S5E53 Merry Christmas and Dead and in Hell Part 10, the Finale

Summary

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Standard of Truth Podcast

S5E53 – "Merry Christmas and Dead and in Hell Part 10, the Finale"

Date: December 25, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

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Overview

This Christmas episode of Standard of Truth brings a festive close to the long-running "Dead and in Hell" series, humorously bridging holiday cheer with the colorful history of Latter-day Saints in early Utah. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc exchange heartfelt anonymous gifts before diving into the finale of the feud between Brigham Young and government officials, the persistent "dead and in hell" accusation, and the broader message of redemption in Latter-day Saint belief. The episode balances laughter, deep dives into original historical sources, and a touching testimony of the meaning of Christmas.

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Table of Contents

1. Christmas Gift Exchange & Listener Notes (00:01–11:45)
2. The Utah Territory Controversy: Judges, Accusations, and Allegiances (11:46–27:55)
3. Primary Sources: Firsthand Accounts & Public Perceptions (27:56–35:28)
4. Origins and Evolution of "Dead and in Hell" (35:29–43:57)
5. Brigham Young's Defense & Theological Context (43:58–49:21)
6. The Latter-day Saint View of Hell & Christmas Testimony (49:22–end)

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1. Christmas Gift Exchange & Listener Notes (00:01–11:45)

Key Highlights:

• The episode opens with festive banter about combining Christmas and the series theme, "Who's dead and in hell?" (01:03–01:37)
• Hosts open anonymous Christmas gifts from a superfine listener who signs as "Dirk Moss," referencing an inside joke from their first episode:

  “I don’t know who you are. I love you. I’m a little scared that you know my address, but also, thank you so much. That is super thoughtful.” — Dr. Dirkmaat [07:20]

• Gifts are hyper-personalized and allude to podcast inside jokes: Johann Tetzel indulgence coasters (“When a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from Purgatory springs”), custom Idaho keychain, and much-desired gift cards to Jersey Mike’s and Mod Pizza.
• Discussion of putting “Yoo Hoos” out for delivery drivers, with playful skepticism and eventual proof via blurry security camera video — a recurring joke about generosity and evidence (“I feel that the video... there's better evidence of Sasquatch.” — Dr. Leduc [09:58]).

Memorable Quote:

“Maybe Christmas is knowing who’s burning in hell because they were mean to the Mormons. That’s how Dr. Seuss ended it originally.” — Dr. Dirkmaat [01:37]

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2. The Utah Territory Controversy: Judges, Accusations, and Allegiances (11:46–27:55)

Key Discussion Points:

• Recap of the Utah Territory's federal judges and officials: Lemuel Brandebury, Perry Brocchus (humorously called "Brocas"), and B.D. Harris. All claim to have fled Utah due to Mormon hostility—an assertion Dirkmaat dismantles with context.
• Brigham Young’s practical response: When Harris arrives late with official forms, Young simply conducts the census himself to keep governance functioning—an action Harris later declares illegitimate.
• Officials, facing a lack of opportunity for personal gain and low support, manufacture a narrative of Mormon lawlessness and persecution to justify abandoning their posts and slandering the Saints upon return east.
• Dr. Dirkmaat highlights the manipulation at play and notes the depth required to unearth the details—a dig at armchair experts:

  “My guess is, unless you’ve written a master’s thesis on Perry Brocchus, you haven’t read this.” [15:59]

Notable Segment:

• Willard Trowbridge Snow’s letter recounts tracking the fleeing officials to a steamer, observing their behavior, and hilariously noting Brocchus’s flamboyant spending—culminating in Brocchus stiffing the captain on payment:

  “So apparently this guy is wining and dining three times a day in the expensive cabin... and just took off without paying the bill.” [27:42]

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3. Primary Sources: Firsthand Accounts & Public Perceptions (27:56–35:28)

Key Insights:

• Zerubbabel Snow, the only judge who stayed, privately writes to defend the conduct of the Latter-day Saints. His letter, published by a local newspaper, debunks the charges of lawlessness and bias (e.g., that only Mormons serve on juries—when in fact, half the jurors in a key trial were non-Mormons).

• Snow stresses the normalcy and effectiveness of governance under challenging frontier conditions:

  “No person has been driven from this territory, no man’s property or person has been violently assailed or anything of that kind… as good order prevails here as in any place as I ever was in, in the same number of inhabitants.” — Zerubbabel Snow [34:14]

• Dirkmaat likens anti-Mormon exaggerations to perennial stereotypes of marginalized groups and lampoons how easy it was for critics to make baseless accusations.

Notable Moment:

• Discussion of the absurdity of “jury of your peers” when non-Mormons numbered so few—yet Mormons still ensured half the jury in some cases were outsiders, “grabbing people from immigrant trains.”

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4. Origins and Evolution of "Dead and in Hell" (35:29–43:57)

Key Discussion Points:

• Retells how President Zachary Taylor’s death became tied to Brigham Young via wild rumors that Young declared Taylor “dead and in hell.”
• Traces the rumor’s path: first “the Mormons said it,” then “Brigham said it,” to which Young eventually responds:

  “First of all, I didn’t even say it… but also, Zachary Taylor is dead. So what do you want me to do about this?” — Dr. Dirkmaat paraphrasing Brigham Young [38:54]

• Young’s real point: it was (and is) commonplace for preachers to declare profligate leaders bound for hell—why wouldn’t a Mormon preacher have the same religious right?
• Analytical aside: Brigham Young uses the controversy to defend not only himself but the right of religious leaders to speak out.

