ghost of FDR was thinking, why did I pick Eisenhower? You know, or at least Truman was. Was thinking that, like I should have said something. And because Eisenhower becomes this incredibly famous and popular general, D Day landings, and of course, wins the presidency United States for the Republicans. Well, when Zachary Taylor comes to office, the Saints are very hopeful that unlike Polk, who they've realized is a charlatan who, as we talked about last time that President Young said that he was certainly going to be damned for what he did to the Saints in trying to deceive them by calling the Mormon Battalion. They're hopeful that their military loyalty, their patriotism to this general, their willingness to vote for the Whig candidates in Iowa, that should be enough to secure for themselves good treatment from the Whig politicians generally, but also from Zachary Taylor. Zachary Taylor has a real problem when he becomes president, and that is arguments over slavery had been relatively primarily settled in the years following the Compromise of 1820, the Missouri Compromise. The reason why is the Missouri Compromise drew a line at the southern border of Missouri, right into Mexico, and said that all of the land from the Louisiana Purchase that was north of that line, which is essentially all of the upper Midwest states. It is Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas. It's all of those. That all of those would be free territories forever. And only the areas, only the territories south of that southern border of Missouri in this imaginary line Drawn straight into what was then Mexico, they could be open to slavery. Well, what that meant was the Missouri Compromise effect effectively eliminated the possibility of slavery expanding. I mean, sure, what is today Oklahoma and what is today Arkansas were included in that area, and they were open to slavery. So you could maybe get two, at the most, three more slave states out of it. But that was it. There was nowhere else to expand. So what that meant was the whole idea that slavery was going to continue to expand all over the North American continent, that it was going to slavery was going to have more political and economic power. It at least appeared to be over because America had run out of territory that slavery could expand into until the Mexican War. And that's the reason why, you know, you. It's almost something people make fun of, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ends the Mexican War. Because I've talked about what a big deal it is to both American history, but especially the Latter Day Saint history. Part of the reason why it's such a big deal is it expands by almost a third the territory of the United States. So you used to have nowhere that anyone could expand. Slavery couldn't expand because it had already been settled. And then overnight, you have all of the territory of California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, part of Colorado, Wyoming, and half of what is, no, not half, but a good portion of what is today Texas. All at once, all of that territory comes into the union. And the most important part of understanding this is that we think of that territory today as being, you know, California's got, like, way too many people there. If only, if only there were people living in California, it'd be a great place to go. Right? You know, why don't more people live in California? Because Californians live there. And that's not a shot on Californians. The point is, all of us would live in San Diego if we could all fit in San Diego. If we could afford to live there, we would live there. Right? So. And that goes all the way back to our Mormon battalion ancestors who got there and were like, you know, this place is pretty nice, but there were very, very, very few Americans living in any part of that Mexican session. Of that land taken from Mexico. The largest population area is actually the Latter Day Saints settlement that is blossoming in Salt Lake City between 1847 and 1849. Then, as you all know, gold is discovered in California and California's demographics are transformed Overnight. California is going to pass Utah in population and it's never going to look back overnight. Within roughly nine months, California is going to go from having a population of 7,000 people to a population of 100 and 150,000 people, it is just going to explode because of the Gold Rush. And so when Zachary Taylor becomes president, it is this very weird political time in which the Whigs don't want to see slavery expand. The Democratic Party is generally very pro slavery, and they very much want to see slavery expand. In fact, most of the soldiers who fight in the Mexican War, they came from Southern states. So, you know, they would say things in Congress like, let me get this straight, my brother who went to go fight with the Tennessee military in Mexico, that he can't now move to Arizona with his family and his slaves because he has slaves. So he's good enough to go fight and die for you, but he's not good enough to be able to take his property there after he wins the war. So there were huge arguments over this, and Utah is going to factor prominently in these arguments because the way that the US Constitution had established the creation of territories was that territories petitioned to become, you know, they, they petitioned to become a territory and they were controlled by the federal government. But if these places petitioned to become states, well, then once they were voted in as states, they weren't controlled by the federal government. So, I mean, Utah is a great example of this, Right? So when Utah Territory. This is a spoiler alert. When Utah Territory is established, it does get established. I know that some of you were, you know, thought that was hanging by the Gossamers thread. But when Utah Territory gets established, Brigham Young is, is going to be named the governor, which is incredible. But almost all of the other federal officers are not Latter Day Saints and they are not living in Utah. We touched on this a little bit last time. So territories were actually governed almost exclusively by the federal government because the federal government could appoint and remove all of the judges, all of the governors, anytime they wanted to ensure there was a territorial legislature that was elected by the people, but all of their laws could be vetoed by that governor or overturned by the territorial Supreme Court. So Taylor conceives of a plan. Now, I know, I know, this is super boring. I get it. I'm bored telling you this. Everybody listening is bored by this. But I'm telling you something that I guarantee you will not have heard in other places. Huh? The guarantee. Well, I mean, we probably have some, like, history professors listening. They hate listening. They don't want to listen. They're listening to see all the things I get wrong. But, and that is Zachary Taylor comes up with a plan, a secret Plan if the problem is all of these areas that are going to be created into territories from all these Mexican lands and the federal government controls those territories, which means we now have to have arguments about whether they are free or slave territories. What if we skipped the territorial stage altogether? What if out of the Mexican session, what we got from the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, what if we just formed two gigantic mega states, the state of New