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S5E46 Dead and in Hell Part 4

Standard of Truth

Thu Nov 06 2025

Summary

Standard of Truth – S5E46 “Dead and in Hell” Part 4

Date: November 6, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Standard of Truth podcast, Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc return to their multi-part exploration of the mid-19th-century Saints’ experiences, with a focus on church history, changing leadership dynamics, and post-Joseph Smith schisms. The episode features a detailed dive into Doctrine & Covenants sections 125–126, a listener Q&A (including Bickertonite/LDS differences), and the long-awaited resumption of their “Dead and in Hell” series with discussion of William Smith’s 1849 remonstrance to Congress against the Utah Saints.

As always, the episode balances rigorous historical analysis, practical insights for Latter-day Saints, and the hosts’ signature humor.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Charity Promotion and Light Banter (00:55–11:00)

The hosts joke about the impossibility of pleasing everyone with either multipart or single-topic episodes.
They promote a fundraiser for Sweetwater Rescue at Hug Hess locations: proceeds from meals support helping Latter-day Saints in rural, impoverished areas get to the temple (Lithuania, Argentina, Peru previously benefited).
- Memorable Moment:
  - “Why did you gain four pounds? I was getting a lot of people to the temple!” – Dr. Leduc (06:56)
Amusing discussion about being recognized at church, Sunday School teacher expectations, and using podcast content (“Christie’s Corner”) to sound informed during lessons.

2. Sunday School & “Christie’s Corner”: D&C 125–126 Deep Dive

(13:47–24:27)

2.1 The Context of D&C 125:

Joseph Smith’s revelation that Saints should gather closer to Nauvoo, not scatter into isolated settlements, is seen as prophetic foresight—protecting Saints from later violence after Joseph’s death.
- “That shows you that in 1841 even when the violence from Missouri has passed...God, of course, knows things before we know them. That’s the best part about believing in God.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (16:45)

2.2 D&C 126 and the Evolution of Apostolic Authority:

Section 126 directs Brigham Young to stay in Nauvoo, signaling a shift from apostles’ purely “traveling” authority to more central leadership within HQ.
The 1841 conference: Brigham Young, at Joseph’s request, presides in Nauvoo—uncommon at the time; Joseph soon after publicly affirms the Twelve’s increasing role in leading the church at the center.
- “The time had come when the 12 should be called upon to stand in their place next to the First Presidency...they had borne the burden of the heat of the day...” – Minutes paraphrased by Dr. Dirkmaat (22:18)

2.3 Practical Tips and Humor:

Advice for sounding knowledgeable in Sunday School by bringing up these lesser-known background details.
- “If you want your friends to think you’re cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool—it’s Christie’s Corner.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (13:58)
- “Remember, you have to start talking before they even start the lesson... The lesson plan is now you.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (24:52)

3. Listener Q&A: Differences Between LDS and Bickertonites

(31:01–50:53)

3.1 Who Are the Bickertonites?

The Bickertonites, or “The Church of Jesus Christ” (headquartered in Monongahela, PA), formed out of Sidney Rigdon’s branch after Joseph Smith’s death; William Bickerton was never a member under Joseph Smith but joined via Rigdon’s movement in 1845.
Core differences:
- Accept the Book of Mormon, reject Doctrine & Covenants and all Joseph Smith’s revelations after the Book of Mormon’s translation.
- No mention of Joseph Smith in their Articles of Faith; focus is entirely on Christ, Bible, Book of Mormon.
- Strong stance against polygamy (with extended discussion/quotes from Bickertonite pamphlets).
Notable Quote:
- “If you take Methodism and insert the Book of Mormon, that’s kind of what you end up with, with the Church of Jesus Christ.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (41:22)
Bridge-building advice: Express genuine love of the Book of Mormon; focus on common ground.

3.2 Relations with Mainline LDS:

Mainstream Latter-day Saints rarely consider Bickertonites at all.
Historically, some offshoots have taken antagonistic stance against LDS, especially on polygamy; more recently, individuals are generally kind and Christlike.

3.3 Q&As and Additional Fun:

Humorous listener experiences about getting “banished” to Primary after trying to sound smart (see Jeff’s email, (27:32–29:11)).
Mini-segment on U.S. states with the most and least townships (Minnesota and Rhode Island, respectively).
- “The problem is they stop having townships the further west you move...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (52:15)

4. Quote Source: “I Have No Fear of a Hell That Don’t Exist”

(53:06–54:33)

The line comes from Joseph Smith’s King Follett Sermon, as recorded by Wilford Woodruff.
Context: Joseph Smith teaching God’s “provision for every spirit,” except those who commit the unpardonable sin.
- “He’s talking about the fact that we can help save our friends on the other side... God has made provision for every spirit in the eternal world.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (54:08)

5. Back to “Dead and in Hell”: William Smith’s 1849 Remonstrance

(54:38–73:10)

5.1 Setting the Stage:

Efforts by Utah Saints to organize Deseret are threatened not just by politics, but by internal opposition.
William Smith (Joseph’s brother) submits a scathing petition to Congress (“remonstrance”), painting Brigham Young and Utah Mormons as treasonous, polygamous, and criminal.

