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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.
- [00:30]
B
Foreign. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [00:47]
C
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I'm very excited to get back to finding out who is dead and in hell. That is part 17 of who's Dead and in Hell. We're giving Moroni episodes a run for their money.
- [01:02]
B
There's. There's a lot of people dead in hell. I think we didn't realize how many American officials would need to be condemned for being lying politicians when we first undertook this.
- [01:16]
C
Yeah, you have under Secretaries of Territories.
- [01:19]
B
I've got like Indian Agents. We've got, we've got, we had a, we had a naval attache. I mean, we've got, we've got a lot of people that are, that are doing lying, lying stuff to the. We. We have like a, a party chairperson in Iowa that is, is, is falling under it. So, I mean, there's, I guess when a lot of people are willing to lie and treat you terribly, there end up being a lot of people that condemnation could fall on.
- [01:47]
C
This is true. Now, now, Garrett, we're, we're just going to read one email from the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown Mail.
- [01:53]
B
You're so desperate to get to the content, even though Christie's Corner is going me for 45 minutes.
- [01:59]
C
Chrissy's Corner is, is Liberty Jail. And I know you've got some feelings on the issue that you'd like to share.
- [02:06]
B
I'm gonna try to be very concise. I'm just.
- [02:08]
C
This one is not. This is not even going to be part. Whatever the heck it is. This is going to be just a Liberty Jail episode, isn't it?
- [02:16]
B
We'll find out. No, I've been, I've been prepping all day. Like, okay, don't talk about this. Don't talk about this. Don't talk about this. So we'll see if I end up talking about it.
- [02:25]
C
Okay, well, so I have to, like.
- [02:27]
B
I have to get in the. I have to. It's like, it's not angry. Garrett, I need concise. Garrett, the problem is we talk about Liberty Jail. It's not a. No, I will start to merge into angry. Garrett. And I can't.
- [02:41]
C
I can't remember if I. So I have. I have a. I have a problem being concise. I know that's. That's a shock to. To many. I have a problem being concise on non history things. Business, business, business. Numbers. I have a problem being concise there. I. I don't remember if I've said this or not, that my wife bought me a stopwatch that, that I'm supposed to start because she's like, you know, when people call you, they just. Sometimes they want to talk, but sometimes they just want an answer to a thing.
- [03:12]
B
Yeah. They don't. They don't want you to schmooze them. They just want. I need to know what the numbers for last quarter were. Hey, how's your wife doing?
- [03:20]
C
Yeah, you're going to get 37 minutes of how's your wife doing? You're going to get it.
- [03:25]
B
So she's still. I know she was having that trouble. Is she still sick? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [03:31]
C
What about your. Yeah, your uncle? How's. How's he doing? How's the. The buckwheat crop?
- [03:37]
B
Well, buckwheat sales through the roof. Ever since we promoted on our podcast, people are planting buckwheat around their houses. Yeah.
- [03:45]
C
It's a Ronco food dehydrator of grains and crops.
- [03:49]
B
In fact, it's time, you know, we can't keep. We can't keep Oz behind the curtain anymore. The entire purpose of this podcast, we started it four and a half years ago because Richard and I realized we need to depress the buckwheat market by getting more people producing it so we could purchase buckwheat at a lower rate. This was the plan we came up with. It has been incredibly effective.
- [04:24]
C
It's a long con. It was a.
- [04:26]
B
It's very long. Yeah. I mean, you're pretending all kind. I don't. I mean, we don't even have PhDs. We watch.
- [04:31]
C
We watched the Sting and the Sting 2 multiple times and we feel we figured out this long.
- [04:36]
B
I watched. I watched Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. I figured I gain a lot from that in ways to pass off this buckwheat, this ruse onto people. That's. This podcast is about buckwheat. It's about John C. Bennett and Flasis Hurlbut and I mean, and I guess BYU football. I don't know. Well, a little bit.
- [04:58]
C
Yeah, a little bit of that. But anyway, it's a good thing that we're married because Our wives try to help us to be better than we are. Right. And again, we're going to talk about that things for 37 minutes instead of the question. Just like the opening to here.
- [05:13]
B
Yeah.
- [05:14]
C
Anyway, so I have that in my office and I, and I as a reminder that sometimes, just sometimes, we need to wrap it up. And so Garrett, on this episode we're.
- [05:23]
B
Starting right now, we're going to start with.
- [05:24]
C
We're going to start with Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag first.
- [05:28]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [05:29]
C
One email. One. And then, then we're going to go again.
- [05:33]
B
We read all of your emails. We thank you for all your emails.
