Standard of Truth

Episode: S5E47 – "Dead and in Hell Part 5"

Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-host: Dr. Richard Leduc
Release Date: November 13, 2025

Main Theme

This episode explores the complexities of Latter-day Saint (LDS) history focusing particularly on the origins and debates surrounding plural marriage (polygamy), the challenges inherent in teaching about it, and the difficulties faced by early Saints regarding church authority, dissent, and the formation of Utah Territory. As always, the podcast aims to provide faith-building historical context for listeners, while weaving together humor, lived faith, and contemporary application.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Missionary Training Event Recap (00:46–03:38)

• Humorous Opening: The hosts recount a recent missionary training event for the Layton Utah Mission, poking fun at fantasy football and incidental mistakes in sports references ("I said Daniel Jones was on the Giants; he’s on the Colts… I am very sorry" – Richard, 02:35).
• Missionary Engagement: Mention of podcast listeners among missionaries and wry comments about the “tight ship” run by mission leaders.

2. Prepping for the Sunday School Polygamy Lesson (03:45–06:16)

• Doctrine & Covenants 129–132: The hosts joke about the potential for “incredibly false doctrine” to be shared in Sunday school lessons as polygamy comes up in the "Come, Follow Me" curriculum ("Just because Brother so-and-so has a comment about it is not the same thing as him being right about it" – Gerrit, 04:06).
• Anticipation that most teachers may avoid discussing polygamy, but it will emerge regardless.

3. Sweetwater Rescue Fundraiser & Community Impact (06:32–15:00)

• Hug Hess Partnership: Report on a recent fundraising event at Hug Hess American Kitchen benefiting Sweetwater Rescue, an LDS charity helping members make temple trips.
• Testimony from Jordan (Hug Hess): Jordan credits the “unexplainable” increase in sales to the blessings that follow selfless service:
  • "When you put the Lord and his children first, he truly blesses you more than you give. The promise found in Malachi is true... when we dedicate ourselves… he returns far more back to us." (Jordan’s Email, read at 10:05)
• Results: Over $15,000 raised, funding 50-75 temple trips for Latter-day Saints in Kenya. Recognizes hundreds of participating listeners and the importance of dignity for beneficiaries: "It is far easier for them to accept and allow for us to do this work when… it's made up of a lot of donations from hundreds and thousands of people all around the world that love you without knowing you" (Richard, 14:56).

4. Listener Mailbag: Reflections & Humor (15:00–23:05)

• Local LDS Celebrity: Listeners share playful stories about referencing Gerrit at home and at church, with jokes about “upper church leadership” and being recognized for podcast citations.
• Testimony Strengthened: “The podcast has completely changed [my discomfort]… Questions and discomfort about Joseph Smith have been replaced by reverence and appreciation for all he did to bring us the gospel” (Listener Lance, 22:24).

Christie's Corner – Polygamy Edition (23:05–39:15)

5. Facing the Challenge of Plural Marriage

• Reluctance to Teach: Gerrit voices his apprehension at teaching this topic, noting: “As much as I want to abdicate the responsibility to talk about plural marriage, I’m going to, at least for this Christie's Corner, talk about it" (23:52).
• Historical Complexity:
  • The number of Joseph Smith’s wives is unclear; primary sources are sometimes scant, relying on later affidavits.
  • Western discomfort: “Plural marriage is such an anathema to our culture that it makes us all uneasy… That’s very natural” (Gerrit, 25:42).
• Warning Against Deception:
  • “When we are most susceptible to being deceived is when there’s anything we are passionate about that is outside the teachings of the church. …Passion can be very easily misdirected” (Gerrit, 28:23).
  • The tension between “church teachings and personal, cultural, or political beliefs” invites both internal struggle and vulnerability to misinformation.

Notable Quote:

"God doesn’t call prophets to tell you everything’s fine, the world is fine, everything you believe is fine. …They are going to teach things that don’t meet our culture, that don’t meet our beliefs in politics, that don’t meet our social beliefs, because that’s the entire point of prophets." – Gerrit (29:40)

• Early Saints' Reactions: Historic members, including Lucy Walker Kimball, experienced “shock and horror” at the revelation of plural marriage, but many ultimately described convincing spiritual witnesses that enabled their participation.
• Lucy Walker Kimball's Affidavit: Detailed reading of Kimball’s testimony that, despite her initial indignation, she prayed and “received from him a powerful and irresistible testimony of the truthfulness and divinity of plural marriage, which testimony has abided with me ever since” (firsthand account, read at 33:40).
• Limit of Criticism: Over-criticizing plural marriage eventually attacks the testimony of the very women critics claim to defend.