5.2 Key Excerpts and Analysis:

Remonstrance accuses the Utah Saints of:
- Uniting church and state;
- Oath-bound vengeance against the U.S.;
- Teaching and practicing polygamy, “incest and all manner of wickedness”;
- Fleeing justice for murder, robbery, etc.
- (Full reading with commentary begins at (55:01))
William Smith claims Brigham Young ordered assassins to kill him, robbed him, and oppressed the Prophet’s widow/mother, Lucy Mack Smith—though there’s no evidence.
- “Every single negative thing is attributed to Brigham Young...he’s terrible at all of it, right?” – Dr. Dirkmaat (62:41)
- “William Smith is going to make the allegation that Brigham Young is currently sending assassins to kill him... Of course, they are really bad at their job...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (61:48)
Organizations and controversies around Saints are quickly seized by anti-Mormon forces, and the remonstrance is widely circulated in Congress.

5.3 Historical Context & Consequences:

The remonstrance gains extra credibility due to William’s status as Joseph’s brother, despite his history of contentiousness and frequent break with church leadership.
- “It certainly carries a ton more weight, right? So when someone says, I’m Joseph Smith’s brother and Joseph Smith never taught this...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (61:39)
Irony: Despite publicly claiming Young sought his death, William would later write to Brigham Young asking to be reinstated in church leadership.
- “Pretty odd behavior from someone who’s constantly...trying not to be murdered by this man.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (67:56)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“If you want your friends to think you’re cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool—it’s Christie’s Corner.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (13:58)
“I mean, in a way, we all created [the church] in 1847.” – Dr. Leduc (09:06)
“Why did you gain four pounds? I was getting a lot of people to the temple.” – Dr. Leduc (06:56)
“If you take Methodism and insert the Book of Mormon, that’s kind of what you end up with, with the Church of Jesus Christ.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (41:22)
“He has no fear of hellfire that doesn’t exist.” – Quoting King Follett Sermon via Wilford Woodruff (54:08–54:33)
“Every single negative thing is attributed to Brigham Young…and then at the same time he’s terrible at all of it, right?” – Dr. Dirkmaat (62:41)

Important Timestamps

00:55–07:01: Hug Hess/Sweetwater Rescue Charity, temple access for global Saints.
13:47–24:27: In-depth analysis of D&C 125–126 and evolving apostolic leadership.
31:01–50:53: Listener Q&A about Bickertonites and LDS/Bickertonite relations.
53:06–54:33: Source of “I have no fear of a hell that don’t exist” quote.
54:38–73:10: Main “Dead and in Hell” content: William Smith’s remonstrance, analysis, impact.
73:10–74:05: Wrap-up, reminder for charity fundraiser, and lighthearted closing.

Conclusion

This episode blends practical, faith-promoting history—such as the rationale for early gathering in Nauvoo and the rising authority of the Twelve—with more arcane but fascinating elements, including Restoration offshoots' beliefs and a blow-by-blow of William Smith’s infamous denunciation of Brigham Young and the Utah Saints. Throughout, Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc weave in tips and humor for today’s Latter-day Saints, always with a mind toward both scholarly and spiritual growth.

For further study:

King Follett Sermon (Wilford Woodruff version)
Doctrine & Covenants 125–126
“Remonstrance of William Smith…” Congressional Records, Dec. 31, 1849

Next episode: Fallout from William Smith’s remonstrance and (eventually!) more on “who’s dead and in hell.”

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Transcript

A (0:01)

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

B (0:29)

Foreign hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

C (0:46)

Hello Garrett. Thanks for having me back. Excited to be here to discuss and finally find out who's dead and in hell.

B (0:55)

I mean, we're not really going to get to that. Richard and I were talking about the main problem with doing multi part series is that no one cares about them at all. And then they'll email in mocking us about the fact that we haven't finished it. And the funny part is, so then I'll stop doing multi part series and then people will email in. Like, I feel like all you guys are doing is short issues now and you're not doing multi parters. So I think what that demonstrates is that as human beings we can never be satisfied. You know, like the song and the play, Hamilton, you'll never be satisfied regardless of what we come up with. But you know what will satisfy you is if on Thursday, Friday and Saturday of this week, I mean this is November 6, November 7, November 8. If you go to any of the Hug Hess locations in Utah, there are six of them. Now, they are all very northern. If you happen to be someone living in, you know, I'm guessing that there's, I'm guessing there's not a lot of people in, you know, Fillmore headed up.

C (2:05)

But these are in, these are in Syracuse, Centerville, Layton, North Ogden, Stansbury park and Ogden. And, and I every time, this is our third time, we've announced it. Every time I've announced it, I've omitted details and made the owners of Hug Hess incredibly frustrated as I can only imagine as I continue to blow it. But they're.

B (2:28)

Did you tell them that as bad as you've done on the promotion, that was us editing it to make you sound better?

