S5E6 Stillbirths and Miscarriages

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: S5E6 "Stillbirths and Miscarriages" Summary

In the sixth episode of Season 5, titled “Stillbirths and Miscarriages,” hosts Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve into one of the most profound and sensitive topics faced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS): the grief and unanswered questions surrounding miscarriages and stillbirths. Released on February 6, 2025, this episode offers a heartfelt exploration of faith, church history, and personal suffering.

Handling Listener Emails

The episode begins with Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc addressing the influx of listener emails, sharing anecdotes about humorous and heartfelt correspondence from missionaries and members alike. They emphasize the challenge of responding to the sheer volume of messages, mentioning they receive approximately 100 emails weekly, a number that has since grown. Dr. Leduc humorously notes, “[00:45] B: Hello, Garrett. We'll just jump right into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. No pleasantries.”

A Heartfelt Listener's Plea

The core of the episode centers around a poignant email from a listener named Loretta, who grapples with the loss of three miscarried children. She writes, “[03:15] A: Wrong. No, that makes sense,” leading into her detailed account of the emotional turmoil and lack of satisfactory answers from church leaders regarding the eternal fate of her lost children.

Dr. Dirkmaat shares his personal connection to Loretta’s pain, revealing his own wife Angie’s experiences with miscarriages. He empathizes deeply, stating, “[13:45] A: Yeah, that's, you know, and we're not good fathers.”

Historical and Doctrinal Insights

The hosts transition to a scholarly discussion, analyzing historical church doctrines related to the soul’s existence and the implications for stillbirths and miscarriages. They reference early Christian fathers like Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria, who believed that the soul is created at conception. Dr. Dirkmaat explains, “[10:56] A: We have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of missionaries that are listening that are in the drive...”

Brigham Young's teachings are scrutinized, particularly his stance that the spirit enters the body when a mother feels fetal movement. Dr. Dirkmaat cites Young’s Journal of Discourses, noting, “[09:01] B: yes, yes. Dr. Dirkmaat adds: “...the movement of a child inside of the mother in this sermon from 1859, that. That was never published.”

Joseph Smith’s Struggles with Unanswered Questions

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Prophet Joseph Smith’s own struggles with unanswered questions about suffering and the afterlife. Dr. Dirkmaat highlights Joseph’s distress over his brother Alvin’s death and his delayed comfort regarding the celestial kingdom. He states, “[50:49] B: How do...” and continues to elaborate on Joseph’s emotional and theological turmoil.

Dr. Leduc adds, “[50:50] A: You think he feels? If you think about the fact that anyone is in Missouri because he, as a prophet of God, received a revelation commanding people to go settle in Missouri...”

They discuss the contradictions in Joseph Smith’s revelations, such as the initial belief that baptism was necessary for entry into the celestial kingdom versus later teachings that offered a more inclusive understanding through baptisms for the dead. This paradox exacerbated Joseph’s suffering, as illustrated when Dr. Dirkmaat reflects, “[50:50] A: You think he feels?...”

Reflections on Suffering and Faith

Towards the episode's conclusion, Dr. Dirkmaat offers solace rooted in faith and the teachings of the Church. He acknowledges the limitations of providing immediate answers but emphasizes the hope found in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. “[14:00] B: Yeah, I, I don't know how you make time for it all...”

He reassures listeners that, despite the present anguish, there is a promise of eventual recompense and joy: “[14:06] A: Sasha, that's very kind... Every tear is dried, every heart aching, wrenching, painful thing that we have experienced is taken from us and we have a perfect joy.”

Conclusion

Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc conclude by reiterating their sympathy for those enduring profound loss and suffering. They underscore the importance of faith and the belief in a future where all sorrows will be alleviated, aligning with Joseph Smith’s teachings on the resurrection and eternal life. “[14:06] A: Sasha, that's very kind...”

This episode of Standard of Truth serves as both a compassionate dialogue and an academic exploration of complex doctrinal issues, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of how the LDS faith addresses one of life’s most heart-wrenching realities.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor. Foreign welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[B]

Hello, Garrett. We'll just jump right into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. No pleasantries.

[A]

Let's just feel like we should at least point out that this week my son and his companion on their mission in Arizona decided that they would mock the opening to the Standard of Truth podcast by saying that. Well, I think. I feel like they were more mocking. What you say is that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I say six things on this podcast and they chose to.

[A]

I.

[B]

Don'T know, punch down. Is that the expression? Hip to the kids. Yeah, they're punching down by making fun of my meager contribution. It was pretty funny. I laughed pretty hard at it.

[A]

It was very, very thoughtful in there.

[B]

It was. They. They essentially, they were doing their impression of hello, Garrett. And even on the Standard of Truth, the book. Then inside, they pasted something that said hello, Garrett. So that was gone. Good. Well done.

[A]

I mean, look, when you're a missionary.

[B]

You know, you're a jet all the way, Gary.

[A]

Well, no, when you're a missionary, you look for whatever humor you can find because someone just told you that you're going to burn in a hell of Protestant fire.

