S5E52 Dead and in Hell Part 9 (and the Bee Gees)

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast

Episode: S5E52 Dead and in Hell Part 9 (and the Bee Gees)
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, with Dr. Richard Leduc
Theme: Exploring pivotal moments in early Latter-day Saint history, focusing on governmental persecution, historical memory, and a humorous detour into music obsessions

---

Episode Overview

In this ninth installment of the “Dead and in Hell” series, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc analyze a heated historical moment: a confrontation between Judge Perry Brocchus and Brigham Young in 1851 Utah. The conversation explores claims of persecution, responsibility of the U.S. government for Mormon suffering, and the aftermath as it spiraled into wider public controversy. The episode also features a lighthearted review of Dr. Leduc’s top music tracks of 2025—unexpectedly dominated by the Bee Gees—and fielding listener correspondence.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Anecdotes and Humor (00:45–10:13)

• Hanukkah Party Mayhem: The hosts share humorous stories from Dr. Leduc’s unexpectedly massive Hanukkah party. They joke about headcounts (“We did the count before you arrived, you see, so it’s the official count.” – Dr. Leduc, 01:52).
• Spotify Wrapped and Generational Gaps: Playful banter about the surprising contents of their streaming reports and Dr. Leduc’s efforts to “stay relevant” with the youth via his music choices.
• Leduc’s 2025 Playlist: The hosts break down Leduc’s top tracks, culminating in astonishment that “Massachusetts” by the Bee Gees was inexplicably his most played song (“It’s played over 100 times… I’ve never heard the song.” – Dr. Leduc, 08:48).
• Bee Gees Detour: Running gags about the enduring musical relevance of the Bee Gees (“Oh, the Bee Gees always do.” – Andrew, 10:02).

2. Mailbag & Listener Interactions (10:13–18:43)

• Missionary Listeners: Shout-outs to listeners serving missions, with guidance on how missionaries can access the podcast’s episodes discreetly via Google Drive.
• Fan Encounters: Humorous tales about being recognized and the bemusement of family members (“You’ve never seen anyone just stunned because their abject indifference towards me was challenged by someone else’s reality.” – Dr. Dirkmaat, 13:48).
• Memes & Calvinism: Listeners forward John Calvin memes after Dirkmaat’s frequent Calvinism references. The hosts riff on Calvinist theology and its grim holiday implications (“Everyone is on the naughty list.” – Babylon Bee meme via Rex, 16:18).

3. Historical Deep Dive: Judge Brocchus Confronts the Saints (18:41–65:53)

Judge Brocchus’ Speech (19:38–34:47)

• Brocchus, sent as a federal judge to Utah, addresses the Saints, first with praise, then quickly pivots to subtly disparaging their claims of persecution.
• Misreading the Book of Mormon: Attempts to relate Book of Mormon’s judicial system to federal pay mechanisms, but gets it subtly wrong.
• Diplomatic Missteps: Brocchus tells the Saints it is their “duty” to respect the judiciary, a statement received as paternalistic and tone-deaf.
• Denial of Persecution: Claims the U.S. government is not responsible for Mormon suffering (“The government of the United States have not injured you, although your wrongs have gone unaddressed.” – Judge Brocchus, 33:14).
• Insisting on Federal Blamelessness: Urges the Saints to seek redress from Missouri and Illinois, not Washington—seen as naive or disingenuous.

Brigham Young’s Fiery Response (41:29–49:41)

• Direct Rebuke: Young declares Brocchus to be “either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked” (42:57).
• Refusal to Whitewash Suffering: Cites hundreds buried “low in the ground,” refusing to let the Saints’ trauma be minimized or blamed on local authorities alone.
• Famous Condemnation: “We love the Constitution…but we do not love some damned rascals that profess to administer the government. I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. I can’t help it.” (44:05)
• Cultural Misunderstanding: The phrase “dead and damned” (or “in hell”) is explained as Latter-day Saint theology on temporary spiritual suffering—not an eternal curse.

Escalation & National Fallout (49:41–65:53)

• Brocchus and other officials leave Utah, then publish inflammatory claims about Latter-day Saint sedition and personal danger (“fears have been entertained for his…personal safety,” 62:04).
• Media Sensationalism: Newspapers exaggerate and fabricate details (e.g., “Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball each have…90 wives,” 63:24).
• Historical Irony: The Saints’ efforts at legal redress and loyalty to U.S. institutions are ignored; instead, Saints are portrayed as dangerous theocrats.
• Ongoing Series: Dirkmaat teases a part “9.5,” promising to follow up with further context on governmental labeling of “dead and in hell” and continued popular perceptions.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Hanukkah Attendance:
  “Our house smells like a Polish butcher shop in the 1800s.”
  — Dr. Leduc, 02:06

• On Spotify Rankings:
  “So at that point, all flexing ended. Yeah, no one even posted again after that.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat, 04:06

• Surprise at “Massachusetts”:
  “It’s played. It’s over 100 times that it played. I’ve never heard the song. Not familiar with it.”
  — Dr. Leduc, 08:48

• Opening Salvo in Debate:
  “I feel obliged to say a few words in reply to Judge Brocas…he is either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked.”
  — Brigham Young (read by Dr. Dirkmaat), 42:57

• Summing Up Betrayal:
  “The government of the United States looked on and seen the robbing and driving of these people, and they said nothing about it.”
  — Brigham Young, 43:11

• Defining “Damned” in Context:
  “For Latter Day Saints, damnation is a very different thing than it is for other Christians…we don’t believe that damnation is forever.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat, 49:41

• Media Outrage:
  “Revolutionary outbreak in Utah is what it’s called…The Mormons are not more remarkable for their extraordinary religion than they are for a seditious and turbulent spirit.”
  — Reading from 19th-century newspaper, 55:02

---

Memorable Humor & Analogies

• Visiting Ward Etiquette:
  “If you’re visiting a ward and you find yourself commenting more than five times, it’s time to dial it back.”
  — Dr. Dirkmaat, 49:35

• On Losing Religious Arguments:
  “If you ever feel like you’re losing the argument, that’s when it’s very important to list out the number of wives that are had.”
  — Dr. Leduc, 63:40

• On Calvinism and Christmas:
  “Everyone is on the naughty list.”
  — Rex, via Babylon Bee, 16:18

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Hanukkah Party & Holiday Humor: 00:45–03:17
• Music/Bee Gees Detour: 05:33–10:13
• Calvinism & Meme Mailbag: 15:50–18:43
• Historical Context & Judge Brocchus Speech: 19:38–34:47
• Brigham Young’s Response: 41:29–49:41
• Outsider Perceptions & Aftermath: 55:02–65:53

---

Conclusion

This episode weaves sharp historical analysis with good-natured banter and self-deprecating humor. Listeners are given fresh perspective on the intense 1851 clashes between Mormon settlers and U.S. officials, while the lighter moments—Bee Gees, bluegrass, memes—keep the tone lively and accessible. Above all, the hosts underscore how history, memory, and identity remain hotly contested, inside and outside of faith communities.