C (2:34)

That's the thing. I'm like, this is legitimately as good as I can do because their charity knows no bounds and they continue to offer more and more and I continue to blow it as they are just so kind because Garrett, there's an additional piece is the first 49 people that go, you know, today, tomorrow or Saturday to A Hughes location. And mention Sweetwater Rescue, that 100% of the proceeds of that meal go toward the. The charity for the first 29 people.

B (13:47)

Yeah, there is praying, but also. Ouch. Anyway, so, yes, we're going to be talking about section 126. I'm going to give you some insights that you can use to try to become, you know, the primary president or, you know, possibly the second counselor in Sunday school. This is your way in when you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're cool when you want to seem wise and not a fool. It's Christie's Corner. A lot to cover here. My guess is in most of your classes, you're actually going to cover sections 127 and 128 more. That's because they're about baptisms for the dead, and that's a favorite topic. And so you might spend time on that. But I wanted to spend a little bit of time on Doctrine and Covenant, section 126, you know what, heavens. Actually, maybe I'll say 125 as well. 125. This revelation that they're given, talking about where they should establish settlements in and around Nauvoo. And what's really interesting is that Joseph will say that this revelation came because the Saints shouldn't be too scattered abroad. And then he actually invokes, at least according to one account of the conference, when he brings this up, that you have Hans Mill for an example, that, you know, you don't want to have a Latter Day Saint settlement isolated 50 miles away from Nauvoo, because what if there's violence? So that shows you that in 1841, even when the violence from Missouri has passed, they're not in Missouri. And even though in Illinois things have been pretty good, they've been pretty good in part because the Democrats control the Illinois legislature, although the Whigs are making very big inroads. Remember, this is the Illinois of Abraham Lincoln. Right. The Whigs, which Abraham Lincoln was a Whig, they are always in this slight minority in the state, but they were making up ground every year. And so all of a sudden, thousands of Latter Day Saints come flooding into Illinois. And those thousands of Latter Day Saints just so happened to vote almost universally Democrat. And so early on in the first couple of years that the Saints are in Illinois, the Democratic state party apparatus is generally pro Latter Day Saint, helping them create the Nauvoo City Charter, which gives them broad powers, helping them, you know, lay out their. Their. Their purchases in their cities. And so what's really interesting is in March of 1841, there really was no indicator that the government or the populace in Illinois was going to turn against them. So this is one of those revelations that Joseph Smith receives that is kind of a foreshadowing, right, because it's natural when everyone's moving to Nauvoo to go, you know, why don't we just go build a settlement 20 miles away from Nauvoo? And then we're still close, but now the land's super cheap, and we can, you know, we can still have the benefits of being close to the city, but we have all the inexpense of not being right in Nauvoo itself. And this revelation explains where the Saints should settle. And instead of these kind of far flung stakes that have been established already in Illinois away from Nauvoo, it kind of brings them all back closer to the center, a tighter gathering. And in fact, when the violence does take place after Joseph's murder and the mobs begin to burn out, it's these outlying Latter Day Saint settlements like Yell, Rome and Lima that are going to be hit the hardest by this violence. But it's not nearly as disjointed. And you don't have the same kind of gigantic massacre that you do in Missouri, in part because the Saints are gathered closer together. And that comes from this Revelation doctrine covenant section125, received at a time when there was no reason to be afraid that there would be mob violence. But God, of course, knows things before we know them. That's the best part about believing in God. Now, section 126, you know, you're getting a twofer here. This revelation, you know, telling Brigham Young that he's going to, you know, stay home and not toil. You could. You could pass right over that and not even think about it a whole lot. But remember, the entire point of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is they are to be traveling a traveling high Council. Now, again, when we say high council today, it's just like, yeah, every person I've ever known has been on the high council. I say it blithely. I've never been on a high council, so I guess I shouldn't say it that way, but. But there's hundreds of thousands of current and former high councilmen in the church because every stake has a high council. And, you know, not everyone serves on it forever. I mean, obviously you get changed in and out. But in the early days of the church, there were no stakes, or very few stakes, depending on. Now we're getting into Nauvoo, there's going to be a few more. And so you had a high council at the seat of government of the church, at the. At the headquarters of the church, and you had a traveling high council, which is what the of the 12 was designed to do. And so they had authority outside of the headquarters of the church. Their duty was to essentially run the church everywhere that Joseph wasn't. Well, doctrine covenant section 126 tells Brigham Young that he's going to stay in Nauvoo for a little while. It's no more required for you to leave your families in times past. Now, of course, Brigham Young still is. In fact, he's going to be on yet another mission when Joseph Smith is murdered three years later. But this is a revelation that kind of demonstrates the changing nature of the apostleship, that they are moving from apostles who have a great deal of authority in the church, but don't really wield authority in Nauvoo to a group that wields authority in Nauvoo. And we actually see this in a conference that is held in August of 1841. They have a conference that they're supposed to meet at. People show up for the conference, and presiding on the standard is Brigham Young, president of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. And Brigham Young is well aware that that's not what his duty is supposed to be. Because they're in Nauvoo, he's not supposed to preside over conferences in Nauvoo because the quorum of the 12 has authority outside of Nauvoo. It would be like, you know, it would be like your stake president traveling to a different stake and presiding over that stake meeting. Right. People like, well, look, I know you're a stake president. I know you've got authority. You just don't. You just don't have it here. Right. Obviously, apostles had much, much more authority than a stake president. There's Not a very good analogy in this sense. I could say bishop, but they don't really have a general population of bishops yet either. So part of the problem with using analogies as the church is unfolding is there very few things that actually fit as the restoration unfolds. But Brigham Young presides over the meeting, and the first thing he says when he gets up is, I don't want anyone here to think that I'm trying to usurp some authority. Joseph told me to come preside over this meeting. And the very fact that Brigham Young says that demonstrates to you that he knew that everyone in attendance would be like, wait a minute. Why is the president of the quorum of the 12 presiding at a conference in Nauvoo? You guys preside at conferences outside of Nauvoo, not in Nauvoo. And the reason why Joseph wasn't there, very tragically, actually, is that his young little boy, his young son, Don Carlos, had passed away the night before. And so that morning, instead of being at the conference, Joseph was burying his son. But he comes to the afternoon session, and the minutes of the conference say this. President Joseph Smith, now arriving, proceeded to state to the conference at considerable length the object of their present meeting. In addition to what President Brigham Young had said in the morning and said that the time had come when the 12 should be called upon to stand in their place next to the First Presidency and attend to the settling of immigrants and to the business of the church at the stakes, and to assist to bear off the kingdom victorious to the nation. And as they had been faithful and had borne the burden of the heat of the day, that it was right that they should have an opportunity of providing something for themselves and their families. So, again, just like what you see in Doctrine and Covenant, section 126, and at the same time, relieve him so that he might attend to the business of translating. Because at the time, Joseph Smith translating the Book of Abraham. And so you see this shift, this very public shift, Brigham Young saying, hey, I know I'm not supposed to preside, but Joseph told me to come preside. And then you have Joseph coming to the afternoon session saying, yeah, Brigham Young did exactly what I told him to do, and it's time for the quorum of the 12. Almost like they've proven themselves. They've borne the burden of the heat of the day, and now they need to help him lead the church in Nauvoo, and they start taking a bigger and bigger and bigger role. So that is what's going to help you become at least second counselor in the Stake primary presidency. Right, Richard, you think that will that get them there?