Memorable Quote:

“I have just as good a right to say that President Taylor is in hell as to say that any other miserable sinner is there… Was Taylor any more flesh than flesh and blood? I have as good a right to canvass him in a religious point of view as I have to canvass the peasant upon the dunghill.” — Brigham Young, as quoted by Dirkmaat [41:03]

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5. Brigham Young's Defense & Theological Context (43:58–49:21)

Key Insights:

• As federal troops approach (1857 “Utah War” crisis), Brigham Young gives perhaps his most strident sermons, affirming allegiance to the Constitution but condemning “corrupt administrators”:

  “We will be controlled by them if they will be controlled by the Constitution… All we have ever asked is for our constitutional rights.” — Brigham Young [44:46]

• Strong language (“Polk... is now weltering in hell with old Zachary Taylor, where the present administrators will be soon if they do not repent”) is paired with defense of Latter-day Saints’ rights—not a blanket condemnation of America.
• Dirkmaat gives historical analysis, noting that most territorial appointees were government cast-offs, supporting Young’s complaints about outsider interference.

Memorable Moment:

• Modern comparison: Sending washed-up political “one-hit wonders” to govern the Saints; extended with playful music band banter—keeping tone light.

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6. The Latter-day Saint View of Hell & Christmas Testimony (49:22–end)

Key Discussion Points:

• Dirkmaat demystifies Brigham Young's statements about “hell,” clarifying that Latter-day Saints do not believe in a permanent, fiery Protestant hell. Instead, “hell” is spirit prison—a temporary state, not an eternal punishment.

  “Brigham Young is not saying he is for trillions upon trillions of years going to be writhing in the agonies of hell, because Brigham Young doesn’t believe that hell even exists [in that way]...” [49:32]

• Connects the doctrine to Christmas: the core of Latter-day Saint belief is universal resurrection and salvation through Christ—a message unique in its scope and mercy.

• Concludes with moving testimony of Jesus Christ, his condescension, the atonement, and the support Christ offers all who suffer—tying the historical discussion to the spiritual heart of Christmas:

  “The greatest gift obviously will always be that an immortal, omnipotent God became like us and suffered for me and took upon him all of our sins and all of our weaknesses and all of our sicknesses.” — Dr. Dirkmaat [50:44]

• Direct address to listeners feeling alone, under attack, or discouraged—a pastoral moment of connection and hope.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the “Dead and in Hell” theme:

  “I could go on. Clearly, I could go on. We could have Dead and in Hell, Part 95. The podcast could be called Dead in Hell, Merry Christmas.” — Dr. Dirkmaat [43:41]

• Christmas Testimony:

  “I testify to you, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you. And he didn’t just take upon him your sins, but he did. So if what you’re laboring in is sin, it can be taken from you. But he also took your sufferings and your sicknesses so that he can succor you, so that he can provide the amount of help that you need to make it through your terrible gethsemane.” — Dr. Dirkmaat [52:04]

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Final Thoughts

Despite the comic title and irreverent running jokes, this finale beautifully blends Latter-day Saint history, Christmas spirit, and a deeply felt message of faith. Dirkmaat and Leduc deftly use primary sources, humor, and personal reflection to give context to oft-misquoted accusations, draw out the humanity in historical figures, and testify of Christ’s redemptive love. Both newcomers and longtime listeners will find understanding, encouragement, and a few hearty laughs in this holiday episode.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor. Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Dead and in Hell podcast produced by the Standard of Truth Podcast network. I'm sorry, I'm laughing even as I say that, because I know this has gone on far too long, like most of my jokes and also all of my relationships. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[B]

Merry Christmas, Garrett.

[A]

Yes, this is our Christmas drop. And we thought, you know, nothing says the babe in the manger in Bethlehem like who's dead and in hell. That is the way that everyone thinks of Christmas.

[B]

I watched the Charlie Brown Christmas with my family for family night this last week, and I believe that's what Linus said when he was on the stage and. And Charlie Brown. Can someone tell me what Christmas is all about? I'll tell you what Christmas is all about. Who's dead and in hell?

[A]

Yeah, who's dead? I. I'm pretty sure that's the alternate ending to the Grinch saving Christmas. Right? Maybe doesn't come from a store. Maybe Christmas is knowing who's burning in hell because they were mean to the Mormons. That's. That's how Dr. Seuss ended it originally.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's been changed over time. It's been changed over time. Well, it is Christmas. So we received a. An anonymous Christmas gift. This person is so desperate to conceal their anonymity that they created a fake email, which. Their email. Their email name is Dirk Moss. Now, those of you who've been around the podcast for a while, you know that story. If you don't know that story, it's from the very first episode. And so they made their email. It also contains in it dm. So this is that email address. Has one of the three as part of their email address, the way that they wrote it, but they have it come up as the name Dirk Moss. And they delivered this, you know, to my porch. And this is Richard. You have what they sent us a brief note via email.

[B]

Enjoy your Christmas presents on Garrett's porch. I hope you both find endless satisfaction with a surefire way to identify lost keys or bygone proverbs inspiring enough to spark reformation that buttress against the desk. Reproaches of underperforming subordinates. I feel like I nailed that reading.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know what part of AI did. So we have our gifts here. We're going to open them up live on air.

[B]

Oh, very good. I don't know what it is.

[A]

Yeah, well, I don't know what it is either. They're wrapped, so you can actually hear the wrapping paper. This is not just me. Like, it's not like I just went to my. I should, though, I go to my closet, get some wrapping paper that is like the old timey. Like. Like radio shows. Like, he came and I got theater.

[B]

Theater of the mind, Garrett.

[A]

Yes, it's all theater of the mind. So as we open up this now. Now, Richard's box at least appears to say brake pads. Yeah, brake pads now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't know if that's what's in here. If it is, you probably do need some.

[B]

I do.

[A]

But what. What. What do we have in the box? That's the question. Oh, I. I see. What's in the box? I hope it's the.

[B]

Brad Pitt would say, what's in the box?

[A]

I hope the. Hope it's. You know, the brake pads that have asbestos in them. That's. What a great thing to drop off. Now, it is a question of how this person knows where I live, since I don't know who they are. Yes.

[B]

I'd be terrified.

[A]

All right, I am now seeing what Richard's gift is, and it's perhaps the greatest gift ever given to anyone, ever.

[B]

Oh, that's very funny. When a coin in the coffer rings the soul from Purgatory Springs, that's the sales slogan of the company that I work for.

