S5E50 Dead and NOT in Hell, Alvin Smith

Summary

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Standard of Truth – S5E50 "Dead and NOT in Hell, Alvin Smith"

Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc
Date: December 4, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the story of Joseph Smith’s brother Alvin, the question of salvation for those who die without gospel ordinances, and the development of key Latter-day Saint doctrines about the afterlife. Using the context of Doctrine and Covenants Section 137, the hosts discuss how Joseph Smith’s personal wrestle over his brother’s fate led to revelatory breakthroughs, and how faith can persist even amid theological contradictions and unanswered personal questions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sports Banter & Listener Emails (00:37–05:46)

• Lighthearted intro about college football’s playoff rankings, with humorous critique of team records/biases.
• Acknowledgment of the volume of listener emails, especially from missionaries, and playful suspicion of “in labor” emails.

2. Context: Doctrine and Covenants Sections 137 & 138 (05:46–09:02)

• Section 137 (added in 1981) records Joseph Smith’s vision of the celestial kingdom (January 1836).
• This passage is foundational for LDS understanding of postmortem salvation.
• Dr. Dirkmaat: "I love Doctrine and Covenants Section 137...this is one of my favorite, favorite examples of Joseph Smith." (05:46)

3. Alvin Smith’s Death and Joseph’s Grief (09:02–15:11)

• Alvin, Joseph’s beloved older brother, died before the Book of Mormon’s translation or the church’s organization.
• Early 19th-century medicine (bleeding, calomel/mercury) likely hastened his death, leading Joseph to distrust doctors.
• Joseph was “very troubled” by Alvin’s death and the theological implications for his soul.
• Dirkmaat: "He felt the loss of Alvin very deeply." (13:14)

4. Theological Crisis: Is Alvin in Hell? (15:11–19:57)

• At Alvin’s funeral, a local Presbyterian preacher asserted Alvin would go to hell for dying unbaptized, reflecting Calvinist predestination beliefs.
• The hosts clarify that, in Calvinism, absence of baptism was seen as evidence of being outside the elect, even if baptism itself wasn’t considered spiritually effective.

5. Doctrinal Developments—Baptism and Salvation (20:35–28:07)

• D&C 76 (1832) revealed degrees of heaven, but baptism still required for the Celestial Kingdom.

• When Joseph saw Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom in his 1836 vision, he was shocked:

  • Quote: "I marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel a second time and had not been baptized." (23:48)

• Key Insight: Joseph was faithful even without comforting personal revelation about Alvin, highlighting that prophets do not know all things ahead of time.

6. Revelation “Here a Little and There a Little” (28:07–30:12)

• Members and leaders alike must at times hold doctrinal contradictions in tension while waiting for further light.

• Baptism for the dead, revealed four years later, would resolve the issue: everyone could receive necessary ordinances after death.

• Dirkmaat: "God gives here a little and there a little...some questions that we don't have answers for, I have no doubt in the next life will be resolved in a similar way." (29:33, 29:40)

7. Faith Amid Contradiction and Waiting for Answers (30:12–37:19)

• Joseph and early Saints had to trust God’s goodness despite apparent contradictions.
• Modern parallels: Church members today sometimes face apparent contradictions or unanswered doctrinal questions.
• The process of faithful patience and seeking is compared to Abraham’s (and Adam’s) faithful obedience without knowing God’s reasons.

8. The Suffering of the Early Saints & Purpose of Life (39:04–43:26)

• Example: Amanda Barnes Smith, who lost her husband at Haun’s Mill but found peace in his dying in faith rather than apostasy.

• Dirkmaat: "That takes a kind of faith that I think is very difficult to get to. But it comes through sacrifice." (41:12)

• Suffering in this life is not always resolved here—perfect justice and compensation await in the next life.

• Christ’s words: “In the world you will have tribulation...but fear not, I have overcome the world.”

9. Listener Email: Family Lore, Baptism Records, and Faith Questions (43:41–61:42)

• Fun banter about an email from a listener “in labor,” with playful skepticism about its timing.

• Family History Inquiry: Listener asks if their ancestor, Talitha Cumi Garlick, was actually baptized by Joseph Smith (April 7, 1840).

  • Dirkmaat: There are gaps in baptism records from that period; autobiography claims Joseph baptized her after she insisted on meeting him, and Joseph did preach that day, so it’s possible but unverifiable.
  • Reveals a fascinating letter from Talitha requesting to join a plural marriage—a rare instance of a woman actively seeking plural marriage.

• Personal/Spiritual Question: How to deepen heart-felt connection to God when faith feels intellectual or distant.

  • Dirkmaat: Serving others is what helps restore connection and feel God’s love.
    • “When I have had times in my life where I have felt like God is distant...the thing that gets me close again...is trying to serve other people. And when I'm doing that service, I feel the love of God for them in the service I'm doing.” (60:03)
  • Leduc: Echoes that serving others, as in temple work, is when he feels closest to God.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Doctrinal Contradiction:
  "It's not possible that Alvin can be in the celestial kingdom without being baptized. And at the same time that baptism is a requirement...you can trust in the things that God has already revealed and patiently wait upon the Lord for further light."
  — Dr. Dirkmaat (26:14; 27:42)

• On Faith and Suffering:
  "Don’t throw away your testimony because you haven’t got an answer on a topic that you really want answered. Joseph Smith before you went a decade and a half...not knowing the ultimate end of his brother — and that’s with being the prophet, seer, and revelator of God."
  — Dr. Dirkmaat (35:48)

• On Service and Divine Connection:
  “When I have had times in my life where I have felt like God is distant...the thing that gets me close again is trying to serve other people.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat (60:03)