- [05:35]
C
Oh, they're so wonderful and so great.
- [05:37]
B
Just joining and you're like, what do they mean, the missionaries? If people email us their missionaries email address, we'll add them to a Google Drive which will allow them to listen to all of the content, both the free and the premium, while they're on their mission. There you go. That's the end of announcements, right?
- [05:55]
C
That's correct. That's correct. Hello, Doctors Leduc and Dirkmott. My wife is.
- [06:01]
B
Who is this writing?
- [06:02]
C
This is, I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly. Jansen.
- [06:08]
B
Jansen. Okay.
- [06:09]
C
Yes. My wife is pregnant with our second and we have a due date in April. I'm sifting through my thoughts and questions until that time, until I have the perfect question for you guys because I ain't gonna waste a freebie. But for now, I mostly care about your input more than having a dedicated episode.
- [06:31]
B
Well, you come to the right place.
- [06:33]
C
That's right.
- [06:33]
B
Since Richard is cutting me off and not allowing me to answer you.
- [06:38]
C
So if you have time for a response, great. But if not, I'll just keep endlessly wandering in darkness because heaven forbid I figure it out on my own. That's very funny. Parenthetically, my simple question, is this out of the Saints volumes or Revelations in context? Is one better than the other? Like is one more milk and the other meat? I just have a lot of people in my life that are interested or at least curious about the work. No doubt because I've established my reputation as the religious know it all. So he's, he's essentially doing what Elder Abel did.
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B
Yeah, but he's doing it at work, which is a little bit more. It's a little more scary.
- [07:22]
C
It's impressive actually. Elder, by the way, doing this, doing this here. Elder Abel will be going home soon. He's been, he's been hitting me up for trying to have a full, you know, standard of truth. Layton Mission hour, you know, I'm like, look, we'll. We'll get to it. I don't know. I think he knows it well enough. He could do it on his own, I would imagine.
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B
Yeah. I mean, well, he's going to be called as the next apostle. I thought Elder Abel, right?
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C
It's true. He needs to hurry up and get married.
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B
By the time this airs, he will already have been added to the quorum of the tw. There's nowhere else for him to go.
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C
This airs in like two days.
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B
That's what I'm saying. His meteoric rise, it's compounding. He went from being the worst missionary in the entire Layton Mission.
- [08:12]
C
Oh, that Elder Abel is such a good sport. I want to recommend the saints of them, but they are just inquisitive enough to do their own fact finding. Probably just Google. I'm trying to be humorous to catch your attention, but the issue is that I'm not funny. So I'll end on a serious note. I love you guys. I love the podcast. Y' all have helped me solidify my myself in the gospel of Christ. The world is a better place because of what you. That's very nice, Jansen. A better place because of what you do. I'm a better person because of what you do. Thank you. Talk to you in April.
- [08:49]
B
That was very nice, thoughtful, very wonderful email. So I can give you. Richard won't let give you the full answer on this, so if the answer comes across as not being very good, just remember Richard told me it had to be.
- [09:01]
C
We've got to hurry and get to Christie's Corner.
- [09:04]
B
Have you started? Show me the stopwatch. I have to see it. I need to see it. Where is it? He's gonna pull. Where? He literally has a stopwatch. Folks, if only we were a video medium, you'd be able to see that looks like an expensive stuff.
- [09:16]
C
It's a very nice gift as a reminder that sometimes I go a little long and I'd like you to wear.
- [09:23]
B
It like you're a rapper from the 90s.
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C
I should. I should.
- [09:28]
B
There we. Okay. He started it. Wow. Now I feel an enormous amount of pressure. You ever see the promos for 60 Minutes and, like, it was going around like.
- [09:38]
C
Of course. Yeah, of course.
- [09:39]
B
It would always make you kind of nervous, wouldn't it?
- [09:41]
C
It did because it was like it was anxiety inducing.
