Standard of Truth – S5E46 “Dead and in Hell” Part 4

Date: November 6, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Standard of Truth podcast, Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc return to their multi-part exploration of the mid-19th-century Saints’ experiences, with a focus on church history, changing leadership dynamics, and post-Joseph Smith schisms. The episode features a detailed dive into Doctrine & Covenants sections 125–126, a listener Q&A (including Bickertonite/LDS differences), and the long-awaited resumption of their “Dead and in Hell” series with discussion of William Smith’s 1849 remonstrance to Congress against the Utah Saints.

As always, the episode balances rigorous historical analysis, practical insights for Latter-day Saints, and the hosts’ signature humor.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Charity Promotion and Light Banter (00:55–11:00)

• The hosts joke about the impossibility of pleasing everyone with either multipart or single-topic episodes.
• They promote a fundraiser for Sweetwater Rescue at Hug Hess locations: proceeds from meals support helping Latter-day Saints in rural, impoverished areas get to the temple (Lithuania, Argentina, Peru previously benefited).
  • Memorable Moment:
    • “Why did you gain four pounds? I was getting a lot of people to the temple!” – Dr. Leduc (06:56)
• Amusing discussion about being recognized at church, Sunday School teacher expectations, and using podcast content (“Christie’s Corner”) to sound informed during lessons.

2. Sunday School & “Christie’s Corner”: D&C 125–126 Deep Dive

(13:47–24:27)

2.1 The Context of D&C 125:

• Joseph Smith’s revelation that Saints should gather closer to Nauvoo, not scatter into isolated settlements, is seen as prophetic foresight—protecting Saints from later violence after Joseph’s death.
  • “That shows you that in 1841 even when the violence from Missouri has passed...God, of course, knows things before we know them. That’s the best part about believing in God.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (16:45)

2.2 D&C 126 and the Evolution of Apostolic Authority:

• Section 126 directs Brigham Young to stay in Nauvoo, signaling a shift from apostles’ purely “traveling” authority to more central leadership within HQ.
• The 1841 conference: Brigham Young, at Joseph’s request, presides in Nauvoo—uncommon at the time; Joseph soon after publicly affirms the Twelve’s increasing role in leading the church at the center.
  • “The time had come when the 12 should be called upon to stand in their place next to the First Presidency...they had borne the burden of the heat of the day...” – Minutes paraphrased by Dr. Dirkmaat (22:18)

2.3 Practical Tips and Humor:

• Advice for sounding knowledgeable in Sunday School by bringing up these lesser-known background details.
  • “If you want your friends to think you’re cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool—it’s Christie’s Corner.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (13:58)
  • “Remember, you have to start talking before they even start the lesson... The lesson plan is now you.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (24:52)

3. Listener Q&A: Differences Between LDS and Bickertonites

(31:01–50:53)

3.1 Who Are the Bickertonites?

• The Bickertonites, or “The Church of Jesus Christ” (headquartered in Monongahela, PA), formed out of Sidney Rigdon’s branch after Joseph Smith’s death; William Bickerton was never a member under Joseph Smith but joined via Rigdon’s movement in 1845.
• Core differences:
  • Accept the Book of Mormon, reject Doctrine & Covenants and all Joseph Smith’s revelations after the Book of Mormon’s translation.
  • No mention of Joseph Smith in their Articles of Faith; focus is entirely on Christ, Bible, Book of Mormon.
  • Strong stance against polygamy (with extended discussion/quotes from Bickertonite pamphlets).
• Notable Quote:
  • “If you take Methodism and insert the Book of Mormon, that’s kind of what you end up with, with the Church of Jesus Christ.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (41:22)
• Bridge-building advice: Express genuine love of the Book of Mormon; focus on common ground.

3.2 Relations with Mainline LDS:

• Mainstream Latter-day Saints rarely consider Bickertonites at all.
• Historically, some offshoots have taken antagonistic stance against LDS, especially on polygamy; more recently, individuals are generally kind and Christlike.