[B]

We were between a couple of different topics. And my hope is on a future episode that we do, we got a very funny email from a missionary that said, hey, essentially, why does everyone hate us so much?

[A]

Yeah. And the answer is the world itself could not contain the books of why. But we could get to that. Maybe eventually. I'm not sure exactly what I would say to that. I'd be like, yeah, because they really do ADAs. No. Why? Because they do.

[B]

Yeah, they do. Well, Garrett, into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. This email comes to us from. From Richard. I'm partial to his.

[A]

I feel like you wrote this email.

[B]

I just. I just look for. I just look for emails from. From Richards and then just read those emails.

[A]

Or from Pennsylvania.

[B]

Yeah. So it says doctor, Dear doctor and doctor Insert name. Is what they have so changeable at.

[A]

Wrong. No, that makes sense.

[B]

Oh, is that. Yeah, you're right. Probably afraid of the spelling. I just assumed that now that they put me at your level and maybe.

[A]

Their intention was to say, Dear Dr. Leduc first.

[B]

I. I doubt that. Based on tens of thousands of emails of experience. I doubt that very.

[A]

We do. I mean, we do receive a ton of emails. Just so everyone knows. We are probably getting in the neighborhood of 100 emails a week almost. I mean, it is.

[B]

Oh, it's. Well, I think we're well over that now, actually.

[A]

Well, I mean, the ones that aren't from your son. No, we're.

[B]

We're actually well over that. I only. I only forward the good ones onto you, though.

[A]

I see. I see all the. All the hate mail that you. You quarantine that. But. So we do read every email. We legitimately, because we have families and jobs and, well, what one might call a life. We can't respond to all of them. Even just responding to. Thanks so much for your email. Typing that in there would take me hours of every day. And so thank you for your emails. Thank you for your questions. Even if we don't answer them, it probably means they were about polygamy. But if you feel like, oh, man, they didn't even read my email. We do read all of them. It's just. It's a logistical reality. We don't have the ability to respond to all of them. And unless, you know, someone wants to make a hefty donation, we can get a secretary and then they can read them and respond.

[B]

But we haven't talked enough about looking for billionaire donors. We should.

[A]

We talked about it once, and then none of them, you know, they were all like, no, thanks. I've already got what I'm looking for. It's not this podcast.

[B]

One of the things that is really great. If I could actually just say a super thank you to everyone at the followhim podcast, to Hank and John, certainly, and to their entire amazing, incredible team. Having you on that podcast has brought us many, many, many listeners. Now, the. The true litners that have been with.

[A]

Us since we weren't able to pronounce.

[B]

Listener listeners right, there are lots of inside jokes that are made and that many of the litners really enjoy, or at least claim to enjoy. And for somebody that's new to. Takes just a little bit of time to get used to it, and then it's about six to seven years is.

[A]

What we used to say. It's an acquired taste. But it's an acquired taste the way benzene is an acquired taste. I don't know that. I don't know how you acquire it.

[B]

But it's kind of a hemlock flavor to it.

[A]

It's very heavily. It does taste like arsenic.

[B]

Anyway, so we are grateful and in this first three or four minutes we've lost all of those people.

[A]

Right. If you're wondering, we read emails from listeners, some of them, and then we jump into the question and some people don't care what anyone else thinks about anything and don't love their fellow man and don't ever want to laugh. And those people skip forward to a little bit later when we're talking about the main question or they stop listening entirely, which is what you've already done. I don't even know how you heard that last part.

[B]

That's exactly right. We call it the Rex's Elders Quorum President. That's when you start there. And we're looking to go back and to create that so you can just go. Right seven minutes in. Right to the meat of it. So Garrett, like I said, no pleasantries. Jumping straight into the emails.

[A]

Seven minutes in. Go.

[B]

My wife and I are currently serving a mission in Brazil. I am not including my missionary email because I'm not requesting access to the premium content. Well, you know what, you're getting it anyway. I'm going to send it to you anyway. Yes, this is like a U2 album. You're getting it no matter whether you like it or not.

[A]

It shows up on your apple.

[B]

I don't have time to listen to more than the free content at the current time. Anyway, I found your podcast a while back through a pop up I kept getting on a Facebook feed. I was hesitant to check it out at first because you never know if something like that is actually pro or anti lds.

[A]

Thank you Kyle, that's a good point.

[B]

I am happy I decided to try it because you guys are great and I have learned some very interesting insights. The reason I am writing is to let you know of a funny thing that happened in relation to your podcast. I am pretty tech illiterate and while listening to your podcast I inadvertently hit something that slowed it down to 3. 4 speed. I could not. I could not. Everyone listens to us on 3.3x speed.

[A]

Yeah, we have people. Most of the time when I meet people they're like oh you sound so much slower in person. I listen to you on 1.5 speed and like oh, so I sound like.

[B]

Alvin and the Chipmunks or the Micro Machine guy. Yeah, I could not figure out how to change it back and did not want to ask my wife. My go to whenever I have tech problems. So I resolved to just listen to it at that speed. I don't know if you're aware, but if you listen to it at 3/4 speed, you both sound totally drunk. What made it even funnier was that during this episode you were talking about making. Making a beer run.