[A]

My personal slot is a coaster of Johann Tetzel, whom we have talked about on this podcast with his ditty, as soon as the coin in the coffer clings a soul from Purgatory Springs. Wow.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty good. He's. While he may or may not have sold indulgences, he is one of my sales icons in terms of his ability to really crafted message.

[A]

It's. It's a little. It's. It's. It's not meant for use. You need to use this as a stand. That's how it was created.

[B]

Oh, I see.

[A]

And also a gift card. If this person is such a great fan of the show, where would they get Richard a gift card?

[B]

Jersey Mike's.

[A]

There we go. All right, Dirk Moss, you got you. You nailed it with that. Now let's Open up Garrett's little gift here.

[B]

Very nice. A number five with rosemary parmesan. Mike's way avocado, if they got it.

[A]

Okay. This is a deep cut. No one's going to understand this, but I understand it. Do you remember we were having a conversation about. About license plates? Like personalized little ones and. And the license plate for Bart Bort. Do you remember that? I don't. We've never ever, you know, you go to those little. Go to those little stores.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've never, ever, ever had.

[B]

Oh, it's. I. It's an Idaho keychain.

[A]

I've never been able to buy one of those little personalized license plates. Yeah, because the closest they ever came to Garrett was Derek. And since that's what everyone called me anyway.

[B]

The license plate. The license plate keychain, right?

[A]

Yes. This is like those little license plates. And this is a keychain. An Idaho keychain, Garrett, as a personalized license plate. That is super thoughtful and a deep cut.

[B]

That is very nice.

[A]

Now, there's also a gift card here, Richard, what kind of gift card would they give me to an eating.

[B]

I believe your Jersey Mike's is Mod Pizza.

[A]

And what do you know? It is a mod pizza gift card. Okay. I don't know who you are. I love you. I'm a little scared that you know my address, but also, thank you so much. That is super thoughtful. And what a great. What a great Christmas. A great Christmas episode where people are being condemned to hell.

[B]

Well, so just really quickly, there's a couple of additional things here. I believe we spoke about the Yoo Hoos that you left outside for the. The delivery drivers, along with other treats and drinks.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. And you sent me a text of. Somebody took one, and I said, I don't believe you. Not until I thrust my hand into the. The dispensary whereby they would grab it would I believe it. And then you sent me the ring.

[A]

Camera footage of a driver taking it.

[B]

Of a driver taking it.

[A]

We have a good friend of the show, Damian, set up a. He set up a Friends of the. Of the show, Friends of the Standard of Truth podcast Facebook page. And on that Facebook page, we. I shared this, that, you know, that I was putting these Yoo Hoos out because Leslie sending me. Leslie sent me a bunch of Yoo Hoos. Someone else sent me a bunch of cans of Yoo Hoo, which I. I tried to see if that tastes better than the normal cardboard boxes of Yoohoo.

[B]

Does it get colder?

[A]

Well, so I. What I did was I Got a glass clear full of ice. I mean this wasn't just on the rocks, it was mostly rocks. And then I poured a can of Yoohoo into it and it's fine.

[B]

Does the Yoo who can, much like a Coors Light can, does the H turn blue when it reaches a certain.

[A]

When it's reached the proper temperature? If that's the case, the H would never turn blue. It would never reach the proper temperature. That's, that's kind of the whole point. So I, some very kind people sent those. And so I've been, you know, helping our delivery drivers get them and, and you know, I asked Richard, I'm putting the Yoos out. Obviously a lot of packages coming. What's the over under his. He. He had said in a previous podcast 0.5 that no one would actually take. So I had to send him video evidence that someone indeed did take them. And, and we are up to seven Yoohoos have been taken over the past two weeks.

[B]

I feel that the video or the photographic images that you placed, like there's better evidence of Sasquatch, like there's.

[A]

I have a very old ring camera and the problem is every person who takes one, they're so embarrassed that they take it real quick. I mean if you're picking up a Yoo Hoo from someone's porch, you aren't lingering, you are running back to your car.

[B]

But they look like the image, the classic one where he's running away.

[A]

Yeah, that's exactly right. You see the profile?

[B]

That's very funny.

[A]

Well, so very grateful. Thank you for those gifts and thank you for obviously listening to the show. I'm always amazed at how deep some people listen to the show. I actually took a couple of the six packs of cans and I took them to a couple of our hardcore listeners in the ward. One of them happens to be like a 17 year old boy who listens a ton. His name's Ian and he's our bishop's son. And I went and delivered it to him and then the other, I delivered it to Rachel's mom's daughter.

[B]

Rachel.

[A]

Rachel, yeah, actually, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Well, I mean she, she could have other kids, you don't know. Only that one I delivered from, from Bill the adulterer. That's funny because the guy, he just gives and gives, you know. So anyway, well, thank you so much for everyone and, and you know, I don't know if anyone's gonna listen to a Christmas episode. I love Christmas classic.

[B]

Classically, the numbers say that no one's.

[A]

Going to listen to this. Yeah. I mean, what the numbers say that whether it's Christmas or not. So I feel like, but especially on.

[B]

I feel like on Christmas Day.

[A]