B (31:01)

Yeah, so I desperately want to get to who's dead and in hell. We have so many people wondering if I don't find out what president's in hell. But here's the thing. I thought this was a good question that I thought maybe engage on. What he's referring to is one of the largest branches of they don't call themselves Latter Day Saints, so, I mean, they don't call themselves Mormons either, but you could call it a restoration branch. So they are sometimes referred to as Bickertonites. They're based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania. And so he's asking, you know, what's the difference and how can we reach out? Now, I think in general, there have certainly been better relations between members of our church and their church than there had been. But if you're asking what their difference is, I mean, every group that's a breakaway group has different things that they focus on or not. Probably the most stark difference that you would find if you were to go to a meeting. Now, look, they've got a lot of things that are the same, okay? They don't have a paid ministry. They believe that you have to have baptism in order to be saved. So like already, they are different than every other Protestant religion. Right. Because baptism by immersion is essential. Right. And they believe the Book of Mormon is absolutely the word of God. And they quote from it. They love it. I've met multiple members of it's called the Church of Jesus Christ is what their official title to their church is. They quote from the Book of Mormon all the time. So if you're asking what's a way to build bridges or how could I have a conversation with them, man, you have a conversation about how much you love the Book of Mormon and you're going to have a four hour conversation with them about the parts of the Book of Mormon you love the most. So that is really the closest thing. Now here's what you would find if you were to look at like, you know, they have a handout called what We Believe, you know, that has a list of kind of some articles of faith. They're not the same articles of faith from the Wentworth Letter, but you know, they all start with we believe this, we believe this. Right. You would find it very interesting that while it is littered with references to the Book of Mormon and the Bible. So, you know, we believe in this. And then, you know, so, you know, let me give you a for instance. This is something that sets them apart from Protestants. We believe obedience to the Gospel is necessary to obtain salvation by taking the following actions. Believe and have faith that Jesus Christ is the risen Savior of the Lord. Honest Goddess, repent of your sins with a desire to sin no more. Be baptized by immersion in water for a remission of sins. Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Live righteously, remain faithful and endure to the end of your life. Now that, I mean, right now it's like I just gave a talk in sacrament meeting, right? I mean that things are sounding pretty good. In fact, one of the bullet points to this is men are not accountable for the sin of Adam which was atoned for by Christ. Men are to be punished for their own transgressions. Little children are represented as characteristic of heaven. So you could see there's a lot of things there that you're like, wow. But what you won't find on this statement of beliefs is even a reference to not even a word to Joseph Smith. And it's actually one of the most salient features of the Church of Jesus Christ or the Bickertonites. Again, they don't really want to call themselves that. Some of them, their followers will just like you'll still call yourself a Mormon to help people, but they're called the Church of Jesus Christ, and they have tens of thousands of members total. So, I mean, they are large. They're the third largest, you know, restoration branch after the Community of Christ, you know, most likely, anyway. It's hard to tell with numbers of some other. At least of the branches that broke off when Joseph died. Obviously, there's. There's others that broke off at other times. But, yeah, Joseph Smith isn't even mentioned anywhere in it. And so William Bickerton, he actually was not a member of the church that Joseph Smith started. So Joseph Smith is murdered. And we all know. I mean, probably the thing about the aftermath of Joseph's murder that Latter Day Saints know the best is that Sidney Rigdon was one of the people who came along and said, you know what? I should be the guardian of the church. And for a long time, Brigham Young will labor with Sidney Rigdon saying, look, the keys. Joseph gave the keys to the quorum of the 12. And, you know, Sidney Rigdon's argument is undercut by Amos Aliman, who himself is a member of the first presidency and backs the quorum of the 12. Right. So when you're arguing, well, I'm a member of the First Presidency, so I have the authority to lead the church. And Lyman stands up and is like, well, I'm also a member of the First Presidency. And I say, we don't have the authority to lead the church. Well, you know, that. That's a. You know, Sidney Rigdon would have rather that Lyman didn't show up that day.