[A]

I don't remember. I don't either. Yeah, that sounds not like us.

[B]

I think for a college football team, maybe it was the. Maybe it was the fight in the.

[A]

Football one where they, where the people were drunk in the stands. We were talking about that early BYU football.

[B]

Yes, yes. The 1897 season, I believe. Anyway, big fan. I hope you will still be putting together tours in a couple of years when we return home so my wife and I can join you. Oh, that's an idea. Instead of free premium content for missionaries, how about discounted tours for returned missionaries? Okay. Just kidding. But looking forward for sure. Richard.

[A]

Well, with the number of people that are claiming that they're in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission just to try to get most favored nation trading status, the reality is the numbers that would claim that would be legion.

[B]

That's really funny. Yes, that is good. I do love. We still get missionary emails from people that actually legitimately claim to be in that mission. And I believe it. My favorite though were emails when people talk about how close they are or there's somehow connection to that mission.

[A]

We had someone who emailed for access for his daughter and said that she's serving in the Wichita, Kansas part of the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission. So if you're wondering again if you're a new listener, we have, we have premium content that was created because there were, there were some very kind people wanted to donate to the podcast. And rather than just have them donate to keep us running and not get anything, we said, well, let's create another podcast that they get because they're donating. And so that's what the premium content is. And we give it away free to any serving missionary. And so we have a lot of people email saying, hey, can you give, you know, access to the drive to my missionary? Because most missionaries can't access any apps, right? So they. So. But they can access a Google Drive. So we put them all on a Google Drive so that the missionaries can use their, their email, their missionary email to access them. Access them. Yeah.

[B]

And we've now maxed out a Google Drive, so now we've created multiple Google Drives.

[A]

We have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of missionaries that are listening that are in the drive. They're not listening but this is.

[B]

Oh, no one's listening, Garrett. We have close to 2% of all missionaries now.

[A]

Well which is you know I pretty cool when we could get that number to 70%. That's what we're that's what we're trying to get at.

[B]

This next email comes to us from from Sasha. I just finished listening to Doctrine Covenants Section three Part two and was excited it was Thursday to get to find out what happened. Cliffhanger might be a bit extreme, but fitting. I love the wind up and setting the stage was compelling and helped me understand the impact of Doctrine Covenants Section 3 in such a deeper way. You gave it justice by breaking it into two parts. I found myself crying feeling such gratitude for the man on the stagecoach and the sorrow for Martin sitting on the fence. Why that that is true. The way that you the way that it's described of him just sitting there. Just the gut wrenching feeling that that must have been. That was. Anyway, I agree it was very possible one of the three knee fights as I as I read a book of other miraculous inexplicable accounts. They always seem as they are in a hurry. I guess it's because they only have the entire world to take care of. I then found myself laughing almost to tears with the full pahoran comment. Such a perfect reference. I was then crying tears of empathy, imagining the depth of sorrow and loss Joseph fellow felt and how his family supported him and shared in his grief. And to the extent that they could, it was refreshing to remind to be reminded that Joseph didn't have the understanding that we do because he hadn't learned it yet. I was then crying tears of gratitude to Joseph for his fortitude which caused me to think of the anti's claims about Joseph making all of this up. No one would endure and spend an entire day crying like an infant on something they made up. They are such uneducated people in the dark, determined to live in the dark like cockroaches because the light would force them to change direction. Anyone who has ever experienced the smallest portion of loss and despair can relate to Joseph and not sleeping and the anguish of if I only had done X but at the time didn't know any other way. I'm grateful for the loving and merciful Father who always who allows us to learn these painful lessons and experience his love. Thank you for the hours of research you put in to helping us lit nurse on top of full time work, family callings and personal life. We don't do our callings very well though. Sasha, that's important, frankly.

[A]

Yeah, that's, you know, and we're not good fathers.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a terrible employee. Jake and Rick are like, yeah, no question.

[A]

Podcast is all consuming. This is, this is what we do. And look how badly we do it. Would you hire us?

[B]

Yeah, I, I don't know how you make time for it all. Thank you, Sasha. Thank you, Sasha. That's very.

[A]