Oh my God, it's true. Even our emails, you know, it's interesting. We're better than getting hundreds of emails a week. And this last week, the run up before Christmas, we've only gotten several dozen instead of hundreds. And so I think a lot of people, you know, they're out trying to find some Christmas shoes and, you know, there's, there's not as much, as much time to spend on it. But what. When we last left you, we were talking about, you know, the way that, the portrayal of Judge Brocas, his attack on the Saints and Brigham Young's reply. And I wanted, there was just a couple things I wanted to tidy up. I wanted to tie a Christmas bow on perhaps beautiful. Yes. I wanted, I wanted everyone to know some of those things because. Because what happens is. Lemuel Brandaburi, Bronton Harris. Remember we talked about Broton Harris, who was so offended his wife was. Was just traumatized that she met multiple Mrs. Heber C. Kimballs because he had more than one wife. So she told him she wanted to leave from the day one. Right. So Broden Harris. And then Harris also got crosswise of Brigham Young and the Saints because Harris brought out all the money to pay both for the running of the Capitol and to pay all of the people in their political offices. But Harris, you know, tried to create a problem by claiming that because he had the official census forms that he was a year late getting there with that. None of the elections were actually legitimate because the census hadn't been taken with the proper form that had the right notation on it. And you know, because what did Brigham Young do? Well, Brigham Young was a. Was appointed governor. And so they needed a census in order to conduct elections. Harris was a year late getting to his post. So Brigham Young just conducted a census. So Harris got there and instead of saying, hey, my bad, I'm a year. Well, look, he wasn't quite a year late, but he was, he was nine months late. I mean, or 10. I mean, that's. It's a lot. He claimed that the census was all illegitimate because it wasn't done on the proper forms. You can imagine what a practical person like Brigham Young thinks of something like that. So none of our elections, all the expense and the elections and the census, all of it's illegitimate because you didn't show up on time with your forms that you were supposed to bring and so Harris refused to give the money for the operation of the legislature. So that. That's also not going to win friends and influence people. At that point, Harris was like, already wanting an excuse. So all three of these guys, Branderbury, Brocas and Harris, and Brandenbury and Brocas, they're two of the Supreme Court justices, they leave saying that, you know, we had to flee in the middle of the night. Now this despite the fact that Brigham Young's like, hey, let's work this out. We can settle this. They're like, no, we can't settle it. And then they left. And they, of course, published to the world that, oh, the Mormons are horrible. The Mormons are evil. So here's a fun little Easter egg that you wouldn't get very often. My guess is, unless you've written a master's thesis on Perry Brocas, you. You haven't read this or at least known what it was when you read it. Maybe people are casually reading letters from Willard Trowbridge Snow, but I. I don't know that they are. Are you, Richard? Is it? I.

[B]

Think you very much know that.

[A]

They aren't who the problem is. A lot of people pretend that they know things that they don't know. And so that's always. You know, there's a lot of people like, oh, yeah, I mean, I've read that. It's like, okay. And so I have to go along with it.

[B]

I can't call him a liar.

[A]

Right. I meet people on the Daily who will come to a fireside and say, well, I've read where Joseph Smith said this. And I'll be like, nope, you haven't. No, no, I did. Okay, well, I know that you haven't. Look, I know that you read someone saying that. That's not the same thing as reading Joseph Smith saying it. Right, right. It's usually some kind of anti. Thing like, no, I read that Joseph Smith was convicted for. For, you know, lying to people about his seer Stone. Okay, where'd you read that? I mean, no, it's like in the actual court documents. Oh, that'd be great. Why don't you show them to us since we are doing the legal series. Be great to have those documents that show that. That we don't actually have. You know, forward them on to us. Hold up, hold up, hold up.

[B]

So someone's straight up lying to you and you're like, oh, well, we're actually doing the legal papers. That'd be super helpful. Actually.

[A]

We.

[B]

We've been looking everywhere for that that's hilarious.

[A]

Well, I mean, that's. The person was fairly antagonistic. Okay.

[B]

So they had.

[A]

Okay, they had it. You know, and perhaps, look, I am a sinner. I need Christmas more than anybody, and I have got to get better at just not. I don't know, when people come at you and they're in front. And, oh, part of the problem is they're in front of other people. You know, I'm not.

[B]

I'm not throwing stones. I think it's a very. I think it's a very effective tactic.

[A]

Well, thank you so much.

[B]

We're looking everywhere for that document.

[A]

Oh, gosh. People will come up after the fireside and they'll be like, oh, thank you. I had a question about this. I had a question. And. And someone will come up and be like, well, I mean, I noticed that you didn't. You decided not to tell everyone that Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud. And I'll be like, yeah, yeah. Why do you think I didn't tell people about that? I think because you're trying to hide it. He's trying to hide the fact that he's convicted for it. I was like, yeah, well, how do you know that he was convicted? I mean, I've read. I've read all about it. Where did you read all about it? I mean, it's in the documents. What documents are those? Because we don't have the court records from that trial. Are you saying that you have them? Because if you do, the church is willing to buy them from you, Guaranteed. Guaranteed. The Church is. I just see you licking the tip of a pin, pulling out a check. How much? What do you got? I'm a professor, so I can't offer you much. But, yeah, that does happen and it's unfortunate and I need to be better. The problem is when people say things, because I'll have people in firesides raise their hand and say, well, what about the fact that Joseph Smith lied about this? And they'll say it in front of everyone.

[B]

Yeah, no, you gotta. You gotta put it down.

[A]

So at that point, my only recourse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now maybe it's not. I'm gonna have a bunch of people writing, no, no, no, you're only turn the other cheek and be nice. And. And apparently I can't.

[B]

Well, no, but so in fairness to you on this, first of all, I think it's hilarious. Second of all, although I'm a terrible ally on this, so that you shouldn't listen to that at all.

[A]

Go. Go for it. You're the hype. Man, that's like telling. Yeah, you already said about you, Johnny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm the. Yeah, I'm the guy from Cobra Kai in the background saying, put him in a potty bag, Johnny. But.

[B]

No, but. So, I mean, I. I love it. I. I love it when you. You. When you do that. But in that setting, I. I've.

[A]

I've.