Transcript

[Podcast Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[Andrew]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. And happy Hanukkah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes, Richard had his annual Hanukkah party just last night, in fact.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did. I did. It was a great time for Kith and Ken.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I like the fact that Richard once told me that there were going to be a couple dozen people there. And I showed up and there were Angie and I, legitimately, as we pulled into the parking lot, had a conversation. Do you think they're having it at a different church? Because this looks like a ward party? Because there were dozens and dozens of cars in the parking lot. So then I'm thinking, well, maybe they're.

[Andrew]

Doing like something in the chapel at the same time that they're doing something in the gym.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nope. It was Richard's Hanukkah party, and it.

[Andrew]

Was with, I think, 100 more people than he anticipated.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was. We had, I think, in total, 159 people. Not counting you or the hunts or a couple other people.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why do I not count?

[Andrew]

I don't understand.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We, Andrew, just.

[Andrew]

We don't rate.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We did the count before you arrived. You see, so it's the official count. So what was funny about was great. It was a lot of fun. And we have, you know, we have all these kids and they invited a bunch of friends. And the. The challenge always is, Garrett, that you say, you know, my wife and I say to our kids, okay, how many people have you invited? A couple of people. Okay, how many people do you think are going to come? Two or three people. Okay. Because we are going to be preparing. I smell. I smell like onions. It's leaking out of my pores. The amount of latkes that I had to make. And so for like, we expected 30 people. And so we made. We made 150 latkes, as you're want to do. And so anyway, our house smells like a Polish butcher shop in the 1800s, you know, but we had more than that. And it was a lot of folks and it was a lot of fun. And Hanukkah's a good, a good time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There was some aggressive dreidel playing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Let me just say that it was. There was some aggressive dreidel playing and it was fun. And we did a nice Jewish trivia for cash prizes. It was a good time. It was so nice of you to come up to see us. You said that you were in Draper and you're like, well, we're almost there.

[Andrew]

All the way across Salt Lake Valley and up into Davis County. We were basically in the neighborhood.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So as the year winds down, had a whole bunch of people send us their, their number of minutes listen to on Spotify. And they're very impressive. Some people, I mean, and I like how, you know, they like to flex with one another. Like some person's like, I'm in the.

[Andrew]

Top 5% of listeners.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then someone responds to that and they're like, I'm in the top 2%. And then I'm pretty sure Lindsay, she. She's in the top 0.5%.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Pretty good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So at that point, all flexing ended. Yeah, no one, no one even posted again after that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it's pretty good. And so I thought it would be fun here to talk about kind of our, our rap. The problem is, is that you're, you have a family account and so, yes, all of the stuff that your family listens to, not necessarily Amazon music.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. So when I got my report in quotes from Amazon Music of what we listen to most, nothing on that list is anything that I ever listened to, nor Angie. But I have teenage boys and so it's what they listen to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. A lot of Tabernacle choir.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh yeah. So much bluegrass.

[Andrew]

It's bluegrass, it's. There's a little bit of waltz music. It's, you know, what you'd expect from your typical 17 and 14 year old boys.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I'm often people say to me, richard, how are you so hip to the kids? How do you stay so relevant?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, we get that emailed in so often.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So often, so often as you go blind, how is it that you're still able to connect with the youth in such a dynamic way? So my entire family uses Spotify, but I use Apple. And so we were able to, able to, you know, to say, okay, well this is mine. And it's really just mine. And so I thought, I thought I'd go through a couple and get your thoughts on mine.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm excited. How many do you have on your list?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so I have, I have my top 10 here. And so these are the top 10 songs that I listened to in 2025, starting at number 10, Nessen Duorma by Pavarotti. Number 10.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, how cultured of you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, how very cultured of me.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Number eight. I like. I like that you pretend that you are cultured.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's good. So I was skipping around a little bit. Number eight is stick Season. I do like that song. Yeah. You know, Season of the Sticks. Yeah, that one's pretty good. I'll just give my top five here. Number five, the theme from Schindler's List. Now, that one was. That one caught me off guard. I did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think that's a depressing one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But so often when I'm listening to music I don't listen to, so I watch a lot of. I listen to a lot of YouTube or watch a lot of YouTube, and it's a lot of fairly boring lectures or it's mostly. It's all just Clayton Christensen all the time.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So plus, you listen to this podcast. I don't, actually. Oh, okay. Well, that explains a lot, actually.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So usually I'll listen to music when I'm working or I'm doing research or I'm doing some things. And so I think that the theme from Schindler's List, although haunting, is something that is. Yeah, it's beautiful. Okay. Number four. I was impressed with this savior, redeemer of my soul. I was like, oh, beautiful.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I love that song.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Number three, one day more from Les Mis.

[Andrew]

Oh, I love that song.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And that's also a good, like, hype you up song. When you're. When you've got a deadline.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is true.

[Andrew]

I've got one more day to get this in.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's also the alarm on my phone every morning, so I feel like that's cheating a little bit. So it's one day more. It's a joke for myself. Number two. Now, this is. I feel like this is important. So I love my wife very much. She's wonderful. She is the wind beneath my wings.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Was that the song?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's not. That would be funny if it was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, if it was BETTE MIDLER At 2, you and I'd be having a conversation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, just wait for my number one. So the number two is every time I set an alarm on my phone to go do something that my wife wants me to do, some errand or whatever, the song I have is, I'll go where you want me to go. Is the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's funny.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, I think it's funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's funny. Does Becky find It funny.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know. I hope she does because I mean it with all love, and I'm. I am legitimately whatever you want me to do, wherever you want me to go. My number one by a lot, though, by the way, any guess.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it music?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is a. This is a popular song. Not necessarily of this time period. If you had a month of Sundays, you'll never guess this song ever.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm going to say Sink the Bismarck by Johnny Horton.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's Massachusetts by the Bee Gees now.