Mexico, that would be all of New Mexico and Arizona today, as well as probably part of what is today Texas and part of what is today Utah, Nevada, and then we created a mega state of California out of what is today California and also Nevada and Utah and Colorado and part of Wyoming and all of that was one gigantic state. This is the, the idea behind it. The federal government has a right to regulate slavery in the territories and that's what causes all of the argument. But if New Mexico, if, if mega New Mexico and mega California becomes states, well then there's no territories for the federal government to argue about slavery over because all of the states admit to this. Any state has the right to outlaw slavery inside of its own state. They just don't have the right to push that on anyone else. Right. So even in, even in Louisiana they're going to say, sure, you want to make slavery illegal in Illinois, you're welcome to it, but don't try to push that on me. Right. So it's a, it's a well established idea. States can choose to eliminate slavery. So Zachary Taylor, he, he has hundreds of slaves. He is a, owns a gigantic plantation in Louisiana. He is a slave owner, but he is first and foremost a nationalist. He wasn't just general of the army for kicks and giggles, he was an American nationalist. And he thought the idea of coming to a civil war over these territories taken from Mexico was preposterous. He especially believed that places like New Mexico and Arizona and whatever reports he'd heard from Utah that they were such desolate, dry Nevada, horrible places. What are you going to move out there and grow cotton? It doesn't ever rain. And so part of his argument was we can't fight a civil war over these territories that are essentially worthless. Now, I apologize to everyone living in New Mexico, Nevada, Utah and Arizona, but that is exactly what Zachary Taylor thought about our, our states, that you can't actually even grow anything there. What, are you going to take slaves out there and have them pick cactus? What are you going to do? There's, there's nothing you could do. Now the reality is Zachary Taylor didn't realize that modern irrigation techniques would occur because Arizona is one of the world's leading producers of cotton now. Right. So it actually does grow cotton quite well, but thanks to modern irrigation techniques. But at the time, he couldn't have. He couldn't see that, and he couldn't be expected to see that. So this is Taylor's plan. He is going to send some emissaries there. Now, this is a secret plan. It's only, you know, this is research uncovered at the cabinet level with secret documents. Publicly, he's not saying anything about it because this is what he wants to have happen. He wants everyone in New Mexico to propose this giant state government. So the Congress then is in a position of trying to refuse the request of a state to join the United States, something that would be much less likely to happen. Similarly, he wants mega California to just send their constitution to the Congress to be ratified, and it includes all of those areas. So he sends these secret emissaries to try to try to effect this change. And the person who comes to Utah is a guy by the name of General John Wilson. Now, I gotta tell you, Wilson, well, he was from Missouri. So this is, if you're thinking of who could I have go negotiate with a bunch of Mormons living in the middle of. Of Utah. Oh, why are they living there? Well, they were driven out of the United States. Oh, really? Why? What happened? You know, Missouri and Illinois happened. Well, what better person to relate to them than someone from Missouri? But in actuality, Wilson, he's been appointed the Indian agent in California. But he has a secret mission. His secret mission is to go because, look, there are only two population centers in all of what is today California. There's Salt Lake, and then there's where all the miners have gone in both, you know, in California and the, you know, the Sacramento area and in Los Angeles. This is, you know, in the midst of the gold rush. And so there is a rapidly increasing population in California, but the other population center is Salt Lake. So Taylor wants to send Wilson to the Mormons to say, hey, I know you guys just left the country because you were so desperate to get away from these states that controlled you and then murdered you. What we want you to do is to agree to become another minority group in part of a larger state of this larger California scheme in order to save the Union. The plan is there won't be any more arguments over slavery because all of these, these two states will come in as free states and then we won't be able to argue it anymore. Well, I think that the cabinet that Taylor's cabinet thought the. The biggest sticking point in this plan is going to be the Mormons. They're not going to go join themselves to California when they are. Were desperate to get out of the country in the first place. But in fact, he, he gets there and he meets with Brigham Young and talks to him about this, that, that telling him that the. The Latter Day Saints were in a position to help save the Union. This is what, what John Wilson tells. He tells Brigham Young, this is what he writes back. He said, I found the Mormons with a constitution already made and enforced. I mean, he gets to Utah, yeah, they're already, they're ready for a state government of their own. I called on Brigham Young. He treated me with great cordiality, and I at once delivered him the message that you had directed me, that they. That they should receive from the administration the same and protection with all other good citizens, that they should not be molested by mobs or unlawful assemblies if the administration could by any means prevent it. So, I mean, very good that, you know, telling the, don't worry, we're not planning to kill you or let other people kill you. That's always a good way to start off with Latter Day Saints have been driven, you know, 1500 miles out of the country. But he then goes on to tell, those are the formalities, that he knew that the Latter Day Saints have been treated very poorly. And so he tells them about this plan. We need you to agree to become part of this larger California so that we can eliminate this problem. I boldly declared to them that I saw no way to avoid it but for the people east and west of the Sierra, the Sierra Nevadas, to form one state. And this, I told them, was the opinion of you. He's talking to President Taylor again and of your friends and that you and them greatly desired that to be affected. He. He said that, you know, this is what the president wants of you. This is what you need. You know, Brigham Young had just the previous Sunday said that it was not the people of the United States that had persecuted us, but sin that dwells within them that has done all the evil. The very days that we are experiencing now have been told you in the United States for the last 18 years. God Almighty will give the United States a pill that will puke them to death that is worse than lobelia, which is what you took in order to induce vomiting. I am prophet enough to prophesy the downfall of the government that has driven us out 18 years ago. I told them of it. Woe to the United States. I see them going to death and to destruction. So, you know, I mean, that could be taken several ways. It could go either way, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[B]