- [09:44]
B
Time's ticking. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do, but I, you know, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be told by this anchor. It's a great question. Look, if you're having people at work who want to learn more, honestly, there are two different types of sources or of mediums, and that's why they kind of do different things. The Saints volumes present a narrative of church history in an easily digestible way. That's at a pretty basic level. Now, if you start tracking down footnotes from Saints, you will be led to all kinds of, you know, pretty hardcore sources, Joseph Smith, paper sources, published books, published articles. But the narrative itself, if you're not reading the footnotes, is designed to be accessible to someone that you're working with. It doesn't know a whole lot about Latter Day Saints. Who wants to know more now when you say, I'm worried they're going to go do their own fact checking. Well, look, they can be my guest if they're going to fact check Saints, but that's not what they're going to do. Okay? They're not going to read Saints and go, you know, actually I was looking and where you guys attributed it to the second manuscript book that the Revelation came from, I think it's clear that it was Revelation Book 1. That was the earlier copy. And that one probably should. They're not doing that, nor are they adopting a very condescending voice, which I just did there. They. When you say fact check, what's most likely they're going to do is Google did, did Joseph Smith really see plates? And then you're going to get all of the cesspool of anti Mormonism that litters the Internet. I mean, we demonstrated even if you do a chat GPT, oh, you're gonna. It's gonna sound pretty authoritative and also be ridiculously wrong on multiple points. So the narrative is much easier for people to follow. Now, Revelations in context is as, as the name implies is specifically about specific revelations, not the narrative itself. So, for instance, there's not a Revelations in context for, you know, Joseph having the first vision, because that's not a revelation, that's in the Doctrine and Covenants. There are lots of resources on the church's website about Joseph Smith having the first vision, and among them, the Gospel Topics essays which describe the various different accounts. So I don't know your friends. For all I know, they're as invented as the pregnancy of your wife. I'm sure it's real, so I don't know where they're at, but I think that Saints is a good, easy place where it's an easy read and you can even listen to it. You can listen to it for free on the church's website. So that's what I would recommend. Well, if you want to learn more about this, how about, you know, you read the first couple chapters of Saints, and I'll read them with you and we can talk about it. If there's particular things they get hung up on. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So you're saying that he had, like, plates and stuff? Then it might be better to go to the gospel topics essays. If they're hung up on. On Joseph Smith's revelations about, you know, consecration or Zion, well, then the. Then the revelations in context might be a more accessible way to talk about that specific thing. So that's what I would say. Richard's tapping his stopwatch. He's. Oh. Yep. He just clicked it. And we're done.
- [13:42]
C
4 minutes, 10 seconds. Garrett, that's incredible.
- [13:45]
B
Well done. That's the fastest I've ever gone. And also the worst answer I've ever given.
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C
No, I thought that was. I thought that was very nice. I thought it was right off.
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B
You've given way worth it. You've given answers that are horrible. This is. This isn't even ranked the top 10 of terrible answers.
- [14:01]
C
No, that was very nice, and his email was very kind, and we wish him well with his second child. And so now Garrett on. We go to Christie's Corner.
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B
Oh, boy. Christie's Corner. Here we go. When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool, it's Christie's Corner. Yeah. So having me do something short on Joseph Smith's letters from Liberty Jail, There's a better chance that we're never going to mention another sporting event on this podcast ever again.
- [14:43]
C
I was looking at BYU's away schedule, Cincinnati and Texas Tech. By the way, those are going.
- [14:47]
B
They're in a lot of trouble.
- [14:48]
C
They're in a lot of trouble.
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B
They may not beat Iowa State. They probably won't. In fact, Iowa State's favored to win by four right now.
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C
Yeah, they are. I. I'm going to be at the game. I'm very excited.
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B
But not to place a bet. You're just going to the game?
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C
Oh, gosh, no. No, I'm not going to certainly hit an Indian casino and do that. I'm again, reference President Hinckley's talk on General.
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B
We wouldn't do that.
- [15:07]
C
I will say so, Garrett. Some of my favorite verses in all of scripture, Dom. Are in. In. In these sections. In fact, my Missionary scripture was Doctrine and Covenants section 122, verses 7 through 9. I love these verses in these sections. They're just beautiful.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah. And you know, they come at this very difficult time because Joseph Smith is in jail for quite some time before these letters are written. I mean, he's arrested in 1838 with the Mormon War. And it's not until March of 1839 that these letters are written. And they're written to the saints that are now gathered, you know, huddled in masses in Quincy and other places where they're trying to overcome this. It's important to note the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121, 122 and 123 are all excerpts of two letters that Joseph Smith wrote. These letters that he wrote from Liberty Jail are huge. They're long letters. I mean, they are. You're talking 12 pages if you had it in a Word document. And it was single spaced, you know, much, much longer than doctrine covenant, section 121, 22 or 23 is. So. But as Richard pointed out, some of the teachings that are in these sections are incredibly beautiful. When the great change to the Doctrine and Covenants took place, and, you know, now every fly by night apostate, modern day apostates can be like, yeah, see, they changed it. They did. In the 1870s, the 1876 