• On Saints’ Suffering:
  "That takes a kind of faith that I think is very difficult to get to. But it comes through sacrifice."
  — Dr. Dirkmaat (41:12)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:46 – On D&C 137 & Joseph’s vision of the celestial kingdom
• 09:02 – The death of Alvin Smith and historical context
• 13:14 – Joseph’s deep grief and mistrust of 19th-century medicine
• 15:11 – Theological crisis at Alvin’s funeral; Calvinist beliefs
• 23:48 – Joseph’s shock at seeing Alvin in the celestial kingdom
• 26:14–27:56 – Holding doctrinal contradiction in faith
• 32:43 – Canonization of D&C 137 and openness to further revelation
• 41:12 – Amanda Barnes Smith and faith amid tragedy
• 43:41 – Listener email: Talitha Cumi–family story and church records
• 60:03 – Faith and feeling God’s love through service

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Tone & Style

• Relaxed, humorous, and conversational, with deep dives into both doctrine and history.
• Honest about uncertainty, gaps in records, and faith challenges.
• Encouraging toward listeners experiencing doubt or waiting for spiritual answers.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

Foreign.

Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc. Just moments ago, as I tried to start the recording, I forgot the name of our podcast, which demonstrates the level of stress that I'm operating under as I'm trying to shoehorn this recording in just before I go to a fireside and well, let's face it, none of that really matters. It's the Big 12 championship game and that's what's on my mind. Richard, how you doing?

[B]

Good, Garrett. We opened at 13 and a half point dogs. Now we're only 12 and a half point dogs as people are hitting BYU hard and moving that line, which is very exciting as we are. We are the epitome of Oli outside looking in on the playoff right now.

[A]

Yep. Yep. It. I love how strength of schedule and strength of record matters. Unless you're not in the SEC or Big Ten, then it doesn't matter at all. It's meaningless.

[B]

Or Notre Dame like.

[A]

Well, Notre Dame. Yeah, Notre Dame.

[B]

Notre Dame's claim to fame is there two big losses.

[A]

Yeah, that's. Hey, hey, we barely lost to this person. Okay?

[B]

The team you brought this up in the, in the pre show. The biggest fraud is Texas A and M. Unbelievable.

[A]

They played nothing but terrible teams. They finally play a good team with rivalry week against Texas and they get dominated. Just. It's dominated from the beginning to the end.

[B]

Yeah, no, they did.

[A]

I think what they're saying about BYU is that you can't beat Texas Tech. You can't beat them twice. What good is to put you in the playoffs anyway? You'll just have to play up a third time and lose to him a third time.

[B]

My. One of my favorite things about all of college football is the, is the.

The idea of, well, you beat this team, you can go all the way back. Do you know what I mean?

Transference to the, to the extreme. So you have, you have. You know, Texas gets boat raced by Alabama. Alabama gets boat raced by Florida State. Florida State doesn't qualify for a bowl. Yeah, it's.

[A]

And got boat race by Florida in the year that Florida it's very.

[B]

Who also beat Texas?

[A]

Who also beat Texas. It's funny, because when you hear Texas fans talking about why Texas deserves to be in, they'll be, like, our only two losses. And they'll, you know, they'll put them up there. Are these good teams? Sure. We lost to Oklahoma. Sure. And then they'll, like, quietly say Florida because, you know, just the name Florida sounds like it's a good loss. Until they won last week against Florida State. It was a historically bad Florida team. They have not been this bad since 1979. That was the last time Florida was this bad. So it's not just another loss. It's the worst possible loss to the worst possible Florida team. The last time Florida was this bad, they were 0 and 10. That's how bad.

[B]

Right. The year I was born, Garrett.

[A]

Yeah. So that's why they went 0:10. They were so distracted, they knew that they had an Oklahoma State cowboy coming for him.

[B]

Well, go. Go, Poke. Speaking of historically bad. So now we do have. We do have an email from someone in labor or the husband of someone in labor, but before we.

[A]

Which are all just lies, I think.

[B]

No, no, they sent a picture.

[A]

The pictures are very generated. We've received probably 400 emails in the last two weeks.

[B]

Oh, yeah, More than that, I think. Actually just missionaries alone.

[A]

It is many. And we are reading them all. Once again. We read all of them.

I don't have the ability to eat, let alone respond to all of them, so thank you so much for sending them in. I'm sorry if you're someone who's, like, really hoping that we get it on the air, but the problem is everyone's dead and in hell, and until we get out of dead in hell, until we get out of Catholic purgatory, until we get prayed out of this, we're stuck.

[B]

So the hunger strike is to get Britain out of India. What's it for? What do you.

[A]

I mean, the College Football Playoff rankings. Once we get. Once we get out of Dead and Hell, we could go back to, you know, our usual, you know, topically relevant podcast.

[B]

Hey, at least this time we're talking about a football game that's in a couple of days versus in the past.

So, Garrett, quick on Christie's Corner, because just a quick highlight of one of your favorite references in all of the Doctrine and Covenants.

[A]

Yeah, I love doctrine, covenants, section 137. Now, this is something that's added to the Doctrine and covenants in 1981. Okay. So sometimes we think of the Doctrine and Covenants as being closed. And that's clearly not the case. In 1981, the Doctrine and Covenants was.

Expanded by adding Section 137 and Section 138. Section 138, of course, the revelation that Joseph F. Smith receives, Hyrum Smith's son of the.

Afterlife and the spirit world. And of a similar note is this revelation that, you know, Joseph F. Smith's uncle has Joseph Smith.

Where he sees the celestial kingdom. Now this was something that was recorded in Joseph's journal.

And so it's another one of those things that the reason why we have it is because it was recorded in Joseph's journal. But because it was recorded in Joseph's journal, it was not readily included in any books of scripture. It became known, as we came to know, Joseph Smith's journal, but it wasn't readily known outside of that. That's what I'm trying to say is that, is that it was published. Obviously it was included in the history of the church.

And to me, this is one of my favorite, favorite.