[B]

I don't know. I've attended probably 20, 30 of your firesides, some in Lithuanian, some in English, and they're great. And for the most part, the questions are great, the conversation is great, and it's really productive. But I have seen antagonistic questions that are attacking Joseph Smith or attacking the church, and Joseph was a merciful man.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He bore with you these things. But I will not. I mean, I. To. To paraphrase Brigham Young in Winter Quarter. So. So, yeah, I mean, I occasionally have that. I had someone in one of my recent. I've done a lot of firesides lately, and I had someone in one of my recent ones. This was. At least it wasn't during the general question time, but it was when there were, like, 25 people surrounding me asking questions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they. They made a pejorative statement. And I. I want to say that I did a very good job, and I kindly responded, and I wasn't mean at all, but I did demonstrate to everyone there that the person didn't have any idea what they were talking about, and I felt bad about it. But you can't just declare something horrific about Joseph Smith and not even know where it comes from and do it publicly. And obviously, you knew what you're doing. You know what I mean? And that's the frustrating thing, too. When people are doing it, they're deliberately doing it in front of other people, and they then are stunned when you have a response that's like, yeah, well, where did that come from? And of course, they don't know. It's a stunning thing. I don't know that there's any other more poorly prepared antagonists in the world than anti. More. It's crazy. Like, I'm gonna go to your faith event, and then I'm gonna throw out a ridiculous accusation, but I have not done enough homework to even know what I am quoting at it. That is crazy levels of hubris, don't you think?

[B]

Yes, that is.

[A]

And it also shows that it's worked for them, that they've been around other people and they've just said, well, you know, Joseph Smith said this, and. And they're like, oh, I. I Didn't know. Oh, really? I didn't. And no one's ever called them on it.

[B]

Well, that's one of the things, right? So, like, one of the tricks of the trade is to be able to bring stuff up that people haven't necessarily heard before. And there's decent reasons why they haven't heard it before, because it's a terrible argument or it's super, you know, just kind of. Kind of out there.

[A]

Or they're late. Yeah. How come I haven't ever heard that? Spanish conquistador with blood dripping from his neck appeared to Joseph Smith. I don't know. Why haven't you heard that?

[B]

Because it was written in 1973.

[A]

But, I mean, we digress a little bit as we are want to do. We often digress. And so back to this letter by Willard Trowbridge Snow, who Richard, in his leisure time reads, yes, it just so happens, okay, so he's on his way to England, okay, He's on his way to Europe. So he's going back from Salt Lake to. To, you know, I don't. New York or Boston or somewhere to go to. Go to England. And on his trip back, guess who he crosses paths with? Perry Brocas.

[B]

How about that?

[A]

Who's on his way back to Washington having fled the territory. Because what happens is those officials, they're like, oh, we can't govern here at all. And they just leave, even though Brigham Young's like, come on, we obviously can work this out. And, you know, I think all of them realized that they weren't going to be able to grift very much in the territory, and that's the primary way of making money with a territorial appointment. And, you know, they wanted to leave. So he writes this letter back to Wilford Woodruff, and he says that we were accompanied by Brother Shirtloaf and Jededi M. Grant. We loaded the stage and went to St. Joseph, St. Joseph, Missouri, where we learned that the steamer El Paso had just left the landing containing those officers, fugitives from justice. We therefore hired a couple of vehicles and rode in the night to Weston. So the best part is this dude finds out, okay, Willard Snow finds out that the steamer just ahead of them that just left has Perry Brocas and these runaway officials on it. So they decide to hire some stage coaches to get them ahead of the steamer. So they're at the next stop so they can get on the boat with the next steamer.

[B]

So they. They pull like, a Tiancum and Lehigh and, like, go out around them at night and.

[A]

Yep, that's exactly right. So we rode to Weston where we stepped on board and found ourselves in the presence of those great dignitaries and accompanied them to St. Louis. The passengers on board petitioned them for a speech, but they never so much as peeped publicly at our presence. So first of all, remember, the whole way out, they were trying to speak to everybody because they were just so important. The whole way back, people were like, hey, why don't you tell us what happened in Utah? Not saying a word. Not saying a word, right. They fuddled and fiddled and danced one cotillion and part of another, and they finally flatted out. I'm not entirely sure what that meant of Captain Day getting tipsy. Day was the Indian agent who left, and Brandaburi was disgusted. Brocas paraded himself at the head of the table in the gentleman's cabin three times a day to eat. And he had an extra table twice a day set in the ladies cabin with wine and women and fruit of all kinds and flesh, a plenty both of fish and foul. While to pass the time, a young Kentuckian had to tell the anecdote about the. He writes a different word for this, the donkey who was invited to participate in music and dancing in a party of young people down east and applied that to the high judge brocist. But alas, on reaching St. Louis, the captain of the boat could not get his pay of brocas and he went on towards Washington without paying his extravagant bill, as the captain said. So apparently this guy is wining and dining three times a day in the expensive cabin. He's setting up a table for ladies, trying to, you know, curry their favor. And apparently the captain of this boat tells Snow that brocas refused to pay him and just took off without paying the bill of all this extra food and money and wine he'd spent.

[B]

Well, I mean, he's very important, Garrett.

[A]

