Podcast Summary

Podcast: Standard of Truth
Episode: S5E48 – Dead and in Hell Part 6
Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat (C), with Dr. Richard Leduc (B)
Main Theme:
Examining the impact of church historical controversies—especially polygamy—on faith and institutional trust, with scriptural and historical context provided for Doctrine & Covenants 133 and an in-depth look at early Utah Territory’s experiences with federal officials. The hosts also respond to a heartfelt listener mailbag about navigating relationships with loved ones who have left the Church.

1. Main Themes and Episode Purpose

• Historical Understanding and Faith: The episode aims to bolster Latter-day Saints’ faith by giving accessible, historically grounded context about Joseph Smith, early Church teachings (especially controversial topics like polygamy), and the pioneering period in Utah.
• Defending Historical Facts: A significant portion is dedicated to correcting misinformation, particularly regarding Joseph Smith and polygamy, defending the approach of Latter-day Saint Church historians, and emphasizing the necessity of doctrinal alignment with church materials in teaching settings.
• Empathy and Boundaries: The mailbag feature highlights the personal difficulties that can arise when a loved one becomes critical of the Church, looking for practical and compassionate counsel.
• Scriptural Context – D&C 133: The hosts explain the placement, purpose, and content of Doctrine & Covenants 133, originally intended as the book’s appendix, as a call to action for latter-day disciples.

2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Polygamy in Church History and Teaching Authority (06:10–13:04)

• Listener Report: The hosts discuss a reported instance where a seminary teacher denied Joseph Smith’s participation in or teaching of polygamy, attributing its origins solely to Brigham Young.

• Host Frustration: Dr. Dirkmaat expresses strong frustration with Latter-day Saints who refuse to accept the Church’s current position and historical essays, especially when such views are imposed on others in formal teaching roles.

  “It’s so frustrating to me to not only reject what the Church is teaching, but to take it upon yourself that you somehow know what is right. But you know, who doesn’t? The prophet and the quorum of the 12.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (06:10)

• Dangers of Rogue Doctrine:

  • Teachers are reminded that while private beliefs vary, only officially taught doctrine should be presented to others in a Church setting.
  • Comparing rogue doctrinal innovation to apostasy, Dr. Dirkmaat warns that such attitudes (“the Church has always been wrong”) eventually lead people out of the faith.

  "The moment I start, as a teacher... that is a thing, well, that's actually false doctrine. Even if I really... believe that the Church is going to change its policy on the Word of Wisdom, I don't. But let's say I did. Until a prophet teaches it, it's not my place to teach it. And this is the road to apostasy." – Dr. Dirkmaat (08:29)

• On the Church’s Editorial Process:

  • Addressing skepticism about Gospel Topics essays and online statements, Dr. Dirkmaat emphasizes they undergo strict, multi-level church review—not the work of rogue historians.

  "When things are written about polygamy, like, every person who works for the Church will read it before it's on the website." (11:30)

B. Doctrine & Covenants 133 – Thematic Context and Study Advice (13:53–22:20)

• Why D&C 133 Is Where It Is:
  • The section is originally the appendix—meant to be the book’s concluding “so what” after reading and studying the revelations.
• Study Suggestion:
  • Dr. Dirkmaat’s pro tip: read D&C 1, then immediately D&C 133 to “bookend” the revelations.
  • Section 133 is a call to sanctify oneself, gather Zion, and prepare for the Second Coming—fulfilling all that’s prophesied in the revelations.
• Connection to Second Coming Themes:
  • Key verses are highlighted, showing the urgency of preparing for the Lord’s return and the inclusivity of the gospel’s message (“let them... flee unto Zion” – D&C 133:13).
• Litmus Test for False Doctrine:

  “If what you’re about to teach is that one of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants shouldn’t be in the Scriptures, that’s how you know you’re teaching false doctrine.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (14:21)

C. Humor & Lighthearted Segments (02:18–05:01; 22:41–24:55)

• BYU Sports Banter:

  • Richard Leduc recounts introducing a non-American colleague to BYU college football, emphasizing its “Americanness” and humorously admitting his favorite part is leaving early to beat traffic (03:25).
  • Running jokes about Dr. Leduc’s need for early bedtime and pre-bed routines (melatonin, warm milk).

• Primary Stories:

  • Classic “kids say the darndest things” moment:

    “Please bless my family that they’ll be safe and have a fun time at Lagoon.” – nine-year-old Primary student (23:26)

D. Mailbag & Difficult Family Relationships (24:55–45:28)

Notable Email from "Jess" (31:22–45:28)

• Background:

  • A young sister preparing for a mission writes in; her father left the Church and is vocal, straining family relationships and making faith difficult.