edition, Brigham Young tasked Orson Pratt and other apostles to really revitalize the Doctrine and Covenants, changing its format. So one thing, the Doctrine comes before was arranged roughly thematically. It wasn't arranged in any way chronologically. And Orson Pratt rearranges the revelations into what he thinks the chronological order is. Now, sometimes he has to guess because he doesn't actually have a date on them. He guesses pretty well. Honestly. He does a. He does a very good job guessing given the amount of resources that he has. I mean, I have. I have way more resources. Well, I have way more secular resources than Orson. Orson, Brad had keys and was an apostle, so he obviously had access to sources that I won't ever have access to. But when you're looking at what secular sources, you know, what documents he had readily available to him, we have way more now than he did then, so it's easier for us to go, oh, actually this revelation comes before this one. I see why he listed it there, because he didn't know. But, you know, anyway, so he rearranges the chronology of it and he also expands what they include as a section. Now you think, what do you mean he expands? Well, there's all kinds of incredible Joseph Smith teachings that were not dictated as revelations when Joseph delivered them. They weren't, you know, Joseph starts to speak in the name of God and Oliver Calvary sits down and starts writing it out. For instance, here's a great example of this Doctrine and covenants section, section 110. This is, you know, Jesus and Moses and Elias and Elijah all appearing to Joseph and giving him keys. This is one of the most important events there is in the restoration of the gospel. But it's not recorded publicly like a revelation. It's recorded privately in Joseph Smith's journal. So the decision is made to excerpt that from Joseph's journal and to publish it as section 110. Similarly, Joseph has a vision in the Kirtland Temple, right, where he sees his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom that is later added to the Doctrine and covenants in section 137. Again, beautiful, important, essential teaching that because it was in Joseph's private journal and not dictated as a public revelation, people didn't have the same access to it as they do now that it's canonized with these beautiful teachings. And one of the things that they canonize is they take several of Joseph's discourses and his letters that he wrote to the church as the prophet, and they take portions of them and they canonize them. That's where Doctrine and covenants, section 121, 22 and 23 come from. I don't have time. So here's the, here's the bad part. Richard's got a stopwatch out. Everyone wants to hear who else is dead and in hell. I, I, you know, I even teased that William Smith was a part of this episode. Here's, here's the tough part. What we're talking about is one of the most horrific times in Latter Day Saint history where it's not just beatings and tarrings and featherings. It's not just people mocking you and making fun of you. It's not just people setting your house on fire. It's people being murdered. It's. It's men and women being assaulted. It's men and women being robbed. It's men and women being driven from the state, losing everything that they have and the amount of suffering that is involved as the Saints are driven from the state. So look, far west is on the extreme western portion of, of Missouri. For those of you who know geography, you're well aware that Quincy, Illinois is all the way across the state in a, you know, northeasterly fashion. All of These Saints are driven. And it is not. Look, it's not quick, it's not quick to drive it. It's incredibly rural and you've lost everything. And so between these roving mobs. We call them mobs. They're not even mobs. They're literally the state militia of Illinois.
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C
Right?
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B
We, we say mob all the time. They're not mobs. They're acting like mobs, man. So I gotta calm down. My dander. There was elevating. There was a, there's an elevated dander coming.
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C
Okay, well, the, the idea, the idea that they call them mobs when it's actually the, actually the government is doing it.
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B
It's literally the government of Missouri looting Mormon houses, assaulting Mormon women, killing Mormon children. It is literally the militia of the state of Missouri. Well, put yourself in Joseph Smith's position after he's arrested. Not only. Look, Liberty Jail is terrible. You can go to the, you know, the recreation of Liberty Jail. You could come on a tour with us actually and go visit it if you wanted. We still have some spots in 2027. We do, yes. I mean, come on down, you know, it'll be fun. You can go there and you can get a sense for this, that this is. Look, they're being arrested under false pretenses. How do you know that they're being arrested under false pretenses? Show me the conviction that the state, Missouri got for the things they were accused of. Oh, wait, there isn't any. In fact, Missouri arrests them and then uses the fact that the Mormons were in open rebellion to justify all of the crimes that were committed against the saints. The 17 people that are murdered at Haun's Mill. How many of those soldiers from the state of Missouri are put on trial for murdering a 10 year old? How many of them are put on trial for murdering an 8 year old? Well, none of them are. Right. So there is no repercussions for the ridiculous violence that is enacted against the Saints. And the state confiscates all their lands saying, well, this is how you pay for the war that you started. So the, the, the, the state of Missouri is in a pretty tough spot if they prosecute the war to it. I mean, if they continue to prosecute Joseph Smith and he is found innocent. Now, it's hard to believe that any Missouri jury would ever find him innocent, right? Especially since they're trying him in the counties where the Mormons lived. But let's say that they did. Well, suddenly, if you're saying the reason why we fought this war against the Mormons was because Joseph Smith's traitor to the state, and then he's acquitted of being a traitor to the state. Well, now who's responsible for all of the murders? Well, it obviously has to be the state. Right, because you said we're doing this because the Mormons are in rebellion. And then we just tried their leaders and they were found to not be in rebellion. So there's only one other person you can blame at that point, and that's the people who were killing