Sasha, that's very kind. I, I, I, I want to use your email about, you know, the, the difficulty and the suffering as maybe a jumping off point to read another email. Now, I, I need to state this is probably going to be a little bit more somber than what people are used to, frankly. This is the kind of email that I shouldn't try to answer because there aren't good answers. And yet, for whatever reason, I keep being brought back to this email. This is from Loretta. The subject that she sends is miscarriages. Anything helps. Dear Dr. Dirk Mott and Dr. Leduc, I am desperate for answers. And then she makes a great joke. Actually, to start off, I have to be, if I'm turning to you two, we are essentially the, you know, the snake oil salesman of answers. And that's why. But then she brings it back. She says, in all seriousness, though I've exhausted my ability to look up answers to this particular point of doctrine, I've never had scriptures, both the standard works and general conference talks, fail me so entirely. Is there anything in historical documents about miscarriage or stillbirth, particularly about where those spirits end up? I had my third miscarriage on Sunday, July 21, 2024. The grief has compounded with each loss, and Sundays are excruciating now. There's been no relief offered. It took a month of nagging my bishop at the time to get him to meet with me and my husband. And after bluntly stating that if there was no heartbeat, the spirit was never there, he told don't get hung up on it. Our ward split soon after, and he never followed up. It took another couple of weeks to meet with the stake president, who reached out after I was presumptive enough to try sending a letter to the First Presidency, who, while a lot kinder than the bishop, only concluded that for whatever reason, God hasn't revealed what happens to children who die before birth. There are no answers. Be easier to endure this trial if I had less of a testimony. I'm confident that none of my children ended up in hell. I'm certain that God knows where they went, but the heavens are silent and it's Been agony to go through each day not knowing where my children are or why that information is being withheld. It's especially hard hearing sermons on the glorious resurrection when I don't get that promise for half of the children I've carried. How can I not be hung up on this when it deals with the fate of my eternal family? Is there anything you can offer as church historians, any hint of a promise that the children I've lost can be mine in the hereafter? Thank you for your time, Loretta. Well, like I said, Loretta, I probably should not have read this email. There are many painful parts of this mortal existence, and I am not going to presume that I have the ability to in any way assuage your suffering, because I probably don't. This is a very personal question because my own wife, Angie, had three miscarriages of her own, several of them fairly late, that required, you know, medical intervention. And so this is not the first time that I've looked up to see if there was any more revealed on what happens when babies are miscarried. And even though it was years ago, I already knew what the answer was because I had already looked it up for myself when I was in a similar place. I don't presume that it was the same as yours because I wasn't carrying the child. My wife was. And she was in a very difficult place. So please don't mistake me for thinking that I know how it feels. I know that I don't know how it feels. I can only express my sympathy and understanding through the difficult time it was for my wife. And I have been there for the talks in church that trigger. And I have been there for the late night moments of grief that wash over you. And I have also asked God why? And even worse, when your job is to find answers, when the entirety of what you do is to compile the various things that have been said and to present a cohesive argument, when you don't have the ability to do that, you feel even more alone. And so the reason why I said we probably shouldn't answer that question, or I shouldn't have is what I don't have is the ability to offer you an answer that comes from prophetic utterance. And that's what you desperately want. In fact, part of your pain is that you feel like the heavens are silent. I wish, I desperately wish for my own wife that there had been more revealed on this topic and there just hasn't been. And when we wonder why hasn't more been revealed? Well, not knowing why it hasn't been revealed. I don't know what the answer to that would be either. Early on in my spiritual journey in life, at least for me personally, and this is only for me, so I can't extrapolate out any further than this. I had questions that I felt like there were not good answers to. One of them comes from the fact that I have a brother who was born mentally handicapped. I know that there are many people listening who have friends, relatives, siblings that deal with mental disabilities and then with physical disabilities. And it was excruciating for me because I don't have to tell a whole lot of people this, but people aren't very kind to mentally handicapped children, or at least children aren't kind to them. My brother was mentally handicapped enough that he spoke with a slurred speech. He had roughly a third grade level of iq, and so he. And he, you know, he walked with a bit of a limp, so he was somewhat physically impaired, but primarily it was mental. And the mockery that he endured all throughout his grade school and high school is. It was incredible to me. The level of just thoughtless comments, the level of just absolute inhumanity. I remember one time I was at a football game in our city park. It was a football game for my younger brother before it was in high school. And there were kids taunting my brother with cerebral palsy and hitting him with a stick. And he was trying to tell them, come on guys, stop. And I see this from afar, so I start booking over there and I see the mom of these two kids. And