Examples of Joseph Smith. Why? Well, clearly part of this revelation.

Is focusing on what Joseph sees. Now look, if you see things in the celestial kingdom, you're going to be pretty excited, right? I mean, he sees the beauty of the gate, he sees the blazing throne of God. He sees the Father and the Son, all those things. Great. He sees the streets that appear to be paved with gold. You know, there are no cats in America and streets are filled with cheese. Yeah, yeah. Feifel Mouskowitz is there?

No, but he sees this powerful vision of the celestial kingdom. Now, of course, this is Joseph Smith.

Who'S already seen the celestial kingdom.

This is four years after the great vision, doctrine and covenant, section 76. This is January of 1836 that Joseph has this vision of the celestial kingdom. I saw Father Adam and Abraham and my father and my mother, my brother Alvin that has long since slept. Now this is sometimes troubled people because they'd be like, well, wait a minute, how did he see Joseph Smith Sr. There and Lucy Mack Smith?

Because they're not dead. Clearly he is seeing a vision of the future. He's seeing the future celestial kingdom.

And so he sees Adam and Abraham, no problem.

He sees his mom and dad, no problem. He sees Alvin.

And seeing Alvin there, I believe is a culmination.

Of more than a decades long wrestle with God.

To know what happened to his brother.

It is very clear from both what Lucy Mack Smith tells us about Joseph and Alvin's relationship, but also what Joseph tells us about his and Alvin's relationship, that Joseph absolutely loved his oldest brother.

And Alvin apparently. Again, we don't have good sources on this, but he apparently believed everything that Joseph said. When Joseph had the first vision.

And just after, only a couple of months after Joseph saw the angel.

Alvin believed that Joseph had seen that angel. But then Alvin got sick. Alvin.

Was treated by the 19th century doctors of the day. Now, in traditional medical practice back then. And every actual doctor listening to us right now will be throwing their phone across the room as if they are, Josh listening to Calvinism. But.

They believed that essentially all disease was caused by an imbalance in your bodily humor, especially your blood. This is the reason why they bled people, because they believe the reason why you were sick is, you know, the reason why you have a fever. The reason why you're hot is you have too much. What they called hypertension. Now, hypertension obviously a problem today. There's probably some of you listening right now, like, hey, hey, easy on hypertension not being a big deal. I get it. Hypertension is a big deal, but it means something different for them. What they meant by it was.

You have too much blood in your body.

And that's what's causing your fever. That's what's making you sick.

There's two things you can do. You can bleed someone to get that, you know, get this too much blood out. And also you want to make them vomit because you want to get all the nasty out. Now, look, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what happens when you puke and to be like, I don't know what that is, but that's nasty, right? So the idea is you've got some nasty in you and you've got to get it out. And so the doctor prescribes to Alvin a very common thing in the 19th century, and that is calomel.

Now, calomel sounds like it's a type of lotion you might put on, but in fact is powdered mercury.

Now, I don't know much about science book, I don't know much about the French I took, but I also, what I do know is that mercury is a poison.

And it's stunning that what they prescribed to people was poison. And in fact, it makes Joseph Smith feel very mistrustful of the medical community for the remainder of his life. He'll reference Alvin being given so much mercury that it killed him. Just lumps of calomel.

So.

It really bothers Joseph.

And he felt the loss of Alvin very deeply.

So now you're Joseph Smith.

You are told the plates exist, your brother tragically dies right after that, you aren't able to get them. I mean, think about that. Your brother leaves the world with you still not able to get the plates because you tried to steal them when you first went to get them, which if anyone else is playing along at home. This is what not to do when God commands you to go do something. Especially when the angel says, hey, Joseph, hey, hey. You're, like going to want to steal these plates because your family's super poor and it's going to be super tempting because it's gold, but you need to not try to steal the plates. You got it? I got it. I'm not going to try to steal the plates. And then as he goes up to get the plates, I got to steal those. I mean, that was the first reaction. Look, Joseph has to grow and become who he is. So he didn't even have the plates yet. But Alvin died telling Joseph that he needed to do what the angel has said and get the record.

So Alvin was certainly someone who was already following Joseph as Joseph received revelations from God. But Joseph will learn from that Book of Mormon and he'll learn from the other revelations that baptism is essential in order to go to heaven. Now, this is a very touchy subject with, with Alvin. Why? Well, we're told, William Smith tells us that the preacher who preaches at Alvin's funeral decides that that's, you know, the best way to help a grieving family is to tell the Smiths that Alvin is burning in hell.

Why? Well, because Alvin had never been baptized. Now you might think, well, why in the world is a Presbyterian preacher.

Telling somebody that someone's going to burn in hell because they've never been baptized?

Presbyterians don't believe baptism is essential for salvation, Especially in Joseph's time. Presbyterians believed that salvation was based upon God predestined to give you the gift of faith, which gave you grace, which saved you from your sins, and that was nothing of yourself. So why is this preacher saying that Alvin is not going to heaven because he was never baptized? Because Presbyterians and other Calvinists, while they didn't believe baptism played any role in your salvation, they also believed the lack of baptism was a pretty good indicator that you must not have been given saving faith.

If God had given you the grace necessary to save you and you are an adult like Alvin was, because Alvin was even engaged.

And you never chose to get baptized, well, then you must not have ever been chosen by God to be saved. I mean, think about it. From reverse. Oh, yeah. God's given me the gift of faith. God's giving me saving grace. God has given me what it takes to go to heaven. I just won't get baptized, even though I've had the ability to do it for a decade. No. Believers get baptized. That's what they do. And so that minister probably taking a shot at the fact that a bunch of the Smith family hadn't joined the Presbyterian Church the same way that Lucy had.

Is is letting them know, hey, Alvin's probably not one of the elect that was chosen to be saved. If he was, he would have felt compelled to be baptized.