[Andrew]

Wow. I've.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I've never heard that song. I have no idea how that song.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You've never heard the song?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I've heard the song since I've seen this. I'm like, wait, what's that song? And then I played it and I'm like, going to Mass. How is that possible? I have no idea. I now, when I travel with my family, I put together a playlist that names all of the states or places that we're going as an annoying playlist that we. That we listen to. But I didn't go to Massachusetts this year. This certainly would have been that if I made that. It's. It's played. It's. It's over 100 times that it played. I've never heard the song. Not familiar with it. Now I am now familiar with.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Someone has stolen one of your Apple devices, and they only listen to Massachusetts on repeat by the Bee.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what I'm alleging. That's apparently what I have to allege. And it actually is at this point point that I'm realizing that our entire criminal justice system might be a fraud and no one is actually guilty of anything, because I certainly have not listened to Massachusetts by the Bee Gees.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like this is how you try to plant doubt for when you get arrested for some kind of embezzlement next week. I don't know.

[Andrew]

I wasn't playing Massachusetts.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Someone else had my phone.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'll listen. I'll tell you this. You know what kind of still slaps, you know, Matt.

[Andrew]

Oh, the Bee Gees. Always do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Always do. We'll end this episode going out with a little excerpt of Massachusetts.

[Andrew]

Okay. Yeah. And then that'll push you to even.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Higher in the rankings. The year's not over yet.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so now we do not have a Christie's Corner this week because it's from the 20th century. We both believe in families and the eternal nature of families, but Garrett only knows about things from the 1800s. And so we'll go straight to Phoebe.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Draper Palmer Brown's mailbag, who also believed in eternal family.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She also does family proclamation is the Come follow me. This week this first email comes to us from Elder Gaynor. I just want to say thank you for making this podcast. I'm a Spanish speaking missionary in Suriname right now in the Guyana Georgetown Mission. Your mom and dad served in Suriname. Was that the mission?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Suriname? Yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Was this the mission?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So the mission kind of bounces around, but yes, it would have been that mission. Yep.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Very cool. And I've learned for a little while.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was attached to the Caribbean mission. Right. So, you know, they kind of get moved around.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But yeah, I've learned so much from you guys. It's always so much fun to listen to all the random tangents. I can't think of any that we've ever done. I don't have any questions. Just wanted to say thank you for all that you do. I definitely realize on my mission how beautiful and simple the gospel is. And it's such an amazing experience seeing the changes in people's lives as they choose to be baptized, to make a covenant with Christ. Keep up the good work, Elder Gaynor. And we have one other. That's very nice. Thank you, Elder Gaynor. And we have one more here. You were talking actually at the, at the Hanukkah party to a return missionary who talked about how he couldn't listen to the podcast. And then you explained, oh no, we add your email to a Google Drive and that allows you to listen to it. And he said, if I had only known, he actually, yeah, he was like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I wouldn't have come home early off from my mission and despondency.

[Andrew]

If only I would have known, I could have accessed the Standard of Truth podcast on a Google Drive.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wow. So it was at the time it would have been as a missionary, Elder Arbuckle. And he's like, he, he said, hey, I noticed somebody there that looks like Garrett dirkmod. I'm like, yeah, that. That is Garrett Dirkmot. And he's like, how do you know Garrett Dirkmot? And I'm like, you know, we went to school 25 years ago.

[Andrew]

Clearly doesn't listen to the podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, he knows you can follow him, which is the much better of the podcast.

[Andrew]

It's true.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I had the similar experience at the Casa de Salsa.

[Andrew]

Which if you're wondering.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is a house of salsa.

[Andrew]

If you're.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What?

[Andrew]

If you're wondering.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, for those non Spanish speakers here. Yes.

[Andrew]

Yeah. For all those of you who are gringos, it is a house of salsa. It's just a little restaurant in Spanish.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Fork and Angie's dad and her sister and, you know, some of my nieces and nephews, he had to come down here for a minute. And so we all went over there for lunch. And while we were there eating, a very kind woman and her daughter came up and said, oh, are you Garrett Dirkmaat? And we talked for a minute. And of course I knew they'd seen me. It'd been on Follow him because they have videos and it's good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And it's good because people listen to it. But the best part was, you know, so I got up and talked to him, and we got a picture. Picture together and stuff. The best part always is just seeing how stunned Angie's dad is that anybody could.

[Andrew]

Could possibly care who I am at all. You've never. I mean, you. You've never seen anyone just stunned because their abject indifference towards me was challenged by someone else's reality. Why? What? Why. Why are they talking to you?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, it's, you know, because I've been on the podcast and, like, so. So they think you're a big deal. I mean, I don't know. I mean, they wanted to meet me, like, so. So why do they think you're important? I'm not. I'm not important. It's hard to respond, you know, to father in law's inquiry.

[Podcast Narrator]

No, no.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It happens to me all the time. That's why I can't go to Khalsa. Khalsa de Salsa?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, you can't go to Khalsa or really anywhere because you're just mobbed.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Just mobbed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

People will just come running up to him and they'll say, I have an idea about implied referrals. Aren't you the guy? And he says, I am the guy. But then they want him to give consulting for free. It's just a lot. It's a lot. But we thank all of our listeners, and I think the point of that little interlude was to say for missionaries, if you want your missionaries, or if you're a missionary and you want to have access to this on your mission, provided that your mission president says it's okay to listen to you just need to email the podcast with your missionary email, and then we'll add you eventually.

[Andrew]

To the Google Drive and you'll have access to it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In fairness, Khalsa in Spanish is calm. So.

[Andrew]

Salsa is like super mild salsa.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The mildest.

[Andrew]

It's the most vanilla salsa.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nobody's excited about it.

[Andrew]

There's no flavor.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's Just tomatoes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it's just. It's like a single tomato that you put. We do have one more email. This comes from Rachel's mom's husband, Rex.

[Andrew]

We're gonna.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We're gonna give him a Rex.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. He sent. He forwarded over an image from Babylon Be, which is hilarious. They've got great memes from time to time. Whenever I see this, my thoughts immediately are directed to Garrett's reference to Calvinism. I have been brainwashed in a good way. Merry Christmas to all. And it's a. It's a picture of. Of John Calvin dressed in more of a Santa Claus attire. And it says, everyone is on the naughty list.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And. And you know the funny part about that?

[Andrew]

I got.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I received a ton of memes. I apparently talk about Calvinism a lot on the show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You do?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because I've received dozens of emails and texts from people with Calvin Santa memes.

