S5E51 Dead and in Hell Part 8 (and Official Declaration 1)

Summary

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Standard of Truth | S5E51: "Dead and in Hell Part 8 (and Official Declaration 1)"

Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Guest: Dr. Richard Leduc

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Standard of Truth continues the multi-part series "Dead and in Hell" (part 8), exploring the aftermath and controversies following early Latter-day Saint history, particularly focusing on the origins, secrecy, and eventual cessation of plural marriage (polygamy). The hosts also answer a detailed listener question about Emma Smith, Joseph Smith III, plural marriage, and Official Declaration 1, offering historical context drawn from primary sources and humor characteristic of the show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humor and Holiday Tangents (00:37–10:11)

• The episode kicks off with the hosts’ signature banter, focused on holiday traditions, giving out treats (specifically Yoohoo and odd candies) to delivery drivers, and sports betting jokes.
• They joke about whether anyone will ever take the offered Yoohoo, analogizing the situation to setting sports betting odds.

2. Christy's Corner: Listener Question on Plural Marriage and Official Declaration 1 (10:15–46:40)

Context and Listener Email (10:15–12:54)

• Listener "Adam" asks about Emma Smith's and Joseph Smith III's denials regarding Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, questioning the extent of their knowledge and whether other close family members were aware.
• Sets up a segue to discuss Official Declaration 1 and its historical context.

Secret Practice and Denial of Polygamy (12:54–18:09)

• Joseph Smith III was a child (younger than 12) at Joseph’s death; likely unaware due to the clandestine nature of plural marriage in Nauvoo.
  • Quote (13:38): “Do 10 and 11 year olds…are they savvy enough to understand the things going on around them? Probably not, right?” — Dr. Dirkmaat
• William Smith (Joseph’s brother) later claimed Brigham Young invented polygamy, but contemporary evidence shows William himself practiced and entered into plural marriages in 1845.
  • Quote (17:14): “Claiming that plural marriage was never taught is a pretty hard argument to make when you were practicing it.” — Dr. Dirkmaat

Family Testimonies and Evolving Stance (18:09–37:15)

• Emma Smith: Publicly denied Joseph’s participation; however, insider eyewitness reports indicate she knew and even participated in plural marriages.
• Joseph Smith III & Denial:
  • Grew up believing polygamy was a grave sin—filtered all evidence through this lens, even as overwhelming evidence surfaced about his father’s involvement.
    • Quote (26:56): “Even if my father did teach and practice polygamy, if he did, then it was a sin.” — Dr. Dirkmaat summarizing Joseph Smith III
• Historiographical insight: Many break-off groups or rivals of Brigham Young were forced either to claim Joseph never practiced polygamy or, like Sidney Rigdon, that he did and this proved his apostasy.

Sources and Admissions from RLDS/CoC (30:11–37:15)

• RLDS (now Community of Christ) leaders like Zenas Gurley and William Marks admitted that Joseph taught plural marriage and that Emma participated.
• Over time, Joseph Smith III hedged his firm denials: if Joseph taught it, it was a mistake or sinful.
  • Quote (31:49): “There’s no possible way Joseph Smith received D&C 132 – if he did, then…it must have been either from man or of the devil.” — Dr. Dirkmaat reading Joseph Smith III

Summary of Reorganized Church Response (35:48–38:36)

• The RLDS/CoC eventually adopted a line that Joseph “experimented” with doctrines like polygamy and later abandoned them, a historically questionable assertion.

Faith, Sacrifice, and Judging Pioneer Experience (41:41–44:58)

• Modern discomfort with plural marriage should not overshadow or diminish the faith and sacrifices made by those who practiced it under the belief it was commanded by God.
  • Quote (42:37): “Instead of spending all of our time thinking about how hard it would be for us to live it, we should probably spend more of our time grateful that the same men and women…absolutely believed that it was something God wanted them to do.” — Dr. Dirkmaat

3. Official Declaration 1 and the End of New Plural Marriages (38:36–41:41)

• OD1 (1890) ended the practice of entering into new plural marriages in the U.S., but didn't immediately end all polygamous relationships; some continued in Canada, Mexico, and unofficially in the U.S. until Joseph F. Smith’s “Second Manifesto.”
• Not all men at the time honored the spirit of the OD1, requiring further clarifications and disciplinary actions.
  • Quote (40:44): “[Wilford Woodruff] has to publicly denounce some men in Utah who used the manifesto as a pretext to stop caring for wives that they didn’t like.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the burden of pioneer plural wives:
  "The people have sacrificed quite a bit... they were, and they sacrificed everything to do it." – Dr. Leduc (29:33)
• On denials by William Smith:
  "So is William Smith lying? I think you have to say demonstrably, yes, he's lying, because he himself practiced plural marriage." – Dr. Dirkmaat (17:02)
• On family feuds and Church leadership:
  "By the end of the 19th century, they are both at the heads of the churches that are attacking one another. Much more so the Reorganized Church is attacking the Church in Utah." – Dr. Dirkmaat (22:57)
• On generational perspective:
  "Frankly, the reality is that many of the people who feel the most upset about plural marriage actually owe their existence to a plural marriage at some point in their line." – Dr. Dirkmaat (44:14)

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Segmented Timestamps

• [00:37–10:11] Holiday humor, Yoohoo and sports odds banter
• [10:15–46:40] Christy's Corner: Deep dive into Joseph Smith, Emma, RLDS positions, and polygamy
• [38:36–41:41] Official Declaration 1, the end of plural marriage, and ongoing aftereffects
• [41:41–44:58] Reflection on faith, judging the past, and honoring pioneers’ sacrifices

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Dead and in Hell Part 8: Setting the Scene (46:47–66:17)

Judge Perry Brocchus, the Washington Monument, and Utah Politics

• [46:47–66:17]
  The hosts set up the main historical narrative (deferred to next episode due to time):
  • Judge Brocchus arrives in Utah, gives a (initially flattering) speech at General Conference about raising funds for the Washington Monument.
  • Uses political and biblical language; described as smarmy and reminiscent of a Broadway salesman (“Music Man” references abound—showing the hosts' comic style and use of historical pop culture).
• The real "Dead and in Hell" drama is deferred: Brocchus’s speech will provoke great controversy, noted as a “gigantic political disaster.”

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Upcoming Features & Listener Interaction (66:17–68:43)

• Jokes about adding a JST (Joseph Smith Translation) sidebar to future episodes, inviting listener feedback.
• Playful allusions to the “constant stake auxiliary reorganizations” caused by Christy’s Corner, and imaginary promotions of prominent listeners.
• Plans to return to the main Dead and in Hell narrative and further historical analysis in the following episode.

