Standard of Truth Podcast – S5E49 "Dead and in Hell Part 7" (November 27, 2025) Hosted by Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc, both experts in Church History and Doctrine, continue their exploration of the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They focus on the struggles faced by early Latter-day Saints, especially the context and aftermath of their forced westward migration, and provide both historical analysis and faith-filled commentary on misunderstood or controversial episodes—addressing challenges around teaching church history, the implementation of polygamy, and navigating personal and familial disaffection from the faith.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter and Church Culture Observations

• The episode starts with casual chit-chat about BYU sports, American college football, and the "cultural introductions" given to international guests.
• The hosts humorously discuss the importance of beating stadium traffic and lightly mock their own excitement level for early bedtimes.
  • "[03:52] I looked at my beautiful and wonderful wife, and I had what I could only suppose was a Grinch smile that was on my face." – Richard

2. Polygamy & Teaching Doctrine in the Church

• The hosts recount stories and listener feedback regarding Sunday School lessons on polygamy. Specifically, they recount an account of a teacher who denied Joseph Smith's involvement in plural marriage (05:20–07:28).
• Dr. Dirkmaat responds forcefully to the trend of rewriting church history from the pulpit or classroom, highlighting tension between official church teaching and personal interpretation.
  • "[06:10] It's so frustrating to me to not only reject what the Church is teaching, but to take it upon yourself that you somehow know what is right. But you know, who doesn't? You know, the prophet and the quorum of the 12..." – Gerrit
• He emphasizes the risk of apostasy when individuals teach contradicting doctrines, drawing a distinction between thinking privately and teaching publicly (08:09–12:55).
  • "[12:51] That mentality is going to eventually lead you out of the church because you've already decided that you will take nothing as your evidence academically [or] spiritually..." – Gerrit

3. Doctrine and Covenants 133: Meaning and Structure

• The hosts provide a brief but insightful overview of D&C 133, positioning it as the intended "appendix" or conclusion to the Doctrine and Covenants—meant to mirror D&C 1 as a “bookend” (15:04–22:16).
  • "[15:29] ...the best way to study this would actually be to read Doctrine and Covenants section 1—and then after you finish reading section 1, immediately read section 133, because that is how the original Doctrine and Covenants had them..." – Gerrit
• The message: After learning about Christ’s revealed doctrines, the call is to sanctify oneself, gather, and prepare for His coming, echoing repeated Second Coming themes throughout scripture.

Notable Quote:

"[21:11] You now have all these doctrines taught by Christ, you now have all of this understanding, all of these things that have been restored. Now you need to endure to the end, watching for the Savior to come, because that's what we're all looking for." – Gerrit

4. Mailbag: Listener Questions and Stories

• The hosts read several listener emails, frequently with humor but also addressing deeply serious concerns.
• A listener asks about navigating a relationship with a parent who left the church and is vocally antagonistic toward it (32:53–39:46).
  • Gerrit offers heartfelt, candid advice about setting loving but firm boundaries, acknowledging the emotional complexity and pain involved:
    • "[35:32] If you want to have a relationship with me, then we'll have a relationship where you don't badmouth what I believe in..." – Gerrit
  • Richard references a recent article from the Church on emotional and verbal abuse, encouraging professional resources and boundary-setting (39:46–41:19).

Memorable Exchange:

"[36:47] …I think that you're in an okay place to set boundaries with people that you love, especially if it's a constant barrage ... if you want to be in my life, you have to stop this behavior." – Gerrit

"[41:19] ...it is a heartbreaking circumstance that a person that is supposed to love you the most ... the way they're going about it is a way that is very difficult." – Richard

• The hosts express admiration for those who, despite losing faith, still lovingly support their faithful family members, and relate a story of someone returning to church after decades of antagonism (41:19–45:00).

5. Church Government, Utah Territory, and Federal Officials

• Returning to historical themes, Dr. Dirkmaat delves into the challenges early saints faced in Utah Territory, including the difficulty of dealing with federally-appointed officials who often came with baggage or prejudice (45:24–54:00).
• The experience of Brocchus Harris’ wife, upset after meeting Heber C. Kimball’s polygamous wives, is used to illustrate the impossibility of pleasing or appeasing those who fundamentally disagreed with core LDS practices (particularly polygamy).

6. Pioneer Day (July 24th) Celebrations & Emotional Significance

• The hosts review a grand 24th of July celebration shortly after the arrival in Utah, as described in contemporary sources (54:00–68:00).
• They underline the ongoing trauma and immediacy of having been recently expelled from their homes—most in the audience at that 1851 celebration had personally suffered violence and loss related to anti-Mormon mobs.
  • "[58:30] ...every single person standing there in the Salt Lake Valley is well aware of the level of violence that was used against the Latter Day Saints..." – Gerrit
• Lengthy passages from Daniel H. Wells' speech highlight the emotional commemoration of the journey west and the deep sense of both loss and endurance the Saints felt:
  • "[67:58] ...to them it's kind of a commemoration day of all of the violence they've endured, all of the moves that they've made, all of the people that they've lost all along the way..." – Gerrit

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Boundaries with Disaffected Family:
  "If you want to have a relationship with me, then we'll have a relationship where you don't badmouth what I believe in." – Gerrit (36:47) "It is a heartbreaking circumstance that a person that is supposed to love you the most ... the way they're going about it is a way that is very difficult." – Richard (41:19)

• On Teaching Doctrine:
  "If what you're about to teach is that one of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants shouldn't be in the Scriptures. That's how you know you're teaching false doctrine." – Gerrit (14:17)

• On Historians and Arrogance:
  "That's why if you want to be arrogant and also have no money, I recommend becoming a historian..." – Gerrit (06:40)

• On Enduring Trauma:
  "They all lived it. They all still have the scars of it. They all are still mourning people they lost because of it." – Gerrit (58:30)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Polygamy & Teaching Doctrine: 05:20–13:04
• Doctrine & Covenants 133 Insights: 14:01–22:16
• Mailbag: Navigating Difficult Family Relationships: 32:53–41:19
• Support for Faithful Family Despite Loss of Own Faith: 41:19–45:00
• Early Utah Territory & Federal Appointees: 45:24–54:00
• Pioneer Day, Commemoration, and Trauma: 54:00–68:08

Tone & Style

• The discussion remains rooted in faith with a healthy dose of humor and self-deprecation.
• The hosts balance historical expertise with practical advice and personal anecdotes, often using dry and playful banter to lighten heavy themes.
• Listener emails are treated thoughtfully, and both deeply spiritual and everyday concerns are addressed with care.

Recommended Actions for Listeners

• When confronted with difficult or antagonistic relationships relating to faith, setting boundaries is appropriate and often necessary; seek professional/Church resources if needed.
• For enhanced understanding of D&C 133, read it immediately after D&C 1 to appreciate their complementary themes.
• Remember the emotional and historical weight behind LDS commemorations like Pioneer Day—acknowledge the suffering and endurance they represent.

This episode stands out for its forthright address of modern doctrinal controversy, empathy for those navigating faith crises within their families, and deep historical context regarding LDS doctrine and pioneer experience.