6. The Ongoing Debate – Why It’s So Hard to Cover (39:15–43:41)

• Passion & Exceptions: Any generalization about plural marriage is fraught—there are always exceptions; sources are vast and diverse.
  • “Almost anything I say about plural marriage, historically, there is an exception to it, and people tend to live in the exceptions rather than living in the mean” (Gerrit, 41:44).
• Historical Women’s Perspective: Some LDS women, like Helen Mar Kimball, staunchly defended polygamy and denounced critics, highlighting the varied views among those who lived it.
  • "…she argues that polygamy is a far superior marital system to monogamy… [though] that's a bit extreme. I don't have that position. And that's not the position of the podcast" (43:04).

Utah Territorial Politics & Anti-Mormonism (43:52–End)

7. “Dead and in Hell” – National and Local Opposition

• Dissent Over Statehood: The hosts discuss William Smith’s (Joseph Smith's brother) public denunciations and the ease with which non-Mormons accepted outlandish claims about the Saints due to deep-seated prejudice.
  • “[Mormons] were a pack of outlaws…driven out of two states and…not fit for self government.” (Quoting President Taylor, 56:02)
• Analogies: Gerrit likens Cold War America’s view of Russians to 19th-century America’s view of Mormons: “How much evidence would it take for the general population to believe [a Russian was a spy]? …That’s the case with anti-Mormonism in the United States” (49:17).
• Media Hostility: Newspapers amplified claims of Mormon violence and lawlessness, further influencing national opinion and federal policy. One example detailed a paper claiming that Mormons were “demons in human shape… robbing immigrants” (52:05).

8. The Path to Utah Territory & Slavery Debates

• Political Turmoil: The collapse of the Zachary Taylor plan, the rise of popular sovereignty (Stephen Douglas), and the Compromise of 1850 all set the stage for Utah’s creation as a territory—barely passing in Congress (97-86) after heated debate about slavery and “popular sovereignty.”
• Presidential Appointments: Millard Fillmore ultimately appoints Brigham Young as governor but stacks other federal positions with non-Mormon politicos—setting up conflict.

9. Teaser for Next Episode

• Discussion set up for the ramifications of these governance arrangements: “What happens when they show up… and what they hear that makes them lose their minds… we’ll talk about on our next episode” (68:53).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Listener Engagement: "Some member that you will never meet on the other side of the world will be silently thanking you… because you made it possible for them to go to the house of the Lord." (Gerrit, 14:15)
• On Leadership 'Celebrity': “I am a celebrity between the family room and the hallway.” (Gerrit, 16:09)
• On Polygamy in Sunday School: “When I talk about plural marriage and you’re super comfortable, well, then I have to start asking questions… What part of Colorado City do you live in?” (Gerrit, 36:48)
• On Historical Humor: "They gave me a gun when I turned 12… It's a rite of passage in Idaho. You can pass the sacrament and shoot things." (Gerrit & Richard, 48:15)

Useful Timestamps

• Missionary Event & Banter: 00:46–03:38
• Intro to Polygamy Discussion: 03:45–06:16
• Fundraiser Recap (Sweetwater Rescue): 06:32–15:00
• Listener Emails & Christie's Corner Setup: 15:00–23:05
• Christie's Corner – Plural Marriage Detailed Discussion: 23:05–39:15
• Recap on Challenges of the Topic: 39:15–43:41
• Historical Opposition & Mormon Statehood: 43:52–54:17
• National Politics & Utah Territorial Formation: 54:17–68:53

Overall Tone

Humorous, open, deeply faithful, and transparent about the uncertainties and discomforts of LDS history—especially around polygamy. Listeners are encouraged to approach church history with curiosity, humility, and a reliance on personal revelation.

If you are looking for a succinct, faith-affirming, and honest discussion of LDS plural marriage and the historical context of the Saints’ westward settlement, this episode is a must-listen—both for the carefully sourced historical narrative and the disarming sense of camaraderie and humor between the hosts.