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Tone & Style

• The episode mixes rigorous Church history scholarship with quick banter, light sarcasm, and references to 20th-century pop culture (e.g., "Music Man," Simpsons).
• The hosts continually balance humor and reverence for the subject matter, especially in discussions of challenging topics like plural marriage.

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Summary for New Listeners

This is one of the more detailed episodes for listeners interested in how plural marriage was viewed by early Church leaders’ families and how those views evolved and conflicted with abundant historical sources. The hosts make clear that while the cessation of plural marriage (OD1) is often seen as a “clean break,” the reality was far more complex, involving decades of adaptation, ongoing relationships, and shifting narratives, especially among break-off groups and descendants of Joseph Smith.

If you've never listened before, this episode delivers a frank, faith-based historical analysis with a trademark mix of levity, humanity, and sincerity toward the real saints who lived these extraordinary stories.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

Foreign.

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[B]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. For Dead in Hell, Part 8.

[A]

It would seem like we would be near the end of Dead and in.

[B]

Hell, you'd think so.

[A]

What I wanted to do was I wanted to replicate Jonathan Edwards explanation of the eternity of hell by the number of times we would talk about it on the podcast.

[B]

I think you've done it. I think you've done Jonathan Edwards. I think you've done Dante. I think you've done them all. I think you've really painted a picture.

[A]

Yeah. What I'm really looking for is the metal band Danzig. I need to, I need to replicate what they, what they've done and, and we'll maybe, maybe, maybe then people will fully comprehend it. I, I, we, we actually took a break from it last week. We did accidentally, like most things we do on the podcast.

[B]

Yes, Dead and not in Hell. Alvin Smith.

[A]

Yeah, that'll get lost in there and people will be wondering.

Speaking of wondering. So my wife is a kind sort. I believe your wife does the same thing.

But every holiday time, my wife sets up a.

I don't know, a treat basket for the delivery people who come to our door.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. The Amazon folks, they just have set up an encampment in our front yard. It saves time.

[A]

Yeah. Well, literally the other day we had one of the delivery drivers come to our house to get a treat, but not actually bring a delivery. That's they delivered it to the next door neighbor, ran over, grabbed a treat, took off.

[B]

You know what I'd say? What? You know what? Good for them and good for your wife and good for my wife and all of those folks that.

For what it's worth, that can be a brutal gig during the holidays. So that is very nice.

[A]

Yeah. Now, why I brought that up.

[B]

Well, why?

[A]

Well, while we were speaking about, you know, damnation and.

A friend of the show, Leslie, when we were trying to determine whether or not Yoohoo was a chocolatey drink.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Or perhaps a search engine that Richard uses only after he gets done with Ask Jeeves.

Right after he finishes his AOL online sign in to check his mail and he first checks Ask Jeeves. He then goes right to the yoohoo search engine.

You know, it's a joke from the past, but Wesley and Ryan sent my house a case of yoohoo.

Which luckily now this was several months ago, but luckily the shelf life is forever. I mean, so they don't ever expire. If there's a nuclear holocaust, you want Yoo Hoos and Twinkies. Those are the two things that you're going to be fine. Yeah, I mean, you know, sure you're going to need some other way to fight the zombies, but you need those two things. So now I've tried to offload this to my.

My children's friends and I have on occasion when, when there's 30 kids over gotten one or two of them to drink it.

So I'm now attempting to offload it.

As part of the free offering. Oh my delivery point.

[B]

You're a monster.

[A]

I. I'm not just giving him Yoo. There's other things in there like salted black licorice or other things that people don't want. It's originals.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious. Any takers?

[A]

Well, so that's. I, I've been watching and not yet, not yet there. We had multiple deliveries. No one has yet taken them. I'm going to assume it's because they weren't sure they could get on the Internet with the box if they took it.

[B]

Sounds like you've turned your ring camera into one of those bird watching video.

[A]

It's very similar. Yes. In fact, I mean it is true. And you know what, these delivery drivers, they know because they will often say to the ring camera, thanks as they trundle off with a little cake Christmas tree that they, you know, that they took a little Debbie snack or whatever.

[B]

Nice. Yeah, that is, that is very funny.

[A]

So what's the over under on through the entire holiday season with the Yoo who's out there already chilled as much as they can be chilled because it's outside, they won't freeze. The best part, like if you put out water bottles, they're eventually going to freeze. Yeah. Soda will freeze out. It legitimately can't freeze.

[B]

Yeah. It's literally one of the ingredients, I believe is antifreeze.

[A]

Yeah. No, Well, I mean, I don't, I don't know that.

[B]

But also, are the Yoo people, are they a litigious group?

[A]

I'm. They're about to be. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

They're not trying to poison anybody.

[A]

I don't know how often they listen to podcasts of Latter Day Saint history. I don't. I mean, I'm assuming a lot, but they would listen to better ones like Follow Him. They wouldn't listen.

[B]

Yeah, we recommend that the executives at Yoohoo listen to Follow Him.

[A]

So anyway, so what's the over under Will I make it to Christmas? I've got. I've got three Yoohoos out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Will any of them be taken? And how many of them will be taken?

[B]

I've actually, I've actually pulled this up here. I've got the MGM Sportsbook. They put it at 0.5.

[A]

So, so, so someone is going to take half one. So they're going to. They're going to pick it up and drop it in the yard.

[B]

Well, so like, so oftentimes this is a. This is very important that people understand this when it comes to sports betting. Garrett, Nobody in Vegas necessarily knows or thinks of a particular thing. What, what the Sportsbook does is, is to get bets. 50% bets on both sides of the bet, and then they make their money on what is termed as the vig or the. The amount to. To process the bet. So the goal is always 50%. So it's just what the people. So I think that MGM in this particular case wants equal bets on both sides.

[A]

Right. But they assume that. That there's going to be people saying that someone's going to take one of the users.

[B]

That's correct.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That. That is the assumption. And MGM Sportsbook has it at 0.5. I think that's. I think that's way too high.

[A]

By the way.

[B]

I think you're gonna end up going.

[A]

Gambling at all on this program. I hope none of you took BYU against Texas Tech. No, no, I think they'll cover. They were never going to cover. There was a better chance of me covering against Texas Tech.

[B]

You. You did have more rushing yards than Alabama over the weekend. They had negative 3.