Baptism doesn't save him. But the fact that he never felt compelled to be baptized.

Probably demonstrates he wasn't actually saved. And look, almost no one's saved, but he's one of the ones that's also not saved.

Again, that's probably not what a grieving family wants to hear at a funeral service. I don't know if you've ever conducted one. Generally, you don't want to get up and give the life sketch and say, there's nothing good to say. I'm glad he's dead and probably burning in hell. Speaking of dead and in hell.

[B]

So have you ever, by the way, when you were a missionary, did you ever. I had to conduct a funeral service once as a missionary. Did you ever have to do that?

[A]

I never did. Uh, I was asked to speak at one, but I was never conducting it. No.

[B]

Yeah. So this one we were asked to conduct. The bishop was out of town. They asked us to do it. We didn't know who the person was. They had me and my companion sing I'm a Child of God. I can't sing. The family wasn't LDS for the most part. It was at a funeral home. It was very, very, very odd. It went about as well as you could imagine that that would have gone.

[A]

So it was worse than 12 1/2 points against Texas Tech.

[B]

They opened at 13 1/2. We're moving in the right direction, so.

[A]

Hopefully that means the Gamblers are putting big money on that, and they've got some of the refs.

[B]

Garrett. That's exactly what that means. So do I think BYU is going to win? No, but good teams win, and great teams cover. Ultimately, Garrett and I think we cover well.

[A]

I. My hope is that the Gamblers have gotten to the referees and they make it possible for us to win. That's my hope.

[B]

By the way, I got to say, it's great to have Kalani Sataki as The head coach of the BYU Cougars. The funniest thing I saw this week as Penn State tried to take him away was sending crumble cookies to the athletic director's office at Penn State. That's hilarious.

[A]

Do you think Penn State knows what that means? Did someone have to explain that to them?

[B]

I don't know. First of all, shout out to Crumble, unofficial sponsor of this podcast.

[A]

Well, look, they would never sponsor us because they're a real company and their food is great.

[B]

Yeah, it's great enough that we can, you know, get off the sidelines, get in the game, and help keep Kalani Sataki. But we do have that was. I do love that, that story. For what it's worth. It's one of my absolute favorites. We do have a labor alert email.

[A]

Oh, you weren't done. No, I cut you off. Wait, man. Okay, I'm waxing poetic here.

[B]

Speaking of dead and in hell. Sorry I cut you off. Go ahead.

[A]

Yeah, no, I, I'm the one who did that. I, I, I, I, I made it seem like this is what happens when you don't actually plan. I mean, obviously, I've done a ton of research, but Richard and I sit down, we're like, hey, how are you doing? Good. How you doing? Hit record. Okay, here we go. I've got to go to a fireside. Like, 20 minutes. I'm gonna show up late, and I'm just gonna put the, Put this podcast on a loop and be like, see if you get anything from this.

Anyway, the, the point I was trying to make.

Is that Joseph.

Is very troubled by this from the very beginning.

That people are saying that Alvin's going to hell.

Now, when Joseph receives.

Doctrine, covenant, section 76.

I don't know that. I mean, it probably eliminated some of his trouble, right? Because it's in Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76, that Joseph learns, if he didn't already know, that eternal hellfire doesn't actually exist, that nobody's going to burn forever. Certainly not Alvin. But at the same time, Joseph learns.

That if you aren't baptized into the Church of the Firstborn.

That you cannot go to the celestial kingdom. I mean, we all know this, right? Because we've all had dozens of lessons on Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76. And the way that every single one of those lessons has ever gone in my entire life is someone drawing a sun and then someone drawing a moon, and then someone drawing a star, drawing a line underneath them and starting to list off what it takes to get into each kingdom or some variant of that. I Mean, what about for you, Richard? Is that basically.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[A]

This is what you need to go to the Celestial Kingdom. This is the people who go to the terrestrial kingdom, right? I mean, because we're just listing off the requirements and it's very clear. Doctrine And Covenant Section 76 says that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. So DNC 76 in 1832 probably assuaged Joseph's pain a certain degree because Alvin certainly was not in hell, even though he'd never been baptized. But he must be kept out of the Celestial Kingdom because he was never baptized by proper authority. The Book of Mormon says you have to be baptized. The. The Revelation Doctrine Covenant Section 76 says you have to be baptized.

And so that means if you were to ask Joseph Smith In 1833 or 1834 or 1835, imagine a conversation. There is no reference to this. But just imagine that Lucy Mack, his mother, has a conversation with Joseph and says, Joseph, where do you think Alvin is going to go? Because he died before he could get baptized.

And Joseph apparently would have quoted Doctrine and Covenant Section 76 to her and said, well, he can't go to the Celestial Kingdom because you have to be baptized to go there. How do we know that that's what Joseph thought all the way up until early 1836? Because when he sees Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom, his response is.

I marvel how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing as he had departed this life before the Lord, had set his hand to gather Israel a second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins. Joseph, the way Joseph describes his own reaction is he is stunned.

There's a couple of reasons why I love this.

It demonstrates first and foremost.

That Joseph Smith continued to believe and be faithful.

Even though the gospel that he was receiving, the revelations he was giving were not giving him personal comfort as to his own departed brother. In fact, it was the exact. Again, I'm sure there was some comfort. Well, he's not burning in hell. But Joseph clearly believed that there was no way for Alvin to go to the Celestial kingdom. Now, again, for a Latter Day Saint today, very simple. There's like, well, of course, of course he could. Everyone knows that. I mean, yeah, everyone knows that because of this revelation and other revelations, we take for granted. The knowledge that we have that is almost second nature to us.

And the fact that we take it for granted causes us sometimes to take the gospel for granted.

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me. Saying, all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God.

Now, God does not describe.

How that's possible.