everyone. It's also wondering, like, what great pet peeve for. For me, just so you know, if you ever want me to not be your friend, this is that. Look, there's lots of people. We're going to get a flood of emails of people saying, I don't want Garrett to be my friend. This is how you do it when you try to play the. There was faults on both sides when it comes to the Mormon War in Missouri. It don't play well around here. Let me say that because you don't have a similar level of violence. Are there non Latter Day Saints and Latter Day Saints both killed at the Battle of Crooked river, where the Saints believe that they are defending themselves against this mob force, which actually isn't a mob force, it's actually part of the militia of Missouri? Yes, there are deaths on both sides. Are there places where the Latter Day Saints, with their forces, ride into a city and begin shooting everyone they see? Are there places where Latter Day Saints brutalize, attack, beat and kill people in their settlements as they burn down all their houses? The answer to that is an obvious no. Are there things that the Saints could have done differently? Sure. But saying that the Saints deserved what happened to them when it is horrific is a good way to have me say, good day, sir, and you've stole fizzy lifting drinks. Good day, sir. And I'm trying to calm down. Trying to calm down. I haven't even got to what I want to say yet. Why did we have this on Christie's Corner? We should have canceled Christie's Corner. We should have canceled the podcast. Anyway, so put yourself in Joseph's position. Yeah, the jail is horrible, but we all know the great story of Parley Pratt talking about how Joseph stood up and rebuked the guards. That was when he was first arrested. And they hear all of this just horrible, foul things. And it's not because they're just using bad language. It's what they are saying they are doing as they torture Latter Day Saints that causes Joseph to say, silence Ye fiends of the infernal pit, cease such talk or you or I die. This incident, I'm paraphrasing, but probably close. That's at the beginning of his arrest when he's in Richmond jail. Well. Well, then he's sent to Liberty Jail for months. And what does he hear? Just constant reports that the people he loves, the people who followed him to Missouri, the people who were faithful saints. When you have people like Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, W.W. phelps back, all of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, you have all of these people apostatizing. You have John Boynton apostatizing. You have, you know, Luke and Lyman Johnson apostatizing from the quorum of the 12. You have all of these people that have rejected Joseph and apostatized. They aren't the ones being murdered. They aren't the ones being driven from their homes. They aren't the ones that are having their houses burned down. They aren't the ones who are losing everything. The people who are losing everything.
- [29:20]
C
Are.
- [29:20]
B
The faithful people who followed Joseph to Far west, the people who stood by the community even though Joseph was arrested. And so we often read Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121. I mean, look, I indict myself with this, so I won't say we. Garrett often reads Doctrine and Covenant, Section 121 as almost like a Joseph Smith pity party. I know that sounds very, very. I often read it when I'm having a really difficult time in my own life. And so I read it to try to apply it to myself and have God say to me through those words, thine affliction and thine adversity will be but a small moment. So, look, I selfishly read doctrine and covenants 121, 22 and 23. I most often in my life have gone to them when I'm looking to be buoyed up over something that's going on in my life. So I understand why we read it that way because, frankly, it is beautiful. I mean, I have said since the day I first started researching on this, if Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet for anything else, he was a prophet for the fact that he understood human nature better than anyone did, that it is the nature of almost all men. As soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they immediately begin exercising unrighteous dominion. And I don't know a better description of how power corrupts psychologically than that. And we've all seen it. We've all seen people who are really Great people who got a little bit of money, got a little bit of power, and they started turning into a jerk. We, we've seen people exercise unrighteous dominion in local church callings, you know, brow beating people because. Well, actually I'm the president of the Sunday School. That was probably autobiographical for me, but so I understand why we read it the way we do. But I'm going to read part of this letter to you that DNC121 is excerpted from. And I think it will change a little bit about your perspective. It is very long. You can read the whole thing on josephsmithpapers.org, you can go to joseph smithpapers.org go to. It's called Joseph Smith Letter 20-3-1839. Okay, so the 20th of March, go to Joseph Smith Papers, go to documents, go to 1839. And as you scan down, you'll see a letter, 20-3-1839, and you'll see the letter in its entirety. But he starts off the letter talking about how grateful he is for the people that have remembered them, that have love them, and how important that fellowship is. Dearly beloved brethren, we are the more ready and willing to lay claim to your fellowship and love. For our circumstances are calculated to awaken our spirits to a sacred remembrance of everything. And we think that yours are also. And nothing therefore can separate us from the love of God and fellowship one with another. That every species of wickedness and cruelty practiced upon us only tend to bind our hearts together and seal them together in love. I mean, again, all Joseph has the ability to do as he's in this hole in the ground, in liberty is here by messenger, by the jests of guards, by letters, by newspapers of the horrible, horrible things that are happening to the people that he loves, that are happening to the saints. I imagine that some of you felt a small, small particle of this feeling when you turned on the news and saw that church burning in Michigan and you saw the numbers go up and up and up of the people who were shot and murdered and wounded and those who died. I can only imagine that you had a feeling in your soul that shot to its center. It was sorrow. It was, if you're me, it was anger. Possibly other people are more Christlike than me. So it wasn't anger for everybody, but it was angry. It was anger for me. It was distress. Like, how could