[A]

I love the fact they still made it into the playoffs.

[B]

What a. So I think that what'll happen, what's more likely to happen than someone taking the Yoo Hoo is that you have three and you end the season with four.

[A]

Okay, that. Now that's a. That's what you call a parlay. The parlay is not only will no1 take 1, someone will bring another Yoohoo and put it in my little. On my porch for the little care package.

[B]

I think they would. Because I'm not convinced that anyone has ever. I, you know, purchased one on purpose.

[A]

Since someone bought me one on the tour that we were on. And it was actually, look, it was fine when it, when it, when you get it as cold as you possibly can. So when it's 98 degrees Kelvin scale, it's just right next to absolute zero.

[B]

At 270 Kelvin, it starts to get cold.

[A]

I mean, the emulsion that the Yoo who is is. It has a hard time cooling down, but it was fine. I mean, look, it tasted pretty good, honestly. But you know, it's a lot of calories for me to just like, you.

[B]

Know, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Yeah.

[A]

Grab a box and drink chocolate water. Is not. It's.

You know, I would much rather just, you know, fill up my, my giant Stanley or hydro flask with diet Coke, which obviously is not good for you either. So really this, this show is, is not a health show. It's not. Outside of Richard's attempt to starve himself with his not intermittent but week long fasting, we, we don't really bring a lot to the table when it comes to health. But you know what we do bring to the table? We bring Christie's Corner.

[B]

We do.

[A]

We have an email.

This week that because of the question kind of pertains to Christie's Corner. So do you want to play the Christie's Corner sounder now and then read the email or do you want to read the email and then hit them with. With the Stinger?

[B]

No, let's, let's Stinger it now.

[A]

Okay, here comes the Stinger. When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're cool, when you want to seem wise and not a fool, it's Christy's Corner.

[B]

All right, so Garrett, this email, the from the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown email as part of Christie's Corner comes to us from Adam. That's a lot of names to read of nothing. That's actually a sponsor, by the way.

[A]

We just spent 10 minutes talking about Yoon.

[B]

True. How are they not a sponsor? Because maybe mostly because we bag on.

[A]

I'm pretty sure Leslie buying that case of yoohoo doubled their sales.

[B]

Had to have. This email comes to us from Adam subject who knew.

Good doctors. I finally finished all of the free episodes and I'm hoping Santa Claus will give me a subscription to your premium content for Christmas. In an earlier episode, you mentioned that Emma denied knowing Joseph practiced plural marriage in an interview late in her life. So official declaration 1, I guess is what it is.

[A]

So I figure because we're talking About Official Declaration 1 in Sunday School that I've been trying to avoid the topic of polygamy for quite some time. So.

Official declaration 1, ending the practice of new plural marriages. So I thought this question may be related.

[B]

Very good. In an interview late in her life, although other accounts soundly refute that. Obviously Hyrum was aware. Considering the strong denials from Joseph Smith III when he visited Utah, is it safe to say that he was unaware that his father had multiple wives? What about his other siblings? Did his parents know? That is, did Lucy mention it in her memoir? I realized the practice of plural marriage was very limited and kept secret during Joseph Smith's life and became much more public when the Saints arrived in Utah. But it surprises me that a figure as prominent as Joseph in Nauvoo could be married several times and his closest family members were unaware. I'm not refuting the testimonies of his wives, but rather wondering whether William and Joseph Smith III were being disingenuous in their denials. Great question, Adam.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, first of all, we've discussed multiple times on this podcast the growing apostate movement and picked up by apostates of people that claim that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy.

The question, of course, it comes from this place of, well, wouldn't these people who were close to Joseph know? And they're the ones saying that they didn't. Now, In Joseph Smith III's case, he's a child, right? So everything that you are going to.

You'Re going to filter this through.

Joseph Smith III is certainly not very old.

Not even 12 at the time that Joseph Smith is murdered. So do 10 and 11 year olds.

Are they savvy enough to understand the things that are going on around them? Probably not, right? I mean.

Especially because these sealings are being done in secret and because it's being taught in secret. Joseph isn't pulling aside Joseph Smith III and saying, hey, by the way, also, I'm practicing polygamy, right? And so I don't think that in that sense Joseph Smith III is being dishonest. I don't think he ever witnesses something that he thinks is a plural marriage.

Now, William Smith is a completely other story. Now, the reason why I think this question came up, and it's kind of related to our dead and in hell, right? Is in dead and in hell, I don't know, what was it? 4, 7, 35? Whatever it was one of them. We read William Smith's attack against the church, that, that he attacked Brigham Young that he attacked the church in Utah. He had started his own church and then got cut off from his own church a couple of weeks after he had started it, which is always fun. He. He made a big portion of his attack that Brigham Young invented polygamy and no polygamy was practiced. So this is a really good question related to what we're talking about. William Smith is adamant that Brigham Young invented polygamy.

So William Smith is saying that. Here's the problem.

We have from multiple sources. And what I'm about to read you actually comes from a. An RLDS historian. So a Community of Christ Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saint historian, that in 1845.

William Smith not only knows about plural marriages.

He enters into multiple plural marriages.

Part of the reason why Brigham Young sees William Smith, and by extension Emma as being so dishonest on this topic in a way that Joseph Smith III isn't, is he knows that Emma knows about the marriages, that she can say that she doesn't know about them, but Brigham Young knows that she knows because he was present for them, and that's how he knows. Right. Similarly, if William Smith is going to claim that he never practiced polygamy and Brigham Young is the one who sealed William Smith to his plural wives, well, Brigham's got it on pretty good authority that William Smith practiced plural marriage because he was there for the ceremony.

He was married to Mary Ann Sheffield, Mary Jones.

Priscilla Moggridge, and at least according to some sources, Sarah and Hannah Libby. So.

Claiming that plural marriage was never taught is a pretty hard argument to make when you were practicing it.

At the very least, William Smith should have said Brigham Young introduced plural marriage, which of course he didn't, and he even tricked me into practicing it. But you'll notice William Smith doesn't say that in his remonstrance. He claims it was never taught. He claims it was invented. He claims that only after they got to Utah did they find out about it. And so is William Smith lying? I think you have to say demonstrably, yes, he's lying because he himself practiced plural marriage. So that. That's how you know. Now, when it comes to.

When. When it comes to Joseph Smith iii.

It'S a much more complicated thing.