So in 1836, this is what Joseph Smith and every member of the Church is expected to believe, that you absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom, because a revelation from God says that. And also, you absolutely don't have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. If you die without the knowledge of the gospel because a revelation from God says that.

And it appears to be a contradiction, it appears that both of those things can't be true. It's not possible that Alvin can be in the celestial kingdom without being baptized. And at the same time that baptism is a requirement. You're having a conversation with a Mormon in 1836. You Mormons believe that everyone has to be baptized to go to your celestial kingdom? Yes, yes, we believe that. Well, what if, like, someone dies without hearing it? Well, we believe they can go too. Wait, so baptism isn't essential? I mean, no, it is. It's just. It's essential some of the time. Well, so baptism isn't essential? No, it is. It's just. It's not a lot of the time. Well, most of the time it's not, but it's also is. I mean, think about the theological contradiction that that is, and Doctrine and Covenant Section 137 does not explain it. We have people listening right now who believe they see doctrinal contradictions in things the Church has taught. Well, it doesn't make sense how X can be true and Y can be true.

And you have two ways to go. When you see a contradiction in church theology.

You can trust in the things that God has already revealed.

And patiently wait upon the Lord for further light to be given to his prophets.

Or you can say, if I don't have my answer resolved immediately, my problem resolved immediately, I'm going to stop believing.

And Joseph.

Takes the contradiction in stride in some way. You absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. And also, apparently, you don't have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom.

Four years later, God is going to reveal to Joseph Smith the doctrine of baptism for the dead. And only then. Only then.

Is what was an apparent contradiction demonstrated to not be a contradiction at all. Everyone who goes to the celestial kingdom will be baptized.

In this life or the next. It is the same for everyone. It's just that those who didn't have an opportunity to be baptized will eventually receive the opportunity to be baptized.

So I hope what you take away from Doctrine and Covenant Section 137 is first, Joseph doesn't know everything. Joseph only knows whatever God has revealed to him. But you can't expect a prophet to know things before he knows them. That's not fair. It's not fair to expect a prophet to know things that you know now because they were revealed 30 years after a prophet lived.

God gives here a little and there a little second.

It's important to know.

That some questions that we don't have answers for, I have no doubt in the next life will be resolved in a similar way where we just didn't have the full picture. And if we had, it wouldn't seem like a contradiction. It would make perfect sense, the same way that baptisms for the dead makes perfect sense now.

But you had to have the doctrine in order to have the sense.

[B]

So I wonder because, I mean, in Christianity we often talk about some of the apparent contradictions that exist. I mean, the Trinity within mainstream Christianity is a perfect example of that. Was that something that was. I mean, that people talked about at the time, that apparent contradiction? I mean, heathen nations being redeemed and DNC 76. And I mean, was that something that. Or it's. Or like. Because sometimes people just accept some of these apparent contradictions because it happens all the time in, in other parts of different parts of religion.

[A]

Yeah. We don't have record of individuals struggling with that contradiction. Right. So we know that it exists, but we don't have a record of individuals struggling with that contradiction. In part. I don't know how widely spread Joseph shared this vision because this is a personal thing that happens with him in the temple, and he has it recorded in his journal, but he isn't publishing his journal. Right. So I don't know how widespread that knowledge is. But at least for Joseph himself, he has to believe a contradiction. He has to believe that baptism is essential for the celestial kingdom, except when it's not. And apparently that's most of the time.

[B]

But then this is something that's more widely discussed and spread prior to 1981, I would imagine.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Joseph's revelation gets published in Joseph Smith's history. Right. So his journals get published, it gets quoted from. So this experience becomes widely known. And that's part of the reason why I think the decision was made to canonize it. I mean, this is some of the most beautiful doctrine that's ever existed, no question. And, and it's included in the 1981 expansion of the Doctrine and Covenants. And so, you know, people sometimes ask, you know, do you think other sections will be out of the Doctrine Covenants? Man, I hope so. I'm all over that. I'm like the exact. I'm like the opposite of a Protestant. I, I am not like a Bible. A Bible. There could be any more Bible. I'm like, I got all kinds of Joseph Smith teachings we could throw in here. I got tons of Revelations. We got, we got all kinds of stuff that I would love to see Scripture. So that's probably why I'll never be on the scripture committee. Right. Does anyone have a proposal? It's like, this is 10,000 pages. I know. This is all amazing.

[B]

If you were on the committee, you'd just be like a third base coach. Just waving everything in.

[A]

Yeah, everything. A guy hits a grounder to second and I'm waving him from first to second. I mean, that's what I'm doing. I'm like, keep going, keep going.

That's out on the way to first, and I'm telling him to keep going.

[B]

For what it's worth, we've. We've had many, many episodes on Dead and in Hell. I think it's nice that this is call it dead and not in Hell.

[A]

I think that that's dead and Alvin not in hell. Yeah. I mean, which Joes have already learned from DC 76. But you can tell. Yeah. I marveled how he could have an inheritance in that kingdom. So if you ask Joseph, is Alvin going to the celestial kingdom? Joseph would say, no, he's going to the terrestrial kingdom because you have to be baptized. And Joseph isn't just being his own private Presbyterian there. God is the one who told him that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. So, I mean, Brigham Young is great at teaching that God gives us revelation here a little and there a little. And you might wonder, why didn't God just give Joseph the answer from the beginning? Why didn't he just have the angel Moroni the fifth time he came to tell Joseph to stop trying to steal the plates? Why didn't he just have him tell him.

Hey, don't worry about Alvin. He's going to be fine. He's going to be fine.

And I don't know. I don't know why God does the things he does. But I will say this.

I believe that part of what made Joseph who Joseph was is that he deeply cared about questions of the resurrection and the afterlife. And so he was Constantly asking God about it. And for all I know, had God revealed to Joseph Smith in 1828. Don't worry, Alvin's fine. Joseph wouldn't have been asking the same questions that led to the great revelations he received. And I think that's applicable to all of us. I know there are some of you who are begging God to give you the answer to the question you want answered. And it may not come in this life.