B (37:07)

Because that's a. Oh, yeah. Really undercuts the argument. But when Brigham Young stops laboring with. With Sidney Rigdon is when Sidney Rigdon alleges that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and says that the church had not been led by the Spirit for a long time, for Brigham Young, that was the end of it. And we talked about that. We actually did a. We. We had another episode where we talked about Sidney Rigdon and. And his apostasy and the things surrounding that. So Rigdon's going to leave. He's going to be cut off, excommunicated. Rigdon goes back to Pennsylvania, which is where he's from, and there are some followers who follow him, very few from. From Nauvoo. It's probably fewer. I mean, into the dozens at most. He really gets most of his followers from, like, the eastern branches. And one of the reasons why he's able to do this, in fact, James Strang has the same effect because he's going to argue, hey, they're practicing polygamy in Nauvoo. They're saying that God became God. You know, those are all not, you know, they might be in Garret Dirkmotz first discussion when he meets people on their mission, but it's not what most of the average people are being taught on their mission. And so it's from these new converts or from people in these Eastern branches that you get more people. Well, William Bickerton is one of the people who gets baptized by Sidney Rigdon, well into the, the, into the, the Rigdonite Church. He's not baptized by Sidney Rigdon himself, but not until June of 1845. So he was never a part, at least at that point, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So Rigdon's in this, you know, difficult position, right, where he obviously is a part of some of these great revelations and whatnot. But Rigdon and Bickerton are going to have a split. Rigdon tries to set up kind of like a, I mean, he wanted to create a, like a, not, I don't want to use the word socialist, but, you know, a commune where everyone shared things equally, like trying to create a Zion society. And that led to a bunch of disagreements and eventually, you know, Rigdon kind of gets kicked out of his own church and a bunch of followers of Rigdon start to gravitate towards to Bickerton. Now, Bickerton had been a Methodist, so one of the things that's really interesting, if you were to take Methodism, so this is this Arminian belief that you have to accept Jesus, that salvation is a lifelong process. If you were to take Methodism and insert the Book of Mormon, that's kind of what you end up with, with the Church of Jesus Christ. You know, Bickerton doesn't know really what to do after, you know, the falling out with Rigdon. And in fact, they are for a time baptized into the Latter Day Saint Church, into our church by some missionaries. But one of the biggest things that they are not okay with is plural marriage. And it's that way, obviously, with a lot of these offshoot branches. So they're going to form their own church. As to, you know, what's the relationship between our church and their church? Well, once our church becomes the main church, I mean, I, I think while you, while living in the east, you know, you, you do. I, I get it. I, I've been there. It does feel a little bit lonely and there's not very many members, and I hope you do reach out to them and Create relationships with them. They're great people. I mean, every member of the Church of Jesus Christ that I have met, the Bickertonite, you know, Saints is just a great person and why wouldn't they be? They've completely centered their life on the Book of Mormon. I mean, they absolutely believe it's the word of God and they try to live a righteous life. I don't think that. I mean, I'm guessing that there's a considerable number of listeners right now, not Richard, of course, but maybe Richard in Sunday School that didn't even really know that this church existed. Right. So when you say, you know, why are they treated poorly or, you know, suggest they might be treated poorly by Latter Day Saints, I frankly think it's more often than not they're not treated at all. Right. They're not really ever thought about. And that's pretty natural when you think about the fact that, you know, there's 17 million Latter Day Saints. And so, yeah, on a local level, they might, you know, want to get in some arguments about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith to members of the Bickertonite, you know, Branch, mainly, they don't really think about them at all. And I'm not saying that's good. I'm just saying that's probably the most likely thing. Some of their differences in belief would make it hard. Like, for instance, on their own website, on their own things that they put out, they do not mention Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is not a part of it. So they don't actually tell you where the Book of Mormon came from. They don't tell you that it was translated by. And they also don't accept as scripture any of the Doctrine and Covenants. That's why I said it's more like you take Methodism and you mix in the Book of Mormon. But other doctrines that you think are very important that come from the Doctrine and Covenants, from revelations Joseph received, they aren't there. And frankly, the smaller groups often take a very antagonistic approach to members of our faith. Again, this is in the past. I mean, obviously there's individuals that are individuals. Every bicker tonight I've ever met has been nothing but a great disciple of Jesus Christ and very kind to me and someone who you could see the light of Christ in. But if you look at some of their literature, you can see the reason why you might have a hard time, you know, just thinking everything's great, you know