But he is reflecting what many Latter Day Saints feel. Well, you want our help. We're here because you wouldn't help us. That's why we're here. We deliberately picked a place that no one was living so you'd leave us alone. The American empire caught us as fast as we could run from it. So the question is, how are they going to react to it? Well, I mean, you know, they're. They are certainly a little bit uncomfortable. He. They want to make sure that there's a provision that if they become part of mega California, that they have the ability to essentially secede and form their own state at some point in the future. And of course, you know, General Wilson's like, absolutely, anything you want. Everything sounds great. Well, the. The Latter Day Saints agree to do it. They agree to say, okay, we will join with California in this plan. And. And so Wilson, all excited, starts heading to California. Now, what he doesn't know is the congressman that Taylor had sent to go talk to the Californians to get them on board with his plan. He had his own personal ambitions. His name was Thomas Butler King. Well, Thomas King, he gets to California, to what is today California, a day after they've already voted on a new proposed state constitution and constitutional offices and everything. And so he's in this position of I can either try to push the agenda that the President wanted me to push, or I can wildly support the efforts they've already made. And their boundaries don't include Utah, just their boundaries include what is today California. And then there's a really good chance that I'll be elected as a senator from this new state, because here I am, I'm backing them. I'm a federal government emissary. And so this Thomas King, he essentially betrays the Taylor administration, never pushes the agenda that he was supposed to unite them together. And so Wilson and Mormons that are coming down to this Constitutional Convention that they think is going to happen, get there only to find a vote had already been held. Utah wasn't included in California. And when they try to petition them saying, hey, we need to redo this, of course the Californians don't really want to include a bunch of Mormons in their state. Now, I know that was a long story, but again, it's a story I guarantee no one's ever heard. I guarantee no one's like, oh yeah, Utah almost became part of California in mega California, right?

