Standard of Truth Podcast

Episode: S5E52 Dead and in Hell Part 9 (and the Bee Gees)
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, with Dr. Richard Leduc
Theme: Exploring pivotal moments in early Latter-day Saint history, focusing on governmental persecution, historical memory, and a humorous detour into music obsessions

Episode Overview

In this ninth installment of the “Dead and in Hell” series, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc analyze a heated historical moment: a confrontation between Judge Perry Brocchus and Brigham Young in 1851 Utah. The conversation explores claims of persecution, responsibility of the U.S. government for Mormon suffering, and the aftermath as it spiraled into wider public controversy. The episode also features a lighthearted review of Dr. Leduc’s top music tracks of 2025—unexpectedly dominated by the Bee Gees—and fielding listener correspondence.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Anecdotes and Humor (00:45–10:13)

• Hanukkah Party Mayhem: The hosts share humorous stories from Dr. Leduc’s unexpectedly massive Hanukkah party. They joke about headcounts (“We did the count before you arrived, you see, so it’s the official count.” – Dr. Leduc, 01:52).
• Spotify Wrapped and Generational Gaps: Playful banter about the surprising contents of their streaming reports and Dr. Leduc’s efforts to “stay relevant” with the youth via his music choices.
• Leduc’s 2025 Playlist: The hosts break down Leduc’s top tracks, culminating in astonishment that “Massachusetts” by the Bee Gees was inexplicably his most played song (“It’s played over 100 times… I’ve never heard the song.” – Dr. Leduc, 08:48).
• Bee Gees Detour: Running gags about the enduring musical relevance of the Bee Gees (“Oh, the Bee Gees always do.” – Andrew, 10:02).

2. Mailbag & Listener Interactions (10:13–18:43)

• Missionary Listeners: Shout-outs to listeners serving missions, with guidance on how missionaries can access the podcast’s episodes discreetly via Google Drive.
• Fan Encounters: Humorous tales about being recognized and the bemusement of family members (“You’ve never seen anyone just stunned because their abject indifference towards me was challenged by someone else’s reality.” – Dr. Dirkmaat, 13:48).
• Memes & Calvinism: Listeners forward John Calvin memes after Dirkmaat’s frequent Calvinism references. The hosts riff on Calvinist theology and its grim holiday implications (“Everyone is on the naughty list.” – Babylon Bee meme via Rex, 16:18).

3. Historical Deep Dive: Judge Brocchus Confronts the Saints (18:41–65:53)

Judge Brocchus’ Speech (19:38–34:47)

• Brocchus, sent as a federal judge to Utah, addresses the Saints, first with praise, then quickly pivots to subtly disparaging their claims of persecution.
• Misreading the Book of Mormon: Attempts to relate Book of Mormon’s judicial system to federal pay mechanisms, but gets it subtly wrong.
• Diplomatic Missteps: Brocchus tells the Saints it is their “duty” to respect the judiciary, a statement received as paternalistic and tone-deaf.
• Denial of Persecution: Claims the U.S. government is not responsible for Mormon suffering (“The government of the United States have not injured you, although your wrongs have gone unaddressed.” – Judge Brocchus, 33:14).
• Insisting on Federal Blamelessness: Urges the Saints to seek redress from Missouri and Illinois, not Washington—seen as naive or disingenuous.

Brigham Young’s Fiery Response (41:29–49:41)

• Direct Rebuke: Young declares Brocchus to be “either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked” (42:57).
• Refusal to Whitewash Suffering: Cites hundreds buried “low in the ground,” refusing to let the Saints’ trauma be minimized or blamed on local authorities alone.
• Famous Condemnation: “We love the Constitution…but we do not love some damned rascals that profess to administer the government. I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. I can’t help it.” (44:05)
• Cultural Misunderstanding: The phrase “dead and damned” (or “in hell”) is explained as Latter-day Saint theology on temporary spiritual suffering—not an eternal curse.

Escalation & National Fallout (49:41–65:53)

• Brocchus and other officials leave Utah, then publish inflammatory claims about Latter-day Saint sedition and personal danger (“fears have been entertained for his…personal safety,” 62:04).
• Media Sensationalism: Newspapers exaggerate and fabricate details (e.g., “Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball each have…90 wives,” 63:24).
• Historical Irony: The Saints’ efforts at legal redress and loyalty to U.S. institutions are ignored; instead, Saints are portrayed as dangerous theocrats.
• Ongoing Series: Dirkmaat teases a part “9.5,” promising to follow up with further context on governmental labeling of “dead and in hell” and continued popular perceptions.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Hanukkah Attendance:
  “Our house smells like a Polish butcher shop in the 1800s.”
  — Dr. Leduc, 02:06

• On Spotify Rankings:
  “So at that point, all flexing ended. Yeah, no one even posted again after that.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat, 04:06

• Surprise at “Massachusetts”:
  “It’s played. It’s over 100 times that it played. I’ve never heard the song. Not familiar with it.”
  — Dr. Leduc, 08:48

• Opening Salvo in Debate:
  “I feel obliged to say a few words in reply to Judge Brocas…he is either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked.”
  — Brigham Young (read by Dr. Dirkmaat), 42:57

• Summing Up Betrayal:
  “The government of the United States looked on and seen the robbing and driving of these people, and they said nothing about it.”
  — Brigham Young, 43:11

• Defining “Damned” in Context:
  “For Latter Day Saints, damnation is a very different thing than it is for other Christians…we don’t believe that damnation is forever.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat, 49:41

• Media Outrage:
  “Revolutionary outbreak in Utah is what it’s called…The Mormons are not more remarkable for their extraordinary religion than they are for a seditious and turbulent spirit.”
  — Reading from 19th-century newspaper, 55:02

Memorable Humor & Analogies

• Visiting Ward Etiquette:
  “If you’re visiting a ward and you find yourself commenting more than five times, it’s time to dial it back.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat, 49:35

• On Losing Religious Arguments:
  “If you ever feel like you’re losing the argument, that’s when it’s very important to list out the number of wives that are had.”
  — Dr. Leduc, 63:40

• On Calvinism and Christmas:
  “Everyone is on the naughty list.”
  — Rex, via Babylon Bee, 16:18

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Hanukkah Party & Holiday Humor: 00:45–03:17
• Music/Bee Gees Detour: 05:33–10:13
• Calvinism & Meme Mailbag: 15:50–18:43
• Historical Context & Judge Brocchus Speech: 19:38–34:47
• Brigham Young’s Response: 41:29–49:41
• Outsider Perceptions & Aftermath: 55:02–65:53

Conclusion

This episode weaves sharp historical analysis with good-natured banter and self-deprecating humor. Listeners are given fresh perspective on the intense 1851 clashes between Mormon settlers and U.S. officials, while the lighter moments—Bee Gees, bluegrass, memes—keep the tone lively and accessible. Above all, the hosts underscore how history, memory, and identity remain hotly contested, inside and outside of faith communities.