[Andrew]

That in one way or another, everyone's naughty. No one's good. No one deserves any presence.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The interesting thing about that is we've talked about this before, is that, you know, Calvinists, you know, it really is their starting point, the total depravity of mankind that everyone deserves to go to hell. And so, of course, everyone is on the naughty list. But also, as it relates to Christmas, the Calvinists tried to ban Christmas everywhere they were because Christmas was a Catholic high holy day, you know, and so in England, when the Calvinists took over.

[Andrew]

They tried to ban Christmas. In Massachusetts, they tried to ban Christmas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

When the Puritans took over, when they had their ability to do so. I mean, they aren't ever successful because culturally, everyone wants to celebrate Christmas. Right? It's like the one person in your neighborhood that's like, this year, I don't think anyone should give any gifts to anyone at all. We should just all buy a goat for someone in Africa, which is a beautiful sentiment, and it'd be great if we all just bought goats for people in Africa. But I think we're all well aware that people are still going to do Christmas. In fact, we actually tried as a neighborhood. We're like, you know, we're spending all this money buying gifts for people. You know, here's a neighborhood gift. And, you know, little gift. Here's. Here's this, here's that. Whatever. Why don't we just take all that money that we would have spent on giving each other neighborhood little gifts and we'll donate it to charity? So we did that that year. We pulled together some money. We donated the money to charity. And guess what happened? Everybody still just went around and gave.

[Andrew]

Everybody neighborhood gifts anyway, so it actually made no difference.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it was like, you know, instead.

[Andrew]

Of giving neighborhood gifts.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And the best part was one of the people whose idea it was, they gave a neighborhood gift. Like, well, I felt bad not giving the neighborhood gift. It's like, well, this was your idea. Anyway, I digress. But it is very funny with Calvin and Santa.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, indeed. Well, so now, Garrett, without any. Without further ado, on to Dead and in Hell, part nine, likely the last installment of Dead and Hell.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, no, no, no.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, boy. Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I don't. I mean, how. How far do you want to understand what's going on?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think. I think you could just say Zachary Taylor, and then we play the music and we're out.

[Andrew]

But the music we would play would be Massachusetts by the Bee Gees, correct?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's correct.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

People didn't know this. Zachary Taylor's favorite song.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, Zachary Taylor.

[Andrew]

And he loved Massachusetts, you know, being from the South. Like, he was super big Massachusetts fan, living in Louisiana. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We had gotten to the point of the speech where.

[Andrew]

Perry Brocas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Judge Brocas, was kind of the Lyle Langley of the day, kind of phrasing.

[Andrew]

All the people there, but he's getting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Ready to drop the hammer, right? And so he says this. He talks about, oh, you've lavished such kindness on me. The Latter Day Saints have lavished their kindness on me, and they are entitled to my most everlasting gratitude. I appear before you this morning, not in my official capacity, but as a fellow citizen, to address Asanas, which is funny because he literally said to Brigham Young, in my official capacity, I want to address everyone to ask for the Washington Monument. And then, you know, for rhetorical purposes, he then tells everyone, I'm just here because I'm a lover of the country the way you are. Don't even think of me as being an Associate justice of the Supreme Court, except also always reference me as Associate justice of the Supreme Court, Brocus. But don't even think of. Just think of me as being a regular guy. Anyway, I, with my associates, are come here as judges of the Supreme Court, but not hoping that lawsuits would be amongst your people, nor to set your people to wrangling that we may be a long, flowery opinion in verbose language of the law.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nothing you would do would be verbose. Perry Brocas, we have heard of your manner of litigation. It is peaceful. You live in fellowship and peace and love. You submit to the tribunal of your choice. I say God grant the time that may come that all of this vast country may have such tribunals, for.

[Andrew]

They.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Bring peace to the country and to the litigants. When your cause is before a tribunal of your own choice, you feel an acquiescence in the decision. But the courts of law are not always so. In the Book of Mosiah. Now, again, we talked about how he's going hard on Book of Mormon. Okay? In the Book of Mosiah, you read that in the days of Alma, a man would be appointed judges of law, and they were paid for their time that they sat and that they judged cases. We have no such incitement to induce you to go to law. We are paid by the United States a compensation by the year and not by the number of trials we have. Now, here's an example of where he doesn't know what he's talking about, and so he thinks he's being relatable, but he's actually making a subtle dig at the Book of Mormon. But I don't think he intends to here. I think, clumsily, not having read it at all. He read the Book of Mormon as meaning judges only got paid for every case that came before them. And so, you know, the natural, you know, 19th century American mind would be, well, we need to have a whole.

[Andrew]

Bunch of cases go before the court so that we could. We could get some money. When the point of the Book of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Mormon is, look, these people were. They had other jobs. They weren't living off of the fact that they were a judge. The entire point in the Book of Mormon is these people aren't living off of the fact that they have this power.

[Andrew]

And Brocas uses it the opposite to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Say, you know, unlike those people, I'm getting paid an annual salary. Now, that's literally the opposite of what they were trying to say. They don't want people paid an annual salary for it. But his point is, I'm not being paid per case, so I won't be trying to incite anyone into going to court with one another, because I'm not. You know, Brocas isn't chasing down the equivalent of a stagecoach ambulance trying to.

[Andrew]

Get someone to sue so that he.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Can collect some court fees. That's what he's trying to get across. I think it is your duty to stand by your judiciary, to protect it and preserve it in its public sentiments and estimation. So notice that's kind of a weird thing to say. It's all of your duty to support us as your judges. Kind of weird to say, like, do you think that we wouldn't support you? Like, where is this coming from? I mean, it would be weird if when Richard and I got on this podcast, I started by saying, you know.

[Andrew]

Richard, it's your duty to not embezzle from the company.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, first of all, obviously.

[Andrew]

But second of all, wouldn't that be kind of odd?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like, be a weird way to say it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why exactly do you say that?

[Andrew]

No, no reason. Just. Just throwing it out there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, like the person who's telling you what they want for Christmas without telling you what they want for Christmas. That's kind of like what It's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I shall soon leave my brethren of the bench and shall regret the dissolution of my association with this people. And I may never again see your mountain city or your fruitful vales or this generous people while I am in your presence. I have to repel and I have to repel and an insinuation that has been laid upon me. It is said that I came in your midst expecting to be returned as a delegate to Congress. The first step that a man must take to become a candidate for a virtuous, reputable, and thinking people is to obtain their confidence. So he's already responding to rumors that he's electioneering, and those rumors start with him because it's what he's saying to the group he's crossing the plains with is that I'm going to leverage this into becoming a congressman or a senator. So he's responding to rumors that exist.