something like this happen? There were lots of feelings, but they were very poignant. And these were people that, I don't know what if they Were people that you did. What if it was your church house? What if you just so happened to be gone to Disneyland that weekend when it happened? Imagine the feeling that you would have as you learn about the violence that happened to people that you love. That you have worshiped with. The people who've taken care of your kids. The people who've borne testimony to you. And now they're dead because of evil people. Imagine. So this is where Joseph is. It is needful to say to you that. Say unto us. We are driven from our homes. And we are smitten without cause. We understand that if the inhabitants of the state of Missouri had let the saints alone. And had been as desirable of peace as the saints were. They would have had nothing but peace and quietude in this state unto this day. And we would not be in this hell surrounded with demons. If not those who are damned. Those who shall be damned. And where we're compelled to hear nothing but their blasphemous oaths. And witness a scene of blasphemy and drunkenness. And hypocrisy and debaucheries of every description. And the cries of orphans and widows Would not have ascended up to God. The blood of the innocent women and children, yea, and of men also would not have cried to God against them. It would not have stained the soil of Missouri. But, oh, the unrelenting hand, the inhumanity. The murderous disposition of this people. It shocks all nature. It beggars and defies all description. It is a tale of woe. A lamentable tale, yea, a sorrowful tale. It is too much to tell. It's too much for contemplation. It's too much to think for a moment. It's too much for human beings. It can't be found among the heathens. It can't be found among the nations where kings and tyrants are enthroned. It can't be found among the savages of the wilderness. Yea, I think it cannot be found among the wild and ferocious beasts of the forest. Forest. That a man should be mangled for sport. And a woman robbed of all that they have as their last morsel of subsistence. And then violated to gratify the hellish desires of the mob. And finally left to perish with their helpless offspring clinging around their necks. But this is not all. After a man is dead, he must be dug up from his grave. And mangled to pieces. For no other purpose than to gratify their spleen against religion of God. They practice these things upon the saints. Who have done them no wrong, who are innocent and virtuous, who love the Lord their God, and were willing to forsake all things for Christ's sake. These things are awful to relate, but they are true. It must needs be that offenses come, but woe to them by whom they come. O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed in thine eye? Yea, thine pure eye. Behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants and thine ear be penetrated with their cries. Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions before thine heart be softened towards them and thy bowels moved with compassion towards him. So you see when you read it in context what Joseph is talking about right as he moves into that is not boy, this jail is really terrible. And they've been feeding us horrible rotten food and they're not giving us blankets and they're treating us badly and they're making fun of us. And that that's not what spurs Joseph to say, oh God, where art thou? True to Joseph Smith's personality, it's when people that he loves are being hurt that he cannot account for this, as he said back in 1833 in a letter he wrote when the saints were driven out of Jackson County. Now the letter goes on after that for a very long time before there's another excerpt that's taken from it that's part of 121. And then again you have a couple more places. And then there's another letter that's written probably sometime around or on March 22nd. So a couple days later, again, very lengthy letter which another huge portion of doctrine covenant section 121 is taken from. In fact, the portion we already quoted, right? Many are called and fewer chosen. Why they set their hearts upon the vain things of this world. In this second letter, it's when Joseph, after listing off all of the horrible, horrible, horrible things that have happened that Joseph teaches them what's then in 123 today we suggest for your consideration the propriety of the saints, gathering up a knowledge of all the facts and suffering and abuses made upon them by the people of that state and also all the property and amount of damages they have sustained, both in character and personal injuries as well as real property and the names of the person that a hand in their oppression as far as they can find them out. It's in this part of the letter where he, he talks about the horrible, horrible things that have, that have been done. Again, this is part of doctrine covenant section 1 23. It's a duty that we owe not only to our own wives and children, but to the widows and the fatherless whose husbands and fathers have been murdered under its iron hand, which dark and blackening deeds are enough to make hell itself shudder and to stand aghast and a pale and the hands of the very devil tremble and palsy. And also it is an imperious duty that we owe to all the rising generation, to all the pure in heart of which there are many yet on the earth among all generations and, and sex and parties and denominations who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men. So you know, they do collect these. I mean one of the more painful things you'll ever read is the statement of Amanda Smith whose husband and whose 10 year old son are murdered at Haun's Mill and whose six year old son is wounded and nearly killed at Haun's Mill. Loses everything, has all kinds of threats. When she totals up what her value is, she says my losses are worth more than all of the state of Missouri is worth. And as she's writing to the Congress, she says, what would you give in exchange for your families? It is not a pleasant thing to do to go read the affidavits that are created as a result of Doctrine and Covenants section 123. They are horrific. There are things in them that you better not read if you have a soft stomach or if you're not able to deal with the expressions of violence. They are chilling and they are horrific. And there's a reason why the devil palsies at how horrible these actions were. Well, that is a really light way to talk about Doctrine and Covenant Section 121, 22 and 23. I believe I went far beyond whatever the stopwatch said. I apologize to everyone, but this should at least get Elder Abel to being a 70.