what I mean? You know, they have a pamphlet they published, they've republished it multiple times. Which is a statement of their beliefs. And, you know, look, it says things in it that are great. Our faith is exclusively on the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Because our belief in the Book of Mormon, we have at times. This is how they open their pamphlet. Because of our belief in the Book of Mormon, we have at times been mistakenly referred to as a faction broken away from the Utah Mormons. We do therefore declare that we are entirely a distinct and separate church without affiliations to any other church or groups of the restoration movement, nor are we affiliated with any other religious group or people or church, regardless of their denomination. So their statement of faith is we are not them. And I could see that. I mean, because we would say the same thing. If someone's like, oh, yeah, I met one of you Mormons. They didn't believe in the Doctrine and Covenants. You'd be like, well, look, we do. We would say that we do. But this is in their pamphlet that they publish. We would state that the Book of Mormon has been shamefully misrepresented. And we desire every lover of truth to read it for themselves as they cannot afford to rely on the common report concerning any matter connected with their soul salvation. We hereby assure all men that it teaches nothing contrary to purity and sound doctrine. And its history of dealings with God with aborigines of this land. It contains a vast amount of prophetic matter of unlimited importance bearing on the future. It is impossible for lovers of virtue and truth who are reasonably free from prejudice to carefully peruse its contents without experiencing delight and satisfaction. I think we'd agree on all that. I mean, right here we agree. Right? Or for persons who are soaked in greed, hypocrisy and sensuality, to read this book without being maddened by its stinging reproaches of their character and conduct. It affords cold comfort for polygamists or bigamists. Jacob, the ancient prophet of the Lord of this land, writes as follows, whereby the Lord God will not suffer, this people shall do like unto them of old time, meaning David and Solomon with their many wives. Wherefore my brethren shall hear me and hearken to the word of the Lord. For there shall not any man among you have, save it be, one wife and concubines, you shall have none. For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And the whoredoms are an abomination before me. Thus saith the Lord of Hosts. This is not the only instance, by any means where polygamy is condemned by the Book of Mormon. The Almighty commanded Lehi when he brought him to this land, positively against the practice of polygamy. Old King Noah was condemned by Abinadi for the same offense. Replicas is also condemned to the Book of Ether for the same abomination. Therefore we believe that a man shall have saved be only one wife and a woman, only one husband, and base our faith especially upon the Book of Mormon in this particular. So you know, our church doesn't have in its statement of faith a statement about here's the reason why anyone who doesn't accept the Doctrine and Covenants is an apostate. You know, I mean, that can be implied, but it's not what we hand out to people. So one of the reasons why I think there's sometimes some tension is, look, they are making a direct argument. Now. You'll notice that they don't quote the whole verse, right? They don't say, for if I will raise up seed unto myself, I will command my people. I don't know why they left that part of the Scriptures out, almost as if it undercuts the argument. But they're making this claim, a religious claim and they're welcome to make whatever claim they want. But it's their, it's a doctrinal claim of their church, not just of their members, that the Book of Mormon precludes any practice of polygamy as being ordained of God. And that might, you know, sound really great to some of the people listening because you don't like polygamy and you don't, you, you wish that it never in practice as well that I, I understand that. At the same time, if we believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff are prophets, then we believe that the Book of Mormon does not preclude God commanding people to practice polygamy. So I think the main differences are they don't accept any aspect of the Doctrine and Covenants or the revelations of Joseph Smith. In fact, in this entire nine page statement of faith, the word Joseph Smith does not appear in it. If you were investigating this church and you were to ask where the Book of Mormon came from, they would essentially say it was miraculous and it's a record of people who lived in America, which is true. I mean, I'm on board with that. But they wouldn't even talk about the translation of it in this statement of faith. Right? So I think that's where they'd be. But you know what, I encourage you. Reach out to them. I mean, you will find good godly people. You're probably not going to convince them of our church. But if I were to talk to someone, and that's what I was trying to do, I would say, hey, look, we both believe in the Book of Mormon. What if we at least looked at the revelations Joseph Smith received while he was translating the Book of Mormon? Because I think you and I can both agree that while he was translating, he was inspired by God and maybe read those. Maybe that would be helpful. But yeah, great people. You should absolutely be kind and grateful if you have them as your friends and neighbors. But obviously they would disagree with the things that we believe and that's kind of how things work out. We have basically no time, right, Richard?