[Andrew]

Because he said the things that are.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In the rumors, which is kind of funny, given that the entire point of the speech is to attack Brigham Young for what Brigham Young supposedly said.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is a hearsay thing. I have said that if the people of this territory were to send any other person.

[Andrew]

Of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Of their preference, of their. Of their own people, and if they were to send me, I have said I might have been able to do you good. Right. So essentially, I only said that if you were to send me, it would benefit you greatly. I. I didn't say you should. I just, you know, I mean, if you force me to. If you put my arm behind my back and march me to the halls of Congress, I. I guess I would. I wouldn't want to, but he's not exactly coming off like the great Cincinnatus Washington. You know, I think everyone in the audience, like he had. None of us. None of us were concerned that we.

[Andrew]

Were accidentally going to elect you to Congress.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That was not.

[Andrew]

None of us came here today. Like, boy, I hope we don't send.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Brocas, because we know he doesn't want to go anyway. I have been honored by the executive of this Republic, the President of the United States, with the office in this organization of the territory. And it would be. It would be not behoove a man to choose a man unless he was an honorable man. Now he's trying to point out how. How special he is because Millard Fillmore, who appointed him, is a Whig and Brocus is a Democrat. I was a Democrat of opposite politics to President Fillmore, and yet I was appointed by Millard Fillmore, a man whom you all respect, to fill this post. I want the respect of the people, and I will have it if I can obtain it by any honorable means. There is another reason of my visit before you, which is that to fill a national pride, I've been commissioned by a board of managers of the national monument to ask this territory for a block of marble for that great and stupendous monument and to read a letter to them from the board of managers. Okay, so he does get to the point of, look, we need to get a block for the Washington Monument. And he has. Thomas Bullock reads the letter, and then Brocas gets back up.

[Andrew]

He's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He. He talks a little bit about what life is like in Washington, about. Sorry. About what Washington's life was like and what he did. And then Brocas then read an extract of an oration delivered by Daniel H.

[Andrew]

Wells on 24 July in regard to the Mormon Battalion. And for those who've been wondering, when.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Does this get good? It just got it. And he said that the government of the United States did not make any imperative demand for 500 men, but they asked for the voluntary services of men, and that the person who made the demand transcended the bounds of authority. And I want to defend the United States from that censure. I disapprove of the sentiment and charge. I admire the diction and the language of the orator. But no, Polk expressed his decided disapprobation of the scenes of persecution that took place in Missouri and Illinois. They roused my indignation and my abhorrence and also the abhorrence of the people who lived in the same section as I did. And I believe the mass of the people boiled with rage at the report of those scenes in Missouri. Now, already at this point, what do you think someone like Amanda Barnes Smith, whose husband was murdered in Missouri, her child was murdered in Missouri and her other child maimed for life in Missouri, what do you think she's thinking, as this blowhard goes on, about just how raging the people of the United States were against the violence that took place against them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think she would be pretty frustrated with that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah. Again, this is not 1867. This is 1851. Almost everyone who is in Utah territory at this point is someone who, at the very least, experienced the persecution in Nauvoo, where they were driven out violently. And let's remember just a couple years earlier, while the last vestiges of Saints are trying to get out, mobs attack and kill people as they're trying to get out. And no one's put on trial, no governor stops anybody. What Brocas is doing. And he doesn't realize the hornet's nest he's kicked yet. Trying to claim that James Polk was horrified at what happened to the Mormons, even though he didn't do a single thing to stop the treatment of the Mormons, even though he refused to allow Utah to become a territory, is. This is not a good argument to make.

[Andrew]

It would.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It would be like trying to convince, you know, somebody you've ever been in. The situation where you have a mutual friend or a mutual acquaintance of somebody, and you've got nothing but good things to say about this person, but the other person you're talking to was fired by them at a job, and so they don't like that person. Right. And you want to be loyal to your friend, but there's only so much you can say before you're about to lose a second friend.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, you don't understand. He really is, like, a really good guy. Yeah, he's so great. He's so great. He lied to me about my bonus and then fired me. And then even after he told me that he was going to keep me on. Yeah, it's. What an amazing guy. If he was any more honest, I mean, he'd probably become Abraham Lincoln himself. It's crazy. You know, you can only go so far trying to defend the honor of someone who has done something to someone else, because you're not going to convince someone whose house was burned down in Missouri or whose dad was shot in Yell Room in Illinois. You're not going to convince them. There wasn't really any persecution.

[Andrew]

You guys. Come on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, come on. Or you're not going to convince them. Yes, there was persecution. It's just everyone was so upset. You have. You have no idea. Everyone was so upset. So upset that they tried to stop it. Well, not that upset. I mean, that's. I mean, come on can't be.

[Andrew]

What, what do you want, people, what do you, what do you expect people to do? I mean, they're not going to lose their jobs over this. Uh huh, exactly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So boiling with rage is the terminology uses, really. So brocus continues. The government in the United States have not injured you. Now that sentence alone is going to cause problems. The government of the United States have not injured you, although your wrongs have gone unaddressed. Missouri is the place to redress your wrongs. And Illinois also. The President of the United States has not the right to, to communicate private wrongs in his message to Congress. Really. He doesn't have the right to tell Congress of horrible things that are happening. I'm just going to go back and say he absolutely does it all of the time. In fact, in fact, almost every presidential address addresses something where someone is aggrieved because of something that's been done or not done in the government. So you can already feel tensions are rising. Right. He's trying to tell the Latter Day Saints that they're wrong to be upset about losing people, about losing homes, about losing farms and about being abandoned by the United States government. That's a tough sell. It's a tough sell to try to convince people. I know you went through it, but it was fine.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This, this was, this was the argument though that was being made. Right. Is that the, you had a. I mean, we have a far weaker federal government at that time than we do now. Like now, now it's a really easy, why didn't the US Government do more? But you're saying that while that might have been the argument, it rang hollow because they still did stuff all of the time to impose their will on state.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And to say things like, well, the federal government can't intervene. Well, except when it does.