when I say kids, I mean they were teenagers. And I see her see what they're doing to a mentally handicapped kid. And so my thought is, oh, she's going to intervene before I get there and have to kill her children. Because that's, you know, the. Maybe I had not yet developed enough Christ like attributes, let's put it that way. And as I get close enough, I can hear everything she's saying. She turns around and she says to him, I thought I told you guys to stop playing with the stick. She sees him hitting a mentally handicapped kid with it and taunting him. And her response was, well, I told you not to pick the stick up. So I have had many mighty wrestlings in the spirit trying to find an answer. And I know, look, I know the answers that people give. I get it. Oh, you know, you know, he. He was born that way so that, you know, he. He could teach us all something else. Well, frankly, I don't want to be taught that way. I Don't think the abject suffering of someone else is the best way for me to learn. God is God. Why can't he teach me in a way that's not that? Oh, he was born that way because, you know, he was such a noble spirit in the premortal life that that way he couldn't be tempted. Okay, fair enough. That gives some comfort in the abstract. It doesn't stop people treating him like garbage his whole life. I remember when I was 17 years old, going into his room and him saying to me, garrett, why did I have to be born? And used the term that was current at the time. Mentally, why did I have to be born mentally? When you talk about wanting to have an answer, I had none. And like I said, my brother was handicapped. He was. He was slightly handicapped enough that he couldn't. He couldn't do the things that everyone else could do, but he wasn't handicapped enough to the point where he didn't want to do those things. So what he wanted to do was drive a car. What he wanted to do was go to college. What he wanted to do was get married. He wanted. He had the same desires that we all have, but couldn't actually have those because he was too handicapped. And when he asked me that question, I'll tell you what, it cut me through the soul because any answer you give to that question is just not satisfying. Okay? So he was so noble and so great in the premortal life that he had to come here and suffer his whole life. There wasn't another way of protecting him from his noble and greatness. I know I'm sounding a little bit flippant, but I was a 17 year old and those answers weren't satisfactory to me. And when you look, there's not a whole lot of definitive answers. Of course I believe that my brother will rise in the glorious resurrection and he will be perfected, and that that day will come, and at that point there will be a suffering that has an end. But I still don't understand why it has to be so terrible in this life. I don't have an explanation for it. Now, I know that you've already read all of the things that there is on it, so there's really nothing I could say that would, you know, I mean, perhaps maybe for our listeners, we should, you know, read what the Church has said on it. I know this isn't for you, Loretta, but for the other people who may wonder, maybe we should read what the Church's handbook has to say about it. That way we can at least start off on that same page in the church's handbook. It says, children who die before birth, stillborn or miscarried children. Parents who experience the death of an unborn child suffer grief and loss. Leaders, family members and ministering brothers and sisters offer emotional and spiritual support. Parents may decide whether to hold memorial or graveside services. Parents may record information about the childandfamilysearch.org instructions are provided on the website. Temple ordinances are not needed or performed for children who die before birth. This does not deny the possibility that these children may be part of the family. In the eternities, parents are encouraged to trust the Lord and seek his comfort. So on this incredibly difficult and personal topic with so much suffering surrounding it, there isn't a definitive answer. It's not because it's not something that has been contemplated. It certainly has been in the early Christian church. Most of the early Christian fathers believe that, so they believe in creation ex nihilo, right? So they believe that your soul, which they would call it your soul and not your spirit, that your soul didn't exist until you were created at birth. And most early Christian fathers believed that that took place at the moment of conception. So that somehow at conception, you know, you know, people like Tertullian, one of the early Christian fathers, he's going to say, we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul begins from conception, life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does. So many of these early Christian fathers believed that the creation of a human is done at the exact same time as that soul was created. So the very act, essentially, you can't create a human that doesn't have a soul, or at least God doesn't create humans without souls. And so the moment conception happened, there had to be a soul also created. Now, of course, in their theology, souls are being created out of nothing. You didn't exist before that moment. Clement of Alexandria said something, you know, even more detailed, right? That, that the embryo is a living thing for the soul entering into the womb after it has been, by cleansing, prepared for conception, and introduced by one of the angels who preside over generation and knows the time for conception. There is multiple early Christian fathers that make this argument. And so most Christian traditions, even after the Protestant Reformation, maintained this idea that along with the ex nihilo, in other words, creation out of nothing of a human person, that part of that creation is their soul. And that's why they believe that that happened at conception. Now, there are other Christian Groups, they are not as, they are not as