[C]

No, no one's ever heard that.

[B]

Yeah. Now, now, that doesn't mean that it's interesting. There's lots of things you've never heard. Like, I've never heard exactly what the gear dimensions are inside of a Timex watch. And also not maybe that interesting for an hour. But the, the point is, not only had the Latter Day Saints voted for Zachary Taylor against their general. I mean, they were mostly Democrats, but they voted for him out of the idea that he would help them become a territory or state. Not only had they done that when a special emissary arrived saying, I know that you came out here to be independent, but what we need you to do is to join with California and in a giant state so that we can make sure we stop this sectional crisis from happening. The Latter Day Saints, you know, not happy about it, not begrudgingly, they make the decision, okay, we'll do it. Well, this matters because this lays the groundwork of why Latter Day Saints, some Latter Day Saint. We'll have a whole conversation on our next episode about who said it, but are at least alleged to say that Zachary Taylor is dead and in hell. Why? Well, because the Latter Day Saints had supported Zachary Taylor like crazy. And Zachary Taylor, he gets letters back from John Wilson, this Missourian who was out there negotiating with him, and they are all effusive of praise of the Latter Day Saints. They are all, the Latter Day Saints were totally willing to go along with it. This is all King's fault. He's the one who did this. I mean, Wilson loses his mind on King because King just, he just, he just, he has a special order from the President and he is just not following it because he just doesn't feel like it. It's just unbelievable. This is what he writes to President Taylor. Mr. King declares that he had no possible association with me in my visit to Salt Lake, that his coming here had nothing to do with me going there, that there was no such thing as an understanding, and that there was no understanding of the President and the Cabinet that his and my coming to California had any common or connected purpose. So Wilson's just lost his mind because he's like, yeah, I was there when we all got given the orders to do this. But even in his anger, he is defending the Latter Day Saints. He says, you know, what was the use of sending me by the Mormon City at all? What was the use of seeking an arrangement? If it was worth making, it was worth using is what Wilson says to King, but he then writes to Taylor and says, look, the Latter Day Saints have been great in this regard. The Latter Day Saints are the ones that were willing to help this, that they chose to follow the President. And so this is the backbone of where Latter Day Saint sentiment is going to come from that they followed this plan of Zachary Taylor. And Zachary Taylor isn't going to in the aftermath of his failed scheme because California is now trying to come in as its own state. The New Mexico, Greater New Mexico plan never really unfolds either. So what is he going to do? The Latter Day Saints are still trying to become a territory. Well, it's at that exact moment that a well known person from Latter Day Saint history, the last remaining son of Lucy Mack Smith and Joseph Smith Sr. William Smith, sends a memoriam to Congress talking about this proposed state of Deseret that they were going to make. And that's what we're going to talk about in our next episode because Taylor's reaction to it is what is what brings some condemnation Season this fun?

[C]

This is fun.

[B]

Now I get it. It's not fun. We need to get back whether or not angels have wings.

[C]

They don't.

[B]

Oh, well, great. Now we can't even do that one again. We. Our plan was to do that every year because people love angels having wings. That's. Just keep doing.

[C]

This is interesting. It's a perfect set. Is we're about to.

[B]

Yeah. We're only three episodes in, but we did spend a little bit of time on the Collingwood Magpies and, you know, the, the Brisbane Lions. I mean, what does Wendy want from us? Thanks so much for listening. Yeah, no, she doesn't want that. That. She made that very clear. Thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them until next time.