His mother, of course, is saying that Joseph never taught or practiced it. And Joseph Smith III really kind of. He. He takes up the kind of argument that you'll often hear polygamy deniers take up. They start with the premise, polygamy is a sin. It's always a sin. And it's always evil. And God never would have commanded anyone to practice it ever. So that they start with that as their premise. When that's your starting point, then you filter all evidence through the reality that you're trying to uphold. And that is polygamy is evil. Therefore, Joseph Smith never would have taught polygamy because it's evil. So when you start to get more and more evidence that say things like.

Joseph Smith did teach it.

You have to then find a way to refute it.

Now, this is difficult, right, because it's when you have the various groups that are competing with one another for members that aren't Brighamites, they're making all kinds of different arguments. Sure, you have some that are arguing that Joseph Smith never taught and practiced it, men like Joseph Smith iii.

But then you have others like Sidney Rigdon, who we. We spent some time on. On another episode. I don't remember when. I don't remember why, you know, but some. Some enchanted evening, we had a conversation where we read from Sidney Rigdon's newspaper where he started out being all cagey and. And, oh, it's all Brigham's fault. It's all Brigham's fault. And a year into that paper is like, yeah, Joseph Smith started practicing polygamy. And that's how I knew he was a false prophet. Right. So you have some people that were insiders that are not simply making the argument.

Brigham Young invented polygamy. They're actually making the argument Joseph Smith became a fallen prophet because he practiced polygamy or taught the plurality of gods, things like that.

So Joseph Smith III is of course officially going to say, yeah, my father never taught it. No one ever taught it.

But over the course of time, he is going to be inundated with evidence that, in fact, his father practiced it. And so, you know, this will culminate in the series of letters that Joseph F. Smith, Hyrum's son, and Joseph Smith iii. I mean, it really is a pretty incredible thing that at the turn of the century, in the turn of the 1900s, both churches are being led by children of the two prophets that were murdered.

In Carthage. Hyrum's son is leading the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and Joseph's son is leading the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And they write these giant, extended. I mean, they grew up together. These are cousins who grew up together playing with each other in each other's households in Nauvoo. And they went through the shared collective horror of the murders of their fathers.

And so they have, they have a lot of. I mean, they went through the shared collective horror of.

Missouri and the violence surrounding that. So they have a lot of shared history as well as a lot of shared beliefs. And then, you know, there's a pretty stark break when one's claiming to be a prophet who holds the keys and the other's claiming to be the prophet who holds the keys. Those are what you might call irreconcilable differences. I don't know if anyone listening. I know that someone listening has ever been a part of a family feud. And I don't mean getting, you know, going down and getting kissed on the lips by the host as he's welcoming you to the show.

Where there is this break in the family relations.

That separate what you would otherwise have as a pretty cordial relationship. By all accounts, Joseph Smith III and Joseph F. Smith really cared about one another when they were younger. And now, almost as circumstances have transpired by the end of the 19th century, they are both at the heads of the churches that are attacking one another. Much more. So the Reorganized Church is attacking the church in Utah. Again, we aren't saying anything positive about the Reorganized Church ourselves, but the difference is.

Our church is so much larger, right? It's so much larger. It has so many more members that even today it's kind of how it is. I mean, you ask a Community of Christ member what they think about the Saints in Utah, they are going to have a pretty ready answer. I use the phrase community of Christ to a member in my local ward, they won't know who I'm talking about. I will have to say, well, they used to be called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. And then they will respond. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, did they believe that Joseph Smith's son was supposed to be the prophet? Like, that's all they'll literally know. That's the end of their knowledge about the organized church.

[B]

My go to there is I say, don't they believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers? That's what I say.

[A]

Well, that's what you say. That's what you say every time you're talking to someone who you know is, is as an evangelical Christian, that has become the, the rallying cry. It's actually how I know whether or not someone is being honest or disingenuous online.

[B]

When they, when they, when they flex that one.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. Because here's the thing. Outside of that one crazy guy in your high priest group.

You have never. You have Never from a manual or from any apostolic teaching in church. Had a lesson that centered on why Jesus and Satan are brothers. Never had that. That.

[B]

Never.

[A]

So. So the very fact that someone brings it up as if, yeah, you're just taught like every day that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Just. Yeah, it's like, so we go to church, we're like, hey, should we do the sacrament? Let's talk about how similar Jesus is to Satan first before we do that. And then also let's find ways to hoard more tithing and then use it to pay the Illuminati off for our temple. I mean, when someone goes there, that's how I know you are a person not to be taken seriously. Well, I need to move on because we're going to end up not being able to do Dead in hell part 35, or whatever we're at now.

But over the course of his life, there's some pretty good evidence that Joseph Smith III started to realize.

That there was a lot of smoke around the fire that Joseph Smith taught plural marriage. Right. I mean, around that idea. And.

Seems to start to weigh on him in a sense that.

He. He kind of starts to back off. So even in these letters that they wrote back and forth to one another where they were like, you're wrong about this, you're wrong about that. At one point, he actually says to Joseph F. Smith, even if my father did teach and practice polygamy, if he did, then it was a sin.

So he actually came Sidney Rigdon, full circle, where.

I don't think that he did. He probably didn't. But if even all of this evidence showing that he did is right.

Then the practice was still wrong. And so you can see, like I said, his starting point was the practice of polygamy is evil. It can never be. Okay? So as the evidence weighs and weighs and weighs that maybe Joseph did teach and practice it, instead of changing his position.

He simply said, well, then, if my father did that, then he was sinning because polygamy is evil no matter what. And so it actually is pretty similar to the position of some polygamy deniers today, that.

Joseph didn't teach it, but if he did teach was a sin, that he taught it. Right? So it's not that if I can convince you that Joseph taught it that you will then believe that God commanded it for a time, it's if I convince you that Joseph taught it, you're going to lose your testimony or say that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet because he taught it.

There is no go to that is Joseph could have received a revelation on it. Let me give you some examples of this. I mean, you probably don't want anymore. You probably want to move on.

[B]

No, no. We're talking polygamy. I always want examples.

[A]

It's true. You love polygamy so much. You know what, though? One of the greatest defenders of plural marriage that's not a polygamist is actually Richard's wife. So I never feel comfortable about this.

[B]

Well, no, look, and I've mentioned this before, Becky's incredibly proud of her pioneer heritage, as she should be. They were incredible people. And you've said this a million times. And Becky says it a little more strong because these are her family members that she loves from history that she has great pride in. But you aren't asked to live it, and you're complaining about it. They were, and they sacrificed everything to do it. So why don't you. I don't mean to be channeling. Look, I know polygamy is a difficult subject, and it's hard for a host of reasons, and I don't mean to be overly reductive and simplistic on this, but at the same time.