- [43:36]
C
That context was great and that was terrible. We as a family. So my favorite verses, some of my favorite verses in all scripturedom are there and the, the peace that, that the Lord speaks to Joseph Smith is some of the most comforting. It was funny. Did you pick your mission scripture before you left on your mission?
- [44:00]
B
I did. I did. That's why it was so terrible.
- [44:03]
C
What was, what was the scripture?
- [44:05]
B
I don't even remember.
- [44:07]
C
So I did.
- [44:10]
B
Look. When you've been a missionary as long as I have been.
- [44:13]
C
Well, so what's funny is that we forgot to do that before I left. And so I had the counselor in the bishopric write me a letter because, you know, we had to write letters and ask me for what I would want for the verse. And I don't know if this gives you an idea how my first month out in the field felt, but when I'm choosing D122, 7 through 9, about being cast into a pit and, you know, all the elements combining to hedge up the way. The most beautiful verse in all of that, to me in all of those sections, well, there's a couple. But the idea that the Son of man hath descended below them all are done greater than him is beautiful, and it has provided a tremendous amount of peace and comfort into my soul over these many years. And the end of 23 is also the idea of in the midst of all that you described, to cheerfully do all the things that lie within our power and to be still and see the power of God manifest is. It's a beautiful, beautiful sentiment. And so your context to that was wonderful and virtuous, lovely and good report and praiseworthy.
- [45:42]
B
Well, you know, at the end of that, after he says, you know, that about how we, you know, we should do all things that lieth in our power, right cheerfully. What's not included in doctrine covenant section123 is Joseph essentially saying, hey, we're not going to answer violence for violence. That, you know, we're not going to organize secret militias to go do things right. Your humble servant or servants intend to henceforth disapprobate everything that is not in fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and is not a bold and frank and upright nature. They will not hold their peace as in times past when they see iniquity beginning to rear its head for fear of traitors or the consequences that shall follow by reproving those who creep in, unaware that they may get something to destroy the flock. We believe that the experience of the saints in times past has been sufficient that they will from henceforth be always ready to obey the truth without having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. It is expedient that we should be aware of such things. So it's interesting that one of the things that Joseph is saying is he's kind of saying, look, some of the. Some of this is my fault because some of the people that were traders, I realized that there were problems with them, but I didn't do anything about it because I didn't want to, you know, blow everything up. And then they use their position to blow everything up. So it's, you know, it Gets very, Gets very personal in that way. But, you know, as he says later in that letter, we will. The Constitution of the United States is true. The Bible is true. The Book of Mormon is true. The Book of the Covenants, that's. The Doctrine and Covenants are true. Christ is true. The ministering angels sent forth from God are true. And that we know that we have a house not made with hands eternal in the heavens, whose builder and maker is God. A consolation which our oppressors cannot feel when fortune or fate shall lay its iron hand on them as it has on us. So, you know, again, part of, you know, the Son of Man is descendable of them all. It's a reminder that we all need to have that the point of this life is not this life, that that in the world you will have tribulation, but the real point is to become like our heavenly Father. And that happens in the next life. They can burn down your mansion or your church house here, but they can't burn down your mansion in heaven. That's yours. And that's going to be there regardless of what happens here.