B (55:01)

Someone's like, well, I don't know. I mean, who even are the Cutlerites? And then three episodes later, I'm like, okay, we're done with them. But we last left you talking about how there was an attempt to create this mega California that fell apart because of, you know, politics. It's hard to believe that politics was ineffective and that people are lying and greedy and doing things for their own selves. But back in the 19th century, this happened. They were dishonest. They were just all about their own power back then. So we talked about how, you know, General Wilson, he sends back to Zachary Taylor, hey, the Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, they've been good. And so the Mormons are trying to push ahead with their own either state government or territorial government. Well, what stops that dead in its tracks? William Smith does. William Smith is going to go to Congress and present this remonstrance, is what he calls it so, or an argument against of William Smith against the admission of Deseret into the Union, December 31, 1849. And you know, it's. It's a little long, but I think I'm going to read it just because, you know, it demonstrates why there is a shift. And again, you're thinking, how does this tell me who's dead and in hell? Well, you know, I mean, you can be sitting there thinking about William Smith. Your petitioners respectfully represent that whereas efforts are now being made by the Salt Lake Mormons to obtain by false representations and fallacious pretensions from the government of the United States, a state organization to be called Deseret, and whereas we believe that it would be highly detrimental to the best interest of our country to comply with their request, we do therefore respectfully petition your honorable body to provide some other way for the government of the Salt Lake settlement. Your petitioners know most assuredly that Salt Lake Mormonism is diametrically in opposition to the pure principles of virtue, liberty, equality, and that the rulers of the Salt Lake Church are bitter and inveterate enemies to our government. They entertain treasonable designs against the liberties of American freeborn sons and daughters of freedom. They've elected Brigham Young, who's the president of their church, to be the governor of the proposed state of Deseret. Their intention is to unite church and state. And whilst the political power of the Roman pontiff is passing away, this American tyrant is endeavoring to establish a new order of political popery. And he doesn't mean like the sweet smelling stuff that you put in, like a little crock pot, you know, put some orange slices in there, some cinnamon, you know, this is not the popery he's talking about. He means, you know, the Catholic Pope. In the recesses of the mountains of America, we have authentic information that more than 1500 Salt Lake Mormons took the oath in the Temple of God at Nauvoo. This is what they claim their oath was. You do solemnly swear in the presence of Almighty God, his holy angels and these witnesses that you will avenge the blood of Joseph Smith on this nation and teach your children, and that they will from this Time henceforth and forever begin and carry out hostilities against this nation. And to keep the same intent a profound secret, it now and forever, so help you God, that. I mean, that's a little different than some of the. That they were to essentially make war on the United States.

B (61:39)