3.3 Q&As and Additional Fun:

• Humorous listener experiences about getting “banished” to Primary after trying to sound smart (see Jeff’s email, (27:32–29:11)).
• Mini-segment on U.S. states with the most and least townships (Minnesota and Rhode Island, respectively).
  • “The problem is they stop having townships the further west you move...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (52:15)

4. Quote Source: “I Have No Fear of a Hell That Don’t Exist”

(53:06–54:33)

• The line comes from Joseph Smith’s King Follett Sermon, as recorded by Wilford Woodruff.
• Context: Joseph Smith teaching God’s “provision for every spirit,” except those who commit the unpardonable sin.
  • “He’s talking about the fact that we can help save our friends on the other side... God has made provision for every spirit in the eternal world.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (54:08)

5. Back to “Dead and in Hell”: William Smith’s 1849 Remonstrance

(54:38–73:10)

5.1 Setting the Stage:

• Efforts by Utah Saints to organize Deseret are threatened not just by politics, but by internal opposition.
• William Smith (Joseph’s brother) submits a scathing petition to Congress (“remonstrance”), painting Brigham Young and Utah Mormons as treasonous, polygamous, and criminal.

5.2 Key Excerpts and Analysis:

• Remonstrance accuses the Utah Saints of:

  • Uniting church and state;
  • Oath-bound vengeance against the U.S.;
  • Teaching and practicing polygamy, “incest and all manner of wickedness”;
  • Fleeing justice for murder, robbery, etc.
  • (Full reading with commentary begins at (55:01))

• William Smith claims Brigham Young ordered assassins to kill him, robbed him, and oppressed the Prophet’s widow/mother, Lucy Mack Smith—though there’s no evidence.

  • “Every single negative thing is attributed to Brigham Young...he’s terrible at all of it, right?” – Dr. Dirkmaat (62:41)
  • “William Smith is going to make the allegation that Brigham Young is currently sending assassins to kill him... Of course, they are really bad at their job...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (61:48)

• Organizations and controversies around Saints are quickly seized by anti-Mormon forces, and the remonstrance is widely circulated in Congress.

5.3 Historical Context & Consequences:

• The remonstrance gains extra credibility due to William’s status as Joseph’s brother, despite his history of contentiousness and frequent break with church leadership.
  • “It certainly carries a ton more weight, right? So when someone says, I’m Joseph Smith’s brother and Joseph Smith never taught this...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (61:39)
• Irony: Despite publicly claiming Young sought his death, William would later write to Brigham Young asking to be reinstated in church leadership.
  • “Pretty odd behavior from someone who’s constantly...trying not to be murdered by this man.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (67:56)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you want your friends to think you’re cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool—it’s Christie’s Corner.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (13:58)
• “I mean, in a way, we all created [the church] in 1847.” – Dr. Leduc (09:06)
• “Why did you gain four pounds? I was getting a lot of people to the temple.” – Dr. Leduc (06:56)
• “If you take Methodism and insert the Book of Mormon, that’s kind of what you end up with, with the Church of Jesus Christ.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (41:22)
• “He has no fear of hellfire that doesn’t exist.” – Quoting King Follett Sermon via Wilford Woodruff (54:08–54:33)
• “Every single negative thing is attributed to Brigham Young…and then at the same time he’s terrible at all of it, right?” – Dr. Dirkmaat (62:41)

Important Timestamps

• 00:55–07:01: Hug Hess/Sweetwater Rescue Charity, temple access for global Saints.
• 13:47–24:27: In-depth analysis of D&C 125–126 and evolving apostolic leadership.
• 31:01–50:53: Listener Q&A about Bickertonites and LDS/Bickertonite relations.
• 53:06–54:33: Source of “I have no fear of a hell that don’t exist” quote.
• 54:38–73:10: Main “Dead and in Hell” content: William Smith’s remonstrance, analysis, impact.
• 73:10–74:05: Wrap-up, reminder for charity fundraiser, and lighthearted closing.

Conclusion

This episode blends practical, faith-promoting history—such as the rationale for early gathering in Nauvoo and the rising authority of the Twelve—with more arcane but fascinating elements, including Restoration offshoots' beliefs and a blow-by-blow of William Smith’s infamous denunciation of Brigham Young and the Utah Saints. Throughout, Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc weave in tips and humor for today’s Latter-day Saints, always with a mind toward both scholarly and spiritual growth.

For further study:

• King Follett Sermon (Wilford Woodruff version)
• Doctrine & Covenants 125–126
• “Remonstrance of William Smith…” Congressional Records, Dec. 31, 1849

Next episode: Fallout from William Smith’s remonstrance and (eventually!) more on “who’s dead and in hell.”