The people have sacrificed quite a bit, and we're.

[A]

How about.

[B]

What's the thing that you said? Helen Kimball Maher doesn't want your apologies.

[A]

Yeah. She doesn't want your sympathy. Yep. She doesn't need. You're like, I just feel so bad for her. Go read what she has to say. You will stop.

You'll find someone else to feign your sympathy for, because that's ultimately what it is. Because if you. If you claim that you care about her, then you would know what she had to say about it. And if you don't, then you don't really care about her. You're just going off of what someone on the Internet told you.

So you know Roger Launius in. In an article he wrote on it, you know, he pulls out some of this, like, trepidation. You know, Joseph III, you know, tells one person who asks in 1877, so, like, did Joseph Smith teach polygamy? He responds, so far as polygamy or spiritual wifery is concerned, the reorganization. So the reorganized church denies its correctness without reference to whether or not Joseph Smith did or did not practice it. So again, the position is it is wrong, even if Joseph practiced it. But one of the early apostles of the reorganized church is named Zenas Gurley, which is. I mean, that's a pretty awesome name, right?

[B]

That's a great name. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. He Kind of pushes the issue a lot that, hey, there is a lot of evidence coming in that your dad taught this. And so he's going to have a back and forth with Joseph Smith iii. And I mean, I don't know that this is the case, but eventually Zenith girl is going to be excommunicated. So maybe this is one of the things that's pushing it where Gurley is like, listen, there is a ton of evidence. And I think, while publicly still maintaining my father never taught or practiced it, that evidence starts to weigh a little bit. I mean, Joseph Smith III writes another letter in 1878 where he says, I fully believe that Joseph Smith did not receive the revelation referred to. Yet if he did, did.

So, that's a pretty big hedge, right? I mean, there's no possible way Joseph Smith received Doctrine and Covenant, Section 132 if he did. I guess there is a. I mean, I don't ever say things like, I am certain that Joseph Smith saw God in Jesus if he didn't. No, I don't ever do that, because there is no if, as far as I'm concerned. But he said if he did, it is so directly opposed to the laws already received that I must admit it to have been either from man or of the devil. So here he's already saying he's essentially coming to that conclusion. Now.

This really comes to a head because you have people like William Marx. William Marx, who was the stake president in Nauvoo, who himself was opposed to the teaching of polygamy, is well aware that Joseph taught plural marriage.

But he's now a member of the Reorganized Church. So how do you deal with the fact that Willie Marx also is going to say, hey.

Pretty sure Joseph received that revelation and not Brigham Young, because Hyrum's the one who read it to me. So. So, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, this attempt to distance yourself completely from it becomes difficult in. In this, you know, later meeting, you know, Lonius points out that the question arose as to whether Joseph the Martyr taught the doctrine of polygamy. President William Marks said brother Hyrum Smith came to his place and told him he did not believe in it, and he was going to go see Joseph about it, and if he had a revelation on the subject, he would believe it. After that, Hyrum read a revelation on it to the High Council, and Marx felt that it was not true, but he saw the High Council receive it. Now that.

What are you going to say there? Right? Here's William Marx, who's one of your followers.

And, and, but the problem is the person he's indicting is your dad, right? And so you've staked out a position that there's absolutely no possible way that Joseph could have done it. And then you have people who are followers of yours who are like, look, Joseph the third, you're the one with the keys. Brigham's wrong on all kinds of things.

But Brigham Young didn't. Didn't create that revelation. I know he didn't because Hyrum Smith read it to me in a group of people. So Brigham Young couldn't have. Unless you're saying Hiram was in on it too. You know, so, I mean, you could go through all the different ways that he tries to refute it and tries to push back against it, but, you know, they have things like.

You know.

They have other evidences that come in, right? I mean, you have one person who, you know, they, they. One of their apostles, interviews. And, and that person says, Joseph did teach polygamy and practice it, too. Emma knows it too. She put the hand of wives in Joseph's hand.

Whitehead says Alexander H. Smith asked him if Joseph did practice and teach polygamy. And he. Whitehead, told him that he did. I mean, so they certainly, I mean, now they might say, well, that person's lying. That person's, you know, and certainly there's that going on.

But, you know, you do end up with this.

Increasing denial, even though behind the scenes there's clearly a hesitation, there's an idea that, you know, what, maybe he did. Maybe he did practice it, but of course it was wrong if he did. And that, you know, honestly is. It's kind of the position that at least the historians of the Community of Christ or the Reorganized Church, it's kind of the position that they have settled on that Joseph taught a lot of experimental doctrines in Nauvoo that weren't actually from God and that he realized that they were wrong and moved away from them. And that's their kind of their semi. Official line. Joseph taught polygamy and practiced polygamy, but he realized that it wasn't right, and so he stopped practicing it and moved away from it. That's. That's the argument. Now, the evidence for that latter part is. Is very suspect.

But let me just leave one last letter that, that Joseph Smith iii.

He, he knows.

He knows that there's a lot of evidence. Zenith Gurley, again, to him, says, you absolutely refuse to believe the evidence that would convict your father.

And, you know, Joseph III says, well, I'm not positive nor sure that he was innocent from it.

Joseph iii, though, will say to Zenas Gurtley, I tell you, brother, and this is in 1879, I've been cut to the quick when brethren have affirmed that I did know that my father was guilty of practicing polygamy and denied it because I was obstinate and sinned against the light and knowledge in so denying. So even with this kind of halting and hesitation and more and more evidence coming in, you can tell that it's something that Joseph Smith III still takes very personally and more and more personally, as people say, look, Joseph, I mean, obviously this was going on and, you know, so he will always have that official position of that he didn't, but then kind of that private position of, well, maybe he did, but if he did, it was a sin. So, you know, that that relates to Official Declaration 1. Not at all. But I think it is important to note the heading to Official Declaration 1 explains that God commanded plural marriage for a time and that that time passed and that.

After that time passed.

God gave the revelation to Wilford Woodruff, Ending plural marriage. Now, it doesn't actually end plural marriage. We've made this point before on the podcast. It ends the new plural marriages. It ends more marriages being entered into. And even then, only in the United States. And even then, there are some apostles that are still performing plural marriages clandestinely behind the scenes, like Matthias Cowley. But you still have some new plural marriages entered into in Canada and in Mexico, until the. What's often called the second Declaration, in which Joseph Smith says. Sorry. In which Joseph F. Smith, I left that. Well, you got to have the F in there.