Certainly carries a ton of more weight, right? So when someone says, I'm Joseph Smith's brother and Joseph Smith never taught this, right? I mean, frankly, it's what. People who deny that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, they hang their hat on things like this. You know, Emma said that Joseph never did. William Smith said that Joseph never did, so therefore he never did. And while it's difficult to reconcile those statements, I understand why it's hard. It flies in the face of the hundreds of other documents that exist, right? So as a historian, you have to determine what most likely happened. Is it more likely that Joseph Smith taught and practiced polygamy and that the documents like William Clayton's journal that talk dozens of times about plural marriage and the marriages that Joseph is conducting and his own marriage that Joseph conducted, that that's all fraudulent and forged, that all of the statements of all of the people who practiced it and learned about Nauvoo, that those are all fraudulent and forged, and that every one of those affidavits are fraudulent and forged, or that the statements by a few people saying that Joseph never did it, that those are incorrect rather than the. And by the way, those are reminiscent statements, are they more accurate than journals that are kept at the time? And that's the reason why historians can always say, look, I get it, there's people saying he never taught it, and there's a bunch of people saying that he did. But also, here's a journal where Joseph's performing the ceremony, so probably he did, since the journal's authentic, right? But William Smith is going to carry that kind of weight. I'm Joseph Smith's brother. Now, if Latter Day Saints are well aware that William Smith was crosswise with Joseph multiple times in his life, in fact, even got in the fistfight with Joseph at one point. And you know, he was just a, he was a hot headed individual. So as they go on in this, he says their governor, Brigham Young, openly declared at various times before large congregations both in Nauvoo and at Council Bluffs, that those who went to California should toe the mark, that is, obey him, or they should be circumcised across the throat, meaning they'd have their throats cut. So as they go on in this, he says their governor, Brigham Young, openly declared at various times for large congregations both in Nauvoo and at Council Bluffs that those who went to California should toe the mark, I.e. obey him, or they should be circumcised across the throat, meaning they'd have their throats cut. He hired men to assassinate the lawful president of the church, namely William Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith, in order that he might, with greater facility, usurp the office of president of the Church. Now, of course, he provides no evidence for this, given the fact that essentially nobody follows William Smith into a paper bag. Why Brigham Young would have to have William Smith killed in order to claim that he is the leader of the church. So here's one of the most stunning things about this. William Smith is going to make the allegation that Brigham Young is currently sending assassins to kill him. Which, of course, they are really bad at their job, right? Because Brigham Young. It's one of the funniest aspects of anti Brigham Young, anti Mormonism in the early Utah period. Every single negative thing is attributed to Brigham Young. And then at the same time, he's terrible at all of it, right? Yeah, he's trying to kill everybody. He's, he's, he's, you know, he's murdering this person. He's going to send assassins to kill William Smith. Did William Smith get killed by assassins? No, but, you know, he's doing it, so he's just really bad at it. So he has, he has unlimited power in Utah. He just is incapable of wielding it in any way that benefits himself. I mean, it's one of those really odd things. In fact, you know, Brigham Young will even say, if I had half the power that in. In this, you know, territory that people claim I did, I wouldn't have all these apostates leaving the church. I mean, you'd have to demonstrate where these apostates are being murdered for the fact that they're leaving. Of course, there are individual incidents so someone might point to, like, say, the Morricites. They're an apostate group in 1860, where Morris takes a bunch of people with him up to a commune. And when people try to leave because they decide he's not, you know, the next big prophet, he tries to prevent them and then actually steals some property. And so the non Latter Day Saint justice of the Supreme Court of Utah territory at the time orders the territorial militia to go arrest Morris, and him and some of his followers fight back. So someone did it, like. Yeah, well, Brigham Young had Morris killed, except that Brigham Young wasn't the governor at the time. And the person who signed the order, John Fitch Kinney, was not a Latter Day Saint, John. So, yeah, I mean, but the most hypocritical aspect of this, and we're probably completely out of time, but the most hypocritical aspect of this is a few years after this, after Brigham Young is supposedly desperately trying to murder William Smith, guess who writes Brigham Young a letter begging to be let back into the quorum of the 12. William Smith. Now that I would say is pretty odd behavior from someone who's constantly, and I mean, I'm pretty sure, you know, Salman Rushdie isn't riding, you know, to, to, you know, Iran saying, hey guys, is there any way we can be friends? I just really want to move back there. That's what I, what I most want to do is move to Tehran. Is that fine? It demonstrates, you know, at, at minimum, what he's saying is a giant exaggeration with no evidence. But really what it demonstrates to, to this historian is that he was just lying altogether. He didn't just three years later decide that his life didn't matter. So he was going to write to Brigham Young and ask to come back. And, and look, Brigham Young is actually willing. I mean, he's willing for anyone to come back. He's just not willing for someone to come back and be placed back into the quorum of the 12. I mean, look, you saw Luke Johnson come back, but he just didn't go back into his original place in the quorum of the 12. He came back, he became a bishop, you know, faithful member of the church. But William Smith is essentially demanding that he be made the Church patriarch and that he be placed back in the quorum of the 12. And you know, Brigham Young's not in, you know, in the. Why don't you make demands on where you get to be in the church mood? You know, I mean, it's, he clearly doesn't have a truly repentant spirit. But this is also right after he's done this, which causes so many problems for the Latter Day Saints. Anyway, he goes on and says he was foiled in his various attempts to take away the life of this true and lineal successor of the presidency, who now has the privilege of informing your honorable body of the political intrigues and tyrannical designs of these wicked men. He has robbed and plundered President William Smith. Entering into his house. He even took the last of his bedding, his children's clothes, his horses, wagons, amounting to some eighteen hundred dollars worth of property. Brigham Young also swindled President William Smith out of a printing establishment, including press types, etc, real estate in the state of Ohio. He has also carried out a system of robbery and oppression towards the mother and widow of the prophet Joseph Smith. This is something, of course, that Lucy doesn't say, but hey, you know, but we'll just say that she said it. This is the character of the man who's in the political and ecclesiastical governor of the Salt Lake Colony. This is the man who stated publicly, Nauvoo, that none should. Should live to come back from California to tell any tales. We have no reference to that anywhere. It's just. He's literally just saying words here. But in a country that's so filled with anti Mormonism, you don't have to have evidence. This is the man that told his followers that they should not do military duty for the United States and afterwards sold 500 men to the United States. So now he's attacking the Mormon battalion. So you're claiming that Brigham Young told them that they couldn't serve in the military, and yet actually the only reason they served is because Brigham Young said you should serve. I mean, it's a very. He and his confederates swindled these men and their families out of their bounty money and spent it on riotous living with their harlots. Look, this is clearly demonstrably false. The cries of the widows and fatherless are ascending up to heaven day and night in consequence of the oppression of these men. The Salt Lake settlement is like Sodom and Gomorrah. Many of the inhabitants would rejoice if they could extricate themselves from their miseries, cruelties, oppression and degradation in which they are placed by the stratagems and deceit of their taskmasters. Lend. Lend your aid, O rulers of republican America. Save the helpless females of the Salt Lake territory from a life of misery, degradation, vice. Many of them have been fragrantly deceived by false pretenses of these sacerdotal hypocrites, saving the rising generation of that land from being trained up in such a sink of corruption, blasphemy and treason. This is the prayer and petition of the true and lineal presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And as in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray. William Smith and Isaac Sheen. Isaac Sheen. Only a few weeks later, Isaac Sheen will actually send a remonstrance against William Smith that William Smith is a false prophet as their little organization collapses. But this is read before the Congress. And it's not just read. The Committee on the Territories orders it to be printed, and so it gets circulated.