broad. They argued that in fact, it happened sometime during the pregnancy. And there are even others that argue that it didn't happen until birth, that finally at birth, that's when the soul was created and became part of that. Now, there are some that. Thomas, Aquinas, St. Augustine, they argued that the soul entered the body later, 40 days, 80 days later. But it's not a settled doctrine, or at least it's not a universally accepted doctrine even inside of Christianity proper. And these are Christian faith traditions that believe that that soul didn't exist before it was created. And so the question that they have is one of the fact that this soul didn't even exist. So what happens when there's a termination of the pregnancy early on? So I'm sure you're aware that again, because you've, you've spent some time researching this, that Brigham Young presented this kind of midway view, that he believed that the soul entered the body at the point that a mother could, could feel movement or some, something to that regard, it's in the, in the Journal of Discourses. So that that is part of at least where one thing is right. This is our home, built expressly for us by our Father of our spirits, who is the father, maker, framer, and producer of these mortal bodies that we now inherit and which go back to Mother Earth. When the spirit leaves them, they are lifeless. When the mother feels life come to her infant, it is the spirit entering the body preparatory to the mortal existence. But suppose an accident occurs and a spirit has to leave this body prematurely, what then? All the physician says is that it's a stillbirth and that's all that they know about it. But whether the spirit remains in the body a minute, an hour, a day, a year, or lives there until the body has reached a good old age, it is certain that the time will come when they will be separated and the body will return to Mother Earth, there to sleep upon that mother's bosom. That is all there is about death. And he goes on to talk about someone else who has died. You know, Brother Thomas Williams is no more dead than he was a week ago. His clay is simply dead. And inasmuch as he has honored this tabernacle that lies before us, it will take a sleep in the dust to come forth immortal in the day of the first resurrection. This will be the case with all of us if we honor our being here. One thing I can add that I'm fairly certain you, you haven't read before comes from Brigham Young again, but this time much earlier. That was in 1874 that he said that in an earlier sermon, he repeats something very similar about the. The movement of. Of a child inside of the mother in this sermon from 1859, that. That was never published. And so this is from the shorthand notes that were taken from that sermon. Brigham Young again makes this reference. So it's clearly something that he believes. He says that eternal life is the greatest gift that can be bestowed upon the children of men. Now, when you consider this, you see that the disposition, the will, the spirit that is as pure as an angel when it came from the heavens and enters the tabernacle, you've been told at what time it enters the tabernacle, and if any of you want to be told again, it is so apparently, he said this more than once. It is when the mother feels life that the Spirit enters into that tabernacle, that it is begotten by the flesh, that spirit from the eternal worlds enters it and forgets all its formerly new, and it descends as Jesus, below all things to ascend above all things. There is the contrast of beings that are crowned with crowns and glory and eternal lives. So clearly that is something that Brigham Young has taught multiple times that it's not at conception, but he believes that the Spirit is entering. The Spirit's entering the body at the time that the mother can feel life. And of course, that's going to be different for all kinds of people. What happens? Right. I mean, that's the great question. And as I said from the outset, it's something that has not yet been revealed. One of the things that becomes very apparent when studying the life of the prophet Joseph Smith is that just because he was the prophet doesn't mean that he had all of his questions answered when he wanted them answered. You know, famously, Joseph prays his entire life, basically from the time Joseph found out that the second coming isn't going to be something that happens thousands of years in the future, but something that's going to happen soon. Joseph prays and prays and prays to know when the second coming is going to happen. He's the prophet of the restoration. He. He's literally the seer of. Of this dispensation of the fullness of times. He knows more about the celestial kingdom, about our purpose in this life. He's brought forth these scriptures, and the response from God is to not answer him. And then eventually, as you know from the Doctrine and Covenants, eventually the Lord actually says to him, stop asking me about this, I'm sure that was not terribly satisfying to Joseph. It was clearly something he desperately cared about, and yet he didn't receive an answer. I know I use this example a lot, and at the risk of overuse, I'll just use it again. Because when you're not very good at what you do, you just keep doing it over and over. Joseph's older brother, Alvin, dies almost immediately after Moroni visits Joseph. Moroni appears and, you know, just a few weeks later, Alvin is going to die. And it's a huge tragedy. The family is just devastated by it. Plus, Alvin was one of their primary means of financial success. And now his labor was gone and things were looking even more bleak. Well, when Joseph receives Doctrine and covenant, section 76, the Lord tells him in that vision, the great vision of how you go to the celestial kingdom. Who's in the celestial kingdom? Who's in the terrestrial kingdom? Who's in the terrestrial kingdom? One of the things that Joseph is told is that to go to the celestial kingdom, you have to be baptized into the church of the firstborn. Well, what