[Andrew]

Right. I mean the argument that the federal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Government can't intervene even though it intervened all the time when it felt like it. Right. Ask the Cherokee whether or not the federal government can intervene in a state matter and yeah, they'll intervene. They'll intervene on the side of the states in order to allow the Cherokee to be driven on the Trail of Tears. So it's true that our government is not designed the same way, but I think it's a pretty big overstatement for people to say there's no possible way for the federal government to have gotten involved. Because the federal government does get involved when it wants to. And when it wants to just doesn't so happen to be. When it's Mormons that are being killed, then it doesn't want to. And frankly, when it comes to Polk, the Latter Day Saints, regardless of how the battalion was called, the Latter Day Saints discerned from polka that he had disingenuous purposes and they were 100% right. Now they discern that because he wasn't letting them stay on the land that he told them he could stay on in winter quarters, he wasn't allowing Utah to become a territory. He said he wouldn't appoint any Latter Day Saints to the territorial office. I mean, there's lots of evidence that James Polk is not Captain Friend of the Mormons. It's not just, how could I possibly arrest people that were murdering people in Illinois? And beyond that the federal government could have intervened whenever it wanted to because multiple of these violent acts took place across state boundaries. Right when Joe's is being kidnapped and drug across, you know, Missouri. I mean, when Latter Day Saints are being driven across the state, the federal government had the ability to act. It just didn't want to. So playing the. We just, ah, shucks, we just couldn't do anything about it, concern it. It's just not going to, it's not going to fly. And it's especially not going to fly for people who've watched these scenes of violence play out, who've experienced them. So government of the United States hasn't injured you. The President doesn't have the right to talk about it. They will ultimately ascertain that they have power and they will give you redress for all your wrongs. So he then tells them, if only you will appeal to Missouri and Illinois, they will ultimately ascertain that they have the power and they will give you redress for all your wrongs. To tell a Mormon who's been asking that their stolen property and the people murdered in Missouri be given back to them and compensated to them for the past 13 years to just say what? Why don't you guys just, like, ask? I mean, you guys haven't even asked Missouri or so why, why don't you just like tell Illinois that it's like not okay to steal all your property? It's. I don't know at this point whether Brocas is pompously stupid and he just thinks he knows what's going on, you know, because he read a couple passages in the Book of Mormon or he is deliberately saying something that he knows he can't possibly believe if he is a politician in the know at all, that the Mormons are going to be given money by Missouri or Illinois for the violence. That took against them. He can't possibly believe that. But he just said that to them. He just said, you know, you guys just gotta. Just gotta petition Missouri and you'll have redress for all your wrongs. I have regretted to hear an expression by a very great person that the US Were a stink in the nostrils, in God's nostrils. Yet another of your society says that it is one of the greatest governments in the valleys, that. That it's productive rivers, men and beautiful women, and that its political institutions and great are great and everything that can make it great. I was deeply pained to hear a member of the company that came along with me while on the planes say that the government of the United States was going to hell as fast as it could. General Taylor may have had his errors and may have expressed strong feelings against the Latter Day Saints, but essentially. But that's not warrant. Friends and fellow citizens, I shall always remember my gratitude with gratitude, my interview with the Latter Day Saints in the valley of the mountains with respect. And then it kind of trails off. You lose a little bit there. So here he said someone while he was traveling across the plains said, you know, that the United States was a stink in the nostrils of the. Of God because of what it had done. So Brigham Young gets up after him. Now, Brigham Young has.

[Andrew]

He's been.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He's been monorailed here.

[Andrew]

He's been sideswiped because he was told.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The purpose of this speech was Brocus was going to get up, talk about how great General Washington is, and then say, we need a marble block donated by Utah Territory, and he wanted people to raise money for it. Well, that's not what Brocas did. Brocus got up and told everyone that they were wrong to have a problem with the federal government. They were wrong to believe that they'd been wrong. They were wrong to not like Polk. They were wrong to not like Taylor. And they were wrong to say that the United States government was going to face the judgments of God. President Young arose and said, I feel obliged to say a few words in reply to Judge Brocas and what he has said. And I must say, and if you're looking for a great Brigham Young line, this is the one to share in high priest group. I must say he is either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked. One of the two. There are several gentlemen who would be very glad to prove the statements that have been made about Judge Brocas. The government of the United States have looked on and seen the robbing and the driving of this people, and they have said nothing. About it. Now, here's part of Brigham Young's point. Show me where the federal government even expressed concern that Mormon, that American citizens were being murdered and driven off of their property, which in some cases, they bought from the federal government.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, I mean, that is probably the fairest of points. All right, so let's say that the federal government can do nothing. You didn't even say anything.

[Andrew]

Yep.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's fine. It's fine to do nothing. But why don't you, as president, give a speech where you say, I call upon the citizens of Missouri to leave the Mormons alone? You didn't even do that. So you not only didn't use your power, you didn't even use your rhetoric. And trying to convince people that a politician can't talk about something is a pretty poor thing to try to convince something. Because if there's one thing a politician always has the ability to do, and that's talk about everything, as Judge Brocas was demonstrating here, he can talk about all kinds of things. So Brigham Young's point. He's either profoundly ignorant or willfully wicked. The government of the United States looked on and seen the robbing and driving of these people, and they said nothing about it. I will not say anything about the men who have been killed, but I will say that there are hundreds of women and children that have been laid.

[Andrew]

Low.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In the ground. Again, about General Washington. He was not dandled in the cradle of ease. He was raised in a hearty, backwoods life. He's responding now because apparently what Brocas made it sound like is that Washington was some kind of refined gentleman, and Brigham Young's taking issue with that. That, you know, guys out, you know, cutting his way through the Virginia wilderness. It was God that dictated to Washington and guided him through his life, and it is he who guided and leads this people. We love the government. We love the Constitution, but we do not love some damned rascals that profess to administer the government. I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. I can't help it. If I could have saved him and thousands of others, I would have been very glad to. But I can't help it. I say, ladies and gentlemen, we will learn good principles and good manners and. And I say it is an insult to this congregation for any man to throw such a challenge in a religious meeting. I say it is an insult, and I will say no more. Now, there's another point that Brigham Young is making. You just got up in our religious worship services to tell everyone there who buried people in Iowa, who Lost everything they owned in Missouri, who had their dad shot in Illinois, that they were imagining that they'd been treated poorly. What are you doing? I always think about this. Not about this, but in a much lighter way. We got to get it a little light in here, right? You ever. Sometimes people will come, like, over to. They'll. They'll visit your. Your ward, and they'll come to class. They'll, like, come to elders corn. You know, I'm always fascinated by the person who just, you know, comes right.

[Andrew]

Into Sunday school or into.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Into elders Quorum, and they just will not stop commenting. Like, they legitimately don't know one person in there. They don't know any of the dynamics. They don't know the teacher. They don't know anybody.

[Andrew]

And they.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're commenting 8, 9, 10 times.

[Andrew]

They just keep.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Every time the teacher says something, hand goes up. Well, that's why we got to do a lot better job when we're doing our ministry. I mean, just.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is funny, though, although your approach to Sunday school, you take more of a Calvin Coolidge, like, approach to Sunday school.