I'm sure he was like, well, eventually the government will take care of this, that kind of thing. So they, of course they go. And the fact that they go back, they make a huge deal prevailing to that. You know, that Utah's in rebellion. You've got to do something about this. What's interesting is one of the judges who stayed and that. That judge is. Is. Is Zerubbabel. Your favorite name. Zerubbabel Snow. He actually writes a private letter to a Missouri newspaper that the newspaper then of course just publishes because that. Who cares if it's a private letter? If you think that things like that happen now with like. Well, they recorded the conversation. Yeah, it happened Then, too, by the way, people like, this is a letter just for you. Like, well, I'm going to publish it. So Zerubbabel Snow. So. So at first everyone was shocked and horrified. But then there were a few newspapers that were like, so why did these guys leave their appointments? I mean, so they just left the people there without any federal oversight at all. And one of these newspapers in Missouri had kind of said, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. And so Zerubbabel Snow wrote to them privately. And they decided to take a bunch of it and publish it. Because that's what, you know, what makes. Makes for good news copy. He says, you know, I'm happy to. You've. You've taken notice of the affair in Utah. No man more deeply regrets than myself the unfortunate affair. It is also deeply regretted by the people here. But it cannot now be helped. So they make the best of it. I see you, in a few unimportant items have been laboring under a mistake of facts. I will therefore correct you. You seem to have supposed that all the judges left. This is a mistake. I am one of the judges appointed for this station. And I remained here for the reason that I thought it my duty to do so. There are indiscreet persons here. But no person has been, in my opinion, more indiscreet than the honorable Perry Brocust. I never heard one word uttered against Lemuel Brandenbury, nor BD Harris. Until they espoused the private difficulties of Perry Brocas. Even now, nothing is against either of them. Except what relates to this espousal and their desertion, if desertion be the proper word used of their duties. Mr. Harris and Mr. Brandenbury were both, as far as I know, well received here. And they might, as they had taken a straightforward course in the line of duty, paid no attention to anything else, and have been highly useful to the government. And having been honored and respected here, the government officers, except the Indian Agents. Did not receive any outfits for this territory. Nor was any part of their salaries paid. Until they'd taken the oath of office in this territory. It is not correct, as you supposed, as would have been the case had I also left that there is no legal method here of enforcing the laws. And correcting public and private wrongs. I have held my courts and things have moved off with as much regularity as could be expected in a new government. Some irregularities, of course, occur. He's trying to say, look, it's brand new territory, right? And in my opinion, more than we are accustomed to Seeing the old Saints. But whoever duly reflects on the state of affairs that must have existed here cannot reasonably expect a less number of irregularities than I find. In my last session of court, four persons were convicted of larceny, one Mormon and three immigrants. One of the last named, in my opinion, was drawn into it by the evil counsel of others. The Mormon is now undergoing imprisonment. And because one of the things the paper said is a Mormon could never be convicted of a crime in Utah territory. And so Zerubbabel Snow's like, oh, yeah, well, the last guy I just threw in prison was a Mormon. So I guess maybe they can be. I mean, it's one of those things that people say that they think must be the case. As if Mormons are fine with people robbing them as long as they're Mormons. Like, oh, that guy robbed me. Well, he, I mean, he is, he is in the Sunday school presidency, so I guess that's fine. I mean, it's, it's the same kind of pejoratives that are made against minority groups all the time, right? That, that, that they're so benighted that they don't have the ability to think for themselves and that kind of stuff. Anyway, he goes on to say that, you know the claim that there's only Mormons who serve in juries. These two cases created some excitement before conviction as the property stolen had passed by sale through the hands of very honest traders. Here, the officer prudently called as trovers jurors, one half Mormons and one half other citizens. So he's proving, like you just said, that only Mormons serve on juries. In this case, half of the jurors were Mormons and the other half weren't Mormons. So I guess it's not all Mormons serving on juries. And you got a conviction of a Mormon and a non Mormon. 3 non Mormons in a jury that was half Mormons and half non Mormons. He's trying to prove the point. You're saying that there's no justice here, that only Mormons serve on juries, that there's no judges left. I'm a judge who's left. It's not only Mormons who serve on juries. And yes, Mormons get convicted of crimes. I know because I just sent one to the penitentiary.

[B]

But so half being Mormons, when. What percentage is Mormon?

[A]

Like 99%. You are grabbing people from immigrant trains and saying, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? No, you're gonna be a juror today. There are very Few that are permanent residents at this point in 1831.

[B]

So for it to be half non Mormons is pretty significant percentage.

[A]

Yeah. And it's very, I mean, in many ways it's super prejudice, right? Like it's supposed to be a jury of your peers, not a jury of 1% of your population.

[B]

But all the more reason though, right, that it's.

[A]