[B]

Remember the F. It's literally.

[A]

It's literally, remember the F. Joseph F. Smith says, even in countries where plural marriage is allowed to be practiced, or they're not, you know, they're not cracking down on laws against it that they're no longer going to enter into authorized plural marriages. And that's not until, you know, the 20th century. And so one of the things that people take away from plural marriage that's incorrect is they think that in 1890, there were no more any polygamists. Joseph F. Smith himself, remember the F.

Has three wives.

When he is brought before Congress and asked if he's still practicing plural marriage. And Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith says, I refuse to abandon the wives of my youth. And. And so Latter Day Saints continue to practice plural marriage if they entered into those marriages before the manifesto, at least in many cases. Now, in some cases, it's actually Pretty scandalous. Wilfrid Woodruff has to.

He has to publicly denounce some men in Utah who used the manifesto as a pretext to stop caring for wives that they didn't like, because they were in this situation where it was very difficult for a man to get a divorce from a woman in a plural marriage. But a woman could easily obtain a divorce for any purpose from a man in a plural marriage. So what happened when the declaration came out? You had some of these not so great men.

Use the manifesto as a pretext to stop providing for their wives that they would rather not be married to anymore. And so Wilford Woodruff has to publicly denounce them and say, hey, that's not how this works.

So obviously, plural marriage is a very difficult topic. There are all kinds of sources around it. There's a reason why we're waiting till season 38. But I think the point Richard made earlier that.

Our ancestors who.

Sacrificed to practice it and to be persecuted because others practiced it, they deserve our benefit of the doubt and our faith. And instead of spending all of our time thinking about how hard it would be for us to live it, we should probably spend more of our time grateful that the same men and women who left bloody footprints in the snow from Missouri to Nauvoo and from Nauvoo to winter quarters, who buried children along the way, because they were certain that this was God's kingdom on earth.

That their actual lived experience.

Deserves a little bit more credibility than our attempts to make our present and our past look exactly the same.

We know that God commanded it for a time. We know that God has now commanded that it not happen.

But we shouldn't try to allow. We shouldn't allow our discomfort to undermine the faith and sacrifice that those women made because they did something that was absolutely opposed to American culture, absolutely opposed to everything that they were raised and taught up to believe, and they did it because a prophet taught it. And. And they made their Abrahamic sacrifice and. And. And place something on the altar. And, you know, when I go and I speak to groups, I can go speak to a group right now, have a thousand people in there now. They wouldn't all stay till the end. I'd have to ask the question really early because, you know, a thousand people are there. There's only like 200 left. And they're just waiting for the cookies after I'm 10 minutes in. But I could go ask how many of you are in any way descended from plural marriages? And look, if I'm giving that fireside In Utah or Arizona or Idaho, there are a lot of hands that go up. And frankly, the reality is that many of the people who feel the most upset about plural marriage actually owe their existence to a plural marriage at some point in their line. I don't know why God commanded it. I'm not a prophet. I don't have the ability to. To speak for God.

But I do know that there are men and women who absolutely believed that it was something God wanted them to do, and they upheld their covenants and they found joy in the fact that they practiced it. So hopefully we can measure our current feelings against their sacrifice.

[B]

That's much better said than what I said, which was essentially, hey, get over it. I feel like that was. Well said, Garrett. Very nice. Very, very good. Now, we do have another email I'm going to just paraphrase. It comes to us from David, who's responsible for all of this dead and in hell business.

He makes several. It's a very funny email. But ultimately, he is the stake executive secretary in his stake and he has been so busy.

I'll quote this. All my free time has been spent scheduling interviews and setting apart for reorganizations of our Stake Relief Society Young Women's Primary and Sunday School presidency. Because of all the people listening to Christie's Corner, which is very hilarious.

[A]

They just keep having to reorganize all their stake.

[B]

Because of all of the qualified people. Yeah, because they.

[A]

So they have a new Relief Society president and then they listen to another woman make a comment in Sunday School and they're like, you know what? We've got to get her in there too. And so they just go reorganize it again. Every week they're reorganizing it. Reorganizing.

[B]

He. So he has. He has it put the over under on numbers of dead in hell between the Harry Potter number of platforms before you get to nine and three quarters. And the number of pies that Becky makes Thanksgiving, she on average makes 32 pies.

[A]

I'm going to take the over on Becky's pies for sure. Well, certainly the Becky's pies is a sure bet. We.

[B]

It's. It's quite the. The reason I have to fast as much is because of all the pies that are so incredible. But Garrett, we're on Dead in Hell 8. We're at, you know, 46 plus minutes in. What. What can you tell us where. Where are we at?

[A]

George Washington. We were talking about the good Judge Brocas, who at times has his name spelled by Utahns in A different dollar sign.

[B]

Dollar sign. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

His name is spelled B R, O, C, C, H, U, S. But at times people will spell it B, R, O, K, E. And then you can imagine what the next word was. But.

If you recall, he asked to.

Address the General Conference.

On the. On the. Under the auspices of raising money to build the Washington Monument. And. And Brigham Young readily says, okay, you can do that. Now, he's already stirred up a little bit of controversy because when he comes out to Utah, Judge Brocas, on his way out late, remember, he's super late getting there. He was appointed nine months before he even shows up. You know, look, I realize it takes a while to get to Utah, but that's not a very good argument to the pioneers. What? One of the things you can't do is say to someone who just walked 1500 miles over a mountain range, like, yeah, I mean, I would have gotten here sooner. It was just like a really difficult journey. Oh, really, really difficult. Were you being chased by a mob when you did it or was there an army coming to march? So it was super hard for you though, right? Yeah, it must have been, like, terrible. It's kind of like, you know, the young childless couple complaining to a woman who has four kids under the age of four about how, yeah, we've just been so busy that we haven't been able to get very much sleep. And the woman with the four children is, huh. She's mentally stabbing them. She's inside her mind. She's like. It's. She. She has a vision of her going to the cabinet, going to the cutlery board, coming back. Oh, you're really, really tired. Well, let me help you sleep then. Okay. You know, so. So there's not a lot of sympathy from the Utahns when these federal officials who show up are talking about just how terrible and hard their trip was. They're like, yeah, yeah, I can't imagine what it was like. Oh, you had enough food and money when you set out. Great. What a terrible time you must have had as you rode a steamship half of the way. I'm sure it was just daunting for you.