• Listener’s Question:

  • “How can we coexist and keep relationships with people like my dad, who can’t seem to leave the Church alone for more than 20 minutes?” (33:14)

• Host Responses:

  • Empathy: Acknowledges emotional toll and the courage of listeners serving missions despite family adversity.
  • Practical Boundaries: Dr. Dirkmaat gives advice on setting loving but firm boundaries and suggests an honest, heartfelt conversation expressing the need for support or, at least, restraint from antagonism.

  “I think that you’re in an okay place to set boundaries with people that you love, especially if it’s a constant barrage…” – Dr. Dirkmaat (39:35)

• Church Resource Recommendation:

  • Dr. Leduc references an October Liahona article on verbal/emotional abuse and boundary-setting (40:22).

• Encouragement and Perspective:

  • Reminds listeners that relationships can slowly improve, people sometimes return to the Church, and that faith is still worth defending even in difficult circumstances.
  • Recounts examples of people who left but remained loving and supportive, including Joseph Smith’s view on non-member friends:

    “As long as he’s a friend to me, as long as he’s capable of being a friend, he would ever as much be my friend as though he had embraced the gospel.” (43:00)

  • Concludes with affirmation that those with faith or returning faith are loved and valued, and reminds Jess her Heavenly Father loves both her and her father.

E. Utah Territorial History: Arrival of Federal Officials & Pioneer Experience (45:28–68:12)

• Historical Setting:

  • Discussion turns to the political and social tensions after the creation of Utah Territory in 1850:
    • Federal officials (most not immediately active) take their time arriving.
    • Brigham Young, as governor, is already organizing government.
    • The newly arrived officials are received with hospitality, but cultural tensions (especially over polygamy) run high.
    • Anecdote: Secretary Broughton Harris’s wife is shocked meeting multiple “Mrs. Kimballs,” prompting ongoing antagonism.

• 24th of July Pioneer Day Parade:

  • Celebration includes parades, music, banners (“Virtue dwells in Zion”), and participation from local leaders and the new officials.
  • Daniel H. Wells gives an oration recapping the violent persecutions in Missouri and Illinois, sacrificial exodus, and the journey of the saints to Utah.

  “You can’t tell the story of the pioneers coming to Utah...without talking about the violence used against the Latter-day Saints...Some of them buried people in a well at Haun’s Mill. Many buried children along the pathways of Iowa and Nebraska and Wyoming.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (57:43)

  • Wells reiterates the pain, loss, and fortitude of the Saints, including forced service in the Mormon Battalion and the duplicity of President Polk, and references the Saints’ ongoing grief and memory of loss.

• Why This Matters:

  • The difficult pioneer experiences frame both their Fourth and 24th of July commemorations as days of somber remembrance and understandable guardedness toward outsiders.

3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you want to be arrogant and also have no money, I recommend becoming a historian.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (06:59)
• “If what you’re about to teach is that one of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants shouldn’t be in the Scriptures, that’s how you know you’re teaching false doctrine.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (14:21)
• “I love you and I want to spend time with you. I don’t want to hear another negative thing about my faith coming out of your mouth ever again. If you want to have a relationship with me, then we’ll have a relationship where you don’t badmouth what I believe in.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (38:35)
• “Some of them buried people in a well in Haun’s Mill... They all still have the scars of it.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (57:43)
• “It’s hard to convince people that you’re a good person when you’re practicing polygamy.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (46:15)
• “We’ll stop doing Christie’s Corner. We’ll stop reading emails. We’ll stop having a podcast, which is what I really want anyway...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (68:02, tongue-in-cheek)

4. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:10–13:04] – In-depth discussion of polygamy, doctrinal authority, and frustration over false teachings
• [13:53–22:20] – Christie’s Corner: D&C 133 context, study strategies, and doctrinal “litmus test”
• [24:55–31:22] – Listener mailbag humor, “kids say the darndest things” and setup for the main mailbag question
• [31:22–45:28] – Main mailbag response: navigating relationships with antagonistic family members
• [45:28–56:51] – Utah Territory: arrival and reception of federal officials, cultural conflicts
• [56:51–68:12] – Wells’s 24th of July address; historical context for pioneer suffering and remembrance

5. Tone and Style

• The tone throughout is a blend of scholarly rigor, candid humor, and sincere empathy—a hallmark of the “Standard of Truth” style. Dr. Dirkmaat’s passionate, occasionally exasperated explanations are balanced by Dr. Leduc’s dry wit.
• Both hosts use storytelling, quotes from primary sources, and tongue-in-cheek asides to keep the material engaging and personable.

6. Conclusion

This episode delivers both a heartfelt defense of doctrinal fidelity regarding polygamy and other church history touchstones, and a sincere, nuanced discussion of how individuals can set boundaries with loved ones who oppose their faith. The historical deep-dive into early Utah Territory provides context for ongoing Latter-day Saint commemorations and their emotional weight. With a mix of humor, empathy, and directness, Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc invite listeners to claim their own faith-informed perspectives, better understand church history, and navigate both teaching and personal relationships with wisdom and kindness.