- [48:46]
C
Yeah, that's. That's, that's beautiful. Now we're. We're relatively out of time. I know you were going to talk about polygamy, but we're all out of time.
- [48:57]
B
I. So the, the thing was, I thought, well, if I'm gonna end up talking about polygamy, you know what? I have time. Or will this be so disjointed that anyone tried to listen to the story.
- [49:07]
C
Will be like, what are you talking about?
- [49:09]
B
You called this part four, and it was five minutes.
- [49:13]
C
Well, so, I mean, you know, I was, I was, you know what I was thinking about, what I was thinking about. And you've shared this before, but it's such a beautiful sentiment that aligns to this, this idea that all of the wrongs will be made up.
- [49:26]
B
Right?
- [49:30]
C
It's one of the things that is one of the things that's the most offensive to me about the idea of the prosperity gospel is the idea of the idea of the suffering of all of these wonderful people then and even now, and what is it that they did to deserve this is an offensive thing to me. And when you read those sections and you provide the context of that letter and then you share that sentiment about all of these wrongs being made right, it just further solidifies to me the beauty of the restored gospel in a way that without it, I'm left wanting.
- [50:29]
B
That. That is very much the case. I, I realize, look, there are Times that we are punished for the things we do. Sure, yeah, maybe.
- [50:41]
C
Maybe so many for me to count for myself. Yes.
- [50:45]
B
But to believe that if only you had been more righteous, something horrible wouldn't happen to you is to deny the righteousness of women like Amanda Barn Smith, who was absolutely righteous and was in fact following the prophet. She didn't live in Haun's Mill. She was moving to Far west because the prophet had received a revelation commanding the saints that were still faithful in Kirtland to move to Far West. And she just so happened to stop for the night at Hans Mill, the same night that the Missouri State militia attacked and killed everyone. So I understand that there are times that if you are. That God will enact his punishments or he will enact his blessings, but I think mainly we don't actually know what those are. And so we get ourselves caught into these loops where we try to say, well, if only I'd gone to the temple more, you know, my son wouldn't have apostatized. Well, I know that trying to put a. Trying to blame yourself for it helps you feel like you could have been in control even though you weren't. But your son has agency and God isn't willing to take it away for any reason. And we just see all over the place in the history of the Church that really incredibly good people have friends and loved ones who apostatize. We see really good and wonderful people who go through horrific trials and difficulties. We see really good and wonderful people who never become rich, who are always struggling on the edge of poverty, but their mansion is in the next life. And so, I mean, maybe we'll punt on William Smith this time and we'll come back because I don't want people to, you know, if they really are trying to follow the story, which they shouldn't be at this point, maybe we'll just. We'll just have this one be about Doctrine and Covenant, Section 121, briefly. Because, look, when we get to this, I mean, I didn't even. I didn't even approach this the way that I would approach it. When we get to it in search these commandments which will be.
- [53:28]
C
We're never going to get there. But my gosh, that's going to be in. That is going to be an entire year just on that.
- [53:34]
B
It would take me a great amount of time. I will try to mix in some portions of the Missouri stuff in, like, throw it into like section 115 and 116, but will be. It will be a lot when we get to section 121 through 123, it.
- [53:53]
C
Is, I mean, Liberty Jail has such a unique place in, in our, in our history. And, and so I, I mean, the context leading to it and the things that happen there, you're describing what's happening as Joseph Smith is just filled. I think all of, the context of all of that is so great for verses that I think are beloved in the church. And a story that is, while as well known as it is, is still really not known in the detail that helps fill in the gaps of some of the things that are going on.
- [54:30]
B
Yeah. And I would say to everybody listening, I don't know your suffering. Everybody has different trials. Some of you suffer in ways that are indescribable and yet you still maintain your faith. And I would just thank you for your faith. Thank you for being a modern day pioneer, someone who holds on to the faith despite the difficult circumstances that you're in. But that is the great promise of Christianity, is that at some point, at some point, all of your sufferings will have an end and you will be happy. And there won't be any more tears, there won't be any more suffering. That's the religion we believe in. Yes, there is pain. Yes, there's unfairness. Yes, there's suffering. But there will come a time in the resurrection when there is no more suffering. And we believe it somehow God will make right the horrible things that have happened to us in our lives. And we have to trust in that. So if you are someone who is struggling, someone who is suffering, let those words speak to you and remember that there will come a time when God will make up for all of it. But we still have to endure. So thank you so much for joining us and we will get back to our story about who's dead and in hell. Apparently a lot of the Missouri mobbers are. We'll get back to our story of who's dead and in hell on our next episode. Thanks so much.
- [56:20]
A
Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.