Anyway. Apparently. So he joins Orson Hyde. Remember, the apostle Orson Hyde was in Iowa. He is actually going to travel to Utah with Brocas. And so one of the things that becomes difficult to separate is when Brocas starts going on his tirade in this speech. Sorry, that's a spoiler alert.

It's hard to tell what Brocas has heard from his fellow federal officials in Utah territory when he gets there. Or what he's heard with the Latter Day Saint Company he traveled with, because some of it appears to be coming from that Latter Day Saint Company, from Orson Hyde himself. Again, Latter Day Saints are not positively disposed towards the United States at this point. The United States has done nothing for them, has done everything against them.

And while they love the Constitution and many of them are American citizens, they still see the federal government as more of an enemy than a help. And the arrival of these federal judges.

Ultimately does nothing to mitigate the idea that the federal government is actually your enemy. Because no sooner do they escape the American empire than the Mexican War places them squarely back inside the American empire. And it's not like there were great reforms that were made. Americans still generally rage and hate against Mormons. The federal officials that they interact with are far more involved with lining their own pockets and with.

Furthering their own political careers than they are with doing justice to the Latter Day Saints.

So Brocas.

He gets up to speak and it's not entirely clear where some of his information comes from, but one of the things that is clearly will come out in this is apparently, you know, like I said, they're always office seeking Brocas on his way out. He's not to Utah yet. He has already started telling some of the Latter Day Saints and non Latter Day Saints he's traveling with that. You know, he's going as an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the territory of Utah, but he intends, after serving these good people, to stand as a senator when Utah becomes a state.

And you know, he's already electioneering as they're going across the plains. He hasn't met anyone yet. And this is actually going to come up multiple times that this guy is such an. We already know. I mean you don't have to be a Mormon to know that Perry Brocas is an office seeker. He has petitioned multiple administrations trying to get positions, trying to become a territorial judge in Minnesota, trying to get a position in the cabinet, trying to get these paid federal positions until he finally landed one with the Millard Fillmore administration. So the idea that he's also off wants to trade that up to being a senator is not surprising at all. So let me read the minutes of this conference meeting. Now this might take a little bit of time.

But you have an idea of what's going to happen. Conference met pursuant to adjournment and called to order by President Young. Come all ye Saints who dwell on Earth was sung by the choir and prayer by Elder Joseph Young. That's Brigham Young's brother.

Once more we come before our God was sung, followed by.

Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith, a poem to them.

President Young then arose and introduced the Honorable Perry Brocas, Associate Judge of the Supreme Court, to the congregation. Now, this is what I want you to think about, what it would be like today if President Oaks stood up and said, welcome to General Conference. We're now going to hear from, you know, associate, you know, justice of the Ninth Circuit Court, you know, whoever who's not a member of the church. Can you imagine them introducing a non member? Not just, you know, because they. They always acknowledge. We acknowledge in attendance. They acknowledge that there's other people there. Well, that's not the same thing as having them speak. Now, it's easier back then to have people speak because this was not being televised. There was no radio. There were no time constraints you had to keep. So it was easier to just, you know, have someone else speak. But. So Brigham Young introduces the Honorable Perry Brocas and says, you know, you need to hear what he has to say, because Brocas has told Brigham Young, I am going to speak to your people and tell them that they need to help donate to the Washington Monument, because that was part of my charge when I came out here. And Brigham Young loves Washington, knows his people, love Washington. And so I was like, you know what? Great. We'd love to support the Washington Monument. What? We're all in on it, you know. Well, Perry Brocas then speaks. He arose and said, ladies and gentlemen, fellow citizens of the United States. So notice how. Notice how he says that right away. Already there is a little bit of a why. Why in the world do you need to address us as fellow citizens of the United States? It's kind of a. Kind of a weird way to address somebody, isn't it?

Most of you are strangers to me, though there are some faces that I'm acquainted with in my short residence in your midst. I have proved that you are hospitable and kind.

And I know how to give the hand of friendship. So he starts off, you know, compliment sandwich, right?

He starts off with, it's. It's great. You know, you people have been kind. I came here a stranger, and you took me in. I was sick and you visited me. Hey.

[B]

Okay, all right, all right.

[A]

Hey. He's bringing it. Some of you, if any of you have a politician that you like, who that politician or perhaps that, you know, you know, host of a program, they aren't particularly religious, but occasionally you'll hear them, like, drop into biblical speak when they're trying to make a point.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know whether I like that or it kind of annoys me. What does it feel?

[B]

Yeah. So when Trump said 2 Corinthians, you weren't sure exactly how to feel about that?

[A]

I mean, I knew exactly how to feel about it.

I don't know that he is always reading the Bible.

[B]

No, it is funny. That one made me laugh. It's not just politicians though. It's almost anybody that.

Tries to sneak it in and they use kind of a language that they are unfamiliar with and it is, I always get people.

[A]

Has it happened to you that someone has tried to quote the Book of Mormon to you when they were bashing with you?

[B]

That actually on my mission, that happened all the time.

[A]

Yeah. And it's hilarious because they legitimately have no idea what they're talking about.

[B]

I will say in non bashing instances, when a person tries to use more religious language, I try to extend grace to them as like, I think I know what you mean and I appreciate the effort even though I don't.

[A]

Yeah, really. I mean, when someone who is attacking my faith tries to attack you sure tries. I'm not used my holy scriptures to further their attack. I can't but help but utterly destroy them. I can't help it.

[B]

I did say specifically in a non bashing context.

[A]

When has that ever happened?

[B]

Just when people, you know, have you.

[A]

Ever had a conversation with someone who wasn't trying to be antagonistic but was like, yeah, I just like really loved what Enos had to say. I mean, when did that happen?

[B]

They're not quoting the Book of Mormon. I just say when they're using more religious type language and they.

[A]

Specifically about the Book of Mormon.

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, no, they, they can all burn straight in the fires of, I mean, Presbyterian hell.

[A]

You will sometimes have people sure. Quote from the Book of Mormon when they're trying to curry favor politically with, with a Latter Day Saint audience. You know, that aren't Latter Day Saints. You'll have, you'll have. Sometimes people say, you know, just like the Book of Mormon says and yeah, so you do have people do it at times in a positive way. They're trying to build some bridges. I'm saying that when someone tries to like attack your faith as they quote the Book of Mormon, I, I will very quickly ask them to cite who is even speaking.