[Andrew]

Yeah. You lose.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Silent Cal. Yeah, you're.

[Andrew]

I'm making reference to the, you know, the support. The bet that. That he bet someone that he could.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Get Calvin Coolidge to say three words before the end of the day. And Calvin Coolidge said to him, well.

[Andrew]

Because he said, I bet.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I bet they bet me I couldn't.

[Andrew]

Get you to say three words. And he said, you lose.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is funny, though. It is. It is a funny. Sometimes you get good. Good stuff. But it is funny. Like, you don't know anybody. You don't know what's going on. You come in, hey, you're shooting from the hip. There we go. Let's go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, it's just interesting because for all, you know, the guy who's giving the lesson, you know, and this can be the case, like, has a child that has passed away. You know what I mean? And you don't know that at all. And, you know, he's given the lesson, and then you make a comment, this happened not in this ward, but in a previous ward. Someone doesn't know that. That's the dynamic. And they make a comment like, well, I think, you know, we can talk about it like this, but I don't think a lot of people understand what it's even like to lose a child. And the person who was speaking had lost a child. You know, that's one of those times where you kind of want to, like, hey, maybe just wait for A second, maybe, maybe. Just don't think that you know exactly what's going on and what the nature of things are. Let's just, you know, and I get it. Look, some people are nervous, and when you're nervous, you comment. I. I get it. I get it. I will say, though, if you're visiting a ward and you find yourself commenting more than five times, it's time to dial it back.

[Andrew]

It's time to go get a drink of water. It's time for you to go. Just let other people have a chance.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Anyway, so Brigham Young ends it like that. Now, you'll notice what he says there, at least the way it's recorded in these minutes, is that I know that Zachary Taylor is dead and damned. Now, of course, for Latter Day Saints, damnation is a very different thing than it is for other Christians, right? We don't believe that damnation is forever. We believe that it's temporary suffering and that then eventually there'll be a resurrection, you'll go to a kingdom of glory. Now, when a Christian hears something like that, it sounds like what you're saying is Zachary Taylor is going to burn in the fiery pits of hell forever. Brigham Young is essentially saying, look, there's nothing I can do to help the fact that he's dead and in the spirit world and suffering for the sins that he committed. And you think, well, what sins is Zachary Taylor committed? I mean, well, I mean, he has over a hundred slaves at his plantation, so I'm guessing something going on, you know, I mean, and so it, what happens, though, is that this takes on a firestorm. The, the, the fact that Brigham Young gets up and says, yeah, that's, that's not going to fly. And, you know, very indignant is, is Brocas and all of the other judges at the response. To make matters short, which I can't possibly do at this point, make matters short was a long, long time ago. Eventually it gets to a point where Brigham, after this, because this is a really public thing, he hears a report that several of the Justices, Lemuel Brandbury, Perry Brocas, and then the Secretary of the Territory, Broden Harris, that they were all, that they were just going to leave their posts and go back to the United States. So Brigham Young does the responsible adult thing to do. Now, look, in this case, I think Brigham Young's spot on. This person lied to you and said, I'm going to, I want to speak to your people briefly to ask for a donation for Washington's monument. And then he went on for an hour Telling everyone how wrong they were, that no one ever hurt them and they shouldn't have a problem with the United States. Well, that's not what you said you were going to talk about. You called an audible here. You decided to pass on the one yard line, and it was an interception for a touchdown. So Brigham Young, though, writes to Brocas and he says, look, I think both of us kind of probably said things we probably shouldn't. A little emotional. How about we both. We meet again next week. You apologize for your remarks, I'll apologize for mine, and we'll just move on. Right now that sounds like a pretty big thing to do, right? Broca's response? Oh, I'd be happy to meet with you again next week, but I wouldn't be able to. To apologize for anything that I said, because everything I said was 100% accurate. He didn't say 100% accurate. He said, but everything was right. So things kind of snowball a little bit now only. So this is all happening in September, but eventually these officials are going to leave Utah territory. And once they leave Utah Territory, they are going to make the most outlandish claims that their lives are in danger, that the Mormons are going to kill them, that the Mormons are in rebellion. Let me give you an example of a newspaper article from November talking about what's going on in Utah when these judges leave. Revolutionary outbreak in Utah is what it's called. The Mormons are not more remarkable for their extraordinary religion than they are for a seditious and turbulent spirit. The day will never come when they will be good citizens of the United States, as some of the Indians are under our protection. He goes on to talk about the whole thing, that these people are assembled and Brocas gets up to speak. He invoked for the judiciary the confidence and support of the community. This invocation was prompted by a conviction that the popular sentiment was inimical. Inimical. Oh, my goodness gracious. I. Richard, I smell toast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, you should have had me read that.

[Andrew]

Yeah, let's see if I can. I'm gonna port this over to Richard real quick.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He'll read it in amicable.

[Andrew]

It doesn't. It doesn't help that the newsprint right there is smudged over. So I'm kind of reading through what appears to be someone's fingerprints. Someone grabbed it too quickly off the breast, anyway.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To the establishment of a territorial government and the consequent extensions of the jurisdiction of the United States government over the people, and more especially by the apprehension that the general feeling of the inhabitants was particularly adverse to the judicial branch of government, which was principally composed of citizens of the United States who were not members of the Mormon Church. The Governor of the territory, who is the head of the Mormon Church, having on several occasions declared that he had governed this people for years and he could still govern them without judges, and avowed that the judges of the United States courts might reside in the territory and draw their salaries, but they could never try a cause if he could prevent it. So here's what's funny. Now this angry, antagonistic paper is taking Broca, saying, I love the fact that you have so few disputes among your people that go to law.

[Andrew]

It's now turned it exactly upside down.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To say Brigham Young's going to make sure nothing goes to the courts. It's a classic, classic.

[Andrew]

Anyway.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Judge Brocas.