does that mean? It means you are not going to the celestial kingdom unless you are baptized as a member of the church. Well, Alvin died before there was a church. I don't know how often Joseph wondered and stewed about that, but I know that in 1836, four years after his vision of the celestial kingdom, and even. Even longer, you know, 13 years after his brother died, he sees a vision of the celestial kingdom. And when he sees Alvin in the celestial kingdom, his response tells you all you need to know about what Joseph thought about where his brother was. You and I hear that Alvin's in the celestial kingdom, and we go, of course he is. He was awesome. He believed in Joseph's visions. Of course, God's not going to keep him out of the celestial kingdom because he died early. That's not what Joseph knew. Joseph had a revelation from God that said, you can't go to the celestial kingdom unless you've been baptized. Well, if you ask Joseph Smith in 1835, is Alvin going to the celestial kingdom? Joseph would have been probably quite sorrowful. He would have been quoting scripture, telling you, no, the Lord said you had to be baptized in order to go to the celestial kingdom. He would have been earnest. He would have been quoting scripture, and he would have been wrong. You can't expect a prophet to know things before they know them. Sometimes we want our. We. We want to will our prophets into somehow receiving revelation that God is not deemed fit to reveal without Knowing why God hasn't deemed fit to reveal it, how in the world could I possibly judge whether or not he should have revealed it? I don't know any of the circumstances. And yet when you're suffering, you desperately want to know. I know what that feels like to not ever get a satisfactory answer to my suffering. Even with Joseph learning that his brother was in the celestial kingdom, one could easily ask, well, why did God wait? Why did God wait for 13 years to comfort Joseph Smith on that? We're not talking about, you know, someone who's just not really reading his scriptures once in a while. He's literally producing scripture during that time period. He is the prophet and seer of the restoration and one of the things that causes him the most pain. For whatever reason, God doesn't give him an answer right away. Even that answer didn't explain how Joseph was told. Alvin and everyone else who would have gone accepted the gospel will go to the celestial kingdom even if they weren't able to be baptized and doesn't provide any explanation for how. And so now, if you're Joseph in 1836, you have to believe an absolute contradiction, what appears to be a contradiction. You have a revelation from God that says you cannot go to the celestial kingdom unless you're baptized. And you have a revelation from God that says even if you're not baptized, you can go to the celestial kingdom. They appear to be incredibly contradictory. And that contradiction, that lack of knowledge, of course, is going to cause more pain. I don't know why God didn't reveal baptisms for the dead until 1840. At the same time, it was a super controversial doctrine. Many people leave the church over the idea of baptisms for the dead. And you can tell how controversial that doctrine is because after Joseph is murdered, all of the churches that break away, all of the Rigdonite, Josephite, Hedricite, every ite that you can name, all of those break off. Churches immediately threw aside baptism for the dead as a false doctrine or a speculative doctrine or a doctrine that it wasn't something they were going to follow. Why? Well, because no one wanted to believe it. Because the entire Christian world was premised upon the fact that you had to accept Jesus in this life to be saved. And Joseph had now received revelation that said, accept no, everyone can be saved, Everyone that we have. That knowledge doesn't in any way mitigate the suffering that Joseph had until he got that knowledge. Why didn't God tell him in 1823, while the whole house was mourning and crying over the death of Alvin. Why didn't God just, he's already sent an angel to Joseph. Why doesn't he just send an angel then and say, joseph, don't worry about it. I know that Presbyterian minister just told you that Alvin's going to burn in hell, but he's not. By the way, hell doesn't exist. I mean, there are lots of questions we can ask about why we don't have knowledge. Let me give you another example from Joseph Smith. In December of 1833, Joseph began receiving the reports of the horrific violence that took place in Zion. In July of 1833, W.W. phelps published an article in his newspaper in Missouri, which was very much a slave state, inviting free black members of the church to move to Zion there in Jackson county and appeared to be at least helping them understand what the anti black laws were in Missouri as a means of helping them avoid running into those laws. This is going to come as a surprise that the pro slavery Missourians became enraged. They immediately formed a mob and demanded that the Saints leave the county. All of their property, all of their possessions. They've lived there for over two years and leave the county without any remuneration at all. When the, when they balk, when the Saints balk and say, we can't do that, we'd have to, you know, we bought this property, we own it, they begin to tar and feather and beat several of the members. They tear the print shop down, they rifle through and steal a bunch of the members stuff. And when the members say, okay, okay, okay, we'll leave. Well, as 1833 winds on, the Missourians decide that the Mormons aren't leaving fast enough. Well, they said they were going to leave it. You know, this is going to become a common theme for Latter Day Saints actually, that even when we say we're leaving, apparently that's not fast enough. And so the mob then attacks Latter Day Saint settlements. And it is, it's so violent, the attack, that not only are multiple people wounded, there are people who die. When Joseph receives these reports.