Well, that's the point Zerubbabel Bull Snow is trying to make. And then, you know, because the way that the, the, the officials tell it, oh, we were driven, our lives were threatened, we had to leave the territory or we would be killed. Zerubal Snow, no person has been driven from this territory, no man's property or person has been violently assailed or anything of that kind that has come under my judicial or any other notice except the above mentioned, as good order prevails here as in any place as I ever was in, in the same number of inhabitants. Very respectfully, your obedient servant, Zerubbabel Snow. So, I mean, they published it even though they weren't supposed to. But he's essentially saying that it's all lawlessness, saying that there's only Mormons. It's just not true. And so the thing is, this is why Millard Fillmore really should be not dead and in hell. Okay? Millard Fillmore is really one of the great presidents interacting with the Latter Day Saints.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because what Millard Fillmore could have done is taken the word of his appointees who came back making all kinds of claims, and he didn't. Instead, he had the Secretary of State look into it, and the Secretary of State wrote and he did an investigation, saw that these, this was what you might call today a nothing burger. Like you guys being upset, first of all, you guys speaking in the General Conference and making the Mormons mad, and then you guys fleeing the territory like you couldn't stay there when there's no credible threat to you at all. You need to go back to your appointed place. This is what, this is your job in the government. Or you can resign your commission and not get paid. That's what you can do. You can resign your position, but you can't just leave the territory and still expect to be paid for not being there. And they, of course, protest and becomes a really big deal. But Millard Fillmore's government orders them to go back. They don't go back, and so they're forced to resign and it ends up making brocas look worse. But let me give you a little bit of the aftermath of this not just a Willard Trowbridge snow letter, which was fun. That was fun. I thought Brigham Young is going to bring this up a couple of other times because it is going to spread everywhere that Brigham Young said that Zachary Taylor was dead and in hell. Zachary Taylor was dead in hell. Right. Which. Who is the person that is being mentioned? If you're wondering who's dead in hell? Well, we've listed a lot of people at this point, but Zachary Taylor is. Is. Is who the alleged. Is. So in 1855, Brigham Young is giving. So this, you know, three years down the road, right? And this Brigham Young brings up this whole thing, right? He said, corrupt men cannot walk these streets with impunity. And if that is alienism to the government, amen to it. The Constitution of the United States we sustain all the day long, and we will sustain it, and it will sustain and shield us. While the men who were. Who say we are aliens and cry out Mormon disturbance, they will go to hell. So here's some other people going to hell, people who are accusing the Mormons of not being good citizens. There have been officers here who were not fit to live in our midst, and they ran home and they raised a cry. Mormon disturbances, Mormon rebellion, Mormon war treasoners. But their day is over. When a man professes to be my friend and the friend of this people, he will take my counsel instead of stirring up strife and practicing iniquity. I dislike the willfully corrupt. And by and by, I will come out thunder, like as I have done upon others when practicing iniquity, as I did upon a certain individual when he made his glorious speech and insulted this people from highest to lowest. Now he's. He didn't say the word brocus, but also brocas. We know exactly who he's talking about. I chastised him and he ran off and reported me as saying those things which I did not say. It was told him while he was on the plains that President Zachary Taylor was dead and damned. And it has gone through the States from one side to another side that I said so. It was first given out that the Mormons said so, and then it became that Brigham said so, right? So Brigham's like tracking this. The anatomy of. Of him claiming that Zachary Taylor was dead in hell. It's like, first of all, I didn't even say it. And when they first said it, they didn't even say that I said it. They said that Mormon said it, and then it became Brigham Young said it. So the original question we got was, did Brigham Young actually Say that Zachary Taylor was dead in hell. I don't actually know, but here he seems to be saying that this is the iteration of this. So he says it was given out. The Mormons said so, and then that Brigham said so. Well, I backed it up because I knew that it was true. So essentially he's saying, look, I'm not the one who said that Zachary Taylor was dead in hell, but also, Zachary Taylor is dead. So what do you want me to do about this? I mean, I'm not the one, you know, I didn't set the line on the byu, Texas Tech game, but also I knew that Texas Tech was going to win that game. You know what I mean? Like, what? What do you want me to do? And so Brigham Young, you know, of course he's, you know, he's speaking to his own people here. But then he makes a point that really should have been the point from the beginning for Perry Brocas. Why can't a Mormon preacher say that someone needs to repent or they're going to go to hell? Protestant ministers do it all the time. You will hear Protestant ministers right now say, if President Trump doesn't repent, he'll go to hell. Right? I mean, if he doesn't trust in Jesus, if he doesn't turn away from. Preachers have always said that if leaders don't follow Jesus, they're going to go to hell. And so Brigham Young makes this point. I have just as good a right to say that President Taylor is in hell as to say that any other miserable sinner is there. Wasn't he. Was Taylor any more flesh than flesh and blood? I have as good a right to canvas him in a religious point of view as I have to canvass the peasant upon the dunghill. Taylor has gone there and so have many others. And the Lord Almighty is removing bitter branches as foretold in the Book of Mormon. The newspapers are teeming with statements that I said President Pierce and all hell couldn't remove me from office. I will tell you what I did say and what I now say. The Lord reigns and rules in the armies of heaven, and he does his pleasure among the inhabitants of the earth. He sets up a kingdom here, and he pulls down another there at his pleasure. He walks in the midst of the people, and they know it not. He makes kings, presidents, governors at his pleasure. Hence, I conclude that I shall be governor of Utah Territory just as long as God wants me to be. And for that time, neither the President of the United States nor any other power can prevent it. Then Brethren and sisters, be not worried about me being dismissed from office. For when the President appoints another man to be governor of Utah Territory, you may acknowledge that the Lord has done it, for we should acknowledge his hand in all things. That's not quite the. I'm raging against the government and rebelling against what they do. In fact, he's telling people, listen, if, if God wills that I no longer be the governor anymore, I won't be. And that's God's will, obviously, because God does what God wants to have done. Right? So he's more kind of giving, saying, look, we follow what God has said. Now, one last part of this puzzle. I could go on. Clearly, I could go on. We could have Dead and in Hell, Part 95. The podcast could be called Dead in Hell, Merry Christmas. In fact, we should try that. Let's workshop that. Dead in Hell, Merry Christmas as the new title of the podcast.

[B]

We have a very festive illustration for the podcast art that we, you know, that is coming out today because it's Christmas. But I, I. Let me see if we can workshop some, some Dead in Hell, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas cover art. Yes.

[A]

Or maybe Merry Christmas, Dead and in Hell. I feel like, okay, Merry Christmas, Dead in Hell.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

Yeah. So there's one more time that Brigham. Well, there's more than one more time, but one more important time that Brigham Young mentions this, and he mentions it in the midst of the kind of 1857 crisis. This is when the army is being sent to Utah, when people are saying the Mormons are in rebellion. And so this is the Latter Day Saints at their most. This is when they are saying their most strident things against the leaders of the United States government because they at least are being told that an army is on its way to kill them. Now, in the end, that isn't what happens. But when you're a Latter day Saint in 1857, when someone says, we're taking an army to exterminate you, you take them seriously because you've had armies march to exterminate you. Right? So I don't know where there's a lot that I could say here, but let, let me, let me share this part because it goes back to our point. It is a pretty bold stand for this people to take to say that they will not be controlled by the corrupt administrators of our general government. We will be controlled by them if they will be controlled by the Constitution and laws, but they will not. Many of them don't care anymore about the Constitution and the laws that they make than they do about the laws of another nation. That class trample the rights of the people under their feet, while there are so many who would like to honor them. All we have ever asked is for our constitutional rights. We wish the laws of our government be honored, and we have ever honored them, but they are trampled under foot by the administrators. There cannot be a more damnable, dastardly order issued than was issued by the administration to this people while they were in an Indian country. In 1846, before we left Nauvoo, not less than two United States senators came to receive a pledge from us that we would leave the United States. And then, while we were doing our best to leave their borders, the poor, low, degraded curses sent a requisition of 500 men of our men to go and fight their battles. That was president Polk, and he is now weltering in hell with old Zachary Taylor, where the present administrators will be soon if they do not repent. Liars have reported that this people have committed treason. And upon their lies, the president has ordered troops to aid in officering this territory. And if those officers are like many that have previously been sent here, and we have no reason to believe that they are, or that they would not come when they knew that they were not wanted, if they are poor, miserable, black legs, broken down political hacks, robbers and whoremongers, men that are not fit for civilized society, so that he must dragoon them upon us for officers, I feel that I won't bear such cursed treatment. And that is enough to say, for we are just as free as the mountain air. I do not lift my voice against the great and glorious government guaranteed to every citizen by our Constitution, but against those corrupt administrators who trample the Constitution and just laws under their feet. So, like Brigham's trying to say, we love the United States, we love the Constitution, we don't love people who lie and order death and people who are, you know, who make false claims, who are not living up to their oath of office. Right. Which, as I've mentioned before, there was a great study that was done of political appointees to territorial offices. And what it found was what you might think the vast majority of them. Not just a majority, the vast majority never completed their 10 years in office. And nearly all of them were people that weren't wanted in any other branch of the government. And so when Brigham Young says, all you're sending to us is broken down political hacks, robbers and whoremongers, in other words, you're sending as, as. As the, the number one attraction to the local county fair, the One Hit Wonder Band whose hit was 30 years ago. And maybe you still want to see him. Maybe you still loved him.