I know it's frustrating.

Look, imagine how frustrating it is for me when it's literally my job and I can't find an answer. I mean, it makes me into a failure that I can't find an answer.

But I think that's where we need to trust that eventually we will. We'll know the truth of all things.

So don't throw away your testimony because you haven't got an answer on a topic that you really want answered.

Joseph Smith before you went a decade and a half more than that. Not knowing the ultimate end of his brother. And that's with being the prophet, seer and revelator of God.

There are some things we won't have answered till after this life.

So we need to focus on the things we do know.

And the things the Holy Spirit has revealed to us through revelation.

And trust that God as our loving Father is going to do what's actually best for us.

Anyway. Well, that was way too long, Richard. This was the wrong thing to have in Christie's corner.

[B]

Well, no, I think it's just made an evolution of what the episode is. I have to say, I also love those verses in that section for that reason. And it's a beautiful sentiment, the idea that. And even if Moroni did say Hiram's okay, how could he even comprehend what that would mean?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

There was no way to. And there's something about.

There's something about Abraham and Isaac and your willingness to move forward in faith on things, even when you don't know. I think we're all asked to do that. That's the main purpose of all of this.

[A]

Yeah. And I know that's really hard. What's really hard is to just trust that God has our best interests because we want answers, especially in the day and age we live in now. Well, I'm just going to ask ChatGPT that and I'm going to figure out what the answer is. And I better have an answer. And I'm. We don't. We honestly see it as part of our individual liberty that we won't do anything unless we're told exactly why we're doing it. And what's interesting is the great prophets from history.

They don't get an explanation.

You know, why is Adam offering sacrifices?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know how long Adam was offering sacrifices and he was doing it ignorantly.

And he didn't. He didn't stop doing it. Well, this doesn't even make sense. I'm not even going to do it. If you're not going to explain to me why I'm doing it, I'm just not going to do it.

And you just see this over and over and over again.

That part of the way that God refines us, part of the way that he takes the lump of clay that is me and starts to make it resemble some type of a potsherd, is.

By requiring me to follow in faith rather than telling me exactly why I'm being told to do the things I'm going to do. And that's really hard. And yet it's what he asked of Abraham, right?

He doesn't know why he's supposed to sacrifice Isaac. No explanation. Would have been a lot easier. I mean, what if God would have said, you need to take and sacrifice Isaac, but don't worry, I've already got a ram trapped in a thicket up there. When you go to actually complete the sacrifice, I'm going to have an angel come and stop you. It's going to be quite performative, actually. I need you to act as if you were going to complete the sacrifice. But don't worry, you're not actually going to do the sacrifice.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Well, that's not the same kind of test, is it?

And, you know, I think Joseph.

Had to learn similar things through his early struggles and. And all the members of the church did. I mean, we've talked about Amanda Barnes Smith dozens of times on this podcast. Here is someone who has essentially everything taken from her because she follows a prophet. And if you want a powerful testimony, you read her testimony about her husband that was murdered by these Missouri murderers by the state militia of Missouri. I felt the loss of my husband, but not as I would have felt if he would have apostatized because he died in the hopes of a glorious resurrection. Now, that is a woman with faith.

Where she is obviously destroyed and distraught over the fact her husband was murdered and her son was murdered.

But she believes so much in the gospel and she believes so much in the resurrection.

That if she had to choose between her husband apostatizing like so many other people around them were, or him being murdered, she was happy that he at least died in the faith.

Now that takes a kind of faith that I think is very difficult to get to. But it comes through sacrifice. It comes in giving away our own will and trusting in whatever God wants to do for us and.

Accepting what is very difficult to accept. When the Lord says in the world you will have tribulations.

Boy, that is really hard to accept. Everyone wants to find a way to avoid the horrors of this life. And we can mitigate them sometimes by following the Gospel, but in other times there's no mitigation at all. In Amanda Smith's case, her husband and son are murdered at Hans Mill literally because she's following the prophet and moving to Missouri because a revelation commanded them to move to Missouri.

So I hope everyone listening that is struggling, whether it's with knowledge that you don't have, whether it's with unfair things that have happened to you. I hope when you read doctrine covenant, section 137 that it re energizes your faith.

This is the Lord's church.

Everything is going to eventually be made right.

And that's really hard when you're suffering, because when I'm suffering, I want it fixed right now.

But we have a long history of believers who came before us, whose suffering never ended in this life, whose accounts were never balanced with the wicked being punished and the righteous getting away with, with, with all that was stolen from them.

That's why we have to look to the next life. Because.

After the Lord tells them, in the world you will have tribulation. He then says, fear not, I have overcome the world.

This life is not about this life. This life is about the next life. And that, that's what we have to keep coming back to. Understanding the purpose of this life and why God has us here now. We had an email we probably should cover, right Richard?

[B]

We do. We do. We do. We have an email we should cover. This comes to us from.

Nathan and Holly.

Boomer sooner. Hope the standard of truth be in labor and will read your email guarantee is still in effect. By the way, I did validate the picture that they sent. The email was sent to us after midnight on 2nd December. The picture was taken at 11:20 on 1st December.

[A]

Well, that invalidates it. Hey, if we're not going to actually email the picture at the time, well, I mean, what are we even talking about here?

[B]

So, so the thing I'm saying is evidence.

[A]

Pictures of their 7 year old kids saying, hey, yeah, I had, I wrote this email while I was in Labor.

[B]

That's a great point. Well, so I think that the email. No, you're right. You're right. The picture. The picture was. Yeah, it invalidates the whole thing. The whole thing's a lie.

[A]

I feel like on a technical.

[B]

Pulled up here.