[B]

How do.

[A]

You think he feels? If you think about the fact that the only reason why anyone is in Missouri is because he, as a prophet of God, received a revelation commanding people to go settle in Missouri. The people that died there at the hands of a mob died not because they were not doing what the Prophet wanted them to do, not because they just, oh, if only they weren't as big as sinners, this wouldn't have been a problem. They die literally because they followed the Prophet. They were there in Missouri Because God commanded them to go to Missouri, which is frankly the only reason anyone is ever in Missouri. But the fact that they were there is the reason why they are killed. And that is a very difficult thing for the prophet Joseph Smith, because it means that maybe if we hadn't sent people there into the mob, maybe this wouldn't have happened. And so Joseph writes a letter to the Saints. He writes a letter to the Saints in December of 1833. And it's a very telling letter that Joseph finds himself in the same place that many of us find ourselves all throughout this mortal life, which is often truly a veil of tears. He writes that, you know, he's heard about all those that have been wounded and suffered. We are thankful to learn that no more were slain. And our daily prayers are this, that the Lord will not suffer his saints who've gone up to his holy land to keep his commandments, to stain his holy mountain with their blood. I cannot learn from any communication by the Spirit to me that Zion has forfeited her claim to a celestial crown notwithstanding the Lord has caused her to be thus afflicted. So here, Joseph, is the question, how could these people suffer for this God? They are trying to do what you want them to do. Joseph says, I've always expected that Zion would suffer sore affliction from what I could learn from the commandments which have been given. But I would remind you of a certain clause in one which says that after much tribulation he underlines, much cometh the blessing by this and others also one received of late. I know that Zion in the own due time of the Lord will be redeemed. But how many will be the days of her purification, tribulation, and affliction the Lord has kept hid from my eyes? And when I inquire concerning this subject, the voice of the Lord is, be still and know that I am God. All those who suffer for my name shall reign with me. And he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again. Now there are two things of which I am ignorant and the Lord will not show me, perhaps for a wise purpose in himself. Why has God suffered so great a calamity to come upon Zion? And by what means will he return her back to her inheritance with songs of everlasting joy upon her head? These two things are in part kept back, and they are not plainly shown to me. There are some things that are plainly manifest that have incurred the displeasure of the Almighty. But when I contemplate upon all of the things that have been Manifested. I'm sensible that I ought not to murmur, and I do not murmur only in this, that those who are innocent are compelled to suffer for the iniquities of the guilty. And I cannot account for this. Joseph Smith begs the Lord to tell him why these innocent people are suffering. Why have you allowed the Zion that you proclaimed to be polluted by these mobocratic murderers? And even though he's Joseph Smith, even though he's the prophet of the Restoration, even though we owe our entire theology to the revelations he received, the answer he gets is, be still and know that I am God. He goes on to say, notwithstanding this, it is with great difficulty that I can restrain my feelings when I know that you, my brethren, with whom I have had so many happy hours, sitting, as it were, in the heavenly places of Christ Jesus, and also in having the witness which I feel and even have felt of the purity of your motives, that you are cast out and are as strangers and pilgrims on the earth, exposed to hunger and cold and nakedness and peril and sword. I say that when I contemplate this, it is with difficulty that I can keep from complaining and murmuring against this dispensation. But I am sensible that this is not right. Joseph Smith, at this point in his life, has suffered some pretty inexplicable losses. By December of 1833, there have been many deaths in his household from babies that came into it, his firstborn child, who may actually have been stillborn. We have two different accounts of that. And one of the accounts from a midwife is that that first child was not actually born alive, although the other account from Lucy Mack is that it died immediately after birth. But then Emma gives birth to twins when they move to Kirtland, and both of them immediately die. And then they adopt the Murdoch twins. And the sickness that Joseph Murdoch has is exacerbated by the tumult of the tarring and feathering and attempted murder of Joseph Smith as they attempt to shove poison down his throat and that child dies. If I were Joseph Smith, I would say, what more do you want from me? I've already lost everything. The only thing I want is my kids. That's it. I've already lost my ability to ever be respected. I've already lost my wealth and family. I've already. Just at least let me have my babies. God didn't. So when he says that, it is with difficulty that I can keep from complaining and murmuring. I don't think he's just talking out of the side of his mouth. He goes on to say, but I am sensible that this is not right. May God grant that notwithstanding your great afflictions and sufferings, that there may not be anything to separate us from the love of Christ. When we learn of your sufferings, it awakens every sympathy in our hearts. It weighs us down. We cannot refrain from tears, and yet we are not able to realize, only impart your sufferings. I often hear the brethren saying that they wish they were there with you, that they might be able to bear a part of your sufferings. And I myself should have been with you had not God prevented it in the order of his providence, that the yoke of affliction might be less grievous upon you. He goes on to say that God revealed to him that had he been there they would have tortured the saints even more in Missouri. And he says, therefore God hath dealt mercifully with us. Oh brethren, let us be thankful that all is well with us and that we are yet alive and that peradventure God hath laid up in store great good for us in this generation and grant that we may yet glorify his name. I feel thankful that there have no more denied the faith. I pray God in the name of Jesus, that you may all be kept in the faith unto the end. Let your sufferings be what they may. It is better that you should die in the eyes of God than you should give up the land of Zion and the inheritance which you've purchased. So he goes on in this same letter to cite the parable of the importunate widow asking for justice to weary the Lord. But that doesn't mean that Joseph Smith received those answers. So it's kind of a failure of a podcast, honestly, because what you want I don't have the ability to give. And the reason I don't have the ability to give it is because the prophets past and present have not had it revealed to them. Just like Joseph didn't have the answers to the suffering in Missouri revealed to him. Just like he didn't have the thing he wanted most revealed to him in answer to the second coming of the Lord. I don't know why God keeps some knowledge back. I don't know. There's a lot of answers that I desperately wish I could get and I don't get them. I will say this by way of comfort, though it's cold comfort. I know one of the things that buoys me up in the face of inexplicable suffering. The unfairness of both the events of this life and the not knowing that we experience. As Joseph Smith stated categorically, definitively in a sermon that he gives in Nauvoo in 1843, all of your losses will be made up to you in the Resurrection. All of them. I don't know how things work out in the next life, but I know that they do because God, through his prophet, says that they will. Now that is cold comfort, because what I want is for my suffering to end now. But even if I don't get any of my suffering taken away now, there will come a time when that suffering is at an end. And however your Heavenly Father makes up to you these horrific losses that you have had, he says that he will. And when you're going through the suffering, you say, there's no way to make this up to me. And I feel that. And I have felt that. And there are times I still feel that there isn't a way to make it up. And that's where our faith in the incredible power of the atonement of Jesus Christ comes in. I have no idea how God is going to make it right for me, for my three miscarried children, for my wife, for my brother's suffering that he has had as a mentally handicapped person, that my sister in law has had and continues to have because my youngest brother, her husband died a ridiculously untimely and young death. And there's just suffering everywhere. How could there possibly be a way of making up that lost time? I don't have an answer. But I can promise you, with all of the testimony that I have, whatever comes after this life, you are going to have a fullness of joy. There will not be a oh no, I've been left out because I didn't get this. Somehow. Every tear is dried, every heart aching, wrenching, painful thing that we have experienced is taken from us and we have a perfect joy. I await the day. I have got some pains that I am willing and ready to give up. And so I take that statement by Joseph very seriously. All of my losses are going to be made up to me, provided you continue faithful. And then he says, by the vision of the Almighty, I have seen it. Joseph saw that things would be made right. He saw it. I know that Joseph saw Jesus. I know that he saw God. And because I know that he saw Jesus is how I know that things are actually going to be made right. I mourn with you. I am sorry that I can't give you an adequate answer. I don't have. I don't have the ability to do any better. But I know that the Lord Jesus Christ will somehow fix this all in the end, and it will be a fullness of joy. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.