[B]

Yeah, REO Speed Wagon's got some hits.

[A]

Well, I mean, they've got more than one. Let's not call Oreo Speedwagon, okay? Richard's offended me. I'm the one who would have been there. Richard's offended.

[B]

Okay, so you're saying aha. With take on me. That's what you're saying.

[A]

I'm saying you'd be lucky to get take on me in a local county fair. You'd be lucky to get aha. But anyway, so here you have. This is 1857, where Brigham Young certainly believes. Now, when I talked about this in my dissertation, one of the points I wanted to make is Brigham Young feels fairly free in saying that President Polk and Zachary Taylor are going to hell in part because we don't believe in hell, not the Protestant hell. So, look, that's a very offensive thing for Brocas to hear. You are trying to tell me that Zachary Taylor is in hell forever? Because that's what Protestants believe hell is when Brigham Young believes that hell is spirit prison, where you go to suffer for your unrepented of sins, but that eventually Brigham Young is going to declare dozens of times that everyone is going to go to a kingdom of heaven and court. So it's one of those tempest in a teacup things to begin with. Zachary Taylor, I'm sure, has some sins he needs to repent for. Among them, you know, committing to help the saints and then not helping them. I'm going to guess that's something. Right? But Brigham Young is not saying he is for trillions upon trillions of years going to be writhing in the agonies of hell because Brigham Young doesn't believe that hell even exists, that the hell you go to when you die, you go to spirit prison because you haven't repented, because you haven't embraced the gospel. But as Joseph Smith taught, as soon as we embrace the gospel, whether alive or dead, you can be saved. To bring it all back to Christmas, after a lot of dead in hell, let me bring it on back to Christmas. It's the great aspect of the restoration. One of the things that we have gained that no one else actually believes. Now, some people say it, but their religions don't believe it, is that everyone's going to be saved in a kingdom of heaven. We believe that part of the atonement, as Brigham Young said. How are these people going to be saved who never accepted Jesus through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The great condescension of God. That Jehovah Jesus before, before he came down was all powerful was the God of Israel. He's the one who parted the Red Sea. He brought fire down from heaven for Elijah. He destroyed the armies of the Assyrians in front of Isaiah. That same all powerful God condescended to pass through a veil to give up godhood and become a man and became that baby in. In Bethlehem. The condescension I don't think we can understand because you and I, as Brigham Young says, are not even capacitated to understand. We don't have the ability to understand the glory of the telestial kingdom. The kingdom that the liars, robbers and whoremongers are going to is so great and so glorious that you and I can't comprehend it unless God shows it to us in a vision. And Jesus, the creator of everything that is and all things that in them are this all powerful. God condescended to pass through a veil to become that baby in in the manger and had to relearn grace for grace. Who he really was. And that's why doctrine covenant section 93 is so incredible that he received not of a fullness at first, but he received grace for grace until he achieved or received a fullness. And so as we're celebrating Christmas presents and all that, all kinds of fun gifts, thank you to our anonymous donors. The greatest gift obviously will always be that an immortal, omnipotent God became like us and suffered for me and took upon him all of our sins and all of our weaknesses and all of our sicknesses. And that the great teaching in the Book of Mormon. Why? Why would he do this if he's all powerful now? The Spirit knoweth all things, but nevertheless that he might know how to succor his people, he suffered the atonement in some way gave Jesus a better understanding or a better ability to help each of us when we suffer. So I know we joke around a lot on the podcast. I know that sometimes you wonder how serious I can be. But I want to leave with you my testimony. I know some of you are struggling. I know because you email. And I know that 2, 3, 4, 5 times as many of you are struggling and you aren't sending an email. I know there are those of you that are in part member families and you're barely hanging on and someone's attacking your faith. I know those of you who've had your heart ripped out by this world or by loved ones in this world, and you're just trying to hold on. Some of us have suffered horrible, unfair, tragic deaths of our loved ones. Some of us have had financial reverses. And some of us just don't know whether we can keep hanging on. I testify to you, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you. And he didn't just take upon him your sins, but he did. So if what you're laboring in is sin, it can be taken from you. But he also took your sufferings and your sicknesses so that he can succor you, so that he can provide the amount of help that you need to make it through your terrible gethsemane. Just as the Father sent the angel from heaven, strengthening him when Jesus cried out. So I am grateful. One of the reasons why I'm so grateful for the gospel is I know who Jesus Christ is. I know who he is because of his revelations to the prophet Joseph Smith. I know. I know what our purpose on this earth is. I know that Jesus died for me because I know that Jesus was seen by Joseph. Joseph saw him. And not just one time, dozens of times, and not just by himself with other people. It's not just Joseph who says that Jesus is risen. Sidney Rigdon saw him, the resurrected Lord. Oliver Cowdery saw the resurrected Lord. Frederick G. Williams saw the resurrected Lord. Dozens of people in company with Joseph saw Jesus. So if you're wondering, well, maybe Joseph just thought he saw Jesus, well, that's not a very good argument because it's dozens of people. And the testimony they give last of all is that he lives, for they saw him even on the right hand of God. So I bear that testimony to you, and I pray that whatever your suffering is, it is mitigated through the atonement of our Savior. And hopefully at least two people listen to this. The great gentleman who brought us our Christmas gifts and Rachel's mom. At least we'll have two that go out there. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Don, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.