[Andrew]

Is going to be.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Referenced in this several times, but I'm going to cut to the point where it matters for our larger discussion. The Mormons ought to have been appointed. None but Mormons ought to have been appointed to any office in the territory. The same Brigham Young says this, and none others but damned rascals would come here. Judge Brocas denounced the charge that he had come to the Territory solely for the purpose of being returned to the Congress as a delegate as false and slanderous, even though there's multiple witnesses to that statement. He knew who was the author of the report and hoped the individual was present. The person alluded to by the speaker was a member of the Mormon Church. Judge Brocas then adverted in a mild and dignified manner, which the exclamation points and underlined words in the transcript don't suggest that, but to an unpatriotic and offensive expression which had fallen from the lips of one of the Mormon preachers on the preceding Sunday, during the hour set apart for the public worship and in the presence of a large congregation, to the effect that the government of the United States was a stink in the nostrils of Jehovah and that they, the Mormons, wished it down and further, that before they would use any other means to save it from destruction than by the means of theocracy, they would see it damned first. Now, this is of course not only not accurate, literally, the Latter Day Saints had agreed to try to save the government by joining California as a state. So this, this makes for great news copy. What a great print job it is, but the very expression that Mormons would allow the country to be destroyed rather than help it, when they literally were the ones who just tried to help it. But the people in California refused to have them.

[Andrew]

Is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is going to be a bit galling, he said. The sentiment was all the more offensive because was uttered in the presence of his Honor Judge Brandbury and himself, who had visited the Bowery on that occasion with respect to feelings, and who have been invited to take a seat upon the stand and had, instead of hearing a religious sermon, as they'd expected, been insulted by a tirade of abuse against the country which they loved and the government of which they were part of the official representatives. Judge Brocas next commented upon an expression used by an elder in the Mormon Church with whom he had traveled from Iowa to this city in the following words. Now I'm assuming it's orsonheide, because that's who he's traveling with. That's what you have to guess. That the government of the United States was going to hell as fast as.

[Andrew]

It can, and the sooner the better.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To the recital of this declaration. There came up into the face of the speaker an enthusiastic burst of applause, clapping of hands and laughter from many in the audience, together with a loud amen from a man in the immediate.

[Andrew]

Vicinity of the stand. So apparently just one guy said amen, and that's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now it's News Copy. I work with a guy, great guy. He decided early in life that, you know, the point of prayers is to give a hearty amen to them or when a speaker is done, you're not just supposed to be or say nothing, which is what people do half the time. So every time someone prays or every time someone bears their testimonies and they close in Amen. He gives a Methodist camp meeting shout of amen. He goes, amen. Just. Just yells it out, you know, and so that's great. You always know whether or not he's at the meeting because you'll know. Because you say a prayer and if you don't, don't hear it ain't there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's a big mistake. It's. It's a classic mistake also made by the Water Bandits. When. Because they'll notice when you're not there.

[Andrew]

The.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The Wet Bandits.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What did I say? Water Bandits.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, from home alone.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, yes. The Wet Bandits.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Call themselves the Wet Bandits.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. Yes. Wet Bandits is what I meant. I'm gonna. I'm gonna change this. I'm gonna fix it in post so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It says, you fix that along with me having a stroke when I tried to say.

[Andrew]

I can't say it now. Well, I'm laughing, but I'm trying to say anyway.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So he says he heard that and people said amen. Having administered a manly rebuke to this manifestation of applause of such an infamous expression, Judge Brocas proceeded to notice a sacrilegious declaration made by Brigham Young, governor of the territory, in the presence of and in the attentive hearing of a vast concourse of persons upon the late anniversary of the arrival of the Mormons in that valley. So again, now he's talking about the 24th of July speech. We don't have anywhere there where Brigham Young said that. So look, our minutes of the meeting of what Broca said, we clearly don't have everything that he said, but apparently he made a reference to that. And that's why Brigham Young said, zachary Taylor is dead and in hell. Right, but from the records we have of the 24 July speech.

[Andrew]

Brigham Young.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Doesn'T say that Zachary Taylor's dead and in hell there either. Right, but this is what Brocas and the others are alleging. Back to the newspaper again. This is an antagonistic newspaper. Zachary Taylor is dead in hell, and I am glad of it. And I prophesy in the name of Jesus Christ, by the power of the priesthood that's upon me, that any president of the United States who shall lift his finger against this people shall die an untimely death and go to hell. This declaration had been received with tremendous outbursts of enthusiastic applause. Judge Brocas, after appropriately referring to the character in the services of General Taylor, administered a severe rebuke to the author of the insult and the outrage upon his memory. The excitement resulting from the judge's speech had been deep and intense, and fears have been entertained for his priority, personal safety. Brigham Young replied to Judge Brocus in a madly furious harangue, lashing the people into a state of excitement beyond power of any pen to picture. Now, out of nowhere, there's a whole new paragraph in this newspaper account. Governor Young and Heber C. Kimball are said to each have as many as 90 wives.

[Andrew]

And that's the only paragraph, has nothing to do with any of the conversation.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Just Brigham Young and Heber Sigel each have 90 wives. Now, of course, they don't. They don't even have collectively that many. But that's what they say. That's at least what they're saying.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

If you ever feel like you're losing the argument, that's when it's very important to list out the number of wives that are had.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I find that that's still the way that people interacting with Latter Day Saints today when they're losing arguments. Yeah, well, how many wives did that? We were just talking about, you know, the fall of Adam. But okay, I mean, it's this attempt to kind of win the argument. He goes on to say that Brigham Young claimed all the United States officers who do not belong to the Mormon Church. Oh, no, this is, this is a quote from the correspondent who's there. All the officers of the United States government who do not belong to the Mormon Church have resolved to leave the territory, being unable to reconcile it to their sense of patriotism and self respect, to remain in the midst of a sedition and lawless vice that pervades that community. In view of their departure, the people become greatly alarmed, fearing the adoption of some severe measures by the general government. The Gazette's correspondent concludes by saying, these people have no idea of ever yielding a loyal obedience to the laws or jurisdiction of the general government and that they must either be sternly forced into submission to the laws of decency and justice or else abandoned to their vile and seditious practices and feelings. Things very. But you know, I like how it was an unbiased report here. I mean, that very clearly could go both ways. We're out of time. A couple more things I want to share because this is going to come up again and again. So the answer to the question who's dead and in hell?

[Andrew]

Well, it's not just Zachary Taylor. He's a starting point. But also we all, we already read.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Them talk about how Zachary, about how James Polk would be damned for his act of chicanery against the Mormons. But I want to track this just a little bit, so maybe we'll have a, you know, it'll be a part like 9.5 next week.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Sounds good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then we'll do, you know, something like how many evil spirits Thomas Marsh had and, and just, you know, go on down the line. Thank you so much for joining us. And we're going to get back to regular programming eventually. We'll never do another multi parter ever again as long as I live, right, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

As yes. As long as Zachary Taylor is dead in hell, we won't do another one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh wow, then we wouldn't even have done this one. Okay, thanks everyone for joining us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Something's telling me I must go home.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.