You're gonna, you're gonna pretend that you know my Book of Scripture well enough to talk to me about it, but you don't know when it was written. You don't know who is saying it. You don't know the context in which it was said. So that means someone else told you to use this verse. So your extent. Your extent of studying my religion has been reading what someone online told you to say to me? Well, that's just about the most, I mean, disrespectful way you could engage with anyone on their religion.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[A]

So, anyway, well, back to Judge Brocas, who is, you know, it's. He's starting with compliment sandwich. Right. I was sick and you visited me When I lay on my back in bed A sainted woman came to my bedside and sweet the bliss.

Oh, sorry. And swept. I'm reading. I'm obviously not a typescript. And swept.

Away from my burn the sweat away from my burning side. So, I mean, he's. He. He was really sick when he got to Utah and Latter Day Saints took care of him. I heard a noise. Yes, she sighed I heard her she wept over a stranger. Can I forget? Such kindness. Now, look, he's. First of all, sounds like a politician. I mean, he's. He is rolling pretty thick. He's going Shakespearean on here. And. And this Latter Day Saint woman apparently wept over how sick he was. Can I forget Such kindness. And these next two no's are with exclamation points and they're underlined, so apparently he kind of shouted it. No, no. And dare I suppose that you ladies who are now before me are any different? No, I dare not, exclamation point.

That I greet you as my friends. I had heard of your.

[B]

Yeah, boy. Yeah, it's. It's kind of.

[A]

You can kind of feel like. I feel like he's about to sell me something that will cure boldness. That's where I feel like I'm at that. He's right. He's just about to say, what's it gonna take to get you to buy this band?

[B]

Yeah, just rub bananas in your. In the bald spots on your head and it'll grow back.

[A]

You know, it's. It always calls to mind, you know, the music man. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. When he's trying to tell them about the pool hall. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's trouble right here in River City. Trouble right here in River City. I make that comment sometimes, and I do so very casually. And I find that not as many people are fans of Broadway as apparently I am.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because I'll say, oh, man, we've got trouble right here at River City. And I'll look at the Blank stares back from three other men that I'm watching a football game with. And I'm like, it's a. Never mind.

[B]

When would you guess that that play came out, by the way?

[A]

Well, I mean, wow.

I mean, the movie has got to be like mid-60s, 70s, right? Something like that.

[B]

I will look, I will look at that. I have the play right now.

[A]

I would say, you know, probably mid-60s.

[B]

So 1957. So we want, we want to be relatable to our audience, to the, to the youth, to the missionaries.

[A]

The missionaries are always saying, hey, could you quote to me from a cultural reference from 75 years ago? And I say, I'm happy to oblige.

[B]

Yeah, you, you sure are. The movie came out in 62, so five years.

[A]

I called that. I called that.

[B]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

So mid-60s. But, but I was, I guess I, I, I thought that everybody was very conversant with the Music Man. It's funny, I, I even occasionally say things like, Gary, Indiana, and I get nothing. It's crickets.

[B]

You do it, like, in a high, squeaky point.

[A]

Gary. Gary, Indiana. Yeah. No, I get. But one of my favorite Simpsons spoofs of all time was where they spoofed the Music man, only with Monorail.

[B]

Yeah, it's a classic. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Where, where, where you have the Phil Hartman character who's playing the, the greasy salesman, right, who's lied to them about it. And they even do a whole, they do a whole song called Monorail. And at one point, Grandpa Simpson says to him, where are you sent here by the devil? He says, no good, sir. I'm on the level. And, and that's kind of how I feel with Perry Brocas. I feel like he's the smarmy. He's, he's the Phil Hartman, you know, character of on the Simpsons, trying to sell them a monorail. Even more smarmy than, you know, than the Music Bear himself in the, in the original play. But.

So he says, I greet you as my friends. I had heard of your kindness. The kindness of your people was well known to me before arriving in the valley. Now that. Okay, okay. Every single thing that's ever been written about Mormons is how much people hate them at this point. So at this point, I'm guessing if you were in the audience, you were like, okay. Was well known to you before you got here, even though literally every newspaper publishes stories that Mormons are dressing up like Indians and murdering people. But, but, yeah, all you heard was kindness. Oh, okay, okay. When I arrived at Kanesville, all of the blandishments and allurements of the most refined hospitality were lavished upon me. The Latter Day Saints have lavished their kindness on me and they are entitled to. To my most everlasting gratitude. I mean.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

It feels more like a king is addressing his subjects than it does a talk in conference. Now, we are out of time, but this is the precursor. This is. This is how he starts his talk, to find out what he says in his talk that causes a gigantic political disaster and gets a few people dead and in hell. You're gonna have to tune in next week when we talk about yoohoo, when we talk about the music man, when we talk about. What else could we talk about that is not in any way Germanic?

[B]

Also for Come follow me, it's the family proclamation. And so we can just state here, we think it's great and we love it. And that's, as we all know, that's 20th century. So Garrett knows nothing about it.

[A]

Yeah, for me. So if someone says something any time in the 20th century after 1950, I have no idea. I'm just like, what do you mean? Yeah, so.

[B]

So we cut out Christie's Corner. We jump straight into it.

[A]

Yeah, well, we won't, because we'll do some. Now we have been toying with. Let's get some feedback from. From the folks. We receive hundreds of emails already that we can't respond to on air, but maybe we should get even more. What are your thoughts on us doing a. Instead of a Christie's Corner, just a little bit of a JST sidebar. As we go through the Old Testament, maybe we open up with, hey, you know you're going to cover Leviticus today. Here's what Joseph had to say about this portion.

[B]

I think it's awesome, actually. I think that people are going to love it. As far as it's translated correctly.

[A]

As far as it's translated correctly. I think it's not going to be as exciting as Christie's Corner.

[B]

No, it's not. But I love the idea of, you know, Joseph's thoughts on Deuteronomy. Let's get into it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And also, we have to find some way to stem the tide of constant stake auxiliary reorganizations. Something has to be done.

[B]

Well, part of the problem is Elder Abel is now home. So my assumption is that he's been called into a bishopric immediately. Given his ascension, I assumed he went.

[A]

Immediately to a stake presidency. I assumed he got off the plane, they released him, and while he was in the High Council room they said. While we've got you here.

Elder Abel.

[B]

Please write it. Let us know.

[A]

We need to know what part of either the nursery or the stake presidency you're in. It's one of the two. So thank you so much for joining us. I know we'll wrap this up at some point. It may not be next week. There's some really cool stuff you still need to go over, and we spent too much time talking about polygamy. Really, Everyone needs to stop emailing about polygamy. That's the problem.

It's more on the listeners than it is on me at this point. So thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.