[A]

Yeah. On a technicality. We should. We should toss this to the side. But.

[B]

Okay, well, so in fairness to Holly, it's Nathan's fault, right. Because she's like. She's in the, you know, breathe, push. And she's like, nathan, I need you to send this now. And he's, you know, he's, you know.

[A]

Well, he was probably watching some sporting event at midnight. Yeah, PAC 12 After Dark.

[B]

First of all, he's watching SEC Action because, you know, boomer sooner.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

All right, so we'll read it and you make the decision whether you want to answer it or not. Because you're right. We're under no obligation.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like we have been playing fast and loose with this for a long time. And it. And, you know, trust a sooner to try to get one over on us. I mean, that's where you get your name, Right? Go into the land rush beforehand. Being a sooner.

[B]

Yeah, you know what? That's right. Go pokes Garrett. So my superfan wife is literally in labor. This message is from both of us. She approved this. I'm typing fast. I mean, he's typing as fast as he can.

[A]

Okay. Okay. That's what he says.

[B]

First, my wife would like to correct genreth dickmeat on the key point. Childbirth doesn't have to be miserable. She loves having babies. This is coming from Nathan the short. Yeah, the short livers.

[A]

I'm pretty sure Nathan wrote all of this.

Day later.

[B]

Dictating short ones can be incredibly intense and risk laden. She would know. She's had for almost everyone. Lasting about an hour. That's incredible. Lasting about an hour. My gosh, there's a lot of jealous women.

[A]

I think. Andrew Shorter. 20 hours.

[B]

I think Becky's still in labor with Lily, and she's 13.

Anyway, we're big fans of the podcast and of both of you as hosts. The banter, the surprisingly good gambling tips, and the history meets faith angle. Fantastic. Fun fact. I'm also a management PhD professor. Now, Garrett, I don't know how familiar you are with the hierarchy in the business world from an academics perspective. Within history, I imagine. Is there some sort of hierarchy within the industry, within the history department in terms of this type of history is more valuable or more.

[A]

It depends on where you're At. Because different colleges specialize in different types of history. Right. So if you are at a university that is specialized in say World War II history, well then you'll have two or three professors that do World War II history. And then like the guy who does like ancient China, he's like sitting by himself, you know, in the cafeteria, like, hey, why don't you tell us more about the Tang dynasty? Yeah, I don't know if there's that kind of razzing going on. But, but in general.

Not really. I mean there, there are different. History is so specialized by time period that usually it only really happens when a university specializes in a particular type of history.

[B]

So I'm being overly simplistic, as I always am. But within business though, things are a little bit different. So there are certain disciplines where.

There'S more theory and because there's more theory, there's more general prestige in that. So economics, finance, strategic management, these are the higher tiered.

In that space. Entrepreneurship, marketing, where I am. I'm the Yang dinosaur in the cafeteria. Yeah, yeah. So. So that he's in the management. I mean, he's, he's, he's, he's. That's, that's a flex. That's.

[A]

Well, he went to Oklahoma instead of Oklahoma State. Oh.

[B]

He wants to collaborate. I, I would love to. You know, I. Nothing I could actually offer another fun fact. I somehow get the premium content without ever having subscribed. Well, this guy's, he's, he's clicking on all cylinders.

[A]

He's. He's stolen our content.

[B]

Well, whatever it is.

Whatever, whatever the reason is harder his shoes. He somehow gets it on Spotify or wherever on the Apple's podcast.

[A]

Whatever this goes. When, when this podcast goes off the air, Nathan, it's, it's on you. When I can no longer pay the bills to put it up, it's on you.

[B]

I wish we had an epic history question for you, but we'll settle for a family history one. He does have an additional point here, but fully aware that Genrith might go full dream crusher mode. Holly has an ancestor named Talitha Cumi Garlic or Aho if it's Spanish. I don't know. I think, I think Aho is garlic in Spanish. It's a town, actually. In your son's mission, I believe. Oh, Ajo, Arizona. Oh, okay. Whose family had a miraculous conversion story. She supposedly refused baptism until she had met the prophet and after she met him was baptized, possibly by Joseph Smith himself. Are you aware of any primary sources confirming or denying her baptism? By Joseph. If not, no worries at all.

[A]

Well, good question. Is that the end of the email?

[B]

No, there is a little bit more.

Is that not an easy answer?

[A]

I mean, it's so.

[B]

Because the conclusion I think is going to be more faith filled on your part. And so I wanted to break it up.

[A]

So you're worried that I might crush them?

[B]

Well, you're going to crush them, but you're going to come in strong at the end. And so that's why I divided it up the way I did.

[A]

Well, so.

You know what's interesting? When it comes to individual baptism records, we just don't have very good ones from the Joseph Smith era. They don't keep records, membership records, the same way they do today. And so to point that out is to say it would actually be pretty rare if you had a Joseph Smith source in which Joseph Smith said, you know, today I went and baptized Bill. You know what I mean? Like, I missed.

Re baptized. Oh, okay. And, and the other thing is this time period that she's saying April 7th. Oh, well, I'm kind of giving away the lead. Her ancestor was. All right, I'm already looking at some sources. Her ancestor was baptized in April 7, 1840. That's actually dead center in the middle of when we have a break in Joseph's journals. So Joseph's journals go from 1832 to 1839, and then Joseph gets thrown in prison. No, I mean, that's part of that. And he doesn't really take up a daily journal with a scribe until 1841. So a lot of the things that happen in 1840, you're not going to get the same kind of daily entries of Joseph did this and then Joseph did that. Now her other ancestor I know is interacting with Joseph Smith because in January, you know, he's signing multiple promissory notes. You know, David Garlick is signing multiple promissory notes. That's the father of Talitha in 1840.

But we don't have a Joseph Smith document where Joseph Smith says, oh yeah, on April 7th, I went and baptized.

I went and baptized her. Now, Joseph does give a sermon.

In.

On April 7th of 1840, which makes it much more probable that that could be the case because often baptisms take place after public sermons. And.

Where this is coming from is that her ancestor gives an autobiography, and.

That autobiography is typescript. I don't know how to verify it. I don't have an original copy of it, but this is what it says in the autobiography. She says, brother Joseph Smith, the prophet had gone to the city of Washington, delay the grievances of the gospel before the President of the United States. We did not see him or hear him preach until he got back. I said I would not get baptized until I saw the prophet and heard him preach. I kept my word. I was baptized on April 7, 1840, in the Mississippi river by Joseph Smith, the prophet. Well, it, you know, just so happens that that is the same day that Joseph does come back. It will not that he comes back, but what that he preaches. So those things certainly could fit together. There's no way for me to prove definitively, oh, yes, this is exactly that. That's exactly what happened. But at least in her autobiography, she provides a specific date, and Joseph does preach on that date. And so very possibly, but without a daily journal, it becomes much more difficult to know. Now, I will tell you this, though. Your ancestor does have a really interesting letter that's in the church archives. And so she gets married to a guy by the name of William Avery. Well, Avery dies. I mean, just almost. I mean, like a year and a half after they get married. So she's a widow. And she. Even though she's super young, she's a very young widow. I think her husband's like 21 when he dies, you know, or, you know, in 19th century terms, an old man.

And so they. They come to. They come to Utah, and she actually will write a letter to Apostle George A. Smith asking for permission to be married as a plural wife to another, to. To a man who already has two wives. So this is the letter. Now, for those of you who are from Springville, it's written from Springville, Utah. Honorable sir, it is with peculiar feeling that I take my pen in hand to write a few lines to you. And on a subject that has been on my mind for some time, I have lived as a widow six years and a half and have never saw a man till of late that I thought I could ever spend my time with and be happy. Boy, ain't that the truth. I couldn't find a man that I'd spent time with to be happy.

There is a man in this place that is.

My choice, and he is willing to stand proxy for my husband. If it suits your mind, his name is Elam Chauncey or Cheney. Sorry, Cheney boy. Look, I'm reading the cursive here, and there's not a typescript and there's a big fold there. And also, I don't have the ability to read.

Elam Chaney. He has got two women, I believe, he is a good man. If you have no objections to what I have spoke of, please give me an answer and oblige me.

And there she signs it, Talitha Avery, because that's her married name. So honestly, it's very fascinating. You have an ancestor that's one of these people who really kind of bucks the trend of what people think is going on with plural marriages.

She is actually asking for permission to join a plural marriage and she seems to know exactly what she's doing and she does actually mary him. So I thought that was a. A pretty cool fact to share, at least, you know, since I can't tell you whether or not I can verify that Joseph baptized her, there's no reason to think that she's not telling the truth about that in her autobiography, and there's no reason to say that it's wrong. And then also on top of that, you have this really cool, faithful letter that she sends to an apostle talking about her later.

Her later decision to join in the practice of plural marriage. So, Richard, what's the good part? The final part of the email?

[B]

Yeah, well, so the final part is actually on a personal note. He talks about a kind of a wrestle that he has with faith and trying to find God more in his life and concludes the email. But the head to heart connection I deeply want still feels out of reach. I know this may be outside of your usual wheelhouse. My doubts aren't historical this time, but perhaps something from church history, a story about someone who is struggling similarly, or even something from your own lives can help me understand how to build a deeper and more enduring connection with God. And I feel like the email is. I feel we all. I mean, I certainly felt that from time to time in different phases of my life, closer to and further away, feeling that connection and not. Anyway, I thought that the last part of that email was especially profound and a beautiful sentiment. The desire to have that feeling.

[A]

Yeah. And.

I think everyone feels that at times closer to God or further away from God. And that is a very difficult experience. It's difficult to know.

To have the knowledge of these things, but also to sometimes feel like God is distant.

What I'm going to say is not definitive. Remember, I have no keys, I barely have a podcast, and I'm not a very good one at that. And I just tried to throw your question off the air because of a technicality. Really, you shouldn't even be asking me anything at this point. But.

This is going to sound corny, so I don't, I don't mean it to be. And I don't know another way to say it.

When I have had times in my life where I have felt like God is distant and that maybe my prayers.

Are not a top priority.

The thing that gets me close again.

And I don't want this to sound self aggrandizing or trite, but for me, the thing that makes me feel close again is trying to serve other people. And when I'm doing that service.

I feel the love of God for them in the service I'm doing.

And that.

Helps me feel that connection. Now, obviously I don't do it enough. I mean, I don't have the right answers.

But at least in my life, when I feel like things are distant, if I deliberately go out of my way to try to go serve some of my fellow brothers and sisters.

I start to feel that spark again.

But that's just in my life.

[B]

I will say, Garrett, for what it's worth, as slathered in cheese as you may feel, that was. That was my exact thought. The times that I feel the closest aren't. I mean, not that scripture study isn't important in gospel studies, of course it is. But for me it's the same. Part of the reason I feel like we feel that way in the temple is because it's the combination of that study and the service on behalf of other people that can't do it for themselves. But it's the exact same for me. That's when I feel the closest to the Savior, when I'm once a year when I do something nice for somebody else.

[A]

Well, hopefully that helped. Answer I'm sorry we didn't get to Dead and in hell part eight or whatever we're at right now.

[B]

I think we're eight. Yeah.

[A]

Instead we just talked about doctrine covenant, section 137. But I do love that doctrine. I love that email. All joking aside, if you are suffering, if you are struggling, please, please, please don't give up. Please believe that your Savior loves you and that he already suffered all these things for you.

So please take time to focus that you are a child of God, your Heavenly Father loves you, and this is God's kingdom on earth. Thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.